:00:37. > :00:41.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:44.Ed Balls has gone socialist and fiscal Conservative in one speech.
:00:45. > :00:49.He promises to balance the biggest bit of the budget. And to bring back
:00:50. > :00:53.the 50p top tax rate. Political masterstroke, or a return to old
:00:54. > :00:56.Labour? If you go to work by public
:00:57. > :01:00.transport, chances are the price of your ticket has just gone up -
:01:01. > :01:03.again. We'll speak to Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin. He's
:01:04. > :01:07.our Sunday Interview. And it's been another wet week
:01:08. > :01:12.across much of the UK, but what s the outlook according to this man?
:01:13. > :01:21.In the Southeast: Government money recent years by party veterans like
:01:22. > :01:23.In the Southeast: Government money for better rural broadband, but what
:01:24. > :01:42.about the And with me - as always - the
:01:43. > :01:45.political panel so fresh-faced, entertaining and downright popular
:01:46. > :01:48.they make Justin Bieber look like a boring old has-been just desperate
:01:49. > :01:51.to get your attention. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, and
:01:52. > :02:04.they'll be tweeting quicker than a yellow Lamborghini racing down Miami
:02:05. > :02:11.Beach. Being political nerds, they have no idea what I'm talking about.
:02:12. > :02:15.Ed Balls sprung a surprise on us all yesterday. We kinda thought Labour
:02:16. > :02:19.would head for the election with a return to the 50p top rate of tax.
:02:20. > :02:22.But we didn't think he'd do it now. He did! The polls say it's popular,
:02:23. > :02:26.Labour activists now have a spring in their step. The Tories say it's a
:02:27. > :02:29.return to the bad old days of the '70s, and bosses now think Labour is
:02:30. > :02:31.anti-business. Here's the Shadow Chancellor speaking earlier this
:02:32. > :02:34.morning. I was part of a Government which did very many things to open
:02:35. > :02:36.up markets, to make the Bank of England independent, to work closely
:02:37. > :02:39.with business, but the reality is we are in very difficult circumstances
:02:40. > :02:41.and because if I'm honest you, George Osborne's failure in the last
:02:42. > :02:45.few years, those difficult circumstances will last into the
:02:46. > :02:55.next Parliament. Business people have said to me they want to get the
:02:56. > :03:01.deficit down, of course they do But to cut the top rate... It is foolish
:03:02. > :03:04.and feeds resentment I want to do the opposite and say look,
:03:05. > :03:09.pro-business, pro investment, pro market, but pro fairness. Let's get
:03:10. > :03:16.this deficit down in a fairway and make the reforms to make our economy
:03:17. > :03:22.work for the long term. What are the political implications of Labour now
:03:23. > :03:26.in favour of a 50%, in practise 352% top rate of tax? One of the
:03:27. > :03:30.political implications I don't think exist is that they'll win new
:03:31. > :03:34.voters. I'm not sure many people out there would think, I would love to
:03:35. > :03:41.vote for Ed Miliband but I'm not sure if he wants to tax rich people
:03:42. > :03:47.enough. It will con Dale their existing vote but I don't think it
:03:48. > :03:52.is the kind of, in the 1990s we talked about triangulation, moving
:03:53. > :03:55.beyond your core vote, I don't think it is a policy like that. If there
:03:56. > :03:59.has been a policy like that this year, this month, it has been the
:04:00. > :04:03.Tories' move on minimum wage. I thought Labour would come back with
:04:04. > :04:09.their own version, a centre-right policy, and instead they have done
:04:10. > :04:12.this. I think we talk about the 35% strategy that Labour supposed will
:04:13. > :04:18.have, I think it is a policy in that direction rather than the thing Tony
:04:19. > :04:26.Blair or Gordon Brown would have done. Where he was not clear is on
:04:27. > :04:32.how much it would raise. We know the sum in the grand scheme of things
:04:33. > :04:39.isn't much, the bedroom tax was about sending a message. What we are
:04:40. > :04:43.going to see is George Osborne and Ed Balls lock as they try to push
:04:44. > :04:52.the other one into saying things that are unpopular. The Tories,
:04:53. > :04:57.?150,000 a year, that's exactly where Ed Balls want them to be. All
:04:58. > :05:02.three main parties have roughly the same plan, to run a current budget
:05:03. > :05:06.surplus by the end of the next Parliament. George Osborne said ?12
:05:07. > :05:11.billion of welfare cuts, hasn't said how he is going to do it. Ed Balls
:05:12. > :05:16.is giving an idea that he is going to restore this 50 persons rate The
:05:17. > :05:21.contribution of that will be deminimus. It is not much, but what
:05:22. > :05:26.does it say about your values. Because it is that package, it is
:05:27. > :05:29.cleverer than people think. Where the challenge is is the question
:05:30. > :05:34.that Peter Mandelson posed at the last election, which is can the
:05:35. > :05:38.Labour Party win a general election if it doesn't have business on its
:05:39. > :05:42.side? That's the big challenge and that's the question looking
:05:43. > :05:47.difficult for them this morning Does it matter if Labour has
:05:48. > :05:52.business on its side. I thought the most fascinating thing about this
:05:53. > :05:56.announcement is it came from the guy mindful of business support, Ed
:05:57. > :06:01.Balls. When in opposition and when a Minister and as a shadow as a
:06:02. > :06:07.result, he's been far more conscious than Ed Miliband about the need not
:06:08. > :06:11.to alienate the CB Bill. In the run-up of an election. This is a
:06:12. > :06:16.measure of Ed Miliband's strength in the Labour Party, that his view of
:06:17. > :06:21.things can prevail so easily over a guy who for the last 15 years has
:06:22. > :06:27.taken a different view. Eight out of ten businesses according to the CBI
:06:28. > :06:33.don't want us to leave business Business is in a bit of a cleft
:06:34. > :06:36.stick. Ed Miliband would like to see businesses squealing, and Ed Balls
:06:37. > :06:40.is clearly not so comfortable on that one. There's a difference on
:06:41. > :06:44.that. Mind you, they were squealing this morning from Davos. They
:06:45. > :06:50.probably had hangovers as well. The other thing they would say is this
:06:51. > :06:54.is not like Ed Balls thinks that 50p is the optimal rate forever, it what
:06:55. > :06:59.go eventually. Isn't that what politicians said when income tax was
:07:00. > :07:04.introduced? Yeah, in '97 Labour regarded 40 persons as the rate
:07:05. > :07:09.where it would stay. It's been a bad week for the Lib
:07:10. > :07:12.Dems. Again. Actually, it's been one of the worst weeks yet for Nick
:07:13. > :07:15.Clegg and his party in recent memory, as they've gone from talking
:07:16. > :07:18.confidently about their role in Government to facing a storm of
:07:19. > :07:21.criticism over claims of inappropriate sexual behaviour by a
:07:22. > :07:25.Lib Dem peer, Chris Rennard, and a Lib Dem MP, Mike Hancock. Here's
:07:26. > :07:30.Giles with the story of the week. A challenge to Nick Clegg's authority
:07:31. > :07:35.as he face as growing row over the Liberal Democrat... I want everyone
:07:36. > :07:38.to be treated with respect by the Liberal Democrats. We are expecting
:07:39. > :07:46.him to show moral leadership on our behalf. A good man has been publicly
:07:47. > :07:50.destroyed by the media with the apparent support of Nick Clegg. I
:07:51. > :07:56.would like Nick Clegg to show leadership and say, this has got to
:07:57. > :08:02.stop. When Nick Clegg woke up on Monday morning he knew he was in
:08:03. > :08:08.trouble, staring down the barrel of a stand justify with Lord Rennard
:08:09. > :08:13.over allegations that the peer had inappropriately touched a number of
:08:14. > :08:18.women. Chris Rennard thought he was cleared. Nick Clegg wanted more I
:08:19. > :08:21.said if he doesn't apologise, he should withdraw from the House of
:08:22. > :08:30.Lords. If he does that today, what do you do then? I hope he doesn t. I
:08:31. > :08:34.think no apology, no whip. 2014 was starting badly for the Liberal
:08:35. > :08:38.Democrats. Chris Rennard refused to apologise, saying you can't say
:08:39. > :08:43.sorry for something you haven't done. The and he was leaning towards
:08:44. > :08:47.legal action. Butch us friends better defending Pym and publicly.
:08:48. > :08:52.This is a good, decent man, who has been punished by the party, with the
:08:53. > :08:57.leadership of the party that seems to be showing scant regard for due
:08:58. > :09:03.process. But his accusers felt very differently. It is untenable for the
:09:04. > :09:07.Lib Dems to have a credible voice on qualities and women's issues in the
:09:08. > :09:13.future if Lord Rennard was allowed to be back on the Lib Dem benches in
:09:14. > :09:18.the House of Lords. Therein lay the problem that exposed the weaknesses
:09:19. > :09:25.of the Lib Dem leaders. The party's internal structures have all the
:09:26. > :09:28.simplicity of a circuit diagram for a supercomputer, exposing the
:09:29. > :09:33.complexity of who runs the Liberal Democrats? The simple question that
:09:34. > :09:38.arose of that was can the leader of the Lib Dems remove a Lib Dem peer?
:09:39. > :09:44.The simple answer is no. The Lib Dem whips in the Lords could do it but
:09:45. > :09:49.if enough Lib Dem peers disagreed, they could overrule it. Some
:09:50. > :09:53.long-stand ng friends of roar Rennard think he is either the
:09:54. > :09:56.innocent victim of a media witch-hunt or at the least due
:09:57. > :10:02.process has been ridden over rough shot by the leadership. Nobody ever
:10:03. > :10:06.did spot Lord Rennard as he didn't turn up to the Lords, will citing
:10:07. > :10:11.ill health. But issued a statement that ruled out an apology. He
:10:12. > :10:14.refused to do so and refused to comply with the outcome of that
:10:15. > :10:18.report, so there was no alternative but for the party to suspend his
:10:19. > :10:23.membership today. On Wednesday Nick Clegg met Lib Dem peers, not for a
:10:24. > :10:26.crunch decision, but to discuss the extraordinary prospect of legal
:10:27. > :10:29.action against the party by the man long credited with building its
:10:30. > :10:34.success. The situation was making the party look like a joke. One Tory
:10:35. > :10:37.MP said to one of my colleagues this morning, the funny thing about the
:10:38. > :10:42.Liberal Democrats, you managed to create a whole sex scandal without
:10:43. > :10:46.any sex. And we can laugh at ourselves but actually it is rather
:10:47. > :10:50.serious. And it got more serious, when an MP who had resigned the Lib
:10:51. > :10:55.Dem whip last year was expanded from the party over a report into
:10:56. > :11:00.allegations of serious and unwelcome sexual behaviour towards a
:11:01. > :11:04.constituent. All of this leaves the Lib Dems desperately wishing these
:11:05. > :11:10.sagas had been dealt with long ago and would now go away. Nick Clegg
:11:11. > :11:16.ended the week still party leader. Lord Rennard, once one of their most
:11:17. > :11:21.powerful players, ended the week, for now, no longer even in it.
:11:22. > :11:24.Giles on the Lib Dems' disastrous week. Now, as you doubtless already
:11:25. > :11:32.know, on Tuesday Lib Dem MPs will vote to choose a new deputy leader.
:11:33. > :11:35.You didn't know that? You do now. The job of Nick Clegg's number two
:11:36. > :11:38.is to speak with a genuine Lib Dem voice, untainted by the demands of
:11:39. > :11:42.coalition Government. At this point in the show we had expected to speak
:11:43. > :11:45.to all three candidates for the post, held in recent years by party
:11:46. > :11:53.veterans like Vince Cable and Simon Hughes. We thought it being quite a
:11:54. > :11:57.significant week for the party, they might have something to say. And
:11:58. > :12:03.here they are. Well that's their pictures. For various reasons, all
:12:04. > :12:06.three are now unavailable. Malcolm Bruce, he's reckoned to be the
:12:07. > :12:09.outsider. His office said he had a "family commitment". Gordon
:12:10. > :12:13.Birtwistle, the Burnley MP, was booked to appear but then told us,
:12:14. > :12:17."I was at an event last night with Lorely Burt" - she's one of the
:12:18. > :12:22.candidates - "and she told me it was off". And Lorely Burt herself, seen
:12:23. > :12:26.by many as the red hot favourite, told us: "Because of the Rennard
:12:27. > :12:33.thing we don't want to put ourselves in a position where we have to
:12:34. > :12:41.answer difficult questions." How refreshingly honest. Helen, how bad
:12:42. > :12:45.politically is all this for the Lib Dems? What I think is the tragic
:12:46. > :12:50.irony of the Lib Dems is they've been revealed as being too
:12:51. > :12:54.democratic. In the same way that their party conference embarrassed
:12:55. > :12:58.Nick Clegg by voting sings that he signed up to, and now everything has
:12:59. > :13:06.to be run past various sub-committees first. Is it
:13:07. > :13:17.democratic or chaotic? It is Byzantine. Mike Hancock was
:13:18. > :13:22.voluntarily suspended, and this week he was properly suspended. It was
:13:23. > :13:29.new information into the public domain that forced that. I'm already
:13:30. > :13:34.hearing Labour and Conservative Party musing that if it is a long
:13:35. > :13:37.Parliament, we will form a minority Government. It is a disaster for
:13:38. > :13:41.them. Voters like parties that reflect and are interested this
:13:42. > :13:46.their concerns. Parties that are self obsessed turn them off. The
:13:47. > :13:49.third party, if they carry on like this, they'll be the fifth party in
:13:50. > :13:54.the European elections, so they have got to draw a line under this. They
:13:55. > :13:59.do that, if they do, through mediation. As I understand it, Chris
:14:00. > :14:03.Rennard,s who has go devoted his entire life to the Liberal
:14:04. > :14:07.Democrats, and previously the Liberal Party, is keen to draw a
:14:08. > :14:11.line under this. He is up for mediation but he needs to know that
:14:12. > :14:15.the women that he has clearly invaded their personal space, that
:14:16. > :14:18.there wouldn't be a possible legal a action from them. The it is very
:14:19. > :14:23.difficult to see how you could resolve that. Except he is
:14:24. > :14:27.threatening through his friends these famous friends, to spill all
:14:28. > :14:31.the beans about all the party's sex secrets. Isn't the danger for the
:14:32. > :14:34.Lib Dems, this haunts them through to the European elections, where
:14:35. > :14:39.they'll get thumped in the European elections? They'll get destroyed in
:14:40. > :14:43.the European elections, which keeps it salient as a story over the
:14:44. > :14:48.summer. And it has implications for Nick Clegg's leadership. He's done a
:14:49. > :14:52.good job until now, perhaps better than David Cameron, of exercising
:14:53. > :14:55.authority over his party. He had a good conference in September.
:14:56. > :14:58.Absolutely, and now the Lib Dems have looked like a party without a
:14:59. > :15:03.leader or a leadership structure. Part of that is down to the chaotic
:15:04. > :15:08.or Byzantine organisational structure of the party. Part of it
:15:09. > :15:15.is Nick Clegg's failure to assert himself and impose himself over
:15:16. > :15:20.events. Is it Byzantine or Byzantine. It is labyrinthine. You
:15:21. > :15:31.don't get these words on the Today programme. The cost of living has
:15:32. > :15:34.been back on the agenda this week as Labour and the Tories argue over
:15:35. > :15:38.whether the value of money in your pocket is going up or down. Well
:15:39. > :15:41.there's one cost which has been racing ahead of inflation and that's
:15:42. > :15:44.the amount you have to pay to travel by train, by bus and by air. Rail
:15:45. > :15:47.commuters have been hard hit over the last four years, with the cost
:15:48. > :15:53.of the average season ticket going up by 18% since January 2010, while
:15:54. > :16:00.wages have gone up by just 3.6% over the same period. It means some rail
:16:01. > :16:04.users are paying high prices with commuters from Kent shelling out
:16:05. > :16:08.more than ?5,000 per year from the beginning of this month just to get
:16:09. > :16:14.to work in London. It doesn't compare well with our European
:16:15. > :16:22.counterparts. In the UK the average rail user spends 14% of their
:16:23. > :16:28.average income on trains. It is just 1.5% in Italy. Regulated fares like
:16:29. > :16:31.season tickets went up 3.1% at the beginning of this month, and with
:16:32. > :16:36.ministers keen to make passengers fought more of the bills, there are
:16:37. > :16:48.more fare rises coming down the track. And Patrick McLoughlin joins
:16:49. > :16:53.me now for the Sunday Interview Welcome. You claim to be in the
:16:54. > :16:59.party of hard-working people, so why is it that since you came to power
:17:00. > :17:05.rail commuters have seen the cost of their average season ticket going up
:17:06. > :17:12.in money terms by over 18% while their pay has gone up in money terms
:17:13. > :17:18.by less than four? I would point out that this is the first year in ten
:17:19. > :17:22.years that we have not had an above inflation increase on fares. The
:17:23. > :17:31.Government accepts we have got to do as much as we can to help the
:17:32. > :17:37.passengers. A big inflation increase since 2010. This is the first year
:17:38. > :17:43.in ten years that it has not been above RPI, but we are also investing
:17:44. > :17:47.huge amounts of money into the railways, building new trains for
:17:48. > :17:53.the East Coast Main Line and the great Western. We are spending 500
:17:54. > :17:59.million at Birmingham station, this is all increasing capacity, so we
:18:00. > :18:05.are seeing investments. Over the next five years Network Rail will
:18:06. > :18:13.invest over ?38 billion in the network structure. We also have an
:18:14. > :18:17.expensive railway and it is ordinary people paying for it. A season
:18:18. > :18:23.ticket from Woking in Surrey, commuter belt land in London, let's
:18:24. > :18:29.look at the figures. This is a distance of over 25 miles, it cost
:18:30. > :18:37.over ?3000 per year. We have picked similar distances to international
:18:38. > :18:51.cities. The British commuter is being ripped
:18:52. > :18:56.off. The British commuter is seeing record levels of investment in our
:18:57. > :19:00.railways. The investment has to be paid for. We are investing huge
:19:01. > :19:07.amounts of money and I don't know whether the figures you have got
:19:08. > :19:22.here... I'm sure they are likewise, as you have managed to do... White
:19:23. > :19:30.-- ten times more than the Italian equivalent. We have seen
:19:31. > :19:35.transformational changes in our railway services and we need to
:19:36. > :19:40.carry on investing. We were paying these prices even before you started
:19:41. > :19:50.investing. We have always paid a lot more to commute in this country than
:19:51. > :19:58.our European equivalents. I'm not quite sure I want to take on Italy
:19:59. > :20:04.is a great example. You would if you were a commuter. You
:20:05. > :20:06.is a great example. You would if you the other rates of taxation has to
:20:07. > :20:11.be paid as well. Isn't it the case they are making profits out of these
:20:12. > :20:17.figures and using them to subsidise cheaper fares back in their
:20:18. > :20:23.homeland? The overall profit margin train companies make is 3%, a
:20:24. > :20:26.reasonable amount, and we have seen a revolution as far as the railway
:20:27. > :20:31.industry is concerned. a revolution as far as the railway
:20:32. > :20:40.20 years we have seen passenger journeys going from 750 million to
:20:41. > :20:45.1.5 billion. That is a massive revolution in rail. Let me look
:20:46. > :20:45.1.5 billion. That is a massive spokesperson for the German
:20:46. > :20:59.government, the Ministry of transport.
:21:00. > :21:05.They are charging huge fares in Britain to take that money back to
:21:06. > :21:10.subsidise fares in Germany. What do you say to that? We are seeing
:21:11. > :21:16.British companies winning contracts in Germany. The National Express are
:21:17. > :21:20.winning contracts to the railways. What about the ordinary commuter?
:21:21. > :21:25.They are paying through the nose so German commuters can travel more
:21:26. > :21:31.cheaply. We are still subsidising the railways in this country, but
:21:32. > :21:36.overall we want to reduce the subsidy we are giving. We are still
:21:37. > :21:43.seeing growth in our railways and I want to see more people using them.
:21:44. > :21:49.Why do you increase rail fares at the higher RPI measure than the
:21:50. > :21:55.lower CPI measurement? That is what has always been done, and we have
:21:56. > :22:01.stopped. This is the first time in ten years that we have not raised
:22:02. > :22:08.the rail figures above RPI. You still link fares to RPI. You use the
:22:09. > :22:15.lower CPI figure when it suits you, to keep pension payments down for
:22:16. > :22:20.example, but the higher one when it comes to increasing rail fares. We
:22:21. > :22:23.are still putting a huge subsidy into the rail industry, there is
:22:24. > :22:29.still a huge amount of money going from the taxpayer to support the
:22:30. > :22:34.rail industry. I am not asking you about that, I am asking you why you
:22:35. > :22:44.link the figures to the higher RPI vesture Mark if we are going to pay
:22:45. > :22:48.for the levels of investment, so all the new trains being built at Newton
:22:49. > :22:52.Aycliffe for the East Coast Main Line and the great Western, ?3.
:22:53. > :22:57.billion of investment, new rolling stock coming online, then yes, we
:22:58. > :23:11.have to pay for it, and it is a question of the taxpayer paying for
:23:12. > :23:15.it all the -- or the passenger. You have capped parking fines until
:23:16. > :23:24.the next election, rail commuters we have seen the cost of their ticket
:23:25. > :23:30.has gone up by nearly 20%, you are the party of the drivers, not the
:23:31. > :23:45.passengers, aren't you? We are trying to help everybody who
:23:46. > :23:49.has been struggling. I think we are setting out long-term plans for our
:23:50. > :23:54.railways, investing heavily in them and it is getting that balance
:23:55. > :23:59.right. But you have done more for the driver than you have for the
:24:00. > :24:08.user of public transport. I don t accept that. They are paying the
:24:09. > :24:15.same petrol prices as 2011. This is the first time in ten years that
:24:16. > :24:22.there has not been an RPI plus rise. We are investing record
:24:23. > :24:27.amounts. Bus fares are also rising, 4.2% in real terms in 2010, at a
:24:28. > :24:33.time when real take-home pay has been falling. This hits commuters
:24:34. > :24:39.particularly workers who use buses on low incomes, another cost of
:24:40. > :24:44.living squeeze. I was with Stagecoach in Manchester on Friday,
:24:45. > :24:59.and I saw a bus company investing in new buses. Last week First ordered
:25:00. > :25:03.new buses. Part of your hard-working families you are always on about,
:25:04. > :25:09.they are the ones going to work early in the morning, and yet you
:25:10. > :25:14.are making them pay more for their buses in real terms than they did
:25:15. > :25:19.before. They would be happier if they could travel more cheaply. It
:25:20. > :25:28.is about getting investment in services, it has to be paid for Why
:25:29. > :25:33.not run the old buses for five more years? Because then there is more
:25:34. > :25:38.pollution in the atmosphere, modern buses have lower emissions, and we
:25:39. > :25:41.are still giving huge support overall to the bus industry and that
:25:42. > :25:47.is very important because I fully accept that the number of people,
:25:48. > :25:56.yes, use the train but a lot of people use buses as well. High-speed
:25:57. > :26:01.two, it has been delayed because 877 pages of key evidence from your
:26:02. > :26:07.department were left on a computer memory stick, part of the submission
:26:08. > :26:12.to environmental consultation. Your department's economic case is now
:26:13. > :26:18.widely regarded as a joke, now you do this. Is your department fit for
:26:19. > :26:24.purpose? Yes, and as far as what happened with the memory stick, it
:26:25. > :26:29.is an acceptable and shouldn't have happened, and therefore we have
:26:30. > :26:40.extended the time. There has been an extension in the time for people to
:26:41. > :26:44.make representation, the bill for this goes through Parliament in a
:26:45. > :26:58.different way to a normal bill. It is vital HS2 provides what we want.
:26:59. > :27:02.What I am very pleased about is when the paving bill was passed by
:27:03. > :27:07.Parliament just a few months ago, there was overwhelming support, and
:27:08. > :27:12.I kept reading there was going to be 70 people voting against it, in the
:27:13. > :27:17.end 30 people voted against it and there was a good majority in the
:27:18. > :27:23.House of Commons. So can you give a guarantee that this legislation will
:27:24. > :27:29.get onto the statute books? I will do all I can. I cannot tell you the
:27:30. > :27:36.exact Parliamentary time scale. The bill will have started its progress
:27:37. > :27:44.through the House of Commons by 2015, and it may well have
:27:45. > :27:48.concluded. The new chairman of HS2 said he can bring the cost of the
:27:49. > :27:58.line substantially under the budget, do you agree with that? The figure
:27:59. > :28:04.is ?42 billion with a large contingency, and David Higgins, as
:28:05. > :28:08.chairman of HS2, is looking at the whole cast and seeing if there are
:28:09. > :28:14.ways in which it can be built faster. At the moment across London
:28:15. > :28:19.we are building Crossrail, ?14. billion investment. There was a
:28:20. > :28:27.report last week saying what an excellent job has been done.
:28:28. > :28:35.Crossrail started under Labour. Actually it was Cecil Parkinson in
:28:36. > :28:41.the 1990 party conference. You may get HS2 cheaper if you didn't pay
:28:42. > :28:47.people so much, why is the nonexecutive chairman of HS2 on
:28:48. > :28:54.?600,000? And the new chief executive on ?750,000. These are
:28:55. > :28:59.very big projects and we need to attract the best people become so we
:29:00. > :29:04.are going for the best engineers in the world to engineer this project.
:29:05. > :29:08.It is a large salary, there is no question about it, but I'm rather
:29:09. > :29:13.pleased that engineers rather than bankers can be seen to get big
:29:14. > :29:17.rewards for delivering what will be very important pieces of national
:29:18. > :29:24.infrastructure. I didn't have time to ask you about your passenger duty
:29:25. > :29:27.so perhaps another time. We are about to speak to Nigel Mills and
:29:28. > :29:31.all of these MPs on your side who are rebelling against the
:29:32. > :29:35.Government, how would you handle them? We have got to listen to what
:29:36. > :29:42.our colleagues are talking about and try to respond it. Would you take
:29:43. > :29:52.them for a long walk off a short pier? I'm sure I would have many
:29:53. > :30:00.conversations with them. An immigration bill to tack the
:30:01. > :30:06.immigration into the UK. When limits on migration from Bulgaria and
:30:07. > :30:10.Romania were lifted this year there were warnings of a large influx of
:30:11. > :30:16.migrant workerses from the two new European countries. So far it's been
:30:17. > :30:21.more of a dribble than a flood. Who can forget Labour MP Keith Vaz
:30:22. > :30:25.greeting a handful of arrivals at Luton Airport. But it is early days
:30:26. > :30:29.and it is one of the reasons the Government's introduced a new
:30:30. > :30:35.Immigration Bill. The Prime Minister is facing rebellion from
:30:36. > :30:40.backbenchers who want tougher action on immigration from abroad. Nigel
:30:41. > :30:51.Mills would reimpose restrictions on how many Romanians and Bulgarians
:30:52. > :30:55.can come here. Joining me is Nigel Mills, Conservative MP behind the
:30:56. > :31:03.amendment and Labour MP Diane Abbott. Welcome. Nigel Mills, there
:31:04. > :31:07.hasn't been an influx of Romanians and Bulgarians. Why do you want to
:31:08. > :31:12.restore these, kick these transitional controls way forward to
:31:13. > :31:16.2019? I don't think any of us were expecting a rush on January 1st
:31:17. > :31:21.Andrew. I think we were talking about a range of 250,000 to 350 000
:31:22. > :31:27.people over five years. That's obviously a large amount of people,
:31:28. > :31:31.especially when you think net migration to the UK was well in
:31:32. > :31:36.excess of the Government's target of tens of thousands last year. The
:31:37. > :31:42.real concern is that it would be ever increasing our population,
:31:43. > :31:46.attracting lots of low-skilled, low-wage people, which keeps our
:31:47. > :31:51.people out of work and wages down. Did you accept that if you were to
:31:52. > :31:56.accept this, it would be in breach of the Treaty of Rome, the founding
:31:57. > :32:00.principle of the European Union We were trying to keep the restrictions
:32:01. > :32:04.that Bulgaria and Romania accepted for their first seven years of EU
:32:05. > :32:09.membership, on the basis that when we signed the treaty we weren't
:32:10. > :32:12.aware that we would have a huge and catastrophic recession we are still
:32:13. > :32:18.recovering from. But you would be in breach of the law, correct? The UK
:32:19. > :32:22.Parliament has a right to say we signed this deal before the terrible
:32:23. > :32:26.recession, and we need a bit longer in our national interest. It is
:32:27. > :32:35.worth noting that Bulgaria and Romania haven't met all their
:32:36. > :32:38.accession requirements. The Bulgarian requirement passed a
:32:39. > :32:43.law... So if they break the law it is alright for us to break the law?
:32:44. > :32:50.Is we should be focusing on trying to get 2. 4 million of our own in
:32:51. > :32:54.work, and 1 million people not in work... Let me bring in Diane
:32:55. > :32:59.Abbott. Will you vote for this amendment and why? It is in breach
:33:00. > :33:04.of the treaty. While I deplore MPs that try to cause trouble, these MPs
:33:05. > :33:08.have been particularly mindless because what they want to do
:33:09. > :33:14.wouldn't be legal. However, it is a Tory internal brief, if I might say
:33:15. > :33:21.so. Maybe you can cause trouble by voting for it. No, that would be
:33:22. > :33:25.going too far. Underlying it is a real antagonism for David Cameron.
:33:26. > :33:29.They have had to hold off on this bill until January. It was supposed
:33:30. > :33:34.to be debating before Christmas As we speak they've not cut a deal so
:33:35. > :33:40.it could be pretty grus om. Nigel Mills, what do you say to that I
:33:41. > :33:44.think there is a recognition that there is a problem with the amount
:33:45. > :33:49.of migration from EU countries that we need to tackle. We could try to
:33:50. > :33:53.achieve an annual cap perhaps, longer limits on when countries get
:33:54. > :33:57.free movement. I think the debate is moving in the right direction, but I
:33:58. > :34:00.think those people who are trapped out of work and desperately looking
:34:01. > :34:06.for work want something to be done now and not wait a few more years
:34:07. > :34:11.while we have more assessments Andrews. People are worried about
:34:12. > :34:16.the level of immigration. They I it is too high. That's the consensus in
:34:17. > :34:20.the country. We spoke to to migration centre in Hackney and they
:34:21. > :34:25.said they are struggling to cope with the number of people using
:34:26. > :34:29.their services. These are people with problems with the law. In the
:34:30. > :34:34.past years EU migrants put in more to the economy in taxation than they
:34:35. > :34:39.take out in benefits. When it comes to free movement, which is agitating
:34:40. > :34:43.Nige em, that horse has bolted. We signed a treaty. There is nothing
:34:44. > :34:48.people like Nigel Mills can do, unless they want to rip their party
:34:49. > :34:53.apart, God forbid. Will you go as far as to rip your party apart,
:34:54. > :34:58.Nigel Mills? Are you going to take this all the way? Would you rather
:34:59. > :35:03.see this bill go down than your amendment not be accepted? This is a
:35:04. > :35:08.very important bill. I think we all want to see measures on the statute
:35:09. > :35:12.book, so the last thing we want to see is this bill go down. We do need
:35:13. > :35:16.to set out clearly that we have real concerns about the level of EU
:35:17. > :35:24.migration and something needs to be done. Would you rather have the bill
:35:25. > :35:29.without your amendment or no bill at all? I am hoping we can have the
:35:30. > :35:34.bill with the amendment. I know that, but if you can't? Is that will
:35:35. > :35:41.depend on what the Labour Party decide to do. They are talking
:35:42. > :35:45.tougher on immigration but will they take action on it? Your party has
:35:46. > :35:49.been talking tough on immigration but I will be surprised if an Ed
:35:50. > :35:54.Miliband Labour Party would vote for egg in direct cameravention of the
:35:55. > :36:01.Treaty of Rome. It would make no sense. Nigel Mills is wishing for
:36:02. > :36:06.the impossible. If I was a Tory I would be wringing high hands. He
:36:07. > :36:11.hasn't ruled out crashing the bill. That's incredible. Where will this
:36:12. > :36:16.end, Nigel Mills? We'll end with a vote on Thursday. There's a lot of
:36:17. > :36:20.amendments people can use to show their concern about migration. We
:36:21. > :36:25.want limited and proportionate action, and that's what I am
:36:26. > :36:28.proposing. I want to see the bill on the statute book, I want the
:36:29. > :36:34.restrictions on people who shouldn't be here getting bank accounts and
:36:35. > :36:39.driving licences. I don't want to crash this bill but there's more
:36:40. > :36:47.measures we need in it. Nigel Mills thank you. You are going to be -
:36:48. > :36:52.popping up I think on the Sunday Politics East Midlands. Diane
:36:53. > :36:56.Abbott, thank you as well. We're in for more heavy rain and
:36:57. > :36:59.high winds across the UK today. You may remember that one UKIP
:37:00. > :37:01.councillor - he's since been suspended - caused controversy last
:37:02. > :37:04.weekend by blaming the recent flooding on the legalisation of gay
:37:05. > :37:07.marriage. Why didn't I think of that? So who better than this man to
:37:08. > :37:10.bring you the unofficial forecast. I'll be bringing you the late least
:37:11. > :37:19.UKIP weather from your area. You're watching Sunday Politics
:37:20. > :37:21.Also coming up in just over 20 minutes, I'll be looking at the week
:37:22. > :37:42.ahead with our political panel. in the South East. Coming up later,
:37:43. > :37:47.it is one thing all the parties seem to agree on. More houses should be
:37:48. > :37:52.built. So could the garden city be the answer to the housing ndeds of
:37:53. > :37:56.the Southeast? With me todax are Amber Rudd, Conservative MP for
:37:57. > :37:59.Hastings and Rye and Simon Thomson, selected by the Labour Partx to
:38:00. > :38:04.stand for art that at the Gdneral Election. We have phones and homes
:38:05. > :38:08.on the show this week. Let's add holidays. Is it ever OK to take a
:38:09. > :38:11.family holiday in term time? The Government is clear on the hssue and
:38:12. > :38:15.have put measures in place that allow parents to be fined. This
:38:16. > :38:20.week, figures we obtained show in Kent County Council alone
:38:21. > :38:24.councillors have raised ?200,00 from families who took their
:38:25. > :38:28.children out of school. Oncd upon a time it was about head teachers
:38:29. > :38:31.discretion. Now we have head teachers with more autonomy. You
:38:32. > :38:36.know that because you are the director of a trust that runs two
:38:37. > :38:40.academies in Hastings. Schools can set their own term dates and ours.
:38:41. > :38:43.What was wrong with head te`chers having the discretion when ht comes
:38:44. > :38:47.to a child being out of school? They still have a certain amount of
:38:48. > :38:55.discussion. They can do excdptional circumstances, but now we s`y you
:38:56. > :38:58.can have ten days to use. That is absolutely right. The reason it is
:38:59. > :39:03.so important is that truancx is so closely linked to performance. But
:39:04. > :39:07.we're not talking about tru`ncy It is a holiday. It is the samd thing
:39:08. > :39:13.as far as the trial is concdrned. If it is missing lessons it is falling
:39:14. > :39:17.behind other children. You genuinely are telling me the same thing
:39:18. > :39:21.applies, that families who take their holiday in term time `re as
:39:22. > :39:28.bad as parents who systemathcally allowed a child to play tru`nt? I am
:39:29. > :39:34.not comparing parents like that Children who missed school `re
:39:35. > :39:39.disadvantaged for their futtre life. So you never took your children at
:39:40. > :39:43.any point out of school for even a day? I don't think I ever dhd take
:39:44. > :39:49.them on holiday during term time, no. But just for a day or two? You
:39:50. > :39:53.should not take your childrdn out of school. You have to be clear about
:39:54. > :39:59.this. Does it matter getting your children to school during ldsson
:40:00. > :40:03.plan or not? It is not a colpromise. Nearly 4500 fines were issudd across
:40:04. > :40:08.Kent and East Sussex. It is clearly not working. Parents get fined, they
:40:09. > :40:13.go on holiday anyway, it just causes bad feeling between the school and
:40:14. > :40:18.parents, doesn't it? Absolutely What Amber Rudd is saying is it is
:40:19. > :40:22.the same thing. It is not the same thing. Forced absence, we h`d a case
:40:23. > :40:25.recently in Buckinghamshire where the couple could not find the
:40:26. > :40:30.holiday time or were not allowed from the employers to take time
:40:31. > :40:34.during school holidays. Thex have no other option and were fined heavily
:40:35. > :40:37.for it. But we have to tackle its proper truancy, when there hs an
:40:38. > :40:43.issue, a social problem at the home, and the way to do that throtgh
:40:44. > :40:47.teachers and welfare officers, which the Government have cut down on
:40:48. > :40:53.funding for. It is not penalising those parents. That is a sl`ck
:40:54. > :40:56.attitude. Parents have a responsibility to get their children
:40:57. > :41:00.to school. You cannot just say, we are going on holiday. Head teachers
:41:01. > :41:11.have a right to make a decision separately if they want to but the
:41:12. > :41:15.fact is... Okay... They can do it if they want to but we have made it
:41:16. > :41:23.more difficult... OK, we're going to... Simon, Amber. Let's sde you
:41:24. > :41:26.have a similar difference of opinion on our next subject. Just as
:41:27. > :41:34.important to lots of people, last week Culture Secretary Mirella near
:41:35. > :41:40.`` Maria Miller announced ftnding for broadband in rural areas. There
:41:41. > :41:45.is no doubt about the advantage of faster broadband to people who live
:41:46. > :41:48.in the countryside, but what about the mobile phone? We have bden
:41:49. > :41:53.speaking to businesses and campaigners are unhappy with their
:41:54. > :41:57.signal. Back in the 1980s, mobile phones
:41:58. > :42:05.were more of an accessory than a necessity, but today they are a
:42:06. > :42:08.vital the business tool. `` they are a vital business tool. Now lillions
:42:09. > :42:13.of us are doing business vi` a mobile, often on the move, `nd a
:42:14. > :42:19.recent survey of over 400 companies in the Southeast found that 84%
:42:20. > :42:24.suffered from so`called mobhle cold spots. Some of them claiming that
:42:25. > :42:33.across their companies, it had cost ?10,000 a year. It is Mandy. Can you
:42:34. > :42:37.hear me? Mandy Brook runs a global
:42:38. > :42:43.recruitment company near Hastings. The firm is set to double in size in
:42:44. > :42:49.the next 18 months. Her phone is her business, but she says local network
:42:50. > :42:55.coverage is an issue, so much so she's thinking of relocating the
:42:56. > :43:00.company. If I am out for a day, I may spend an hour of my datd not
:43:01. > :43:06.being able to get coverage. That is quite serious for me becausd my time
:43:07. > :43:12.is worth a lot of money. Never mind the candidates trying to get hold of
:43:13. > :43:18.you. The survey by the Southeast Local Enterprise Partnership found
:43:19. > :43:23.many areas where calls dropped out or failed, including a roads around
:43:24. > :43:27.places like Canterbury, Sheppey Crowborough and the coast Road
:43:28. > :43:34.between Dover and Deal. And this is another notorious cold spot, the
:43:35. > :43:40.off`mac 27 near Lewis. It is roads like this that could be bendfiting
:43:41. > :43:45.from the new Government funding Initially back promised to help 6
:43:46. > :43:50.million homes in rural areas. Now it has been scaled back to reach just
:43:51. > :43:54.60,000 premises and some sections of a roads. By the Government's own
:43:55. > :43:58.admission, that is a sizeable reduction. The nationwide project
:43:59. > :44:01.should be completed by the dnd of next March, but so far therd is only
:44:02. > :44:05.an open ended pledge for lilited provision in the Southeast will stop
:44:06. > :44:11.the countryside Alliance is campaigning on the issue. It says
:44:12. > :44:16.the Government has overpromhsed and under delivered. They have scaled
:44:17. > :44:21.back the project due to funding and 60,000 is not as many as 6 lillion
:44:22. > :44:27.but we need to make sure thdy adhere to the 60,000. Each business is
:44:28. > :44:32.important to the rural economy. They need their mobile signals to be able
:44:33. > :44:36.to work and live. Farmers and people running businesses have to have
:44:37. > :44:39.their signal. While the Govdrnment funds the new masts, it is the
:44:40. > :44:44.mobile phone companies that operate them. In the past, the industry has
:44:45. > :44:49.pointed the finger at local authority planners, claiming it is
:44:50. > :44:54.difficult to get new masts. `` permission for new masts. Council
:44:55. > :45:01.leaders deny that. It used to be difficult but it is much easier to
:45:02. > :45:07.put up a mast now. A lot of companies are sharing masts and we
:45:08. > :45:10.are encouraging that. Back hn Hastings, Mandy Brook thinks the
:45:11. > :45:15.Government is forgetting thd needs of out`of`town operations. Dveryone
:45:16. > :45:19.has been forced out of towns and because of that, they need to be
:45:20. > :45:22.held responsible. They have to think about what they are doing. We are
:45:23. > :45:27.coming out of a serious recdssion. If they want us to grow, thdy have
:45:28. > :45:31.to think about collectivity across the board. No one can deny the
:45:32. > :45:35.importance of technology like superfast broadband to the TK
:45:36. > :45:38.economy, but what many rural businesses in the South East want to
:45:39. > :45:45.know is have the Government lost sight of the importance of ` basic
:45:46. > :45:50.mobile phone signal? I am joined by John Cooke of the
:45:51. > :45:56.Mobile Operators Association, in our studio in Aberdeen. Is therd must
:45:57. > :46:03.hope `` much hope for busindss owners like Mandy Brook? Hello. The
:46:04. > :46:05.first thing to say is that `ny discussion about Mobil coverage
:46:06. > :46:15.needs to take into account the fact that it ought to have a mobhle
:46:16. > :46:20.signal we need a network of masts, and without that you cannot get a
:46:21. > :46:24.signal. There probably is not a mast near to her. Does she need to accept
:46:25. > :46:29.that or will that change? Are you going to put masts up in pl`ces like
:46:30. > :46:34.that? Things are getting better Can I also said that the comments from
:46:35. > :46:37.Mandy and Countryside Alliance about the economic importance of lobile
:46:38. > :46:44.coverage we completely agred with. Operators are very keen to try to
:46:45. > :46:49.help people like Mandy. Explain to me exactly what a cold spot is. Is
:46:50. > :46:54.it somewhere that you as an industry just haven't got around to
:46:55. > :46:58.collecting a mast yet, or is it somewhere that topography mdans it
:46:59. > :47:02.is impossible. A bit of both. The problem with rural areas is that
:47:03. > :47:07.almost invariably it is much more expensive to put infrastructure
:47:08. > :47:11.that, to put a mast there. That is one part of the problem. Thd other
:47:12. > :47:15.part of the problem is that because they are sparsely populated, you get
:47:16. > :47:19.fewer people using the mobile devices, so the revenue gendrated
:47:20. > :47:24.from that mast is less. Across the UK as a whole, and I think luch of
:47:25. > :47:29.Kent and Sussex would be thd same, in oral areas, most of the lasts
:47:30. > :47:33.actually, the operating cost exceeds the revenue. But the Governlent is
:47:34. > :47:36.putting money into this, and yet there has been no application as we
:47:37. > :47:41.understand it for any new mobile phone signals in the area where
:47:42. > :47:49.Mandy is. That is since 2010. So when will things improve for her? In
:47:50. > :47:52.terms of... If she is in Battle I have some sympathy because H know
:47:53. > :48:01.what the signal is like that. I think it is proud to much `` pretty
:48:02. > :48:06.much the same across the wider area. I am sure your sympathy is welcome,
:48:07. > :48:11.but are things going to change for her? I cannot comment on thd
:48:12. > :48:17.specifics in Battle, on a specific network. What I can say is that that
:48:18. > :48:21.is exactly the sort of area where I would anticipate things getting
:48:22. > :48:28.better in the not too distant future. Thank you. We must leave it
:48:29. > :48:33.there. John Cooke, there. It does not really sound like Mandy has got
:48:34. > :48:38.much hope. Amber, what would your advice be? I think you know Mandy.
:48:39. > :48:45.Yes, she runs a very successful business. Your interviewer said the
:48:46. > :48:50.good news is Battle is exactly the sort of place where we would expect
:48:51. > :48:54.a mast to be put up. The Government has put in thousands of pounds. The
:48:55. > :49:07.last mast was putting ahead of schedule, so it is a bit early to
:49:08. > :49:12.assess this. George Osborne may the pledge in 2011 to improve coverage
:49:13. > :49:16.to 60,000 households. An awful lot of people are going to get left
:49:17. > :49:21.out, and there are no detailed plans. I heard the same answer as
:49:22. > :49:25.you and I got the impression that was wishful thinking. We have to
:49:26. > :49:30.talk to the council and there are no impending plans for a mast hn
:49:31. > :49:37.Mandy's area. It has only jtst started. This interview we has told
:49:38. > :49:41.us it is a good place and there will be an application scene. He said it
:49:42. > :49:48.is the sort of place where there might be improvements in thd future.
:49:49. > :49:54.You are dismissing it too e`rly You are a former local journalist.
:49:55. > :49:59.People would rather have a last now than not have them, wouldn't they? I
:50:00. > :50:03.think there is still concern in some quarters about the impact of another
:50:04. > :50:07.phone mast that we have the support of our communities to get those
:50:08. > :50:12.mobile phone masts up there. I know for a fact that in Amber Rudd's
:50:13. > :50:15.constituency there is poor coverage. How can you encourage
:50:16. > :50:22.local companies to grow when they can't even get a signal? I thought
:50:23. > :50:25.he was saying that there is still time to improve things. The
:50:26. > :50:32.Government is behind in its schedule. There are two`year delays,
:50:33. > :50:40.and you have mucked up for G coverage. Of come are playing a
:50:41. > :50:45.role. We have to take into consideration the fact that
:50:46. > :50:49.taxpayer's money is in play here. We have to make sure it is spent it
:50:50. > :50:57.economically. You could takd some of the money kept for the citids and
:50:58. > :51:02.put it into rural areas. No point robbing Peter to pay Paul. The first
:51:03. > :51:08.one at the end of last year was ahead of schedule. But you `re
:51:09. > :51:12.talking about March next ye`r. You are never going to meet that
:51:13. > :51:18.schedule! We will have you back on. It is one of the things most of our
:51:19. > :51:21.politicians agree on. We nedd to build more houses, particul`rly in
:51:22. > :51:25.the South East, where demand is so high, but how to do this and
:51:26. > :51:28.crucially where is rather more divisive. Last week Deputy Prime
:51:29. > :51:31.Minister Nick Clegg said David Cameron must be honest and tpfront
:51:32. > :51:37.about Government plans to btild two new garden cities, one could be in
:51:38. > :51:44.Kent. It is an old concept. Here is a history lesson.
:51:45. > :51:48.Garden cities sprang from the late Victorian arts and crafts movement,
:51:49. > :51:53.a reaction to the sprawling urban squalor of industrialism by
:51:54. > :51:57.returning to nature. Ebenezdr Howard had a vision of utopian
:51:58. > :52:00.self`sufficient communities for whom the natural landscape was
:52:01. > :52:09.complemented by spacious, wdll planned settlement. His deshgns were
:52:10. > :52:14.pioneered at Letchworth. I `m standing in Milton Keynes,
:52:15. > :52:18.Britain's newest city. Soon came the new towns like Milton Keynes and
:52:19. > :52:22.Stevenage which sought to rdlieve the cities of the expanding
:52:23. > :52:26.populations. As well as relocating those whose homes were bombdd during
:52:27. > :52:29.World War II. These were social projects as much as building
:52:30. > :52:33.projects. They were aimed at changing lifestyle as well `s
:52:34. > :52:37.housing provision. So whethdr or not a modern garden city would confirm
:52:38. > :52:41.to Ebenezer Howard's radical original vision remains to be seen,
:52:42. > :52:44.but could a modern version of this 20th`century idea be the answer to
:52:45. > :52:48.housing needs of today? Let's find out the answer to that
:52:49. > :52:56.question. Joining us now from our studio in London is Ricky Btrdett, a
:52:57. > :53:00.professor and expert in London planning `` in urban planning at the
:53:01. > :53:07.London School of economics. Could garden cities be the answer to the
:53:08. > :53:09.housing crisis? Any form of redevelopment is something we need
:53:10. > :53:15.to look at. We cannot keep ht the way it is, because we cannot `` but
:53:16. > :53:20.we cannot look back on something that worked 100 years ago and think
:53:21. > :53:24.that is the solution today. Those garden cities were to get away from
:53:25. > :53:29.congestion, pollution, overcrowding of the industrial city. That is not
:53:30. > :53:33.the problem today. Today we have a lot of extra space, even in London,
:53:34. > :53:42.if you think of the Thames, Gateway. Why go and build new stuff out on
:53:43. > :53:47.the edges of the city when we still have opportunities close to hand?
:53:48. > :53:51.Why is everybody frightened of building in the countryside? There
:53:52. > :53:57.is heaps of land in the South East and it cannot all be agricultural
:53:58. > :54:00.land. We have an understandhng of sustainability and the environment
:54:01. > :54:03.now. Everyone understands that if you reduce the need for people to
:54:04. > :54:11.sit in a car and commute maxbe half an hour, and our day, you c`n walk
:54:12. > :54:15.or take public transport to go to work or school or hospital, that
:54:16. > :54:18.must be a good thing. So given that there is a lot of space left in some
:54:19. > :54:24.of our cities, particularly the South East, why go and encroach on
:54:25. > :54:29.the countryside, which is going to take valuable land away frol nature
:54:30. > :54:34.when we can use a lot of thd Brownfield land which is wahting for
:54:35. > :54:37.us? But if you use the Brownfield sites and infill, you add to the
:54:38. > :54:43.existing towns and cities. Doesn't that just cause congestion on
:54:44. > :54:48.existing roads, more compethtion for school places and doctors
:54:49. > :54:55.appointments? That is where planning comes in. We know we have to plan
:54:56. > :54:58.cities well. There is not overcrowding on the streets or in
:54:59. > :55:02.the non`central parts of London and other cities in the South E`st. That
:55:03. > :55:06.is not the problem. The real issue is that if you start putting people
:55:07. > :55:09.way out on the edges on thehr own, not only do you not even have access
:55:10. > :55:13.to hospitals because there `re no hospitals there, you do not have
:55:14. > :55:17.access to public transport because there is no public transport there,
:55:18. > :55:20.you actually run the risk of creating debtors of communities
:55:21. > :55:28.which are out on their own, and all they are our homes. You might solve
:55:29. > :55:32.the House prices, but you do not create a community. `` you light
:55:33. > :55:39.solve the housing crisis. That is the key issue. Some interesting
:55:40. > :55:44.points that we can put to the politicians in the studio. The
:55:45. > :55:47.politicians have got it wrong, Simon. If you ask an expert, the
:55:48. > :55:54.last thing we should be doing is building new cities, and yet this is
:55:55. > :55:56.what Ed Miliband promised in his latest conference speech, a
:55:57. > :56:03.generation of garden cities and towns. Has he got it wrong? No, he
:56:04. > :56:09.hasn't. The professor was rhght we should look at filling in Brownfield
:56:10. > :56:18.sites first. Ed Miliband has made that commitment of new housds built
:56:19. > :56:20.by 2020. We need that. I have been speaking to so many people
:56:21. > :56:25.struggling to get on the hotsing ladder or even pay rent in Dartford
:56:26. > :56:28.and elsewhere in the South Dast Brownfield sites first and then we
:56:29. > :56:32.need to make sure the infrastructure is in place. Too often, devdlopers
:56:33. > :56:43.are sitting on land. We need to say to them, no, you use it or lose it.
:56:44. > :56:49.Brownfield sites in alone are not going to create enough spacd. We
:56:50. > :56:53.have been told we need more. I think the answer is to provide a sort of
:56:54. > :57:00.smorgasbord of different options. What was so interesting frol the
:57:01. > :57:03.professor is that there is lore awareness and planning about homes
:57:04. > :57:09.and community. I have heard the Secretary of State talk abott God
:57:10. > :57:18.and settlements, so not shrhnk to garden cities, in areas that are
:57:19. > :57:21.half Brownfield, half town. Not necessarily in the middle of cities.
:57:22. > :57:26.We should be looking at garden settlements, Brownfield, and new
:57:27. > :57:31.areas. We need a solution that covers all these areas. But one of
:57:32. > :57:36.the difficulties is what thd planning authorities say. I have
:57:37. > :57:40.spoken to one authority on BBC Radio Kent and they say there is no way
:57:41. > :57:45.they will endorse a new garden city. How do you get around that? I
:57:46. > :57:49.do not think either of you have an idea about how you get around the
:57:50. > :57:53.fact that this is what you need but it may not be what local authorities
:57:54. > :57:58.are going to be able to sell to the people who live there. You have to
:57:59. > :58:05.work with them, sit down with several local authorities, not just
:58:06. > :58:09.one. To have one in Yalding as you mentioned makes no sense. You need
:58:10. > :58:14.to sit down with a number of authorities and say, what are the
:58:15. > :58:19.incentives, what infrastructure do you need, and then you start
:58:20. > :58:22.planning. Amber Rudd, what to pick up on this thought about wh`t people
:58:23. > :58:26.think in this country. The professor said there is no overcrowding but I
:58:27. > :58:32.will tell you people phone hnto the radio show saying over and over
:58:33. > :58:35.again, we are full. Until politicians are really honest and
:58:36. > :58:41.say that is not true, we nedd to change that narrative, you `re never
:58:42. > :58:47.going to persuade people to accept these development is. You are right,
:58:48. > :58:51.we need to explain to peopld why it is needed. It is not just about
:58:52. > :58:55.immigration, it is about falilies and children. There is one Local Rd
:58:56. > :59:02.currently being built which will provide a site for 2000 new homes.
:59:03. > :59:06.And that is planning permission that was granted, so authorities will
:59:07. > :59:15.work with you sometime. The other events this week: No
:59:16. > :59:19.fracking in Balcombe is the promise of energy firm Cuadrilla.
:59:20. > :59:22.Protesters there are concerned the company is still planning other
:59:23. > :59:26.means of oil extraction. ?NDWLINE In Margate man has been charged with
:59:27. > :59:30.assaulting Nigel Farage. Thd UKIP leader was hit over the head during
:59:31. > :59:34.this fracas, with a placard. 28,000 homes were left without power
:59:35. > :59:37.in Kent during recent storms. Pulled before the Energy Select Colmittee,
:59:38. > :59:41.energy bosses were accused of a complacent response. You displayed a
:59:42. > :59:43.neglect for your customers which I personally find absolutely
:59:44. > :59:46.astonishing. But thank you `ll for coming in.
:59:47. > :59:49.Meanwhile, a Kent County Cotncil report has admitted that although
:59:50. > :59:52.its response to the storms was first`class, it still needs a better
:59:53. > :59:55.flood plan. Making his own weather forecast MP
:59:56. > :59:58.Simon Kirby responded to a TKIP councillor who blamed the storms on
:59:59. > :00:04.legalised same`sex marriage by saying the future's bright for the
:00:05. > :00:10.city's gay community. The wdather in Brighton is nearly always vdry
:00:11. > :00:13.sunny. CHEERING. It would only be fair if Brighton Kemptown w`s
:00:14. > :00:21.actually put in place on thd shipping forecast.
:00:22. > :00:25.That is it for this week. Mx thanks to our guests, Simon Thomson and
:00:26. > :00:40.Amber Rudd. constituency, very pleased. Andrew,
:00:41. > :00:43.back to you. UKIP leader Nigel Farage is never
:00:44. > :00:47.far away from controversy, but this week he's been outdoing himself He
:00:48. > :00:50.was hit over the head with a placard by a protester in Kent, provoked
:00:51. > :00:53.outrage by saying women with children are worth less to city
:00:54. > :01:00.firms, and said the ban on owning handguns was 'crackers'. He also
:01:01. > :01:04.seemed less than sure of his party's own policies when I interviewed him
:01:05. > :01:07.on the Daily Politics. And the story that got everyone talking was the
:01:08. > :01:12.suggestion by a UKIP councillor that flooding is linked to gay marriage.
:01:13. > :01:20.We'll talk about all of that in a moment, but first, over to Nigel
:01:21. > :01:24.with the weather. Weather for all areas of the British Isles but
:01:25. > :01:29.definitely not "Bongo Bongo Land." You may have heard about a storm in
:01:30. > :01:36.a tea cup developed when you kip councillor in Oxfordshire blamed the
:01:37. > :01:40.floods on the gay marriage Bill The old party is focusing on the view of
:01:41. > :01:48.UKIP members like him, even though he had said a sell yuj of things
:01:49. > :01:55.before when a Tory councillor. How quickly things change depending on
:01:56. > :02:02.when the blouse. There are occasional barmy views by people of
:02:03. > :02:06.all persuasions. In Whitby a Labour councillor claimed of fathered a
:02:07. > :02:17.child with an extra terrorist ral, and said his real mother was a
:02:18. > :02:23.foot green alien. And in Wales a councillor
:02:24. > :02:31.thinking about heading off for the slopes, there were flurries of
:02:32. > :02:37.embarrassment for the Tories after Aidan Burly organised a Nazi skiing
:02:38. > :02:43.party in a resort. Anyone heading to Brussels, perhaps
:02:44. > :02:47.on the gravy train, watch out for hot air.
:02:48. > :02:55.In Britain temperatures are rising ahead of the European elections in
:02:56. > :03:00.May. It could get stormy, so advise light aircraft. Watch out for
:03:01. > :03:04.outbreaks of common sense, and no chance of cyclonic fruit cakes. Back
:03:05. > :03:10.to you, Andrew, with the rest of the Sunday Politics.
:03:11. > :03:14.Nick, if it was any other party that had bon through the past week it
:03:15. > :03:19.would be in meltdown. And maybe it is harming UKIP and maybe it isn't.
:03:20. > :03:25.What do you think? That just shows, that great weather forecast, Prince
:03:26. > :03:30.Charles now has a rival to be an excellent weather forecaster, as
:03:31. > :03:35.does the Duchess of Cornwall. It shows why Nigel Farage is the fefr
:03:36. > :03:39.candidate to the European elections. Our invitation to the British people
:03:40. > :03:43.to kick the establishment. The establishment have spent five years
:03:44. > :03:48.that the European Parliament is a waste of time, so who are you going
:03:49. > :03:54.to vote for? A Nigel Farage type of person. What was important about
:03:55. > :03:58.your eadviceration of Nigel Farage on Daily Politics is that when it
:03:59. > :04:01.came to the substance, they flounder. But the point about that
:04:02. > :04:07.party is they may have the thinnest set of policies, but people know
:04:08. > :04:14.what they stand for more than any other parties - get out of Europe, a
:04:15. > :04:20.grammar school in every town. If any other leading politician called for
:04:21. > :04:23.an end to the ban on handguns, at a time when we've seen these appalling
:04:24. > :04:27.gun deaths in the United States now almost one every week in some
:04:28. > :04:37.terrible siege in a school. It would be a crisis. It seems to wash off
:04:38. > :04:42.him. He's got congenital foot-and-mouthitis. Straight into
:04:43. > :04:48.another wild nothing to do with why people might vote UKIP. I don't
:04:49. > :04:53.think people are desperate to have handgun licences back in this
:04:54. > :04:58.country. It is such an unusual phenomenon, UKIP, that if this was a
:04:59. > :05:04.Tory or a Labour or a Lib Dem saying it, we've seen the damage done to
:05:05. > :05:08.the Lib Dems on a much more serious manner, we would say this is
:05:09. > :05:13.terminal. But maybe it adds to this image that we are not like the other
:05:14. > :05:19.parties. I think that is it. We keep waiting for these scandals and
:05:20. > :05:25.embarrassments to do damage to UKIP's poll ratings, but it's not
:05:26. > :05:29.working. It is ultimately because if you are an antiestablishment party,
:05:30. > :05:34.if you are an anti-system party the rules of the game which apply to the
:05:35. > :05:40.establishment parties don't apply to you. And the more ramshackle and
:05:41. > :05:46.embarrassing you are, the more authentic you seem. It what be take
:05:47. > :05:52.something for them not to finish second in May. Do they spend the
:05:53. > :05:55.following 12 months sinking in the poll snoos And George Osborne's
:05:56. > :05:58.strategy is fame everything as Labour versus the Conservatives The
:05:59. > :06:05.electorate will have their fun in May. Maybe the Tories will be beat
:06:06. > :06:10.into third place but in thejection is that -- but in the general
:06:11. > :06:18.election it is Labour versus the Tories. The Conservative Party will
:06:19. > :06:23.run around, 46 letters to Graham Brady, a leadership contest. That
:06:24. > :06:26.sort of scenario. UKIP, if it rules well in the European elections,
:06:27. > :06:33.could cause big trouble for Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg couldn't it?
:06:34. > :06:38.The big point about this, David Cameron said this is not a political
:06:39. > :06:43.party but a pressure group. This is the way to look at UKIP, and the way
:06:44. > :06:50.it is used by people in the right of the party, who say we have to do
:06:51. > :06:57.this. I like the policy of painting the trains in their old liveries. It
:06:58. > :07:07.would be like my old train set. I like the bigger passports.
:07:08. > :07:15.Pre-GNER... And London and Midland. I used to be a train spotter.
:07:16. > :07:21.Gordon Birtwhistle has been on the phone. Good to know you are watching
:07:22. > :07:26.but pity you are not here. He wanted to clarify he had constituency
:07:27. > :07:30.commitments to prevent him coming on the show to talk about becoming
:07:31. > :07:33.leader of the party, but he didn't dispute anything we said on the
:07:34. > :07:36.show. Yesterday, Ed Balls said that
:07:37. > :07:39.housing investment will be a central priority for the next Labour
:07:40. > :07:43.Government. It's a big issue, as the lack of new homes pushes up the the
:07:44. > :07:46.price of owning or renting. Well, tomorrow the Tories will announce
:07:47. > :07:52.what they say is the most ambitious programme of affordable
:07:53. > :07:55.housebuilding for 20 years. The Government sees housing as a really
:07:56. > :08:03.important part of the economy. That's why we are announcing a 23
:08:04. > :08:07.billion package for 165,000 new affordable homes. So individual
:08:08. > :08:12.builders, councils, housing associations can bid for that money.
:08:13. > :08:16.Phase one, which we are halfway through at the moment, we've built
:08:17. > :08:24.170,000 houses. 99,000 already coming out of the ground, so we ve
:08:25. > :08:29.made real progress on that. So, 165,000 new, affordable homes. It is
:08:30. > :08:33.a lot. Let me add three more words. Over three years. It is not such a
:08:34. > :08:37.lot. It is not, and Labour's commitment is 200,000 homes a year
:08:38. > :08:43.and even that isn't enough. The problem here is that the vest
:08:44. > :08:46.interest is with people who already have homes. They have a vote in the
:08:47. > :08:52.system through the planning regulations. In London there is a
:08:53. > :08:56.gap in the hedge through Richmond Park through which you should be
:08:57. > :09:00.able to see St Paul's Cathedral That's why you cannot build homes
:09:01. > :09:07.where you want them. I don't think we want to build homes over Richmond
:09:08. > :09:12.Park. He wasn't saying that. That's dies an Tyne -- that's Byzantine.
:09:13. > :09:17.You've got to deal with supply, which is why Labour is talking about
:09:18. > :09:23.200,000 a year, and what George Osborne has done with supply is
:09:24. > :09:27.helping with demand. We know the Help to Buy Scheme is pretty
:09:28. > :09:34.dangerous, and Mark Carney is keen to put the break on that. If you are
:09:35. > :09:38.to deal with supply, you have to do radical things. Chris Huhne talked
:09:39. > :09:42.about on brownfield sites you can tax people who are holding the land
:09:43. > :09:47.as if the development has taken place. Then if you are really going
:09:48. > :09:51.to deal with it you have to talk about the greenfield sites, and you
:09:52. > :09:55.have to deal with the garden cities argument, which is too much for the
:09:56. > :09:58.Tories. All the parties seem to agree building new houses is a
:09:59. > :10:03.political winner. I hope that they are right. I'm not sure they are.
:10:04. > :10:08.The housing market is the example of what economists call the insider
:10:09. > :10:13.in-outsider problem. People who are already homeowners have no rational
:10:14. > :10:18.incentive to vote for more housing stock. Even if you leave aside the
:10:19. > :10:22.Conservative arable objections, if you are a homeowner there is an
:10:23. > :10:26.interest to stick with the planning promise that we have. So then we are
:10:27. > :10:31.stuck between a rock and a hard place. Not only are we growing at
:10:32. > :10:36.the moment but our population is growing. I've seen projects that in
:10:37. > :10:40.quite quickly we will overtake Germany and become the largest
:10:41. > :10:45.populated country in Europe. If that's the case we've got to build
:10:46. > :10:49.homes. We have. If you look at Tower Hamlets in London, the population is
:10:50. > :10:54.r ging higher than the number of dwelling. Classically the theory's
:10:55. > :11:01.been young people are most affected by this and they don't vote much.
:11:02. > :11:07.But when their parents have young Johnny stuck at home at 37, that's
:11:08. > :11:10.an electoral issue. That's why the garden cities project is
:11:11. > :11:15.interesting, because they finance themselves. You zone it for
:11:16. > :11:21.development, it is worth ?2 million an acre and then you can build on
:11:22. > :11:26.it. But who is going to want the greenfield sites gone. And how
:11:27. > :11:31.quickly can we build garden cities today? Some were started before the
:11:32. > :11:36.Town and Country Planning Act. I've read stats about the way Chinese and
:11:37. > :11:40.Japanese are building houses and they were slower than that. Here's a
:11:41. > :11:45.thought, sticking on the housing theme. Ed Miliband came up with the
:11:46. > :11:50.energy freeze, a populist interventionist move. Then the use
:11:51. > :11:55.it or lose it to land developers. Then breaking up the banks. Now the
:11:56. > :12:00.50p tax rate. How much would you put on Labour coming up for rent
:12:01. > :12:05.controls? That's already a big split. They are split already on it.
:12:06. > :12:09.They have. In London it is a popular policy. It might not play well in
:12:10. > :12:13.the rest of the country. I would say 50-50 on that. I think Labour
:12:14. > :12:17.supporting rent controls like the Tories having a go at welfare. The
:12:18. > :12:21.policy may be individually popular but it sends an impression about the
:12:22. > :12:26.party which might be less attract active. It confirms underlying
:12:27. > :12:29.suspicions that vote these guys into power and suddenly they are
:12:30. > :12:34.tampering with the private economy. The memories of the '70s when
:12:35. > :12:37.Governments tried and failed to do that. It is riskier than a
:12:38. > :12:42.superficial reading of the polls would suggest. One to watch? I think
:12:43. > :12:48.they are looking at it. That was the key message of the Ed Balls speech
:12:49. > :12:53.on housing, is looking at supply and how you get to that 200,000 figure a
:12:54. > :12:57.year, which is substantially more than what Kris Hopkins is talking
:12:58. > :13:02.about. What we didn't get to talk about, remember we had Michael
:13:03. > :13:06.Wilshaw on, the Chief Inspector of Schools. We all consumed was Mr
:13:07. > :13:09.Gove's man, the Education Secretary's man. Now according to
:13:10. > :13:13.the Sunday Times he is spitting blood about the way Mr Gove and his
:13:14. > :13:17.office are speaking about him behind the scenes. We've checked the quotes
:13:18. > :13:22.and he stands by them, so I think we'll have to have the head of
:13:23. > :13:25.Ofsted back on the programme. If you are watching, we're here. All that
:13:26. > :13:29.to the Lib Dems who didn't come on today.
:13:30. > :13:33.That's all for today. Thanks to all my guests. The Daily Politics is
:13:34. > :13:36.back on Monday at midday on BBC Two, and I'll be here again next week.
:13:37. > :14:14.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:15. > :14:22.Britain, with 120,000 soldiers is now at war with Germany
:14:23. > :14:30.This would be the first truly modern war.
:14:31. > :14:35.and resolve of entire populations against each other.
:14:36. > :14:40.A war that would turn the country upside down.