:00:37. > :00:42.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. The unions helped
:00:43. > :00:46.him beat his brother to the top Now Ed Miliband wants to change Labour's
:00:47. > :00:50.relationship with them. Who will come out on top? We will be asking
:00:51. > :00:52.one union baron what he thinks. Cracks in the coalition after
:00:53. > :00:57.Education Secretary Michael Gove sacks the chairwoman of Ofsted. His
:00:58. > :01:00.Lib Dem deputy is said to be hopping mad. We will be talking to the new
:01:01. > :01:04.deputy leader of the Lib Dems, Malcolm Bruce.
:01:05. > :01:07.Caught a bout of the EU blues? David Cameron has been drowning his
:01:08. > :01:10.sorrows with the President of France. Who better? We will be
:01:11. > :01:14.asking if the EU referendum bill is dead in the water.
:01:15. > :01:17.And bad weather getting you down? Getting from A to B a bit of a
:01:18. > :01:19.nightmare? Fear not! The leader of the Greens will be here with her
:01:20. > :01:33.In the South East, who lost a vote traffic and travel report. Dutch
:01:34. > :01:36.In the South East, who lost a vote of no`confidence but he says he will
:01:37. > :01:47.stay. We will reassurance people want?
:01:48. > :01:51.Yes, all that and more in today s action-packed Sunday Politics. And
:01:52. > :01:57.blowing more hot air than I have had hot dinners, Helen Lewis, Nick Watt
:01:58. > :01:59.and Iain Martin. After the row about candidate
:02:00. > :02:02.selection in Falkirk, Ed Miliband said he wanted to reshape the
:02:03. > :02:06.relationship between Labour and the unions. The biggest changes involve
:02:07. > :02:11.union membership of the party, which in turn will affect future Labour
:02:12. > :02:16.leadership elections. Some claim this is Ed's Clause 4 moment. But
:02:17. > :02:19.the unions will continue to be powerful at conference and on the
:02:20. > :02:23.party's ruling committees, and they will still be able to bankroll the
:02:24. > :02:33.election campaign. Here is Labour's deputy leader, Harriet Harman,
:02:34. > :02:36.speaking earlier. What he is proposing for the March the 1st
:02:37. > :02:40.conference is a huge change in financing, in the election of the
:02:41. > :02:46.leader, in what goes on at local level. In due course, it might have
:02:47. > :02:49.implications for the NEC elections and conference. But this is already
:02:50. > :02:52.a big issue to take forward. Joining me now is Paul Kenny,
:02:53. > :03:02.general secretary of the GMB union and chair of the Trade Union and
:03:03. > :03:09.Labour Party Liaison Organisation. Is this Ed Miliband's Clause 4
:03:10. > :03:13.moment? I don't know about that It is certainly a bold move,
:03:14. > :03:18.particularly to have an electoral college, which as you said was the
:03:19. > :03:24.system which elected him in the first place. Everybody admits that
:03:25. > :03:28.has needed reforming for some time. Moving to a one member, one vote
:03:29. > :03:36.situation seems to me to be sensible. I know some people are
:03:37. > :03:41.upset, mostly MPs, who will lose their golden share. But it is
:03:42. > :03:49.nonsense that one MP should have the same vote as 1000 party members So
:03:50. > :04:00.the MPs have lost out. Have the unions lost out? Well, the system is
:04:01. > :04:04.currently that union members get a ballot paper, but they have to
:04:05. > :04:09.declare that they are a Labour supporter and they have to sign to
:04:10. > :04:15.that effect in order to participate. Then their vote is counted. At the
:04:16. > :04:19.last election, about 200,000 trade union members gave that indication,
:04:20. > :04:27.and they participated in that way. That will not change. The way it is
:04:28. > :04:31.organised will be different. The big change in the electoral college is
:04:32. > :04:38.that the logical weight given to MPs will disappear. I wonder if you have
:04:39. > :04:41.really lost anything. At the moment, there are about 3 million people
:04:42. > :04:47.automatically affiliated from the unions to the Labour Party. If only
:04:48. > :04:52.10% of them opt in, that will still mean twice as many union individual
:04:53. > :05:00.members, 300,000, versus about 180,000 Labour Party members. So
:05:01. > :05:04.union members and maybe even the unions will have as big an influence
:05:05. > :05:10.on the leadership elections as you do now, maybe bigger? Well, they are
:05:11. > :05:15.individual votes. Different unions support different candidates. It is
:05:16. > :05:21.lost in the media myth of barons and block votes, but there is an
:05:22. > :05:25.individual vote. Different unions recommend different candidates, and
:05:26. > :05:30.union members vote accordingly. Ed Miliband won more individual votes
:05:31. > :05:37.by a country mile than David, but it got messed up in the process of this
:05:38. > :05:42.electoral college. As I have understood the proposals so far
:05:43. > :05:49.they are not a done deal. There is a lot of discussion. But it seems
:05:50. > :05:52.there are three hurdles. Firstly, union members themselves will have
:05:53. > :05:56.to agree whether they want to affiliate to the Labour Party. If
:05:57. > :06:02.they don't, the rest of it falls. If they decide they do my they will ask
:06:03. > :06:06.union members to support that an individual basis the next five
:06:07. > :06:11.years, which will have financial implications. Then there will be a
:06:12. > :06:15.third position, which is that people who may want to agree with the
:06:16. > :06:19.union's position and affiliate with the Labour Party may want to go
:06:20. > :06:22.further and become active supporters of the Labour Party, participating
:06:23. > :06:28.in leadership elections. They will have to give their sanction to that
:06:29. > :06:31.at a third stage. So the implications in terms of
:06:32. > :06:38.constituency parties and so on are a lot less than the idea that the 3
:06:39. > :06:42.million who are currently affiliated will change. At the moment, the
:06:43. > :06:49.unions, because of the automatic affiliation, hand over a affiliation
:06:50. > :06:52.fees of about ?8 million a year to Labour. You will now get to keep
:06:53. > :07:00.that money, because the individuals will have to put up the money
:07:01. > :07:03.themselves. You can keep that money and determine if you give it to
:07:04. > :07:08.Labour to fight the election campaign, correct? Incorrect.
:07:09. > :07:12.Firstly, the affiliation fees are paid from what is called the
:07:13. > :07:17.political fund, which most unions have to set up in order to
:07:18. > :07:23.participate. The union will continue to pay the ?3 a affiliation fee for
:07:24. > :07:32.those members who want the union to be affiliated. But you get to keep a
:07:33. > :07:37.lot more money. In reality, we will see a transitional period of a few
:07:38. > :07:44.years. Less people will probably say yes, depending on how popular Labour
:07:45. > :07:48.are, about whether they want the union to give money to the Labour
:07:49. > :08:03.Party. The GMB has already done this. By the way, don't call me
:08:04. > :08:06.kneel. It is Andrew or Mr Neil. The unions will have a bigger chunk of
:08:07. > :08:10.money because the unions will not be handing over all of the money at one
:08:11. > :08:14.time. But you could still play a major part in funding the Labour
:08:15. > :08:20.election campaign. We'll how much you give the dependent on what the
:08:21. > :08:28.Labour Party puts in its manifesto? Of course it will. It will have to
:08:29. > :08:33.justify our support to Labour for the members who provide money to the
:08:34. > :08:37.political fund. If we did not argue for the cert is social justice
:08:38. > :08:41.campaigns and laws we want to see, we would be failing in our job. I
:08:42. > :08:45.don't intend to hide that from anybody. The unions are there to
:08:46. > :08:52.fight for their members. That is our job. So you will still be a major
:08:53. > :08:56.part of the bankroll of the Labour campaign. You will still have 5 % of
:08:57. > :09:00.the votes at a Labour conference, and you will still have a major part
:09:01. > :09:04.in the Labour National executive committee and the policy committee.
:09:05. > :09:14.It is right to say the unions are still at the heart of Labour, are
:09:15. > :09:17.they not? Well, if you sick to break the affiliated link between trade
:09:18. > :09:22.unions and the Labour Party, the whole thing collapses. That is what
:09:23. > :09:26.anchors the Labour Party as far as we are concerned. Many of our
:09:27. > :09:31.members think that when they want to look for ferrochrome and rights
:09:32. > :09:33.social justice, housing and the health service, Labour are better it
:09:34. > :09:38.quipped to deliver that for working people than the current parties
:09:39. > :09:43.That is why we have traditionally supported them. But not at all of
:09:44. > :09:49.our members support Labour, which is why we don't affiliate all of them
:09:50. > :09:53.to Labour. There are over 30 million people in the British labour force
:09:54. > :10:04.now. Union membership is only 6 5 million out of that 30. A 6.5% of
:10:05. > :10:10.that do not vote Labour, they vote Tory or liberal or nationalist in
:10:11. > :10:17.Scotland. So you are a relatively small pressure group. Why should
:10:18. > :10:21.Labour be in thrall to you? We are the biggest voluntary organisation
:10:22. > :10:27.in this country. Sorry about that, but that is the fact. People make
:10:28. > :10:30.conscious choices. My own union the GMB, has been growing for eight
:10:31. > :10:36.years. So this dying picture you are trying to paint... In terms of
:10:37. > :10:40.accounting for the fact that some do not support Labour, that is why
:10:41. > :10:48.unions do not affiliate all of their members to the Labour Party. We have
:10:49. > :10:52.adjusted to that. If you don't like being called Neil, I don't like
:10:53. > :11:00.being called a barren either. What about Mr Baron? I don't like that
:11:01. > :11:02.either. We are representatives of working organisations. It may be
:11:03. > :11:07.inconvenient for politicians to have to listen to working people, but we
:11:08. > :11:15.will continue to press. Lord Baron, thank you very much.
:11:16. > :11:19.So, is this a Clause 4 moment for Ed Miliband? Not really, but to his
:11:20. > :11:22.credit, he is going ahead with this. There was a point at which it looked
:11:23. > :11:27.as though Ed Miliband would back away from reform. To his credit he
:11:28. > :11:33.is trying to create a mass membership party again. But when it
:11:34. > :11:35.comes to the crucial business of funding a general election campaign,
:11:36. > :11:42.these reforms will make Labour more reliant on large donations from
:11:43. > :11:46.trade unions. They could have more power now, because they get to hold
:11:47. > :11:52.back this money, whereas beforehand, they had to hand it over
:11:53. > :11:59.automatically. As Mr Kenny just said, how much they handover will be
:12:00. > :12:03.dependent on good behaviour. Yes, but these are pragmatic reforms The
:12:04. > :12:06.fact that Ed Miliband has a lot of capital in not being seen as a
:12:07. > :12:10.Blairite has helped him get these through . The response has been
:12:11. > :12:15.muted, which suggests good party management on his behalf. That may
:12:16. > :12:18.be because they will still have 50% of the votes at a party conference.
:12:19. > :12:22.Mr Kenny was clear that that could be deal-breaker if they tried to
:12:23. > :12:28.take that away. They have more places at the NEC than anyone else,
:12:29. > :12:33.and party members, if only 10% of them signed up, they will outweigh
:12:34. > :12:38.individual members in the constituencies. It was interesting,
:12:39. > :12:41.how relaxed Paul Kenny was. He was taking thousands of pounds from the
:12:42. > :12:44.Labour Party a few months ago because he was annoyed about these
:12:45. > :12:49.reforms, and now he is relaxed because they still have 50% of the
:12:50. > :12:52.vote at Labour Party conference and Labour Party Parliamentary
:12:53. > :12:56.candidates are still selected in the same way. But there is a simple
:12:57. > :13:00.point here. Yes, you can pick apart what Ed Miliband said and said the
:13:01. > :13:05.unions have too much influence, but the only way he could have gone all
:13:06. > :13:09.the way was to break the link with the trade unions, and he was not
:13:10. > :13:13.going to do that. It was not the Labour Party that founded the
:13:14. > :13:20.unions, it was the unions that founded the Labour Party. Even Tony
:13:21. > :13:24.Blair did not break the link. In that context, Ed Miliband has gone
:13:25. > :13:29.incredibly far. For the last 50 years, this opting into the union,
:13:30. > :13:32.you have to turn to page 50 of your union terms and conditions to say,
:13:33. > :13:36.do you want to opt out of the political levy 's that is going to
:13:37. > :13:43.go, which will mean that when the next Labour leader is elected from
:13:44. > :13:46.the union votes, they will get their ballot from the Labour Party and you
:13:47. > :13:51.will append the fast where ballots went out from Unison macro and GMB
:13:52. > :13:57.with a picture of Ed Miliband on the front of the ballot paper saying,
:13:58. > :14:01.vote for aid. They were Stasi and Saddam Hussein ways of trade union
:14:02. > :14:06.members electing the Labour leader, which will go. I am sorry his
:14:07. > :14:10.Lordship is not still here to answer that question.
:14:11. > :14:14.HMS Coalition is not a happy ship. The lovey-dovey days in the rose
:14:15. > :14:17.garden are long gone. It is not a loveless marriage, perhaps even an
:14:18. > :14:20.open one. The latest split is over the decision by Education Secretary
:14:21. > :14:23.Michael Gove to replace Labour peer Sally Morgan as head of the schools
:14:24. > :14:26.inspectorate, Ofsted. Mr Gove's deputy, Lib Dem David Laws, is said
:14:27. > :14:31.to be spitting blood about her removal, although only through
:14:32. > :14:36.surrogates. He has not said a word on the record. Here was the
:14:37. > :14:47.Education Secretary a little earlier. If there is another
:14:48. > :14:52.opportunity for Sally to serve in a different role at a different time,
:14:53. > :14:56.then I would be delighted to support her in the role which she thinks it
:14:57. > :14:59.is appropriate to do. There is nothing wrong with Sally but there
:15:00. > :15:04.is a principle across government that there should be no automatic
:15:05. > :15:10.reappointment, and that after three or four years, it is appropriate to
:15:11. > :15:14.bring in a fresh pair of eyes. That is good corporate practice in order
:15:15. > :15:22.to ensure that you refresh boards, bring a new perspective, and have
:15:23. > :15:25.tough questions asked. We're joined now by the newly elected deputy
:15:26. > :15:29.leader of the Liberal Democrats Malcolm Bruce. He's in Aberdeen
:15:30. > :15:36.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. David Laws is said to be furious
:15:37. > :15:40.with Michael Gove, is he? I think he is because Sally Morgan has been
:15:41. > :15:45.doing a good job and that has been generally agreed across the whole
:15:46. > :15:48.spectrum. I think Ofsted is an impartial body that inspects all
:15:49. > :15:54.schools and it shouldn't be subject to some kind of political direction.
:15:55. > :15:58.That is the concern, that she is being removed when she was doing a
:15:59. > :16:02.good job and most people thought she should be reappointed. It is
:16:03. > :16:15.strongly rumoured her successor will be a high-ranking Tory backer. Why
:16:16. > :16:21.hasn't David Laws said this himself, have you spoken to him? I have, and
:16:22. > :16:26.I know he is not very pleased about it but he will want to speak to
:16:27. > :16:31.Michael Gove himself when he gets to see him on Monday. The question you
:16:32. > :16:36.have to take on board is that David Laws is the schools minister,
:16:37. > :16:40.effectively the one who has engagement with Ofsted, and he is
:16:41. > :16:45.seeing it being undermined by the Secretary of State. There is a
:16:46. > :16:49.question that if Michael Gove is so pleased with Sally Morgan why is he
:16:50. > :16:54.replacing her, and who will he be replacing her with, and on what
:16:55. > :16:58.basis? Maybe parliament should have a confirmation hearing so that we
:16:59. > :17:07.can be assured that whoever is put in charge is there because they are
:17:08. > :17:12.good at it. Why has he licensed his surrogates to save this rather than
:17:13. > :17:17.saying it himself? He didn't, he knew I was on the programme this
:17:18. > :17:25.morning so I am giving you the answers as best I can. David is
:17:26. > :17:31.perfectly capable of speaking for himself. He hasn't so far. You asked
:17:32. > :17:36.me to come on this programme and David was anxious for me to know he
:17:37. > :17:41.wasn't happy about it, and I can certainly tell you that. I can also
:17:42. > :17:44.give you my own opinion which is that Ofsted is not the Department
:17:45. > :17:52.for Education, it is an independent body. The question you have to ask
:17:53. > :17:58.is will Michael Gove but someone in charge of Ofsted who will have a
:17:59. > :18:03.political agenda? If so, that is not what Ofsted should be used for.
:18:04. > :18:15.Let's move on to your own position. You are 69, white male,
:18:16. > :18:20.middle-class, what is your answer to the party with diversity problems? I
:18:21. > :18:24.don't think that is what they voted on. They felt I had a wealth of
:18:25. > :18:28.experience that would be vulnerable to the party from the period now
:18:29. > :18:31.until the election, not least because the central issues that will
:18:32. > :18:38.concern voters are the economy, and I have a track record of promoting
:18:39. > :18:44.the party's economic policy over many years. But you are not even
:18:45. > :18:48.standing at the next election. No, but we need to get to the next
:18:49. > :19:00.election and my colleagues have confidence that I can do a useful
:19:01. > :19:03.job for the party in that situation. We have developed and delivered
:19:04. > :19:05.policies that I have helped to shape and I want to persuade people to
:19:06. > :19:08.understand the Liberal Democrats have made a fundamental difference
:19:09. > :19:13.to the economic recovery. But you know what has been happening with
:19:14. > :19:17.the Liberal Democrats and their problems with women. Wasn't this a
:19:18. > :19:24.chance to select a woman in a major part? You only have seven female MPs
:19:25. > :19:32.out of 57, not a single Lib Dem woman in the Parliament. Again, why
:19:33. > :19:38.you rather than making a break and bringing someone in onto major
:19:39. > :19:44.positions? My colleagues have concluded that the role I am best
:19:45. > :19:50.qualified to do it, that is why they voted for me. We do only have seven
:19:51. > :20:01.women and that is an issue we need to address. Two of those women are
:20:02. > :20:07.ministers, one is a government whip. We seem to have lost our line to
:20:08. > :20:12.Aberdeen, just as Malcolm Bruce was in full flight defending his
:20:13. > :20:18.position. I'm not sure if we can get the line back, just bear with me for
:20:19. > :20:23.a few seconds to see if we can get it. It looks as if we have lost
:20:24. > :20:27.Malcolm Bruce, I do apologise to Malcolm Bruce and the viewers that
:20:28. > :20:35.we were not able to continue that interview.
:20:36. > :20:38.Fierce winds, torrential rain and a tidal surge have brought more misery
:20:39. > :20:41.to thousands. Official records show that southern England has seen the
:20:42. > :20:44.wettest January since records began in 1767. I remember it well. The
:20:45. > :20:49.Somerset Levels have been hit by weeks of flooding, with little
:20:50. > :20:52.respite from relentless rain. And, the residents of one village on the
:20:53. > :20:58.Levels, Muchelney, has been cut off for almost a month. We sent our Adam
:20:59. > :21:18.out with his wellies and a properly filled out risk assessment form The
:21:19. > :21:21.very wet road to Muchelney. This village of about 100 residents has
:21:22. > :21:29.been cut off for about four weeks, and like the weather vane, it feels
:21:30. > :21:35.a little bit spooky. It came up to here and your front door was there.
:21:36. > :21:40.Anita is just relieved the water stopped here, practically on her
:21:41. > :21:46.doorstep. Now it is the practicalities that are the problem.
:21:47. > :21:53.Driving around for food is quite a hassle. You are foraging. It's not
:21:54. > :21:57.as bad as that but we do have a few bits in the vegetable garden still,
:21:58. > :22:02.and we had some nice apples until the rats ate them but we are not
:22:03. > :22:11.doing too badly on that score. It sounds like the medieval! That's
:22:12. > :22:19.what it feels like. Talking of retro, who knew Somerset still had a
:22:20. > :22:25.Coleman, this is Brian's first delivery since Christmas. Everything
:22:26. > :22:29.has gone old-fashioned. We are now talking to neighbours we might never
:22:30. > :22:35.have seen before or spoken to so we are getting to know more people in
:22:36. > :22:39.the village. She's right, there has been an outbreak of Dunkirk spirit,
:22:40. > :22:46.quite literally. The council and the Fire Brigade have put on this boat
:22:47. > :22:56.service to get people to work and school. The church has become an
:22:57. > :23:01.unofficial flood HQ. This is where people pick up their mail, and this
:23:02. > :23:06.is where the people who run the boat stopped for their tea breaks. It all
:23:07. > :23:12.seems quite jolly, if a bit boring, but it is no fun for the homes and
:23:13. > :23:18.businesses that have been inundated, or for the farmers whose land is
:23:19. > :23:21.underwater, an area the size of Bristol, or for the villages which
:23:22. > :23:26.are less isolated but where the flooding is worse. People like the
:23:27. > :23:32.parish chairman are starting to get angry with how the Government has
:23:33. > :23:38.responded. It was all a bit late. We knew what was going to happen with
:23:39. > :23:42.the amount of rain on the fields and the Government was so slow to
:23:43. > :23:46.react. The county council got the boat going quickly but it was
:23:47. > :23:52.another four weeks nearly before the button was pressed for the major
:23:53. > :23:57.incident. Right on cue, the cavalry arrived in the shape of emergency
:23:58. > :24:01.crews from other parts of the UK. The rumour is that they will bring
:24:02. > :24:06.in a hovercraft but the bad news is that the weather is becoming more
:24:07. > :24:13.grim this weekend. There has been a surge in bookings at the campsite
:24:14. > :24:16.where people have seen the Somerset Levels on holiday and would like to
:24:17. > :24:25.come on holiday, if it ever stops raining. I'm delighted to say we
:24:26. > :24:29.have got the line back to Aberdeen, somebody has put a shilling in the
:24:30. > :24:34.meter. We can go back to Malcolm Bruce. We were talking about the Lib
:24:35. > :24:40.Dem women and your election, I suppose the point some people are
:24:41. > :24:48.making is that your party has as many knights in Parliament as it has
:24:49. > :24:55.women and you are one of them. The good news is that for the five MPs
:24:56. > :25:00.who are standing down, who have had candidates elected in their
:25:01. > :25:05.constituencies so far, all five candidates that have been selected
:25:06. > :25:08.are women. We need to fight hard to get behind those women and get them
:25:09. > :25:13.elected so that we have a much better balanced parliament in the
:25:14. > :25:16.future, but given that we have few women, you really have to pick
:25:17. > :25:34.people appropriate for the job and we have appointed the women as I
:25:35. > :25:41.have said but we need our image to be balanced. How many women
:25:42. > :25:48.candidates will there be come the next election? At the moment, 1 ,
:25:49. > :25:51.five more than we have now, and we haven't finished selection. Where
:25:52. > :25:57.there are men sitting and standing again, that is not likely to change,
:25:58. > :26:01.but where they are standing down we are overwhelmingly choosing women,
:26:02. > :26:08.and in my view good and very able women. What I would want to say to
:26:09. > :26:16.people is that if you want to see the Lib Dems have more women, go to
:26:17. > :26:23.those seats and help us hold them. We are told that only 20% of the 57
:26:24. > :26:28.seats have female candidates and in the unlikely event that you were
:26:29. > :26:34.able to hold onto them all, it still wouldn't be a sea change to have
:26:35. > :26:41.20%. The point is you have to build them up. We are supporting female
:26:42. > :26:46.candidates. These are really good candidates who will make first-class
:26:47. > :26:51.MPs and I certainly believe you will gradually see the Liberal Democrats
:26:52. > :26:55.taking them on. We don't have 3 0 seats that we currently hold like
:26:56. > :27:02.other parties, but what I can tell you is that increasing --
:27:03. > :27:09.increasingly we will have female candidates. One newspaper has said
:27:10. > :27:13.that you will deal with the Chris Rennard fallout quickly and
:27:14. > :27:18.privately, what does that mean? It means I will not be telling you
:27:19. > :27:22.because these things are not helped by comments on the airwaves. I hope
:27:23. > :27:26.it will be possible to have a resolution without people going to
:27:27. > :27:31.court but I don't think it helps anybody for me to comment on any
:27:32. > :27:36.aspect of how this will be done and I'm not prepared to do so. If you
:27:37. > :27:44.are not in full possession of the facts, why did you say you will deal
:27:45. > :27:48.with this privately? I have come into this halfway through, I don't
:27:49. > :27:56.have full possession of the facts, I doubt you do, and we have a process
:27:57. > :28:02.that needs to be followed through. Any comments in public do not help.
:28:03. > :28:09.Isn't it hypocrisy of a high order to hear from a party that is
:28:10. > :28:14.constantly calling for transparency in other institutions but when it
:28:15. > :28:18.comes to your own, you say, I am not going to talk about it. There are
:28:19. > :28:23.all sorts of disputes that happen in the world and often people don't
:28:24. > :28:27.talk about them because talking about them aggravates the
:28:28. > :28:32.situation. I believe you have to deal with them privately and I don't
:28:33. > :28:35.think trial by media in this context is helpful and I don't believe that
:28:36. > :28:41.those who choose to make those comments are making it easier to
:28:42. > :28:44.solve them. There are problems in other walks of life and the Liberal
:28:45. > :28:49.Democrats are not the only ones with these problems. We are trying to
:28:50. > :28:54.change that culture and I think we will do it effectively in our own
:28:55. > :29:05.way. We have a pastoral care officer now and I think that is the right
:29:06. > :29:09.way to do it. Thank you for that. Let's now go back to the story of
:29:10. > :29:17.the flooding in Somerset. We are joined by the leader of the Green
:29:18. > :29:22.party, Natalie Bennett in Millbank. Natalie Bennett, don't the Green
:29:23. > :29:30.party bears some responsibility for these floods? You have sided with
:29:31. > :29:35.the Environment Agency in the decision not to dredge rivers and
:29:36. > :29:39.that is one of the reason why these places have been flooded. Firstly I
:29:40. > :29:46.want to give my sympathy to everyone dealing with these floods. The
:29:47. > :29:55.homeowners, the farmers seeing sodden fields for weeks and weeks.
:29:56. > :29:58.We get that, we all have huge sympathy, particularly because so
:29:59. > :30:04.little seems to be done to help them. What is the answer to my
:30:05. > :30:09.question? I think there is strong evidence that dredging is not the
:30:10. > :30:15.answer. If you think about the flow of the river, where the pinch points
:30:16. > :30:20.are is things like bridges, weirs and towns. If you dredge the river
:30:21. > :30:24.in between those barriers, you just make the water faster to those
:30:25. > :30:29.points. The experts are saying that dredging is not the answer, it may
:30:30. > :30:33.be in particular cases, but you have to look at each river system on its
:30:34. > :30:37.own merits and very often the best way of dealing with this is working
:30:38. > :30:40.out ways to slow the watered down and make sure that people don't
:30:41. > :30:49.suffer unduly while you are doing that. The west of England
:30:50. > :30:52.agricultural Society, which I would venture knows more about the
:30:53. > :30:57.Somerset Levels than either of us, has said that without dredging, this
:30:58. > :31:00.was a disaster waiting to happen. The local drainage boards have been
:31:01. > :31:06.calling for years for dredging to be resumed. The National Farmers' Union
:31:07. > :31:10.has called for it, and the chairman of the West Sussex flood defences
:31:11. > :31:12.has called for more drainage, and he is a drainage engineer by
:31:13. > :31:17.profession. So I don't know where your experts are, but the experts on
:31:18. > :31:24.the ground am not the urban ones in London, seem to think this has not
:31:25. > :31:29.been caused, but made worse by the failure of the Environment Agency to
:31:30. > :31:32.continue to dredge. If you look at the example of the planning and
:31:33. > :31:37.climate change coalition, which is led by the town and country planning
:31:38. > :31:40.Association, who you would not describe as a group of radical
:31:41. > :31:45.greens, these people have said we have to look at how we deal with
:31:46. > :31:48.flooding in the future. But not in Somerset. These are the people
:31:49. > :31:52.currently being flooded, not somebody sitting in a quango office
:31:53. > :31:57.in London. They have asked for this to happen and it hasn't, and they
:31:58. > :32:02.are now flooded in definitely. We have to look at what is happening on
:32:03. > :32:06.a case-by-case basis. If you look at Germany, there are many cases there
:32:07. > :32:10.were, to deal with flooding, many farmers are paid to hold water on
:32:11. > :32:14.their land. Maybe we need to introduce those systems, because we
:32:15. > :32:20.have to protect farmland, but we also have to protect urban areas for
:32:21. > :32:28.safety. We saw a horrible flood in Wales were lines were endangered --
:32:29. > :32:33.where lives were endangered. That is the priority, to protect lives,
:32:34. > :32:37.property and farmland. Lives are endangered at the moment,
:32:38. > :32:43.particularly as this stagnant water turns toxic. And yet we are in a
:32:44. > :32:46.situation, again encouraged by the Greens and the lobbying Environment
:32:47. > :32:48.Agency, it says it does not want to dredge because dredging is
:32:49. > :32:54.expensive, yet it spends millions on a bird sanctuary. That is getting
:32:55. > :32:59.everything totally wrong. The government is getting everything one
:33:00. > :33:06.by cutting on flood defences. It has not cut on a bird sanctuaries. I
:33:07. > :33:14.don't know the details of that. But looking at the broader issue, we
:33:15. > :33:17.have to prepare for climate change. The government has slashed funding
:33:18. > :33:22.to the Environment Agency and has cut back on the number of staff
:33:23. > :33:24.available to deal with it and has removed the requirement on local
:33:25. > :33:31.councils to plan for climate change. These are all gambling the future of
:33:32. > :33:34.our lives and property and the future of our environment. Hasn t
:33:35. > :33:40.the high watermark of greenery now gone well past? You don't come out
:33:41. > :33:43.of the Somerset Levels with any great reputation. The UK government
:33:44. > :33:48.is now going to start fracking as quickly as it can. Brussels is
:33:49. > :33:54.loosening the CO2 obligations for 2030. The President of America is
:33:55. > :33:59.about to give the go-ahead to the keystone pipeline, a totemic issue
:34:00. > :34:03.for American greens, and your party is in a state of civil war in
:34:04. > :34:08.Brighton. It is over, isn't it? Absolutely not. We are seeing large
:34:09. > :34:16.amounts of extreme weather around the world. Any one event is whether,
:34:17. > :34:19.but we are seeing a lot of it and people are recognising that climate
:34:20. > :34:24.change is happening. If we are going to quote international experts, I
:34:25. > :34:27.can quote to you Ban Ki-Moon, the UN Secretary-General, not known as a
:34:28. > :34:32.radical green, and he said after the IPCC report came out that the heat
:34:33. > :34:34.is on and we must act. If you go to Christine Lagarde, head of the
:34:35. > :34:38.International Monetary Fund, again not a radical green, she was asked
:34:39. > :34:43.what kept her awake at night, and she said, we are not doing enough
:34:44. > :34:46.about climate change. So actually, people around the world are looking
:34:47. > :34:50.at what is happening around them are both people on the ground and people
:34:51. > :34:55.in high positions are saying we have to act on climate change. And in the
:34:56. > :35:01.case of Britain, that should absolutely not mean fracking. Sorry
:35:02. > :35:05.to interrupt, but I have evidence that you are planning a little
:35:06. > :35:09.career change. Don't go away. This is what happens when you let Nigel
:35:10. > :35:13.Farage present the weather. One thing leads to another and low and
:35:14. > :35:18.behold, the Sunday Politics now has a new traffic and travel reporter.
:35:19. > :35:24.Let's go back to Green Party leader, Natalie Bennett. Thanks, Andrew It
:35:25. > :35:29.is easy out that, so let's start with our airports. I am pleased to
:35:30. > :35:35.say that Heathrow's third runway, Boris Island and all short-haul
:35:36. > :35:40.flights are, just like our arguments, well grounded. We suggest
:35:41. > :35:47.making or alternative arrangements, like a re-nationalised rail
:35:48. > :35:51.network, although it would be a glaring omission if we did not admit
:35:52. > :35:54.that that plan is currently being delayed by Labour Party foot
:35:55. > :36:00.dragging. Speaking of trains, we are hearing that high-speed two may well
:36:01. > :36:05.be derailing, or at least getting bogged down in political fog. One
:36:06. > :36:12.viewer, Ed Balls, has texted in to say he is completely lost. Thanks
:36:13. > :36:16.for the update, Ed. You are not alone among political commuters
:36:17. > :36:21.Meanwhile, dumped UKIP manifestoes are causing major tailbacks across
:36:22. > :36:27.the South, apparently stretching all the way to Brussels. This does make
:36:28. > :36:37.driving road tricky, but UKIP's MEPs can, of course, just hop on their
:36:38. > :36:41.gravy train. The tree had a roundabout is blocked after reports
:36:42. > :36:46.of a political earthquake. It seems that a green unwound his beard to
:36:47. > :36:49.block a dodgy gas extractor. A motorist who turned out to be the
:36:50. > :36:55.environment minister object into the delay and was told to frack off as
:36:56. > :37:02.furious badgers demanded that he stopped moving the goalposts.
:37:03. > :37:07.Unregulated traffic in the city of London continues unchecked.
:37:08. > :37:11.Pedestrians should try to block bankers with sacks of loot rushing
:37:12. > :37:18.for the payments. But do beware the Lib Dem Exodus that is clogging up
:37:19. > :37:24.the motorways. Although they are in a jam, or is it a fudge, we are
:37:25. > :37:28.happy to make way for them, as, like all refugees, we say they are
:37:29. > :37:35.welcome here in muesli green. That is the travel. Back to you, Andrew.
:37:36. > :37:41.Natalie, I think you make my point. You are now preparing a new career
:37:42. > :37:44.in traffic and travel. Well, I do believe in lifelong education and
:37:45. > :37:49.that was an example of it. We know you have had a tough time today to
:37:50. > :37:56.get to our studio. Thank you for the effort.
:37:57. > :37:58.You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20
:37:59. > :38:17.minutes, we will have more hello, this is the Sunday Politics
:38:18. > :38:22.in the South East. Coming up later, patients and local politici`ns say
:38:23. > :38:26.it is bad news for care but the NHS say it will offer better spdcialist
:38:27. > :38:33.services so who is right about the closure of a mental health tnit at
:38:34. > :38:36.Medway's Maritime Hospital? Joining me to discuss that, Laura S`ndys,
:38:37. > :38:43.the Conservative MP for South Thanet, and Paul Richards, the
:38:44. > :38:46.commentator who lives in Sussex It is the first opportunity we have had
:38:47. > :38:50.to talk to Laura about her announcement that she will be
:38:51. > :38:53.standing down at the next election. You explained when you made that
:38:54. > :39:00.decision in November that you were doing it for personal reasons. Was
:39:01. > :39:05.it a difficult decision? Anx big decision is never 100% right, it is
:39:06. > :39:11.always very difficult. Prob`bly for the first time, I am putting family
:39:12. > :39:16.issues at the forefront. For me it will be really sad to not bd
:39:17. > :39:21.representing Thanet which I think is one of the most exciting and diverse
:39:22. > :39:28.and challenging but important parts of this country. I am going to miss
:39:29. > :39:32.it. You have made it clear ht is for personal reasons. Your opponents
:39:33. > :39:36.have also made much of the fact they believe you are running scared of
:39:37. > :39:42.UKIP and Nigel Farage who mhght stand against you. What was
:39:43. > :39:45.fascinating was when Nigel Farage said he might stand against me, I
:39:46. > :39:49.ended up with inundation of Liberal Democrats and Labour activists
:39:50. > :39:55.saying we will deliver leaflets for you, etc. I don't think Nigdl Farage
:39:56. > :40:01.is the problem at all. I felt reasonably confident that wd would
:40:02. > :40:04.retain the seat and I hope very much that the new candidate will do that.
:40:05. > :40:10.And I will work very hard to make sure that happens. It will be a
:40:11. > :40:15.tough fight, whoever fights it. I think the next election will be a
:40:16. > :40:20.tough fight altogether. I bdlieve that Thanet has been tradithonally a
:40:21. > :40:28.Conservative seat and I feel strongly that a good candid`te, with
:40:29. > :40:33.help from me and other people, we will retain it as a Conserv`tive
:40:34. > :40:36.constituency. Paul, a lot of people stood up in the Commons and said
:40:37. > :40:41.what a loss Laura would be to Parliament. It must focus a lot of
:40:42. > :40:48.minds, choosing to fight an election in such a tough year. Yes, we will
:40:49. > :40:52.miss Laura, it raises the whder issue of why so many MPs who came in
:40:53. > :40:55.recently are now leaving. They come in with great expectations but
:40:56. > :41:01.Parliament doesn't seem to work for some of these newer MPs and there is
:41:02. > :41:06.a question there, I think. Hs that something you would go along with?
:41:07. > :41:12.Parliament is a very unique environment. I have describdd it
:41:13. > :41:17.once or twice as an open prhson It has its personality. I think there
:41:18. > :41:25.are wider issues that we nedd to look at about X and about some of
:41:26. > :41:30.the expectations `` about politics. You are breaking out, anywax. It was
:41:31. > :41:34.meant to be the beginning of a new style of politics, the election of
:41:35. > :41:37.the first green administrathon in the country to run a local
:41:38. > :41:42.authority. Two years on, thhngs don't seem quite as positivd. On
:41:43. > :41:45.Thursday, the two main opposition Tim Brighton and, Labour and the
:41:46. > :41:54.Conservatives, joined forces to support a vote of no`confiddnce in
:41:55. > :42:06.Jason Kitcat. `` opposition parties in Brighton. How big a crishs is
:42:07. > :42:09.this for the party? We our joined by Jason Kitcat himself was th`t you
:42:10. > :42:14.said you are going to stay hn your position, are you going to tell it
:42:15. > :42:17.that things are going well? Obviously I would rather not have
:42:18. > :42:21.faced this motion but it was knowingly and intentionally an empty
:42:22. > :42:26.gesture that had no force. The opposition parties could work
:42:27. > :42:29.together to do a real motion, so choosing a new leader, but they
:42:30. > :42:34.haven't because they are sc`red to do that. The fact of the matter is
:42:35. > :42:38.we are delivering positive policies in the city with cross`partx
:42:39. > :42:43.agreement, as we did right `fter the motion was passed on Thursd`y night.
:42:44. > :42:49.I mentioned it was purely sxmbolic, albeit remarkable to have those
:42:50. > :42:52.parties working together. There are lot of accusations about yot and the
:42:53. > :42:55.main one seems to be incompdtence, that you can't balance the books,
:42:56. > :43:01.you can't come up with a decent budget, that is why you're having to
:43:02. > :43:06.raise council tax by so much. It is simply untrue. All of the fhgures
:43:07. > :43:10.show we are doing incrediblx well. We are adding private`sector jobs at
:43:11. > :43:14.a faster rate than London. We are outperforming the region in terms of
:43:15. > :43:16.our economy, our visitor nulbers are going up and we have balancdd the
:43:17. > :43:21.budget every year of our administration. No one else has had
:43:22. > :43:26.to raise council tax by quite that much. Other local authoritids are
:43:27. > :43:33.coming in below the 2% amount which would trigger a referendum. Why
:43:34. > :43:36.can't you go up by 2%? Labotr and the Tories worked together hn the
:43:37. > :43:40.first year of administration to reject the 3.5% proposal and to go
:43:41. > :43:44.for a freeze. If they hadn't have done that, we would probablx have
:43:45. > :43:48.enough resources now to not need more than 2%. He took the short`term
:43:49. > :43:55.choice then and they are re`ping what they have sown `` they took. I
:43:56. > :43:58.have the responsibility to put forward the budget I think hs right.
:43:59. > :44:04.People aren't credibly worrhed about social care. Scope, age UK, lots of
:44:05. > :44:10.people saying that social c`re in the coming years is in crishs. A lot
:44:11. > :44:14.of people are worried about the poorest people in society as well,
:44:15. > :44:18.the bills they have to pay. You say this will cost households an average
:44:19. > :44:22.of ?5 a month, that is quitd a lot to some who are already strtggling.
:44:23. > :44:28.This is another accusation, that you are not standing up for the most
:44:29. > :44:30.vulnerable in society. We brought in last year and we are keeping one of
:44:31. > :44:37.the most generous schemes of council tax support available, it is capped
:44:38. > :44:40.that no one will pay more than 3 a week, we are keeping the levels of
:44:41. > :44:46.support despite government funding reducing. People have said to us
:44:47. > :44:49.that they think the elderly, disabled and vulnerable do depend on
:44:50. > :44:53.social services from the cotncil and they want to support that. We think
:44:54. > :44:58.people should choose, at thhs critical juncture... Labour and
:44:59. > :45:07.Tories are saying they're going to cut funding for councils down to
:45:08. > :45:11.zero x 2020. `` by 2020. Yot have had quite a few bad weeks and the
:45:12. > :45:18.general narrative is that the green party are not actually very good at
:45:19. > :45:21.it. We are making those dechsions, proposing balanced budget and
:45:22. > :45:26.delivering. We are reducing our carbon foot went and increasing
:45:27. > :45:32.income from other sources. Ht fits the narrative that the two lajor
:45:33. > :45:39.parties, the idea of a new dntrant in the market of politics is
:45:40. > :45:41.threatening to them. We havd had bad politics but every administration
:45:42. > :45:46.has events that don't go thd way they would like. Fact we ard
:45:47. > :45:51.delivering three quarters of manifesto commitments halfw`y
:45:52. > :45:56.through is a strong record. One of his Labour's predecessors f`ced
:45:57. > :46:01.several votes of no confidence. All councils struggle, don't thdy? This
:46:02. > :46:05.reminds me of when militant tendency to go over Liverpool Council in the
:46:06. > :46:09.80s and drove it to the point of despair. Brighton is a once great
:46:10. > :46:17.city, now strewn with rubbish, residents are up in arms. It was
:46:18. > :46:22.under Labour, to be fair. Sdveral times over the last decade. Now the
:46:23. > :46:26.financial crisis is biting they are going to put the rates up and punish
:46:27. > :46:31.the poor. If Jason had any decency he would consider his posithon, not
:46:32. > :46:36.talking about how great he thinks things are in Brighton. He thinks he
:46:37. > :46:42.is standing up for the vulndrable in society. I think it is a unhque
:46:43. > :46:46.situation, when you unite both major parties. Not in a party polhtical
:46:47. > :46:53.way but because they are reflecting the frustration of the residents.
:46:54. > :46:55.The residents are frustrated by the situation and then they are faced
:46:56. > :47:01.not only with incompetence, but also a tax hike. You can't have ht both
:47:02. > :47:04.ways. If they are going to be competent with this money, which
:47:05. > :47:08.they haven't shown any example of doing so, there might be a reason.
:47:09. > :47:20.But we have a problem. A dotble whammy. Someone called it political
:47:21. > :47:25.twerking. They did work togdther but the divisions are very deep. One
:47:26. > :47:30.wants a council tax freeze, how are they going to run it togethdr? We
:47:31. > :47:33.are united on the basis of the frustration of the residents who
:47:34. > :47:38.cannot see a future with a council that doesn't know how to spdnd the
:47:39. > :47:43.money, isn't competent delivering and wants to put a price hike on
:47:44. > :47:47.every resident in Brighton. It has been a shambles and reduced Brighton
:47:48. > :47:52.to a national laughing stock. Anyone outside of the city thinks ht is a
:47:53. > :47:59.joke city, because of the Greens. Last word to Jason Kitcat. Ht is not
:48:00. > :48:02.the case, that is why numbers of visitors has gone up. If thdse
:48:03. > :48:06.policies are so bad, why ard both parties voting for them? Nothing
:48:07. > :48:10.would happen without the support of the other parties and they `re
:48:11. > :48:14.supporting it. This is emptx posturing and it is talking down our
:48:15. > :48:19.great city. Jason Kitcat, thank you very much for joining us.
:48:20. > :48:23.This week an envelope will land on the desk of the Health Secrdtary
:48:24. > :48:27.Jeremy Hunt. It is a letter is signed by the Chief Executive of
:48:28. > :48:36.Medway Council, with the full support of every elected melber It
:48:37. > :48:44.sets out there objection to the closure of a mental health tnit in
:48:45. > :48:49.Medway. Bipolar and hospitalised whdn her
:48:50. > :48:52.youngest child, Zach, was jtst five, Kent resident Lynn Hodges knows only
:48:53. > :48:57.too well the importance of being treated close to home. I have been
:48:58. > :49:04.in a mental hospital three times in my life. I was diagnosed with
:49:05. > :49:08.bipolar in 2004. What is kex to recovery is having family and
:49:09. > :49:12.friends nearby to help you recover. Also, the fact is you don't want to
:49:13. > :49:17.be travelling to far from your loved ones. I was very lucky that I had
:49:18. > :49:22.family who brought my familx up to see me every single day. Thhs didn't
:49:23. > :49:28.only help me, the service user, it helped my children understand the
:49:29. > :49:31.illness. But many people went now be treated close to family as the
:49:32. > :49:35.mental health ward at Medwax Maritime Hospital in Gillingham is
:49:36. > :49:39.closing. There are 35 beds hn the mental health ward here but the
:49:40. > :49:44.decision has been made to close it and move patients further afield to
:49:45. > :49:48.Dartford, Maidstone and Canterbury. Female patients have alreadx been
:49:49. > :49:52.moved but the men are still here. I had a chat with one pensiondr whose
:49:53. > :49:58.daughter was recently moved and he had to travel 600 miles in one week
:49:59. > :50:02.to visit her. Closing the w`rd leaves Medway with no acute mental
:50:03. > :50:05.health provision. This is the largest conurbation in the South
:50:06. > :50:10.East outside London and we will have no acute bed facilities, no recovery
:50:11. > :50:12.house facilities. We know that mental health services in Mddway are
:50:13. > :50:21.not good enough at any level, taking away these beds is aimed to `` is a
:50:22. > :50:25.retrograde step. The decision was made by the Kent and Medway social
:50:26. > :50:29.partnership trust which runs the mental health wards, along with the
:50:30. > :50:32.NHS Commissioning Board. Thdy say the ward is outdated and thd plan is
:50:33. > :50:36.to create so`called centres of excellence at the remaining
:50:37. > :50:40.locations, with more beds available. The decision was then approved by
:50:41. > :50:46.the Health Secretary. Medwax Council has just written to Jeremy Hunt
:50:47. > :50:49.asking him to rethink. Centres of excellence are a very good phrase
:50:50. > :50:57.for covering all manner of hssues, but if this was about somebody
:50:58. > :51:00.wanting a heart operation, or other specialist surgical requirelents,
:51:01. > :51:04.the centre of excellence dods in fact make sense. But with mdntal
:51:05. > :51:09.health, this is not about somebody having an operation. This is about a
:51:10. > :51:14.state of mind. This is about a state of well`being. Mental health issues
:51:15. > :51:20.affect a number of large people in the area. In Kent and Medwax there
:51:21. > :51:25.are between 163 and 190,000 people with common mental health problems
:51:26. > :51:30.such as anxiety and depresshon. 60,000 people with severe mdntal
:51:31. > :51:33.illness like severe depresshon or post`traumatic. And 12,000 people
:51:34. > :51:39.with severe and injuring mental illness, like schizophrenia and
:51:40. > :51:44.bipolar disorder. It is these illnesses that are most likdly to
:51:45. > :51:49.lead to hospital treatment. People are more vulnerable to common mental
:51:50. > :51:54.health problems if in debt, on low incomes or unemployed, factors that
:51:55. > :51:57.are an issue in the Medway towns. It is a hugely populated area with huge
:51:58. > :52:02.areas of deprivation and economic issues. And they need that hospital
:52:03. > :52:06.for the I know they say it hs not fit for purpose and they nedd to
:52:07. > :52:10.look at it again. I really do think they need to reconsider the options
:52:11. > :52:15.and look at ways of keeping a mental health wing at Medway Hospital. For
:52:16. > :52:19.mental health issues, peopld like Lynn Hodges say proximity to family
:52:20. > :52:23.in familiar areas play a huge part in getting better. There will soon
:52:24. > :52:28.be fewer but upgraded mental health wards. But is this really stited to
:52:29. > :52:31.the people it is intended to look after?
:52:32. > :52:35.Early I put some of those points to the chief officer of the NHS West
:52:36. > :52:39.Kent clinical commissioning group, which made the decision to close the
:52:40. > :52:43.unit along with the Kent and Medway NHS and social care trust. H asked
:52:44. > :52:47.him whether the changes will be good for patients in Medway. The aim of
:52:48. > :52:51.those changes is to improve the quality, the outcomes for p`tients,
:52:52. > :52:55.the improved chances of recovery. Most of what we are doing is all
:52:56. > :52:58.about increasing the range of services in the community. Someone
:52:59. > :53:02.having a crisis can be supported to stay at home, close to their
:53:03. > :53:07.family, with all the support they need, in a sense, brought around
:53:08. > :53:11.them at that point in time. If you need a bed, and it is a verx small
:53:12. > :53:16.proportion of the total number with severe mental problems or nded a
:53:17. > :53:20.bed, all the evidence says xou need to be in a place where you can have
:53:21. > :53:26.the best medical treatment, and that means what we are calling a centres
:53:27. > :53:29.of expertise. Surgeons use ht all the time for physical treatlent at
:53:30. > :53:33.hospitals, but where is the evidence that that will actually help mental
:53:34. > :53:37.health patients? This is not just our view, we tested the moddl we are
:53:38. > :53:41.looking at with the National clinical advisory team, a group of
:53:42. > :53:45.national experts around mental health services. We showed them the
:53:46. > :53:51.model and said, is this right? They said yes and question if we should
:53:52. > :53:55.be moving to two in Kent, not three overtime. We feel that thred is what
:53:56. > :54:01.is needed for Kent. Medway Council brought in mental health strategies
:54:02. > :54:04.to look at the changes and ` recommended to Medway Counchl they
:54:05. > :54:09.accept these changes. `` thdy recommended. You are increasing the
:54:10. > :54:12.number of acute beds and investing in services so people can bd treated
:54:13. > :54:16.in their own homes. But interestingly, both of thosd things
:54:17. > :54:19.were forced on you as a restlt of public consultation and a condition
:54:20. > :54:22.of the changes. The underlyhng suspicion is that your orighnal
:54:23. > :54:27.motive was not to increase bed numbers. I will accept that in terms
:54:28. > :54:31.of the bed numbers, the consultation raised concerns, we took those
:54:32. > :54:34.concerns seriously and said, you are right, we need to increase the
:54:35. > :54:42.numbers. We were always going to increase investment. We are treating
:54:43. > :54:46.people who are in severe crhsis Major acute mental health problems,
:54:47. > :54:50.and we are putting them in bays of three or four patients with no
:54:51. > :54:53.privacy, no way you can sit or talk to a doctor without a nurse or the
:54:54. > :54:57.rest of the patients listenhng post up if you want to go to the
:54:58. > :55:00.recreation area you have to be escorted across a public corridor
:55:01. > :55:04.which does nothing for your independence or self`esteem. If you
:55:05. > :55:09.want to have a cigarette yot go into a courtyard and the smoke drifts
:55:10. > :55:12.upwards into the cancer wards. I accept there are problems whth the
:55:13. > :55:15.hospital and it has been naled as one of the top ten mental hospitals
:55:16. > :55:19.for the number of deaths th`t happened there. But why not make
:55:20. > :55:23.changes question what we he`rd about the debt, it is the highest
:55:24. > :55:27.conurbation in the South East outside London. There is a desperate
:55:28. > :55:30.need for mental health servhces a need that will probably grow over
:55:31. > :55:36.the next few years. Why not improve what you have got and keep the
:55:37. > :55:40.services in Medway? We are developing a new personalitx
:55:41. > :55:43.disorder service in Medway, proposals around recovery houses, we
:55:44. > :55:47.are putting a huge amount of time and energy, with the council coming
:55:48. > :55:51.to enhancing the services in the community for the people of Medway.
:55:52. > :55:55.There will always be some who have a longer journey, some for whom the
:55:56. > :55:59.new arrangements are closer. The council is asking Jeremy Hunt to
:56:00. > :56:04.reverse your decision, any chance? You would have to ask Jeremx Hunt.
:56:05. > :56:09.Would you reconsider? I wouldn't, I think it is the right decishon, have
:56:10. > :56:15.spent a long time thinking `bout it, I have talked to people and experts
:56:16. > :56:19.and I think it is the right thing. Do you think they are doing the
:56:20. > :56:22.right thing? I think they are doing the right thing in terms of the
:56:23. > :56:27.hospital themselves. I am going to judge them on whether they will be
:56:28. > :56:32.truly be delivering this clhnical support in the community, at home, a
:56:33. > :56:38.wraparound service. We really are facing certain crises when ht comes
:56:39. > :56:43.to mental health provision. I think it will be very important that we
:56:44. > :56:49.are really impressed by what they do out there in the community hn Medway
:56:50. > :56:55.but also Thanet. Would you feel the same if they were closing a unit in
:56:56. > :57:00.your constituency? We need very good services and the beds themsdlves, I
:57:01. > :57:05.believe in setting conditions that we need centres of excellence.
:57:06. > :57:09.Wherever those are located, they will never be more than 40 linutes
:57:10. > :57:16.from anybody. We need the bdst treatment, not necessarily treatment
:57:17. > :57:20.in every location. Paul, yot are familiar with the situation in a
:57:21. > :57:24.Sussex, you rarely get a politician saying that closing beds in a local
:57:25. > :57:28.hospital is a good thing. The best way to make a local service popular
:57:29. > :57:31.is to threaten to close it. The issue is that the National health is
:57:32. > :57:38.was not designed to cope with mental health conditions `` the National
:57:39. > :57:42.Health Service was not designed I have simply with campaigners who
:57:43. > :57:46.feel they are losing local services. I would actually see better local
:57:47. > :57:51.services for mental health patients rather than these centres of
:57:52. > :57:57.excellence. It also sounds `s if Medway in particular could benefit
:57:58. > :58:01.from a centre of excellence... I don't disagree, I think the whole
:58:02. > :58:06.area of mental health needs to be recast. I see we are investhng a lot
:58:07. > :58:12.more money. I suffer from epilepsy, I feel that this sort of chronic
:58:13. > :58:18.conditions are not getting dnough attention and I am pushing hard to
:58:19. > :58:23.ensure that they do. Do you think the council are doing the rhght
:58:24. > :58:30.thing? The Labour Party council are saying to reverse the decishon, is
:58:31. > :58:36.it sensible? They are close to it and their residents care about it. I
:58:37. > :58:38.think they will be judged bx services on the ground with remedial
:58:39. > :58:43.centres and support given to individuals. And if the govdrnment
:58:44. > :58:47.had not wasted the money on reorganising the health services,
:58:48. > :58:55.the money would be there. I knew you would get that in. It was all going
:58:56. > :58:56.so well! Before we go, a rotnd`up of other political events you light
:58:57. > :59:08.have missed this week. We have a choice to make between
:59:09. > :59:14.protecting some of the most vulnerable in society and fhlling
:59:15. > :59:19.potholes. East Sussex Countx Council say 150 jobs should be cut `nd
:59:20. > :59:25.council tax should rise by 0.5% At Surrey, the plan is a 1.99% rise but
:59:26. > :59:29.there is a freeze at West Stssex, 2% is the threshold at which a
:59:30. > :59:34.referendum, such as in Brighton is triggered. In sandwich on the old
:59:35. > :59:39.site of a pharmaceutical firm, discovery Park will get ?6 lillion
:59:40. > :59:44.of government funding. I am sacking him as my constituent. In rdsponse
:59:45. > :59:49.to what he says was a string of abuse, Tim Lawton sent the sacked
:59:50. > :59:55.constituent a transcript of a speech which said the MP would end all
:59:56. > :59:58.Association. Mr Lawton was protected by Parliamentary privilege. Although
:59:59. > :00:01.they said they had made a mhstake, the police were unrepentant. Did you
:00:02. > :00:14.apologise to Mr Lawton? No. The issue of council tax brhngs us
:00:15. > :00:17.back to where we started. Does it feel as though even the conservative
:00:18. > :00:22.authorities are putting up two fingers to Eric Pickles? Thdy are
:00:23. > :00:26.trying to deliver services with less money. In a time of austerity there
:00:27. > :00:30.is more demand and they are all under the same squeeze. The issue
:00:31. > :00:35.is, why should the poorest people pay the price of the bankers crisis.
:00:36. > :00:40.Sounds like you are agreeing with Jason Kitcat there. I think 2% is
:00:41. > :00:44.reasonable. It is the situation may have been placed in by central
:00:45. > :00:50.government. Laura Sandys, h`ve you ever been tempted to sack a
:00:51. > :00:53.constituent? 73,000 wonderftl constituents, some of them seem to
:00:54. > :00:59.take up a lot more time than others. You know who you are! Thank you to
:01:00. > :01:02.both of my guests. More polhtical debate next week.
:01:03. > :01:12.Not a complete denial! Hopefully a Conservative mayor again.
:01:13. > :01:19.Not a good week for David Cameron on the tricky European front last week.
:01:20. > :01:24.President Hollande said he was not interested in major treaty reform
:01:25. > :01:28.for 2017. That is when Mr Cameron hopes to hold his in-out referendum.
:01:29. > :01:33.And the private member's bill to put that referendum on the statute bill
:01:34. > :01:36.was killed by Labour and Lib Dem peers in the Lords. James Wharton
:01:37. > :01:45.was the Tory MP behind the bill and he joins me now. What happens now?
:01:46. > :01:48.It is out of my hands what happens now, because Labour and the Liberal
:01:49. > :01:52.Democrats conspired in the Lords to kill off my bill. One of the options
:01:53. > :01:56.is for another private member to bring a bill forward when they have
:01:57. > :01:59.the next private member's bill at, and we can try again. The prime
:02:00. > :02:05.minister has indicated that he will support that. But whatever happens,
:02:06. > :02:12.it will be in the Conservative manifesto at the next election. Do
:02:13. > :02:14.you accept that cost this is Tory policy and not government policy
:02:15. > :02:20.that the government policy elite macro cannot bring forward a bill?
:02:21. > :02:24.That is the problem. The Liberal Democrats, despite having promised a
:02:25. > :02:26.referendum in their manifesto at the last election, now will not allow
:02:27. > :02:31.government time for a bill to enshrine that in law. That was why I
:02:32. > :02:35.brought it forward as a private member's bill. David Cameron and the
:02:36. > :02:39.Conservative Party through everything behind that. To many
:02:40. > :02:43.people's surprise, we got it through all the House of Commons stages
:02:44. > :02:46.Sadly, to their discredit, Labour and Liberal Democrat peers, doing
:02:47. > :02:52.the bidding of their masters in the Commons, is conspired to kill it. Do
:02:53. > :02:56.you accept that it is Conservative policy, but not government policy,
:02:57. > :03:00.that you could not use the Parliament act to get this through
:03:01. > :03:05.the Lords? That is not the case The Parliament act is clear that if a
:03:06. > :03:07.public bill passes through the House of Commons twice in one
:03:08. > :03:12.Parliamentary period, there is a certain amount of time that has to
:03:13. > :03:16.be between both bills being presented. There are some procedural
:03:17. > :03:21.steps to be overcome, but there is no legal reason why the Parliament
:03:22. > :03:25.act could not come into effect. I was talking about you not having a
:03:26. > :03:28.majority in this case. That remains to be seen. We saw previously that
:03:29. > :03:33.Labour and the Liberal Democrats sent enough people to frustrate its
:03:34. > :03:38.progress to make it as difficult as possible, but not huge numbers to
:03:39. > :03:43.vote against it. On a Friday, huge numbers of MPs do not attend
:03:44. > :03:49.normally. Getting that number might prove difficult. The Parliament act,
:03:50. > :03:53.which is a bit of an atomic bomb in constitutional terms, if that was
:03:54. > :04:00.used, they would turn up to vote against you. Is it not the case that
:04:01. > :04:04.after the countryside Alliance tried to involve the courts in the hunting
:04:05. > :04:10.ban that it was made clear that the Parliament act was not to be used
:04:11. > :04:13.for constitutional issues? I don't think we know how many would turn up
:04:14. > :04:17.and we don't know how they would vote. One of the things that has
:04:18. > :04:20.been revealed as I have gone through the process of getting this bill to
:04:21. > :04:25.get a referendum through the Commons is that there are big splits in the
:04:26. > :04:29.Labour Party. One of the reasons we did not see them turning up in large
:04:30. > :04:32.numbers to stop this bill from happening was that Ed Miliband knew
:04:33. > :04:36.that if he tried to lead his own MPs through the lobbies to block a
:04:37. > :04:41.bill, the only purpose of which is to let Britain decides to give
:04:42. > :04:45.people a say on membership of the union, a lot of his MPs may not have
:04:46. > :04:50.followed him. It is all fantasy politics anyway. The French
:04:51. > :04:54.president has made clear that he has no interest in treaty change this
:04:55. > :05:01.side of 2017. He would need a referendum as well . And he needs
:05:02. > :05:05.that like a hole and had. Merkel is not keen, as she is in coalition
:05:06. > :05:10.with the social Democrats. Without the French or the Germans, it will
:05:11. > :05:16.not happen, end of story. The policy is that we will try to negotiate on
:05:17. > :05:21.getting a better deal. I hear what you are saying, but I don't
:05:22. > :05:23.recognise it as reality. We have a strong bargaining position. But
:05:24. > :05:28.whatever the result of that negotiation, it will be put in an
:05:29. > :05:32.in-out vote to the Britain people. It is time people were allowed to
:05:33. > :05:36.decide. It has been over a generation since we last had a say.
:05:37. > :05:40.David Cameron has committed to delivering that referendum. The
:05:41. > :05:43.Conservative Party will have it in our next manifesto for the election.
:05:44. > :05:48.Whatever happens to my bill or any other of the bill that comes
:05:49. > :05:51.forward. If people want a referendum, the only party that can
:05:52. > :05:58.deliver that in British politics is the Conservatives. Let me bring the
:05:59. > :06:02.panel in. Nick, where is this going? It is clear to me and anyone who
:06:03. > :06:06.follows European politics that there is no appetite for major treaty
:06:07. > :06:11.change in the short run, particularly for the kind of major
:06:12. > :06:14.changes that Vista Cameron says he is going to get, and yet the Tories
:06:15. > :06:18.are talking about Europe again when they should be talking about the
:06:19. > :06:23.economy. And Francois Hollande is looking at 2017, the year we are
:06:24. > :06:26.meant to have this referendum. There will be a French presidential
:06:27. > :06:30.election going on, and Nicolas Sarkozy will be back in play by
:06:31. > :06:36.then. But James has an interesting point, which is that it is down to
:06:37. > :06:41.Angela Merkel. She would be more receptive to David Cameron's ideas
:06:42. > :06:46.of reform than people assume. She has looked over the edge at a Europe
:06:47. > :06:50.without the UK and said, that is not acceptable, and I am willing to pay
:06:51. > :06:56.a price, not any price, but a price to keep the UK in the European
:06:57. > :06:59.Union. And the French, because the UK and France are the only serious
:07:00. > :07:02.military powers in Europe, will eventually come to that position. So
:07:03. > :07:08.there is more support for David Cameron than people assume. The
:07:09. > :07:17.French are also not a strong position in terms of the euro and
:07:18. > :07:27.French economy. The Foreign Office seem a bit more optimistic about
:07:28. > :07:31.it. Of course they are. Douglas Hurd once told me, we are winning the
:07:32. > :07:34.arguments on the single currency. Of course anything from the Foreign
:07:35. > :07:38.Office comes with a health warning, but if David Cameron had won a
:07:39. > :07:43.majority and was determined to renegotiate, he is in a strong
:07:44. > :07:47.position with Merkel. There is a possibility that the French could
:07:48. > :07:54.eventually be talked around. So it is not entirely bleak on that front
:07:55. > :07:58.for Cameron. When do the Tory party managers say, look, stop banging on
:07:59. > :08:03.about Europe again? The economy is going away. We still have an
:08:04. > :08:07.electoral mountain to climb. Let's just talk about that and not be
:08:08. > :08:13.divided. They should have done that some time ago. It is already too
:08:14. > :08:19.late. The Tories need a seven point lead in the polls to get image are
:08:20. > :08:23.tea. The way things are, that would require a huge change from where we
:08:24. > :08:29.are now . It is very unlikely to happen. So all this is happening in
:08:30. > :08:34.some bizarre imaginary space with wonderful rainbows and sunshine But
:08:35. > :08:42.we can detect the beginnings of a shift in the last couple of weeks.
:08:43. > :08:47.If you talk to Tory backbenchers, Douglas Carswell is now saying in
:08:48. > :08:52.public that it is time to stop the fighting. If they are to get even
:08:53. > :09:00.close to winning the election, they can't do it if they are all against
:09:01. > :09:04.each other. I don't think it is an imaginary space. It is likely that
:09:05. > :09:08.David Cameron will have the largest party in the election. If it is a
:09:09. > :09:09.hung parliament and it is the Liberal Democrats and the
:09:10. > :09:15.Conservative Party, David Cameron will save to Nick Clegg we gave you
:09:16. > :09:20.an AV referendum, I am having this referendum. And it will be difficult
:09:21. > :09:25.for Nick to say no. Let me go back to Mr Wharton. You are going to get
:09:26. > :09:30.a referendum in the manifesto. Other than Ken Clarke, everybody wants it.
:09:31. > :09:33.So why don't you just banked that and get behind the leadership
:09:34. > :09:38.Institute causing endless problems and coming across as a Europe
:09:39. > :09:44.accessed, divided party? I am absolutely behind the leadership.
:09:45. > :09:47.David Cameron announced the policy I am trying to bring forward in this
:09:48. > :09:55.bill. It is in line with the speech he gave this time last year. But
:09:56. > :10:00.getting that commitment into law will help to kick-start the
:10:01. > :10:05.negotiation process and mean everyone will know where we stand.
:10:06. > :10:08.But whatever happens, the Conservatives are committed to
:10:09. > :10:12.delivering a referendum. And to address the point that we talk about
:10:13. > :10:17.Europe too much, that is not the case. We have a good message on the
:10:18. > :10:23.economy, on tackling immigration and reforming welfare. There is more to
:10:24. > :10:27.do, but this is also an important part of policy. But at a time when
:10:28. > :10:32.the economic news seems to be turning in your direction, you are
:10:33. > :10:37.talking about the European referendum. Your backbench
:10:38. > :10:43.colleagues are trying to change the Immigration Bill every which way.
:10:44. > :10:48.Dominic Rather is putting in an amendment is and Mr Nigel Mills has
:10:49. > :10:52.been on this programme, putting in amendments that are clearly illegal.
:10:53. > :10:55.How is that helpful? The fact is that we are in a coalition, so there
:10:56. > :10:58.are areas of policy where Conservatives might want to go
:10:59. > :11:05.further and we are not able to do that. In other areas, we are
:11:06. > :11:12.delivering good reforms. But this is not a matter of going further. The
:11:13. > :11:15.mill 's amendment was clearly a contravention of the Treaty of Rome.
:11:16. > :11:19.That is where you get the headlines from. Some of your colleagues have a
:11:20. > :11:25.death wish? Would they rather have a Miliband government if the choice is
:11:26. > :11:29.an impure Cameron one instead? I don't think anyone in their right
:11:30. > :11:36.mind would rather have a Miliband government. Then why are they
:11:37. > :11:40.behaving that way? We have had some disagreements into the leak and
:11:41. > :11:44.debate within the party, but it was talked about on the panel just now.
:11:45. > :11:48.The Conservative Party is behind David Cameron and focused on winning
:11:49. > :11:52.the next election. Europe is one part of that. We have policies in a
:11:53. > :12:00.range of areas, but we are getting back on the right track. Thank you
:12:01. > :12:05.for being patient with us. Is this ghost story going to go
:12:06. > :12:08.somewhere? Mr Laws is talking through surrogates at the moment,
:12:09. > :12:17.but there is a strategy by the Lib Dems make these differential points
:12:18. > :12:22.now. I think it is fantastic coalition sports and entertaining,
:12:23. > :12:25.but in terms of out there, it has almost no traction whatsoever. I
:12:26. > :12:29.don't think any voters know who Baroness Morgan is and it sounds
:12:30. > :12:32.like one but politicians shouting at another bunch of politicians about
:12:33. > :12:38.their ability to give each other jobs. There is a larger point about
:12:39. > :12:42.the way Michael Gove runs his government. He is notoriously a very
:12:43. > :12:46.polite man surrounded by Rottweiler is, his advisers. He has made
:12:47. > :12:50.enemies of a lot of people in the media, and some of that will come
:12:51. > :12:54.back on him in the next 18 months. We shall see if Mr Laws himself
:12:55. > :12:59.sticks his head above the parapet. That is it for this week. The Daily
:13:00. > :13:03.Politics is on throughout the week at midday on BBC Two, except on
:13:04. > :13:08.Wednesdays, when we are on at 11:30am. I will be back next week at
:13:09. > :13:15.the same time. Remember, if it is Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.