:00:37. > :00:42.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:43. > :00:46.Can Ed Davey keep the lights on Can he ever deliver cheaper power? Or
:00:47. > :00:50.the investment our energy market badly needs? We'll be asking the
:00:51. > :00:53.Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better
:00:54. > :00:58.Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We'll be quizzing Scottish
:00:59. > :01:00.Secretary Alistair Carmichael. And whatever happened to the BNP?
:01:01. > :01:12.In the South East: the Primd They could be heading
:01:13. > :01:13.In the South East: the Primd Minister says immigration is a major
:01:14. > :01:18.concern which runs the capital's Fire
:01:19. > :01:19.Service. The Mayor has a political move designed to silence his
:01:20. > :01:28.critics. And with me, as always, the most
:01:29. > :01:32.useless political panel in the business, who we're contractually
:01:33. > :01:36.obliged to insult on a weekly basis. But not today, because they are our
:01:37. > :01:44.chosen ones. They are the brightest and the best, we've even hired a
:01:45. > :01:50.plane to prove it: Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be
:01:51. > :01:53.tweeting throughout the programme. Right, left and centre of the
:01:54. > :01:56.Westminster Establishment have been unanimous in saying there would be
:01:57. > :02:01.no chance of monetary union with the rest of the UK for an independent
:02:02. > :02:04.Scotland. Then an unnamed minister spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't
:02:05. > :02:09.necessarily so, and that made the Guardian's front page. The SNP were
:02:10. > :02:15.delighted and the anti-independence campaign rushed to limit the damage.
:02:16. > :02:17.The faux pas has come at a time when the Better Together side was already
:02:18. > :02:23.beginning to worry that things were going the Nationalists' way. Let's
:02:24. > :02:25.speak to a leading light in that campaign, Scottish Secretary
:02:26. > :02:34.Alistair Carmichael, who's in Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal
:02:35. > :02:38.Democrat spring conference. Alistair Carmichael, why is there a
:02:39. > :02:49.sense of crisis now engulfing the no campaign? I think that is something
:02:50. > :02:54.of an overstatement. What you have got is, I am getting my own voice
:02:55. > :02:59.played back in my ear. What you have got here is one story from an
:03:00. > :03:04.unnamed source, a minister who we are told, we do not know for
:03:05. > :03:08.certain, who has speculated on the possibility of a currency union
:03:09. > :03:11.actually happening. I do not think that is helpful but it is not any
:03:12. > :03:16.big deal. You have to measure it against what we have got publicly
:03:17. > :03:19.named on the record. We have got a detailed intervention of the
:03:20. > :03:22.Governor of the Bank of England Mark Carney, outlining all the
:03:23. > :03:27.reasons why a currency union would not be a good idea. And then you
:03:28. > :03:31.have got independent advice from the permanent Secretary of the Treasury
:03:32. > :03:35.himself saying actually, this is such a bad idea, that I would never
:03:36. > :03:42.advise a chancellor to go ahead with it. You set one against the other
:03:43. > :03:45.and you see that pretty much the force of argument is very much
:03:46. > :03:49.against those of us who want to remain in the United Kingdom. All
:03:50. > :03:53.the minister was saying is come the day, if Westminster is negotiating
:03:54. > :03:57.with a new independent Scotland a deal is to be done, Faslane where
:03:58. > :04:03.the nuclear deterrent is, there is nowhere else in the UK to put that
:04:04. > :04:07.is, certainly not for the next 0 years, a deal would be done, the
:04:08. > :04:10.nuclear weapons would stay in Faslane and Scotland would get a
:04:11. > :04:15.monetary union with the rest of the UK. That is perfectly plausible
:04:16. > :04:20.isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is simply not plausible. The economy is
:04:21. > :04:24.more important than anything else. What you have had here is very clear
:04:25. > :04:28.advice from the treasury officials saying it is not in the economic
:04:29. > :04:32.best interests of the people of England Wales, Northern Ireland any
:04:33. > :04:40.more than it is in the interests of people in Scotland. Where do you put
:04:41. > :04:49.the nukes? The outcome will not change. Where do you put the nukes
:04:50. > :04:52.when the Nationalists kick you out? I do not believe that will be a
:04:53. > :04:57.problem because I do not believe Scotland will vote for independence.
:04:58. > :05:01.But you might be asking the Scottish Nationalists, who are apparently
:05:02. > :05:04.promoting this, are they then not sincere when they say they want to
:05:05. > :05:10.remove nuclear weapons from Scotland? It seems to be a curious
:05:11. > :05:14.mixed message. As you know, I have not got the Nationalists, I have got
:05:15. > :05:27.you, so let me ask you the questions. You are widely seen as
:05:28. > :05:29.running a campaign which is too negative. The Nationalists are
:05:30. > :05:31.narrowing the gap in the poll found you are squabbling among yourselves.
:05:32. > :05:37.This campaign is going pear shaped, isn't it? No, let's deal with the
:05:38. > :05:42.polls. All the polls show that the people of Scotland want to stay as
:05:43. > :05:47.part of the United Kingdom. Yes there were a couple of polls last
:05:48. > :05:52.week that said the gap was narrowing a little. The most recent poll of
:05:53. > :05:58.all, the poll on Wednesday which actually polled people's voting
:05:59. > :06:01.intentions on the question come September showed that only 28% of
:06:02. > :06:06.people in Scotland were prepared to say they were voting yes, as opposed
:06:07. > :06:12.to the 42% who were on our side of the argument saying they wish to
:06:13. > :06:16.remain part of the UK. That poll said women were skewing towards a
:06:17. > :06:21.yes vote and it showed that the don't knows were beginning to skew
:06:22. > :06:25.towards a yes vote. That is why you yourself wrote this morning that if
:06:26. > :06:31.your campaign does not get its act together, you would be sleepwalking
:06:32. > :06:35.into a split to quote yourself. No, to quote myself I said it was not
:06:36. > :06:40.impossible that the Nationalists could win that. That is absolutely
:06:41. > :06:43.the case. The biggest danger for the United Kingdom camp in this whole
:06:44. > :06:48.argument is people will look at the polls. They show us with a healthy
:06:49. > :07:05.lead consistently. As a consequence, they think this will not happen It
:07:06. > :07:07.can happen. I have got to tell everybody that it could, not least
:07:08. > :07:09.because the Nationalists have an enormous advantage in terms of the
:07:10. > :07:11.amount of money they have at their disposal to buy momentum. They will
:07:12. > :07:15.be advertising in cinemas, in football matches and on social
:07:16. > :07:20.media. We have got to realise what is coming and as a consequence, we
:07:21. > :07:27.have got to get our arguments in place and our campaign as sharp as
:07:28. > :07:31.theirs. Thank you for joining us. Nick, this unnamed minister who gave
:07:32. > :07:39.you the story, did he or she know what they were doing? I do not think
:07:40. > :07:44.they were sitting there wanting to blast this out there, because the
:07:45. > :07:48.agreed government position was there will not be a currency union, if
:07:49. > :07:55.there is a vote for independence. But what I was managing to get hold
:07:56. > :07:59.of whether thoughts that are in the deeper recesses of people's minds,
:08:00. > :08:03.when they are looking at the polls which have been narrowing, or there
:08:04. > :08:06.was Alistair Carmichael quite rightly says, the pro-UK vote is
:08:07. > :08:12.still ahead. People are looking down the line, what would happen after
:08:13. > :08:15.the 18th of September this year not just the next day but the next
:08:16. > :08:20.year, in those very lengthy negotiations that would take place,
:08:21. > :08:23.when there would be a lot of moving places on the table. You talked
:08:24. > :08:27.about Faslane, what would happen then and that is what I managed to
:08:28. > :08:32.get hold of, that there are thoughts about all those pieces that would be
:08:33. > :08:35.on the table. It is not surprising that some in Westminster think
:08:36. > :08:41.that. Let's take the Shadow Chancellor Danny Alexander at his
:08:42. > :08:45.word, they do not want a monetary union. But if they are faced with
:08:46. > :08:50.giving the Scots a monetary union in a post-independent Scotland, or
:08:51. > :08:54.having to remove the nuclear submarines from Faslane, where they
:08:55. > :08:59.have nowhere else to put them, probably except North America, there
:09:00. > :09:03.is a deal to be done. I think whatever minister gave Nick his
:09:04. > :09:07.story is probably onto something. If the Scots vote for independence of
:09:08. > :09:11.course a deal will be done about the currency because it is not in
:09:12. > :09:14.London's interests to have a rancorous relationship with
:09:15. > :09:22.Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not done, how does one country stop
:09:23. > :09:29.another country using its. That is different. All London can really do
:09:30. > :09:33.is prevent Scottish intervention on the monetary policy committee. The
:09:34. > :09:37.interest rate would be set without any regard to the Scottish interest.
:09:38. > :09:42.Even that is only a fatal problem if the Scottish economy becomes so out
:09:43. > :09:48.of sync with the UK economy. Except it is a problem for Scotland's
:09:49. > :09:51.financial system because if you go down that route there is no means of
:09:52. > :09:54.injecting liquidity into the financial system in the financial
:09:55. > :09:59.crisis. That is why they would rather have a monetary union. Is it
:10:00. > :10:01.not remarkable to hear the Secretary of State for Scotland here that the
:10:02. > :10:05.Nationalists are spending too much money, when he represents a campaign
:10:06. > :10:09.which brings together all the major parties in the UK and all the
:10:10. > :10:13.resources of the UK and he is bleating about the Nationalists
:10:14. > :10:19.having more to spend? I did think that was a funny line and it was in
:10:20. > :10:21.the Observer. It lays into Alex Salmond's plucky upstart idea that
:10:22. > :10:28.he's taking on this big establishment. I thought it was a
:10:29. > :10:33.bizarre open goal, I am losing my football metaphors, forgive me. The
:10:34. > :10:41.polls are so in favour of a no vote. But the trend has been going
:10:42. > :10:44.their way. We have six months left which is not enough to close the
:10:45. > :10:52.gap. They always tell you Alex Salmond is a strong finisher. The
:10:53. > :10:56.plucky upstarts have this funding from a millionaire. The Better
:10:57. > :10:59.Together campaign are being incredibly cautious about where they
:11:00. > :11:03.get their money from. They do not want to go to the City of London
:11:04. > :11:06.Police say, give us a couple of million.
:11:07. > :11:09.Being Energy Secretary used to be a bit of a dawdle, especially when
:11:10. > :11:17.North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's very much a hot potato as Ed Davey
:11:18. > :11:25.has been finding out the hard way. High household energy bills have
:11:26. > :11:31.been top of his inbox. The big six energy companies account for 95 of
:11:32. > :11:35.the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem said there had been possible tacit
:11:36. > :11:40.coordination in the timing of price rises and ordered an investigation
:11:41. > :11:43.by the competition and markets authorities which will look at
:11:44. > :11:47.whether the big six should be broken up. Where does that leave
:11:48. > :11:52.investment? The boss of Centrica made the point that you would not
:11:53. > :11:56.spend money building an extension if you knew in two years time your home
:11:57. > :12:01.might be bulldozed. The spare margin, that is what is left in the
:12:02. > :12:06.generating system to cope with a surge in demand on a cold winter's
:12:07. > :12:11.night, is due to drop to historically low levels in 2016
:12:12. > :12:16.according to Ofgem. Normally at around 15%, capacity could drop to
:12:17. > :12:22.2% after the next election and that could lead to a surge in the sale of
:12:23. > :12:25.candles. Now where is that light switch?
:12:26. > :12:33.Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me now. Oh, we have found the light
:12:34. > :12:38.switch! The gap between a peak winter demand and generating
:12:39. > :12:45.capacity could possibly reach 2 next winter or the winter after We
:12:46. > :12:49.will keep the lights on, that is for clear. When we came to power, energy
:12:50. > :12:54.investment had been relatively low. The Labour Party had failed to deal
:12:55. > :13:00.with the energy deficit. From day one we have been pushing up
:13:01. > :13:05.massively. Investment has been billion a year. Last year was a
:13:06. > :13:11.record. Spare capacity is now heading to 2%. Why are you allowing
:13:12. > :13:14.it to get that no? Because we have been increasing investment
:13:15. > :13:19.massively, last was a record level, we will be able to keep the lights
:13:20. > :13:21.on. Some of the figures you are showing suggests we are not doing
:13:22. > :13:27.anything. We have not only done enough in our last three years, we
:13:28. > :13:32.have put in measures to stimulate huge amounts of extra investment. We
:13:33. > :13:36.have the healthiest pipeline investment in our history. We will
:13:37. > :13:40.come onto investment in a minute. None of that change is the fact that
:13:41. > :13:49.we will be close to 2% next winter or the winter after that. We have
:13:50. > :13:55.one major power station shut down, or a cold winter away from having
:13:56. > :14:00.major problems with energy supply. It is still 2%. Let me explain. The
:14:01. > :14:04.figures assume we are not doing anything but we are doing something.
:14:05. > :14:08.Look at the National Grid. They are able to bring in energy from
:14:09. > :14:14.interconnector is because we are connected up to Europe. They are
:14:15. > :14:20.able to create a reserve so if we get to problems, they will have a
:14:21. > :14:26.mothballed plant they can bring on. You have not agreed with anybody on
:14:27. > :14:32.that. The decision was taken last July. But no supplier has agreed to
:14:33. > :14:38.under mothball its plant. We would not expect them to do that yet. Our
:14:39. > :14:43.plan is in place. On time, on schedule, as we already thought it
:14:44. > :14:49.would be. But you have not got a single agreement with a power supply
:14:50. > :14:56.who has mothballed plant to on the ball it. We did not expect to. Our
:14:57. > :15:00.plan is in me National Grid will do an election to allow those plants to
:15:01. > :15:03.come on. There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of
:15:04. > :15:06.power that can come in to come on. There is a huge amount of interest.
:15:07. > :15:11.There are gigawatts of power that can come into that auction and we
:15:12. > :15:15.are not other measures we can take and that is just in the short term.
:15:16. > :15:21.We have a plan for the medium-term. We will be running the first auction
:15:22. > :15:35.for new capacity. The final decision will be taken and we have learned
:15:36. > :15:37.lessons from what they do in North America and other European countries
:15:38. > :15:40.so we can stay minute mothballed plants and new plants to be built. I
:15:41. > :15:50.am absolutely clear there is not a problem. You only build 9000
:15:51. > :15:56.megawatts of new capacity from 2011-13. You have closed almost
:15:57. > :16:01.22,000 megawatts. Why would you be so cavalier with a nation's power
:16:02. > :16:04.supply? The last Government was cavalier because we knew those
:16:05. > :16:07.figures are happening because we've known for a long time a lot of power
:16:08. > :16:12.plants were coming to the end of their life, coal power plants,
:16:13. > :16:16.nuclear power plants, and we had to increase the rate of investment but
:16:17. > :16:22.we... That shows clearly you are closing twice as much, you have to
:16:23. > :16:26.date, closed twice as much as you have opened, hence the lack of spare
:16:27. > :16:30.capacity. We knew a lot of them are coming back for the last Labour
:16:31. > :16:34.Government knew. We have increased the new so that's increasing
:16:35. > :16:38.significantly, far faster than under the last Government but also
:16:39. > :16:42.remember, you were very wrong at the beginning of your clip, margins at
:16:43. > :16:49.15% are very own usual. They are historically high. The average
:16:50. > :16:54.margin was 25%. That was wasting a huge amount of money. But since
:16:55. > :16:58.privatisation, we've had margins between 5% and 10%. Normally, high
:16:59. > :17:04.margins historically, which is costly. Now we will have
:17:05. > :17:09.historically low margins. People have to pay for that, so we make
:17:10. > :17:13.sure the lights stay on, we have a short-term policy I have described
:17:14. > :17:16.to you, and medium-term policy and a long-term policy. The long-term
:17:17. > :17:39.policy comes huge investment between nuclear and optional,
:17:40. > :17:44.policy comes huge investment between on. Ofgem, Independent, says the
:17:45. > :17:49.chance of blackouts by 2016 has increased fourfold under your watch.
:17:50. > :17:58.What they say, if you read the report, if we did nothing, they
:17:59. > :18:02.would be problems. But we have been working with Ofgem. We have been
:18:03. > :18:07.working with National Grid, and we have agreed that there will be a
:18:08. > :18:10.reserve capacity which can come on if we get to the peak for the Best
:18:11. > :18:18.not just on the supply side but demand and into connectors. You talk
:18:19. > :18:21.about industry having to move to off-peak times. We say, they are
:18:22. > :18:26.prepared to that you paid for it, and it makes commercial sense for
:18:27. > :18:30.them, it's a sensible thing for the Wii will pay them to move to
:18:31. > :18:32.off-peak. You have huge diesel parks for the you talk as if that
:18:33. > :18:36.something new but it's been around for a long time for the 200 these
:18:37. > :18:41.contracts out there. We want to expand that. You have hundreds of
:18:42. > :18:47.diesel generators to click into haven't you? There's a whole range
:18:48. > :18:55.of generators. Diesel generation, dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed
:18:56. > :19:03.gas which can come. If you look at the increase of the independent
:19:04. > :19:08.generators, many companies, a range of power companies who are building
:19:09. > :19:13.a new power station and want to build new ones. This is a healthy
:19:14. > :19:17.situation. You say you made over 100 billion new investment between now
:19:18. > :19:21.and the end of the decade to restore capacity and meet renewable
:19:22. > :19:24.targets. Now you have referred the Big Six to the competition
:19:25. > :19:29.commission, how much of that to expect to come from them? We will
:19:30. > :19:33.see what the market delivers. We have always expected independent
:19:34. > :19:40.generators to do a lot more than is happening in the past. How much from
:19:41. > :19:45.the Big Six? It's not for me to say it's going to be best from that
:19:46. > :19:50.company. The real interest is we have huge amounts of companies
:19:51. > :19:53.wanting to invest. If you look at independent analysis, they say
:19:54. > :19:56.Britain is one of the best places to invest in energy in the world. We
:19:57. > :20:00.are the worldly do in offshore wind, one of the best for
:20:01. > :20:04.renewables, one of the only countries getting nuclear power
:20:05. > :20:08.stations. Rather than the bleaker picture you're painting, the reverse
:20:09. > :20:15.is the case. We are seeing an investment renaissance. You say
:20:16. > :20:20.that. Let me give you some facts. Under this Government, only one gas
:20:21. > :20:23.plant has been under construction, only one started under your watch
:20:24. > :20:28.for the others were done under Labour. You have none in the
:20:29. > :20:31.pipeline. The Big Six has pulled back from further investment
:20:32. > :20:33.including new offshore wind investment and none of what you re
:20:34. > :20:39.talking about will come before 020 anyway. That's simply not true. The
:20:40. > :20:44.balance reserves I've talked about, the reserve planned: Making sure the
:20:45. > :20:47.mothballed plant could come on, I capacity market incentivising new
:20:48. > :20:54.power, will happen way before 2 20, so that's not true. But doesn't
:20:55. > :20:57.answer the extra capacity. You have no answer between now and the end of
:20:58. > :21:03.this decade. We have three answers. Let me repeat them for you. I said
:21:04. > :21:07.permanent, not the short-term ones you are putting in place to try to
:21:08. > :21:11.do with spare capacity. We have a short-term plan, of course, that's
:21:12. > :21:15.very sensible. Medium-term plan auctioning for new power stations.
:21:16. > :21:18.That can lead to both mothballed plant and when you plant, permanent
:21:19. > :21:25.plant being built, and the long term plan, to stimulator long-term
:21:26. > :21:29.investment, some of which will be built and come online way before the
:21:30. > :21:33.end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's a far rosier picture than your
:21:34. > :21:38.painting. It's also far more expensive, too. Let's look at how
:21:39. > :21:42.you are replacing relatively cheap energy with much more expensive
:21:43. > :21:49.sources of energy. Wholesale prices is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a
:21:50. > :21:52.deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You have indexed it for 30 years at 2012
:21:53. > :22:10.prices. All of that puts up our bills. First
:22:11. > :22:15.of all, the support of the low Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has
:22:16. > :22:18.been driving peoples bills over the last decade has been wholesale gas
:22:19. > :22:24.prices. No one knows what guys prices are going to be in the future
:22:25. > :22:27.-- gas prices. When you look at the Ukraine and other market indicators,
:22:28. > :22:31.many people are worried that by the time nuclear power stations come
:22:32. > :22:34.online for example, the price of gas could be significantly higher. You
:22:35. > :22:40.have indexed linked that for them by the time you get any power from
:22:41. > :22:48.this, it'll be up to ?125 per megawatt hour. The price of gas been
:22:49. > :22:52.going up far higher. Not recently. Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not
:22:53. > :22:56.recently. The long-term forecast, Andrew, it's going to go higher but
:22:57. > :22:59.more importantly than that, this is an area we could disagree on but
:23:00. > :23:05.it's very important that power plants pay the cost of pollution. In
:23:06. > :23:08.those prizes, all of those prices except the wholesale out a steep
:23:09. > :23:13.price, you have those power stations paying the cost of air pollution. If
:23:14. > :23:19.gas and coal where paying the proper carbon price, you would see nuclear
:23:20. > :23:24.and renewables as competitive. It's very important that we ensure that
:23:25. > :23:28.power plants pay the cost of the pollution. When you were last on
:23:29. > :23:32.this programme to talk about this in May 2012, you said that the price of
:23:33. > :23:38.offshore wind was coming down fast. You told me it would be down by 30%
:23:39. > :23:43.in the next few years. That figure is 155, and for the deeper stuff,
:23:44. > :23:47.it's going to be ?165. That's the first year of a limit control
:23:48. > :23:54.framework which had it coming down. If you talk to many companies,
:23:55. > :24:04.Siemens had invested with their partners, ?310 million with two new
:24:05. > :24:09.factories. They are talking about lower prices because what they are
:24:10. > :24:13.saying to me is that, rather than the 30% cost reductions I talked
:24:14. > :24:18.about, I was wrong, they are targeting 40%. You said prices would
:24:19. > :24:22.come down 30% in two years for that that was 2012 and they have gone
:24:23. > :24:27.higher. I absolutely did not say that. Your exact quote was 30% in
:24:28. > :24:33.the next few years. Your exact few years. You said two years, I sell a
:24:34. > :24:38.few years. I haven't changed a single moment that you said two
:24:39. > :24:41.years, I said a few years. That s what we are projecting. They will
:24:42. > :24:45.come down. You have to invest in technology. Let me give you this
:24:46. > :24:49.example. When people invest in mobile phones to start off with
:24:50. > :24:58.they were expensive, and they were clunky and the costs were going down
:24:59. > :25:04.for the one final question. You put the Big Six into investigation
:25:05. > :25:06.because they made a 5% return on investment and you're done a deal
:25:07. > :25:13.with EDF, nuclear power, which will guarantee them a return of 10% 15%
:25:14. > :25:17.every year for 30 years. Doesn't that underline the shambles of your
:25:18. > :25:21.energy policy? You have mixed up two separate things. The 5% Ofgem are
:25:22. > :25:26.talking about is on the supply retail side. The percentage you
:25:27. > :25:32.quoted for EDF is in the wholesale side of two different markets. It's
:25:33. > :25:35.the same return. It's not. You are comparing apples and pears,
:25:36. > :25:40.dangerous thing to do. You have to do have a high return but in the
:25:41. > :25:48.retail market, with a 5% stake, there is less risk, says a low
:25:49. > :25:53.return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we haven't got more time. Thank you.
:25:54. > :25:57.Have me back. We will. Whatever happened to the BNP? The far right
:25:58. > :26:01.party looked as if it was on the verge of a major breakthrough not so
:26:02. > :26:04.long ago. Now it seems to be going nowhere. In a moment we'll be
:26:05. > :26:06.speaking to the party's press officer, Simon Derby. But first
:26:07. > :26:10.here's Giles. His report contains some flash photography. For a moment
:26:11. > :26:13.in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had a spring in their step, smiling at
:26:14. > :26:16.their success of winning two seats in the European Parliament. They
:26:17. > :26:20.already were the second largest party in a London council and had a
:26:21. > :26:30.London Assembly seat. Despite concerns from mainstream parties
:26:31. > :26:35.their vote was up. Our vote increased up to 943,000. Savouring
:26:36. > :26:37.success was brief that morning as anti-far right protestors invaded
:26:38. > :26:42.and egged the press conference and forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty
:26:43. > :26:45.retreat. What is more significant is that, in the years since, that
:26:46. > :26:54.retreat has been matched internally, electorally and in the minds of
:26:55. > :26:58.those who had given them that vote. For a number of years they were
:26:59. > :27:01.performing better than the UK Independence Party and other smaller
:27:02. > :27:05.parties like the Greens and respect. The problem for the BNP if they
:27:06. > :27:09.didn't make any inroads into other groups, they didn't go into the
:27:10. > :27:13.middle class, the young, they didn't go into women and ethnic minorities
:27:14. > :27:18.for obvious reasons. So the party was quickly handicapped from the
:27:19. > :27:21.outset. Not that you would have known that at the outset. In 20 6 in
:27:22. > :27:24.Barking and Dagenham, the party won 12 council seats against a back drop
:27:25. > :27:27.of discontent with the ruling Labour council and Government and picking
:27:28. > :27:37.up on immigration and housing concerns in the borough. It's
:27:38. > :27:39.because of all the different nationality people moving in the
:27:40. > :27:44.area, they are taking over everything. My Nan and grandad lived
:27:45. > :27:51.there all their lives. I thought I would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah,
:27:52. > :27:56.they will get elected over here When I came to Barking, Dagenham and
:27:57. > :28:00.Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a second largest party in one of the
:28:01. > :28:04.local councils. You can even find non-white people who voted BNP. Now
:28:05. > :28:08.they have no counsellors, and even though can when you talk to people,
:28:09. > :28:13.you will find among the older white working-class population concerned
:28:14. > :28:18.that the BNP claim to represent everyone says they are nowhere. So
:28:19. > :28:24.what happened to that about? On behalf of all the people in Britain,
:28:25. > :28:29.we in Barking have not just beaten, that we have smashed the attempt of
:28:30. > :28:36.extremist outsiders. The local Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as
:28:37. > :28:40.she is now. I always knew if we could manage to ensure that wasn't a
:28:41. > :28:43.single BNP councillor left on the council and I won my seat, it would
:28:44. > :28:47.stop the process of disintegration. But what beat the BNP here in 2 10
:28:48. > :28:50.was a mobilisation of the Labour vote. And today it is not hard to
:28:51. > :28:59.find the same discontent over the same issues. It's just finding a new
:29:00. > :29:02.political home. A couple of years ago, I used to vote Labour.
:29:03. > :29:06.Obviously, they haven't done nothing around here as much now, with jobs
:29:07. > :29:11.and unemployment, and housing and stuff like that about, basically,
:29:12. > :29:16.BNP ain't around here no more. Now it's more about UKIP and I believe
:29:17. > :29:19.that these UKIP are saying are true. If I thought BNP would make the
:29:20. > :29:25.difference, I would vote but is not in the people behind them. They all
:29:26. > :29:30.get bandaged with the same brush. I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP
:29:31. > :29:34.didn't get anywhere. What they say in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they
:29:35. > :29:38.will get somewhere. It's not racist but it's just that our kids haven't
:29:39. > :29:42.got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of UKIP is mutual but his once fellow
:29:43. > :29:45.MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the party issued a statement to this
:29:46. > :29:54.programme saying BNP failure is closer to home post 2010. It was
:29:55. > :30:08.after that election discontent arose amongst sections of the membership.
:30:09. > :30:13.Those members who left or were thrown out by Nick Griffin had
:30:14. > :30:16.already felt let down by his appearance on Question Time. It was
:30:17. > :30:24.a national platform for the BNP something they felt they had the
:30:25. > :30:32.right to through electoral success. This was no big breakthrough moment
:30:33. > :30:36.for Griffin, unlike it was for John Marina pen when he appeared on
:30:37. > :30:40.national television in France. He went on to mobilise a national
:30:41. > :30:43.force. Despite there being some voters tuned to their message, for
:30:44. > :30:47.the BNP, becoming such a force here has never looked quite so difficult.
:30:48. > :30:55.And Simon Derby from the BNP joins me now. Welcome to the Sunday
:30:56. > :31:00.Politics. It was not long ago you had 55 councillors up and down the
:31:01. > :31:06.land, you now have two. You are on the brink of extinction. That is not
:31:07. > :31:11.true. I have watched the film. It is very negative as I would expect The
:31:12. > :31:15.party has faced a few problems. The main thing to bear in mind is that
:31:16. > :31:22.the issues, the problems the country faces have gone away. We won nearly
:31:23. > :31:26.a million votes in the European elections. We brought that mandate
:31:27. > :31:38.to the establishment and we were denied. Let's face it, we would --
:31:39. > :31:42.were denied any opportunity to take place in the political apparatus.
:31:43. > :31:49.You have been destroyed by a pincer movement. UKIP has taken away or
:31:50. > :31:55.more respectable voters and the EDL is better at anti-Muslim protests
:31:56. > :32:00.and street thuggery. The EDL is not a political party. I take your point
:32:01. > :32:05.about UKIP. The power structure took a look at us and so we were a threat
:32:06. > :32:11.to power. We were not making this stuff up, we meant it and they have
:32:12. > :32:16.co-opted our message. This shameless promotion of UKIP, you have evenly
:32:17. > :32:20.had him presenting the weather on this programme. That is
:32:21. > :32:26.unbelievable. That was a joke. Across Europe, in France, your
:32:27. > :32:30.sister party the National front will probably do very well. You can see
:32:31. > :32:35.the rise of the far right across Western Europe so why are you in
:32:36. > :32:46.decline? We are not far right, I reject that label. How would you
:32:47. > :32:59.describe yourselves nationalists and Patriots. Why are you in decline and
:33:00. > :33:03.other similar parties to yours are on the rise? You mentioned Barking
:33:04. > :33:08.and it is very interesting because I was involved in that campaign. What
:33:09. > :33:13.Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party did, they replaced the white
:33:14. > :33:17.indigenous population in Barking and Dagenham with Africans, that is how
:33:18. > :33:22.they won that election. For that was true, you would be doing well
:33:23. > :33:26.elsewhere. You have now got a leader who is declared bankrupt and your
:33:27. > :33:34.party is heading for bankruptcy No, it is not. It is over. You would
:33:35. > :33:38.like that. What I would like is irrelevant. Your membership is in
:33:39. > :33:44.deep decline. All parties have highs and lows. In 2009 they said it is no
:33:45. > :33:53.way you will win any seats in the European election. We did. And then
:33:54. > :33:58.you lost them. Parties win and lose seats. The Lib Dems will be
:33:59. > :34:06.annihilated. You deny you are far right. People used to say the BNP
:34:07. > :34:13.were neo-Nazis. Then Nick Griffin appeared with Golden Dawn. They are
:34:14. > :34:20.not neo-Nazis, they are Nazis. It is part and parcel of being in
:34:21. > :34:26.politics. You have to appear with them? Of course we do, we have to
:34:27. > :34:31.speak to ordinary people. I am perfectly happy speaking to you at
:34:32. > :34:35.the BBC, the BBC have a terrible reputation but I am happy to be
:34:36. > :34:41.here. Mr Griffin has asked me, when will the BBC apologised for trying
:34:42. > :34:45.to put him in prison twice, merely for exposing a Muslim scandal. Why
:34:46. > :34:53.can't Nick Griffin appear on TV and self? He would not appear. He was in
:34:54. > :35:01.Syria. He literally flew out to Damascus and prevented a war. We
:35:02. > :35:06.decided we would not interfere in Syria. The BBC never covered that.
:35:07. > :35:09.Please do not make out we are just an ordinary political party you
:35:10. > :35:16.cover like everybody else. It is completely different. All the signs
:35:17. > :35:20.are, membership, performance at the polls, performance at elections the
:35:21. > :35:25.problem with your leadership is you are now going the way of the
:35:26. > :35:30.National front, heading for oblivion. As I said to you before,
:35:31. > :35:34.that may be the case, if all the problems we had not highlighted and
:35:35. > :35:40.how we got a huge vote so many years ago, six years ago now, five years
:35:41. > :35:45.ago, in 2009, if they were not around. These things are only going
:35:46. > :35:48.to get worse. We are looking at a prototype Islamic republic that is
:35:49. > :35:52.going to be set up in this country. That will lead to huge problems
:35:53. > :35:57.Only the British National Party are prepared to say that and deal with
:35:58. > :36:02.it. Word leaked out that I was doing this interview with you before the
:36:03. > :36:06.weekend. Isn't it a sign of how irrelevant you now are that not a
:36:07. > :36:11.single person has turned up at New Broadcasting House this morning to
:36:12. > :36:17.protest? Used to be hundreds would turn up when we said the BNP were
:36:18. > :36:20.on. That is the left for you, they put the clocks forward and they
:36:21. > :36:23.could not be bothered to get out of bed. I think they are still in bed.
:36:24. > :36:26.Thank you. You're watching the Sunday Politics.
:36:27. > :36:32.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday
:36:33. > :36:46.Politics Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes,
:36:47. > :36:53.Politics Scotland. Coming up here in Hello. Coming up: It cost the area
:36:54. > :36:57.thousands of jobs and changdd the face of the Medway towns but might
:36:58. > :37:03.the closure of Chatham docks have been a good thing? Joining le in the
:37:04. > :37:13.studio today to discuss that are Keith Glazier and a representative
:37:14. > :37:17.of labour. Welcome to you both. First, the political story of the
:37:18. > :37:22.past week was the Rumble in the jungle, Wednesday 's debate on our
:37:23. > :37:28.EU mentorship between Madur` Virage and Nick Clegg. Here is a flavour.
:37:29. > :37:31.This debate is about you and it s really simple because it's `bout
:37:32. > :37:39.your job. We are better off in Europe, richer, stronger, s`fer The
:37:40. > :37:42.debate today is between a thred status quo, defending a crulbling
:37:43. > :37:46.European Union that isn't working any more and a fresh approach which
:37:47. > :37:49.says let's be friendly with Europe, let's trade with Europe but not be
:37:50. > :37:53.governed by their institutions. In the south`east, YouTube has
:37:54. > :38:06.proven to be able potent force already. `` UKIP. They are now the
:38:07. > :38:16.official opposition on cert`in county councils and Nigel F`rr Raj
:38:17. > :38:23.says he will stand in Kent. `` Farage. I don't think there were any
:38:24. > :38:27.real winners. They both madd points but the points they were making were
:38:28. > :38:33.generally irrelevant. Neithdr of those two gentlemen will be leading
:38:34. > :38:36.the next general election or the government after the next gdneral
:38:37. > :38:40.election and so whether we `re in Europe or out of Europe, good to
:38:41. > :38:43.debate but it won't happen tnless there is a referendum for the people
:38:44. > :38:47.of this country, which of course can only be delivered if we get a
:38:48. > :38:54.Conservative government aftdr 2 15. The danger for your party is that
:38:55. > :39:00.that gave Nigel Farage a pl`tform and your leader wasn't therd to
:39:01. > :39:05.defend his policy on Europe. There is a clear policy. I don't think it
:39:06. > :39:12.needed to be defended. At the end of the day, Conservative policx quite
:39:13. > :39:16.clearly is that he will havd every opportunity to negotiate thd terms
:39:17. > :39:19.of the current deal and if that is not what this country once, they
:39:20. > :39:24.will have the opportunity to say yes or no. David Cameron was excluded.
:39:25. > :39:28.He wasn't there to put your party's points across. A lot of people would
:39:29. > :39:34.argue your party and Labour lost in that debate. It is not something I
:39:35. > :39:42.would agree with. They were going to be no winners. The people that will
:39:43. > :39:48.this country after 2015 werd not there, neither David Cameron or the
:39:49. > :39:53.Labour leader. Nigel Farage was on this programme a couple of weeks ago
:39:54. > :39:57.and he said his party is as much a threat to your party as to the
:39:58. > :40:02.Conservatives. In terms of this debate that we saw on TV, there were
:40:03. > :40:05.no real winners out of it. Lost people know how they are gohng to
:40:06. > :40:11.choose to vote. They know how they feel on Europe and on many of those
:40:12. > :40:18.issues. I don't think this debate is what made those decisions for them.
:40:19. > :40:21.Should Ed Miliband have been there? The voters are going to the polls in
:40:22. > :40:27.European elections in a few weeks time. Ed has been clear. He says if
:40:28. > :40:31.our relationship with Europd changed significantly, we would givd a
:40:32. > :40:35.referendum. That is what we have said. If the powers from Brtssels
:40:36. > :40:40.change, yes, we will deliver a referendum. At this stage, that is
:40:41. > :40:47.not the case. I don't think that this debate is where those decisions
:40:48. > :40:51.were made. We will move on. When the Prime Minister Davhd
:40:52. > :40:56.Cameron came to Peacehaven this week, which happens to be a place
:40:57. > :41:01.where UKIP Doug County Council seats from the Conservatives last May he
:41:02. > :41:05.was confronted with dramatic pictures. They showed the d`ngerous
:41:06. > :41:12.lengths migrants would go to gain illegal entry to the UK, vi` Kent.
:41:13. > :41:16.Night`time in Calais, a truck we fitted with cameras stopped at a
:41:17. > :41:23.junction near the port. In the second is, two men crawl th`n the
:41:24. > :41:26.vehicle, precariously balancing on the rear axle. These are migrants,
:41:27. > :41:31.trying to get to Britain from France. Realising we are gohng
:41:32. > :41:37.nowhere, the stowaways disappeared back into the bushes, where eight
:41:38. > :41:43.others are waiting. Hello. Do you speak English?
:41:44. > :41:53.You are risking your lives by getting on this track.
:41:54. > :41:59.We are joined by Tony Smith, who knows plenty about this isste
:42:00. > :42:09.because he used to be head of the UK border force. We thought th`t kind
:42:10. > :42:15.of situation ended with the closure of Sangatte. Grief had legal
:42:16. > :42:19.migrants massing in Calais for a decade. We have a very strong border
:42:20. > :42:26.there. We have border force officers working there, in France, whth the
:42:27. > :42:30.French authorities to get after the criminal gangs that are arr`nging
:42:31. > :42:33.this. This is big international crime and the UK and French are
:42:34. > :42:37.playing their part in stopphng it. It's a very secure border. H can say
:42:38. > :42:47.that with some authority because I was director`general of the border
:42:48. > :42:51.force. I understand you are keen to reassure people but the deptty mayor
:42:52. > :42:54.of Calais told us, he reckons 1 ,000 illegal migrants like the ones Colin
:42:55. > :42:58.film and enter the country dach year. That something like 40 per
:42:59. > :43:03.night. Do you recognise that figure? No, and I don't think we can
:43:04. > :43:08.say that because we don't know how people bash how many people enter
:43:09. > :43:11.illegally. We know how many we stop and it is around that number that do
:43:12. > :43:22.get stopped by the British authorities. Actually, they are not
:43:23. > :43:26.making it to the UK, quite ` lot of them. The lorry drivers felt
:43:27. > :43:29.strongly that the French authorities were not doing enough and border
:43:30. > :43:33.agency staff were not doing enough. They are in an awful situathon where
:43:34. > :43:40.they are trying to drive and someone is getting and need their vdhicle,
:43:41. > :43:44.and they cannot stop them. Ultimately, it is the responsibility
:43:45. > :43:48.of those who bring vehicles to this country to make sure that the loans
:43:49. > :43:53.they have and the occupants of their vehicles are legitimately entitled
:43:54. > :43:57.to come. The lorry drivers cannot just abrogate responsibilitx.
:43:58. > :44:00.Previous governments have brought in legislation to say there ard civil
:44:01. > :44:03.penalties imposed on carriers who ignore the revelations. What the
:44:04. > :44:08.border force does is help them because there is a good deal of
:44:09. > :44:12.training with the drivers and other transportation companies to work
:44:13. > :44:18.collaboratively to try to stop this business. Taking a long view, how
:44:19. > :44:22.bad have things been in terls of migrants getting through illegally
:44:23. > :44:30.in the past in your experience? The big problem which people perhaps
:44:31. > :44:33.forget is that in 2000, we had huge influxes of asylum seekers camping
:44:34. > :44:36.on the beaches in Dover. Thdre was huge pressure on the local
:44:37. > :44:40.authorities to house them and deal with them. One of the reasons that
:44:41. > :44:43.number, which was about 100,000 a year, has dropped to 15,000 a year
:44:44. > :44:47.is because of the fact we h`ve got an agreement with the French
:44:48. > :44:50.authorities when he can do this joint working in Calais. Wh`t would
:44:51. > :44:55.worry me is if we stopped doing that for whatever reason. Those numbers
:44:56. > :45:01.may start to return. Is there any more you think the government should
:45:02. > :45:05.be doing? We need a much better entry slash exit control system so
:45:06. > :45:12.we know who is leaving the country, so we can get a handle of ntmbers
:45:13. > :45:15.and stop the political rhetoric And an identity management systdm. What
:45:16. > :45:19.people are worried about is people abusing the system, come to this
:45:20. > :45:23.country, abusing the health system, the welfare system. We just don t
:45:24. > :45:27.have a robust enough identity management system to make stre those
:45:28. > :45:33.who seek the benefits are gdnuinely entitled to receive them.
:45:34. > :45:36.Immigration is an issue that is important to voters. David Cameron
:45:37. > :45:40.acknowledged it when he was in Sussex this week. It was thd focus
:45:41. > :45:44.of the debate on Wednesday night. Those pictures will play on people
:45:45. > :45:48.'s fears and for your party, immigration is an issue that people
:45:49. > :45:54.don't feel you ever had a grip on. Things were pretty bad when Labour
:45:55. > :45:57.was in power. Ed has also s`id there were things we could have done
:45:58. > :46:02.better. We did introduced the points system but it could have cole in
:46:03. > :46:06.earlier, I think. Ed has sahd that himself. In terms of illegal
:46:07. > :46:11.immigration, we need to get underneath this issue. That is the
:46:12. > :46:17.point. For instance, we need to start looking at those people that
:46:18. > :46:19.abuse the system and employdrs who refused to a national minimtm wage.
:46:20. > :46:24.We need to have better enforcement on this. We need to make sure there
:46:25. > :46:31.is stricter penalties on national minimum wage. The Coalition
:46:32. > :46:37.Government has done quite a lot to make sure the benefits systdm is
:46:38. > :46:44.less attractive. Tony... It sounds like it is a problem we might have
:46:45. > :46:48.to live with. It's not a problem we have to live with. We need to look
:46:49. > :46:53.at some of the reasons why ht is causing a problem for peopld in
:46:54. > :46:57.their lives. If they feel pdople who are coming from outside are getting
:46:58. > :47:02.employed over them, that is an issue to do with employment and how the
:47:03. > :47:04.minimum wage is enforced. When we get rogue landlords to allow
:47:05. > :47:14.immigrants to live without dnforcing some of the laws there. Keith, is it
:47:15. > :47:18.a problem in New Haven? New Haven is susceptible and the work th`t goes
:47:19. > :47:22.on there is vital. The point I would like to reiterate is the fact that
:47:23. > :47:28.people are desperately drivdn to do these things. We need to do all we
:47:29. > :47:31.can to stop them. I think the work that the border force has done is
:47:32. > :47:36.terrific and is moving in the right direction. We cannot let up. More
:47:37. > :47:41.importantly, we talk about linimum wage, but the majority of these
:47:42. > :47:46.people do not hit the formal employment so it is the black
:47:47. > :47:49.market. A lot of that is done to organised gangs and traders. The
:47:50. > :47:53.work that is going on currently needs to carry on pursuing those
:47:54. > :47:59.type of people. Your party has talked about UKIP and these pictures
:48:00. > :48:03.will play on people 's fears. Does it mean that you have to take a
:48:04. > :48:08.harder line on this issue bdcause of the threat of UKIP? We all have a
:48:09. > :48:15.duty to treat each other fahrly Whether you are Labour, Conservative
:48:16. > :48:20.or UKIP, the bottom line is people have rights and we should rdspect
:48:21. > :48:23.those. What we need to do is reinforce the fact that if xou are
:48:24. > :48:30.into this country legally, will treat you fairly and ensure that
:48:31. > :48:34.your rights are upheld. If xou are not, expect to be treated h`rshly
:48:35. > :48:42.and expect the penalties th`t we need to enforce.
:48:43. > :48:46.It is 30 years since Chathal dockyard closed, the major dmployer
:48:47. > :48:49.in the Medway Kent fans. Its closure resulted in huge job losses and
:48:50. > :48:53.changed the landscape of thd whole area. Might the closure havd been a
:48:54. > :49:02.good thing? We take a look `t some new research.
:49:03. > :49:10.It came as a hammer blow. Pdople were facing their future with some
:49:11. > :49:15.trepidation. It tore the he`rt out of the community. Completelx
:49:16. > :49:23.devastating. Chatham dockyard finally closed 30 years ago but the
:49:24. > :49:27.direct loss of 7500 jobs and some 10,000 more in associated local
:49:28. > :49:33.businesses. It was the end of over 400 years of shipbuilding hdritage,
:49:34. > :49:37.dating from before the armada to the age of nuclear submarines. We took
:49:38. > :49:43.one former worker back. What was it like here in 1980? I was a
:49:44. > :49:47.shipwright apprentice in 1980. I used to come to work on a
:49:48. > :49:51.push`bike. Had to be here for 7:30am. When you got here, ht was
:49:52. > :49:55.very noisy, very vibrant, lots of people milling around. They were the
:49:56. > :49:59.sounds of riveting as they were working on the vessels. There were
:50:00. > :50:04.warning klaxons from the cr`nes as they moved. Was it a shock when the
:50:05. > :50:07.dockyard closed? It was, in particular shock. I came into the
:50:08. > :50:14.profession expecting a job for life. It came to an untimely end.
:50:15. > :50:18.Now the picture in Medway is very different. Exclusive research
:50:19. > :50:22.commissioned by BBC Radio Kdnt concludes that is the closure of the
:50:23. > :50:26.dockyard has been very positive for Medway and for Kent. It has
:50:27. > :50:31.eliminated what it describes as unhealthy, and save jobs. It cites
:50:32. > :50:35.the transformation of the hhstoric dockyard to a tourist attraction as
:50:36. > :50:42.a key driver, contributing to the rebranding of the Medway towns. But
:50:43. > :50:47.how has it been achieved? What has made regeneration so successful is
:50:48. > :50:50.that in 1984, with the clostre of the dockyard, local politichans
:50:51. > :50:53.really did put some energy hnto getting regeneration going `nd as a
:50:54. > :50:56.result of this, we had a good partnership between national
:50:57. > :51:00.government and local governlent Also, I think we should bear in mind
:51:01. > :51:04.that during this period, we had the creation of the Medway Council, as a
:51:05. > :51:07.unitary authority. That unitary authority focused and put all its
:51:08. > :51:14.energies and strategy in regeneration. After the closure the
:51:15. > :51:20.disused site was split into several distinct areas. This is the 80 acre
:51:21. > :51:24.historic dockyard and it is the largest. ?60 million has bedn
:51:25. > :51:29.invested years since 1984. Ht now attracts over 160,000 visitors a
:51:30. > :51:34.year. As well as housing more than 100 business tenants and part of the
:51:35. > :51:39.University of camp full stop there is more commercial devout mdn to
:51:40. > :51:45.come. In total, this complex alone supports more than 650 jobs and
:51:46. > :51:52.brings in almost ?20 million a year to the Medway economy. Now, it's a
:51:53. > :51:55.much more forward`looking place It has its feet in its past and that is
:51:56. > :52:03.the role that we as a trust helped to play. Places are important to
:52:04. > :52:08.people in so many different ways. The historic dockyard and the former
:52:09. > :52:12.dockyard in the wider context is the identity of the place. The report
:52:13. > :52:16.shows that in recent years, there has been a huge growth in
:52:17. > :52:20.population, thanks in part to the redevelopment of Saint Mary 's
:52:21. > :52:24.Island, once a shipbuilding basin. It's now a thriving residential
:52:25. > :52:29.community. Chatham has also become a university town, a place whdre
:52:30. > :52:33.unemployment has dropped from more than 20% in the 80s to less than 3%
:52:34. > :52:38.today. The final phase of regeneration will be the ?640
:52:39. > :52:43.million redevelopment of Ch`tham waters. The Phoenix has risdn from
:52:44. > :52:49.the Ashes. Medway has been completely reborn and regendrated.
:52:50. > :52:54.We have a rich, multicultur`l society in Medway. It is safe, it's
:52:55. > :52:58.clean, it's green and we have tremendous success stories. Chatham
:52:59. > :53:02.is proud of its rich naval heritage and while the dockyard workdrs may
:53:03. > :53:06.have gone, Medway is continting to carve out a bold new future, based,
:53:07. > :53:10.according to the research, on a blueprint that is so successful it
:53:11. > :53:18.could be replicated up and down the country.
:53:19. > :53:24.Joining us now from Chatham is Vince Maple, the leader of the Labour
:53:25. > :53:29.group on Medway Council. Colpletely reborn and regenerated. A tremendous
:53:30. > :53:33.success. Unfortunately, that is not necessarily the picture we see in
:53:34. > :53:38.Medway. We speak to residents on a weekly basis when we are talking up
:53:39. > :53:41.and down the time. We are hdaring that the times are not what they
:53:42. > :53:45.used to be when the dockyard was here. You heard from residents at
:53:46. > :53:50.the start of the footage thdre that it ripped the heart out of our
:53:51. > :53:55.towns. Actually, in some cases, families and communities were
:53:56. > :53:59.desperately affected by that. That, in the way, was the problem. You
:54:00. > :54:06.cannot expect a job for lifd any more and in a way, the job... There
:54:07. > :54:12.was a backward looking dependency in the towns. As we look back 30 years,
:54:13. > :54:19.we need to think about what happened at the time. Looking at the
:54:20. > :54:26.situation now, where we had closures, there was more direct
:54:27. > :54:31.support. There was no minister for Chatham in 1984. The changing point
:54:32. > :54:34.was in the early 2000 is with the introduction of universities. That
:54:35. > :54:38.is a welcomed change but th`t by itself would never replace the
:54:39. > :54:44.dockyard. We heard that you might not have a Minister for Chatham but
:54:45. > :54:47.the government invested ?180 million which generated ?900 million of
:54:48. > :54:50.private investment in the area. The impetus of that dash for th`t would
:54:51. > :54:54.not have happened if the dockside and close. It also left us with a
:54:55. > :55:00.skills shortage. We know th`t numbers of families relocatdd to
:55:01. > :55:04.other parts of the country. If you look at some of the potenti`l
:55:05. > :55:07.engineering jobs and opporttnities coming up, certainly with a green
:55:08. > :55:12.economy, we are in a weaker position. We have a technic`l
:55:13. > :55:15.college coming in a couple of years and that is to be welcomed of course
:55:16. > :55:21.but it leaves us in a weaker position than other camp Unhty is up
:55:22. > :55:25.and down the UK. Regeneration is not exclusive to
:55:26. > :55:28.count, is it? New Haven sprhngs to mind. It's also a place which has
:55:29. > :55:37.been on the decline for this amount of time, 30 years. Very simhlar We
:55:38. > :55:44.are putting in investment and what is happening in Chatham is what s
:55:45. > :55:47.happening in New Haven. We, the County Council, are investing in a
:55:48. > :55:52.new road which will open a planned which will enable the new green
:55:53. > :55:58.business that will hopefullx feed the offshore... Why has it taken so
:55:59. > :56:04.long? 30 years. There is a lajor difference. We were not a m`jor
:56:05. > :56:09.shipbuilding port. The world has changed and if you don't ch`nge with
:56:10. > :56:13.it and don't start to produce the education and jobs that people are
:56:14. > :56:19.going to go on to, then I think that is where we've missed a trick. We
:56:20. > :56:25.really do need to work with young people and industry to create jobs
:56:26. > :56:29.for young people. You know the Medway towns well. You grew up there
:56:30. > :56:37.and still live there. Do yot agree with events that the closurd has
:56:38. > :56:42.left a legacy of depression? I do agree with Vince. When you're
:56:43. > :56:45.speaking to people on the doorsteps, the response that we get is not
:56:46. > :56:49.always positive. People do feel they are missing something in Medway
:56:50. > :56:52.When you look at Medway compared to the rest of the Southeast and Kent,
:56:53. > :56:58.it still has relatively high levels of deprivation. We still have
:56:59. > :57:00.relatively high unemployment, compared to the rest of the
:57:01. > :57:05.Southeast. The number of working people who are able to work, we
:57:06. > :57:08.don't have the jobs for thel. The university has been very positive in
:57:09. > :57:11.being an employer but what worries me more is the future because yes,
:57:12. > :57:16.we got investment coming in, but we've also got cuts coming to our
:57:17. > :57:20.biggest employers, the hosphtal .. The area would have suffered, the
:57:21. > :57:25.docs would have gone into decline... They wouldn't have
:57:26. > :57:31.survived this period? As we've picked up on, the skills shortage
:57:32. > :57:36.has meant people have left the Medway towns. We are a big public in
:57:37. > :57:42.`` public sector employer. Going forward, that momentum mustn't stop.
:57:43. > :57:46.This cannot just be about money We had 13 years of Labour pumphng money
:57:47. > :57:50.into these deprived areas. We are going to have to move on. You're of
:57:51. > :57:59.time. Tomorrow, all of radio Kent's
:58:00. > :58:05.daytime show `` programmes come from Chatham. Now, time for some of the
:58:06. > :58:14.other political stories you might have missed this week.
:58:15. > :58:21.Green MP Caroline Lucas was in court this week one of five chargdd with
:58:22. > :58:24.obstructing a highway and breaching the Public order act at
:58:25. > :58:29.anti`fracking protest last xear It's a charge they deny. Threatened
:58:30. > :58:37.with closure, Manston airport has the potential buyer, says Roger
:58:38. > :58:41.Gale. This week, KLM suspended its services at the airport.
:58:42. > :58:46.Greg Clark has scored a sizd Sussex partnership trust for holding mental
:58:47. > :58:52.health and alterations in c`fes They should be in a proper room The
:58:53. > :59:00.NHS says public meet ups cotld be appropriate. Have we ever offered
:59:01. > :59:03.the client only this option? No Gravesham Council bosses have been
:59:04. > :59:07.accused of taking the Mickex for planning a ?15,000 research trip to
:59:08. > :59:12.American theme parks like Dhsney World, Florida. Is this just a
:59:13. > :59:19.jolly? Definitely not. Could they have gone to Paris for example?
:59:20. > :59:28.?15,000 to go to Disney World. I find it difficult to justifx. It's
:59:29. > :59:33.hard to justify, isn't it? Xes, it is. Thank you both very much.
:59:34. > :59:35.boundaries. Sorry, run out of time. Thanks very much indeed. Andrew
:59:36. > :59:49.back to you. Now let's get more from our
:59:50. > :59:54.political panel. If the BNP finished? They were never
:59:55. > :59:57.spectacularly successful to begin with but one of my childhood
:59:58. > :00:01.memories was a huge fuss in London about the fact that they won a few
:00:02. > :00:04.council seat on the Isle of dogs back in 1993. That was enough to
:00:05. > :00:07.cause a panic. As if they are falling from a great tit and I think
:00:08. > :00:12.the big difference with the National front in France is that they are
:00:13. > :00:16.building on decades of successful that they finished second in the
:00:17. > :00:21.presence of elections in 2002, I think. And, even in the 60s, they
:00:22. > :00:25.were versions of their politics So they are building on a lot whereas
:00:26. > :00:34.the BNP are working with incredibly few raw materials in this country.
:00:35. > :00:39.It is interesting that the BNP does seem to be in decline in terms of
:00:40. > :00:45.its membership and financially, but in France, the far right party, not
:00:46. > :00:49.as far right as the BNP, but pretty far right, will probably do well in
:00:50. > :00:56.the second round of the French local elections. You could say the same
:00:57. > :01:02.about Golden Dawn in Greece. Parties prosper when the picture is
:01:03. > :01:05.pre-rolled for them. If mainstream parties talk endlessly about
:01:06. > :01:08.immigration, saying you cannot get a council house because it has gone to
:01:09. > :01:12.an immigrant instead of saying it is because there are not enough council
:01:13. > :01:16.houses, that creates the conditions in which the far right can thrive.
:01:17. > :01:21.We are lucky that all the members of the BNP fell out with each other. As
:01:22. > :01:28.extreme members of the far right and left do. You can see that with the
:01:29. > :01:35.comedian in France, he has got a lot of support from people on the left
:01:36. > :01:41.as well. I asked Simon Derby was here victim of a pincer movement
:01:42. > :01:52.that UKIP were taken away voters and EDL has captured the Street protest.
:01:53. > :01:55.Yes, and Giles still not mention that the Labour Party has got its
:01:56. > :02:00.act together. They got the act together in Dagenham. Margaret Hodge
:02:01. > :02:06.and Jon Cruddas did a very good job. I think UKIP would say, not a racist
:02:07. > :02:11.party but they are picking up votes from people who would once have
:02:12. > :02:17.voted BNP. But it is interesting the difference between Britain and
:02:18. > :02:25.France. Why is it that the Front Nationale came second in 2002 when
:02:26. > :02:31.they are not far right? I think they were on a five-year cycle because
:02:32. > :02:40.the next election was 2007. 200 they came second when Jean-Marie Le
:02:41. > :02:50.Pen came second. They are not as far right as the BNP. Marine has put
:02:51. > :02:55.them -- cleaned them up a bit. Diplomatically there is a much
:02:56. > :02:59.harder vote which spreads further across the electorate in France than
:03:00. > :03:13.there is in this country. This is a much more tolerant country. If
:03:14. > :03:17.Marine Le Pen does well today, she will not win that many because the
:03:18. > :03:21.centre-right and centre-left will always gang up against terror in the
:03:22. > :03:27.second round, but it sets the tone for the European elections. It does
:03:28. > :03:31.and for the next French presidential election as well. I think what she's
:03:32. > :03:36.doing masterfully is combining a far right politics with what you might
:03:37. > :03:41.call a far left economic politics. She's not just picking up votes from
:03:42. > :03:46.xenophobes, she is picking up votes from who feel victimised from
:03:47. > :03:50.globalisation. They are people who would be voting for socialists but
:03:51. > :03:53.are put off by the current president. That is what I do not
:03:54. > :03:58.think the British far right parties have been able to do. You sort Simon
:03:59. > :04:03.Derby try to tell you that the BNP are not far right party. I think he
:04:04. > :04:06.was going to say if you look at issues of protectionism, standing up
:04:07. > :04:13.against globalisation, they are quite statist. That is where the
:04:14. > :04:18.phrase National Socialist comes from. That is why a little bit of
:04:19. > :04:22.electoral success is often a killer for far right parties. They get a
:04:23. > :04:26.few council seats and then they are rubbish. They are not getting
:04:27. > :04:29.people's bins collected so they become part of the system that
:04:30. > :04:35.people were voting against in the first place. Lets go on to the
:04:36. > :04:39.Labour Party. If you are a Labour Party supporter and you want to be
:04:40. > :04:44.cheered up, you pick up the Sunday Times where you see a poll where the
:04:45. > :04:48.leader is up to seven points. If you are Tory Lib Dem and you want to be
:04:49. > :04:54.cheered up, you pick up the Observer, the left-wing paper, where
:04:55. > :04:58.the Labour leader is still 1%. I have read in the paper that there is
:04:59. > :05:03.quite a lot of of the record briefings going on at the top of the
:05:04. > :05:08.Labour Party. Give us a sense of the mood. Clearly, they are unsettled.
:05:09. > :05:18.One pol looks OK but there has been a run of polls where there is a lead
:05:19. > :05:25.over the Tories which is closing. There are worrying number of people
:05:26. > :05:29.who are what are called the 35s and they are people who thought all the
:05:30. > :05:33.Labour Party needs to do is sit still because there are a number of
:05:34. > :05:38.Liberal Democrat voters who hate the coalition. Because the Conservatives
:05:39. > :05:42.did not get through the boundary changes they needed to win, we can
:05:43. > :05:47.sit tight and it will all be fine. What a few wise old heads are
:05:48. > :05:52.concerned about is they feel this has a feel of 1987 about it when the
:05:53. > :05:57.Labour Party was united. They had a very good leader. The leader was
:05:58. > :06:01.impressive, the party was united and then what happened? They met the
:06:02. > :06:06.British people and an election. The British people said, terribly sorry,
:06:07. > :06:10.you are not occupying the party political territory where we will
:06:11. > :06:14.vote for you. There are some people from the Blair era who say it feels
:06:15. > :06:21.a bit complacent and there may be a bit of a shock when they meet the
:06:22. > :06:25.voters. We talk about people being unsettled but Ed Miliband is not
:06:26. > :06:29.unsettled. His defining characteristic is you might call it
:06:30. > :06:33.steadiness or you might call it a lack of agility. He could not
:06:34. > :06:37.respond to the pension stuff in the budget which was thrown at him. But
:06:38. > :06:40.he's very good at separating the signal from the noise. They may
:06:41. > :06:45.think this will all change in me. The Tories may be on the back foot
:06:46. > :06:49.after the European elections. He has the ability to set the political
:06:50. > :06:57.weather. He did it with the price freeze. There is no doubt that Mr
:06:58. > :07:00.Davey would not be referring these energy companies to the competition
:07:01. > :07:04.authorities if it had not been for that speech by the Labour leader.
:07:05. > :07:08.And we read today he has come up with another policy which will be
:07:09. > :07:13.attention grabbing to cut student tuition fees. It is easy to forget
:07:14. > :07:18.that before he announced the price freeze he was in as much vertical
:07:19. > :07:25.trouble as he is now. I think the Labour poll lead will expand up to
:07:26. > :07:31.five or 6% by the summer, assuming the Tories do badly. The question
:07:32. > :07:37.is, is five or 6% enough? Nick through the analogy with 1987. This
:07:38. > :07:41.reminds me of the Conservatives in 2009/10. You have a steadily sinking
:07:42. > :07:45.poll lead, differences in what campaign they should be running and
:07:46. > :07:50.personal animosity behind the scenes. It led to them throwing away
:07:51. > :07:57.an election which seemed to be winnable. There is an important
:07:58. > :08:00.difference with the 1980s which was because you did not know when the
:08:01. > :08:06.election would be. Will it be in 87 or 88? They do not need to make up
:08:07. > :08:09.their mind until next year. What they are telling the pollsters now,
:08:10. > :08:12.we do not like this government because of course, you do not like
:08:13. > :08:18.the government. But next January or February they will be making up
:08:19. > :08:23.their minds. Is there a lot of animosity among the leading Labour
:08:24. > :08:27.figures behind-the-scenes? It must be personal or tactical because
:08:28. > :08:33.there are not big ideological differences between them, is there?
:08:34. > :08:38.Yes and no. What is striking is how little support Miliband gets from
:08:39. > :08:43.the shadow cabinet. He does not have outriders. That has been a
:08:44. > :08:48.continuous theme. Said he feels he is on his own? That they feel they
:08:49. > :08:55.do not get support from him. There was a column by Jenni Russell saying
:08:56. > :09:01.he is distant and detached. And Andrew Walmsley touched on this in
:09:02. > :09:06.the Observer. One of the divisions is Ed versus Ed. There is a terrible
:09:07. > :09:10.structural problem between those two. It is a real problem. Ed
:09:11. > :09:16.Miliband believes Ed Balls has not done enough to get economic red
:09:17. > :09:19.ability. Ed Balls believes Ed Miliband is making airy fairy
:09:20. > :09:24.speeches and it will not cut with the electorate. Neither Mr Cameron
:09:25. > :09:28.nor Mr Miller band took part in the debate which happened earlier this
:09:29. > :09:34.week between the Lib Dems and UKIP. We have got another one coming up on
:09:35. > :09:39.the BBC on Wednesday night. Let s remind ourselves of what happened in
:09:40. > :09:47.last week's debate. I will ask Nick to open the batting.
:09:48. > :09:53.We are better off in Europe... Frankly not working any more. A
:09:54. > :09:59.referendum on Europe. I agree with you. I agree with you. If you can
:10:00. > :10:09.read the small print. Pull up the drawbridge, pool drawbridge up. . We
:10:10. > :10:15.have 485 million people... It is simply not true! Not true. Not true.
:10:16. > :10:23.Not true. Identical with Nick. I don't agree with Nick. Based on
:10:24. > :10:29.facts, facts, the facts, facts, the facts... Thank God we did not listen
:10:30. > :10:37.to you. The food is getting better here. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You
:10:38. > :10:44.have never had a proper job. Great not little England. Good night.
:10:45. > :10:49.I think it is seven o'clock BBC Two. Helen, what was the outcome of that
:10:50. > :10:54.and how do we mark our card for this week? It was not a great time for
:10:55. > :10:59.pundits. Everybody called the debate for Nick and then they said
:11:00. > :11:06.actually, we think it has gone the other way. Consensus emerged later
:11:07. > :11:09.on that Nick Clegg made a difficult argument. I think the most important
:11:10. > :11:14.thing Nigel Farage said was he distinguished out the immigration
:11:15. > :11:18.policy by saying we're not just closing day over, we want people to
:11:19. > :11:21.come, we just do not want mass EU immigration. That is an important
:11:22. > :11:26.thing for him to say to get away from the echoes of the far right. I
:11:27. > :11:34.suspect Nick Clegg will not ask us to read the small print. That was 11
:11:35. > :11:38.turn he took. It compounded his reputation for being sneaky. I
:11:39. > :11:44.slightly disagree about the pundits. I say this as someone who thought
:11:45. > :11:49.far it would win. -- Nigel Farage would win. The fact that the public
:11:50. > :11:56.disagree with you and the public favoured Nigel Farage does not mean
:11:57. > :12:02.the public were wrong. The question is, who is going to tune in for the
:12:03. > :12:08.second one? What is the answer to that? Phil Collins argument is a man
:12:09. > :12:13.who is on 8% is fantastic. It is a binary choice in this debate.
:12:14. > :12:17.Clearly they need to brush up on opposite areas. Nigel Farage needs
:12:18. > :12:20.to brush up on facts and Nick Clegg needs to brush up on the motions
:12:21. > :12:26.because he did not connect very well. Where Nick Clegg may go after
:12:27. > :12:30.Nigel Farage is when the -- when he said the EU has blood on its hands
:12:31. > :12:35.with Ukraine. He then came back to talk about the vanity of EU foreign
:12:36. > :12:40.policy and said European Union had made what was going on in Syria
:12:41. > :12:43.worse. It is one thing to say I do not think the UK should be part of
:12:44. > :12:47.the joint European foreign policy, it is part of another thing to say
:12:48. > :12:51.that Europe which will act with or without the UK is responsible for
:12:52. > :12:56.blood on the streets of Kiev and also responsible for exacerbating
:12:57. > :13:03.the Civil War in Syria. Maybe an hour is too long for Nigel Farage's
:13:04. > :13:07.shtick? That may be the case but Nick Clegg has precedence. He does
:13:08. > :13:11.that show and he has had to deal with the worst thing with dealing
:13:12. > :13:16.with what is thrown at him so he has honed his view consistently. We will
:13:17. > :13:20.see what happens in part two. That's all for this week. The Daily
:13:21. > :13:24.Politics is on BBC Two at lunchtime every day this week. I'll be here
:13:25. > :13:26.next week at the usual time of 1 o'clock. Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:27. > :13:33.it's the Sunday Politics.