:00:33. > :00:37.Aternoon folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. As MPs head off for
:00:38. > :00:43.their Easter break, campaigning for the European elections in six weeks'
:00:44. > :00:46.time gets underway. In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate the
:00:47. > :00:48.issues at stake on May 22nd with senior party figures from the
:00:49. > :00:58.Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats, and UKIP. And as ever
:00:59. > :01:00.we'll be discussing the week ahead with our panel of top political
:01:01. > :01:08.commentators. with our panel of top political
:01:09. > :01:12.And in the South East: From Turners to Constables ` many councils hold
:01:13. > :01:13.substantial art collections. Should they sell up in tough financial
:01:14. > :01:18.times, or get more art newspapers which some claim are
:01:19. > :01:23.politically slanted and not impartial about informing people of
:01:24. > :01:27.local services. So all that to come between now and
:01:28. > :01:30.quarter to four and for the next thirty minutes or so we'll be
:01:31. > :01:33.debating the European elections Here in the studio we have Syed
:01:34. > :01:36.Kamall, leader of the Conservatives in the European Parliament, Richard
:01:37. > :01:39.Howitt, chair of the Labour group of MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader
:01:40. > :01:49.of the Lib Dems in Europe, and Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of
:01:50. > :01:52.communications. Welcome to you all. In a moment, all four will give us
:01:53. > :02:01.their opening pitch for the elections. A little earlier they
:02:02. > :02:04.drew lots to decide who'll go first. And that privilege goes to Syed
:02:05. > :02:10.Before that, though, here's a quick reminder of what all the fuss is
:02:11. > :02:14.about. The vote to choose members of the
:02:15. > :02:18.European Parliament takes place on Thursday the 22nd of May. The same
:02:19. > :02:21.day as local elections are held in England and Northern Ireland. The UK
:02:22. > :02:25.sends 73 England and Northern Ireland. The UK
:02:26. > :02:29.sends NTP is to Brussels. And the vote is a form of proportional
:02:30. > :02:36.representation. In total, there are 751 MEPs from the 28 member states.
:02:37. > :02:40.What do they do all day? The European Parliament's power has
:02:41. > :02:44.grown. A vet of the EU commissioners and they can amend, approve or
:02:45. > :02:50.reject nearly all EU legislation and the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have
:02:51. > :02:57.been responsible for include price caps on mobile phone chargers,
:02:58. > :03:03.banking regulation and cover food regulation two -- labelling.
:03:04. > :03:09.Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds. Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe
:03:10. > :03:13.needs to change. And our relationship with Europe needs to
:03:14. > :03:16.change. Only the Conservatives have a plan to deliver that change and of
:03:17. > :03:21.the British people and in-out referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems
:03:22. > :03:26.will not and UKIP simply cannot Only the Conservatives will offer
:03:27. > :03:31.the three yards, with Conservative MEPs working alongside a
:03:32. > :03:36.conservative Prime Minister. For, really is and above all a
:03:37. > :03:41.referendum. Sarah Ludford is next. Your choice is simple. If you think
:03:42. > :03:45.Britain is better off in Europe vote for the Liberal Democrats. The
:03:46. > :03:49.Lib Dems are the only party of Ian, fighting to keep Britain in Europe
:03:50. > :03:53.and in work. There is nothing patriotic about UKIP's desire to
:03:54. > :03:58.pull-out. That is playing Russian roulette with Britain's economy and
:03:59. > :04:02.jobs. The Conservatives are flirting with exit and Labour lacks the
:04:03. > :04:09.courage to speak up. Thought Liberal Democrat on May the 22nd to say in
:04:10. > :04:14.Europe for jobs and security. Sarah Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from
:04:15. > :04:19.Labour. The European elections are about who represents you. They are
:04:20. > :04:23.not a referendum on a referendum. Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs
:04:24. > :04:27.and growth first. A guarantee to help young people into work,
:04:28. > :04:31.reforming energy markets so that bills are brought down for good
:04:32. > :04:36.Labour believes in reform in Europe, but within. It is David Cameron who
:04:37. > :04:40.is risking your job and Britain s prosperity because of divisions in
:04:41. > :04:45.his own party. Labour MEPs put British interests first. Our fourth
:04:46. > :04:53.opening statement from Patrick O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a
:04:54. > :04:56.declining regional trade bloc in an era of global trade. It is a
:04:57. > :05:01.20th-century political project designed to prevent conflict in
:05:02. > :05:05.Europe that is now reawakening old hostilities. It is an attempt to
:05:06. > :05:13.force on the European people European this as their primary
:05:14. > :05:16.collective identity. It has hollowed out British democracy and now we do
:05:17. > :05:22.not even control our own borders. That is why you should vote UKIP.
:05:23. > :05:25.That is the opening statements. Let's get on with the debate. Why
:05:26. > :05:32.should people vote in the selections? If you vote UKIP, we can
:05:33. > :05:35.deliver an earthquake that will rock the foundations of British politics
:05:36. > :05:40.and the European political class. We can send a signal to Europe that
:05:41. > :05:46.Britain has had enough, that Britain wants to retain its nation state
:05:47. > :05:50.status and regain political power and the ability to forge trading
:05:51. > :05:57.deals across the world. Britain leading Europe to freedom twice in
:05:58. > :05:59.the last century through bloodshed. We feel that a UKIP win in those
:06:00. > :06:07.elections could help Britain set an example to lead European nation
:06:08. > :06:11.states back to free assembly again. Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that
:06:12. > :06:16.many Tory voters will vote you clip to keep you honest, to keep your
:06:17. > :06:19.feet to the fire? Whatever you think of the European Parliament or the
:06:20. > :06:24.EU, the fact is that the European Parliament as equal power with the
:06:25. > :06:30.28 governments of the EU. When David Cameron delivered the first cut to
:06:31. > :06:33.the EU budget, the first ever cut, he needed a strong team of
:06:34. > :06:40.Conservative MEPs working alongside him. But many of your supporters
:06:41. > :06:49.will vote for UKIP for the reasons I gave. Many will vote Liberal
:06:50. > :06:51.Democrat. Not very many. Many of our supporters will vote for us because
:06:52. > :06:55.we are the only party trying to change the EU and offer reform. We
:06:56. > :07:00.have offered renegotiation and a referendum. And how would you vote
:07:01. > :07:06.in such a referendum? We have no idea whether he would vote yes or
:07:07. > :07:12.no. Let him answer. I will answer that question. If the EU continues
:07:13. > :07:15.on this road, towards a United States of Europe, and if there was
:07:16. > :07:21.no change at the time of the referendum, then I would probably
:07:22. > :07:24.vote to leave. You have no confidence in David Cameron? We
:07:25. > :07:26.Javier Culson opportunity to read negotiate our relationship with
:07:27. > :07:30.Europe and the Conservatives are at the forefront of that agenda. David
:07:31. > :07:38.Cameron have not given a list of demands. He said that if things do
:07:39. > :07:43.not change, he will probably vote to leave, is that right? If at the time
:07:44. > :07:47.of the referendum, things had not changed, I would vote to leave and
:07:48. > :07:53.we have a golden opportunity to perform the agenda. Richard, the
:07:54. > :08:01.last time the British people had a say on this was over 40 years ago.
:08:02. > :08:07.Under a Labour government. Which was deeply divided on the issue. And
:08:08. > :08:13.that was a say on the common market. Today's EU is a very different
:08:14. > :08:17.animal from the common market. Why can we not, under another Labour
:08:18. > :08:24.government, have another vote? First of all, we want it to be more than a
:08:25. > :08:28.free trading area. We make no apologies about that. But in the
:08:29. > :08:31.elections because this is half of Britain's exports and investment. If
:08:32. > :08:35.you care about your job and business, you cannot hear from the
:08:36. > :08:39.party of government that they probably want you to leave because
:08:40. > :08:43.the CBI, the engineering employees in Federation and the chimp of
:08:44. > :08:48.commerce, 80% of them say it is necessary to stay in. So why not
:08:49. > :08:52.give us a vote? When David Cameron says he wants to repatriate social
:08:53. > :08:58.powers, he means takeaway maternity rights and holidays. If the case is
:08:59. > :09:05.so strong, why not give us an in-out vote? David Miliband has said that
:09:06. > :09:10.there will be a referendum if there was a proposal to change powers Why
:09:11. > :09:14.wait? This is based on a series of reforms. Labour has a set of
:09:15. > :09:17.reforms. David Cameron is silent about what they would be. That is
:09:18. > :09:21.because he knows that if he put them forward, they would either be
:09:22. > :09:25.unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic backbenchers and he would be out of
:09:26. > :09:32.a job, or they would be unacceptable to European leaders. Why is your
:09:33. > :09:36.leader missing in action? Ed Miliband is unable to say even the
:09:37. > :09:43.positive things that you are saying. He has run away from the argument.
:09:44. > :09:47.He actually said there would not be a referendum in his time.
:09:48. > :09:55.For a conservative to say they will have a referendum but not give the
:09:56. > :10:01.reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity
:10:02. > :10:04.in that debate. He said that the Eurosceptic view was to leave
:10:05. > :10:11.Britain like Billy no mates. I can say that he is the best qualified
:10:12. > :10:15.person to say that. Sarah Ludford, you have said that lots of people
:10:16. > :10:18.are going to vote Lib Dem but that is not what the polls are saying.
:10:19. > :10:22.You are 7% in two polls this morning. Eclectic's decision to
:10:23. > :10:27.champion Europe has been a disaster for you. You face wet out. We swayed
:10:28. > :10:33.a lot of people our way with Nick Clegg's debate. Where is the
:10:34. > :10:39.evidence? We are the only party that is completely united, saying that we
:10:40. > :10:41.are wanting to stay in. It is essential because formally and jobs
:10:42. > :10:46.are supported by our trade with the EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding
:10:47. > :10:50.a lot of moderate conservative voters are actually fed up with the
:10:51. > :10:59.Tories being split and divided all over the place. Syed Kamall saying
:11:00. > :11:04.that we might vote in rout. -- in or out. We are consistent. A poll in
:11:05. > :11:09.London showed that 18% would vote for us. I am delighted about that.
:11:10. > :11:14.London is not the whole country it may surprise you. We need to move on
:11:15. > :11:18.to immigration, an important issue. We are a member of the EU and the
:11:19. > :11:23.rules say that with a few caveats, our fellow EU citizens are free to
:11:24. > :11:28.come here if they want. Why can we not just accept that? Britain has a
:11:29. > :11:32.proud record when it comes to immigration. We have been open to
:11:33. > :11:36.people across the world for centuries. But we welcome people who
:11:37. > :11:40.come to our country to contribute to pay taxes and two wards are a
:11:41. > :11:44.society positively. But there are three real concerns that we have to
:11:45. > :11:48.address. The first one is numbers, and secondly people who may come
:11:49. > :11:53.here not to work but for benefits, and thirdly, getting a hang of the
:11:54. > :11:57.numbers. I think it is shameful that only this week the office for
:11:58. > :12:01.National said that they did not collect sufficient figures under a
:12:02. > :12:06.Labour government. 350,000 extra people came in and they did not
:12:07. > :12:11.count the numbers. That is the size of a city like Cardiff. That is
:12:12. > :12:16.shameful. 350,000 came from all over the place. Do you accept the free
:12:17. > :12:21.movement of peoples within the EU? I accept and am open to people who
:12:22. > :12:26.want to come here and contribute. In the same way... Do you accept the
:12:27. > :12:33.free movement of peoples within the EU? In our manifesto, we have said
:12:34. > :12:36.it is an issue for reform. We have to make sure that people are coming
:12:37. > :12:43.here to work and contribute positively, not simply to come here
:12:44. > :12:47.and take advantage of the system. I will tell you what else is
:12:48. > :12:50.shameful. What is shameful is David Cameron making a pledge to the
:12:51. > :12:54.British people on an issue that they really care about, to bring net
:12:55. > :12:59.immigration down to the tens of thousands a year, having no means of
:13:00. > :13:03.fulfilling that pledge. And we see now it is back up to 212,000 a year
:13:04. > :13:08.because we have no volume control and no quality control from
:13:09. > :13:12.immigration from our neighbours And that is a disgrace. How could UKIP
:13:13. > :13:17.address that issue? Because we would leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You
:13:18. > :13:21.do not have a single member of Parliament. He will not get a single
:13:22. > :13:30.member of Parliament. How are you... ? TUC are hoping to get an
:13:31. > :13:41.MEP. What do you say? -- he is here today hoping to get an MEP. All of
:13:42. > :13:47.-- almost 2 million Brits live and work in the rest of the EU. Is that
:13:48. > :13:54.worth having? The majority are wealthy, retired people. Why do not
:13:55. > :13:57.object to bilateral agreements with countries with similar living
:13:58. > :14:01.standards to us. France, the Netherlands, that works fine. But
:14:02. > :14:05.these three people want Turkey to join the EU, 75 Na Li and people
:14:06. > :14:18.running our country, only 10% of which... Syed Kamall is Michael year
:14:19. > :14:21.to say whether they are in favour of free movement for work, not for
:14:22. > :14:30.benefits... That is what I'm saying. You said you were unable to
:14:31. > :14:32.be clear. That leaves 2 million British people absolutely unsure as
:14:33. > :14:36.to whether they would have a right to continue to live in other
:14:37. > :14:41.countries. It is a two-way street. You are putting those people in a
:14:42. > :14:43.state of uncertainty. EU migrants have been good for the British
:14:44. > :14:46.economy and contribute far more than they take out in services and
:14:47. > :14:54.benefits. One in seven businesses were founded in -- by migrants. And
:14:55. > :15:01.they cannot just turn up and claim benefits. The coalition government
:15:02. > :15:05.has legislated to make sure that they cannot claim for three months.
:15:06. > :15:13.They will not be able to claim for more than six months. Richard
:15:14. > :15:20.Howitt, Jack Straw said it was A spectacular mistake for Labour to
:15:21. > :15:25.allow EU migrants from Poland and Hungary to work in the UK from
:15:26. > :15:29.2004." Why should we trust a party that makes spectacular mistakes and
:15:30. > :15:34.hasn't apologised for it? We accept it is a mistake and I apologise We
:15:35. > :15:38.make a firm commitment for new EU states we will put down transitional
:15:39. > :15:41.controls. When I listen to the Conservatives and UKIP trying to
:15:42. > :15:45.re-write history, saying immigration was out of control, uncontrolled,
:15:46. > :15:51.open door, we hear it over and over again. It is not true. Anyone who
:15:52. > :15:57.was around at the time... Come on, Richard. Hold on, you undercounted
:15:58. > :16:02.by 350,000. You were letting 2 million in over the years, an
:16:03. > :16:09.under-counted by 350,000 people you didn't know came in. You should have
:16:10. > :16:15.tightened the benefit rules. The Conservative MEP today has, in four
:16:16. > :16:19.years in government in Britain, is trying it blame the previous Labour
:16:20. > :16:24.Government over the fact they won't count people in or people out.
:16:25. > :16:31.Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for people to come to the country and
:16:32. > :16:36.benefits are changing, changing the habitual residence test and we are
:16:37. > :16:39.going to say that migrants can't come and claim child benefit if
:16:40. > :16:42.their children are outside the country. Labour a has shown they
:16:43. > :16:48.have listened to concerns but we say it is a stronger, better, country
:16:49. > :16:51.because it is diverse and multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy
:16:52. > :16:56.politics from all the Peters. They are committed to a system with no
:16:57. > :16:59.volume control and no quality control. You talk about benefits as
:17:00. > :17:05.if it is only out of work benefits. In work benefits cost a lot of money
:17:06. > :17:13.for the British taxpayer. Big businesses bring in minimum wage
:17:14. > :17:18.workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool place What are you going to do? Have
:17:19. > :17:24.all the pensioners come back to Britain? How will will you fund the
:17:25. > :17:28.health care? Do you really think Spain and pour tu ghal their current
:17:29. > :17:34.situation, are going to turn their backs on British property owners
:17:35. > :17:40.with wealth? -- Portugal. They might not wanting pensioners to use their
:17:41. > :17:45.health service. Pensioners often come back to Britain to use the
:17:46. > :17:48.health service. You have shown it represents wealthy people's
:17:49. > :17:54.interests. A second Conservative Party. Hang on a minute... Blue
:17:55. > :17:58.collar wages were down. They want it character for the National Health
:17:59. > :18:01.Service, have cuts that go farther and comprehensive education. This is
:18:02. > :18:05.a debate on the wider politics between Conservatives and UKIP and
:18:06. > :18:10.Labour will... You can't both talk time. UKIP - they haven't thought it
:18:11. > :18:14.through, thousand they will have trade access in the EU, hasn't
:18:15. > :18:17.thought how they will have trade deals that the Liberal Democrats
:18:18. > :18:21.support, like with the United States: Would you have a cap on
:18:22. > :18:26.non-EU immigrants? We are not in favour of a cap. No cap on either.
:18:27. > :18:31.No. Well it is a target. It is a moving feast, as it were. Would you
:18:32. > :18:35.have a limit on non-EU limits? We have limits on quality. We have
:18:36. > :18:40.people who are skilled migrants coming in. Lip its? . By quality,
:18:41. > :18:47.not by quantity. -- Limits. How do you do that? We need to move
:18:48. > :18:51.on to foreign affairs. Should we pool more sovereignty to
:18:52. > :18:56.give the European Union more clout in foreign and defence matters? I'm
:18:57. > :19:00.Labour's defence and foreign affairs spokesperson. No we don't need to
:19:01. > :19:05.pull more powers into Europe. As we undertake this live debate there are
:19:06. > :19:10.guns being fired in Ukraine as we speak. Europe is facing, for the
:19:11. > :19:14.first time, since the end of the Second World War, Armies crossing
:19:15. > :19:18.national borders and floatening peace. Doesn't it -- threatening
:19:19. > :19:23.peace. Doesn't it need to come together of the We don't need more
:19:24. > :19:30.powers. We need political will. With Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has
:19:31. > :19:34.-- we have fallen short in the sanctions. But it is Europe, not
:19:35. > :19:39.Britain. Remember Putin calling Britain little England a small
:19:40. > :19:42.island with no influence. Labour doesn't agree with that. But if
:19:43. > :19:45.that's the mindset that allows someone like Vladimir Putin to send
:19:46. > :19:50.troops across borders threatening peace, it is worrying. And when we
:19:51. > :19:54.have, in UKIP a party that say they admire Putin and support his
:19:55. > :19:59.policies, that is no recipe for how Europe should be wrong. I was
:20:00. > :20:07.waiting for that. Let me ask him. We don't admire Putin as a leader. .
:20:08. > :20:11.Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage said, was he admired him as a
:20:12. > :20:15.political operator. Testifies Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good
:20:16. > :20:21.foreign policy was speaking softly but carrying a big stick. The EU
:20:22. > :20:25.shouts its mouthed off while carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy
:20:26. > :20:29.that you wiebl it stand up to Putin over the Ukraine. -- that you would
:20:30. > :20:34.be able to stand up. Do you admire what Putin is doing in the Ukraine?
:20:35. > :20:39.No. What matters in foreign policy is the outcould. We have a terrible
:20:40. > :20:43.outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria, and Georgia... What would UKIP do?
:20:44. > :20:49.What u skip would do, would be to keep our people safe -- UKIP.
:20:50. > :20:55.How? And not commit our Foreign Office and troops Foreign wars.
:20:56. > :21:00.Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel
:21:01. > :21:04.Farage said in previous debates that Britain should leave the EU because,
:21:05. > :21:10."We have had enough of endless foreign wars." Which wars has the EU
:21:11. > :21:14.taken us into? The EU has ban very important factor in the push towards
:21:15. > :21:24.trying to get military intervention in Syria, for example. What wars has
:21:25. > :21:29.the etch U taken us into it -- EU. Fortunately the EU doesn't have its
:21:30. > :21:36.own army yet. It has wanted to sign up to an expansionist agenda. Did it
:21:37. > :21:40.want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP opposed Iraq, so did most of the
:21:41. > :21:47.mainline Europeans. Germany was against Syria and Libya. No EU
:21:48. > :21:52.policy. We had an Anglo French deal on Syria. A by lateral deal. A
:21:53. > :21:57.European dimension. No, buy lateral. We have a European Union that wants
:21:58. > :22:02.to expand ever-more into other people's spheres of influence. If we
:22:03. > :22:08.are going to stand up to what Putin is do, which obviously Nigel Farage
:22:09. > :22:11.has no intentions of doing, you have to get your act together on economic
:22:12. > :22:16.sanctions and diplomatic force and in trade matters, in supporting
:22:17. > :22:22.eastern European countries. Sayeria, who and whose army? And NATO and
:22:23. > :22:26.working transatlanticically, is important through NATO. I will come
:22:27. > :22:33.to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said that the idea of an EU Army was "A
:22:34. > :22:38.dangerous fantasy that is simply not true ""Why then, are we already
:22:39. > :22:41.working on etch U-owned and controlled drones -- EU-owned and
:22:42. > :22:47.the President of the European Parliament has said that the
:22:48. > :22:50.majority of MEPs want the EU to have "deployable troops." He is not
:22:51. > :22:55.speaking for me or Liberal Democrats. The EU does not and will
:22:56. > :22:58.not have an army. Our defence is mainly shaped through NATO. He is
:22:59. > :23:02.President of the Parliament What we must do is to get equipment which
:23:03. > :23:07.can operate together. We waste an awful lot of our spending in Europe
:23:08. > :23:11.because we duplicate equipment. We don't get the bang for our bucks
:23:12. > :23:16.that we should. It is a useful role for the EU, to get equipment working
:23:17. > :23:21.together. That doesn't make sense. You say military equipment, a NATO
:23:22. > :23:27.job. No, the EU, there is a kind of dimension of the EU members of NATO,
:23:28. > :23:32.in working together on a common quument o o so they can talk to each
:23:33. > :23:36.other -- on common equipment, so they can talk to each other. The EU
:23:37. > :23:40.has a role but not an army. So a European defence agency, that helps
:23:41. > :23:43.our defence industries and those jobs are extremely important and
:23:44. > :23:49.would be threatened if the Conservatives and UKIP took us out
:23:50. > :23:53.of Europe but it is 100 years since the start of the fist world war
:23:54. > :23:57.Remember that Europe was set up to try to get a secure peace within
:23:58. > :24:01.Europe T succeeded. Now look on Ukraine but also on the southern
:24:02. > :24:05.borders to the Arab Spring countries in North Africa. It is more
:24:06. > :24:10.important than ever that we work to keep keep peace and stability on our
:24:11. > :24:14.borders. Can I say to Syed and the Conservative MEPs. You talk about
:24:15. > :24:18.the three Rs, I have a fourth, retreat. If you take us out of the
:24:19. > :24:25.European Union, it will be the worse retreat by Britain since Gallipoli.
:24:26. > :24:28.Let him answer If he wants answers -- the British Parliament is the
:24:29. > :24:32.right place with a British Foreign Secretary to decide our foreign
:24:33. > :24:38.policy. You say that, but can I quote David Cameron, this is germain
:24:39. > :24:43.to what you are saying, David Cameron said "There is no doubt that
:24:44. > :24:47.we are more powerful than Washington, Beijing and Delhi,
:24:48. > :24:50.because we are a powerful player in the European Union." Do you agree?
:24:51. > :24:53.He is saying that there are times when it comes to international
:24:54. > :24:57.foreign affairs when you have to cooperate with partners. Often they
:24:58. > :25:02.are EU partners but often they are not. The problem we have...
:25:03. > :25:08.Washington have made it very clear that it wants Britain to talk
:25:09. > :25:13.through Brussels. No, not at all. Talk through the French and
:25:14. > :25:18.Italians, come on, wake up? Through the EU collective. I'm vice chair of
:25:19. > :25:21.the EU delegation. I hear it from the American counterparts. They want
:25:22. > :25:26.the EU to get itself together and not least on Ukraine. Why should our
:25:27. > :25:30.sovereignty be at the behest of .. ? I want to hear from Syed calm
:25:31. > :25:33.amplgts the British Parliament is the right place to decide our
:25:34. > :25:37.foreign poll sinchts sometimes we work with our European partners
:25:38. > :25:41.sometimes we work with our non-European partners. It is our
:25:42. > :25:48.choice to pull sovereign trito work together. G, we move on to our foirt
:25:49. > :25:55.area. We hear a lot in this country about MPs expenses. Snted the real
:25:56. > :26:01.scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't the real scandal, the MEPs gravy
:26:02. > :26:07.train? You all have your snouts The trough? I don't think so. There is
:26:08. > :26:11.transpancy. The way we use our expenses is online and anyone can
:26:12. > :26:17.ask to examine those. We have actually voted to reform MEPs'
:26:18. > :26:20.allowances. We regularly vote but unfortunately the majority in
:26:21. > :26:26.Parliament don't. Have you voted to cut them? Yes. By how much? About
:26:27. > :26:31.5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies I never fly except across the
:26:32. > :26:38.Atlantic. Difficult to do it any other way. I didn't swim.
:26:39. > :26:43.But we voted for economy flutes We voted for European Parliament policy
:26:44. > :26:48.of transparency which other groups haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote.
:26:49. > :26:53.They don't earn their salaries. Dhoent do anything. They should hand
:26:54. > :26:57.their salaries and allowances back. You can't ause UKIP of being on the
:26:58. > :27:03.gravy train and the other that we don't claim our attendance allowance
:27:04. > :27:07.because our MEPs are not there. Your attendance allowance is if you are
:27:08. > :27:11.there, you are saying we don't turn up You are in the building and claim
:27:12. > :27:14.the allowances. You are not an MEP, UKIP are so ashamed of what their
:27:15. > :27:20.MEPs have done in Brussels, they didn't field a sitting MEP for
:27:21. > :27:24.today's debate. I think each party decides who it wishes to field. I
:27:25. > :27:29.have the honour of being the UKIP representative. I would say by going
:27:30. > :27:37.in the past few weeks, xeeming to me saying - we are sick of the others.
:27:38. > :27:41.-- people saying to me. : We are quite excited. Can I ask Patrick
:27:42. > :27:47.O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord and his party is strong in the polls
:27:48. > :27:52.today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't you also struck a chord with hip
:27:53. > :27:57.crasscy. Two of your MEPs were jailed for expenses and benefits'
:27:58. > :28:01.fraud. Two more asked to pay back ?37,000 for using European funds.
:28:02. > :28:06.Nigel Farage has boosted about getting ?2 million in expenses and
:28:07. > :28:09.he went on to employ his wife as a secretarial allowance after telling
:28:10. > :28:15.other members not to People who do wrong and break the law, go to ja. I
:28:16. > :28:19.have no time. -- go to jail. People who spend money they are not
:28:20. > :28:24.entitled to should pay it back and that's right. But what UKIP does and
:28:25. > :28:28.the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the allowances they are given to pursue
:28:29. > :28:31.the political agenda they put up when elected which is to get Britain
:28:32. > :28:38.out of this superstate. Instead of using it for parliamentary work
:28:39. > :28:42.Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We were the first British political
:28:43. > :28:47.party to have independent audits of our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way
:28:48. > :28:52.before the expenses crisis blew up. The Maria Miller scandal has of
:28:53. > :28:56.course hit David Cameron and the Conservative Party hard as it should
:28:57. > :29:00.do. But you are right, even in my own region you have UKIP candidates
:29:01. > :29:04.and councillors who have been charged with fraudulently filling
:29:05. > :29:09.out election papers and other shot lifting. Another independent inquiry
:29:10. > :29:12.found he made racist comments. We had a European candidate last week
:29:13. > :29:17.in Hertfordshire who got a parking ticket from the police and called
:29:18. > :29:23.the police fascists. These people aren't here.
:29:24. > :29:28.I'll let you have a quick reply We can bring up parochial cases. Let
:29:29. > :29:32.him answer. Not so long ago a Liberal Democrat councillor was sent
:29:33. > :29:37.down for firebombing, I don't say they are a bunch of arsonists, but
:29:38. > :29:44.now I think, Nick Clegg might have burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad
:29:45. > :29:49.you pronounced that word carefully. Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they
:29:50. > :29:55.are strongly critical of the EU s financials saying "Errors permist in
:29:56. > :30:00.all main spending areas", the financials are poorly managed. It is
:30:01. > :30:06.a shambles And that's something that all parties agree on. As we agree on
:30:07. > :30:10.expenses, the British parties are at the forefront of transpancy. Every
:30:11. > :30:14.year when we vote for the discharge of the budget, the Conservatives
:30:15. > :30:17.also vote for it but we don't get enough MEPs from other countries to
:30:18. > :30:20.investigate in favour. The Liberal Democrats have put forward to make
:30:21. > :30:26.each Finance Minister, George Osborne and his counterpart to sign
:30:27. > :30:29.a declaration to say all EU money is properly spent in my country.
:30:30. > :30:34.Funnily enough they don't want to do that but I look forward to you
:30:35. > :30:40.confirming that George Osborne will sign it. All the time we hear it is
:30:41. > :30:45.about the money we pay in, about ?150 per family per year. What about
:30:46. > :30:50.the money that comes back? ?1. billion that comes to Britain's
:30:51. > :30:54.regions because of being in Europe. I myself helped to negotiate a fund
:30:55. > :30:58.to help Britain's food banks to ensure so. Poorest and most
:30:59. > :31:02.destitute people... Isn't it our money that went there first. Can I
:31:03. > :31:05.tell you the Conservative-led Government have blocked us from
:31:06. > :31:08.claiming that money. If you want to have the clearest choice at these
:31:09. > :31:19.European elections, it is between... Tell us why. It affects our rebate.
:31:20. > :31:26.Tony Blair gave away our rebate He is quite right. Lib Dems fought to
:31:27. > :31:30.make sure that we apply for money to help with flooding. That is what the
:31:31. > :31:34.Tories were blocking. If you want the clearest example at the European
:31:35. > :31:39.elections, the Conservative Party and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers
:31:40. > :31:45.bonuses, and then blocked a Labour victory to get money for free
:31:46. > :31:51.banks. We need to move on to the future. It is important and people
:31:52. > :31:55.are watching. The EU's Justice Minister says that we need to build
:31:56. > :32:02.a United States of Europe with the commission as its government. Is she
:32:03. > :32:07.right? Not at all. But the future, if we take the next ten years,
:32:08. > :32:10.thinks about climate change and the fact that we are not going to hit of
:32:11. > :32:15.the two degrees target. Europe has led and needs to lead towards
:32:16. > :32:20.getting a new sustainable world It is the political will to use these
:32:21. > :32:24.powers, so she is wrong. It is about the threats from abroad. Labour
:32:25. > :32:28.reforms like getting a commissioner for growth and rebalancing the
:32:29. > :32:31.budget, reforming the common agricultural policy, all of those
:32:32. > :32:38.things will need to happen to make Europe more democratic and open But
:32:39. > :32:43.against the rise of Brazil and China... We do not need more
:32:44. > :32:49.treaties and powers. We need more action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah
:32:50. > :32:53.Ludford, you would sign up to that? No. Unless they do not think that
:32:54. > :33:00.should concentrate on institutional matters. What we need to do is
:33:01. > :33:03.concentrate on making Europe progrowth and competitive and create
:33:04. > :33:10.more jobs in a competitive world. We need more trade deals to open up our
:33:11. > :33:15.exports, we need to streamline the EU. We need less red tape and
:33:16. > :33:19.Liberal Democrats have done a lot on that. We need better scrutiny of EU
:33:20. > :33:27.legislation at West Munster because the national parties... More powers
:33:28. > :33:35.or less for the EU government? In some areas, I would like to see it
:33:36. > :33:39.slimmed down. Including, I am not sure whether the EU should be
:33:40. > :33:44.funding food banks. I think that is a national responsibility. Dearie
:33:45. > :33:50.me. The EU have to concentrate on the economy and climate change. This
:33:51. > :33:54.is the coalition talking. If we want to fritter away political capital on
:33:55. > :33:58.things which are interfering in national matters, then we do not
:33:59. > :34:03.have the support to tackle those big challenges. Would you still want to
:34:04. > :34:12.join the Euro one-day? Now is not a good idea. We wanted the Eurozone to
:34:13. > :34:15.still be sound, which is why... Did not ask you that. Do you want to
:34:16. > :34:20.join the Euro one-day? If it is a success and it did the economy. Now
:34:21. > :34:28.is not the time but in principle, the idea of a single currency has
:34:29. > :34:32.advantages. That was a yes. We are not ruling it out for ever but not
:34:33. > :34:37.in the foreseeable future. It is not on the horizon. What would our
:34:38. > :34:41.relationship be with Europe in the future if UKIP got its way and we
:34:42. > :34:46.left? We would be trading partners with Europe and we would seek
:34:47. > :34:51.partnership in specific serious I'd tell you what, can I just say..
:34:52. > :34:53.Would we be Norway? We would be stronger than Norway because we are
:34:54. > :34:58.the biggest export market in the Eurozone. We can negotiate a bespoke
:34:59. > :35:03.trading agreement reflecting our enormous importance. Not on
:35:04. > :35:09.services, which make up 80% of the economy. We are the biggest export
:35:10. > :35:13.market in the Eurozone. Our biggest exports are services and they would
:35:14. > :35:18.have to agree to free trade and services. They still have not. Can I
:35:19. > :35:22.read you something? Let me read you something. There would be a free
:35:23. > :35:28.trade agreement in place the day after our exit. Germany would demand
:35:29. > :35:33.no less. Who said that? Not somebody from UKIP, but Digby Jones. Mr
:35:34. > :35:38.business. He is talking about goods, not services. Norway has that
:35:39. > :35:43.and they have no say. You would have to accept the EU rules without any
:35:44. > :35:48.say. No MEPs are commissioners. Let me give you another. Enough. One is
:35:49. > :35:55.enough. Syed Kamall, is it not looking forward pretty much Mission:
:35:56. > :36:02.Impossible for Mr Cameron to get anything like the repatriations of
:36:03. > :36:09.powers that would satisfy your irreconcilables? My father was a bus
:36:10. > :36:12.driver in the 50s and one of the reasons I am here today is because
:36:13. > :36:15.he told me that you can achieve anything if you work hard. He said
:36:16. > :36:19.to me, do not listen to the doubters. When people tell you that
:36:20. > :36:22.something cannot be done, it is a sign of their limitations, not
:36:23. > :36:25.yours. They said that we could not pull Britain out of the bailout
:36:26. > :36:31.mechanism but we did it. He said we could not be to a -- veto European
:36:32. > :36:37.treaty and we did that. They said we would never cut the budget and we
:36:38. > :36:41.did that. The first ever. But overall, we are paying more into the
:36:42. > :36:46.European budget. And they are not sticking to it. More, not less. They
:36:47. > :36:49.say that we cannot achieve reform but we have achieved reform and we
:36:50. > :36:54.are at the forefront of that. Science's father came to Britain
:36:55. > :37:04.because Britain was open and looking outward. What the Conservatives now
:37:05. > :37:11.have, with leaderless Cameron, is an inward looking attitude. They are
:37:12. > :37:15.allowing the rise of UKIP. They are putting so much at risk. People
:37:16. > :37:20.should vote Labour. We are going to have to stop now. No point talking
:37:21. > :37:26.because we are about to finish. I think you all for a spirited debate.
:37:27. > :37:29.I'm sure Nigel Fries and Mr Clegg will have learned a lot about how to
:37:30. > :37:32.debate. -- Nigel Farage. It's just gone 3pm, and you're
:37:33. > :37:35.watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who
:37:36. > :37:36.leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in twenty
:37:37. > :37:50.I'm Julia George and this is the minutes,
:37:51. > :37:55.I'm Julia George and this is the Sunday Politics in the South East.
:37:56. > :37:57.Coming up later: They carry a 50,000`volt charge and can cause
:37:58. > :38:00.your muscles to contract uncontrollably. Anyone worrhed about
:38:01. > :38:08.a dramatic increase in the tse of Tasers by Sussex Police?
:38:09. > :38:11.Joining me in the studio today are the Liberal Democrat Home Office
:38:12. > :38:14.Minister and MP for Lewes, Norman Baker, and Rehman Chishti,
:38:15. > :38:19.Conservative MP for Gillingham and Rainham. Good afternoon to xou both.
:38:20. > :38:23.Before we focus on Turners `nd Tasers, as we have a Home Office
:38:24. > :38:26.Minister with us I would like to get a quick update on legal highs.
:38:27. > :38:30.Norman Baker, you've begun ` review ` can you give any hope yet to
:38:31. > :38:33.families who've seen loved ones hurt or killed by these drugs th`t
:38:34. > :38:38.meaningful change is coming? The first thing I would say is that
:38:39. > :38:43.I banned the term legal highs because it is misleading and implies
:38:44. > :38:46.that they are illegal which they are not always and there are not always
:38:47. > :38:50.safe. I call them chemical highs to try to educate people about the
:38:51. > :38:55.dangers the substances possdss. The panel I set up in September has met
:38:56. > :39:00.on a number of occasions. It is looking at breast practice `` best
:39:01. > :39:03.practice are around the world. We have law enforcement and
:39:04. > :39:08.psychologist looking at this. We will have a report with
:39:09. > :39:10.recommendations and 46 weeks' time. What do you think of the nale
:39:11. > :39:16.change? It is a good idea. There is nothing
:39:17. > :39:21.illegal about them at all, the damage they caused to the lhves of
:39:22. > :39:27.people as horrific. We must do everything we can to address this
:39:28. > :39:30.issue. Bin collections, running libraries
:39:31. > :39:33.and home care for elderly pdople ` just some of the services provided
:39:34. > :39:37.by your local council. But hs it right that they also spend thousands
:39:38. > :39:40.of pounds a year on art collections and exhibitions? This week, in a
:39:41. > :39:43.special report, we take a closer look at some surprisingly hhgh`value
:39:44. > :39:47.works of art. What are they worth and what should local authorities do
:39:48. > :39:51.with them? Sara Neville has been investigating.
:39:52. > :39:59.1500 oil paintings, 4000 water colours, works by iconic artists
:40:00. > :40:02.like Turner and Constable. Ht is an enviable collection worth almost ?33
:40:03. > :40:04.million belonging not to a wealthy private collector, but to
:40:05. > :40:17.cash`strapped Brighton and Hove City Council. The actual fine art
:40:18. > :40:20.collection and the whole cultural part of the city is incredibly
:40:21. > :40:24.important. We have a very vhbrant visitor economy. It is worth over
:40:25. > :40:27.?780 million to the local economy. It employs around 17,000 people So
:40:28. > :40:46.it is vital for the survival of the city. And Brighton is not the only
:40:47. > :40:48.council sitting on a fortund. An exclusive Sunday Politics Freedom of
:40:49. > :40:52.Information request has revdaled that a number of authorities and the
:40:53. > :40:55.South East have millions of pounds tied up just in their top tdn works
:40:56. > :41:01.of art. Eastbourne Borough Council has 12
:41:02. > :41:07.million worth. One thing and Maidstone both value their top ten
:41:08. > :41:10.artworks at over ?2.2 million And Kent County Council reckons its most
:41:11. > :41:13.valuable works come in at jtst under ?2 million. With many counchls being
:41:14. > :41:20.forced to slash key public services, is it time to sell these gr`nd
:41:21. > :41:23.collections? What do you say to people who
:41:24. > :41:31.suggest local authorities should not have large art collections?
:41:32. > :41:39.Do you want me to keep it polite? They are misguided, that is the best
:41:40. > :41:42.I can say. If we strip out the cultural offer of a city, wd are
:41:43. > :41:47.stripping part of the soul of the city away and the reason whx people
:41:48. > :41:50.like to live here and visit here is the cultural offer. Most collections
:41:51. > :41:54.are held in trust but the notion of cashing in on large price t`g items
:41:55. > :42:00.continues to tantalise councils Tower Hamlets toyed with selling
:42:01. > :42:05.this Henry Moore, meanwhile, Croydon Council raised `` raised ?9.5
:42:06. > :42:09.million last year when it optioned some rare Chinese ceramic pheces.
:42:10. > :42:16.This moon Flask alone fetchdd ? .2 million. It was a decision that had
:42:17. > :42:22.the museum world up in arms. Other councils want to capitalise by
:42:23. > :42:25.attracting more art and culture This is the Jerwood Gallery, a
:42:26. > :42:29.private and paid for gallerx in Hastings. It opened two years ago at
:42:30. > :42:36.a cost of ?4 million but it has no public funding. It is part of the
:42:37. > :42:40.cultural regeneration plan for the town and the hope is that these
:42:41. > :42:46.paintings will attract big spending visitors and 65,000 people came here
:42:47. > :42:54.last year. What does that mdan for the Council's own museum collection,
:42:55. > :42:57.? Can it compete with this? A collection of international renown?
:42:58. > :43:02.Hastings does have a Turner, but what it needs is a boost to its
:43:03. > :43:12.flagging economy. Working whth the Jerwood Gallery could hold the key.
:43:13. > :43:16.We need `` we may need to work together better but the feeling is
:43:17. > :43:21.that the Jerwood Gallery is one of the main reasons that peopld come to
:43:22. > :43:25.Hastings. They come to see lany attractions and things like our
:43:26. > :43:32.heritage, the castle, the mtseum and other art collections and artefacts
:43:33. > :43:36.on what people come to see. For many authorities, just a fraction of what
:43:37. > :43:39.they have is on public display while the rest lies in storage. It all
:43:40. > :43:45.needs to be managed, maintahned restored and insured. No ond wants
:43:46. > :43:49.to be seen to be a cultural Philistine but the suggestion that
:43:50. > :43:54.councils should spend money on priceless pieces of artwork rather
:43:55. > :43:58.than on amenities like bin collection, I think you know what
:43:59. > :44:08.most residents would prefer the money being spent on.
:44:09. > :44:12.Are these collections and asset or a burden? Can local authoritids
:44:13. > :44:16.effectively harness them to the maximum benefit or should priceless
:44:17. > :44:22.artworks we in the hands of local authorities at all?
:44:23. > :44:26.The Jerwood Gallery in Hasthngs featured in Sara's report ` let s
:44:27. > :44:29.talk to the man who runs it, David Pennock. You run a successftl
:44:30. > :44:35.commercial gallery, it is not something for political amateurs?
:44:36. > :44:38.That is correct, they are bdst run by people feel involved and art
:44:39. > :44:41.galleries and who are committed to them. One of the difficultids is
:44:42. > :44:46.when they are run by public authorities and the public
:44:47. > :44:52.authorities have a large pool and their time and funds. In sole cases
:44:53. > :44:55.the family silver as sold for short`term gain and that is a very
:44:56. > :45:01.short`sighted view of the role of culture and art in many of our towns
:45:02. > :45:07.and cities around the country. If you have a couple of fantastic
:45:08. > :45:11.pieces, we heard about Croydon 0 piece for several millions of
:45:12. > :45:17.pounds, if you cannot do it justice, I do not better selling it `nd using
:45:18. > :45:22.the money for something in the areas that people would value? If you want
:45:23. > :45:26.to sell something and use it on a short`term expenditure that is
:45:27. > :45:30.highly undesirable. One of the solutions may be that were councils
:45:31. > :45:34.and local authorities have valuable works of art they look at pttting
:45:35. > :45:39.those into a separate charitable and not`for`profit trust so that they
:45:40. > :45:44.can be protected over the long run. Frequently those things are being
:45:45. > :45:48.given to the galleries by individuals who want them to be
:45:49. > :45:52.there for the benefit of thd general public and it is perhaps
:45:53. > :45:58.unreasonable for the councils to sell them off for short`terl
:45:59. > :46:02.returns. Cantlie council re`lly compete, you said at the beginning
:46:03. > :46:10.it was a serious and professional business, can the council m`naged to
:46:11. > :46:13.run a very expensive art collection? I cannot give you figures for
:46:14. > :46:20.Brighton but it is clear th`t each gallery takes an enormous alount of
:46:21. > :46:24.resources to look after it. Standing entirely on our own it would not be
:46:25. > :46:28.possible to survive and prosper unless we had a charge for dntry.
:46:29. > :46:31.That is another solution th`t councils and local authorithes may
:46:32. > :46:36.look at, that perhaps they should be charging to get some sort of return,
:46:37. > :46:40.but remember, when you have a great gallery in somewhere like H`stings,
:46:41. > :46:44.that brings people to the town and it adds to the economy of the likes
:46:45. > :46:50.of Hastings and as to the ctltural economy as well so it would be a
:46:51. > :46:52.great mistake for any local authority to give up on that really
:46:53. > :47:00.very important cultural acthvity. Thank you, David. Well done for
:47:01. > :47:05.coping with the heckling! Rehman Chishti, should men to be
:47:06. > :47:11.keep its art collection or sell it, make sure it is all on display, what
:47:12. > :47:16.is the best scenario? The art collection is valued at ?290,00 and
:47:17. > :47:20.I would say that art is a kdy part of our heritage and of course, local
:47:21. > :47:24.authorities should keep it `nd display it out in the public so
:47:25. > :47:28.members of the public can vhew it. It could inspire future gendrations
:47:29. > :47:35.who wants to be artists to say that they could do likewise and xears to
:47:36. > :47:40.come. We do not think of our local authorities as being there for the
:47:41. > :47:45.cultural experience, ?200,000, that would fill a few potholes, would it
:47:46. > :47:50.not? Some local authorities balance this better than others. I think
:47:51. > :47:53.made we does a really good job but I accept that we could look at doing
:47:54. > :47:57.things differently were loc`l authorities work with galleries and
:47:58. > :48:01.businesses to ensure that artists display their work and that there is
:48:02. > :48:06.also revenue generated that can be put back into the art facilhties and
:48:07. > :48:11.the local area. The cost of looking after this stuff could also be seen
:48:12. > :48:15.as a burden. We have asked the local authorities to tell us the value of
:48:16. > :48:22.the things that are in stor`ge, it is quite high. It adds great
:48:23. > :48:26.vibrancy to a community. As Rehman Chishti says, there is the dconomic
:48:27. > :48:30.benefit. My question has to be whether the local authority should
:48:31. > :48:34.provide this or whether it can be done in a different way. As you have
:48:35. > :48:37.said, many works of art are stored in basements and elsewhere that the
:48:38. > :48:46.public has no access to. How can they justify this? It is re`lly
:48:47. > :48:50.difficult for some local authorities, if they are holding
:48:51. > :48:56.these items and public trust, they cannot sell it. That is correct
:48:57. > :48:59.they should then pull the information and the items ott of
:49:00. > :49:05.storage and sell it on somewhere. Perhaps through a charity where they
:49:06. > :49:13.can display it. Works of art could also be held elsewhere, as long as
:49:14. > :49:18.it is out of basements. Goodhart is very good for us, we all have
:49:19. > :49:22.different tastes, but just how good is the artwork of our local
:49:23. > :49:27.authorities? Will have diffdrent opinions, so it is difficult, there
:49:28. > :49:30.is a diverse range. But I bdlieve that things can be done differently
:49:31. > :49:40.to make sure that people can view the artwork. The problem cotld be
:49:41. > :49:44.that you must always make stre it is for the benefit of the local
:49:45. > :49:48.community. If you have a spdcial Chinese lies and it is worth ?2
:49:49. > :49:56.million, you would think wh`t could I do with this money for Mike
:49:57. > :50:05.Unity. Brighton and Hove Cotncil, they sold a number plate for one of
:50:06. > :50:10.their mayor's cards but thex could have put that money back into public
:50:11. > :50:18.service. They are assets held by councils that could be used better.
:50:19. > :50:24.Another council sold off its hard for front line services. Thdy did
:50:25. > :50:32.that to get funding. Thank xou both very much.
:50:33. > :50:35.Now, here are two words you don t often hear in a political show `
:50:36. > :50:38.neuromuscular incapacitation. That's the posh description for wh`t
:50:39. > :50:41.happens when you're Tasered. Stun guns carry a 50,000`volt ch`rge and
:50:42. > :50:45.they've been a key part of the armoury of our police forces for
:50:46. > :50:48.some time now. But are they now being used too much? Figures
:50:49. > :50:51.released by the Home Office this week show that Sussex Policd
:50:52. > :50:54.recorded a significant year on year increase, from 30 to 164 usds. In
:50:55. > :50:57.percentage terms, that's a 447% rise. Here's Chief Superintdndent
:50:58. > :51:05.Paul Morrison of Sussex and Surrey Police responding to those figures
:51:06. > :51:08.on BBC South East Today this week: it has added an extra option for
:51:09. > :51:13.them to resolve incidents in the past where we would have to have
:51:14. > :51:16.used restraint like batons or sprays.
:51:17. > :51:24.It has given them another option. Because of the high compliance rate,
:51:25. > :51:30.we are seeing only 13 times that it has been discharged.
:51:31. > :51:35.Joining me now is Oliver Sprague from Amnesty International.
:51:36. > :51:40.He says that Tasers are better than bad ones, do you agree? I think when
:51:41. > :51:45.they were first introduced, Tasers were brought in to do with the type
:51:46. > :51:50.of incidents that back lawns and CS spray could not do with effdctively.
:51:51. > :51:57.We are talking about incidence of severe violence, knife crimd, and
:51:58. > :52:00.the Taser offered a safer w`y to deal with those incidents. @nd the
:52:01. > :52:04.purist sends the instant to that is yes. He also said that they are
:52:05. > :52:13.effective and that they work, is that true? They come with Axris
:52:14. > :52:18.Amnesty International is not against the police using Tasers, we
:52:19. > :52:22.recognise they have a different court `` difficult job to do. You
:52:23. > :52:28.mentioned 50,000 volts of electricity and your opening
:52:29. > :52:33.remarks. The important thing is that the disruption to the musclds Hearts
:52:34. > :52:37.Omagh it is agonising. For those five seconds you are under severe
:52:38. > :52:44.pain. That is a concern to Jim and rights organisations. Has thought
:52:45. > :52:47.point was that they work without it being deployed, the threat of a stun
:52:48. > :52:55.gun or being red dotted with one were the aim it at you, that is
:52:56. > :52:59.enough to work. One of our concerns is that Tasers were introduced for
:53:00. > :53:04.serious violence, but the stggestion is that they could be getting used
:53:05. > :53:08.for more minor incidents. When you draw out a Taser, it should operate
:53:09. > :53:12.within the same rules as if you were using it. You should only bd drawing
:53:13. > :53:18.the weapon in response to life`threatening or serious
:53:19. > :53:24.situations. But what a wonddrful thing that a weapon can be tsed
:53:25. > :53:30.without actually being fired. It must be undertaken control, however.
:53:31. > :53:34.The problem is that when thd weapon is misused it can cost some tragic
:53:35. > :53:38.incidents. You only have to look in the United States and they `re not
:53:39. > :53:42.saying that we will go down the similar route, but since we have
:53:43. > :53:46.been looking at that, since 199 Amnesty International has rdcorded
:53:47. > :53:52.several hundred deaths to do with Taser incidents. When you look at
:53:53. > :53:56.autopsy reports, and a signhficant number of those cases, medical
:53:57. > :54:02.examiners point to the Taser as being a contributory factor to that
:54:03. > :54:08.debt. Let me bring in Norman Baker, the Home Office Minister. Sdries
:54:09. > :54:11.concerns about mortality rates. You were all for caution over T`sers in
:54:12. > :54:19.the past, have you changed xour mind? I am still for caution, Tasers
:54:20. > :54:24.must be controlled and monitored. It is important to point out that the
:54:25. > :54:30.large number of entries is not mirrored by an increase in tsage.
:54:31. > :54:36.That is correct, they were fired 13 times in 2013, the same as 2012 so
:54:37. > :54:42.is there some hysteria? People are very concerned and there must be
:54:43. > :54:51.proper controls. I went to the Home Office research unit to look at this
:54:52. > :54:57.myself. I saw it fired into the body of the manic grin. It was
:54:58. > :55:04.interesting to watch it happen because the barbs, when thex come
:55:05. > :55:12.out of the gun, the hit parts of the body that are not quite so
:55:13. > :55:19.sensitive. How can we know what it is like unless it is tested on
:55:20. > :55:23.humans? 50,000 volts, you know that will not be pleasant! Let md give
:55:24. > :55:27.you some assurances, every time a Taser is drawn it is recorddd by the
:55:28. > :55:31.police. The Home Office has a record of every time a Taser is usdd. We
:55:32. > :55:37.monitor all of the health implications for each time one is
:55:38. > :55:42.fired. It is highly regulatdd, I appreciate that, but what about when
:55:43. > :55:46.someone dies in this countrx after, I am not saying June in being
:55:47. > :55:49.Tasered, even if it happens a few weeks later, that would change that
:55:50. > :55:54.which changed the debate, would it not? They would have to find out
:55:55. > :55:59.whether the police officer had behaved appropriately. You `re
:56:00. > :56:02.surrounded by people who max be endangering your life as a police
:56:03. > :56:08.officer, it is only right that you are able to defend yourself.
:56:09. > :56:14.Sometimes if you draw the T`ser that is enough to prevent the problem.
:56:15. > :56:18.But that is not always the case hence why it is observed by the Home
:56:19. > :56:22.Office. Let us talk about the figures in Kent. The most striking
:56:23. > :56:29.thing was that half of thosd Tasered were mentally ill. We have heard of
:56:30. > :56:34.children being Tasered and sunny, vulnerable people being Tasdred
:56:35. > :56:37.does that not worry you? We have to make sure that they are being used
:56:38. > :56:43.properly. When the police ddcide to use them, they must look at the
:56:44. > :56:48.strategy that they are employing. The key factor is that when you use
:56:49. > :56:54.a Taser, it should be in relation to when there is violence or the threat
:56:55. > :56:59.of violence. It used to just the firearm officers, they get three
:57:00. > :57:04.months of training, no it is often officers who have had four days
:57:05. > :57:08.training simply and using a Taser, that is a big difference, mtst we go
:57:09. > :57:15.back to allowing only firearm officers to using what are very
:57:16. > :57:17.dangerous weapons? It happened in 2000 and then when you had
:57:18. > :57:26.specifically trained officers using Tasers. But we have seen thhs
:57:27. > :57:29.increase in Sussex recently. Like Norman said, you have seen `n
:57:30. > :57:35.increase in the drawing of these Tasers, but if you look at the use
:57:36. > :57:38.of these Tasers, there was only 13 users, that shows the policd are
:57:39. > :57:45.being reasonable and proportionate. Norman, would you prefer fire arms
:57:46. > :57:51.officers only to use these? The training must be adequate. That is
:57:52. > :58:01.the issue. A gun is a legal weapon, a Taser is a very dangerous weapon
:58:02. > :58:09.used wrongly. We must make sure that officers are properly traindd. Thank
:58:10. > :58:13.you all for joining me. And now for a round`up of the other
:58:14. > :58:20.political events that you mhght have missed this week with James
:58:21. > :58:25.Fitzgerald. Recipients of home care are worried
:58:26. > :58:29.about Kent County Council's decision to strip back contracts to providers
:58:30. > :58:33.to just 20 companies in orddr to provide better value for money.
:58:34. > :58:39.Divya Talwar the must be better quality of care. The sports minister
:58:40. > :58:43.visited Dover for a regener`ted people's port.
:58:44. > :58:49.He is tried to give financi`l flexibility and invited loc`ls.
:58:50. > :58:56.Charlie Elphicke crossed thd Channel to look at how illegal storhes tried
:58:57. > :59:00.to enter the UK. He disappe`red `` he disagreed with French authorities
:59:01. > :59:07.who said it was a problem for the British government. It is both our
:59:08. > :59:15.concern. One Eurosceptic Kent MP. 4000
:59:16. > :59:25.respondents voted in favour of leaving the EU.
:59:26. > :59:28.Picking up on that referendtm point, the overwhelmingly popular
:59:29. > :59:34.position for those that votdd was to come out of Europe, only UKHP can
:59:35. > :59:37.offer that, five and a half weeks of the until the European elections,
:59:38. > :59:44.Conservatives, are they scared of UKIP? The only party that is
:59:45. > :59:50.offering the British public a referendum as the Conservathve
:59:51. > :59:54.Party. Are you scared of thdm? We are the only party that can give the
:59:55. > :59:59.British public the opportunhty to decide what kind of relationship
:00:00. > :00:08.they want with Europe. We know that your leader went head`to`he`d with
:00:09. > :00:17.Nigel Farage. As David Cameron scared of Nigel Farage? Not at all.
:00:18. > :00:20.I think it is a case where Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage wantdd to
:00:21. > :00:28.debate with two smaller parties going head`to`head. You say he has
:00:29. > :00:33.avoided the opportunity to debate, he has never avoided the issue.
:00:34. > :00:36.Thank you both very much indeed Lovely to have you both present
:00:37. > :00:40.Parliament is not sitting, risk. We have run out of time. -
:00:41. > :00:50.particular candidates. Back to you, Andrew.
:00:51. > :00:52.The sun's out, Ed Balls has run the London Marathon, and MPs leave
:00:53. > :01:03.Westminster for their Easter break. Let's discuss what's coming up in
:01:04. > :01:07.the Week Ahead. We will get more of what we have
:01:08. > :01:12.just seen. Let's look back on the debate. What did we learn from the
:01:13. > :01:16.argument is? That it is going to bore and irritate whole lot of
:01:17. > :01:20.people, this election campaign. Four parties shouting at each other about
:01:21. > :01:23.things that most people do not know much about. They know very little
:01:24. > :01:31.about how the European Parliament works, what an MEP is supposed to
:01:32. > :01:37.do. A lot of heat and not a lot of light. I've updated well, all of
:01:38. > :01:41.them, but the net effect is not going to encourage people to go out
:01:42. > :01:49.and vote and not many do. One thing that struck me was that on Europe,
:01:50. > :01:53.the Labour and Lib Dem positions are not that far apart. They are pretty
:01:54. > :01:57.much the same. And yet the knocks lots of each other. I suppose they
:01:58. > :02:02.feel that they had to do that because that is the format. I'd
:02:03. > :02:08.agree with Polly. Their word UKIP and the Tories to attack two we try
:02:09. > :02:12.to make it exciting, and we know the issues are important. But people out
:02:13. > :02:17.there have not heard of these individuals. It is not very
:02:18. > :02:20.exciting. That is worrying because these are huge national questions
:02:21. > :02:27.for us. We need to find a way of making it more fun. People may not
:02:28. > :02:31.know these MEPs, they may not know the detail of the debate, but it is
:02:32. > :02:36.an issue on which people have strong opinions. It is a visceral thing for
:02:37. > :02:38.many people. Especially on the immigration issue. The debate took
:02:39. > :02:45.off and became more vociferous at that point. To a large extent, you
:02:46. > :02:48.wonder whether not only this European election but the eventual
:02:49. > :02:53.referendum will be a referendum on the issue of immigration and free
:02:54. > :02:56.movement. If we did not learn much from the argument, the thing we did
:02:57. > :03:04.learn is that the structure of these televised debate influences the
:03:05. > :03:10.outcome. One of the reasons that Nigel Farage did well in the debate
:03:11. > :03:14.is that in a two-man debate, each man has as good a chance as the
:03:15. > :03:19.other. If it is four people, one man can be ganged up on. Patrick O'Flynn
:03:20. > :03:23.did well for a man who is not an elected politician yet. At times, 40
:03:24. > :03:26.came under attack and did not hold the line as well as you would
:03:27. > :03:30.expect. Does that create a perverse incentive for the main parties to
:03:31. > :03:35.agree to a four way debate before the general election? I do not think
:03:36. > :03:38.the David Cameron has nearly as much to worry about from a televised
:03:39. > :03:42.debate in the run-up to the elections than his spin doctors
:03:43. > :03:46.believe. When you put him up against Ed Miliband, and we have not
:03:47. > :03:52.actually seen Ed Miliband in that format, I think he will come off all
:03:53. > :03:57.right. This is an election which the polls would have us believe that the
:03:58. > :04:03.battle for first place is between UKIP and labour. It certainly is.
:04:04. > :04:06.Obviously, it is neck and neck and we will not know until we are
:04:07. > :04:12.closer. And it matters a lot to both of them. If Mr Miliband does not
:04:13. > :04:17.come first, that is not good news for the main opposition at this
:04:18. > :04:22.stage. Except to some extent all of the people will put it to one side
:04:23. > :04:28.and say that this is a bizarre election. A plague on both your
:04:29. > :04:34.houses, let's vote UKIP. It is not clear how much that translates into
:04:35. > :04:39.the next election. It is not too disastrous for Labour. It would be
:04:40. > :04:44.better if they came first. If Mr Miliband comes first, not a problem,
:04:45. > :04:49.but it becomes second and UKIP soars away, what are the consequences I
:04:50. > :04:52.think there is a widespread expectation already at Westminster
:04:53. > :04:58.that UKIP is very likely to come first. If Ed Miliband fails to come
:04:59. > :05:02.first, there will not be a great deal of shock in the West Mr
:05:03. > :05:04.village. Else think what is remarkable about Ed Miliband is that
:05:05. > :05:10.despite consistently poor personal leadership approval ratings, the
:05:11. > :05:17.overall Labour poll is consistently very high. We have seen that budget
:05:18. > :05:22.blip, it seems to have taken us back to where we were before. Leadership
:05:23. > :05:25.is not everything. Mrs Thatcher was miles behind James Callaghan but in
:05:26. > :05:31.the end, it was the party politics that mattered more. If Mr Cameron
:05:32. > :05:36.comes third and the Tories come third, maybe a poor third, is it
:05:37. > :05:41.headless chicken time on the Tory backbenchers? It has often been said
:05:42. > :05:47.that the Tory Party has two modes, complacency and panic. You will see
:05:48. > :05:53.them shift into panic mode. By June, I think. Many of the stories in the
:05:54. > :05:57.sun will be about David Cameron s personal leadership and his grip on
:05:58. > :06:00.the party. There will be pressure on conference by the time that comes
:06:01. > :06:07.around. It is a natural consequence of being the incumbent party. The
:06:08. > :06:12.Lib Dems are 7% in two of the polls today. It was widely thought that in
:06:13. > :06:19.the first and second debates, Nigel Farage won both. In retrospect, was
:06:20. > :06:25.the challenge strategy a disaster for Mr Clegg? I do not think it was
:06:26. > :06:32.because he had nothing to lose. But he is lower in the polls than when
:06:33. > :06:37.he started. He has not lost a great deal. The polls were quite often
:06:38. > :06:42.that low. I think it was a good thing to do. It raised his profile.
:06:43. > :06:47.It made him the leading party in. That may be a difficult place to
:06:48. > :06:51.be. That is how you end up with 7% in the polls. The reason he is
:06:52. > :06:55.fighting with Labour is that he knows very well that all he has to
:06:56. > :06:58.do is to get his votes back that have gone to Labour and labour have
:06:59. > :07:04.to fight hard to make sure that they do not go back. Every party looks to
:07:05. > :07:09.where it is going to get it support. If it is a wipe-out for the
:07:10. > :07:15.Lib Dems, and they lose all their MEPs, not saying that is going to
:07:16. > :07:20.happen but you could not rule it out for, are we back in Nick Clegg
:07:21. > :07:24.leadership crisis territory? One of the astonishing things about this
:07:25. > :07:27.Parliament is the relative absence of leadership speculation about Nick
:07:28. > :07:31.Clegg will stop at the first couple of years, his position seems
:07:32. > :07:35.tricky, but maybe that is because Chris Hughton is gone and he was the
:07:36. > :07:38.only plausible candidate. This cable is not getting any younger, to put
:07:39. > :07:43.it delicately. That was not delegate at all! And we have reached a
:07:44. > :07:45.desperate stage where Danny Alexander is talked about as a
:07:46. > :07:50.candidate. That was not delegate either! Maybe he is holding onto
:07:51. > :07:56.power the lack of alternatives. If they ended up with no MEPs at all,
:07:57. > :08:02.and a less than double digits score... With Danny Alexander, it is
:08:03. > :08:05.clear that Scotland, one way or another, will be moving further
:08:06. > :08:11.away. You could not have the leader of a national party be a Scot. But
:08:12. > :08:15.he does not have the following in the party. I'm glad you're liberal
:08:16. > :08:21.attitudes to immigration extends to me. I would not have been here for
:08:22. > :08:27.43 years. There will be leadership talk after that holes. It has been
:08:28. > :08:32.bubbling in the background, but you have to talk to the grass roots
:08:33. > :08:37.activists. -- after the polls. The grass roots activists are
:08:38. > :08:40.despairing. If things are bad, they lose their network of activists who
:08:41. > :08:44.they need to fight the next election. I think you mean, not that
:08:45. > :08:48.you could have a Scot, but that it would be more difficult to have a
:08:49. > :08:54.Scot from a Scottish constituency. Absolutely. I think a Scottish
:08:55. > :09:00.constituency, so many things will be different. Or to hold the great
:09:01. > :09:05.offices of state. Let's come onto the Crown Prosecution Service is. It
:09:06. > :09:07.is an English institution. Where does the CPS and after losing yet
:09:08. > :09:12.another high-profile case come this time Nigel Evans? They had nine
:09:13. > :09:19.counts against him and they did not win on one. It is obviously very
:09:20. > :09:22.embarrassing. They will have a bit of explain to do but I guess the
:09:23. > :09:26.threshold for bringing these cases is high. There has to be considered
:09:27. > :09:32.at least a 50-50 chance of actually winning the case. We do not know
:09:33. > :09:34.what went on behind the scenes when they weighed up whether to bring the
:09:35. > :09:38.case. Nigel Evans makes an interesting point about whether it
:09:39. > :09:45.is legitimate to bundle together a number of stand-alone relatively
:09:46. > :09:49.weak accusations, and when you put them together to militantly, the CPS
:09:50. > :09:53.uses that to make a case. Is that a legitimate thing to do? He was a
:09:54. > :10:01.high-profile figure, not just because he was a Tory MP. He was the
:10:02. > :10:06.deputy speaker of the House. And yet the CPS are certainly the police, to
:10:07. > :10:10.begin with they did not have that many people to testify against him.
:10:11. > :10:14.And then they trawled for more. You wonder if they would have done that
:10:15. > :10:17.if it was not for the fact that he was a public figure. The trouble is,
:10:18. > :10:21.they are dammed if they do and dammed if they do not. Particularly
:10:22. > :10:23.with politicians and the reputation they have these days, if there is
:10:24. > :10:27.any suggestion that they let somebody off because they are a
:10:28. > :10:33.high-profile politician, and they are saying that about Cyril Smith,
:10:34. > :10:37.that is the accusation. A strange story. Most unlikely and very
:10:38. > :10:42.bizarre. But that is the accusation. If there is any with of that, I can
:10:43. > :10:46.see why the CPS says, we better let the courts try this one. Also, they
:10:47. > :10:54.are in trouble overrated cases because their success rate on
:10:55. > :10:57.bringing people to court for rape is so thin. When it looked as if his
:10:58. > :11:01.accusers were not really accusing him, it looks quite weak. You cannot
:11:02. > :11:06.help but feeling that they are falling over backwards now in
:11:07. > :11:10.high-profile cases because of their abject and total failure over Jimmy
:11:11. > :11:14.Savile. I think this is exactly the kind of case that happens when you
:11:15. > :11:19.are trying to make a point or redeem a reputation or change a culture.
:11:20. > :11:23.All of these big things. As opposed to what criminal justice is supposed
:11:24. > :11:25.to be about, which is specific crimes and specific evidence
:11:26. > :11:29.matching those crimes. The CPS has no copper a fleet joined in this
:11:30. > :11:32.list of public and situations that has taken a fall over the past five
:11:33. > :11:36.or six years. We have had Parliament, the newspapers, the
:11:37. > :11:39.police will stop I think this is as bad a humiliation as any of those
:11:40. > :11:43.because it is Innocent people suffering. You are the most recent,
:11:44. > :11:47.being a lobby correspondent in Westminster, and we now see on
:11:48. > :11:53.Channel 4 News that basically, Westminster is twinned with Sodom
:11:54. > :11:58.and Gomorrah. Yes. I know. Is this true? It is all rather the red. I do
:11:59. > :12:04.not move in those circles. And you were in the lobby at one stage? Not
:12:05. > :12:07.that long ago. Is it right. Is it right to be twinned with Sodom and
:12:08. > :12:14.Gomorrah? I'll ask him for his opinion. Being technically a member
:12:15. > :12:19.of the lobby, I can observe some of this stuff. And what surprises me is
:12:20. > :12:23.that journalists, when the complain about Sodom and Gomorrah, write
:12:24. > :12:29.themselves out of it. It is as if it is just MPs. We are unalloyed and
:12:30. > :12:33.unvarnished. Actually, the fact is it has always been a bit like Sodom
:12:34. > :12:36.and tomorrow. Of course it has. Think about how we have had wave
:12:37. > :12:41.after wave of stories and scandals. But less of it recently. It was I
:12:42. > :12:45.think that attitudes have slightly changed. I'll also think that if you
:12:46. > :12:51.get 650 people in any organisation and you put that much scrutiny on
:12:52. > :12:58.them, you will find an awful lot going on in most people's officers
:12:59. > :14:01.of a scurrilous nature. Even in the BBC
:14:02. > :14:04.In 2013, the public voted for a portrait of
:14:05. > :14:12.At times he's interesting, at times he's very funny,
:14:13. > :14:20.My life is a very happy life and I'm a very happy person.
:14:21. > :14:22.Will you feel nervous when this is unveiled?
:14:23. > :14:26.I suppose being the centre of attention but for ever.