:00:37. > :00:42.David Cameron slaps down two of his most senior Cabinet ministers
:00:43. > :00:47.over their public row about Islamist extremism in schools.
:00:48. > :00:53.And it?s HER special advisor that has to resign.
:00:54. > :00:57.We'll talk to the Shadow Education Secretary live
:00:58. > :01:01.Should this man become the next President of the EU Commission?
:01:02. > :01:04.David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping Luxembourg Federalist
:01:05. > :01:14.But could the arch europhile yet get the top job?
:01:15. > :01:16.Here's to the quarter of a million votes.
:01:17. > :01:21.And we'll find out why this political party is celebrating with
:01:22. > :01:24.And in the South East. success may have cost UKIP two MEPs.
:01:25. > :01:27.It's been a bruising week for Kent's Police and Crime Commissioner
:01:28. > :01:30.Ann Barnes, we'll ask what the latest
:01:31. > :01:42.Has Boris Johnson deserted the suburbs and become a zone one man?
:01:43. > :01:46.And with me our panel of top political journalists,
:01:47. > :01:49.who are always squabbling among themselves, Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee
:01:50. > :01:51.and Janan Ganesh, who will be tweeting throughout the programme
:01:52. > :01:56.This morning's political news is dominated
:01:57. > :01:59.by the very public fall-out of Home Secretary Theresa May and
:02:00. > :02:03.The high viz blue on blue spat between two senior
:02:04. > :02:05.Conservatives centred around the Government's approach to tackling
:02:06. > :02:11.The row burst into the open ahead of the publication tomorrow of
:02:12. > :02:16.investigations into the so-called Trojan Horse plot in Birmingham
:02:17. > :02:19.where it is alleged several state schools have been covertly taken
:02:20. > :02:25.Mr Gove told The Times last week he was concerned that the Home Office
:02:26. > :02:28.was unwilling to tackle extremism at its roots.
:02:29. > :02:32.He said a robust response was needed to drain the swamp.
:02:33. > :02:34.In response, Mrs May's special advisor tweeted,
:02:35. > :02:37."why is the Department for Education wanting to blame other people
:02:38. > :02:44.Lord knows what more they have overlooked on the subject of the
:02:45. > :02:51.An angry David Cameron ordered a speedy inquiry.
:02:52. > :02:54.Last night, Mr Gove apologised to the Prime Minister, while Ms May's
:02:55. > :02:59.Speaking on the BBC earlier this morning,
:03:00. > :03:04.this is what Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had to say.
:03:05. > :03:07.There's been a disciplinary matter within the Government,
:03:08. > :03:10.which the Prime Minister has dealt with in a very firm, clear way.
:03:11. > :03:12.There will be discipline in the Government.
:03:13. > :03:18.The main thing is the issue itself - tackling extremism in schools.
:03:19. > :03:24.The Government will be very clear, very robust about anything that s
:03:25. > :03:42.put children at risk - risk to their safety or learning.
:03:43. > :03:53.Let's look at the positive of this. Theresa May 's people of saying she
:03:54. > :04:00.has come off worse in theirs. Yelena Kushi is no more guilty than Michael
:04:01. > :04:07.Gove he was guilty of indiscretion. She is no more guilty. Even during
:04:08. > :04:12.13 years of new Labour 's psychodrama, I cannot remember an
:04:13. > :04:23.act of hostility quite as naked as direct as publishing on a website
:04:24. > :04:26.and intergovernmental letter. It suggests quite a lot of
:04:27. > :04:31.conservatives do not think they will win next time. Why would there be a
:04:32. > :04:38.leadership spat going on like this unless they thought there was a
:04:39. > :04:43.vacancy? Inside the Cabinet, Theresa May is getting quite a bashing. In
:04:44. > :04:49.the Sunday Times, someone has reported she is the date from hell.
:04:50. > :04:54.She sidles up to people and is nakedly ambitious. I think that is
:04:55. > :04:59.interesting. On the whole, nobody will understand the finesse
:05:00. > :05:04.differences of opinion. It is not serious, it is not serious, it is
:05:05. > :05:09.tactical. It'll be puzzling for most people and will probably fizzle out.
:05:10. > :05:16.Has the Prime Minister slapped it down or will it rumble on? On the
:05:17. > :05:22.politics of it, it will not fizzle out. What you have is Theresa May is
:05:23. > :05:26.deadly serious about replacing David Cameron, not dislodging him but
:05:27. > :05:31.replacing him if there is a vacancy. Michael Gove is deadly serious in
:05:32. > :05:36.ensuring George Osborne succeeds David Cameron. It will be that
:05:37. > :05:39.ongoing political rivalry. What is really interesting about this is the
:05:40. > :05:45.Prime Minister is absolutely fed up with both of them. He is fed up with
:05:46. > :05:50.Michael Gove full-size gearing of message. He had the row with Nick
:05:51. > :05:55.Clegg and he had a row with Theresa May. He named Charles Barr and
:05:56. > :06:04.criticised him in a lunch with the times. White brother he is the
:06:05. > :06:13.Security adviser at the Home Office. -- he is the security advisor. He is
:06:14. > :06:18.fed up with Theresa May for mounting an unannounced leader bid. What
:06:19. > :06:25.separates Theresa May from Michael Gove on dealing with extremism? The
:06:26. > :06:29.view from Michael Gove is that it shows no interest in Islamic
:06:30. > :06:34.extremism until it manifests in violent form. Theresa May is
:06:35. > :06:40.criticised for rolling back the programme which the previous Labour
:06:41. > :06:44.government introduced to do with the previous Labour government
:06:45. > :06:50.introduced to do with the Home Office has been made by other people
:06:51. > :06:55.and made when the Home Office was not run by Theresa May but previous
:06:56. > :06:57.home secretaries, even dating back to the Conservative government in
:06:58. > :07:03.the 1990s. It is about the laxity of the Government. Michael Gove has
:07:04. > :07:08.used extraordinary inflammatory language talking about draining the
:07:09. > :07:12.swamp. I think Theresa May 's view is you can very easily inflamed
:07:13. > :07:19.those emotions and create many more extremists the process. Michael Gove
:07:20. > :07:23.would say that his approach is entirely consistent with the speech
:07:24. > :07:24.the Prime Minister made to the Munich Security conference in 2011
:07:25. > :07:29.Munich Security conference in 2 11 when the Prime Minister talked about
:07:30. > :07:45.warp the grape great religion of Islam. The Birmingham school system
:07:46. > :07:51.is going to be one of the most reported systems in Europe.
:07:52. > :07:54.Joining me now from Kent is Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt.
:07:55. > :08:03.Should parents of Birmingham children be worried that some of
:08:04. > :08:09.their schools are in the grip of an Islamist takeover? I think parents
:08:10. > :08:12.in Birmingham schools will be very disappointed by the political
:08:13. > :08:15.infighting going on in the Government. The briefings, the
:08:16. > :08:22.resignations, the apologies. The real apology that Michael Gove needs
:08:23. > :08:26.to deliver it to the pupil -- the pupils and parents of Birmingham.
:08:27. > :08:30.There was a potential threat of radicalisation. He fell to act for
:08:31. > :08:35.four years. The Labour Party is asking, when did he know the fact
:08:36. > :08:39.that radicalisation could have been taking place? What has been going on
:08:40. > :08:44.for the last four years? What we in the Labour Party want to see if much
:08:45. > :08:47.stronger systems of local oversight and accountability to situations
:08:48. > :08:52.like this do not arise again. Is there, in your view, if some of the
:08:53. > :09:02.Birmingham schools, an Islamist takeover? What we have seen in the
:09:03. > :09:07.leaked Ofsted report so far is fears about cultural isolation and an
:09:08. > :09:12.overconcentration on Islamic teaching within the curriculum. We
:09:13. > :09:16.want young people to celebrate their cultural identity, celebrate
:09:17. > :09:21.themselves as Muslims. We also want them to have an education which
:09:22. > :09:25.makes them succeed in multicultural 21st-century Birmingham. We want to
:09:26. > :09:32.be quite tough on moves towards gender segregation, a restricted
:09:33. > :09:37.curriculum. Birmingham is a multicultural city. We need an
:09:38. > :09:41.education system which celebrates that. What is wrong with gender
:09:42. > :09:49.segregation? You went to an all boys school. Where you have gender
:09:50. > :09:55.segregation, we have had a long tradition in Catholic schooling
:09:56. > :09:57.Where you have a state education system, which is about gender
:09:58. > :10:02.equality between boys and girls, and equality between boys and girls and
:10:03. > :10:05.there is an unofficial policy of gender segregation, that is
:10:06. > :10:10.unacceptable. We should not be tarring communities with the same
:10:11. > :10:16.brush in terms of radicalisation. We do want to see a successful,
:10:17. > :10:23.multicultural education. Two years ago, Ofsted rated Parkview as
:10:24. > :10:29.outstanding. Now it looks like tomorrow it is going into special
:10:30. > :10:34.measures. What is it up to? I do think there is an issue for Ofsted
:10:35. > :10:39.that you can go from outstanding to inadequate so quickly. That is why
:10:40. > :10:43.we are asking for a new criteria to be introduced to look at a broad and
:10:44. > :10:50.balanced curriculum. We have healthy sex and relationship education.
:10:51. > :10:53.There is a real issue this morning as the BBC has been reporting on the
:10:54. > :10:56.night for the Department of Education. We are hearing that some
:10:57. > :11:00.of those involved in the schools were not allowed to open a free
:11:01. > :11:04.school on security grounds. They were allowed to allow one of the
:11:05. > :11:08.schools to be taken over as an academy. We have a lack of oversight
:11:09. > :11:13.and accountability in schools within Birmingham. What the Labour Party
:11:14. > :11:21.wants is a local director of school standards to make sure we challenge
:11:22. > :11:29.underperformance and make sure we get in confronting Islamic extremism
:11:30. > :11:34.when it was in power? I was speaking to Hazel blears and she was very
:11:35. > :11:42.clear about the prevent programme which they rolled out when in
:11:43. > :11:50.office. A very atomised and fragmented school system where every
:11:51. > :11:55.school is looked at from behind a desk in Whitehall and he put that
:11:56. > :12:04.together and you do have an increased risk of chances of
:12:05. > :12:11.radicalisation. You have attacked Mr Gove for gross negligence. Was it
:12:12. > :12:20.the same -- you attacked Mr Gove for gross negligence. We are dealing
:12:21. > :12:25.with a government which has been in since 2010. The Government needs to
:12:26. > :12:34.hold the executive to account. We note the Department Michael Gove was
:12:35. > :12:38.warned by a senior and respected head teacher about fears over
:12:39. > :12:43.radicalism. What did he know and what did he act upon? We are hearing
:12:44. > :12:47.more reports of conversations about fears, about radicalisation, taking
:12:48. > :12:55.over some of the governing bodies of schools. We need to know what
:12:56. > :12:57.ministers did. Let me continue. You mention the capital to prevent
:12:58. > :13:07.strategy. Was it gross negligence for Labour to regularly consult a
:13:08. > :13:13.man who once headed a group dedicated to making Britain an
:13:14. > :13:19.Islamic state and wrote a book about schools full of Taliban style
:13:20. > :13:24.decrees. I think the events in Birmingham are enormously
:13:25. > :13:28.significant. About the nature of multiculturalism, the nature of
:13:29. > :13:32.education, the role of civic education, the role of faith
:13:33. > :13:36.schools. I will say to you this morning that Birmingham City
:13:37. > :13:45.Council, Ofsted, the Labour Party, the Department for Education were
:13:46. > :13:49.all involved in this conversation. In 2010, ministers were warned about
:13:50. > :13:56.potential radicalisation of schools and they fell to act. We need to
:13:57. > :14:00.know why, for years on, they allowed this situation to exacerbate. When
:14:01. > :14:04.you look at the record of labour and this government 's record, there are
:14:05. > :14:09.plenty of examples where both of you fail to act. Would it not be better
:14:10. > :14:15.to drop the party politics and get together to confront this problem
:14:16. > :14:21.for the sake of the children? There are a number of reports going on in
:14:22. > :14:25.Birmingham. Some are led by the city council, some by the Department for
:14:26. > :14:28.Education. Labour MPs this morning have come forward with the Bishop of
:14:29. > :14:34.Birmingham talking about faith in schools. If you have a minister
:14:35. > :14:38.failing to do their job, if you have a minister being given warnings in
:14:39. > :14:42.2010 and failing to act on them for four years, the opposition has a
:14:43. > :14:47.role to hold the executive to account. This is about the safety
:14:48. > :14:50.and standards of teaching for pupils in Birmingham schools. It is about a
:14:51. > :14:57.great education for these young people so they can succeed in a
:14:58. > :15:02.modern, multicultural Britain. Do you agree with your Shadow Cabinet
:15:03. > :15:09.colleague, Rachel Reeves, that Labour' as core voters are
:15:10. > :15:14.abandoning the party? She was building on what Ed said the day
:15:15. > :15:19.after the elections in Berwick. We have to make sure those communities
:15:20. > :15:22.who we historically represent regard Labour as having a successful
:15:23. > :15:26.message for them. I am passionate about making sure we have great
:15:27. > :15:32.vocational and technical education, the great academic education in our
:15:33. > :15:38.schools. If we have more work to do to get people to the polling
:15:39. > :15:48.booths, we must do that. We must with listen to what she says.
:15:49. > :15:51.David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping the former PM of Luxembourg
:15:52. > :15:54.- named by one newspaper as 'the most dangerous man in Europe'
:15:55. > :15:57.because of his federalist views - from becoming the next president
:15:58. > :16:04.Mr Cameron has reportedly described Jean Claude Juncker as a 'face from
:16:05. > :16:07.the 80s who cannot solve the problems of the next five years .
:16:08. > :16:10.But with the German Chancellor Angela Merkel publicly backing Mr
:16:11. > :16:13.Juncker, it's not a dead cert that Mr Cameron can stop his appointment.
:16:14. > :16:19.This is what he had to say at the G7 summit earlier this week:
:16:20. > :16:24.It is important that we have people running the institutions of Europe
:16:25. > :16:28.who understand the need for change and reform. I would argue that view
:16:29. > :16:34.is widely shared amongst other heads of government and heads of state in
:16:35. > :16:39.the European Union. I am clear what I want to achieve for Britain's
:16:40. > :16:42.future, to secure Britain's placed in a reformed European Union and I
:16:43. > :16:46.have a strategy for delivering that, a strategy for dealing with an
:16:47. > :16:48.issue which I think if we walk away from it would see Britain drift
:16:49. > :16:50.towards the exits. We've been joined from Berlin
:16:51. > :16:53.by the German MEP Elmar Brok who is a senior figure in the EPP - that's
:16:54. > :16:56.the party backing Mr Juncker. He's also Chairman of the Union
:16:57. > :17:01.of European Federalists. And in our Newcastle newsroom is
:17:02. > :17:04.the former Conservative MEP Martin Callanan who until last month led
:17:05. > :17:08.the European Conservatives and Reformists group in Brussels.
:17:09. > :17:23.Welcome to you both. The United Kingdom, Sweden, Hungary,
:17:24. > :17:26.they don't want Mr Junker, the new Italian Prime Minister doesn't look
:17:27. > :17:33.keen either, should he bow out gracefully? First of all, he wants
:17:34. > :17:38.to have Mr Junker but he wants to have his conditions. Will he become
:17:39. > :17:45.president of the European Council, a high representative? It is a
:17:46. > :17:53.discussion to be had in the next three or four weeks until the
:17:54. > :17:55.European Parliament can elect the president of the European Council
:17:56. > :18:01.after the proposal of the European Council, which has to be done after
:18:02. > :18:07.consultation with the Parliament in the light of the European elections
:18:08. > :18:13.and by a majority vote. If not Mr Junker, then who? There are many
:18:14. > :18:18.available candidates, I am not going to mention them in front of someone
:18:19. > :18:24.so esteemed as Elmar Brok. Give us one name that you would prefer? The
:18:25. > :18:29.prime Minister of Sweden, Christine Lagarde, the minister from
:18:30. > :18:38.Lithuania, these are people who have a record of old reform. Junker is
:18:39. > :18:44.the ultimate Europe insider. We need radical inform. We need to respond
:18:45. > :18:49.to the message the electorate gave us in the elections -- radical
:18:50. > :18:53.reform. Junker said he had to lie in public, he allowed the security
:18:54. > :18:56.services to conduct a dirty tricks campaign against his opponent. This
:18:57. > :19:00.is not who we want leading the European Commission. Elmar Brok,
:19:01. > :19:03.European Commission. Elmar Brok since the European voters have sent
:19:04. > :19:07.a message to the parliament that they are not happy with the status
:19:08. > :19:13.quo, why would you want a man who is synonymous with the status quo?
:19:14. > :19:24.First of all what Martin has said is wrong. He has not done tricks
:19:25. > :19:30.against his opponents. He was very clear on that. He is also the man
:19:31. > :19:35.who was always for changes. He made dramatic changes as head of the Euro
:19:36. > :19:39.group, came out of the economic crisis which was a result of the
:19:40. > :19:43.financial crisis, made politics possible, to stop this incredible
:19:44. > :19:48.financial sector influence of our states. I believe he is a man who
:19:49. > :19:53.works on the programme which Mrs Merkel and others have decided in
:19:54. > :19:55.Dublin, for the reform of the European Union, less government. But
:19:56. > :19:59.European Union, less government But we need Europe more and he is not a
:20:00. > :20:05.man from the 80s. He is a man of this century and in this century he
:20:06. > :20:07.made his own policy. He is the winner of the European elections, he
:20:08. > :20:12.has a majority will stop Mrs LANguard is not running because she
:20:13. > :20:20.knows she will not get the majority in the European Parliament. --
:20:21. > :20:25.Christine Lagarde is not running. It is the Council of minister is that
:20:26. > :20:30.decides. No, the European Parliament has the final word. The European
:20:31. > :20:33.Council can make a proposal by majority in the light of the
:20:34. > :20:37.European elections after consultation with the European
:20:38. > :20:42.Parliament. The council cannot get a candidate against the will of the
:20:43. > :20:47.European Parliament. Mr Junker has a majority in the European Parliament.
:20:48. > :20:51.Theoretically he is right, the Parliament has do vote on the
:20:52. > :20:54.candidates proposed by the council. I want to challenge the view that
:20:55. > :21:00.somehow he won the European elections. There is no provision for
:21:01. > :21:04.Jean Claude Junker to stand in the elections. He is saying that the EEP
:21:05. > :21:07.party got the most number of seats in the Parliament but none of the
:21:08. > :21:11.electorate knew they were taking part in this election. How many
:21:12. > :21:16.people who voted Labour in the United Kingdom realised that their
:21:17. > :21:21.vote would count towards a German socialist to be a candidate for the
:21:22. > :21:26.commission of presidency is a nonsensical proposal. The elections
:21:27. > :21:29.were 28 individual elections with hundreds of parties across Europe.
:21:30. > :21:32.To try to claim there is a democratic mandate for somebody
:21:33. > :21:43.nobody has heard from Luxembourg to take over the commission is a
:21:44. > :21:53.nonsense. People should know him, if I should say that ironically.
:21:54. > :22:00.Newspapers talking about members of the family of his wife with Nazi
:22:01. > :22:06.links... What is the answer to Martin Callinan's point? I think it
:22:07. > :22:10.is clear that British Conservatives have no candidate because they are
:22:11. > :22:15.not a broad European family, they have not impacted on the selection
:22:16. > :22:21.of top candidates but it is a form of isolation of the British Tory
:22:22. > :22:25.Party. The Prime Minister said if Mr Junker is appointed it could lead to
:22:26. > :22:31.Britain drifting towards the EU exit, is that credible? Is it
:22:32. > :22:34.melodramatic? It is true that we want to renegotiate the
:22:35. > :22:38.relationship. We want some serious reform in Europe so the people who
:22:39. > :22:43.vote in a referendum will be able to vote to stay in if that is what they
:22:44. > :22:51.want. We need a bold reformer, somebody prepared to engage. That is
:22:52. > :22:54.not anti the interests of the UK. We need to recognise there is a problem
:22:55. > :22:57.with public perception of the European Union. Elmar Brok is proud
:22:58. > :23:01.to be one of the last bastions of federalism that that is not where
:23:02. > :23:04.most of the public opinion is in Europe. I understand why he wants
:23:05. > :23:12.his man installed but we need to take into account the message of the
:23:13. > :23:16.letter -- the electorate. 25% of the publishing of France were prepared
:23:17. > :23:25.to vote for an openly racist party. We can't just ignore the signal that
:23:26. > :23:27.the electorate were sending us. If enthusiasm for federalism was at an
:23:28. > :23:31.all-time low, it would be a slap in the face for the voters of Europe to
:23:32. > :23:38.have a federalist as the president, would it not? 70, 80% of the members
:23:39. > :23:44.of the European Parliament, selected by their people, are pro-Europeans.
:23:45. > :23:47.These are the winners of the European elections. Even in France,
:23:48. > :23:51.a majority of voters have voted pro-European and that should be
:23:52. > :23:59.clear, not to make this a populist thing which is not only to do with
:24:00. > :24:08.Europe. And we want to have a Europe which is strong, the member states
:24:09. > :24:13.should do their things. We do not want to have a European centralism,
:24:14. > :24:16.we do not want a European state. This is not at stake. Let's talk
:24:17. > :24:22.about the question of better governance, let's talk about what
:24:23. > :24:25.was wrong in the past, we have to become better, to change our
:24:26. > :24:31.programme in that question. That should be the way we lead to come to
:24:32. > :24:36.positive results. Thank you for that. Before we go, there is a
:24:37. > :24:42.British commissioner that needs to be appointed to Brussels, do you
:24:43. > :24:45.like the sound of that? These are matters for the Prime Minister, I am
:24:46. > :24:52.sure he has many excellent candidates. Do you like the sound of
:24:53. > :25:00.it? Like previous British commissioners, Chris Patten, Neil
:25:01. > :25:01.clinic, I have just lost an election -- Neil Kinnock for the everybody
:25:02. > :25:06.who is asked would serve, I'm sure. Just days ago UKIP were celebrating
:25:07. > :25:10.topping the poll in the European They're claiming they'd have had two
:25:11. > :25:16.more MEPs and the Greens two fewer had another
:25:17. > :25:19.party not confused the electorate. What's more UKIP say it's
:25:20. > :25:22.the fault of the body which was set up to oversee
:25:23. > :25:36.elections - the Electoral Commission This is a party celebrating success
:25:37. > :25:43.at the European elections. They didn't win a single MEP but
:25:44. > :25:46.nationally polled 250,000 votes. They are an independence from
:25:47. > :25:51.Europe, mostly people who were once in UKIP, and that is rather the
:25:52. > :26:08.point. They may look like capers, drink like capers, sound like capers
:26:09. > :26:16.-- -- sound like kippers, but they are not. The name and the logo were
:26:17. > :26:21.displayed on this banner when the party launched its campaign. UKIP
:26:22. > :26:26.suggest the look, the wording and the inclusion of UK in now confused
:26:27. > :26:31.voters, and are looking at rewriting such a wrong. The way that seats are
:26:32. > :26:36.allocated in a European election under a proportional representation
:26:37. > :26:41.system is using this formula. It was invented by a Belgian mathematician
:26:42. > :26:48.in 1878 and it is essentially this. When all of the votes have been
:26:49. > :26:52.tallied up, the one with the most seats gets the first MEPC in a
:26:53. > :26:58.region. The others are allocated using votes cast divided by the
:26:59. > :27:04.number of seats gained plus one -- first MEP seat in a region. UKIP
:27:05. > :27:09.were concerned with South West and London. There they say, when the
:27:10. > :27:13.last MEP seats were being allocated, if everyone who had voted for an
:27:14. > :27:17.independence from Europe had meant to vote for UKIP and you tallied
:27:18. > :27:23.their votes up, and added them to UKIP, UKIP would have been up one in
:27:24. > :27:29.each region and the greens would have lost them. Whether you can
:27:30. > :27:36.prove that voters did that by mistake is a very different matter.
:27:37. > :27:39.UKIP may have to just chalk it up to experience. It has happened before,
:27:40. > :27:45.back in the European elections of 1994. Then in England under the
:27:46. > :27:50.first past the post system. This man, Richard Huggett, decided to
:27:51. > :27:54.stand as a little Democrat and polled a significant number of
:27:55. > :28:00.votes. The Liberal Democrat candidate at the time is now an MP.
:28:01. > :28:07.Many people voted and afterwards realised that they had bubbly voted
:28:08. > :28:11.for -- probably voted for a little Democrat, not a Liberal Democrat as
:28:12. > :28:15.they had been intending to do -- bubbly voted for a literal Democrat
:28:16. > :28:30.-- probably voted. Mr Sanders got some consolation In
:28:31. > :28:32.1998, laws came into rule on so-called spoiler tactics and the
:28:33. > :28:35.Electoral Commission was established. The Electoral
:28:36. > :28:38.Commission are based on the seventh floor of this building and they did
:28:39. > :28:41.look into this issue prior to voting. They have given us a
:28:42. > :28:46.statement that reveals the conclusion they came to, part of
:28:47. > :28:51.which says, we decided that the name of the party, and its description
:28:52. > :28:56.are sufficiently different to those registered by the UK Independence
:28:57. > :29:00.Party, UKIP, to mean, in our opinion, that voters were not likely
:29:01. > :29:07.to be confused if they appeared on the same ballot paper. Pretty
:29:08. > :29:11.conclusive stuff. Back at the pub, were an independence from Europe
:29:12. > :29:17.just being crafty, or do UKIP need to wake up and smell the flowers? We
:29:18. > :29:19.attack them in all areas. An independent study for Anglo
:29:20. > :29:24.Netherlands because I was involved in the Dutch -- with the Dutch
:29:25. > :29:30.member of Parliament and the description was UK Independence now,
:29:31. > :29:35.nobody has a monopoly on the word independence. I have been fighting
:29:36. > :29:40.for independence since I started in 1994, before I joined UKIP. The
:29:41. > :29:44.party tell me they will stand again at the general election next year.
:29:45. > :29:50.The ironies not lost on them or the major parties of UKIP complaining
:29:51. > :29:59.that a smaller party has been taking votes of them.
:30:00. > :30:02.Joining me now to discuss this story is Gawain Towler.
:30:03. > :30:06.He's the UKIP candidate for the South West region, who failed to get
:30:07. > :30:10.And in our Bristol studios is the victorious Green MEP for
:30:11. > :30:24.How many of the 23,000 votes that were cast for the Independence party
:30:25. > :30:29.were meant for you? Impossible to tell. I want to congratulate Molly
:30:30. > :30:34.for getting elected. They are the breaks. I do not think there is a
:30:35. > :30:47.purpose in complaining about boats that are cast. Do you think you
:30:48. > :30:49.would have one otherwise? Yes, I do. You have to look at the
:30:50. > :30:51.would have one otherwise? Yes, I do. You have to look boats for parties
:30:52. > :30:57.people have not heard of and those with a long tradition that people
:30:58. > :31:04.have heard of. I do not think there is any doubt. If you saw the spoiled
:31:05. > :31:09.ballot papers, the amount of people who had voted at the top and the
:31:10. > :31:15.bottom, most people are not anoraks, they say, they are the people I
:31:16. > :31:30.want. They know what they are after. I think it is at least told. It is
:31:31. > :31:37.said you owe your seat to And Independence Party. It is strange
:31:38. > :31:44.for a man to say he could represent people in the south-west better than
:31:45. > :31:50.me. There has been outpouring of delight that a Green MP has finally
:31:51. > :31:55.been elected. A number of people have been saying they have been
:31:56. > :31:59.voting all their lives and it is the first time they have elected
:32:00. > :32:04.anybody. I am glad to represent them in a significant legislature. What
:32:05. > :32:12.would you say to that? I find it strange. I am perfectly happy for
:32:13. > :32:17.her to be elected. I feel the electoral commission has questions
:32:18. > :32:23.to answer. But, congratulations to Molly. Why do you want an extra seat
:32:24. > :32:30.for the Greens in the European Parliament but your national share
:32:31. > :32:34.of the vote actually fell. We did come under pressure nationally. If
:32:35. > :32:39.he is complaining about the role the election commission said we could
:32:40. > :32:43.stand, the rule we were not happy with was the off, ruling which said
:32:44. > :32:50.we were not a main party. We got significantly less media time and
:32:51. > :32:53.that is why our belt actually fell. Not on the Daily Politics or the
:32:54. > :33:04.Sunday Politics, where you were well represented. Was it a problem for
:33:05. > :33:19.UKIP in other parts of the country? Only in London. What do you think
:33:20. > :33:23.happened there? Very much the same. I do not think there is any doubt,
:33:24. > :33:27.the number of people we have had getting in touch saying, I am really
:33:28. > :33:32.sorry, I made a mess, that they voted for the wrong party. They are
:33:33. > :33:37.the breaks. Politics is politics. What I would like to see and what is
:33:38. > :33:43.reasonable, and I hope Molly would agree, there needs to be a reform -
:33:44. > :33:50.a serious reform of the Electoral Commission. There is no appeal
:33:51. > :33:56.process. They say it is not confusing. Lets see if she thinks
:33:57. > :34:01.that. I make it a policy never to agree with UKIP. What is important
:34:02. > :34:04.to note, if you look at the votes and the way the votes fell out and
:34:05. > :34:08.the seats fell out in the south-west, it is difficult for an
:34:09. > :34:15.Electoral Commission to turn boats into seats. UKIP got 33% of the vote
:34:16. > :34:22.and 33% of the seats. For them, the system worked very well in the
:34:23. > :34:26.south-west. Nationally, Greens did not get represented as the vote
:34:27. > :34:30.share would require. That is because you get very small number of seats
:34:31. > :34:34.in the different regions and you have to reach a high threshold. The
:34:35. > :34:39.Green Party has a right to complain about the level of seats we have
:34:40. > :34:46.ended up with. White rapper you have complaints about the Electoral
:34:47. > :34:50.Commission? We need to move to a proportional system for elections
:34:51. > :34:54.generally. If we poll around 7% 8%, we should be looking at having 30,
:34:55. > :34:59.40 seats in the national legislature. We need to consider
:35:00. > :35:03.proportional representation for national elections. Do you accept
:35:04. > :35:08.the ballot paper may have confused some people? I think what happened
:35:09. > :35:15.is that some people in UKIP were very worried. Worried about the
:35:16. > :35:19.rightward move of UKIP and the authoritarian leadership of Nigel
:35:20. > :35:24.Farage. He set up a separate party. That is what happens in politics,
:35:25. > :35:35.particularly when parties are led by demagogues and are not focused on
:35:36. > :35:40.Democratic policy. Do you have any legal redress to this? None
:35:41. > :35:49.whatsoever. Have you had legal advice? I am told there is no
:35:50. > :35:53.redress. We do feel, I am sure Molly does not agree with UKIP on anything
:35:54. > :35:59.so, if we say the sun rises in the morning, she probably will disagree
:36:00. > :36:07.with that. If, at the next election, there is a party called the Grown
:36:08. > :36:11.Party, will she then complain? There needs to be some level of
:36:12. > :36:18.accountability and, without that, one wonders what is going on. We
:36:19. > :36:21.have an organisation with enormous and important power and influence
:36:22. > :36:29.which is setup to stop this of thing going on. It has failed. Not has it
:36:30. > :36:32.has failed. Not present served in Tower Hamlets and there have been
:36:33. > :36:38.massive problems with postal votes. It is failing on almost everything
:36:39. > :36:43.it is supposed to do. Just to go back for a final point from Molly.
:36:44. > :36:48.Should there be a right of appeal to the rulings of the Electoral
:36:49. > :36:50.Commission? You need to have an authoritative body that makes
:36:51. > :36:55.decisions in this area and we have the Electoral Commission. It is
:36:56. > :37:01.about being sore losers on the part of UKIP. I am delighted to represent
:37:02. > :37:07.people in the South West. Should there be a right of appeal or not?
:37:08. > :37:10.You need an authoritative body and the Electoral Commission is that. I
:37:11. > :37:12.do not think it should have a right to appeal.
:37:13. > :37:17.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:37:18. > :37:30.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be discussing extremism
:37:31. > :37:33.I'm Natalie Graham and this is the Sunday Politics in the South East.
:37:34. > :37:38.In just a few months, drivers using the Dartford river crossing will
:37:39. > :37:42.benefit from a new free`flow system, but is it just a short`term
:37:43. > :37:47.My guests this week are Labour's parliamentary candidate for
:37:48. > :37:50.South Thanet Will Scobie and the Conservative MP
:37:51. > :37:58.Now, we were off air last wdek, so this is the first chance we've
:37:59. > :38:00.had to mull over the results of the European Elections.
:38:01. > :38:04.The headline for the South East was, of course, that UKIP saw a rise
:38:05. > :38:09.They gained two seats, bringing their total to thrde.
:38:10. > :38:12.The Conservatives lost one MEP which means they now have three
:38:13. > :38:16.and the Liberal Democrats lost one MEP, so Catherine Bearder is now
:38:17. > :38:18.the only Lib Dem representative in Europe in the country.
:38:19. > :38:24.I'm going to ask the same question to both gtests.
:38:25. > :38:28.UKIP had over a 13% rise in their share of the vote, how are your
:38:29. > :38:43.We have to put it in context first of all. Labour does not do well in
:38:44. > :38:47.European elections, it has been 20 years since we have won one. There
:38:48. > :38:52.were some very good results for Labour in the local election, we did
:38:53. > :38:56.very well in Crawley and Hastings. Even in Thanet, the Labour vote went
:38:57. > :38:58.up. There is a lot of discontent with voters at the moment, that is
:38:59. > :39:02.why you could have done so well. We why you could have done so well We
:39:03. > :39:08.need to do more to reconnect with voters, `` why UKIP have done so
:39:09. > :39:11.well. Are they doing enough? Senior members of your party have told Ed
:39:12. > :39:13.Miliband they are not doing enough to pull over additional voters who
:39:14. > :39:15.to pull over additional votdrs who are being pulled over to UKIP?
:39:16. > :39:20.to pull over additional voters who are being pulled over to UKHP? That
:39:21. > :39:26.sounds you're area. If you talk to people on the doorstep, people say
:39:27. > :39:29.they will vote UKIP in the European elections unencumbered to L`bour. We
:39:30. > :39:33.have got to reconnect with those people. We have got exciting
:39:34. > :39:37.policies coming forward, particularly a big issue in Thanet,
:39:38. > :39:39.to do with private sector renting. The policies in the last few weeks
:39:40. > :39:44.will be helpful in those issues We will be helpful in those issues We
:39:45. > :39:49.have had a freeze in Alnwick sheet rices, zero hours contract `` energy
:39:50. > :39:54.prices, action on zero our contracts. Not everyone things you
:39:55. > :39:58.are getting it right, anothdr are getting it right, anothdr
:39:59. > :40:00.Parliamentary candidate in Kent was exposed by the Sunday Times saying
:40:01. > :40:05.Ed Miliband hasn't got what it takes to win. Everyone has got different
:40:06. > :40:09.views but we are all trying to reconnect with voters. If we had it
:40:10. > :40:15.right now, we would not see UKIP doing so well. You are doing badly
:40:16. > :40:18.with UKIP, Nigel Farage will be standing in your area, you will be
:40:19. > :40:23.at the forefront of the fight against the party. I am just
:40:24. > :40:27.focusing what I can do with the area, I am a local candidatd, I have
:40:28. > :40:28.lived there my entire life, I am trying my best to stand up and
:40:29. > :40:31.improve it. Whoever UKIP brhng trying my best to stand up `nd
:40:32. > :40:33.improve it. Whoever UKIP brhng in are going to be a candidate being
:40:34. > :40:34.parachuted in, they are onlx are going to be a candidate being
:40:35. > :40:36.parachuted in, they are only going parachuted in, they are only going
:40:37. > :40:40.to be there because it is their best chance of being elected as an MP.
:40:41. > :40:44.The voters can choose someone who has come into the area to use it as
:40:45. > :40:46.a platform for other things or an MP who is going to be there,
:40:47. > :40:49.campaigning to improve the `rea campaigning to improve the area,
:40:50. > :40:53.which is what I'm going to be doing. UKIP are a big threat to yotr
:40:54. > :40:53.which is what I'm going to be doing. UKIP are a big threat to your party,
:40:54. > :40:55.UKIP are a big threat to yotr party, if not more, than it is for Labour.
:40:56. > :41:00.A number of messages have come from A number of messages have come from
:41:01. > :41:03.people supporting UKIP, they A number of messages have come from
:41:04. > :41:04.people supporting UKIP, thex are unhappy on issues such as
:41:05. > :41:08.immigration, they want to sde a immigration, they want to sde a
:41:09. > :41:11.control on people coming into the country. We want to see our
:41:12. > :41:11.relationship with the European country. We want to see our
:41:12. > :41:13.relationship with the Europdan Union relationship with the Europdan Union
:41:14. > :41:16.redefined, which is why we need to get across that the only way you
:41:17. > :41:20.would get a proper referendtm on the European Union is to vote in a
:41:21. > :41:23.Conservative government. Labour are saying they will not have a
:41:24. > :41:31.referendum if they win. UKIP are not going to be able to win the next
:41:32. > :41:32.general election. So we need to get across these messages that `re
:41:33. > :41:33.general election. So we need to get across these messages that are quite
:41:34. > :41:37.across these messages that `re quite clear, that lay some of the fears
:41:38. > :41:39.that people have showed. How do you do that, what needs to happdn in
:41:40. > :41:39.that people have showed. How do you do that, what needs to happen in the
:41:40. > :41:44.do that, what needs to happdn in the next year? What a David Cameron has
:41:45. > :41:46.to say to allay those fears? The worst thing we can do is try to
:41:47. > :41:52.worst thing we can do is trx to out`UKIP UKIP. If Europe is a big
:41:53. > :41:56.decision for you, the only way you will get a decision on whether to be
:41:57. > :42:00.in the European Union is to vote Conservative. We are the only party
:42:01. > :42:04.able to offer a referendum on whether the UK should be in the EU
:42:05. > :42:07.or not. What was also clear from the European elections, there is no
:42:08. > :42:11.enthusiast and whatsoever from Ed Miliband or Ed Balls, that was quite
:42:12. > :42:14.clear, we saw that recently in Newark as well, there is no concept
:42:15. > :42:17.of there being a government in waiting being put forward bx the
:42:18. > :42:20.waiting being put forward by the Labour Party. We have to move
:42:21. > :42:23.forward, sorry, you will get your chance? !
:42:24. > :42:25.Now, Ann Barnes, Kent's Polhce and Crime Commissioner,
:42:26. > :42:28.has prided herself on raising the profile of policing in Kent,
:42:29. > :42:32.but she can't be too proud of the media coverage she's had this week.
:42:33. > :42:34.Her second Youth Commissiondr has temporarily been relieved of her
:42:35. > :42:37.duties following allegations she had a close friendship with a married
:42:38. > :42:41.It came a just few days aftdr Mrs Barnes was accused
:42:42. > :42:44.of making the force a laughing stock by taking part
:42:45. > :42:52.These are all the various things, different kinds of policing, OK
:42:53. > :42:58.So what would be an example of a crime on the outside of that rim?
:42:59. > :43:03.I wasn't thinking I was going to talk about the onion.
:43:04. > :43:11.After that performance, there were calls for her resignathon.
:43:12. > :43:14.And this Thursday, she faced the Kent Police and
:43:15. > :43:18.Crime Panel, a scrutiny body which oversees her role.
:43:19. > :43:22.I would like to offer an apology, especially to the hard`workhng men
:43:23. > :43:26.and women of Kent police, who, I know, some of them are very upset
:43:27. > :43:34.I think some people have said you've treated members, senior members
:43:35. > :43:39.We've had three train crashes coming through now.
:43:40. > :43:41.I'd just like to ask the commissioner bluntly,
:43:42. > :43:47.Still, she says for the moment she'll remain in her job, the chair
:43:48. > :43:50.of that Committee said he was impressed by her apology and the
:43:51. > :43:53.Police Federation, which represents rank and file police officers,
:43:54. > :43:55.welcomed the apology and said they were looking forward
:43:56. > :44:04.Quick question to both of you, do you think she should have rdsigned?
:44:05. > :44:08.I think she needs to do somd serious rethinking. Rather than talking
:44:09. > :44:11.about the excellent work thd police about the excellent work the police
:44:12. > :44:16.Tuesday in day out for the last two weeks, we have been talking about
:44:17. > :44:17.some of the mistakes she has made, it was incredibly embarrasshng.
:44:18. > :44:19.some of the mistakes she has made, it was incredibly embarrassing. I do
:44:20. > :44:22.not think she should resign necessarily but she needs to have a
:44:23. > :44:24.hard thing about whether she wants to accept these kind of medha
:44:25. > :44:25.to accept these kind of media engagements. Going on to thdse
:44:26. > :44:26.to accept these kind of medha engagements. Going on to these kind
:44:27. > :44:36.engagements. Going on to thdse kind of media engagements. Going onto the
:44:37. > :44:40.bound to be issues there. So she needs to find new advisers. So
:44:41. > :44:46.naivete, sheeny has embarrassed the police, she needs to move on? I do
:44:47. > :44:49.not think I care about what people think about her, but I know I care
:44:50. > :44:53.about what people think about Kent about what people think abott Kent
:44:54. > :44:54.police. It is a very good Constabulary, people are working
:44:55. > :44:59.very hard to police the are`, Constabulary, people are working
:45:00. > :45:02.very hard to police the area, and she `` and they are being undermined
:45:03. > :45:09.by this keystone cop commission. You by this keystone cop commission. You
:45:10. > :45:12.should care about this. I think we are very close to her having to
:45:13. > :45:22.stand down. You are starting short of saying she should? `` stopping
:45:23. > :45:23.short? Kent police could do better than an Barnes. The Conserv`tive
:45:24. > :45:31.than an Barnes. The Conservative candidate, maybe? Your candhdate
:45:32. > :45:33.lost to Mrs Barnes, if that is what is going on? A lot of the people
:45:34. > :45:33.lost to Mrs Barnes, if that is what is going on? A lot of the pdople in
:45:34. > :45:39.is going on? A lot of the people in your party think she should go.
:45:40. > :45:41.Police commissioners are a good idea because they created accountability
:45:42. > :45:48.between the public and the police. It did not work if someone in it did
:45:49. > :45:52.`` there is someone inept doing the job. There is not a suggesthon
:45:53. > :45:52.`` there is someone inept doing the job. There is not a suggestion she
:45:53. > :45:53.job. There is not a suggesthon she is inept, she has embarrassed
:45:54. > :45:53.job. There is not a suggestion she is inept, she has embarrassdd the
:45:54. > :45:55.police, she has admitted that, is inept, she has embarrassed the
:45:56. > :46:01.police, she has admitted th`t, you could also argue that she has raised
:46:02. > :46:03.the profile of the job. She was also seen in the documentary holding
:46:04. > :46:09.offices to account. Do you think there is resentment on a half of
:46:10. > :46:15.officers that she is good at the job? I have yet to find an officer
:46:16. > :46:18.who thought she was good at the job. She has spent money on renovating
:46:19. > :46:20.property, wasted money, her judgement has singled into puestion
:46:21. > :46:26.judgement has singled into question on more than one occasion. `` called
:46:27. > :46:27.into question. We have an in Paris than as a police Commissiondr for
:46:28. > :46:30.Kent. The big picture, `` we had than as a police Commissioner for
:46:31. > :46:37.Kent. The big picture, `` wd had an embarrassment. The federation is
:46:38. > :46:42.also saying they are looking forward to building bridges with an Barnes.
:46:43. > :46:45.We had in the Queens speech last week, that MPs should be able to be
:46:46. > :46:51.recalled, should the same applied to the police Commissioner? We could
:46:52. > :46:52.look into it. I do not see what she has done wrong which means she
:46:53. > :46:55.should lose her job. We have has done wrong which means she
:46:56. > :46:57.should lose her job. We have seen this media hunt around Kerrx Boyd,
:46:58. > :47:00.this media hunt around Kerry Boyd, the use Commissioner. She h`s had
:47:01. > :47:07.her name dragged through the mud, her name dragged through thd mud,
:47:08. > :47:08.but we do not know the facts. But polished as `` but politicians
:47:09. > :47:08.but we do not know the facts. But polished as `` but politici`ns are
:47:09. > :47:11.polished as `` but politicians are using this as a stick to be`t the
:47:12. > :47:13.using this as a stick to beat the Commissioner with. These ard two
:47:14. > :47:16.Commissioner with. These are two separate issues. Challenge Lrs
:47:17. > :47:21.Barnes on what cheating on her job, but the other things are not
:47:22. > :47:24.relevant. I should point out that this is Barnes is not here to rebut
:47:25. > :47:31.the allegations you just me`n about the allegations you just me`n about
:47:32. > :47:37.expenditure in her office. Hs it not time for her to move on, she has
:47:38. > :47:42.acknowledged her mistakes, she should get on with her job? We have
:47:43. > :47:46.seen that evidence that she would be a capable Commissioner. We have got
:47:47. > :47:48.a very good Constabulary in Kent. Crime is coming down, officdrs are
:47:49. > :47:54.working hard at management and working hard at management and
:47:55. > :47:58.Constable and Sergeant Neville, we should celebrate that. We should
:47:59. > :48:03.have a commissioner who is celebrating them and helping them
:48:04. > :48:05.but we have the opposite of that. This is what the Conservative party
:48:06. > :48:06.wanted in the role, what dods it This is what the Conservative party
:48:07. > :48:10.wanted in the role, what dods it say about the job if you are so
:48:11. > :48:13.frustrated with the person who is doing about? This is why it is
:48:14. > :48:17.frustrating, the policy is good because the first time the public
:48:18. > :48:18.are able to hold the police to account with the Commissiondr.
:48:19. > :48:22.are able to hold the police to account with the Commissioner. It
:48:23. > :48:26.works well around the country and the world. It is being undermined by
:48:27. > :48:32.a commissioner who is not doing her job properly. The chair of the panel
:48:33. > :48:33.said that she was refreshing in her approach and her apology, w`s the
:48:34. > :48:39.approach and her apology, was the panel tough enough in their
:48:40. > :48:40.questions? I think they were, I asked them questions afterw`rd and I
:48:41. > :48:47.listen to it on the radio. I think listen to it on the radio. H think
:48:48. > :48:49.they did very well, and somd good questions are being raised, even
:48:50. > :48:52.when the media spotlight is not on them. They are talking about
:48:53. > :48:56.policing which is what we should be focusing on not the bits around it.
:48:57. > :49:02.Should they have the power of recall, in a world `` in a word No.
:49:03. > :49:04.If you've ever used the river crossing at Dartford,
:49:05. > :49:07.you'll know that it's a journey that can be frustratingly slow, fraught
:49:08. > :49:11.Very soon, though, your journey could be quicker as the new
:49:12. > :49:15.But how long will drivers fdel the benefits?
:49:16. > :49:17.And do we need a longer`term solution?
:49:18. > :49:22.MUSIC: "2`4`6`8 Motorway" by Tom Robinson Band
:49:23. > :49:25.The notorious Dartford to Thurrock River Crossing.
:49:26. > :49:28.One of the slowest and most congested sections
:49:29. > :49:33.# Drive my truck midway to the motorway station
:49:34. > :49:36.# Fairlane cruisers coming up on the left`hand side... #
:49:37. > :49:39.The crossing was built for a capacity of
:49:40. > :49:46.It now regularly carries over 160,000.
:49:47. > :49:51.A figure that's set to rise by up to 20% in the coming xears.
:49:52. > :49:55.Lorry driver Matt Smith uses the road several times a dax.
:49:56. > :49:59.This is a good day, but this can be solid for miles.
:50:00. > :50:03.Soon, these old pay stations will be ripped out to make way for Britain's
:50:04. > :50:12.The system, costing ?367 million over ten years, will use automatic
:50:13. > :50:17.The Highways Agency reckon ht will improve journey times
:50:18. > :50:23.Matt's boss, Chris Smart, is sceptical.
:50:24. > :50:25.Being based in Dartford, we've got to use it.
:50:26. > :50:29.It costs us a lot of money, we have a small fleet
:50:30. > :50:33.of six vehicles but we can be using that ten to 12 times a day.
:50:34. > :50:38.On average, it's costing me between 4,500 to ?5,000 per year.
:50:39. > :50:41.I do feel it's a very expensive experiment.
:50:42. > :50:44.I don't think it's going to make that much difference.
:50:45. > :50:48.The government says the free flow system is good news, cutting harmful
:50:49. > :50:52.emissions and keeping traffic movin for another ten years,
:50:53. > :50:57.with the region feeling the economic benefit within 12 months.
:50:58. > :51:03.For UK traffic, DVLA records will be used.
:51:04. > :51:07.A specialist agency in Europe will track down overseas vehicles.
:51:08. > :51:10.Officials estimate the loss of revenue
:51:11. > :51:14.from foreign lorries skipping the toll could be around ?6 million.
:51:15. > :51:18.Others think it could be millions more.
:51:19. > :51:22.The noncompliance rates typically for this type of scheme are
:51:23. > :51:30.Recovery rates on that, difficult to judge.
:51:31. > :51:34.But, you know, we take evasion seriously.
:51:35. > :51:38.The whole credibility of thd scheme will fall into disrepute if we don't
:51:39. > :51:45.The government recognises that this crossing is vital for the continued
:51:46. > :51:51.Nearly half of the traffic that uses it is made up
:51:52. > :51:57.It's also widely recognised that the free flow system is onlx
:51:58. > :52:01.a short`term solution and what the south`east really needs
:52:02. > :52:06.After years of discussion, plans for the Lower Thames crossing
:52:07. > :52:16.Option A runs adjacent to the existing Dartford Crosshng.
:52:17. > :52:24.And option C links Kent and Essex east of Gravesend.
:52:25. > :52:29.Kent county council favours option C costing ?3.24 billion.
:52:30. > :52:34.But some locals fear a final decision is being ptt off.
:52:35. > :52:37.Our concern about free flow is not the free flow
:52:38. > :52:40.system itself, our concern about it is that it has been used,
:52:41. > :52:44.particularly by our Conserv`tive MP, as an excuse to delay the
:52:45. > :52:48.government's decision on location of a new Lower Thames crossing.
:52:49. > :52:52.And really, that decision has to be made imminently.
:52:53. > :52:56.Dartford cannot afford any more delay on this decision.
:52:57. > :53:00.# Two, four, six, eight, never too late
:53:01. > :53:03.# Me and my radio trucking on through the night... #
:53:04. > :53:06.Although the preferred location of the Lower Thames crossing should
:53:07. > :53:09.be announced by the end of this year, with
:53:10. > :53:13.a general election on the horizon, some fear that date may slip.
:53:14. > :53:16.In the meantime, officials will be keeping
:53:17. > :53:20.a close eye on the impact of the new free flow system, a scheme that is
:53:21. > :53:24.welcomed, but only offers tdmporary relief to a much bigger problem
:53:25. > :53:31.Joining us in the studio now is Natalie Chapman, of the
:53:32. > :53:40.Where do you think the second crossing should go?
:53:41. > :53:45.We think option seat would give the biggest strategic benefits for the
:53:46. > :53:49.area. We have got to remember this area. We have got to remembdr this
:53:50. > :53:53.is not just a regional crossing, it has got national significance. The
:53:54. > :53:54.studies have shown that it will give the biggest economic boost as
:53:55. > :53:54.studies have shown that it will give the biggest economic boost `s well,
:53:55. > :54:00.the biggest economic boost as well, and also help growth and
:54:01. > :54:02.regeneration across East Kent. It would cost a lot and be hugely
:54:03. > :54:04.would cost a lot and be hugdly damaging to the buyer and? There's
:54:05. > :54:12.other downsides. It is by far the other downsides. It is by far the
:54:13. > :54:15.most extensive option, in terms of construction costs, and it does have
:54:16. > :54:20.environmental concerns. So you think environmental concerns. So you think
:54:21. > :54:24.the second crossing benefit the national economy, wherever ht goes?
:54:25. > :54:34.If the third option becomes more difficult, to expensive or
:54:35. > :54:37.contentious, or that, let's just get on and build the first option. The
:54:38. > :54:43.delay is the most important thing. We need additional capacity, and all
:54:44. > :54:46.too often, we wait, we build our houses, create our jobs and then
:54:47. > :54:49.think about the structure to support them afterwards. We need to start
:54:50. > :54:54.thinking ahead for the future and what they need for the south`east
:54:55. > :54:55.and the national economy. In terms of the free flow system, we heard
:54:56. > :54:57.from a haulier there, he said it of the free flow system, we heard
:54:58. > :54:57.from a haulier there, he sahd it is from a haulier there, he said it is
:54:58. > :54:59.going to cost him and not bd from a haulier there, he sahd it is
:55:00. > :55:02.going to cost him and not bd worth it. What is your feeling an
:55:03. > :55:07.organisation? We think it is going to help the current congesthon,
:55:08. > :55:09.organisation? We think it is going to help the current congestion, the
:55:10. > :55:12.proof will be in the pudding. We have to see what happens not just
:55:13. > :55:16.come October when it goes into place, but we will not feel the real
:55:17. > :55:20.benefit until this time next year. There is a certain amount of
:55:21. > :55:25.construction that has got to happen with the toll Plaza. We will not
:55:26. > :55:28.feel the benefit until next year. We are waiting to see the impact of
:55:29. > :55:32.free flow, that means anothdr weight, more delay, that is very
:55:33. > :55:35.frustrating for everybody, not least you, you have got a fight of
:55:36. > :55:40.election next year. I agree we need another crossing across the Thames,
:55:41. > :55:44.we need to take away the congestion even when we have the free flow
:55:45. > :55:46.system. It will be unwise to decide where we are going to put new
:55:47. > :55:50.where we are going to put ndw crossing without first seeing the
:55:51. > :55:56.effects of the flow system. Why, what is that God is to be `` what
:55:57. > :56:04.has not got to do with it? Dveryone agrees the second crossing has got
:56:05. > :56:06.to be made. We do not know what is going to happen when the traffic
:56:07. > :56:11.flow will be changed in October We flow will be changed in October. We
:56:12. > :56:12.continually did but we do not know what is going to happen unthl
:56:13. > :56:12.continually did but we do not know what is going to happen until we
:56:13. > :56:16.what is going to happen unthl we remove the booths. Traffic is
:56:17. > :56:21.predicted to grow in the next decade, you going to change your
:56:22. > :56:25.mind and then say, put it in my constituency? Because you are going
:56:26. > :56:28.to be opposed to it the momdnt. There are variants that we need to
:56:29. > :56:33.talk about, we need to sit see whether we go for a variant on the
:56:34. > :56:41.third option. When we had the consultation last year, people said
:56:42. > :56:49.they were concerned on the environmental and packed of options
:56:50. > :56:50.a and C. They wanted us to look the impact. We know that someond is
:56:51. > :56:50.a and C. They wanted us to look the impact. We know that someone is art
:56:51. > :56:56.impact. We know that someond is art under threat `` some words are under
:56:57. > :57:01.under threat `` some words `re under threat with the third option. The
:57:02. > :57:04.government said they were going to make a decision this year,
:57:05. > :57:08.presumably it would suit you if they delay it after the election, then
:57:09. > :57:15.you would not have any awkwardness with your constituents? The cheapest
:57:16. > :57:23.and quickest option is to expand the crossing to your constituency. That
:57:24. > :57:27.will not give any alternatives to my constituency, we have got
:57:28. > :57:29.expansion... The thing is, motorists, residents, the freight
:57:30. > :57:34.transport Association, everyone is transport Association, everxone is
:57:35. > :57:37.frustrated with the delay. The accusation is, this is going to lose
:57:38. > :57:40.Conservative votes wherever it is built, why not get on with ht?
:57:41. > :57:40.Conservative votes wherever it is built, why not get on with it? Is
:57:41. > :57:43.Conservative votes wherever it is built, why not get on with ht? Is it
:57:44. > :57:45.about the politics and losing votes? The important thing is we gdt it
:57:46. > :57:48.The important thing is we get it right. The important thing hs
:57:49. > :57:50.The important thing is we gdt it right. The important thing is that
:57:51. > :57:54.we should not go ahead and we have got no idea what is going to happen
:57:55. > :57:58.with the toll booths. You are a Kent county council and the council's
:57:59. > :58:01.preferred option is the third option. Yes, and coming back to that
:58:02. > :58:05.point, we do need clarity on it. I point, we do need clarity on it. I
:58:06. > :58:09.agree with a lot of what Natalie said, time after time with this
:58:10. > :58:10.government we see key infrastructure carbon project being delayed. Now
:58:11. > :58:18.everything is happening aftdr the everything is happening aftdr the
:58:19. > :58:18.election. The third route would still be environmentally damaging,
:58:19. > :58:23.still be environmentally dalaging, you are still confident that is the
:58:24. > :58:25.best way? We need clarity. We do not want any more delays, we want an
:58:26. > :58:26.announcement to say where wd want any more delays, we want an
:58:27. > :58:30.announcement to say where we are going. We have got businessds and
:58:31. > :58:35.residents and the council trying to make plans for the future and they
:58:36. > :58:40.do not not what is happening. It keeps get kicked into the long
:58:41. > :58:51.grass. Time now to look at the week in 60 seconds.
:58:52. > :58:59.The bill will enhance the United Kingdom's energy independence. The
:59:00. > :59:05.Queens speech announced changing to laws to allow people to fret `` to
:59:06. > :59:09.allow fracking in people 's houses without permission. EDF has appealed
:59:10. > :59:12.to the nuclear regulator to extended operation at the Dungeness B plant
:59:13. > :59:15.but was accused of trying to move the goalposts. The energy firm wants
:59:16. > :59:24.the goalposts. The energy fhrm wants graphite bricks around the reactor
:59:25. > :59:28.to be allowed more `` degradation than the current regulation. East
:59:29. > :59:32.Sussex Fire and rescue will cut 40 jobs and use a fire engine. It needs
:59:33. > :59:37.to save ?7 million. Medway Council called an obesity summit, whth
:59:38. > :59:39.members of many sectors brainstorming idea to get residents
:59:40. > :59:43.brainstorming idea to get rdsidents slimming down. The third of adults
:59:44. > :59:53.are severely overweight there. We have got to ensure our youngsters
:59:54. > :59:56.have the best start in life. East Sussex Fire service is making those
:59:57. > :59:58.cuts, the union says it will cost lives, but they are forced to do so
:59:59. > :59:59.by the government? These are lives, but they are forced to do so
:00:00. > :00:02.by the government? These ard part of by the government? These ard part of
:00:03. > :00:05.the government's difficult decisions. We have seen some of
:00:06. > :00:06.the government's difficult decisions. We have seen somd of the
:00:07. > :00:24.worst economic conditions shnce the Second World War,
:00:25. > :00:36.my guests. That is it for the Sunday Politics in London. Back to Andrew.
:00:37. > :00:40.Is enough being done to tackle extremism in schools?
:00:41. > :00:49.Will Mr Cameron stopped Mr Junker, will make
:00:50. > :01:11.we are joined by the founder of the Quilliam Association. If you read
:01:12. > :01:15.the Sunday Telegraph this morning, there is a real problem. If you read
:01:16. > :01:30.the Observer, there is not much of a problem. What is the situation in
:01:31. > :01:37.your view in Birmingham? Allegations are seen to be -- if music was not
:01:38. > :01:41.being taught as it should be. Instead of the rating the national
:01:42. > :01:44.holidays here during the Christmas period, children were sent off
:01:45. > :01:51.instead on religious pilgrimage to Mecca, then I think something is
:01:52. > :02:00.going on. From my knowledge, I know about some of the strategies to
:02:01. > :02:05.influence. These strategies are known as gradualism. The idea, like
:02:06. > :02:11.the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is to join the institutions of society
:02:12. > :02:18.and influence from within -- from within. It is a gradual approach to
:02:19. > :02:24.Islamicisation society. We have seen that happening in other areas, such
:02:25. > :02:29.as the decision by the Law Society to call it shy and issue it out as
:02:30. > :02:32.guidance for solicitors. They are saying this means that women inherit
:02:33. > :02:41.half of what men saying this means that women inherit
:02:42. > :02:41.and adopted children do not get any inheritance. Apostates do not get
:02:42. > :02:46.any inheritance. These are guidelines being issued by the Law
:02:47. > :02:52.Society by Islamic. It is a medieval take on Islam. That is what is
:02:53. > :02:59.meant. We see the same names popping up again and again in different
:03:00. > :03:03.situations in Birmingham. Is it a planned infiltration? In my
:03:04. > :03:05.profession of you and planned infiltration? In my
:03:06. > :03:08.profession of you having spent 13 profession of you having spent 3
:03:09. > :03:08.years on the leadership of an Islamist organisation, having been
:03:09. > :03:21.involved Islamist organisation, having been
:03:22. > :03:21.and setting up schools, I am very Islamist organisation, having been
:03:22. > :03:24.certain is a deliberate plan to influence the students of this
:03:25. > :03:28.country with a medieval interpretation of my own faith to
:03:29. > :03:33.bring about a medieval, conservative view, and enforce things like
:03:34. > :03:37.segregation on boys and girls within our public institutions. With these
:03:38. > :03:43.things be acceptable if they were explicitly they schools? If they
:03:44. > :03:49.were state. We had state Anglican faith schools. We have state
:03:50. > :03:56.Catholic faith schools as well. Would it be acceptable if these were
:03:57. > :04:01.state Islamic schools? That is a policy question. I am not generally
:04:02. > :04:07.in favour. I would believe in this establishment. I am not a fan of
:04:08. > :04:12.faith schools. I do think the solution is to ban them. I do think
:04:13. > :04:17.these schools should start working out with an engaging with the wider
:04:18. > :04:22.communities and not being insular and looking inwards. It is very
:04:23. > :04:26.important. The Ofsted report is coming out tomorrow. We have already
:04:27. > :04:32.had a taste about what it is saying about some of the schools. Is it a
:04:33. > :04:39.serious problem? It is a very serious problem. It comes from the
:04:40. > :04:42.segregation of children into intensely populated areas where
:04:43. > :04:47.everyone is Muslim virtually. You have to have a system of spreading
:04:48. > :04:51.children between schools. It very often happens, even with a secular
:04:52. > :04:55.school like this. Nearby Catholic or Church of England schools become
:04:56. > :04:59.like-for-like schools and that leaves the rest of the state schools
:05:00. > :05:03.to become all of one faith. I think all of the parties are being quite
:05:04. > :05:09.hypocritical about the profound problem of continuing to have faith
:05:10. > :05:13.schools. You have Orthodox Jewish schools with extraordinary dogma
:05:14. > :05:17.being taught. Indeed very strict Catholic schools with amazing dogma
:05:18. > :05:22.being taught. To somehow only get worried when it is Islamic, when it
:05:23. > :05:26.is Muslim schools, becomes a problem. You have to look at the
:05:27. > :05:30.whole issue and said the state should simply withdraw from the
:05:31. > :05:45.business of faith education. Like France? Yes, a secular school. The
:05:46. > :05:50.overall government policy is to take power away. The dilemma with that is
:05:51. > :05:53.that it comes with dangers. Some schools will be incompetent and some
:05:54. > :05:57.schools will be more than incompetent, they will be maligned
:05:58. > :06:02.in some respects. The one bit of this policy which has never been
:06:03. > :06:07.entirely squared is how do you devolve and retain a basic minimum
:06:08. > :06:10.of educational standards and behavioural standards while doing
:06:11. > :06:14.it? There is an even deeper quandary for Britain. We have prided
:06:15. > :06:19.ourselves on allowing radical views that stop short of violence. We took
:06:20. > :06:23.on Karl Marx and the rest of Europe would not have him. The rest of
:06:24. > :06:27.Europe could not believe how tolerably well of radical preachers
:06:28. > :06:35.in the 1990s. Do we stick with that view? The risks were greater than
:06:36. > :06:39.they were 100 years ago. We do expect, whatever peoples faith, that
:06:40. > :06:43.our children, at the expense of the taxpayer, are educated, not
:06:44. > :06:48.instructed, not indoctrinated, educated. We do expect that and also
:06:49. > :06:52.that boys and girls are treated equally. One of the things the board
:06:53. > :06:56.in Birmingham will be looking at which has Andrew Mitchell on it, the
:06:57. > :06:59.former development Secretary, because he is a Birmingham MP full
:07:00. > :07:04.Sutton, they are really concerned about whether the girls are being
:07:05. > :07:10.treated as second-class citizens. There has been a lot of work done on
:07:11. > :07:14.empowerment of girls. Shirley Williams made the point that what
:07:15. > :07:17.Michael Gove has done by creating free schools and academies is
:07:18. > :07:20.undermined the work of local education authorities. They think
:07:21. > :07:27.they are traditional bodies which are not open to reform. One school
:07:28. > :07:35.in Birmingham which is accused of being in trouble is a local
:07:36. > :07:40.education school. They cannot have the other side. Under Michael Gove,
:07:41. > :07:44.they are answerable to the Secretary of State. It is down to Ofsted.
:07:45. > :07:49.Ofsted is giving the schools, not that long ago, outstanding marks.
:07:50. > :07:53.There are big questions about the oversight of schools. Tristan Hunt
:07:54. > :07:57.was trying to answer that point. By tapping it cannot all have gone pear
:07:58. > :08:08.shaped in two years. How do you think that will play out? -- it
:08:09. > :08:11.cannot have gone pear shaped. The story was broken in February. It
:08:12. > :08:16.will keep playing out. The report that was due out Ofsted is tomorrow
:08:17. > :08:20.or Monday. Then there is the other report that will look into wider
:08:21. > :08:29.questions, that will come out in July, I think. We are expecting two
:08:30. > :08:33.points. -- reports. We have to look at questions of Ofsted and other
:08:34. > :08:37.institutions in our society, even government departments, where idea
:08:38. > :08:46.of taxing non-violent extremism became a too boot in this country.
:08:47. > :08:54.-- a taboo. They must be rebuffed the challenge, as we would expect
:08:55. > :08:59.racism to be challenged. In the argument between Michael Gove and
:09:00. > :09:03.Theresa May, where do you side? They should be challenged openly and
:09:04. > :09:08.robust leap by civilian society. It was settled by the Prime Minister
:09:09. > :09:17.and is government policy. I had a hand in advising or consulting. I
:09:18. > :09:25.think Fiona Cunningham was forced to resign because what she did violates
:09:26. > :09:45.official government policy. It just has not been implemented yet. Will
:09:46. > :09:48.Mr Cameron succeed with Juncke? You'll agree he have to decide
:09:49. > :09:53.whether he will spirit at stopping him or accepting him as commission
:09:54. > :09:56.president and ask in return for a massive commission portfolio for
:09:57. > :10:00.Britain, something like the internal market, which they missed out on
:10:01. > :10:09.last time. It is a diplomatic decision he have to make. It is too
:10:10. > :10:14.late for that he is into deep. If he takes over the job, Cameron is left
:10:15. > :10:21.with egg on its face. From the beginning, he did not have his voice
:10:22. > :10:27.with the weight of the British Conservative Party, with ankle and
:10:28. > :10:32.Arkle, the rest of them. He is reaping -- Angela Merkel, the rest
:10:33. > :10:42.of them. He is reaping that reward. There is a lot of support within
:10:43. > :10:47.Europe. In Germany, there was a lot of opposition to David Cameron
:10:48. > :10:51.getting his way. I know him from Brussels. He is entertaining, you go
:10:52. > :10:55.to dinner with him and he smokes and drinks. He is entertaining but he is
:10:56. > :10:59.the most awful person you could think of having trying to sort of
:11:00. > :11:03.symbolise a new European Union. I remember I was there join the
:11:04. > :11:06.Luxembourg presidency in 2005 when the voters in France and the
:11:07. > :11:11.Netherlands voted no to the European constitution, what was his response
:11:12. > :11:20.to that? Let's carry on with the ratification process of this treaty
:11:21. > :11:22.that has been comprehensively rejected by voters. He did not say
:11:23. > :11:27.the final bit of that sentence. You can see why Eurosceptics want him.
:11:28. > :11:31.He has blown a raspy at all the people who have protested at the
:11:32. > :11:45.elections with the way the European Union is going. -- blown a Rasberry.
:11:46. > :11:59.This is your most popular... What has come in most recently is doing
:12:00. > :12:09.really well. This is yours. There we go. Cheers! By our people so
:12:10. > :12:17.cynical? They always go for a drink at 11am and they pull their own
:12:18. > :12:24.pipes. I see them every day. -- pts. Is there anything Mr Clegg can do is
:12:25. > :12:29.to mark the idea is to define clearly a liberal brand, or at least
:12:30. > :12:32.I hope it is. It is not good enough for us to say the Liberal Democrats
:12:33. > :12:36.challenge the Tories on this, on the fairer society, and challenge the
:12:37. > :12:40.Labour Party on a strong economy. We need to define what we stand for.
:12:41. > :12:46.That is what I call a liberal brand, assertive liberalism. I have been
:12:47. > :12:52.there myself and I think that is what he will be speaking about.
:12:53. > :12:57.Standing up for liberal values, to finding -- defining what they are.
:12:58. > :13:00.Disestablishment in getting younger people re-engage with politics. The
:13:01. > :13:07.overwhelming number are actually liberal. We only have about 20
:13:08. > :13:14.seconds. I suggest to you it is too late. Sign up with the one principle
:13:15. > :13:21.on which he stood is Europe. -- the one principle on which he stood if
:13:22. > :13:27.Europe. That is why he has been doing so badly. He cannot get out of
:13:28. > :13:30.the hole he is in. If you fight three general elections to the left
:13:31. > :13:44.of Labour and on the third when you are in coalition with the Tories,
:13:45. > :13:51.you have got a problem. I will be back next week. Remember if it is
:13:52. > :14:19.Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics. What's the hardest thing
:14:20. > :14:21.about being a foster parent? You're constantly trying
:14:22. > :14:24.to build the elusive trust. It's like a big old question mark
:14:25. > :14:27.in your heart. I just try and do the best I can
:14:28. > :14:30.for them while they're with me Join Lorraine Pascale as
:14:31. > :14:33.she looks at stories of fostering... I wasn't happy at all, but now I am.
:14:34. > :14:36...including her own.