15/06/2014

:00:37. > :00:44.Well, this is the closest I'll get to Rio.

:00:45. > :00:49.The advance of the Islamist army on Baghdad has been slowed.

:00:50. > :00:51.The Iraqi army claims the fightback has begun.

:00:52. > :00:53.But the country now faces a de facto partition.

:00:54. > :00:56.What should Britain, Europe, or the US be doing - if anything?

:00:57. > :00:59.It's been a big week in the Scottish referendum.

:01:00. > :01:03.But has the tone of the debate become too downright nasty?

:01:04. > :01:10.Both sides join us to go head to head.

:01:11. > :01:14.I will swap Ed Miliband for Tim Farren. What is the significance of

:01:15. > :01:16.that? Coming up: As police promised a

:01:17. > :01:26.even Westminster, we'll be asking Coming up: As police promised a

:01:27. > :01:28.crackdown on lawyers flags hn one crackdown on lawyers flags in one

:01:29. > :01:31.area... In London, why the minority vote one

:01:32. > :01:33.recent elections Labour, but recent support amongst people is bigger

:01:34. > :01:44.than assumed. The Sunni Islamist army known

:01:45. > :01:47.as ISIS is now in control of huge swathes of northern

:01:48. > :01:49.and western Iraq, including Until the weekend they looked

:01:50. > :01:52.like advancing relentlessly on Baghdad but that offensive has

:01:53. > :01:55.now been slowed or even halted The Iraqi army

:01:56. > :01:59.and its Shia milita allies vow that Baghdad will not be taken and that

:02:00. > :02:06.a counter-attack will soon begin. Iraq's Shia Prime Minister Nouri

:02:07. > :02:09.al-Maliki has to do something to reverse the humiliation

:02:10. > :02:11.of recent days, which saw his US-trained and equipped Iraqi

:02:12. > :02:16.army, which outnumbered the Islamists 15 to 1 melt away or

:02:17. > :02:20.surrender when confronted by ISIS. The conflict has already created a

:02:21. > :02:22.humanitarian crisis, with hundreds The Kurds have used the conflict to

:02:23. > :02:33.consolidate their hold on their autonomous area in the north, parts

:02:34. > :02:36.of the west and the north are in the grip of ISIS control and the Shias

:02:37. > :02:39.are hunkering down in the east. All of which makes a three-way

:02:40. > :02:42.partition a real possibility with The US is moving another

:02:43. > :02:46.of its massive aircraft carrier battlefleets to the Gulf,

:02:47. > :02:49.though the White House shows no While Iran says it's ready to help

:02:50. > :02:53.its Shia allies and there are unconfoirmed reports

:02:54. > :02:56.that its revolutionary guard has Well, I'm joined now by Newsnight's

:02:57. > :03:15.diplomatic editor Mark Urban. Let's start with some basics. Who

:03:16. > :03:22.are ISIS and why are they controlling big chunks of Iraq? ISIS

:03:23. > :03:26.is an extremist militant jihad organisation and they have a pure

:03:27. > :03:30.Islamic concept based on 14th century history and jurisprudence.

:03:31. > :03:36.What they want to do is correct -- create this caliphate that do not

:03:37. > :03:39.recognise colonial boundaries so it involves Syria and Iraq, and they

:03:40. > :03:42.could go down to Lebanon and Palestine, that is all fair game as

:03:43. > :03:48.far as they are concerned. And they have this strict interpretation of

:03:49. > :03:54.Islam. The more interesting question is why have semi-Sunni Muslims,

:03:55. > :03:58.along with them, these are precisely the sort of people who in 2006,

:03:59. > :04:03.2007, tribal leaders in the west of the country rose up against. It was

:04:04. > :04:07.called the Awakening and the Americans in power did and

:04:08. > :04:12.bankrolled it. These people turned against them and admired them in

:04:13. > :04:15.large numbers, so why do they have so many Sunni Muslims on their

:04:16. > :04:18.side? We hear about people going back to Mosul. I think the answer is

:04:19. > :04:22.a perception back to Mosul. I think the answer

:04:23. > :04:25.that the current government is ruling in sectarian interests, Shia

:04:26. > :04:28.Muslim interest, and the Sunni Muslims want self-determination and

:04:29. > :04:32.this is their best bet. Muslims want self-determination and

:04:33. > :04:36.this is their Let me put up this map to find out where we are going. We

:04:37. > :04:41.can see Mosul in the north, they took that, and then they started,

:04:42. > :04:49.South, reports that the crit was involved -- to grit -- to grit. What

:04:50. > :04:53.is the situation on the ground now? We are in what you might call a

:04:54. > :05:01.consolidation or strategic pause as American called it in 2003. ISIS are

:05:02. > :05:04.trying to consolidate their power in Mosul, and now they have this major

:05:05. > :05:09.city and they are trying to show they can run the city and get the

:05:10. > :05:13.power going, etc. Their southernmost forces, that is a gorilla army, guys

:05:14. > :05:18.in pick-up trucks. They cannot deal with serious opposition. They would

:05:19. > :05:21.like to get the tanks and other things into action but that could

:05:22. > :05:26.take weeks for them to be able to do it. The government side is that they

:05:27. > :05:30.have counter-attacked, but it will take a little while before these

:05:31. > :05:34.newly raised militia and other task forces, call them what you will, can

:05:35. > :05:40.forces, call them what you will can effectively counter-attacked. But

:05:41. > :05:43.that is what will happen in the next week or two. We will see

:05:44. > :05:52.increasingly large and serious government counter-attacked trying

:05:53. > :05:57.to retake those places, and I fear a really difficult, bloody Syrian

:05:58. > :06:04.style street by street battle for some of these urban centres. I would

:06:05. > :06:07.like to have a look at this map, because the Kurds, as I mentioned,

:06:08. > :06:11.they are consolidating their position in the autonomous region in

:06:12. > :06:16.the north. The Islamist are taking over huge chunks of the Sunni Muslim

:06:17. > :06:22.West. And of course the Shia Muslim are still dominant in control of

:06:23. > :06:26.Baghdad and in parts of the south and east. Back to me looks like the

:06:27. > :06:35.beginnings of the partition of Iraq. -- back to me. Well, it is, but we

:06:36. > :06:41.have to caveat it in a few ways. Firstly, there are millions of

:06:42. > :06:45.people in Iraq, so-called sushi, combined families, who do not fit

:06:46. > :06:51.easily into the pattern. Do we see millions of people becoming refugees

:06:52. > :06:54.under this scheme? There would be a lot of human tragedies if people

:06:55. > :06:59.really did try to enforce this type partition. Secondly, there are Sunni

:07:00. > :07:05.Muslim communities in the south of Baghdad, those places, once again, a

:07:06. > :07:15.lot of misery and fighting will occur if people try to enforce a de

:07:16. > :07:21.facto partition. There are still an awakening of forces. They are on the

:07:22. > :07:28.side of the government. We heard about one group in Samarra of Sunni

:07:29. > :07:32.Muslims fighting on the same side. It's a complex picture. They factor,

:07:33. > :07:36.it does look like a partition, and if it goes further in that direction

:07:37. > :07:41.it will. And partition will always be messy because people end up on

:07:42. > :07:47.the wrong side of the lies. Finally, the big thing on that map,

:07:48. > :07:52.Iran, a huge place, a huge border with Shia Muslim Iraq. Iran now

:07:53. > :07:55.becomes a key factor. It is becoming a proxy war for Iran. Yes, when I

:07:56. > :07:59.was in Baghdad a few months ago I was in Baghdad a few months ago, I

:08:00. > :08:03.did actually see Iranians revolutionary guards in uniform

:08:04. > :08:09.They were protecting a senior Iranians official, so some numbers

:08:10. > :08:14.have been never some time and they are also said to protect the

:08:15. > :08:18.political leaders and -- in his compound. They are there. We think

:08:19. > :08:21.more of them are trying to organise the defence of Baghdad to galvanise

:08:22. > :08:27.the Iraqi army, and they will not allow the Iraqi government to fall.

:08:28. > :08:31.Mark, thank you for marking archive this morning. -- marking our card.

:08:32. > :08:34.Tony Blair took Britain into the Iraq conflict in 2003.

:08:35. > :08:36.He's now, among other things, envoy to the Middle East representing

:08:37. > :08:39.That's the UN, the EU, the US and Russia.

:08:40. > :08:42.This morning he entered the debate about what should be

:08:43. > :08:51.My point is simple. If you left Saddam in place in 2003, when 2 11

:08:52. > :08:54.Saddam in place in 2003, when 2011 happened and you have the Arab

:08:55. > :09:01.revolutions going through Tunisia, Libya, Yemen, Bahrain and Egypt and

:09:02. > :09:05.Syria, you would still have had a major problem in Iraq. You can see

:09:06. > :09:09.what happens when you leave the dictator in place, as has happened

:09:10. > :09:13.with Bashar al-Assad. The problem doesn't go away. What I'm trying to

:09:14. > :09:16.say is, we can rerun the debates about 2003, and there are perfectly

:09:17. > :09:21.legitimate points on either side, but where we are in 2014, we have do

:09:22. > :09:23.understand that this is a regional problem, but a problem that will

:09:24. > :09:27.affect us. And I'm joined by the former Foreign

:09:28. > :09:29.Office minister Mark Malloch-Brown, Here in London are James Rubin,

:09:30. > :09:33.he was chief spokesman for the State Department under

:09:34. > :09:35.Bill Clinton, and Bayan Rahman, she represents the Kurdistan

:09:36. > :09:48.Regional government in the UK. Intervened in Iraq, it's a shambles,

:09:49. > :09:53.we don't intervene in Syria, it's a we don't intervene in Syria, it s a

:09:54. > :09:58.shambles. What lessons should we draw? That is a well framed

:09:59. > :10:02.question, because that is the problem. Tony Blair is half right.

:10:03. > :10:06.Iraq, like Syria, would probably have been a problem even without an

:10:07. > :10:12.intervention. But one wishes someone would tell him to stay quiet during

:10:13. > :10:16.moments like this, because it does drive a great surge of people in the

:10:17. > :10:18.other direction. The fact is, what has been missing in western politics

:10:19. > :10:25.towards the Middle East throughout both episodes, Syria and Iraq, is a

:10:26. > :10:30.drive to build an inclusive, democratic centre which is secular

:10:31. > :10:33.and nonsectarian. That has been missing amongst the threats of

:10:34. > :10:38.invasion Manon invasion, we have just constantly neglected the

:10:39. > :10:44.diplomatic nation-building dimensional this. I want to come

:10:45. > :10:47.onto what is happening on the ground. I want to begin with what

:10:48. > :10:50.the Western response by me, and by that we mean the United States,

:10:51. > :10:55.because of it doesn't do anything, nobody will do anything. All of the

:10:56. > :10:58.signals I see coming out of the White is that Barack Obama has no

:10:59. > :11:03.appetite for intervention -- out of the White House. I don't think he

:11:04. > :11:09.does have an appetite. He would be very unlikely to do anything very

:11:10. > :11:14.large. He might feel pressured to act because of the fact that this

:11:15. > :11:19.particular group, this Al-Qaeda inspired group, fits into the

:11:20. > :11:23.strategy he has pursued in Yemen and Afghanistan and Pakistan, to use

:11:24. > :11:33.drone strikes against individual terrorists. So it is possible that

:11:34. > :11:38.the threat of ISIS in the region and the West in general might inspire

:11:39. > :11:43.him to act, but the idea he will do enough, militarily, to transform

:11:44. > :11:49.Iraq from its current state of civil War into something along the lines

:11:50. > :11:54.that Mark was talking about, nation-building diplomacy, a big

:11:55. > :11:59.operation, I don't see President Obama sees his historic mission as

:12:00. > :12:04.having got the United States as out of it. Leave it to the Pacific,

:12:05. > :12:09.perhaps. What would the Kurds like the West to do? First of all, in

:12:10. > :12:14.Kurdistan we face a huge humanitarian crisis. We already have

:12:15. > :12:16.had bought a quarter of a million Syrian refugees and we were

:12:17. > :12:22.struggling to cope with that. And now we have at least double that

:12:23. > :12:25.number of refugees coming from Mosul. First and foremost, we are

:12:26. > :12:30.calling on the international community to help us with that. So

:12:31. > :12:34.we need humanitarian aid? Let's assume we do that in some way, maybe

:12:35. > :12:39.not enough, but what else if anything? I think it is an incumbent

:12:40. > :12:45.on the west and other powers to assist Iraq to get rid of ISIS. I

:12:46. > :12:52.think the Sunni Arab community, some of whom have joined ISIS and may be

:12:53. > :12:59.supported the uprising, have justified complaints against the

:13:00. > :13:01.federal government. But we need the terrorists out of Iraq. That is

:13:02. > :13:06.first and foremost. And what the West can do is not necessarily

:13:07. > :13:09.intervene with boots on the ground, but provide technical assistance,

:13:10. > :13:14.provide intelligence and help the Iraqi army and air force to be more

:13:15. > :13:22.targeted. Can you defend yourselves? In Kurdistan, we can in terms of the

:13:23. > :13:26.disciplined troops. In this situation, I hope they won't be

:13:27. > :13:30.abandoning their post, that is for sure. It is a national cause fires.

:13:31. > :13:36.But we are not armed in the way that the Iraqi army is -- cause for us.

:13:37. > :13:40.We are not armed in the way that ISIS seems to be now they have

:13:41. > :13:44.seized some of the American kit. We are not asking for weapons, but we

:13:45. > :13:48.ask for assistance for all of Iraq to deal with the situation. Mark,

:13:49. > :13:54.this is not just an Iraqi problem. This is a regional conflict, and

:13:55. > :13:58.from the Levant on the shores of the Mediterranean, all the way through

:13:59. > :14:04.to the Gulf, the region is gripped with what is essentially a Sunni and

:14:05. > :14:07.Shia Muslim sectarian war. Yes, with the caveats that Mark bourbon made

:14:08. > :14:11.earlier, it's not quite that straightforward, but the basic

:14:12. > :14:16.divide is exactly that -- Mark Urban. People have been looking for

:14:17. > :14:20.this to begin in Lebanon or Jordan and have been taken by surprise

:14:21. > :14:26.although with hindsight I'm not sure why, that it has begun in Iraq

:14:27. > :14:29.instead. At its most extreme, it risks redrawing the 20th century

:14:30. > :14:33.boundaries of the region in a way which would be highly unstable

:14:34. > :14:38.because it would pit a Shia Muslim bloc against the Sunni Muslim bloc

:14:39. > :14:44.and would undo all of the sort of social and economic advance of the

:14:45. > :14:48.last century, so the stakes are suddenly very, very high indeed Are

:14:49. > :14:55.we seeing the redrawing? The lines were drawn secretly, not far from

:14:56. > :14:58.here, about a mile away, and may have survived through thick and

:14:59. > :15:03.thin. They now look pretty fragile. The map is being redrawn. I think it

:15:04. > :15:10.is true that there is a key factor partition going on -- des facto.

:15:11. > :15:18.Woodrow Wilson probably gave a bit of a hand to the promotion of the

:15:19. > :15:21.idea of self-determination, and in a way, there is a self determination

:15:22. > :15:24.going on, particularly in the Kurdish region, and perhaps they may

:15:25. > :15:30.end up the big winners in all of this, because they have proceeded

:15:31. > :15:33.with a relatively moderate, reconcilable government. The key

:15:34. > :15:44.thing that the Kurdish region has done. They used to fight the two

:15:45. > :15:48.groups, and now they fight together. What the Sunni Muslims have not done

:15:49. > :15:56.is figure out how to let politics let the side things instead of guns.

:15:57. > :16:03.We need to look clearly and in Syria and Iraq, if there is a Sunni

:16:04. > :16:09.extremist with ISIS that carves out a place for itself, it will be the

:16:10. > :16:14.great irony of the modern era. President Bush said he wanted to go

:16:15. > :16:21.into Iraq to fight terrorism. There was no terrorist. There are now. If

:16:22. > :16:27.in Iraq and Syria together thereat a thousand strong Al-Qaeda capability

:16:28. > :16:29.that threatens the region, the West, the world, we are all going to

:16:30. > :16:58.have to do something about it. The danger is that power will

:16:59. > :17:02.spread. This could grow in power. You would not want it on your

:17:03. > :17:06.southern border. Absolutely, we would not. The point we are all

:17:07. > :17:11.making indirectly is that things have changed in Iraq and will never

:17:12. > :17:14.be the same again. Whether Iraq completely disintegrates into three

:17:15. > :17:16.countries, or whether it stays together as one country, but a

:17:17. > :17:19.countries, or whether it stays together as one country, but loose

:17:20. > :17:26.federation, either way, Iraq has changed. It will not go back to what

:17:27. > :17:30.it was. I hope it will change for the better. I think we're at the

:17:31. > :17:37.make or break point for Iraq. Either the political readers -- the

:17:38. > :17:41.political leaders of a right wake up and smell the coffee and put aside

:17:42. > :17:46.their differences or there will be problems. This provides that

:17:47. > :17:53.opportunity, in a very nasty way. If we take it? Yes, and if not, I think

:17:54. > :18:02.this is the end of a rack as we know it. If anything resembling a

:18:03. > :18:06.caliphate emerges, that is very destabilising for the region itself.

:18:07. > :18:11.More so I would suggest than even the Taliban and Al-Qaeda in

:18:12. > :18:18.Afghanistan. At some stage, you have to assume that they will be coming

:18:19. > :18:28.for us. That is correct. This is extremely dangerous. The only way

:18:29. > :18:32.forward is for these political groups to talk to each other and

:18:33. > :18:37.find a compromise that allows the rates of cinemas and minorities in

:18:38. > :18:39.Iraq to be protected within or the rates of cinemas and minorities in

:18:40. > :18:44.Iraq to be protected with an autonomous federal-state. Any

:18:45. > :18:47.support for the government must be premised on that. There is no

:18:48. > :19:04.military solution for this which is in during -- there is no military

:19:05. > :19:08.solution for this. There must be serious political negotiation, not

:19:09. > :19:12.with ISIS, but with Sunni Muslim moderates, to form a more

:19:13. > :19:17.representative government. This is the last chance for Iraq. I think we

:19:18. > :19:20.are all saying that that is going to need to be some major western

:19:21. > :19:26.leadership to make some big decisions here for the future of the

:19:27. > :19:31.region. I am concerned that after Afghanistan and Iraq, my country is

:19:32. > :19:36.quite world-weary, quite world-weary. It does not seem to be

:19:37. > :19:40.giving leadership. Certainly we are not seeing that in Europe. I am

:19:41. > :19:44.deeply concerned that we are not going to take the leadership role

:19:45. > :19:50.that needs to be taken. These are big issues. When Britain and France

:19:51. > :19:54.carved up the Middle East, they were world powers, operating as global

:19:55. > :19:59.powers, and without that global leadership by somebody, this is just

:20:00. > :20:00.going to get worse and worse. I think we will leave it there, thank

:20:01. > :20:05.you very much. The danger is that power will

:20:06. > :20:10.spread. This could grow in power. It is just under 100 days until the

:20:11. > :20:14.referendum on Scottish independence. So, for once,

:20:15. > :20:15.it'll be a long hot-summer But the campaign isn't

:20:16. > :20:20.just getting heated. In places it's also

:20:21. > :20:22.down-right nasty. When Scotland's best-selling author

:20:23. > :20:24.announced she was giving the unionist cause a million pounds

:20:25. > :20:27.this week, she received Independence supporters online,

:20:28. > :20:35.so-called cybernats, called JK Rowling a traitor

:20:36. > :20:37.and much worse, using a variety of For its part, the Better Together

:20:38. > :20:41.campaign has been accused Even Gordon Brown seems to think so,

:20:42. > :20:45.and this week he criticised Conservative ministers

:20:46. > :20:46.for relying on "threats With the Edinburgh Festival

:20:47. > :20:52.approaching, reports suggest even comedians are now reluctant to

:20:53. > :20:54.engage in the subject because I'm joined by Blair Jenkins from

:20:55. > :21:01.Yes Scotland and Jackie Baillie They're both in our Glasgow studio,

:21:02. > :21:21.and they're going head to head. Blair Jenkins, let me come to you

:21:22. > :21:24.first. Why have you and the Better Together campaign and Alex Salmond

:21:25. > :21:29.not done more to slap down the cyber nationalists who are poisoning the

:21:30. > :21:34.debate? Good morning. I think both sides tried to stop the tiny number

:21:35. > :21:38.of people on both sides who are incapable of controlling

:21:39. > :21:43.themselves. We should not get this out of proportion. We are having a

:21:44. > :21:47.fantastic, decent and democratic debate. The people who probably

:21:48. > :21:51.total no more than 100 on both sides who post offensive material or not

:21:52. > :21:56.to be allowed to deflect from that fact. Of course there are nasty

:21:57. > :21:59.people on the Better Together side as well, but are you saying there

:22:00. > :22:06.are as many of those as the cyber nationalists? I have not done the

:22:07. > :22:11.Kent. Lots of people are certainly posting nasty in defensive things to

:22:12. > :22:16.people in the yes campaigners well. I imagine that people do what I do,

:22:17. > :22:23.and block them. You stop them from sending anything further. There is a

:22:24. > :22:26.democratic and in gauging progress going on throughout Scotland. It is

:22:27. > :22:30.characterised by good humour and good debate. We should not get out

:22:31. > :22:36.of proportion and the activities of the number of people. I want to get

:22:37. > :22:39.to Jackie Baillie. The debate is actually pretty good-humoured and

:22:40. > :22:44.you should be doing more about the nasties on your side as well? I

:22:45. > :22:49.think we have reached a new low this week. Despite many people engaging

:22:50. > :22:55.in the politics of the decision and the debate about that, whether we

:22:56. > :22:58.want to retain the best of both worlds are separate from the United

:22:59. > :23:06.Kingdom, what we have seen is the most abusive and vitriolic attack,

:23:07. > :23:11.particularly on women, JK Rowling and a Labour supporter who dared to

:23:12. > :23:16.support the no campaign. When you look at the number of people on

:23:17. > :23:20.social media, there are more from the yes campaign than the no site.

:23:21. > :23:29.We should all be condemning attacks, from whatever quarter they come.

:23:30. > :23:32.This seemed to be connected to the office of the First Minister. What

:23:33. > :23:38.is the evidence for that? There was an e-mail from one of the... I

:23:39. > :23:47.understand about that, but it did not use vile words. It did not, but

:23:48. > :23:51.it repeated the same mistake as on the website. We should be clear that

:23:52. > :23:57.we need to condemn these attacks, but it is not just the water works,

:23:58. > :24:01.it is taking action. There was an IpsosMORI poll this week which was

:24:02. > :24:06.varying testing. It showed the population as a whole, farmer people

:24:07. > :24:11.think that Yes Scotland is running an effective campaign as against

:24:12. > :24:19.Better Together. It is a undecided voters think this by a majority of

:24:20. > :24:23.four 21. Some people are worried about of the campaign. JK Rowling,

:24:24. > :24:30.Scotland's most successful author of all time. She gives ?1 million to

:24:31. > :24:34.the Better Together campaign. She then faces some of the most

:24:35. > :24:41.incredible abuse. I know what it is like because I have had some myself.

:24:42. > :24:47.Traitor, Quisling. I cannot use some of the words, it is Sunday morning.

:24:48. > :24:51.Why does Scottish Nationalists culture have such a revolting

:24:52. > :24:55.fringe? JK Rowling is entitled to our views and it is unacceptable if

:24:56. > :25:00.people say offensive things about her or anyone else who voices and

:25:01. > :25:03.opinion in this debate. Who are obese people? When you look at the

:25:04. > :25:07.accounts of some of the people who were posting these things about JK

:25:08. > :25:12.Rowling, they were using the same sort of language about film stars

:25:13. > :25:19.and football stars. This was just part of their language on Twitter.

:25:20. > :25:26.How often has Alex Salmond condemned the cyber nationalists? Very often.

:25:27. > :25:30.Everyone in the campaign hands. By common consent, Yes Scotland is

:25:31. > :25:31.running a thoroughly positive campaign, much more positive than

:25:32. > :25:35.Better Together. Jackie Baillie, campaign, much more positive than

:25:36. > :25:41.Better Together. Jackie Baillie it hardly helps matters when Alistair

:25:42. > :25:44.Darling, who runs your campaign compares Alex Salmond to Kim Jong Il

:25:45. > :25:49.and North Korea. That hardly elevates the debate? I think we need

:25:50. > :25:56.to elevate the debate. There are less than a hundred days to go. It

:25:57. > :26:03.is a massive decision. We need to elevate the debate beyond attacks. I

:26:04. > :26:08.think there is much more that Yes Scotland and the SNP can do. You

:26:09. > :26:15.have made that point. Why are you running a campaign based on fear?

:26:16. > :26:21.The codename of your campaign is even project fear. It is threats.

:26:22. > :26:26.You cannot have the pound, there will be no shipbuilding. You will be

:26:27. > :26:28.flooded by immigrants. Why are you so negative? I am not negative at

:26:29. > :26:33.all and neither is the campaign. The all and neither is the campaign The

:26:34. > :26:37.campaign has asked questions and I think it is legitimate to ask

:26:38. > :26:41.questions of the people proposing such a fundamental change. People

:26:42. > :26:46.care about the economy, their jobs, their families. What would happen to

:26:47. > :26:52.them if they leave the rest of the United Kingdom. I think it is

:26:53. > :26:56.legitimate to ask questions. I refuse to be asked of

:26:57. > :27:02.scaremongering. People deserve answers. The yes campaign is equally

:27:03. > :27:11.guilty of some of the most outrageous scaremongering. Maybe you

:27:12. > :27:15.are both scaremongering. Blair Jenkins, the First Minister said of

:27:16. > :27:21.the cyber nationalists, that they are just Daft folk, as if they were

:27:22. > :27:26.mischievous little children. It is worse than that. When you look at

:27:27. > :27:32.what they say, they are twisted, perhaps even evil minds. I would not

:27:33. > :27:36.disagree with his comments, but they are directed at just a small number

:27:37. > :27:41.of people. The story of this campaign is not the story of what

:27:42. > :27:45.people are saying on Twitter. Around Scotland, lots of people are getting

:27:46. > :27:52.engaged in debate to have been tuned out of the political process. Today,

:27:53. > :27:57.we have 47% support for the yes campaign. The movement in the

:27:58. > :28:03.campaign is towards yes. People know we have a better campaign, a vision

:28:04. > :28:08.for Scotland. The latest poll of polls does not show that. Both

:28:09. > :28:13.sides, you always take the opinion polls that show you in the best

:28:14. > :28:16.light. All politicians do that. Jackie Baillie, your campaign is not

:28:17. > :28:25.just negative, it is patronising. You make dubious claims that Scots

:28:26. > :28:32.would be ?1400 better off by staying in the union, and then you say that

:28:33. > :28:35.the kids use the money to scoff 280 hotdogs at the Edinburgh Festival.

:28:36. > :28:41.The fate of the nation is in your hands and that is the best you can

:28:42. > :28:47.do? I think you will find that the campaign is something that we are

:28:48. > :28:54.taking the message to people. Then why are you talking about hotdogs? I

:28:55. > :28:57.do not. The campaign did. We are taking a positive message to people

:28:58. > :29:02.across Scotland about the benefits of the United Kingdom. We believe we

:29:03. > :29:06.are stronger and more secure and more stable, being part of that

:29:07. > :29:11.family of nations that is the United Kingdom. At the same time, we have

:29:12. > :29:18.the strange and power over things like education and transport. I

:29:19. > :29:22.understand that. I am not doing the issues today, I am talking about the

:29:23. > :29:27.tone of the campaign. I have one very important question. Who would

:29:28. > :29:33.you supporting last night in the England-Italy match? I was not

:29:34. > :29:38.watching the game. I would be delighted to see England do well in

:29:39. > :29:43.this tournament. I have Argentina in the office sweepstake. I have to

:29:44. > :29:47.keep some attention on them, but I would be delighted to seeing Clint

:29:48. > :29:50.do well. That is because you think it will help your campaign. It will

:29:51. > :29:56.annoy the Scots. Jackie Baillie? I annoy the Scots. Jackie Baillie I

:29:57. > :30:02.was supporting England. I was also supporting Portugal.

:30:03. > :30:04.Now most of you probably missed last night's football match

:30:05. > :30:08.between England and Italy because you wanted to get an early night and

:30:09. > :30:12.England lost despite a plucky effort, I'm told.

:30:13. > :30:15.But even Westminster is in the grip of World Cup fever

:30:16. > :30:17.and with speculation about the fitness of each political

:30:18. > :30:24.party's team we sent Adam out to tackle some of the big players.

:30:25. > :30:26.Well, this is the closest I'll get to Rio.

:30:27. > :30:39.This year everybody seems to have gone a bit mad Belize, football

:30:40. > :30:46.stickers. Let's see who I will get. Oh, the suspense -- a bit mad for

:30:47. > :30:47.these. George Osborne? That is because we leapt on the bandwagon

:30:48. > :30:51.and made Alan political stickers. They're hotter than a Brazilian

:30:52. > :30:52.barbecue. And at Westminster they're

:30:53. > :31:01.turning into collector?s items. Sunday politics political stickers.

:31:02. > :31:06.We have one of you, Norman. Would you like it? Do you want to start

:31:07. > :31:07.collecting, Bob? Would you like a packet?

:31:08. > :31:14.collecting, Bob? Would you like a Thank you. No album, I'm afraid.

:31:15. > :31:17.collecting, Bob? Would you like a Thank you. No album, I've got

:31:18. > :31:26.Michael Gove, next to to Reza, and two of the Prime Minister. -- next

:31:27. > :31:27.to Theresa. I am sure Michael has Theresa in her stick around, and

:31:28. > :31:28.vice versa. These Tory ones are proving very

:31:29. > :31:30.popular since she fell out with him out how

:31:31. > :31:34.to handle extremism in schools. And there's been open speculation

:31:35. > :31:36.about him taking on him in Then there are rumours of a

:31:37. > :31:47.reshuffle of the whole Tory album. Do you think there will be any

:31:48. > :31:57.swapping in the Tory leadership soon? Who knows? David Cameron has

:31:58. > :31:58.also got to replace the EU commissioner, Cathy Ashton, who is

:31:59. > :31:59.standing down. Does he go with the favourite

:32:00. > :32:01.the former health secretary Or the grassroots choice,

:32:02. > :32:04.Martin Callanan, the Tories old Or does he rehabilitate

:32:05. > :32:22.Andrew Mitchell after Plebgate? Do you fancy being European

:32:23. > :32:23.Commissioner? I would rather be spending the money on the world's

:32:24. > :32:25.spending the money on the world s poor and spending it well. Glad to

:32:26. > :32:28.hear it. Happy collecting. Right, there must be some Labour

:32:29. > :32:36.stickers out there. You don't want to swap Ed Balls any

:32:37. > :32:39.of the others? Can't I keep them all? This is almost the perfect

:32:40. > :32:39.team. There have been grumblings

:32:40. > :32:43.about the fitness of the Shadow And Ed Miliband's got a kicking

:32:44. > :32:47.in Liverpool after posing I'm told grown men are meeting up

:32:48. > :32:58.in pubs for sticker swaps - With Danny Finkelstein -

:32:59. > :33:11.Tory peer and Times columnist, He would be the card I would not

:33:12. > :33:16.want to trade. Do people want to trade him in? I don't think anybody

:33:17. > :33:20.wants to trade him in at the moment. He is the best person to lead the

:33:21. > :33:23.Labour party and will lead us into the next election. There's been a

:33:24. > :33:27.lot about Michael Gove, and he's very combative. That's been a huge

:33:28. > :33:30.strength as an education Secretary, despite the fact it's brought in

:33:31. > :33:33.trouble. I would think the prime minister would tell him not to get

:33:34. > :33:39.himself into peripheral battles at the moment but stick to what has

:33:40. > :33:45.been successful. I haven't got Nick Clegg, but I got me. Controversy

:33:46. > :33:49.amongst collectors of Lib Dems. I need to give away me in return for

:33:50. > :33:53.Nick Clegg. That would be far better. There you are.

:33:54. > :33:56.Some local parties are holding meetings about his leadership,

:33:57. > :34:00.but at one in Cambridge this week they voted to stick with him.

:34:01. > :34:09.You have got a Euro Commissioner. Why don't I swap, I will swap Ed

:34:10. > :34:15.Miliband for Tim Farren. Can I do that? What is the significance of

:34:16. > :34:18.that? Very significant. Happy collecting.

:34:19. > :34:20.These beauties are popping up everywhere, but sadly they won't

:34:21. > :34:31.Adam is still doing the samba around Westminster as I speak.

:34:32. > :34:32.I'm joined by three journalists who've been

:34:33. > :34:34.furiously swapping stickers throughout the show, they certainly

:34:35. > :34:37.weren't allowed to stay up to watch the football, it's Nick Watt,

:34:38. > :34:46.We will talk about Labour after the break, and I want to concentrate on

:34:47. > :34:51.the Tories, but the moment, Nick, senior Tories are saying privately

:34:52. > :34:58.that they might win next May. They are beginning to dream the dream. So

:34:59. > :35:05.why are they doing all this jockeying? I think the jockeying for

:35:06. > :35:07.the leadership is about a year old. What stoped it up was when Theresa

:35:08. > :35:14.gave a speech to the conference and gave a speech to the conference, and

:35:15. > :35:17.people said she was doing it just in case, when things were not looking

:35:18. > :35:21.too good. She is not on manoeuvres. I think it was a policy row that

:35:22. > :35:25.drove the differences with Michael Gove. But Michael Gove is on

:35:26. > :35:28.manoeuvres, and he is trying to protect George Osborne from, he

:35:29. > :35:35.believes, a serious threat from Boris Johnson and possibly Theresa.

:35:36. > :35:39.It is quite self-indulgent when you are a couple of points behind, the

:35:40. > :35:48.economy is going your way, to be involved in this sort of stuff.

:35:49. > :35:54.Extraordinary. It shows the toxic disease that gnaws at the entrails

:35:55. > :35:57.of the Tory party, and Cameron is their great asset. He is more

:35:58. > :36:02.popular than the party, he bridges the gap is, and he has an

:36:03. > :36:06.extraordinary dissemble and some pretending to be this moderate while

:36:07. > :36:09.never the lens -- nevertheless leading the most far right wing

:36:10. > :36:13.government we have had since the war, and that has been a brilliant

:36:14. > :36:14.piece of political Charente and they would be crazy to get rid of it --

:36:15. > :36:17.political Charente. piece of political Charente and they

:36:18. > :36:23.would be crazy to get rid of it -- charades. Does this rumble on? I

:36:24. > :36:27.have an unfashionable view as there aren't half as many leadership plots

:36:28. > :36:31.taking place in Westminster as we assume, and the willingness to read

:36:32. > :36:34.strategic calculation into anything that takes place comes from people

:36:35. > :36:41.watching I Claudius or house of cards. That hasn't been off -- on

:36:42. > :36:47.for years. I needed a reference from your time. I needed something. Maybe

:36:48. > :36:51.brief encounter? It's a stylised view of how politics works, and so

:36:52. > :36:58.much more in life is about randomness and mistakes. Boris

:36:59. > :37:04.Johnson, Theresa May, Michael Gove as George Osborne's man on earth,

:37:05. > :37:06.they are positioning themselves -- Janan wrote an eloquent comment this

:37:07. > :37:13.week about this, but there are certain realities that. Michael Gove

:37:14. > :37:16.had that famous dinner with Rupert Murdoch a few weeks ago in which he

:37:17. > :37:21.said that you must not make Boris Johnson leader of the Conservative

:37:22. > :37:25.party, George Osborne is my man. Theresa May set out her credo two

:37:26. > :37:28.years ago and people on her team were saying that she was doing it

:37:29. > :37:33.just in case. People are out there and are thinking of the future, but

:37:34. > :37:37.I do think Janan is right. In the village, in the thick of it mindset,

:37:38. > :37:46.you can get a bit carried away and you can be a bit in the famous. That

:37:47. > :37:52.is before your era. He died. What did he mean by it. You can get a bit

:37:53. > :37:55.carried away by it. I will have words with you during the break

:37:56. > :37:58.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:59. > :38:00.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:38:01. > :38:25.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking about Ed Miliband's

:38:26. > :38:32.brigades Union about cuts which will affect jobs. Fire stations will be

:38:33. > :38:45.affected. We will get reaction later from our guests. Welcome. Ldt's

:38:46. > :38:48.start with the cost of commuting. from our guests. Welcome. Let's

:38:49. > :38:49.start with the cost of commuting. In the south east, if you travdl

:38:50. > :38:54.start with the cost of commtting. In the south east, if you travel to

:38:55. > :38:59.London by train, you could be pays the `` paying ?5,000 a year. With

:39:00. > :39:05.more people working at home, a part`time ticket can save you

:39:06. > :39:09.thousands of type `` pounds. Here is what commuters in Tunbridge Wells

:39:10. > :39:16.had to say. IWork part`time, so it would be cheaper to use the trade. I

:39:17. > :39:22.think it would be more balanced and fair. I'd don't always work here, so

:39:23. > :39:28.sometimes there are weeks when I've might not be using my ticket. If

:39:29. > :39:34.they can just pay for days that they go, I'm sure me people would want to

:39:35. > :39:41.travel by train. These savings had been put for part`time season`ticket

:39:42. > :39:45.around ?1700, ?2000 if you commute from Canterbury. You are often heard

:39:46. > :39:49.speaking up for commuters in the South East. Are you going to lobby

:39:50. > :39:54.for these part`time season tickets? It sounds like a good idea. A lot of

:39:55. > :39:59.people who don't travel by train will be surprised to hear that you

:40:00. > :40:02.can get a different type of membership, such as eight Jim.

:40:03. > :40:02.can get a different type of membership, such as eight Jhm. A lot

:40:03. > :40:09.membership, such as eight Jim. A lot of people like to move it down to

:40:10. > :40:13.the south for that quieter life but want to go into London and are not

:40:14. > :40:18.commuting every day, this would be welcome indeed. I would certainly

:40:19. > :40:19.encourage my colleagues at the Department for Transport to look at

:40:20. > :40:27.this very carefully. You ard an IT this very carefully. You ard an IT

:40:28. > :40:33.expert by trade. Would a part`time system be easier to operate? I was

:40:34. > :40:39.in that position myself, doing a few days a week to London. You need to

:40:40. > :40:43.go at least four days a week at the moment. We have an incredible

:40:44. > :40:45.workforce and we should be encouraging a more varied way of

:40:46. > :40:46.encouraging a more varied w`y of using public transport in the should

:40:47. > :40:49.have been done a long time `go. using public transport in the should

:40:50. > :40:50.have been done a long time ago. You have been done a long time `go. You

:40:51. > :40:55.think a season ticket would be better? What people should be having

:40:56. > :41:00.is, the rest of the country should be getting something like the oyster

:41:01. > :41:07.card, so there are more Fox ways of payment, rather than talking about a

:41:08. > :41:10.card with a bar code on it. `` flexible ways. But the oystdr card

:41:11. > :41:16.flexible ways. But the oyster card is susceptible to fraud. I wonder if

:41:17. > :41:26.that is a better system. It is slightly above my pay grade. I am

:41:27. > :41:29.not that familiar. More flexibility or innovation, more competition,

:41:30. > :41:36.that is what we are getting. It is an exciting time for the railways.

:41:37. > :41:38.Widely recognised that therd is an exciting time for the rahlways.

:41:39. > :41:40.Widely recognised that there is a Widely recognised that therd is a

:41:41. > :41:44.huge housing needed the South East. The government has responded by

:41:45. > :41:52.making it easier for developers to avoid the managed energy`efficient

:41:53. > :42:04.standards for homes. `` the most. But could the plans backfird?

:42:05. > :42:11.Pneumonia that will stand for decades to come. `` new homds. But

:42:12. > :42:15.decades to come. `` new homes. But are they clean and green? The

:42:16. > :42:18.government had promised all new homes should meet strict zero carbon

:42:19. > :42:24.environmental standards by 2016. environmental standards by 2016.

:42:25. > :42:29.Some of the most ambitious targets in the world. Now the coalition

:42:30. > :42:33.wants to act away from the pledge, allowing developers to build to a

:42:34. > :42:37.lower standard of energy efficiency, provided that they pay into

:42:38. > :42:39.environmental schemes which offsets the difference in carbon emissions.

:42:40. > :42:42.the difference in carbon emhssions. Small sites will be exempt from that

:42:43. > :42:51.aspect of the polity. `` policy You aspect of the polity. `` policy You

:42:52. > :42:53.stand to benefit from higher energy standards through lower energy

:42:54. > :42:56.bills, but it could be pervdrse in bills, but it could be pervdrse in

:42:57. > :43:02.terms of outcome for the government, because we could see less

:43:03. > :43:06.progressive builders making smaller developments to get a round of the

:43:07. > :43:07.regulation and that could ldad to slower housing delivery. This

:43:08. > :43:11.regulation and that could lead to slower housing delivery. Thhs is a

:43:12. > :43:14.sustainable home with minim`l heating bills. It is not completely

:43:15. > :43:20.heating bills. It is not colpletely zero carbon, but that is part of the

:43:21. > :43:25.government's problem. It is difficult to achieve and more

:43:26. > :43:29.expensive to build. But what does zero carbon mean? It starts with the

:43:30. > :43:35.fabric of the building. Airtight with thick, well insulated walls

:43:36. > :43:39.keeping in the heat. A systdm to supply controllable, fresh air.

:43:40. > :43:39.keeping in the heat. A system to supply controllable, fresh `ir. But

:43:40. > :43:42.a log burner with a back boiler to a log burner with a back boiler to

:43:43. > :43:45.heat the house. Triple glazhng to heat the house. Triple glazing to

:43:46. > :43:51.look at the warmth and a solar water heating system. The shell of the

:43:52. > :43:55.building cost around 10% more than an average home, but the grden

:43:56. > :44:00.developer to build it says that is nothing in the life span of a house.

:44:01. > :44:03.It is going to cost more money, but if someone's bills are negligible

:44:04. > :44:03.It is going to cost more money, but if someone's bills are neglhgible or

:44:04. > :44:09.if someone's bills are negligible or a 10th of what they were before

:44:10. > :44:13.surely it is the best investment. Should all new houses be billed to

:44:14. > :44:17.that standard? Absolutely. @sk anyone if they would like their

:44:18. > :44:21.bills to be easier, everyone will bills to be easier, everyone will

:44:22. > :44:26.say yes. If development is one of the greenest in the UK, with

:44:27. > :44:32.everything from rooftop allotments to solar panels. The 107 22

:44:33. > :44:41.apartments currently run `` 172 apartments currently running at ..

:44:42. > :44:45.The UK has been a leader in terms of talking about a zero carbon. In the

:44:46. > :44:51.way that policy has been proposed in the way we are delivering it, we are

:44:52. > :44:52.not leading. If you look at other countries, particularly Gerlany

:44:53. > :44:55.countries, particularly Germany, Sweden, Denmark, I think thdy

:44:56. > :44:55.countries, particularly Gerlany Sweden, Denmark, I think they are

:44:56. > :44:56.Sweden, Denmark, I think thdy are becoming the leaders, and we are

:44:57. > :45:00.fast going to see the US st`rting to fast going to see the US st`rting to

:45:01. > :45:05.create many more zero carbon developments. Official figures

:45:06. > :45:09.estimate that the South East will grow by 12% in the decade bdtween

:45:10. > :45:12.2011 and 2021, creating demand grow by 12% in the decade between

:45:13. > :45:15.2011 and 2021, creating dem`nd for an extra 200,000 households. That is

:45:16. > :45:17.an average of 20,000 new homes an extra 200,000 households. That is

:45:18. > :45:20.an average of 20,000 new holes a year to stop the plan is to build

:45:21. > :45:21.100,000 homes in just six ydars 100,000 homes in just six years,

:45:22. > :45:28.from 2015. The speed of delhvery is from 2015. The speed of delivery is

:45:29. > :45:30.important for economic growth in the region, but so far, developdrs

:45:31. > :45:33.important for economic growth in the region, but so far, developers are

:45:34. > :45:39.not keeping pace. As demand for housing and house prices both

:45:40. > :45:41.increase, David Cameron says that he wants to stimulate the construction

:45:42. > :45:43.industry I'd get Britain building industry I'd get Britain building

:45:44. > :45:45.again. But some say the rel`xing again. But some say the rel`xing

:45:46. > :45:50.green targets come at a time when green targets come at a timd when

:45:51. > :45:55.fuel poverty a key national debates, makes little sense. It doesn't make

:45:56. > :46:00.sense that the government are pulling back on this policy. Aber

:46:01. > :46:06.introduced it in 2006 and they wanted to give ten years to give

:46:07. > :46:09.developers a chance to build zero carbon homes. `` labour. It was a

:46:10. > :46:14.long`term way to tackle fuel poverty. What we can do is control

:46:15. > :46:15.the energy efficiency of homes, poverty. What we can do is control

:46:16. > :46:19.the energy efficiency of holes, but the energy efficiency of holes, but

:46:20. > :46:23.we have to start doing it now. There is no question that the South East

:46:24. > :46:30.needs more homes, but there is a growing sense of unease amongst

:46:31. > :46:31.environmental groups about the claimant from the premise to that

:46:32. > :46:38.his government is the greendst ever. his government is the greendst ever.

:46:39. > :46:43.I was checking out quote. This worker the Prime Minister that his

:46:44. > :46:50.government. `` the Prime Minister that his government is the greatest

:46:51. > :46:55.ever. This is cut the green clap, isn't it? Let's be absolutely

:46:56. > :46:59.clear. We are implementing on the ground ambitious green policies,

:47:00. > :47:06.ground ambitious green policies mobilising ?3.8 billion in the last

:47:07. > :47:12.three years. We are talking about this decision about house`building.

:47:13. > :47:18.Even Cameron has said, cut the green stuff. `` David Cameron. Th`t is a

:47:19. > :47:26.misquote. That has been perpetuated by people misquoting. What this is

:47:27. > :47:30.about, it is about being sensible. You can be ideological and push up

:47:31. > :47:38.costs for hard`working families or you can be sensible and pragmatic

:47:39. > :47:40.and try to dry down the cost. The minister responsible for energy

:47:41. > :47:41.responsibility, and I know H'm minister responsible for endrgy

:47:42. > :47:43.responsibility, and I know I'm not responsibility, and I know H'm not

:47:44. > :47:48.going to get popular support for the green agenda and by taking

:47:49. > :47:54.ideological support that will push up the cost of housing. We have to

:47:55. > :47:55.bring down the cost of energy. We are talking about houses behng built

:47:56. > :47:59.to high energy standards. Less than to high energy standards. Less than

:48:00. > :48:01.10% of the houses in the sotth to high energy standards. Ldss than

:48:02. > :48:04.10% of the houses in the south east. 10% of the houses in the sotth east.

:48:05. > :48:06.You are talking about driving prices down. One man says he wonders around

:48:07. > :48:08.his home in a T`shirt in thd winter his home in a T`shirt in the winter

:48:09. > :48:11.with the heating off. As a linister with the heating off. As a linister

:48:12. > :48:13.for the Department of Energy and for the Department of Energx and

:48:14. > :48:16.Climate Change, don't you want more Climate Change, don't you w`nt more

:48:17. > :48:22.of that? Yes, and you will find that many of those houses cost a lot more

:48:23. > :48:26.and it depends on the indivhdual. We could see from the pictures, that

:48:27. > :48:29.was not the size of a normal home. Triple glazing costs more than other

:48:30. > :48:33.forms of glazing. What is happening forms of glazing. What is h`ppening

:48:34. > :48:35.is there are a lot of different types of developments. We're talking

:48:36. > :48:38.types of developments. We'rd talking about being a little pragmatic. The

:48:39. > :48:40.design became the minister hn about being a little pragmatic. The

:48:41. > :48:44.design became the minister hn 2 10, we brought down the price of solar

:48:45. > :48:46.by 70%. The number of people we brought down the price of solar

:48:47. > :48:51.by 70%. The number of people with solar panels on their roofs, it is

:48:52. > :49:01.now over 1 million people who sleep under a solar panel. , and the

:49:02. > :49:06.people are in the other initiative? The green deal. In the Southeast,

:49:07. > :49:09.the number of people who have a light green deal? I am talkhng

:49:10. > :49:09.the number of people who have a light green deal? I am talking about

:49:10. > :49:11.light green deal? I am talkhng about installations. You are talking about

:49:12. > :49:16.installations. You are talkhng about finance. I am talking about how many

:49:17. > :49:24.people who have put in green deal measures. Do not misquote old

:49:25. > :49:25.chestnuts. We are driving energy efficiency but we are proud that we

:49:26. > :49:30.are going to do that in a way that are going to do that in a way that

:49:31. > :49:33.does not drive up costs. For ordinary working families, it is

:49:34. > :49:43.part of a long`term economic plan and does not use housing as a

:49:44. > :49:49.plaything. Offering bigger developments the opportunitx to pay

:49:50. > :49:53.what amounts to a penalty... Level five is a step change. I am trying

:49:54. > :49:54.to ask you a question and you are trying to avoid talking about the

:49:55. > :49:56.trying to avoid talking abott the fact that you are giving them

:49:57. > :50:00.trying to avoid talking about the fact that you are giving thdm added

:50:01. > :50:06.chance to avoid doing it. Why do `` what is so clever about allowing...

:50:07. > :50:11.We are doing it because he want to have a little bit more flexhbility.

:50:12. > :50:13.You can be ideological and push up the cost of housing for people who

:50:14. > :50:18.are already struggling to get a are already struggling to gdt a

:50:19. > :50:23.mortgage to cover the cost of a new home. Great if you are a well`paid

:50:24. > :50:26.middle`class professional. Having an extra ?20,000 on the cost of your

:50:27. > :50:28.house doesn't matter, but there are a lot of people watching or whom

:50:29. > :50:32.cost of home ownership is just cost of home ownership is jtst

:50:33. > :50:37.within their grip, and we bring that down and be more sensible, not by

:50:38. > :50:40.throwing the baby out with the bath water or watering it down

:50:41. > :50:47.ridiculously, but by just being a little bit more pragmatic, that is a

:50:48. > :50:50.good thing. What he is saying is, his government wants houses that are

:50:51. > :50:53.unaffordable to heat and maintain unaffordable to heat and mahntain

:50:54. > :50:56.and for a few thousand pounds more you can make dramatic changds

:50:57. > :50:58.and for a few thousand pounds more you can make dramatic changes in

:50:59. > :51:00.those homes, and there is a policy that would exceed the national

:51:01. > :51:03.standards, and inspectors h`ve said standards, and inspectors have said

:51:04. > :51:07.we have to go to the lowest common denominator and delete the policy.

:51:08. > :51:09.They could have been 10 million solar panels if you have not messed

:51:10. > :51:10.around with the tariff so m`ny around with the tariff so many

:51:11. > :51:14.times. With regarding to bux a times. With regarding to buy a

:51:15. > :51:18.warehouse. How much were yot times. With regarding to bux a

:51:19. > :51:18.warehouse. How much were you paying warehouse. How much were yot paying

:51:19. > :51:24.for them? We cannot proceed let's be for them? We cannot proceed let s be

:51:25. > :51:25.specific `` we cannot proceed. Let's specific `` we cannot procedd. Let's

:51:26. > :51:29.be specific. If the get `` if specific `` we cannot proceed. Let's

:51:30. > :51:34.be specific. If the get `` if this gets developed, and builders are

:51:35. > :51:41.building more quickly, it is a good thing, people need homes. Of course

:51:42. > :51:43.they do, but in Britain, developers want to exceed the standards because

:51:44. > :51:44.that is attractive to purch`sers want to exceed the standards because

:51:45. > :51:45.that is attractive to purchasers at that is attractive to purchasers at

:51:46. > :51:51.it reduces the total cost of ownership, and what the signals from

:51:52. > :51:59.government are, push a little bit and Roback. A complete and out. We

:52:00. > :52:07.were looking at the fact th`t this could be counterproductive. `` opt

:52:08. > :52:13.out. We haven't published the details. What is the smaller

:52:14. > :52:17.developments going to do? There could be a perverse disincentive

:52:18. > :52:19.here too big developments, they could have been piecemeal, and that

:52:20. > :52:21.could have been piecemeal, `nd that would have the opposite effect. I am

:52:22. > :52:27.would have the opposite effdct. I am trying to ask a question, that is my

:52:28. > :52:29.job. The bottom line is, we haven't published the details. The idea is

:52:30. > :52:33.published the details. The hdea is to be pragmatic, not ideological,

:52:34. > :52:39.but to make sure that we have more efficient homes, and the have zero

:52:40. > :52:42.carbon in a way that does not drive up the costs of homes for people

:52:43. > :52:42.carbon in a way that does not drive up the costs of homes for pdople who

:52:43. > :52:46.up the costs of homes for people who are already on a tight budgdt.

:52:47. > :52:50.up the costs of homes for pdople who are already on a tight budget. Final

:52:51. > :52:51.question on the subject. Level for energy efficiency is still ` massive

:52:52. > :52:56.improvement. Why is it not enough? improvement. Why is it not dnough?

:52:57. > :52:57.We know that other countries can deliver level five and above

:52:58. > :52:57.We know that other countries can deliver level five and abovd without

:52:58. > :53:01.additional costs, and in the deliver level five and above without

:53:02. > :53:04.additional costs, and in thd car additional costs, and in thd car

:53:05. > :53:07.industry, ambitious targets force the manufacturers to change their

:53:08. > :53:11.behaviour, and I've think house builders in this country to do with

:53:12. > :53:12.some of that push from government, and not these mixed messages from

:53:13. > :53:16.the government. I have spokdn to the government. I have spokdn to

:53:17. > :53:19.suppliers and technologies and the government. I have spoken to

:53:20. > :53:23.suppliers and technologies and we are seeing a huge transform`tion.

:53:24. > :53:23.suppliers and technologies `nd we are seeing a huge transformation. We

:53:24. > :53:24.are seeing a huge transform`tion. We are splitting hairs and trying to

:53:25. > :53:29.are splitting hairs and tryhng to pretend... We should stay ambitious.

:53:30. > :53:32.I am going to be ambitious `nd try I am going to be ambitious and try

:53:33. > :53:35.to move us off the subject. The decision has been made about where

:53:36. > :53:39.cuts to the Sussex where service will follow. If the jobs will go and

:53:40. > :53:40.a fire engine will be removed will follow. If the jobs will go and

:53:41. > :53:47.a fire engine will be removed from Britain. `` 50 jobs. It is `ll

:53:48. > :53:47.a fire engine will be removdd from Britain. `` 50 jobs. It is all part

:53:48. > :53:49.Britain. `` 50 jobs. It is `ll part of a cost`saving process in which

:53:50. > :53:53.the Fire Service has to save the Fire Service has to save

:53:54. > :53:56.millions of pounds. The fird authority which made the decision

:53:57. > :54:02.says they carefully dropped plans that maintain response standards.

:54:03. > :54:07.The public is safe, that is good news, isn't it? It is not, because

:54:08. > :54:12.the plans are dishonest and do not give the public the truth. The plans

:54:13. > :54:16.will increase response times. In Britain, the cutting of a pump will

:54:17. > :54:20.Britain, the cutting of a ptmp will make it impossible for the Fire

:54:21. > :54:24.Service to deal with one high`rise incident. The chief officer has said

:54:25. > :54:32.he will be able to deal with two simultaneous incidents in Britain.

:54:33. > :54:38.We cannot see high `` how. What is the worst`case scenario herd? Fire

:54:39. > :54:39.the worst`case scenario here? Fire has reduced. The number of hncidents

:54:40. > :54:43.has reduced. The number of incidents has dropped in the number of traffic

:54:44. > :54:47.accidents have dropped, and that is good news, but if you have ` fire,

:54:48. > :54:48.good news, but if you have a fire, you are more likely to get hnjured

:54:49. > :54:53.you are more likely to get injured and you are likely to suffer a

:54:54. > :54:58.fatality, businesses are more likely to go out of business. Say you are

:54:59. > :55:02.saving lives will be lost. That is quite an irresponsible mess`ge.

:55:03. > :55:08.According to a review from the Fire Service, savings can and should be

:55:09. > :55:18.made, that is the view of an insider. That review was a bit of a

:55:19. > :55:22.joke. They took together... It is a serious independent report. You are

:55:23. > :55:26.calling it a joke. The man who wrote that review was then played for a

:55:27. > :55:32.long time. The review looked at the 46 Fire Services and looked at the

:55:33. > :55:35.average cost of the lowest Fire Service and spread that out as an

:55:36. > :55:36.average of savings that havd Service and spread that out as an

:55:37. > :55:38.average of savings that have been average of savings that have been

:55:39. > :55:47.made across the board. What about East Sussex? Call`outs down 36%. It

:55:48. > :55:52.is not unreasonable to cut further then, is it? You have to have the

:55:53. > :55:56.insurance service of making sure you have an effective response, not just

:55:57. > :55:59.for fires, but for red traffic accidents at all the other

:56:00. > :56:09.environmental risks that ard there. This worker road traffic `` road

:56:10. > :56:18.traffic stop `` road traffic. Are you concerned about the loss? Yes. A

:56:19. > :56:20.significant number of firefhghters did vote against it. I understand

:56:21. > :56:22.the Authority are in a diffhcult the Authority are in a diffhcult

:56:23. > :56:24.position because the government the Authority are in a difficult

:56:25. > :56:25.position because the governlent is putting the bulk of the cut to

:56:26. > :56:30.budgets and local councils and fire budgets and local councils `nd fire

:56:31. > :56:40.authorities, 43% reductions, far above the cuts of any department. I

:56:41. > :56:42.don't want Brighton to see this loss, but we have to recognhse

:56:43. > :56:42.don't want Brighton to see this loss, but we have to recognise where

:56:43. > :56:44.loss, but we have to recognhse where the blame lies, it is the government

:56:45. > :56:47.doing the cutting. By contr`st, good doing the cutting. By contrast, good

:56:48. > :56:52.news, but your governments hs the news, but your governments hs the

:56:53. > :56:56.reason that he could not raise his reason that he could not rahse his

:56:57. > :57:01.council tax, which we know he wanted to do, which would have helped him

:57:02. > :57:05.keep his fire engine. You are all right, Jack. We have had thhs

:57:06. > :57:06.problem because of the deficit that was run up by Gordon Brown and

:57:07. > :57:06.problem because of the deficit that was run up by Gordon Brown `nd that

:57:07. > :57:14.was run up by Gordon Brown and that we are still dealing with. @re we

:57:15. > :57:24.bored of this? I think we are! How long have you been in government? To

:57:25. > :57:27.be fair, the specific issue, it is a decision your governments took.

:57:28. > :57:34.Because people have had enotgh tax rises. We were elected by the people

:57:35. > :57:37.and we should be trusted by our residents. All a referendum if you

:57:38. > :57:45.want to put up your Council tax. `` want to put up your Council tax. ``

:57:46. > :57:48.call. There is a debt that will be with us through the next decade or

:57:49. > :57:52.more, such as the huge debt we are struggling with, and it means we're

:57:53. > :57:58.going to have to make cuts to public spending. There is no way around it.

:57:59. > :58:01.Hang on a second. Let talk `bout necessity. You are the one who

:58:02. > :58:04.famously told a group of Americans famously told a group of Amdricans

:58:05. > :58:06.that the conservative government would make cuts that Margaret

:58:07. > :58:08.would make cuts that Margardt Thatcher could only have dreamt of.

:58:09. > :58:11.Thatcher could only have drdamt of. Did that include cuts to the Fire

:58:12. > :58:13.Did that include cuts to thd Fire Service? I said we were having to

:58:14. > :58:15.Service? I said we were havhng to make cuts as a result of the

:58:16. > :58:20.make cuts as a result of thd deficits. That is a direct quote.

:58:21. > :58:22.make cuts as a result of the deficits. That is a direct puote. He

:58:23. > :58:24.did not say to them that it was cuts on the Margaret `` Margaret Thatcher

:58:25. > :58:25.would have only dreamt of? I on the Margaret `` Margaret Thatcher

:58:26. > :58:29.would have only dreamt of? H did say would have only dreamt of? H did say

:58:30. > :58:34.that. It is a result of the deficit and debt that we inherited from the

:58:35. > :58:39.Labour government. Cuts that are much greater than Margaret Thatcher.

:58:40. > :58:46.What we have had to inherit his catastrophic by comparison. Your

:58:47. > :58:54.message is about standing up for the little guy and who cannot afford

:58:55. > :59:00.fire engines... There are choices. They could be cuts to Trident, which

:59:01. > :59:05.has no impact on the benefit of life for people in this country, but they

:59:06. > :59:06.are choosing to put the cuts and to rescue authorities to have ` job to

:59:07. > :59:12.rescue authorities to have a job to protect the lives. We have to take a

:59:13. > :59:18.look at the other political Evans and there are plenty. Here they are

:59:19. > :59:26.in 60 seconds. `` Evans will stop `` Evans. A lack of staff could mean

:59:27. > :59:30.more violence at Maidstone prison, says an independent report, after

:59:31. > :59:32.serious disturbance at the jail last November. The government cl`ims

:59:33. > :59:37.staffing levels are appropriate but staffing levels are approprhate but

:59:38. > :59:38.the prison officers Association disagrees. We do not feel we

:59:39. > :59:39.the prison officers Association disagrees. We do not feel wd have

:59:40. > :59:40.got the right supports to be disagrees. We do not feel we have

:59:41. > :59:40.got the right supports to bd able disagrees. We do not feel wd have

:59:41. > :59:40.got the right supports to be able to got the right supports to bd able to

:59:41. > :59:44.do our job. Nigel Farage could got the right supports to be able to

:59:45. > :59:49.do our job. Nigel Farage could be facing a fine because he had to

:59:50. > :59:54.declare the rights to use this office. I have not declared expenses

:59:55. > :00:02.for this office. Surrey County Council was challenged the Commons

:00:03. > :00:06.Council because `` in the Commons because... They said that they had

:00:07. > :00:12.not risen since 2010. Footb`ll fever. A council will play the

:00:13. > :00:16.every hour until England exit the every hour until England exit the

:00:17. > :00:24.World Cup. Residents do not think it will guarantee me license. Why not

:00:25. > :00:29.try it every ten minutes? `` new lessons. Time for a quick thought.

:00:30. > :00:35.How much should chief executives of councils are in? More than the Prime

:00:36. > :00:39.Minister? I do not think so, but I have to say there there is a

:00:40. > :00:41.Minister? I do not think so, but I have to say there there is ` case

:00:42. > :00:49.for performance related pay. I don't believe in performance related pay.

:00:50. > :00:53.But there has to be a balance. The Council leader is on significant way

:00:54. > :00:59.(your allowance, and that is not the Chief Executive. My allowance of

:01:00. > :01:02.?39,000. Thank you very much. Ray to have you both with us. That is it

:01:03. > :01:13.from the south east `` great to have There are big changes afoot

:01:14. > :01:15.in the EU following last month's European elections,

:01:16. > :01:18.not least who'll get the top job But

:01:19. > :01:21.behind the scenes the parties have also been jockeying for position as

:01:22. > :01:25.they try to form the big groups that And UKIP seems to have been

:01:26. > :01:29.struggling to keep its influence Here's Adam to explain

:01:30. > :01:41.how it all works. If you want your party to be a big

:01:42. > :01:46.cheese in the European Parliament, you need to form a political group.

:01:47. > :01:50.By doing this, the party gets more money, more positions on committees

:01:51. > :01:56.and even more speaking rights in the chamber. But the parliament's rules

:01:57. > :02:01.are strict. And to form a group you need a group of 25 MPs from at least

:02:02. > :02:05.seven different countries. For UKIP, the number of MEPs will not be a

:02:06. > :02:10.problem because they already have 24 of their own, but the different

:02:11. > :02:14.nationalities are more of a challenge. Nigel Farage was not

:02:15. > :02:18.helped by the Tories stealing - stealing his former Danish and

:02:19. > :02:27.Finnish allies, and the pen pinching his Italian charms. Nigel needs a

:02:28. > :02:30.new charm and fast. He has already signed up Lithuania's order and

:02:31. > :02:36.justice, a free citizen from Prague, and the Dutchman from the reformed

:02:37. > :02:43.political party. The big signing was the 17 members of the Italian Beppe

:02:44. > :02:46.Griego's 5-star movement, but it leaves UKIP short of two more

:02:47. > :02:51.international powers, and with the clock ticking, it looks like his

:02:52. > :02:54.hopes resting on the Swedish Democrats and the Polish new right

:02:55. > :03:01.Congress. They both make their decisions next week.

:03:02. > :03:07.What is the latest? UKIP have enough MEPs with their pals, but they need

:03:08. > :03:12.seven countries, as I understand it. They are not there yet. They are

:03:13. > :03:15.wrapped five countries and need another two. UKIP are being quite

:03:16. > :03:20.buoyant and say they will be meeting MEPs from five countries next week

:03:21. > :03:24.and are pretty confident they will get those countries, but as Adam was

:03:25. > :03:33.saying, the problem UKIP have had is that the Conservatives have nicked

:03:34. > :03:36.two of the parties. That is why they have been struggling, but they say

:03:37. > :03:40.they are confident they will do it. Meanwhile, the Tories new best

:03:41. > :03:45.friends are the German Eurosceptic party, which has put Mrs Merkel s

:03:46. > :03:48.party, which has put Mrs Merkel's nose out of joint, but we don't

:03:49. > :03:55.quite know whether she really cares or not. I think Cameron has played

:03:56. > :04:03.his hand badly since he committed to pulling out of the EBP. And he

:04:04. > :04:09.should be in there with Angela Merkel and if he needs to make a

:04:10. > :04:15.major renegotiation, he needs to have the Germans onside. Instead

:04:16. > :04:19.there is a breakaway party and its like supporting UKIP. His party are

:04:20. > :04:24.supporting her worst enemy. It certainly causing him a lot of

:04:25. > :04:28.problems, and undermines his negotiating position, but isn't

:04:29. > :04:33.there an honesty that the centre-right group is explicitly

:04:34. > :04:37.Federalist, and the Tories are anything but, so they came out, and

:04:38. > :04:43.Labour are in the Socialist group, which is explicitly Federalist, and

:04:44. > :04:46.they are not Federalist either. If you want support and influence in

:04:47. > :04:51.Europe, you have to trade, and he hasn't done this well. The whole

:04:52. > :04:56.business with who will be the next president, he needs Angela Merkel's

:04:57. > :05:00.support. Without that, it won't happen. He should have been trading

:05:01. > :05:08.behind-the-scenes, but he has exposed himself in public, and if he

:05:09. > :05:11.doesn't win it looks uncertain, and he will be in a position where he

:05:12. > :05:15.has to go back to his own party and say they are not getting anywhere.

:05:16. > :05:22.That is dangerous and takes us closer to the Exeter, which I don't

:05:23. > :05:27.think would want. The danger for Mr Cameron is if it is the president of

:05:28. > :05:30.the commission, he will save you cannot stop a federalist becoming

:05:31. > :05:33.head of the European commission, what chance do you have of

:05:34. > :05:40.repatriating lots of powers back to London. There are lots of Tory MPs

:05:41. > :05:46.dying to make the argument. My hunch is that he won't make it. There are

:05:47. > :05:48.too many countries opposed to his presidency and even the country

:05:49. > :05:54.notionally in favour of it, Germany, is failing in youth -- enthusiasm.

:05:55. > :05:59.Angela Merkel cannot be seen to give in to the Brits this. Her own side

:06:00. > :06:08.once it as well, though some reason the German media says it. When she

:06:09. > :06:12.tried to reach out and said to look at the other candidates, she got

:06:13. > :06:18.such abuse on the right wing press from her own country and party she

:06:19. > :06:27.had to retreat. Janan is right that there is opposition to Juncker, but

:06:28. > :06:31.as long as Cameron turns it into an argument about Britain and Europe,

:06:32. > :06:39.he will strengthen the hand of Juncker. Angela Merkel thinks

:06:40. > :06:42.Juncker is inappropriate. She did not like the process, which was a

:06:43. > :06:45.power grab by the European Parliament, but when David Cameron

:06:46. > :06:50.went to the council and said that if I don't get my way, we could leave

:06:51. > :06:56.the EU, that led to the backlash, most significantly from the SPD in

:06:57. > :07:01.Germany. As Tony Blair says, if only David Cameron had made the argument

:07:02. > :07:03.that Juncker is bad for Europe, then he would have found his natural

:07:04. > :07:08.allies would have felt more comfortable following behind. Enough

:07:09. > :07:17.Europe. I want to show you a picture. See what you think of this.

:07:18. > :07:23.When I saw that picture, I thought it was so ludicrous that it had to

:07:24. > :07:26.have been photo shop. Discuss. He is holding it with a certain disdain,

:07:27. > :07:32.looking a bit hangdog. A disastrous picture for Ed Miliband. His

:07:33. > :07:37.strength is authenticity, sincerity and cleverness. And he blows all of

:07:38. > :07:42.that. He was the one who took on Murdoch, very bravely and

:07:43. > :07:47.dangerously, and one, really. Now there he is supporting Murdoch's

:07:48. > :07:50.son. It's a big mistake, not just in Liverpool, where obviously they are

:07:51. > :07:57.particularly incensed. And then he apologises. Sort of apologises and

:07:58. > :08:02.understands why Liverpool feels upset. But it is a fundamental error

:08:03. > :08:05.and I hope he learns from this, that he must absolutely stay true to

:08:06. > :08:12.himself. That's all he's got going for him. Who do we blame? His

:08:13. > :08:22.advisers or himself? In the end himself. Nobody forced him to do it.

:08:23. > :08:29.On this one, he called it wrong. It's a sign of the rather the bridal

:08:30. > :08:33.state of the Labour Party is that his candidates were vocal in

:08:34. > :08:40.attacking him doing this. It's a sign of how readable Ed Miliband is

:08:41. > :08:46.at Parliamentary level. I don't think you should have apologised.

:08:47. > :08:54.The mistake he made was associating himself with that newspaper. The

:08:55. > :08:59.mistake was the prior three years when he went too far as portraying

:09:00. > :09:02.the Murdoch empire beyond the pale. He made a case against phone hacking

:09:03. > :09:08.and offences in that regard without going as far as he did with the

:09:09. > :09:11.rhetoric. To do that, and then pose with the Sun newspaper, the

:09:12. > :09:17.juxtaposition is what did for him, not the mere fact of posing with it.

:09:18. > :09:19.Maybe he did not know what he was doing because we were told he

:09:20. > :09:23.doesn't read the British newspapers. It was football, and he

:09:24. > :09:30.has posed with the Sun newspaper before. Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg

:09:31. > :09:31.posed as well. But with the Sun newspaper and football, you tread

:09:32. > :09:33.carefully. That was the mistake. newspaper and football, you tread

:09:34. > :09:37.carefully. That was the mistake You get the impression from the picture

:09:38. > :09:40.that he looks so uncomfortable that you wonder whether there was a full

:09:41. > :09:44.process of consultation that went on within his media operation, within

:09:45. > :09:47.his political operation. Was he fully aware of what would happen

:09:48. > :09:51.question what he looks so incredibly uncomfortable. But at the end of the

:09:52. > :09:57.day, leaders have to take responsibility. It is cultural as

:09:58. > :10:00.well. That picture says, I am down there with the football blokes and

:10:01. > :10:04.you think, you are not. That is not what people will vote for. Be

:10:05. > :10:08.yourself and don't pretend to be something else because it never

:10:09. > :10:14.works. But the polls suggest that the British voters don't yet see Ed

:10:15. > :10:18.Miliband as prime ministerial. The worst thing you can then do is get

:10:19. > :10:22.involved in stunts that are more likely to reinforce that idea than

:10:23. > :10:26.counter it. There was a precedent for it in the last parliament which

:10:27. > :10:32.was Gordon Brown's attempts to feign a populist touch. He did it by

:10:33. > :10:39.telling the contents of his iPod. The Arctic monkeys. It always jarred

:10:40. > :10:40.because he was trying too hard. Not uniquely guilty of, Ed Miliband,

:10:41. > :10:40.because he was trying too hard. Not uniquely guilty of, Ed Miliband all

:10:41. > :10:45.uniquely guilty of, Ed Miliband, all the other leaders have done it. At

:10:46. > :10:49.the moment he more vulnerable. Yes, and he is less popular than his

:10:50. > :10:53.party. Labour has quite a popular brand, in a resilient way, in a way

:10:54. > :10:57.they don't with the Tories, yet their leader is a personal problem.

:10:58. > :11:04.The pressure is on him to do stunts like this. Will there be a shadow

:11:05. > :11:07.cabinet reshuffle? Yes, we have to get the cabinet reshuffle out of the

:11:08. > :11:10.way first, and that might come next week, maybe by the time of the

:11:11. > :11:13.summer recess, but the first thing that the prime Minister do is work

:11:14. > :11:21.out who is the UK candidate for the European Commissioner. Is it not the

:11:22. > :11:25.case probably that Ed Balls is becoming semi-detached from the Ed

:11:26. > :11:29.Miliband project? I don't think entirely. Nothing gets agreed

:11:30. > :11:32.without both of the end are green. Ed Balls is controversial. He has

:11:33. > :11:37.great pluses and minuses and is a big figure. Labour doesn't have that

:11:38. > :11:41.many big figures. It's quite hard to think who would be a heavy hitter as

:11:42. > :11:47.a possible Chancellor. He is a convincing chancellor to the future,

:11:48. > :11:52.Love him. He has the heft -- love him or hate him. Any possibility Ed

:11:53. > :11:57.Balls could be moved as shadow chancellor? The timing is convenient

:11:58. > :11:59.because the Scottish referendum ends in the autumn and Alistair Darling

:12:00. > :12:04.becomes a free man, win or lose I don't think Ed Balls will be removed

:12:05. > :12:07.because moving him would be an admission that everything the Labour

:12:08. > :12:11.Party said about the economy to the preceding four years has been a

:12:12. > :12:16.mistake. And you can't do that nine months before a general election.

:12:17. > :12:19.You invite ridicule. But relations between Ed Miliband and Ed Balls are

:12:20. > :12:22.not great at the moment. The Ed Miliband team are very, very

:12:23. > :12:26.suspicious of this new love in between Ed Balls and Peter

:12:27. > :12:30.Mandelson. Mandelson likes to say that he spotted the Ed Balls talents

:12:31. > :12:36.in the original place and appointed him to the Gordon Brown team after

:12:37. > :12:40.the disaster of 1992. But things obviously went awry, and now Ed

:12:41. > :12:45.Balls and Peter Mandelson Avenue Rappaport, and that is with enormous

:12:46. > :12:51.suspicion -- they have a new Rappaport. With good reason because

:12:52. > :12:53.it's about policy. It's about the attitude towards business. Should

:12:54. > :12:59.they be out there saying they will get the tax dodgers, Starbucks,

:13:00. > :13:03.Vodafone, are we going to take on business in a big way? In a way that

:13:04. > :13:06.Ed Miliband has quite bravely said. On the other hand, Ed Balls and

:13:07. > :13:11.Peter Mandelson are saying, hang on, we only won in 1997 by being

:13:12. > :13:13.business friendly. Sorry to rush you. We are running out of time

:13:14. > :13:17.The Daily Politics will be back every day this week at midday,

:13:18. > :13:20.and I'll be back here next Sunday when I'll be joined

:13:21. > :13:22.by the shadow work and pensions secretary Rachel Reeves.Remember

:13:23. > :13:54.if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:55. > :14:00.Magnificent. The power base of medieval England.

:14:01. > :14:06.Charles' ceiling was a piece of breathtaking arrogance.

:14:07. > :14:13.You get a sense of the people who made the palaces.

:14:14. > :14:17.as I unlock the secrets of Britain's great palaces.