:00:37. > :00:47.No surprise that Mr Cameron didn't get his way at the European summit.
:00:48. > :00:50.But does it mean Britain has just moved closer to the EU exit?
:00:51. > :00:53.Doctors want to ban smoking outright.
:00:54. > :00:56.A sensible health measure or the health lobby's secret plan all
:00:57. > :01:10.A green threat to our green and pleasant land?
:01:11. > :01:12.We'll look at the dramatic rise in the number
:01:13. > :01:30.And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political
:01:31. > :01:41.panel in the business Nick Watt Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.
:01:42. > :01:44.They've had their usual cognac, or Juncker as it's known in
:01:45. > :01:46.Luxembourg, for breakfast and will be tweeting under the influence
:01:47. > :01:48.He's a boozing, chain-smoking, millionaire bon viveur who's made
:01:49. > :01:51.it big in the world of European politic.
:01:52. > :01:54.I speak of Jean-Claude Juncker, the former Prime Minister of Luxembourg
:01:55. > :01:58.He'll soon be President of the European Commission,
:01:59. > :02:04.He wasn't David Cameron's choice of course.
:02:05. > :02:08.But those the PM thought were his allies deserted him and he ended up
:02:09. > :02:23.on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Fedrealist Juncker.
:02:24. > :02:26.-- on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Federalist
:02:27. > :02:28.So where does this leave Mr Cameron's hopes
:02:29. > :02:31.of major reform and repatriation of EU powers back to the UK?
:02:32. > :02:36.Let's speak to his Europe Minister David Lidington
:02:37. > :02:43.Welcome to the programme. The Prime Minister says that now with Mr
:02:44. > :02:46.Juncker at the helm, the battle to keep Britain in the EU has got
:02:47. > :02:51.harder. In what way has it got harder? For two reasons. The
:02:52. > :02:56.majority of the leaders have accepted the process that shifts
:02:57. > :03:01.power, it will not careful, from the elected heads of government right
:03:02. > :03:08.cross Europe to the party bosses, the faction leaders in the European
:03:09. > :03:17.Parliament and and the disaffection was made clear in many European
:03:18. > :03:20.countries. Mr Juncker had a distinguished period as head of
:03:21. > :03:23.Luxembourg, and was not a known reformer, but we have to judge on
:03:24. > :03:26.how he leads the commission and there were some elements in the
:03:27. > :03:32.mandate that the heads of government gave this week to the new incoming
:03:33. > :03:36.European Commission that I think are cautiously encouraging for us. The
:03:37. > :03:43.Prime Minister talked about those that not everybody wants to
:03:44. > :03:48.integrate and to the same extent and speed. Let me just interrupt you.
:03:49. > :03:53.What is new about saying that Europe can go closer to closer union at
:03:54. > :04:01.different speeds? That has always been the case. It's nothing new
:04:02. > :04:11.Indeed there are precedents, and they are good examples of the
:04:12. > :04:16.approach as part of the course and one of the elements that the Prime
:04:17. > :04:19.Minister is taking forward in the strategy is to get general
:04:20. > :04:25.acceptance that while we agree that most of the partners have agreed to
:04:26. > :04:28.the single currency will want to press forward with closer
:04:29. > :04:33.integration of their economic and tax policies, but not every country
:04:34. > :04:37.in the EU is going to want to do that. We have to see the pattern
:04:38. > :04:41.that has grown up enough to recognise there is a diverse EU with
:04:42. > :04:47.28 member states and more in the future. We won't all integrate the
:04:48. > :04:52.extent. It is a matter of a pattern that is differentiation and
:04:53. > :04:56.integration. I understand that. John Major used to call it variable
:04:57. > :05:00.geometry, and other phrases nobody used to understand, but the point is
:05:01. > :05:04.that you're back benches don't want any union at any speed, even in the
:05:05. > :05:09.slow lane. They want to go in the other direction. It depends which
:05:10. > :05:22.backbencher you talk to. There's a diverse range of views. I think that
:05:23. > :05:26.there is acceptance that the core of the Prime Minister's approaches to
:05:27. > :05:28.seek reform of the European Union, for renegotiation after the
:05:29. > :05:33.election, then put it to the British people to decide. It won't be the
:05:34. > :05:36.British government or ministers that take the final decision, it's the
:05:37. > :05:39.British people, provided they are a Conservative government, who will
:05:40. > :05:42.take the decision on the basis of the reforms that David Cameron
:05:43. > :05:47.secures whether they want to stay in or not. Is there more of a chance,
:05:48. > :05:52.not a certainty or probability, but at least more of a chance that with
:05:53. > :05:58.Mr Juncker in that position of Britain leaving the EU? I don't
:05:59. > :06:02.think we can say that at the moment. I think we can say that the task of
:06:03. > :06:10.reform looks harder than it did a couple of weeks ago. But we have do
:06:11. > :06:23.put Mr Juncker to the test. I do think he would want his commission
:06:24. > :06:28.to be marked and I think that there is, and I find this in numbers
:06:29. > :06:31.around Europe, and there is a growing recognition that things
:06:32. > :06:35.cannot go on as they have been. Europe, economically, is in danger
:06:36. > :06:39.of losing a lot of ground will stop millions of youngsters are out of
:06:40. > :06:42.work already that reform. There is real anxiety and a number of
:06:43. > :06:45.countries now about the extent to which opinion polls and election
:06:46. > :06:50.results are showing a shift of support to both left and right wing
:06:51. > :06:52.parties, sometimes outright neofascist movements, expressing
:06:53. > :07:00.real content and resentment at Howard in touch -- how out of touch
:07:01. > :07:04.decisions have become. You say you are sensing anxiety about the
:07:05. > :07:10.condition of Europe, so why did they choose Mr Juncker then? You would
:07:11. > :07:16.have to put that question to some of the heads of European government.
:07:17. > :07:19.Clearly there were a number for whom domestic politics played a big role
:07:20. > :07:28.in the eventual decision that they took. There were some who had signed
:07:29. > :07:31.up to the lead candidate process and felt they could not back away from
:07:32. > :07:36.that, whatever their private feelings might have been, but I
:07:37. > :07:39.think the PM was right to say that this was a matter of principle and
:07:40. > :07:44.it shouldn't just be left as a stitch up by the European Parliament
:07:45. > :07:50.to tell us what they do. He said, I can't agree to pretend to acquiesce.
:07:51. > :07:54.They have to make the opposition clear that go on with reform. Are
:07:55. > :08:01.the current terms of membership for us unacceptable? The current terms
:08:02. > :08:07.of the membership are very far from perfect. Are they unacceptable? The
:08:08. > :08:14.current terms are certainly not ones that I feel comfortable with. The
:08:15. > :08:19.Prime Minister described them as unacceptable. Do you think they are?
:08:20. > :08:24.We look at the views of the British people at the moment. If you look at
:08:25. > :08:27.the polling at the moment, the evidence is that people are split on
:08:28. > :08:37.whether they think membership is a good thing. I'm asking what you
:08:38. > :08:40.think. David Cameron wants to in -- endorse changes in our interest but
:08:41. > :08:45.also because the biggest market is going to suffer if they don't
:08:46. > :08:50.challenge -- grasp the challenge of political and economic reform.
:08:51. > :08:54.Newsnight, Friday night, Malcolm Rifkind the former Secretary of
:08:55. > :08:57.State said to me that even if the choice was to stay in on the
:08:58. > :09:01.existing terms, he would vote to stay in on the existing terms. He
:09:02. > :09:05.doesn't necessarily like them, but he would vote to stay in. That is
:09:06. > :09:08.the authentic voice of the Foreign Office, isn't it? That is the
:09:09. > :09:15.position of your department. Is it your position? Malcolm Rifkind is a
:09:16. > :09:21.distinguished and independent minded backbencher. He's not in government
:09:22. > :09:24.now. But that is your position. No, the position of the government and
:09:25. > :09:28.the Conservative Party in the government is that we believe that
:09:29. > :09:32.important changes, both economic and political reforms, are necessary and
:09:33. > :09:36.that they are attainable in our interest and those of Europe as a
:09:37. > :09:43.whole. Would you vote to stay in on the existing terms? That's not going
:09:44. > :09:48.to be a question that the referendum. Really? I know that in
:09:49. > :09:52.2017 Europe is going to look rather different to how it looks today For
:09:53. > :09:55.one thing our colleagues in the Eurozone will want and need to press
:09:56. > :10:00.ahead with closer integration. That, in our view, needs to be done
:10:01. > :10:05.in a way that fully respects the rights of those of us who remain
:10:06. > :10:09.outside. Variable geometry, tackling things like the abuse of freedom of
:10:10. > :10:13.migration. Those are all in the conclusions from the leader this
:10:14. > :10:17.week and we should welcome that Very briefly, finally, when will
:10:18. > :10:20.you, as a government, give us the negotiating position of the
:10:21. > :10:24.government? Will you give us what you hope to achieve before the
:10:25. > :10:30.election or not? David Cameron set out very clearly in his Bloomberg
:10:31. > :10:35.speech that he wanted a Europe that was more democratically accountable,
:10:36. > :10:39.more flexible, more at it -- economically competitive. That is
:10:40. > :10:42.all very general. When will you lay out the negotiating position? It's
:10:43. > :10:47.not general. It is very far from general. We have seen evidence in
:10:48. > :10:53.the successful cut of the European budget, the reform of fisheries
:10:54. > :10:57.those reforms have started to take effect. We have won some victories
:10:58. > :11:01.and I'm sure the Prime Minister as we get towards the general election,
:11:02. > :11:04.will want to make clear what the Conservative Party position is, and
:11:05. > :11:12.perhaps other political leaders will do the same for their party. Thank
:11:13. > :11:16.you for joining us this morning The harsh reality of this is that there
:11:17. > :11:20.is a yawning gap between what the Prime Minister can hope to bring
:11:21. > :11:24.back and what will satisfy his Conservative backbenchers. Yes, I
:11:25. > :11:29.think the Parliamentary Conservative Party is divided into three parts,
:11:30. > :11:32.those who would vote to leave the EU regardless, those who would stay
:11:33. > :11:35.regardless, and a huge middle ground of people who want to stay in on
:11:36. > :11:40.renegotiated terms. These are not three equal parts. Those who would
:11:41. > :11:44.vote to stay in regardless are smaller and smaller. Compared to 20
:11:45. > :11:49.years ago, tiny. But the people in the middle, generally, would only
:11:50. > :11:52.stay in if you secure a renegotiation that will not be
:11:53. > :11:59.re-secured. In other words, they are de facto, out by 2017 and the
:12:00. > :12:02.referendum. This whole saga of the recent weeks has been the single
:12:03. > :12:07.biggest economy in foreign policy under this government. That's not
:12:08. > :12:12.what the voters think. -- single biggest ignominy. I mean the failure
:12:13. > :12:16.to secure the target. The opinion polls show that standing up against
:12:17. > :12:20.Mr Juncker has proved rather popular. I suggest that is not Mr
:12:21. > :12:24.Cameron's problem. His problem is that, if in the end he gets only
:12:25. > :12:29.because Medic changes, and if he says he still thinks that with these
:12:30. > :12:33.changes -- cosmetic changes. And he says that they should stay in, that
:12:34. > :12:38.would split the Tory party wide open. Eurosceptics say would be the
:12:39. > :12:43.biggest split since the corn laws. He wants to protect the position of
:12:44. > :12:51.coming out, and you might get that. He wants to crack down on abuse of
:12:52. > :12:53.benefits, and he might get that He wants to restrict freedom of
:12:54. > :12:57.movement for future member states, and that's difficult, because it is
:12:58. > :13:01.a treaty change. And he wants to deal with closer union, but that is
:13:02. > :13:04.also treaty change. In the Council conclusions, David Cameron was
:13:05. > :13:09.encouraged because it said, let s look at closer union, but it did not
:13:10. > :13:13.say it would reform. All it said was ever closer union can be interpreted
:13:14. > :13:17.in different ways. In other words, we're not going to change it. The
:13:18. > :13:28.fundamental problem the David Cameron was that two years ago, when
:13:29. > :13:30.he vetoed the fiscal compact, that showed Angela Merkel was unwilling
:13:31. > :13:33.to help them and what happened in the last two weeks was that Angela
:13:34. > :13:35.Merkel was unable to help him. There is not a single leader of the
:13:36. > :13:39.European Union that once Juncker as president, and he doesn't want it,
:13:40. > :13:43.he wants the note take a job at the European Council. But there was this
:13:44. > :13:46.basic stitch up by the European Parliament that meant he was
:13:47. > :13:50.presented, and when Angela Merkel put the question over his head there
:13:51. > :13:55.was a huge backlash in Germany and she was unable to deliver. I
:13:56. > :13:58.understand that, but I'm looking forward to Mr Cameron's predicament.
:13:59. > :14:04.I don't know how he squares the circle. It seems inconceivable that
:14:05. > :14:09.he can bring back enough from Brussels to satisfy his
:14:10. > :14:13.backbenchers. No, you can't. Most of them fundamentally want out. They
:14:14. > :14:16.don't want to be persuaded by renegotiations. Where it's hard to
:14:17. > :14:20.draw conclusions from the polling is that if you ask people question that
:14:21. > :14:23.sounds like, do you like the fact that our Prime Minister has gone to
:14:24. > :14:27.Brussels and stuck it to the man, they say yes, but how many people
:14:28. > :14:32.will go to the voting booths and put their cross in the box based on
:14:33. > :14:39.Europe? We know mostly voters care about Europe as a proxy for
:14:40. > :14:42.immigration fears. In ten people in this country could not tell you who
:14:43. > :14:44.John Claude Juncker is Angela Weir is replacing. -- and who he is
:14:45. > :14:47.replacing. And I'm joined in the studio now by
:14:48. > :14:50.arch-Eurosceptic Conservative MEP, Daniel Hannan and from Strasbourg by
:14:51. > :15:11.staunch European and former Liberal war? His declared objectives would
:15:12. > :15:15.leave Britain still in the common agricultural policy, the common
:15:16. > :15:23.foreign policy, the European arrest warrant, so the negotiating aims
:15:24. > :15:25.which we just heard Nick setting out wouldn't fundamentally change
:15:26. > :15:34.anything. It would be easy for the Government to declare war on any of
:15:35. > :15:39.these things. The danger from your point of view as someone who wants
:15:40. > :15:44.to stay in is that if David Cameron only gets cosmetic changes, the
:15:45. > :15:48.chance of getting the vote to leave the European Union increases,
:15:49. > :15:56.doesn't it? Hypothetically it probably does but we have two big
:15:57. > :16:02.things to get through first in domestic politics before we even
:16:03. > :16:06.reach a negotiation. One is are we going to have the United Kingdom
:16:07. > :16:12.this time next year following the referendum in Scotland? Secondly,
:16:13. > :16:17.are the Conservatives after the general election next year going to
:16:18. > :16:22.be in a position to pursue a negotiation? In other words are they
:16:23. > :16:27.going to be a majority government or even a minority government? For the
:16:28. > :16:32.sake of this morning let's assume the answer to both is yes, the UK
:16:33. > :16:37.stays intact and against the polls they were saying this morning, David
:16:38. > :16:42.Cameron forms an overall majority after the election. There is a
:16:43. > :16:49.danger, if he doesn't bring much back, that people will vote yes
:16:50. > :16:53.correct? There is that danger and I see a lot of the British press
:16:54. > :16:58.comment this morning saying this could be a rerun of the Harold
:16:59. > :17:03.Wilson like negotiation of the 1970s, a bit cosmetic but enough to
:17:04. > :17:08.say we have got new terms and you should go with it. I think what is
:17:09. > :17:13.different however, and this is really an appeal if you like, it
:17:14. > :17:17.cannot just be left to the Liberal Democrats and coalition government
:17:18. > :17:23.to make this case on our Rome. A lot of interest groups across the land
:17:24. > :17:27.will have to start being prepared to put their head above the parapet on
:17:28. > :17:33.the fundamental - do you want Britain to remain in the European
:17:34. > :17:37.Union? Yes or no? Are you willing to put your public reputations on the
:17:38. > :17:41.line? We are not getting enough of that at the moment and it is getting
:17:42. > :17:53.dangerously close to closing time. Daniel Hannan, David Cameron will
:17:54. > :17:59.not get away with this, will he It will be an acceptable to his party.
:18:00. > :18:04.If it is an acceptable to Tory backbenchers it is because it is
:18:05. > :18:09.working and they are reflecting what their constituents say. A majority
:18:10. > :18:13.of people in the country are unhappy with the present terms. They can see
:18:14. > :18:19.there is a huge wide world beyond the oceans and we have confined
:18:20. > :18:23.ourselves to this small trade bloc. There is a huge debate to be had
:18:24. > :18:30.about whether we could be doing better outside. It is not danger, it
:18:31. > :18:33.is democracy, trusting people. If the only person offering a
:18:34. > :18:39.referendum at the moment is the Prime Minister, it has serious
:18:40. > :18:45.consequences for his party, your party, that's what I'm talking
:18:46. > :18:50.about. I am very proud of being part of the party that is trusting people
:18:51. > :18:56.to offer this. If he only gets cosmetic changes he cannot carry his
:18:57. > :19:01.party. But ultimately it will not be his party, it is the electorate as a
:19:02. > :19:05.whole that has to decide whether the changes are substantive. Everything
:19:06. > :19:10.we have been hearing just now is about staying out of future
:19:11. > :19:14.integration, protecting the role of the non-euro countries. People are
:19:15. > :19:20.upset about what is going on today with the EU. They can see laws being
:19:21. > :19:24.passed by people they cannot vote for, friendships overseas are
:19:25. > :19:28.prejudiced, and they conceive that the European Union has just put in
:19:29. > :19:33.charge in the top slot somebody who wants a United States of Europe into
:19:34. > :19:39.which we will eventually be dragged into as some kind of Providence
:19:40. > :19:49.Jean-Claude Juncker is a Federalist, you are Federalist, why did the Lib
:19:50. > :19:53.Dems oppose him? We shared the view that whilst you take account of what
:19:54. > :19:57.the members of the European Parliament say, ultimately the
:19:58. > :20:01.choice of the presidency in the commission should be the political
:20:02. > :20:06.leaders, the governmental leaders at a national level, and that's why we
:20:07. > :20:11.went down the route we did. It was more to do with the system than the
:20:12. > :20:16.individual. Although I would say that you need to bear in mind, I
:20:17. > :20:21.mean Daniel, I respect him personally and the integrity of his
:20:22. > :20:28.views, as I think he does mine, but to dismiss the European Union as a
:20:29. > :20:33.small trading block globally, when you have got the United States of
:20:34. > :20:43.America, China and other countries acknowledging its importance, it is
:20:44. > :20:55.really Walter Mitty land. Are we closer than... Daniel Hannan, are we
:20:56. > :21:01.closer to an exit after what happened last week? Yes, because the
:21:02. > :21:10.idea that we could get substantive reforms, gets a mythic and powers
:21:11. > :21:19.back and be within a looser, more flexible European Union has plainly
:21:20. > :21:23.been closed off. We have to face up to the actual European Union that
:21:24. > :21:29.has taken shape on our doorstep Are we going to be part of that or are
:21:30. > :21:33.we going to have a much more semidetached, looser relationship
:21:34. > :21:45.with it which we can either achieve via a unilateral system of power or
:21:46. > :21:49.another way. This debate is never-ending, it is going on and on
:21:50. > :21:53.and has bedevilled British prime ministers for as long as I can
:21:54. > :21:58.remember. Shouldn't the Lib Dems change their stance on the
:21:59. > :22:04.referendum yet again let's just have this in-out referendum and have it
:22:05. > :22:09.sided one way or another? Our position remains clear. If there is
:22:10. > :22:16.a constitutional issue put before us in terms of treaty changes then we
:22:17. > :22:26.will have a referendum. Why not now? I am probably the wrong person to
:22:27. > :22:31.ask because I argued and voted for a referendum on Maastricht because I
:22:32. > :22:35.thought that was a constitutional treaty. Anything that makes the
:22:36. > :22:42.Queen a citizen of the European Union surely has constitutional
:22:43. > :22:46.implications. Anyway, 20 years on we are where we are and we need to
:22:47. > :22:54.established common vocabulary. You talk about federalism. What do we
:22:55. > :22:57.mean? Most of the people operating in the European Parliament and the
:22:58. > :23:03.institution across the road, the Council of Europe, they mean by
:23:04. > :23:10.federalism decentralisation of powers, not a Brussels superstate
:23:11. > :23:13.but actually the kind of decentralisation that maintains
:23:14. > :23:23.national characteristics and pools resources and sovereignty where it
:23:24. > :23:26.makes sense. Mr Juncker, who is now going to be in charge of the
:23:27. > :23:37.Brussels commission, he believes in a single EU reform policy, an EU
:23:38. > :23:41.wide minimum wage and EU wide taxes. You said this week that you
:23:42. > :23:48.liked the sound of Juncker federalism. Does that sound good to
:23:49. > :23:51.you? No, and I think the new president of the commission will be
:23:52. > :23:57.disappointed if he puts forward these views because although we only
:23:58. > :24:02.had Hungary voting with us, I think if you go to other countries,
:24:03. > :24:09.France, Poland, Scandinavia, they are not going to buy that kind of
:24:10. > :24:14.menu. What they mean by federalism is the continental concept, also the
:24:15. > :24:22.North American concept, that we can sit very happily... They have an
:24:23. > :24:32.army, a federal police force, federal taxation. Yes, but in terms
:24:33. > :24:36.of the political institutions which is what we are discussing here, you
:24:37. > :24:40.can have the supranational, the European level, whilst still having
:24:41. > :24:45.the very vibrant national, and indeed as we are practising in the
:24:46. > :24:51.United Kingdom the subnational. A very brief final word from you,
:24:52. > :24:57.Daniel. That is ultimately going to be the choice. The European Union is
:24:58. > :25:02.an evolving dynamic, we can see the direction it is going in. Do we want
:25:03. > :25:06.to be part of that? I suspect Charles Kennedy would have loved a
:25:07. > :25:22.referendum. I cannot help but notice his party is going downhill since he
:25:23. > :25:27.was running it. It is illegal to light up in the workplace, pubs and
:25:28. > :25:30.restaurants. Now the British Medical Association has voted to outlaw
:25:31. > :25:36.everywhere but not everybody at once. It would apply to anyone born
:25:37. > :25:40.after the year 2000. In a moment we will debate the merits of those
:25:41. > :25:47.plans but first he is Adam. There was a time when to be British
:25:48. > :25:52.was to be a smoker. 1948 was the year off peak fag with 82% of men
:25:53. > :25:57.smoking mainly cigarettes but it was a pipe that Harold Wilson used as a
:25:58. > :26:01.political prop to help with the hard-hitting interviews they did in
:26:02. > :26:12.those days. The advertisements make out pipe smokers to be more virile,
:26:13. > :26:16.more fascinating men than anybody else. Do you thought -- have that
:26:17. > :26:27.thought anywhere in your mind? No. It changed in 2006 when smoking in
:26:28. > :26:31.enclosed places was banned. I would rather be inside but unfortunately
:26:32. > :26:37.we have got to do what this Government tells us to do. I think
:26:38. > :26:43.it is good, it is calm and you can breathe. Research suggests it has
:26:44. > :26:47.improved the health of bar workers no end and reduced childhood asthma.
:26:48. > :26:53.Now just one in five adults is a smoker. Coming next, crackdowns on
:26:54. > :26:58.those newfangled e-cigarettes, smoking in cars and possibly the
:26:59. > :27:05.introduction of plain packaging There is still those who take pride
:27:06. > :27:18.in smoking and see it as a war on freedom.
:27:19. > :27:21.We're joined now by Dr Vivienne Nathanson
:27:22. > :27:24.from the British Medical Association who voted for a graduated ban
:27:25. > :27:28.on smoking at their conference last week, and Simon Clark
:27:29. > :27:37.They're here to go head-to-head There are plenty of things which are
:27:38. > :27:47.bad for our health, why single out cigarettes? We need some sugar in
:27:48. > :27:51.our diets but the fact is that we need to stop people smoking as
:27:52. > :27:56.children because if we can do that, the likelihood that they will start
:27:57. > :28:01.smoking is very small. In no circumstances is smoking good for
:28:02. > :28:05.you. There are lots of smokers who live long, healthy lives but we
:28:06. > :28:10.totally accept smoking is a risk to your health and adults have to make
:28:11. > :28:15.that decision, just as you make the decision about drinking alcohol
:28:16. > :28:19.eating fatty foods and drinking sugary drinks. This proposal is
:28:20. > :28:24.totally impractical. It will create a huge black market in cigarettes
:28:25. > :28:27.which will get bigger every year. They say this is about stopping
:28:28. > :28:33.children smoking but there is already a law in place that stops
:28:34. > :28:39.shopkeepers from selling cigarettes to children. This target adults so
:28:40. > :28:44.you could have the bizarre situation in the year 3035 for example where a
:28:45. > :28:49.36-year-old can go into shops to buy cigarettes but if you are 35 you
:28:50. > :28:54.will be denied that, which is ludicrous. The point is that the
:28:55. > :28:57.younger you start smoking the more likely you will become heavily
:28:58. > :29:03.addicted. I take the point, but the point he is saying is that if this
:29:04. > :29:08.becomes law, down the road, if you go into shops to buy cigarettes you
:29:09. > :29:12.would have to take your birth certificate, wouldn't you? We have
:29:13. > :29:16.no idea how the legislation would be written but the key point is that if
:29:17. > :29:22.we can stop young people from starting to smoke, we will in 2
:29:23. > :29:27.years have a whole group of people who have never smoked so you won't
:29:28. > :29:31.have that problem of people who are smokers and they are now in their
:29:32. > :29:35.20s and 30s. Or you will have a lot of younger people who get cigarettes
:29:36. > :29:39.the way they currently get illegal drugs now. They are already getting
:29:40. > :29:45.cigarettes illegally and we have to deal with that. We have got to get
:29:46. > :29:55.better. The Government has not been able to stop it. We know this is
:29:56. > :30:00.going to kill 50%... When you are 15 you think you will live for ever.
:30:01. > :30:04.Indeed but they also do it as rebellion and because they see
:30:05. > :30:08.adults and it is remarkably easy to buy cigarettes. Whatever the case is
:30:09. > :30:13.for individual choice, won't most people agree that if you could stop
:30:14. > :30:16.young people smoking, so that through the rest of their lives they
:30:17. > :30:27.never smoked, that would be worth doing? You get 16 or 17-year-olds
:30:28. > :30:32.who already do that. Is it worth trying? When the government
:30:33. > :30:36.increased the age at which shopkeepers could sell from 16 to
:30:37. > :30:42.18, we supported it. We don't support a ban on proxy purchasing,
:30:43. > :30:45.we support reasonable measures, but this is unreasonable. This proposal
:30:46. > :30:51.says a lot about the BMA, because this week the BMA also passed a
:30:52. > :30:54.motion to ban the use of E cigarettes in public places. There
:30:55. > :30:58.is no evidence that they are dangerous to health, so why are they
:30:59. > :31:02.doing that? They are becoming a temperance society. This is not
:31:03. > :31:05.about public health, it's an old-fashioned temperance society and
:31:06. > :31:09.they have to get their act together because they are bringing the
:31:10. > :31:14.medical profession into disrepute. We were having argument is about
:31:15. > :31:19.things that people buy large accept, smoking in bars or public places,
:31:20. > :31:21.but the real aim of the BMA was the total banning of cigarettes
:31:22. > :31:27.altogether. This would suggest that that was true to claim that. It s
:31:28. > :31:32.not about a ban, it's about a move to a country where nobody wants to
:31:33. > :31:36.smoke and no one is a smoker. But it would be illegal to smoke. It would
:31:37. > :31:43.be illegal to buy, not smoke, and there's a difference between two. So
:31:44. > :31:46.even if I am born in the year 2 00, it would still be illegal to smoke,
:31:47. > :31:53.just illegal to buy the cigarettes? Indeed. The point being that the
:31:54. > :31:57.habit of smoking is very strongly linked to your ability to buy, so
:31:58. > :32:01.that is why things like Price and availability and marketing are so
:32:02. > :32:05.important. People will flood across the Channel with the cigarettes One
:32:06. > :32:08.thing you will find is that throughout the world people is
:32:09. > :32:13.looking at -- people are looking at the same kind of measures, and
:32:14. > :32:16.different countries like Australia, they were the first with a
:32:17. > :32:19.standardised packaging. Other countries will follow, because all
:32:20. > :32:25.of us are facing the fact that we can't afford to pay for the
:32:26. > :32:29.tragedy. There will be people waiting to flood the market with
:32:30. > :32:32.cigarettes. This is nonsense. Thanks for both coming and going
:32:33. > :32:36.head-to-head. "Unless we have more equal
:32:37. > :32:40.representation, our politics won't be half as good as it should be "
:32:41. > :32:42.So said David Cameron back in 2 09. So how's it going?
:32:43. > :32:44.Well, you can judge the quality of the politics for yourself,
:32:45. > :32:47.but we've been crunching the numbers to find out what
:32:48. > :32:48.parliament might look like after the next year's general election.
:32:49. > :32:55.Here's Giles. Politicians are elected to
:32:56. > :32:58.Parliament to represent their constituents, but the make-up of
:32:59. > :33:04.Parliament does not reflect society well at all the parties it. In 010
:33:05. > :33:08.more women and ethnic minority candidates entered Westminster but
:33:09. > :33:16.not significantly more inner chamber still dominated by white males.
:33:17. > :33:22.Looking at the current make-up of the Commons, Labour has 83 female
:33:23. > :33:29.MPs, the Conservative have 47 women MPs, which is just over 47% -- and
:33:30. > :33:33.the Lib Dems have 12% of the parties. All of the parties have
:33:34. > :33:36.selected parliaments in those seats where existing MPs are retiring and
:33:37. > :33:39.to fight seats at the next election, and they've all been
:33:40. > :33:44.trying to up the number of women and ethnic minorities because discounts
:33:45. > :33:49.and can be capitalised on. A picture tells a thousand words. Look at the
:33:50. > :33:54.all-male front bench before us. And he says he wants to represent the
:33:55. > :33:57.whole country. Despite the jibe the Labour Party know they have a long
:33:58. > :34:09.way to go on the issue of being representative. So we
:34:10. > :34:10.way to go on the issue of being look at this particular area of lack
:34:11. > :34:10.of women and ethnic minorities. Women first.
:34:11. > :34:42.In the most marginal, 40 have women candidates, that would mean if they
:34:43. > :34:48.got just enough to win power, they would have 133 women, which is 1%
:34:49. > :34:50.The Conservatives currently have 305 MPs and their strategy
:34:51. > :34:53.at the next election is to concentrate on their 40 most
:34:54. > :34:55.marginal seats, and the 40 seats most mathematically likely to turn
:34:56. > :34:59.In those 40, 29 candidates have been selected
:35:00. > :35:04.If they kept hold of their existing seats and won those 29 new ones
:35:05. > :35:08.they would have 56 women MPs, around 17%, and up 2% from last time.
:35:09. > :35:11.The Liberal Democrats are fighting to hold on to the 57 seats they won
:35:12. > :35:14.at the last election, if they manage that, they would have
:35:15. > :35:19.However all the indications are it could be
:35:20. > :35:23.a bad night for the Lib Dems, if they lost 20 seats, on a uniform
:35:24. > :35:28.swing it would leave them with just four women, 11% of the party.
:35:29. > :35:32.One Conservative peer who thinks the party needs to look at all
:35:33. > :35:35.options if it's female numbers go down in 2015, says Parliament is
:35:36. > :35:50.The bottom line is, if 50% of our population is not being looked at
:35:51. > :35:57.evenly, are we really using the best of our talent? And yes, women's life
:35:58. > :36:00.experiences are different. They are not superior, they are not inferior.
:36:01. > :36:02.They are different. But surely those life experiences need to be
:36:03. > :36:06.represented here at Westminster So that's the Parliamentary
:36:07. > :36:08.projection for gender, According to the last census
:36:09. > :36:14.in 2011, 13% of people in the UK Labour currently has 16 MPs from
:36:15. > :36:19.black, Asian or minority ethnic backgrounds or just over 6%, if they
:36:20. > :36:23.get their extra 68 seats that figure would go up to 26, 8% of their party
:36:24. > :36:27.were from BAME backgrounds. The Tories currently have 11 BAME
:36:28. > :36:34.candidates, or 4% of the party. If they get an extra 29 seats,
:36:35. > :36:37.that would mean 14 BAME MPs, The Liberal Democrats
:36:38. > :36:46.don't have any BAME MPs. If they manage to cling
:36:47. > :36:51.on to their current number of seats they would have two,
:36:52. > :36:54.giving them a proportion of 4%. If they lost
:36:55. > :36:56.their 20 most vulnerable seats, But even if you changed the mix
:36:57. > :37:06.of gender and ethnicity in Parliament would that solve
:37:07. > :37:08.the problem? Probably not. Only 10% of us have gone to
:37:09. > :37:12.a private fee paid school. A Quarter of all Mps went to Oxford
:37:13. > :37:21.or Cambridge. Only a fifth
:37:22. > :37:28.of us went to any university. There is a huge disillusionment with
:37:29. > :37:32.the political elite due to the fact that these people don't look like
:37:33. > :37:35.us. They don't speak like us, they don't have our experiences and they
:37:36. > :37:40.cannot communicate in a way we relate to. If you look at the
:37:41. > :37:43.turnout, at the moment, if you are an unskilled worker, you are 20
:37:44. > :37:46.points less likely to turn and vote than a middle-class professional and
:37:47. > :37:49.that is getting worse with single election.
:37:50. > :37:51.And that's the key, evidence does suggest that if a
:37:52. > :37:54.Party reflects the society it exists within, it is more likely to get
:37:55. > :38:04.It's just gone 11.35pm, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:05. > :38:06.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:07. > :38:10.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll have more from the panel.
:38:11. > :38:19.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:38:20. > :38:22.I'm Natalie Graham and this is the Sunday Politics in the South East.
:38:23. > :38:27.After eight years of heated arguments, a decision has fhnally
:38:28. > :38:30.been made to permanently downgrade Eastbourne's maternity servhces
:38:31. > :38:35.We?ll ask whether it was the right decision.
:38:36. > :38:37.Joining me in the studio today are the Sevenoaks
:38:38. > :38:40.MP and Government Energy Minister, Michael Fallon, and Diane J`mes
:38:41. > :38:48.First, we learnt last week that the UK population has grown more
:38:49. > :38:51.in the past year than in any other EU country.
:38:52. > :38:54.And the rate is fastest in London and the South East, fuelled by
:38:55. > :39:06.So, are we doing enough to plan ahead for that growth?
:39:07. > :39:12.Being in government, Michael Fallon, planning the long`term is a
:39:13. > :39:16.necessary job but when the government are very reluctant to do.
:39:17. > :39:19.Not least, because decisions they need to make with housing and
:39:20. > :39:25.energy. They tend to be verx unpopular. Yes, the census hs every
:39:26. > :39:30.ten years so often we are c`tching up with where the population has
:39:31. > :39:34.been. Part of the answer is getting immigration under control. There was
:39:35. > :39:40.no answer before, it was virtually unlimited. We need to make sure
:39:41. > :39:45.people coming here are only coming here to work and to make a
:39:46. > :39:49.contribution to the country. We also need to make sure we have the
:39:50. > :39:55.infrastructure. If we have increased, we need railways and
:39:56. > :39:58.scores. Too often, we wait tntil we are at crisis point. The
:39:59. > :40:03.infrastructure comes afterw`rds Schools are a good idea. Do you
:40:04. > :40:09.think you might not be in government? No, we only get the
:40:10. > :40:12.accurate information every five years with a mini census and every
:40:13. > :40:16.ten years and every ten years with a full census. It has also bedn
:40:17. > :40:21.difficult to plan ahead in some of these areas and predict the growing
:40:22. > :40:26.demand in medical technologhes for the NHS. Budget to get caught out.
:40:27. > :40:30.It's something you need to do. You need to make sure there are scored
:40:31. > :40:39.places and that in the South East it is easy enough to commute to London
:40:40. > :40:43.and other places `` school places. Do you think it is a system that
:40:44. > :40:53.means we are not that good `t it? Yes, undoubtably there is an issue
:40:54. > :40:57.with the system. The borders, the international passenger survey has
:40:58. > :41:02.been ridiculed by the Labour Party. But the infrastructure improves
:41:03. > :41:08.that? If you can't have the people in, if you don't know where they
:41:09. > :41:12.will end up, it does make it very difficult for local authorities If
:41:13. > :41:16.you go back a year, it was the leader of Kent County Counchl who
:41:17. > :41:19.made the point that when restrictions on Romanians and bog
:41:20. > :41:25.Aryans would be lifted, the impact on Kent County Council would be
:41:26. > :41:32.severe. And the numbers that came in were different. That is an dxample
:41:33. > :41:38.of someone who tried to get a grip on things and get a head. Local
:41:39. > :41:39.authorities and their questhons are not always received well. Wd have to
:41:40. > :41:41.leave it there. If, like me, you're a fan
:41:42. > :41:44.of the Archers, you'll have been interested to hear the Radio 4
:41:45. > :41:47.programme praised for the w`y it One example of that is the recent,
:41:48. > :41:51.and no doubt future, storyline about plans to put solar
:41:52. > :41:53.panels in Ambridge. It's a big issue here in thd
:41:54. > :41:57.South East because of the boom in applications for large scald solar
:41:58. > :41:59.farms over the past two years. Sara has been to Kent
:42:00. > :42:01.to find out more. You know
:42:02. > :42:07.what 10 megawatts means, don't you? I've not really
:42:08. > :42:09.had time to look it up. Well, that will be
:42:10. > :42:12.about 50 acres of prime Ambridge Plans
:42:13. > :42:21.for a solar farm ruffling fdathers in the Archers, but the Radho Four
:42:22. > :42:26.drama is a reality for many rural Where there's a boom in applications
:42:27. > :42:33.for large`scale solar developments, as landowners rush to get connected
:42:34. > :42:36.to the grid, ahead of a change This prime agricultural land
:42:37. > :42:42.near Headcorn is a case in point. It could soon be
:42:43. > :42:45.a so`called solar city, covdring 157 acres and that is one of many
:42:46. > :42:51.proposals in Kent and Sussex. Campaigners say, schemes like this
:42:52. > :42:58.will interfere with food production There is nothing green
:42:59. > :43:00.about this. All across this area, we have
:43:01. > :43:06.similar applications for large`scale installations, where developers are
:43:07. > :43:10.merely chasing access to the grid without any considdration
:43:11. > :43:14.to where they are siting thdm. It has a massive impact
:43:15. > :43:18.on our landscape, This is all Grade 2
:43:19. > :43:23.agricultural land. Farmers have been quick to `dopt
:43:24. > :43:26.solar energy as Generous subsidies have meant that
:43:27. > :43:32.the number of large`scale projects There are currently 28 developments
:43:33. > :43:38.over five megawatts compared to just A further 49 have planning
:43:39. > :43:50.permission in Kent and Sussdx. This 125 acre solar park
:43:51. > :43:55.on the Romney Marsh in Kent is one It is already generating enough
:43:56. > :44:00.electricity to power a small town, The development is on
:44:01. > :44:08.Alan Clifton`Holt's family farm As a family, as a business,
:44:09. > :44:12.we are being pragmatic about how we We want to get the best long`term
:44:13. > :44:19.return, with a secured incole, for Looking at solar and wind,
:44:20. > :44:25.is about a long`term solution that is index linked,
:44:26. > :44:28.that we can guarantee a price that From a business point of vidw,
:44:29. > :44:34.it is a bit of a no`brainer. These panels are built on some
:44:35. > :44:38.of the most fertile land in the country, but the question is
:44:39. > :44:42.how many more installations on this scale are we likely to see, now that
:44:43. > :44:46.the government has recognisdd that large`scale solar farms are going to
:44:47. > :44:51.be unpopular with local comlunities? The predicament facing Ambrhdge
:44:52. > :44:57.and the South East made it to the Commons recently,
:44:58. > :44:59.with ministers keen to stress that they are listening to concerns over
:45:00. > :45:03.the use of Britain's best f`rmland I would draw the attention
:45:04. > :45:07.of Borsetshire District Council to the planning advice
:45:08. > :45:13.and the local solar strategx. I would say the same to all
:45:14. > :45:16.councils, making clear that our focus is on Brownfield sites, not
:45:17. > :45:20.on high`grade agricultural land The Community Secretary,
:45:21. > :45:23.Eric Pickles, recently ordered another large project to be
:45:24. > :45:25.scrapped, saying, it was unsightly But, just last week,
:45:26. > :45:34.that decision was overruled in So, with the clock ticking
:45:35. > :45:40.until government subsidies `re slashed, and with no legisl`tion to
:45:41. > :45:43.stop developments, there is a question mark about whethdr we
:45:44. > :45:47.really will see the demise The solar industry says,
:45:48. > :45:53.government policy is in dis`rray. The position for solar, in
:45:54. > :45:58.terms of policy, is pretty chaotic. We are
:45:59. > :46:01.in the situation where the second cheapest and most popular rdnewable,
:46:02. > :46:05.solar, the larger scale, and also on large roofs, is effectively without
:46:06. > :46:08.a coherent policy framework. It is very difficult to unddrstand
:46:09. > :46:14.why the government would do that at this point in time, given solar s
:46:15. > :46:17.potential to be subsidy fred in just So, it seems there is uncertainty
:46:18. > :46:26.surrounding solar energy in the UK. Is this due to a lack
:46:27. > :46:30.of coherent government policy or a clash between the demand for
:46:31. > :46:33.green energy and the preservation Well, joining us now is Richard
:46:34. > :46:59.Knox`Johnston of the Campaign for We saw you there, listening in the
:47:00. > :47:02.column `` comments. In this letter to the local authority, he said it
:47:03. > :47:06.is a priority for the government and it will help us meet renewable
:47:07. > :47:14.targets. Between one solar panels or not? We want it on roofs. Not on
:47:15. > :47:18.good agricultural land. There has been a surge in applications. That
:47:19. > :47:24.quote you out, by the sound of it. You didn't expect it to be so
:47:25. > :47:29.popular. We have acted and we are issuing tougher planning guhdance
:47:30. > :47:34.that my planning `` colleagte referred to to ensure they don't go
:47:35. > :47:38.on good agricultural land. Hf they do get to the council, they can be
:47:39. > :47:42.called into the Secretary of State. First, we heard from a farmdr who
:47:43. > :47:49.have to make a pragmatic business is Asian. He said it is a no`brainer.
:47:50. > :47:55.If they can make it out of solar farms, why shouldn't farmers? There
:47:56. > :48:00.is a subsidy. It is costing too much and is undermining the rest of the
:48:01. > :48:06.renewable strategy. We have to be formed `` fair to those forls, too.
:48:07. > :48:11.We have had to put a stop to be subsidy. The cost of these things
:48:12. > :48:16.has come back enormously. P`nels are now cheaper, being imported from
:48:17. > :48:22.China. They are not being ptt in the right place. They should be on the
:48:23. > :48:28.roofs. Nobody can see them `nd they can achieve energy as a restlt. The
:48:29. > :48:32.other point, you mentioned was Eric pickle's intervention. Ultilately,
:48:33. > :48:38.you can't stop them. It was overruled, if they are allowed on
:48:39. > :48:46.prime agricultural land, thdy will be called in and overruled. We have
:48:47. > :48:51.heard calls to the end of subsidies. Eric Pickles is prepared
:48:52. > :48:57.to intervene. What more can the government do? The government has
:48:58. > :49:03.made the position clear. We are in favour of solar energy. We want them
:49:04. > :49:10.on roofs. There are plenty of spaces. There are plenty of
:49:11. > :49:17.opportunity. Are there enough Brownfield sites for these panels,
:49:18. > :49:20.as we saw in the piece, thex may be worried about their income for the
:49:21. > :49:25.future. This gives him a gu`ranteed income and you can see why he would
:49:26. > :49:29.want to have them. Let's take the point about sites. There ard sites.
:49:30. > :49:37.They must fit in with certahn criteria. If not, it would be much
:49:38. > :49:43.harder. No, I think we have always taken the same position. We have
:49:44. > :49:48.been anti`going having `` are having them on good quality land. With
:49:49. > :49:52.respect to the farm, I think he s been short sighted because H imagine
:49:53. > :49:56.the land will be far more v`luable for food production in the future.
:49:57. > :50:02.He argued the opposite. He said this was a pragmatic decision. Wd heard
:50:03. > :50:06.in the report, there has bedn a ninefold increase for in
:50:07. > :50:10.applications in the last few years. There are 49 applications going to
:50:11. > :50:17.at the moment. We have not seen the beginning of the boom, yet, have we?
:50:18. > :50:21.We are at the end of the beginning. There have been a lot of
:50:22. > :50:25.applications and this has c`used concern for local councils.
:50:26. > :50:30.Obviously, we have two replx to every application. Has that been
:50:31. > :50:32.chewed by the government announcement it will remove
:50:33. > :50:40.subsidies earlier than expected Yes, that is a factor. So you have
:50:41. > :50:49.poured fuel onto the fire bx a putting forward the end of the
:50:50. > :50:54.substances `` subsidies to 2015 It has become a huge surge. Many
:50:55. > :50:59.applications won't go through. Because they are not on good
:51:00. > :51:04.agricultural land. The subshdy will end next March. We are constlting on
:51:05. > :51:09.it, it ends next week. That is our intention. They all know th`t.
:51:10. > :51:14.Tiniest only running out. You will find that poor quality applhcations
:51:15. > :51:22.won't go through. What is UKIP's policy. We don't like solar panels.
:51:23. > :51:26.We think they are fastly inefficient, intermittent,
:51:27. > :51:31.unreliable. What could be rdcouped from them is 50%. The industry is
:51:32. > :51:37.arguing they are only getting started. That is an interesting
:51:38. > :51:42.point. But what do you do, do you invest in inefficient forms of
:51:43. > :51:47.energy or do you wait until technology `` technology get to
:51:48. > :51:52.estate where it will work. They are cheap and they will help us meet our
:51:53. > :51:57.renewable targets. It's the European Union which is directing thhs whole
:51:58. > :52:03.issue about the use of renewables. I would counter argument `` counter
:52:04. > :52:12.argue personally, and I am sure UKIP would, too. Why not, use subsidy
:52:13. > :52:16.system in the UK to use an indigenous energy resource, rather
:52:17. > :52:21.than invest in one that is so inefficient. Your leader, Nhgel
:52:22. > :52:26.Farage, last week announced a plan to a plan say national wreck down
:52:27. > :52:31.like a referendum on issues. I think that is right. This is exactly the
:52:32. > :52:37.issue that the Coalition Government tried to address. It clearlx didn't
:52:38. > :52:44.work. To me it have an issud with developments that threat turned ``
:52:45. > :52:50.communities have an issue whth developments that threaten the
:52:51. > :52:54.character of their area. Thhs is yet another issue that in Tory
:52:55. > :53:00.heartlands like Kent and Sussex where local voters are alienated. I
:53:01. > :53:06.am not clear on a UKIP's endrgy policy. We do need more homd`grown
:53:07. > :53:10.energy. We saw the threat in Ukraine are to their gas supply. We would
:53:11. > :53:14.like more shale gas and mord nuclear. We are short of endrgy and
:53:15. > :53:21.need more energy capacity in this country. What about that issue of
:53:22. > :53:25.alienating core voters? Thex don't want to see large`scale funds on
:53:26. > :53:32.green areas. That is why we are putting an end to it. We have done
:53:33. > :53:40.the same with an assured wind farms `` on shore wind farms. You are
:53:41. > :53:45.doing it to the voters? We're doing it to protect voters, to prdvent
:53:46. > :53:51.costs going up, to ensure a list `` a range of energy supplies. We need
:53:52. > :53:53.to think about the legacy of those solar sites already there. We need
:53:54. > :53:57.to move on. The news that maternity services
:53:58. > :53:59.at Eastbourne's District General Hospital will be permanentlx
:54:00. > :54:01.downgraded didn't come as a big surprise,
:54:02. > :54:03.but it was a bitter disappohntment for campaigners who have bedn
:54:04. > :54:06.fighting the plans for eight years. From now on, any mother
:54:07. > :54:10.in the town facing a complicated birth will have to travel to the
:54:11. > :54:13.consultant led unit at St Ldonards. Monica Corrina`Kavakli has been
:54:14. > :54:15.involved in the campaign One of her babies died at the DGH
:54:16. > :54:19.and she had three other difficult Thank goodness I?m not having
:54:20. > :54:26.our babies now, because I would be frightendd to
:54:27. > :54:29.death if I was having children now. We went through very traumatic
:54:30. > :54:35.experiences with our childrdn Well, the chair of the Eastbourne,
:54:36. > :54:46.Hailsham and Seaford Clinic`l Commissioning Group said it was
:54:47. > :54:49."the best that they could h`ve come up with" and that the changd will
:54:50. > :54:52.make mothers and babies safdr. So, the NHS says lives will
:54:53. > :55:06.be saved, the campaigners I go with the campaigners. H am very
:55:07. > :55:10.disappointed to hear the ch`ir say it is the best they could h`ve
:55:11. > :55:15.achieved. That is not the sort of words that will reassure people who
:55:16. > :55:19.want those services and what the hospital to stay open. They don t
:55:20. > :55:23.want to see services centralised in another location. They want to hear
:55:24. > :55:28.it is best practice and thex want access. It seems contradictory to
:55:29. > :55:35.what was said about the NHS, where the future wasn't seen in the
:55:36. > :55:39.closure and merger. Think t`nk argue that fewer larger units where they
:55:40. > :55:45.can recruit better consultants are safer, even if patients havd two
:55:46. > :55:50.travel. You don't agree? We're talking about pregnant ladids and
:55:51. > :55:55.situations with difficult bhrths. I would prefer to follow the Royal
:55:56. > :56:00.College Of Midwives. They h`ve endorsed this to a degree, but they
:56:01. > :56:05.also raised the question of road access that patient have to travel,
:56:06. > :56:11.there is an issue that they need to be an improvement in the tr`nsport
:56:12. > :56:17.network, buses. There is also a need in terms of a hopper link sdrvice.
:56:18. > :56:22.They are the experts. When they can put those three, very good reasons
:56:23. > :56:28.up to say this may work but we still have concerns. Can those patients
:56:29. > :56:33.get there? Can they see the best practice in terms of a clinhcal
:56:34. > :56:37.lead, rather than staying in an area they are comfortable in. Whx not
:56:38. > :56:43.bring the service to them. H think that is the problem. There have been
:56:44. > :56:46.similar changes in Kent, to Maidstone Hospital. It is
:56:47. > :56:51.interesting, the gulf betwedn the patients and the campaigners. They
:56:52. > :56:56.are more cynical after eight years of dialogue and discussion hn the
:56:57. > :57:02.Eastbourne case. The failurd of managers to communicate what they
:57:03. > :57:06.are doing? Yes, maybe. I don't know the Eastbourne situation. I do think
:57:07. > :57:10.these decisions should be t`ken locally when possible, not by the
:57:11. > :57:18.minister in London, and shotld be taken by emissions rather than
:57:19. > :57:25.bureaucrats or local politicians. `` clinicians. You need the clhnical
:57:26. > :57:31.decision. Nobody believes them. You can't have a consultant in dvery
:57:32. > :57:34.single unit. You have to take the advice of the clinicians and
:57:35. > :57:37.professional people involved. Let's hear from the Eastbourne MP.
:57:38. > :57:38.I?m incredibly disappointed with the decision.
:57:39. > :57:42.People who don?t live in our area may not be award
:57:43. > :57:47.of the quite deplorable road network between the Eastbourne DGH
:57:48. > :57:52.Even with blue lights, it c`n take on average 40 to 45 minutes.
:57:53. > :58:05.By public transport, it can take anything up to two hours.
:58:06. > :58:12.Prime Minister made a simil`r argument back in 2010. It w`sn't the
:58:13. > :58:17.case that people died. Stephen might be right, the road network `round
:58:18. > :58:22.Eastbourne might be more difficult than around Maidstone. That is why
:58:23. > :58:29.these decisions should be local Why don't local MPs say, actually this
:58:30. > :58:33.could be a good thing. You could get better care. That would be
:58:34. > :58:41.realistic. I think every voter wants to see their MP doing that. But
:58:42. > :58:47.there is the party whip to say, no, keep one side, I have to get my NHS
:58:48. > :58:52.reforms through. I may sound cynical and sarcastic, but that is what it
:58:53. > :58:58.is a bout. We have a Health Minister who wants to deliver savings in the
:58:59. > :59:00.NHS. He is putting pressure on local providers. We have a Health Minister
:59:01. > :59:05.who wants to deliver savings in the NHS. He is putting pressure on local
:59:06. > :59:10.providers. That is an awful lot of money and financial pressurd. A
:59:11. > :59:27.short`term response is to close services. He is a roundup. The chair
:59:28. > :59:32.of Medway Hospital is paid ?200 000 for one half days work of wdek. In
:59:33. > :59:38.the pay eight nurses. The trust say this is appropriate but people in
:59:39. > :59:41.diabolical. Kent Police havd diabolical. Kent Police havd
:59:42. > :59:45.unveiled a local police moddl in which officers are managed by
:59:46. > :59:50.district commanders rather than centrally. The chief customdr will,
:59:51. > :59:56.Alan Pughsley, is facing up to 20 million cuts which would cut jobs. I
:59:57. > :00:01.haven't got enough resources. A survey has put in southeastdrn at
:00:02. > :00:07.the bottom of Wales services in terms of customer satisfacthon.
:00:08. > :00:12.There has been a backlash to East Sussex County Council's proposal to
:00:13. > :00:15.cut glass services. Authorities say 90% of passengers would see no
:00:16. > :00:22.difference. Locals say they could be left stranded. I am very annoyed.
:00:23. > :00:33.They wouldn't like to hear what I would like to say. Things are going
:00:34. > :00:36.to get worse for southeastern passengers, not least because we
:00:37. > :00:42.have disruption at London Bridge. Yes. There has got to be proper
:00:43. > :00:48.compensation. Compensation needs to be provided by the network. We have
:00:49. > :00:52.to sort it out. People make life choices about how to commutd and
:00:53. > :00:56.they could really lose out. We have two answer it properly. Diane Jones,
:00:57. > :01:03.southeastern will get worse before it gets better. I am sure it will.
:01:04. > :01:08.It's like you're opening topic of immigration Pete stop peopld come
:01:09. > :01:11.here and they need access. H am sorry, we have two leave it there.
:01:12. > :01:15.My thanks to both my been problems elsewhere in Europe,
:01:16. > :01:17.but I take your point. Thanks to both of you today. Back to you,
:01:18. > :01:22.Andrew. Now, there have been some
:01:23. > :01:24.less-than-helpful remarks about the way the Labour party makes
:01:25. > :01:26.policy, and they've come from the man who is heading Labour's
:01:27. > :01:31.Policy Review, Jon Cruddas. In a speech to party activists he
:01:32. > :01:35.was recorded saying that, "instrumentalised, cynical nuggets
:01:36. > :01:38.of policy to chime with our focus groups and our press strategies and
:01:39. > :01:41.our desire for a topline in terms of the 24 hour media cycle,
:01:42. > :01:44.dominate and crowd out any He added that Labour's election
:01:45. > :01:54.strategy was being hampered by a The shadow chancellor, Ed Balls
:01:55. > :02:15.was asked about what Mr Cruddas had I talked to him a couple of days
:02:16. > :02:21.ago, and he's not frustrated, he is excited about his policy agenda He
:02:22. > :02:26.is frustrated that one report of 250 pages gets reduced down. So it's our
:02:27. > :02:31.fault? That is the way we live in the world in which we live, but we
:02:32. > :02:35.have big ideas about devolution long term infrastructure spending
:02:36. > :02:39.and new manufacturing policy, new investment in skills, big changes
:02:40. > :02:47.which, let's be honest, I'm really on George Osborne's agenda. How
:02:48. > :02:51.serious is this? It is Wimbledon, so let's call it an unforced error You
:02:52. > :02:55.go to the party speeches, and you don't know who is in the audience.
:02:56. > :02:59.There is no need for something as serious as this to happen. It's
:03:00. > :03:02.hugely serious because it speaks about something people have felt for
:03:03. > :03:06.a long time, that they have doled out little nuggets of policy but no
:03:07. > :03:10.overarching story. There was a quite saying the Ed Miliband has given as
:03:11. > :03:14.a shopping list, not a narrative. When people in the party say things
:03:15. > :03:19.that are true, it's very difficult for people to explain it away. Not
:03:20. > :03:22.sure Mr Miliband can win here. He was recently criticised for not
:03:23. > :03:27.having policies. Now he's being criticised for having too many. I
:03:28. > :03:29.think this line of attack is particularly wounding because he
:03:30. > :03:35.prides himself on being a politician of ideas. That is his unique selling
:03:36. > :03:40.point, and the weight that David Cameron's prime ministerial nature
:03:41. > :03:43.is his selling point. So it is wounding. If I was the Labour Party,
:03:44. > :03:49.before announcing any policy, I would ask can help fix us on the
:03:50. > :03:55.economy? It might be radicalised immolating on its own terms, but
:03:56. > :03:59.it's politically useless. -- radical and innovative on its own terms I
:04:00. > :04:02.don't think any member of the public does not think they are not radical
:04:03. > :04:05.enough or creative enough. If anything, it's the opposite. They
:04:06. > :04:09.are a bit nervous about what a Labour government could do and
:04:10. > :04:13.nervous about the economic reputation. Reassurance, caution,
:04:14. > :04:17.maybe a bit of timidity might be the notions that inform their policies
:04:18. > :04:23.or should inform their policies in night -- my view, not the opposite.
:04:24. > :04:26.I am worried for Jon Cruddas, because anyone who questions the
:04:27. > :04:31.Labour Party are part of the nexus of the banking industry who are
:04:32. > :04:33.terrified of a Labour victory. It's interesting that this goes to the
:04:34. > :04:37.heart of the debate in the Labour Party, at the highest levels, do
:04:38. > :04:41.they put a big offer to the British people, or a little off, John
:04:42. > :04:48.Cruddas offer, or Douglas Alexander offer? Ed Miliband says that his
:04:49. > :04:51.ideas about freezing energy prices and rent controls are a big offer,
:04:52. > :04:56.but his policy chief clearly has real concerns that they don't go far
:04:57. > :05:00.enough. How important a figure is John Cruddas in the project? He is
:05:01. > :05:06.hell of the -- head of the policy review and has a huge amount of
:05:07. > :05:11.power, and so him slagging off the policy review is a bad moment. He is
:05:12. > :05:14.trusted in that inner circle and the problem for Ed Miliband from the odd
:05:15. > :05:18.is that he has people with strong opinions, Maurice clasping is
:05:19. > :05:23.another, big thinkers, but they maybe don't have a precaution that a
:05:24. > :05:28.professional politician might have in terms of giving bland answers.
:05:29. > :05:31.So, David Cameron had to apologise after his former director
:05:32. > :05:32.of communications was convicted of phone hacking.
:05:33. > :05:36.David Cameron's other former friend, Rebekah Brooks, had a better day.
:05:37. > :05:42.At the same trial, she was cleared of all the charges against her.
:05:43. > :05:48.I take full responsibility for employing Andy Coulson. I did some
:05:49. > :05:51.on the basis of undertakings I was given by him about phone hacking and
:05:52. > :05:55.those turned out not to be the case. I always said that if they turned
:05:56. > :06:00.out to be wrong, I would make a full and frank apology, and I do that
:06:01. > :06:05.today. I am extremely sorry that I employed him. It was the wrong
:06:06. > :06:10.decision. I'm clear about that. When I was arrested it was in the middle
:06:11. > :06:13.of a maelstrom of controversy, politics and of comment. Some of
:06:14. > :06:24.that was there, but much of it was not, so I'm grateful to the jury for
:06:25. > :06:28.coming to that decision. Not been a great week for David Cameron. Andy
:06:29. > :06:30.Coulson found guilty, and another person who had worked in Downing
:06:31. > :06:36.Street is also charged on an unrelated issue. And he was 26- on
:06:37. > :06:39.the wrong end in Brussels, and there is a poll this morning which no one
:06:40. > :06:44.seems to be talking about which puts Labour nine points ahead. Before all
:06:45. > :06:48.that there was Dominic Cummings criticising the Downing Street
:06:49. > :06:52.operation is being shambolic. Is Mr Cameron's judgement becoming an
:06:53. > :06:55.issue? Yes, what often happens when one leader is under pressure for
:06:56. > :07:00.long enough, as Ed Miliband has been the six months, we get bored. We
:07:01. > :07:03.then switch the Gatling gun to the other guy. So David Cameron going
:07:04. > :07:06.into the Conference season might be the man under pressure. The whole
:07:07. > :07:10.Andy Coulson saga has raised questions about his judgement and
:07:11. > :07:13.those around him, but any political damage she was going to sustain over
:07:14. > :07:16.Andy Coulson and phone hacking was sustained years ago -- he was
:07:17. > :07:20.going. It was Brother beyond the date the News of the World was
:07:21. > :07:25.closed down three summers ago - it was probably on the date. As the
:07:26. > :07:31.hacking trial cut through to the general public? Or is it just as
:07:32. > :07:35.media and political obsessives? I am sure it has cut through in some way
:07:36. > :07:39.but it didn't necessarily happen in recent days, more likely in recent
:07:40. > :07:43.years. It was some time ago that Andy Coulson resigned in high
:07:44. > :07:47.profile circumstances. It has had a slow burning effect over a few
:07:48. > :07:53.years, and the Prime Minister fears the Big Bang. But there is one theme
:07:54. > :07:57.and words that unites this week with Juncker and Andy Coulson, and that
:07:58. > :08:00.is that the Prime Minister can be lackadaisical. He was lackadaisical
:08:01. > :08:03.in not asking big question is when there was a lot in the public domain
:08:04. > :08:07.about what had happened that the News of the World. And he was
:08:08. > :08:10.lackadaisical with Juncker. He made a calculation that Angela Merkel
:08:11. > :08:14.would support him and it turned out she couldn't. Maybe he needs to
:08:15. > :08:18.change. He was late in understanding what was happening in Germany when
:08:19. > :08:25.both the Christian Democrats, her party, wanted Juncker, and when the
:08:26. > :08:30.actual Murdoch press of Germany said that they wanted him as well. He
:08:31. > :08:34.never saw that. He only looks at one person in Germany, Angela Merkel,
:08:35. > :08:39.and it is a grand coalition, and the SDP felt strongly about it. He is,
:08:40. > :08:41.in a sense, an essay crisis Prime Minister. He is, in a sense, an
:08:42. > :08:47.essay crisis Prime Minister. He s very good in an essay, and the SA
:08:48. > :08:52.gets a double first the essay. Is Ed Miliband right to be angry? He has
:08:53. > :08:57.John Cruddas attacking him, and that is the news leading in the Sunday
:08:58. > :09:00.Times, and has not been a good week the Prime Minister and in which Mr
:09:01. > :09:03.Miliband has a bigger lead in the polls than he has had some time so
:09:04. > :09:07.he must be wondering why they are having a go at him. He made a
:09:08. > :09:10.tactical error in Prime Minister's Questions by asking all the
:09:11. > :09:14.questions about Andy Coulson. The one at the end about what Gus
:09:15. > :09:19.O'Donnell said was rather hopeful in the extreme. Politicians can be out
:09:20. > :09:23.of touch on all sides of the house. The problem is, and there is a great
:09:24. > :09:27.quote by William Hague, is that the Tory party has two modes, panic and
:09:28. > :09:30.complacency. At the moment they are complacent. They think Ed Miliband
:09:31. > :09:33.will lose Labour election but I don't know if they have a positive
:09:34. > :09:36.plan about how to win it. -- lose Labour the election.
:09:37. > :09:39.Now, we knew Prince Charles had trouble keeping his views
:09:40. > :09:41.about the environment and the countryside to himself,
:09:42. > :09:43.but that's not the only thing he's passionate about according to
:09:44. > :09:46.a radio four documentary to be broadcast this lunchtime.
:09:47. > :09:51.Here's former Education Secretary, David Blunkett on how the Prince
:09:52. > :09:54.had once attempted to influence his policy on schools.
:09:55. > :10:00.I would explain that our policy was not to expand grammar schools, and
:10:01. > :10:06.he didn't like that. He was very keen that we should go back to a
:10:07. > :10:10.different era where youngsters had what he would've seen as the
:10:11. > :10:11.opportunity to escape from their background, where as I wanted to
:10:12. > :10:13.change their background. And you can hear that documentary -
:10:14. > :10:23.it's called The Royal Activist Does it matter that Prince Charles
:10:24. > :10:26.is getting involved in this kind of policy, released behind closed doors
:10:27. > :10:32.question mark on the issue of grammar schools is not clear anybody
:10:33. > :10:35.listened to him. I think it is a principal problem. I've spoken to
:10:36. > :10:38.form a government members, and judging by what they say, if
:10:39. > :10:42.anything we underestimate how much contacting makes with ministers And
:10:43. > :10:48.how many representations he makes on the issue that interest him. There
:10:49. > :10:51.has been an attempt to keep it hidden. It's almost a theological
:10:52. > :10:56.question about whether the future monarch should be involved in the
:10:57. > :10:59.public realm. If he wants to influence policy, shouldn't we know
:11:00. > :11:04.what policy he's trying to influence and what position he is taking?
:11:05. > :11:10.Sewer speech is better than private one-on-one lobbying. Possibly - so
:11:11. > :11:14.a speech. Prince Charles's views are interesting. He's not a straight
:11:15. > :11:18.down the light reactionary. He makes a left-wing case for rammer schools.
:11:19. > :11:23.There is an interview with him in the Financial Times in which his
:11:24. > :11:26.argument in favour for architectural development takes into account
:11:27. > :11:29.affordable housing in the wake which no one would have suspected. He has
:11:30. > :11:33.interesting views, but I'm not convinced on the point of principle
:11:34. > :11:38.whether someone is dashing his position should be speaking. Your
:11:39. > :11:45.former employer 's famously described him as the SDP king. You
:11:46. > :11:52.slightly feel sorry for him. He s 66 and still an apprentice. He's in a
:11:53. > :11:56.difficult position. We know what the powers of the monarch are. They are
:11:57. > :11:59.to advise in courage and warned the Prime Minister of the day. These in
:12:00. > :12:02.the difficult position where the problem for him is that there is a
:12:03. > :12:06.line that isn't really defined, but you slightly feel he just gets a bit
:12:07. > :12:12.too close to it and possibly crosses that line with the lobbying that
:12:13. > :12:16.goes on. I think the worrying thing is that at some point he will become
:12:17. > :12:21.King and will he know that he has got to work within that framework?
:12:22. > :12:24.He is somebody that cannot win either. If he doesn't take an
:12:25. > :12:28.interest in public policy, he will be thought to be a bit of a waster,
:12:29. > :12:32.going round opening town halls, and when he does have an interest we
:12:33. > :12:37.think, hey, you are in the monarchy, stay out. There's an interesting
:12:38. > :12:42.parallel with first ladies who are encouraged to find a controversial
:12:43. > :12:47.charitable project. Michelle Obama has bought childhood obesity, and
:12:48. > :12:50.that is the standard thing. Everybody knows that that is a bad
:12:51. > :12:54.thing, but you are not offering solutions that are party political.
:12:55. > :12:57.I feel there must be a middle way with what he should be able to do
:12:58. > :13:02.about finding big causes he can complain about without getting stuck
:13:03. > :13:05.into lobbying ministers. Which can become a party political issue. He
:13:06. > :13:08.has had some influence on architecture, because the buildings
:13:09. > :13:10.we are putting up to date are better than the ones we used to put up
:13:11. > :13:15.The Daily Politics is on BBC 2 at 11:00am
:13:16. > :13:19.We'll be back here at the same time next week.
:13:20. > :13:24.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.