:00:35. > :00:41.Up to a million public sector workers will strike this week.
:00:42. > :00:44.It's one of the biggest walk-outs since 201 .
:00:45. > :00:46.The country's top trade unionist Frances O'Grady and
:00:47. > :00:51.Tory Business Minister Matt Hancock go head-to-head.
:00:52. > :00:55.The Tour de France seems to have cheered him up - just as well
:00:56. > :00:58.for the Deputy Prime Minister hasn't got much else to smile about.
:00:59. > :01:01.Nick Clegg joins me live from Sheffield to discuss the
:01:02. > :01:07.Just over ten weeks until Scotland determines its future.
:01:08. > :01:11.The man leading the campaign AGAINST independence, Alistair Darling,
:01:12. > :01:22.joins me from Edinburgh. Could proposals by the European
:01:23. > :01:35.And with me throughout the show three top-flight political
:01:36. > :01:38.journalists always ahead of the peleton - Nick Watt,
:01:39. > :01:52.They'll be tweeting faster than Tour de France cyclists can pedal.
:01:53. > :01:54.The news is dominated this morning by stories swirling
:01:55. > :01:57.around allegations of an historic Westminster paedophile ring.
:01:58. > :02:00.Concern has grown because of the disappearance of a dossier
:02:01. > :02:02.handed over to the Home Office in 1983, along with over 100 official
:02:03. > :02:04.files related to it and possibly containing details of historic child
:02:05. > :02:10.Labour is calling for a public inquiry led by a child protection
:02:11. > :02:15.But speaking earlier on The Andrew Marr Show this morning
:02:16. > :02:20.the Education Secretary Michael Gove ruled that out.
:02:21. > :02:26.The most important thing that we need to do is ensure that the due
:02:27. > :02:30.process of law pursues those who may be guilty of individual crimes and
:02:31. > :02:34.we also learn lessons about what may or may not have gone wrong in the
:02:35. > :02:37.past, but it is also important to emphasise that many of the
:02:38. > :02:42.allegations that are being made are historic. And what we do now in
:02:43. > :02:46.order to keep children safer is better and stronger than was the
:02:47. > :02:50.case when 20 or 30 years ago. Without getting into a boring
:02:51. > :02:55.tit-for-tat, public inquiry, "yes" or "no"? No. Helen, can the
:02:56. > :02:59.Government go on resisting calls for a full-scale inquiry? It is very
:03:00. > :03:03.hard. There are cynical and non-cynical reasons for calling for
:03:04. > :03:07.an inquiry. The cynical one allows you to say I can't comment on this.
:03:08. > :03:12.The non-cynical is it manages to get people to air allegations in a way
:03:13. > :03:16.that is safe. What we saw at the Leveson Inquiry was helpful, people
:03:17. > :03:20.who felt they had been shut out from justice getting a chance to tell
:03:21. > :03:23.their side of the story. A public inquiry in this case is a good idea.
:03:24. > :03:28.Labour have called for a lot of public inquiries. A list was made in
:03:29. > :03:34.2012 of how many they called for. Not only Savile, but the West Coast
:03:35. > :03:37.Main Line and breast implants. On this particular issue, the people
:03:38. > :03:40.don't trust the politicians, they don't trust the police either
:03:41. > :03:45.because they may have been complicit in a cover-up. They may not trust
:03:46. > :03:50.the Home Office who we are told some of their officials were mentioned in
:03:51. > :03:54.the dossier? That is what David Cameron is hanging on to. This is a
:03:55. > :03:57.matter now because they are alleged criminal activity, it is for the
:03:58. > :04:03.police to investigate. In that big piece in the Sunday Times, Tim
:04:04. > :04:04.Shipman reports one of the people making the allegations lives in the
:04:05. > :04:07.United States making the allegations lives in the
:04:08. > :04:10.been out to the United States to interview him. The Prime Minister
:04:11. > :04:10.would say that is how serious the police are taking it. The problem
:04:11. > :04:17.for the Prime Minister - he police are taking it. The problem
:04:18. > :04:21.allergic to big public inquiry. His finest moment was his response to
:04:22. > :04:21.the Bloody Sunday inquiry shortly after he became Prime
:04:22. > :04:35.inrequest -- that inquiry took 2 years to report. The problem is the
:04:36. > :04:41.dossier has gone missing, the files have gone missing, more allegations
:04:42. > :04:43.keep coming out either directly or indirectly. It doesn't look like it
:04:44. > :04:51.is going to go away? The fact the dossiers are missing means it is
:04:52. > :04:55.inappropriate for the Home Office to be investigating this. There is
:04:56. > :04:55.inappropriate for the Home Office to a police investigation. If after
:04:56. > :05:02.that, there are questions unanswered which can only be answered by
:05:03. > :05:03.that, there are questions unanswered public inquiry, or which require
:05:04. > :05:06.resources that can only be commanded by a public inquiry, I could see the
:05:07. > :05:12.case for going down that road. I fear that sometimes in this country
:05:13. > :05:16.we invest almost supernatural powers in what a public inquiry can do I
:05:17. > :05:20.wonder whether there is another example of a country that goes
:05:21. > :05:24.through this stale ritual every few years of a scandal emerging, the
:05:25. > :05:27.opposition calling for an inquiry, the Government saying no and then
:05:28. > :05:31.holding the line or giving in. I don't know what we think this
:05:32. > :05:36.inquiries can do. It comes back to your point, Helen, you should be
:05:37. > :05:42.careful what you call an inquiry on so it doesn't devalue the concept.
:05:43. > :05:44.On Thursday up to a million public sector workers - including teachers,
:05:45. > :05:46.firemen and council workers - will go on strike.
:05:47. > :05:48.Their unions have differing gripes but the fact they're all striking
:05:49. > :05:51.on the same day is designed to send a strong message to the government.
:05:52. > :05:53.As the economy picks up again they're demanding an end
:05:54. > :05:59.Growth has returned strongly to the UK economy
:06:00. > :06:03.and unemployment is at its lowest level for more than five years.
:06:04. > :06:05.So why is there still talk of austerity
:06:06. > :06:10.The deficit is coming down but much more slowly than the government
:06:11. > :06:17.And accumulated deficits - the national debt -
:06:18. > :06:26.The UK is now in hock to the tune of ?1.3 trillion - and rising.
:06:27. > :06:30.In fact, we're only 40% of the way through George Osborne's planned
:06:31. > :06:33.austerity, with the chancellor now saying he won't manage to balance
:06:34. > :06:39.Unions are now rebelling against tight pay controls.
:06:40. > :06:42.Since 2010, average public sector pay, which goes to about 1 in 5
:06:43. > :06:50.Over the same period, prices increased by 16% -
:06:51. > :06:53.meaning the average public sector worker saw their pay squeezed
:06:54. > :07:01.Going head-to-head on the public sector strikes and austerity -
:07:02. > :07:04.the general secretary of the TUC Frances O'Grady, and Conservative
:07:05. > :07:24.We have seen it, public sector pay squeezed by 9% under the Coalition
:07:25. > :07:29.Government. Isn't it time to take your foot off the brake a bit? I
:07:30. > :07:34.don't think it is the right time to let go of the public finances at
:07:35. > :07:38.all. We were always clear that this is what's called a structural
:07:39. > :07:43.deficit, it doesn't go away just because the growth is returning and
:07:44. > :07:47.the economy is coming back. We have protected and are protecting the
:07:48. > :07:54.lowest paid public sector workers who weren't part of the pay freeze
:07:55. > :07:59.and now pay going up by 1%. These are difficult decisions. We have had
:08:00. > :08:04.that discussion many times. They are necessary in order to keep that plan
:08:05. > :08:07.on track and as we can see in the wider economy, it is working.
:08:08. > :08:12.People's living standards will have to continue to fall if you are in
:08:13. > :08:16.the public sector? We need to keep public spending under control and
:08:17. > :08:20.pay restraint is one of the main ways of being able... The answer is
:08:21. > :08:23.yes? The answer is this is necessary. The answer is yes, this
:08:24. > :08:26.is necessary. It isn't because we want to. We have to. This strike
:08:27. > :08:29.isn't going to change the Government's mind, is it? It does
:08:30. > :08:32.seem like the Government isn't listening. We have had years... They
:08:33. > :08:36.are listening, they just don't agree. Ordinary people, including
:08:37. > :08:41.those in the public sector, are finding it really tough. What really
:08:42. > :08:45.sticks in the throat is the idea that money can be found to give tax
:08:46. > :08:51.cuts to billionaires, to millionaires and to big
:08:52. > :08:57.corporations. But it can't be found to help 500,000 workers in local
:08:58. > :09:00.government, dinner ladies, school meal workers, lollipop men and women
:09:01. > :09:04.who are earning less than the living wage. What do you say to that? We
:09:05. > :09:08.have protected those who are the least well-paid in the public
:09:09. > :09:12.sector. But this is about a long-term... How can you? Hold on.
:09:13. > :09:16.You have said you have protected them. This involves ordinary people,
:09:17. > :09:24.many watching this programme, they have had a 1% pay rise in some cases
:09:25. > :09:29.since 2010. The average gas bill is up 57%, electric bill up 22%, food
:09:30. > :09:36.costs up 16%, running a car 11% in what way have you protected people
:09:37. > :09:40.from spending they have to make Firstly, you read out the average
:09:41. > :09:44.increases in public sector pay. That has had the biggest impact at the
:09:45. > :09:49.top end and those at the bottom end have been best protected, as best we
:09:50. > :09:53.could. Of course, we have also taken two million people out of income tax
:09:54. > :09:57.and increased the income tax threshold which has a big positive
:09:58. > :10:01.impact. We have frozen and then cut fuel duty, which would have been 20
:10:02. > :10:05.pence higher. I wanted to take on this point about priorities. We have
:10:06. > :10:10.got to make sure that we get the economy going at the same time and
:10:11. > :10:15.we raised more money from those at the top than we did before 2010
:10:16. > :10:20.partly because we have encouraged them to invest. And this is a really
:10:21. > :10:25.important balance of making sure we get the books back in order, we have
:10:26. > :10:30.stability for family finances and we get the economy going. Why not
:10:31. > :10:33.spread the living wage? We know you could pay for that pay increase
:10:34. > :10:37.itself if you spread the living wage through the private sector and
:10:38. > :10:43.guarantee... The living wage being above the minimum wage? Absolutely.
:10:44. > :10:52.?7.65 in the rest of the country, ?8.80 in London. What is the answer?
:10:53. > :10:59.I'm a fan of the minimum wage. But not for public sector workers. Being
:11:00. > :11:02.able to pay low-paid workers as much as possible within the constraints
:11:03. > :11:05.of the public finances is something I have pushed very hard. The
:11:06. > :11:10.evidence we can increase the minimum wage has to be balanced which the
:11:11. > :11:18.Low Pay Commission do with the impact on the number of jobs... Even
:11:19. > :11:23.after a pay freeze for quite a while among public sector workers, they
:11:24. > :11:32.are still paid 15% on average more than those in the private sector?
:11:33. > :11:36.That is not true. It is, according to the ONS figures. I read that
:11:37. > :11:40.report this morning. If you look at the whole package, what they are
:11:41. > :11:49.saying is public service workers are worse off. Average earnings in the
:11:50. > :11:55.public sector are ?16.28 an hour compared to ?14.16 private. You are
:11:56. > :11:58.comparing apples and pears. It's the kind of jobs and the size of the
:11:59. > :12:03.workplace that people work in. They are still overall on average better
:12:04. > :12:09.off? Lower paid workers tend to be better off because unions negotiate
:12:10. > :12:17.better deals for lower paid workers. They are more unionised in the pry
:12:18. > :12:22.private sector. The public sector is worse off. This is a political
:12:23. > :12:25.strike, isn't it? There is a whole disparate range of reasons. The
:12:26. > :12:29.strike is saying that you are against this Government, that is
:12:30. > :12:33.what this is about? I this I what firefighters, local government
:12:34. > :12:37.workers and health workers who are protesting, too, alongside teachers
:12:38. > :12:41.are saying is that this Government is not listening, it is out of
:12:42. > :12:45.touch, people can't carry on having cuts in their living standards
:12:46. > :12:50.depending on benefits. When will the public sector worker ever get a real
:12:51. > :12:56.increase in their pay under a Conservative Government? Well, we
:12:57. > :13:00.certainly hope to have the books balanced by 2018. Not before then?
:13:01. > :13:06.2018 is when we hope to be able to be in surplus. It is testament. .
:13:07. > :13:15.So, no real pay increase for public sector workers before 2018?
:13:16. > :13:19.Interestingly, this isn't just about the Conservatives and the Lib Dems,
:13:20. > :13:23.the Labour Party leadership have said it is a test of their
:13:24. > :13:26.credibility that they support the squeeze on public sector pay. I look
:13:27. > :13:29.forward to them, they ought to come out and say very clearly that these
:13:30. > :13:33.strikes are wrong and they are against the strikes and stop taking
:13:34. > :13:38.union money. It is a democratic right. Hold on. They are - they
:13:39. > :13:46.think the policy of pay restraint is necessary. Alright. On this point
:13:47. > :13:52.about democracy... Ask yourself why so many ordinary decent public
:13:53. > :13:59.service workers are so fed up. They have seen so many billions of pounds
:14:00. > :14:09.wasted through outsourcing to organisations like G4 S. In Unite
:14:10. > :14:16.and UNISON the turnout in this vote was under 20%. Alright. OK. One
:14:17. > :14:20.final question... Hold on. You said millions and millions voted on
:14:21. > :14:24.this... I want to ask you this question. Is the story in the Mail
:14:25. > :14:29.on Sunday today that Mr Cameron s planning a big crackdown on the
:14:30. > :14:35.unions over balloting, is that true? Well, strikes like this... I know
:14:36. > :14:38.the cases, is it true you are going to dhang the law? Strikes like this
:14:39. > :14:43.make that argument stronger. The Conservative Party is in Government
:14:44. > :14:45.on the basis of 23% of the electorate... We have run out of
:14:46. > :14:49.time. Thank you very much. "Should Scotland be
:14:50. > :14:52.an independent country?" That's the question the people of
:14:53. > :14:53.Scotland will answer in a referendum If the polls are to be believed
:14:54. > :14:57.the voters will answer "no". But in 2011 - ten weeks before
:14:58. > :14:59.the Holyrood elections - the polls told us that Labour was going to win
:15:00. > :15:02.and look what happened there - a Alistair Darling is leading
:15:03. > :15:24.the campaign against independnence. is one that puts the matter of
:15:25. > :15:31.independence to bed for a generation. In numerical terms, what
:15:32. > :15:35.would that be? We need a decisive result in September, I think we will
:15:36. > :15:40.get that provided we get our arguments across in the next couple
:15:41. > :15:45.of months. What would it be in figures? I am not going to put a
:15:46. > :15:51.number on it. People will look at it and say, OK, you have had two and a
:15:52. > :15:57.half years of debate and Scotland has now decided. The polls may be
:15:58. > :16:01.encouraging at the moment but I am not complacent, there is still a
:16:02. > :16:07.long way to go. Speculating... If you don't want to answer that, that
:16:08. > :16:12.is fair enough. Your side claims that a vote for independence is a
:16:13. > :16:17.vote for massive uncertainty but if it is a no vote there is lots of
:16:18. > :16:21.uncertainty too. All of the Westminster parties are promising
:16:22. > :16:28.devolution but there is no timetable, no certainty. Yes, there
:16:29. > :16:34.is. For the first time I can remember, all three parties are more
:16:35. > :16:40.or less on the same page in terms of additional powers, we already have
:16:41. > :16:45.powers in terms of policing and transport, now more powers are
:16:46. > :16:53.planned in relation to tax and welfare. But you are all saying
:16:54. > :16:56.different things. Between 2009 and 2012, the three parties have
:16:57. > :17:01.slightly different proposals but they came together and there was an
:17:02. > :17:09.agreed series of reforms in relation to tax which are now on the statute
:17:10. > :17:13.book. If you go back to the devolutionary settlement in 199 ,
:17:14. > :17:18.people unified around a single proposition so there is history here
:17:19. > :17:21.and these three parties have delivered and they will deliver in
:17:22. > :17:28.the event of people saying we will stay part of the UK. If Scotland
:17:29. > :17:32.vote no to independence, when will Scotland get these extra powers I
:17:33. > :17:37.would imagine that in the general election all three parties will have
:17:38. > :17:41.something in their manifesto and you would expect to see legislation in
:17:42. > :17:45.the session of Parliament that follows that. Imagining is not
:17:46. > :17:51.certainty. Because the three parties have said this is what they will do,
:17:52. > :17:56.and it is important having said that they stick to it. If you look in the
:17:57. > :18:02.past when the Nationalists said the same thing, when they cast doubt
:18:03. > :18:07.over what would happen in 2012, we delivered. The only party that
:18:08. > :18:10.walked out of both of these discussions were the Nationalists
:18:11. > :18:15.because they are not interested in more powers, they want a complete
:18:16. > :18:20.break. You cannot say that if Edinburgh gets more devolution that
:18:21. > :18:27.wouldn't mean fewer Scottish MPs in Westminster, can you? Nobody has any
:18:28. > :18:33.plans to reduce the number of MPs. If you step back from this moment,
:18:34. > :18:37.what people have been asked to do in September is to vote on the future
:18:38. > :18:42.of their country, Scotland, and whether we should be part of the UK.
:18:43. > :18:46.When I say part of the UK, full members of the UK with
:18:47. > :18:50.representation in the House of Commons and the institutions that
:18:51. > :18:57.affect our lives. This is a critically important vote. We want
:18:58. > :19:01.to see more decentralisation of power to Scotland, and to local
:19:02. > :19:06.authorities within Scotland, but we don't want a complete break with the
:19:07. > :19:11.uncertainties, the risks and the downright disadvantages that would
:19:12. > :19:20.throw Scotland's away if we were to make that break. The economic
:19:21. > :19:38.arguments are dominating people s thinking, the polls show, that is
:19:39. > :19:42.what is dominating at the moment. You cannot guarantee continued
:19:43. > :19:49.membership of the European Union given all the talk now about an
:19:50. > :19:54.in-out UK referendum. Firstly I don't think anyone has ever argued
:19:55. > :19:58.Scotland wouldn't get back in. The big question is the terms and
:19:59. > :20:02.conditions we would have to meet and we are applying to get into
:20:03. > :20:08.something that is established, it wouldn't be a negotiation. What we
:20:09. > :20:13.have said is there is no way Europe would let Scotland keep the rebate
:20:14. > :20:20.which Scotland has, there would be big questions over whether we have
:20:21. > :20:24.to join the euro, and other terms and conditions. The European Union
:20:25. > :20:30.does not act with any great speed, on average it takes eight and a half
:20:31. > :20:34.years to get into Europe. I don t want that uncertainty or the
:20:35. > :20:40.disadvantages that would come Scotland's away that come with
:20:41. > :20:47.losing clout in the European Union. The second point you asked me about
:20:48. > :20:51.is in relation to the UK's membership of the European Union,
:20:52. > :21:01.and if you look at polls, the majority of people still want to
:21:02. > :21:06.stay in the UK. Frankly, a lot of people on my side didn't make the
:21:07. > :21:12.argument against independence for a long time, we have been doing that
:21:13. > :21:17.over the last two and a half years and we are making progress and that
:21:18. > :21:21.is why I can say I think we will win provided we continue to get our
:21:22. > :21:25.arguments across. Similarly with the European Union, the case needs to be
:21:26. > :21:32.made because it is a powerful case. Isn't it true that the Nationalists
:21:33. > :21:41.win either way? They win if it is a yes vote, and they win if it is a no
:21:42. > :21:48.vote. They wanted devolution max so they win either way. There is a
:21:49. > :21:52.world of difference between devolution and further devolution
:21:53. > :21:57.where you remain part of the UK There is a world of difference
:21:58. > :22:02.between that and making a break where Scotland becomes a foreign
:22:03. > :22:07.country to the rest of the UK. You lose that security and those
:22:08. > :22:16.opportunities. You lose the same currency, the opportunity with
:22:17. > :22:21.pensions and so on. They are entitled to argue this case with
:22:22. > :22:27.passion, they want a break, but the two things are worlds apart. Gordon
:22:28. > :22:31.Brown said that the no campaign was too negative, have you adjusted to
:22:32. > :22:36.take that criticism into account? Ever since I launched this campaign
:22:37. > :22:42.over two years ago I said we would make a strong powerful case for
:22:43. > :22:48.remaining part of the UK. Look at our research, where we have had
:22:49. > :22:52.warnings from people to say that if we do well with research in Scotland
:22:53. > :22:58.we get more than our population share of the grand and we gain from
:22:59. > :23:02.that. There is a positive case but equally nobody will stop me from
:23:03. > :23:06.saying to the Nationalists, look at the assertions you make which are
:23:07. > :23:11.collapsing like skittles at the moment. Their assertions don't stand
:23:12. > :23:17.up. They assert that somehow milk and honey will be flowing. It is
:23:18. > :23:22.perfectly healthy within a referendum campaign to say that what
:23:23. > :23:39.you are saying simply isn't true. You have been negative, we all know
:23:40. > :23:48.about the so-called Cyber Nats book you compared Alex Salmond to the
:23:49. > :23:53.leader of North Korea. On! The context was that Alex Salmond was
:23:54. > :23:59.being asked why it was that UKIP had additional seat and he appeared to
:24:00. > :24:05.blame television being been doing from another country, from BBC South
:24:06. > :24:14.of the border. If you cannot have humour in a debate, heaven help us.
:24:15. > :24:18.I think it is important in this debate that people from outside
:24:19. > :24:23.politics should be allowed to have their say whatever side they are on
:24:24. > :24:28.because that will make for a far better, healthier debate. Nobody
:24:29. > :24:33.should be put in a state of fear and alarm by worrying about what will
:24:34. > :24:38.happen if they stand up. Despite the nastiness, more and more people are
:24:39. > :24:46.making a stand. We have run out of time. Thank you.
:24:47. > :24:53.I will be talking to the SNP's hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon
:24:54. > :24:58.next week on Sunday Politics. Scotland: For Richer or Poorer will
:24:59. > :25:03.be on BBC Two at 9pm tomorrow. Disastrous results in the European
:25:04. > :25:09.elections, it is fair to say the Lib Dems are down in the doldrums. In a
:25:10. > :25:18.moment I will be speaking to Nick Clegg, but first Emily has been
:25:19. > :25:32.asking what Lib Dems would say to the Prime -- Deputy Prime Minister
:25:33. > :25:36.on Call Clegg. Our phone in this week is the challenges facing the
:25:37. > :25:41.Liberal Democrats. They are rock bottom in the polls and have dire
:25:42. > :25:46.results in the local and European elections so what can the party do
:25:47. > :25:51.to turn things around? Get in touch, we are going straight to line
:25:52. > :25:57.one and Gareth. How much is a problem of that loss of local
:25:58. > :26:00.support? It is a massive problem because those are the building
:26:01. > :26:06.blocks of our success. The councillors who gets the case work
:26:07. > :26:12.done are also the people who go out and deliver the leaflets and knock
:26:13. > :26:17.on doors. Interesting, and it is not just local support the party has
:26:18. > :26:22.lost, is it? In the next general election there are some big-name
:26:23. > :26:31.Liberal Democrat MPs standing down like Malcolm Bruce and Ming
:26:32. > :26:37.Campbell, how much of a problem will that be? That is a real challenge
:26:38. > :26:42.and we have some of our brightest and best reaching an age of maturity
:26:43. > :26:47.at the same moment so that is quite an additional test in what will be a
:26:48. > :26:52.difficult election anyway. So how does the party need to position
:26:53. > :26:58.itself to win back support? Let s go to Chris online free, has the party
:26:59. > :27:07.got its strategy right? There is always a danger of appearing to be a
:27:08. > :27:10.party that merely dilutes Labour or dilutes the Conservatives. We have a
:27:11. > :27:14.of is serious, positive messages and we need to get those across in the
:27:15. > :27:20.next election because if we don t people will vote for the Tories
:27:21. > :27:26.Nick, what do you think of the party's message at the moment? I
:27:27. > :27:31.have had a look at early draft of our manifesto and there is some good
:27:32. > :27:36.stuff in there but the authors are probably too interested in what may
:27:37. > :27:41.think we have achieved in the last five years and not really focusing
:27:42. > :28:10.on what the voters will want to be hearing about the next five years.
:28:11. > :28:14.Perhaps they should get out more and test some of these messages on the
:28:15. > :28:17.doorstep. So you want to see the top ranks of the party on the doorstep.
:28:18. > :28:22.Gareth online one also wants to make a point about the manifesto. There
:28:23. > :28:26.is clearly a problem somewhere near the top and there are some people
:28:27. > :28:30.who seem to be obsessed with power for power's sake, and happy with a
:28:31. > :28:35.timid offer but the Liberal Democrats want to change things We
:28:36. > :28:40.are running out of time so let's try to squeeze one more call in. What
:28:41. > :28:45.are your thoughts on the long-term future of the party? I think serious
:28:46. > :28:50.long-term danger is that the party could be relegated to the fringes of
:28:51. > :28:53.the UK and no longer being a national party. We have gone back
:28:54. > :28:57.decades if that happens because for many years we have been represented
:28:58. > :29:00.in every part of the country at some level and we have got to rescue
:29:01. > :29:04.ourselves from that. Some interesting views but we are going
:29:05. > :29:09.to have to wait until the general election next year to find out how
:29:10. > :29:13.well the Lib Dems face up to these challenges. Thanks for listening, we
:29:14. > :29:16.are going to finish with an old classic now.
:29:17. > :29:18.# I'm sorry, I'm sorry... #. Nick Clegg, welcome to the
:29:19. > :29:23.programme. I want to come onto your situation in a minute but as you
:29:24. > :29:25.will have seen in the papers, there is mounting concern over and
:29:26. > :29:27.historic Westminster paedophile ring, and files relating to it
:29:28. > :29:31.mysteriously disappearing. Why are you against a full public enquiry
:29:32. > :29:41.into this? I wouldn't rule anything out. I think we should do anything
:29:42. > :29:56.it takes to uncover this and achieve justice.
:29:57. > :30:02.delivered, even all these many years later. How do you do it? There is an
:30:03. > :30:06.inquiry in the Home Office about what's happened to these documents,
:30:07. > :30:09.serious questions need to be asked about what happened in the Home
:30:10. > :30:13.Office and those questions need to be answered. There are inquiries in
:30:14. > :30:17.the BBC, in the NHS and most importantly of all the police are
:30:18. > :30:23.looking into the places where this abuse was alleged to have taken
:30:24. > :30:28.place. All I would say is, let's make sure that justice is delivered,
:30:29. > :30:33.truth is uncovered and I think that the way to do that, as we have seen,
:30:34. > :30:37.is by allowing the police to get on with their work. You say that, but
:30:38. > :30:42.there are only seven police involved in this inquiry. There are 195
:30:43. > :30:45.involved in the hacking investigations. We can both agree
:30:46. > :30:50.that child abuse is more important and serious than hacking. The Home
:30:51. > :30:54.Office, there are reports that Home Office officials may have been
:30:55. > :31:00.mentioned in the dossier, people don't trust people to investigate
:31:01. > :31:03.themselves, Mr Clegg? No, I accept that we need to make sure that and
:31:04. > :31:07.the police need to make sure that the police investigations are
:31:08. > :31:13.thorough, well resourced. I can t think of anything more horrendous, I
:31:14. > :31:15.can't, than powerful people organising themselves and worse
:31:16. > :31:19.still, this is what is alleged, covering up for each other to abuse
:31:20. > :31:24.the most vulnerable people in society's care - children. But at
:31:25. > :31:29.the end of the day, the only way you can get people in the dock, the only
:31:30. > :31:32.way you can get people charged, is by allowing the prosecuting
:31:33. > :31:38.authorities and the police to do their job. I have an open mind about
:31:39. > :31:41.what other inquiries take place A number of other inquiries are taking
:31:42. > :31:45.place. I assume any additional inquiries wouldn't be able to second
:31:46. > :31:48.guess or look into the matters which the police are looking into already.
:31:49. > :31:51.All I would say is that people who have information, who want to
:31:52. > :31:54.provide information which they think is relevant to this, please get in
:31:55. > :32:00.touch with the police. Alright. Let's come on to our own inquiry
:32:01. > :32:04.into the state of the Lib Dems. You have attempted to distance yourself
:32:05. > :32:08.and the party from the Tories, but still stay in Government - it is
:32:09. > :32:13.called aggressive differentiation. Why isn't it working? It's not
:32:14. > :32:19.called aggressive differentiation. It is called "coalition". It is two
:32:20. > :32:22.parties who retain different identities, different values, have
:32:23. > :32:26.different aspirations for the future. But during this Parliament
:32:27. > :32:30.have come together because we were facing a unique national emergency
:32:31. > :32:34.back in 2010, the economy was teetering on the edge of a
:32:35. > :32:37.precipice. I'm immensely proud, notwithstanding our political
:32:38. > :32:40.challenges, which are real, I'm immensely proud that the Liberal
:32:41. > :32:42.Democrats, we stepped up to the plate, held our nerve and without
:32:43. > :32:46.the Liberal Democrats, there wouldn't now be that economic
:32:47. > :32:49.recovery which is helping many people across the country. Why
:32:50. > :32:57.aren't you getting any credit for it? Well, we won't get credit if we
:32:58. > :33:00.spend all our time staring at our navals. If it wasn't for the Liberal
:33:01. > :33:05.Democrats, there wouldn't be more jobs now available to people. They
:33:06. > :33:13.don't believe you, they are giving the Tories the credit for the
:33:14. > :33:17.recovery? Well, you might assert that, we will assert and I will
:33:18. > :33:22.shout it from the rooftops that if we had not created the stability by
:33:23. > :33:26.forming this Coalition Government and then hard-wired into the
:33:27. > :33:29.Government's plans, not only the gory job of fixing the public
:33:30. > :33:32.finances, but doing so much more fairly than would have been the
:33:33. > :33:36.case, if the Conservatives had been in Government on their own, they
:33:37. > :33:41.wouldn't have delivered these tax cuts. They wouldn't have delivered
:33:42. > :33:48.the triple lock guarantee for pensions or the pupil premium. OK.
:33:49. > :33:53.Why are you 8% in the polls? Well, because I think where we get our
:33:54. > :34:03.message across - and I am here in my own constituency - this is a
:34:04. > :34:08.constituency where I am a campaigning MP - we can dispel a lot
:34:09. > :34:12.of the information and say we have done a decent thing by going into
:34:13. > :34:16.Government and we have delivered big changes, big reforms which you can
:34:17. > :34:22.touch and see in your school, in your pensions, in your taxes and
:34:23. > :34:26.then people do support us and, in our areas of strength, we were
:34:27. > :34:29.winning against both the Conservative and Labour parties It
:34:30. > :34:33.is a big effort. Of course, there are lots of people from both left
:34:34. > :34:37.and right who want to shout us down and want to vilify our role in
:34:38. > :34:42.Government. What we also need to do - and Nick Harvey was quite right -
:34:43. > :34:47.having been proud of our record of delivery, we also need to set out in
:34:48. > :34:53.our manifesto as we are and as we will our promise of more, of more
:34:54. > :35:00.support in schools. So why is it then... Why is it then that a Lib
:35:01. > :35:05.Dem MP in our own film says you are in danger of no longer becoming a
:35:06. > :35:11.National Party. That could be the Clegg legacy, you cease to be a
:35:12. > :35:15.National Party? I'm a practical man. I believe passionately in what we
:35:16. > :35:18.have done in politics. I am so proud of my party. I don't spend that much
:35:19. > :35:22.time speculating that the end might be nigh. There is no point in doing
:35:23. > :35:28.that. Let's get out there, which is what I do in my own constituency, in
:35:29. > :35:31.challenges circumstances and say we are proud of what we have done, we
:35:32. > :35:33.have done a good thing for the country, we have delivered more
:35:34. > :35:38.Liberal Democrat policies than the party has ever dreamed delivering
:35:39. > :35:42.before. We have a programme of change, of reform, of liberal
:35:43. > :35:46.reform, which is very exciting. Just over the last few weeks, I have been
:35:47. > :35:50.setting out our plans to provide more help to carers, to make sure
:35:51. > :35:55.teachers in every classroom are properly qualified, that all kids in
:35:56. > :36:00.school are being taught a proper core curriculum. That parts company
:36:01. > :36:04.from the ideological rigidities with which the Conservatives deal with
:36:05. > :36:09.education policy. Those are thing which speak to many of the values
:36:10. > :36:15.that people who support us... Alright. When Mike Storey gets out
:36:16. > :36:22.and about, he told this programme two weeks' ago that he finds that
:36:23. > :36:27.you "are toxic on the doorstep" Look, as everybody knows, being the
:36:28. > :36:30.leader of a party, which for the first time in its history goes into
:36:31. > :36:35.Government, which is already a controversial thing to do because
:36:36. > :36:39.you are governing with our enemies, the Conservatives, and on top of
:36:40. > :36:42.that, doing all the difficult and unpopular things to fix the broken
:36:43. > :36:46.economy which was left to us by Labour, of course as leader of that
:36:47. > :36:50.party I get a lot of incoming fire from right and left. The right say
:36:51. > :36:53.that I'm stopping the Conservatives doing what they want. There is a
:36:54. > :36:58.good reason for that. They didn t win the election. The left say that
:36:59. > :37:02.somehow we have lost our soul when we haven't. That happens day in day
:37:03. > :37:07.out. Of course that will have some effect. My answer to that is not to
:37:08. > :37:14.buckle to those criticisms, those misplaced Chris -- criticisms from
:37:15. > :37:20.left and right, but to stand up proudly. Is it your intention to
:37:21. > :37:26.fight the next election against an in-out referendum on Europe? Yes.
:37:27. > :37:31.Unless there is major treaty change? Our position hasn't waivered, it
:37:32. > :37:34.won't waiver, we are not going to flip-flop on the issue of the
:37:35. > :37:38.referendum like the Conservatives did. We want an in-out referendum.
:37:39. > :37:41.With ve legislated for the trigger when that will happen, when in u
:37:42. > :37:45.powers are transferred to the European Union. That is what we have
:37:46. > :37:52.said for years. We legislated for that... So no change? No change
:37:53. > :37:55.Alright. We are expecting a reshuffle shortly. Will you keep
:37:56. > :38:02.Vince Cable as Business Secretary to the election? I'm immensely proud of
:38:03. > :38:08.what Vince has done. Yes, I intend to make sure that Vince continues to
:38:09. > :38:11.serve in the Government in his present capacity Look what he has
:38:12. > :38:15.done on apprenticeships, he's done more than many people for many years
:38:16. > :38:18.to make sure we build-up manufacturing, the north here, not
:38:19. > :38:24.just the south. I'm proud of what he's done. We have talked about some
:38:25. > :38:28.heavy things. We know you have got into kickboxing. Is there any danger
:38:29. > :38:34.of you becoming a mammal - you know what I mean - a middle-aged man in
:38:35. > :38:44.Lycra! Will the Tour de France influence you? Absolutely no risk of
:38:45. > :38:49.that whatsoever having seen the Tour de France start yesterday near
:38:50. > :38:54.Leeds. I have the yellow Yorkshire sign on my pullover. I will see them
:38:55. > :38:58.later whisk through my constituency. I will not try to emulate them. I'm
:38:59. > :39:02.sure that is to the relief of a grateful nation. Thank you.
:39:03. > :39:05.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:39:06. > :39:09.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:39:10. > :39:10.for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes,
:39:11. > :39:27.the Week Ahead. Hello,
:39:28. > :39:28.I'm Natalie Graham and this is the As East Sussex County Counchl begins
:39:29. > :39:34.consulting on cuts to bus sdrvices, we'll be asking the Councillor
:39:35. > :39:36.in charge whether this will leave Joining me
:39:37. > :39:40.in the studio today to disctss buses and boats are two new guests for us
:39:41. > :39:43.on the Sunday Politics South East. Lord Navnit Dholakia is
:39:44. > :39:45.Deputy Leader of the Liberal he lives in West Sussex,
:39:46. > :39:49.and Caroline Ansell has been selected to fight the seat
:39:50. > :39:51.of Eastbourne for the Conservatives Before our main discussions,
:39:52. > :39:59.I just wanted to get your vhew on the tricky and perennial issue
:40:00. > :40:02.of how to bridge the gulf When asked which professions
:40:03. > :40:05.the public most trust, our parliamentary represent`tives
:40:06. > :40:07.come low down on the list, often below estate agents and bankers no
:40:08. > :40:12.doubt down there with journ`lists. So could Nick Clegg's idea to hold
:40:13. > :40:15.Prime Minister's Questions live in a prime time TV slot,
:40:16. > :40:34.with questions submitted I think it is a brilliant idea
:40:35. > :40:40.because what we have is a j`mboree of people getting together, shouting
:40:41. > :40:46.each other down. Rather than taking them to account, all the Getty s
:40:47. > :40:53.allegations against each political party. It may make a good tdlevision
:40:54. > :41:00.show but it doesn't get the information. We have to get back to
:41:01. > :41:06.the political system and thdn it will be better. The House of Lords
:41:07. > :41:11.is an exciting place becausd question Time is for seeking
:41:12. > :41:21.information. Quite often bedn ministers are being questioned on
:41:22. > :41:32.various issues. It is very luch in terms of intelligent people and and
:41:33. > :41:41.we are satisfied with the rdsponse that we get. This does not happen in
:41:42. > :41:49.the Commons. Nick Clegg is puoted as saying this will put an end to the
:41:50. > :41:58.chest beating shouting match of PMQs. What do you think abott it,
:41:59. > :42:04.Caroline? With TV on demand, I am not sure prime time attracts a
:42:05. > :42:10.family gathering around the television and I can't imaghne Prime
:42:11. > :42:20.Minister 's questions competing with Doctor Who. I host an event in one
:42:21. > :42:27.of my local pubs where we do gather and watch the debate and exchange
:42:28. > :42:37.and some of the commentary `fter. We talk through some of the issues of
:42:38. > :42:44.the day. It is a good way for people to come together and talk. Those
:42:45. > :42:50.aggressive debates in the Commons get more coverage than local council
:42:51. > :42:55.debates and indeed the Housd of Lords. Perhaps it is the
:42:56. > :43:02.antagonistic attitude that lakes it popular. Does it actually gdt the
:43:03. > :43:07.information? What is the legislation about? It is about getting
:43:08. > :43:13.information from the politician on our behalf. Will the public engage?
:43:14. > :43:19.They will when they realise sensible answers are coming. Everyond of us
:43:20. > :43:25.is affected by the decisions that Parliament takes. It is important to
:43:26. > :43:30.note the impact on those communities. Prime Minister 's
:43:31. > :43:37.questions, it is diverting `nd a good thing to follow. It is not
:43:38. > :43:38.representative of the good work of Parliament.
:43:39. > :43:40.Now, fishing is an important indtstry
:43:41. > :43:44.along the coast of Kent and Sussex, and one method used by many of the
:43:45. > :43:47.smaller boats that fish close to the coast is called drift net fhshing.
:43:48. > :43:50.The name speaks for itself ` a length of net is unravelled into the
:43:51. > :43:54.water and left to drift for an hour or so and the fish swim into it
:43:55. > :43:56.It's a traditional practice, but a proposal by the Europdan
:43:57. > :43:59.In a minute we'll be hearing from the European Commission, but
:44:00. > :44:02.first, Sara donned her lifejacket and went on board to speak to
:44:03. > :44:07.Driftnet fishing like this has been at the heart of our co`stal
:44:08. > :44:11.George worked off the coast of Ramsgate for 25 years.
:44:12. > :44:13.He is out with his boat almost daily like hundreds
:44:14. > :44:16.of other small`scale inshord fishermen around Kent and Stssex.
:44:17. > :44:18.But, European plans to ban driftnet fishing is threatening to ptt him
:44:19. > :44:23.It has taken my livelihood and a lot of other peoples'
:44:24. > :44:27.80% of our fishing is now done through driftnet, either surface
:44:28. > :44:31.Is there any reason for the EU to go ahead with a blanket ban?
:44:32. > :44:36.If they want to get rid of small boats, then go ahe`d with
:44:37. > :44:40.the ban but if they want to keep a friendly fishery, let us carry
:44:41. > :44:43.The south east has more driftnet fisherman than anywhere elsd
:44:44. > :44:52.For many, it provides a year`round income rather than being a seasonal
:44:53. > :44:56.With 182 vessels capturing 440 tonnes of fish a year, that is
:44:57. > :45:01.The European Commission wants to put an end to this style of fishing over
:45:02. > :45:05.concerns that mammals like dolphins, turtles and seals are getting caught
:45:06. > :45:13.Some conservationists call these nets walls of death.
:45:14. > :45:18.This is what can happen when larger fish and mammals accidentally stray
:45:19. > :45:25.It is already illegal to catch certain species like swordfhsh
:45:26. > :45:28.in these nets but UK conservation groups and the fishing industry
:45:29. > :45:31.argue that while drift nets are a problem in the Mediterranean, they
:45:32. > :45:35.are safe and environmentallx friendly to use in UK waters where
:45:36. > :45:45.many fisheries even have spdcial accreditation for sustainabhlity.
:45:46. > :45:47.It is a low impact fishery, very low carbon footprint
:45:48. > :45:51.and we catch what comes to ts and both species of cod, sole,
:45:52. > :45:55.bass, skate and herring and mackrel at certain times of the year.
:45:56. > :45:58.Take this fishery away from us and all it will do is imposd
:45:59. > :46:08.Politicians are backing the fishermen.
:46:09. > :46:12.In Westminster, the Fisheries Minister says
:46:13. > :46:14.the European Commission oncd a one size fits all solution
:46:15. > :46:18.and is calling for negotiathons to rethink plans to prohibit the use
:46:19. > :46:25.We think an outright ban is the wrong approach.
:46:26. > :46:28.Perhaps where localised bans in areas where the evidence
:46:29. > :46:34.Particularly in the Mediterranean where it is a problem with tuna
:46:35. > :46:38.However, what we will be ailing to do is get our license
:46:39. > :46:43.and say we should have an ottright ban across the European Union.
:46:44. > :46:50.We will be making the case in the months ahead.
:46:51. > :46:52.Back on the boat and there is no fish today.
:46:53. > :46:57.Emphasising the unpredictabhlity of life as a fisherman.
:46:58. > :47:01.This ban, which could come hnto force next January, is seen as more
:47:02. > :47:04.bad news for UK fishing fledts, already hit by tight EU quotas
:47:05. > :47:14.So, can Britain's fishing industry afford to take another
:47:15. > :47:16.blow or will it be enough to sink those traditional fishdrmen
:47:17. > :47:27.Joining us now from Brussels is Helena, the official spokeslan
:47:28. > :47:30.for the EU Commissioner in charge of fisheries who have
:47:31. > :47:37.We have heard from the Brithsh minister saying he feels thhs is
:47:38. > :47:38.the wrong approach, it is disproportionate.
:47:39. > :47:43.Why are you proposing such a widespread ban?
:47:44. > :47:47.It is the beginning of a long process
:47:48. > :47:53.of debate that we are seeing now and we are very much welcomhng this
:47:54. > :48:02.It is a proposal that aims to protect sea
:48:03. > :48:06.mammals, turtles and seabirds which are still caught in those ndts.
:48:07. > :48:09.We have evidence about this because they are living
:48:10. > :48:15.so closely to the surface of the water where they need to brdathe.
:48:16. > :48:18.That is in other parts of the EU and not in the UK.
:48:19. > :48:21.We have heard from our small fishing industry which says it
:48:22. > :48:24.They are being punished for the actions
:48:25. > :48:30.This proposal doesn't come out of the blue.
:48:31. > :48:34.We have based it on scientific studies that have looked at the use
:48:35. > :48:41.We have asked stakeholders, local authorities,
:48:42. > :48:49.to give us information about the use of the drift nets in their waters.
:48:50. > :48:58.Other input is coming in now and the evidence that we had from this
:48:59. > :49:02.input was first of all that there are incidents with drift nets where
:49:03. > :49:07.mammals are being caught, that some national authorities have problems
:49:08. > :49:10.to enforce it because these mammals are protected under European law.
:49:11. > :49:12.Looking at your consultation process,
:49:13. > :49:16.you had 40 responses from the whole of the EU and only one from the UK.
:49:17. > :49:21.Are you happy with the level of response you have had?
:49:22. > :49:28.We are not happy with the ldvel of responses we have because 40 is not
:49:29. > :49:32.a lot but this is a proposal that we are putting out now and if we didn't
:49:33. > :49:35.get the input at the time of the consultation and if we are getting
:49:36. > :49:48.The evidence that we have received is that drift nets
:49:49. > :49:55.That doesn't apply in the UK and the fisheries industry here are
:49:56. > :50:02.Your Commissioner says she hs keen to have a less centralised `pproach,
:50:03. > :50:09.a less broad approach but this seems to contradict that.
:50:10. > :50:17.We think it should be done lore at regional level.
:50:18. > :50:19.This is also why, again, we are still in listening mode.
:50:20. > :50:24.We need this input from the fishermen now
:50:25. > :50:31.The ball is in the court of the EU ministers, the EU Parliament to find
:50:32. > :50:34.a compromise here and to find the right policx
:50:35. > :50:38.approach that is adapted to the situation on the ground.
:50:39. > :50:53.Thank you very much indeed for joining us.
:50:54. > :51:11.They are obviously appearing to listen. A ban would hit the
:51:12. > :51:29.Eastbourne fishermen hard. This is about imposing rules on states that
:51:30. > :51:33.gives Europe a bad name and that plays into the hands of the
:51:34. > :51:38.Conservative Party. What is important is there is a gendral
:51:39. > :51:48.expectation that there will be an agenda on the basis with whhch this
:51:49. > :51:55.discussion will take place. This is when the Prime Minister camd back
:51:56. > :52:02.last week. What is important to bear in mind is the environmental impact
:52:03. > :52:10.of driftnet fishing. There should be a concern about the birdlifd and
:52:11. > :52:19.turtles. The point I want to make is we stick to the rules that they lay
:52:20. > :52:25.out. In the Mediterranean countries, they swipe away anything thdy can
:52:26. > :52:29.get from the Mediterranean Sea and I don't think they are being
:52:30. > :52:35.questioned to the extent th`t they should be. Why doesn't the
:52:36. > :52:42.commissioners say this is a member state issue? We have a very
:52:43. > :52:50.different industry here with the small vessels. What we should be
:52:51. > :52:56.saying is we should find out precisely the impact of what is
:52:57. > :53:04.happening. It is less in thhs country. It is right and proper that
:53:05. > :53:09.there is a proper consultathon but there is an impact analysis which is
:53:10. > :53:16.available to the EU. There hs not a single way in which they trdat every
:53:17. > :53:20.country. They have done an hmpact assessment. They found at a national
:53:21. > :53:22.level it would be irrelevant. That statistic was jaw`dropping. They
:53:23. > :53:26.have had 40 responses and only one from the UK. Should we be
:53:27. > :53:29.encouraging more with Brussdls? It is a miserable result and not a
:53:30. > :53:33.sound basis for proceeding with this choice. To prohibit across the
:53:34. > :53:37.country and the fleets across the EU waters is the option of chohce. Of
:53:38. > :53:47.the small boats, it will hit many and the livelihoods will be on the
:53:48. > :53:56.line. In that respect, why the blanket ban? The rules are `lready
:53:57. > :54:02.there. In 2002, they actually banned driftnet fishing. What is ilportant
:54:03. > :54:08.is how they are looking at this We should look at the real imp`ct and
:54:09. > :54:13.the point on this one is thd minister is right, if they cannot do
:54:14. > :54:21.that consultation, other differ `` other departments should be
:54:22. > :54:24.involved. It was distressing to see the dolphins and sharks there. We
:54:25. > :54:27.will have to move on. When the cabinet of
:54:28. > :54:29.East Sussex County Council let this week, on the agenda was a sdt
:54:30. > :54:32.of proposals which would cut back The Council says the changes could
:54:33. > :54:37.save ?1.8 million over two xears, but critics, including the Lib Dem
:54:38. > :54:39.MP for Lewes and Government Minister The slash
:54:40. > :54:45.and burn approach to bus services in my constituency and elsewhere
:54:46. > :54:47.in East Sussex is unacceptable. The idea that we can have vhllagers
:54:48. > :54:50.where the daily bus service of regular frequency cut
:54:51. > :54:53.down to two days a week with no Saturday service, leaves people
:54:54. > :54:56.without access to public tr`nsport Well, the man in charge of those
:54:57. > :55:02.proposals is Councillor Carl You say this will affect
:55:03. > :55:07.a minority of passengers but it s a significant minority ` people
:55:08. > :55:09.in rural areas, often elderly, who depend on a daily service to get to
:55:10. > :55:27.the shops or medical appointments. Were these proposals to comd to
:55:28. > :55:33.pass, 91% of users will be unaffected by the proposals, 95 of
:55:34. > :55:41.current bus users would still be eligible for a bus six days a week.
:55:42. > :55:45.That minority is a signific`ntly vulnerable minority and that is the
:55:46. > :55:48.argument Norman Baker was m`king. We have to look at the approach of
:55:49. > :55:55.value for money for the Council There are buses trundling through
:55:56. > :55:59.villages. They will go down to twice a week in some villages whereas now
:56:00. > :56:09.they have a good daily servhce. These aren't commercially vhable
:56:10. > :56:17.companies `` roots. In terms of those subsidised routes, we have
:56:18. > :56:21.done a priority analysis. Enabling people to access services two days a
:56:22. > :56:26.week, enabling people to get to work six days a week and we have looked
:56:27. > :56:31.at school children accessing their closest school. We have dond that
:56:32. > :56:35.with a reference group. The others can just be abandoned and not go
:56:36. > :56:45.anywhere if they haven't got a car. East Sussex has a bad transport
:56:46. > :56:50.network, the trains are overcrowded and the roads are always full. We
:56:51. > :56:58.are talking about a very sm`ll number of people. Why should they
:56:59. > :57:03.suffer? As Norman Baker will be aware, in terms of the publhc
:57:04. > :57:08.finances, we know as a county council we have got to save in
:57:09. > :57:11.excess of ?100 million and `t the moment we will still be offdring
:57:12. > :57:17.services to the majority of residents with a small numbdr of
:57:18. > :57:20.people affected. You have bden in local government but they h`ve
:57:21. > :57:25.difficult choices to make thanks to the coalition. We have had cuts to
:57:26. > :57:32.adult social care, Children's Services and they have diffhcult
:57:33. > :57:36.choices to make. The chairm`n of the Local Government Association only
:57:37. > :57:39.this week made an announcemdnt that the entire finances of local
:57:40. > :57:47.government has to be looked at. There is far too much interference
:57:48. > :57:53.from central government. Thd point I am making is do not underestimate
:57:54. > :57:56.roll buses stop the way thex are stripping some of the social
:57:57. > :58:06.structures in our villages, the community halls are disappe`ring. I
:58:07. > :58:12.was stuck in a time of the floods. The most difficult part was to see
:58:13. > :58:17.elderly people surrounded and could not go to their nearest shopping
:58:18. > :58:23.Centre seven miles away. I say to them, work out the impact you are
:58:24. > :58:26.causing on our community. London and the big towns are not the cdntre of
:58:27. > :58:33.the universe and others havd the right to survive and create a
:58:34. > :58:38.community spirit. Caroline, you have a fight on your hand in East Sussex.
:58:39. > :58:43.It doesn't help when you're friends at County Hall on making thdse cuts.
:58:44. > :58:47.What we are talking about is reducing subsidy. These are private
:58:48. > :58:55.operators. They are also putting prices up on some routes. It is
:58:56. > :58:59.important to look at that also. Look at the support we sub `` provide for
:59:00. > :59:05.vulnerable older people. Thdy shouldn't be cutting subsidhes to
:59:06. > :59:13.these bus services. Difficult decisions are never made lightly. We
:59:14. > :59:17.are still dealing here with that legacy of debt left by Labotr.
:59:18. > :59:24.Should we be spending money we don't have? Let us come back to that
:59:25. > :59:29.minority. The consultation hs about to begin. There is scepticism about
:59:30. > :59:35.consultation and the fact that you will affect a minority of elderly
:59:36. > :59:40.residents. If they are the ones that respond, you will turn round and
:59:41. > :59:46.say, "look, not many people replied. ". It is a 12 week
:59:47. > :59:55.consultation and we welcome people's views. The other thing we
:59:56. > :59:58.will be doing is there will be those subsidised routes that are
:59:59. > :00:02.commercially viable. It may not be as bleak a picture as perhaps you
:00:03. > :00:05.are putting forward. We will have to see.
:00:06. > :00:07.That consultation on those proposed changes opens tomorrow
:00:08. > :00:09.You can have your say by writing to East Sussex County
:00:10. > :00:15.And now for a round`up of the other political events that
:00:16. > :00:22.you might have missed this week with James Fitzgerald.
:00:23. > :00:25.Budget cuts will be ongoing at Sussex police where 300 jobs have
:00:26. > :00:30.The force could be looking `t the same again over the next five, says
:00:31. > :00:36.We will need to find a diffdrent way of delivering the same level
:00:37. > :00:41.Laura Sands and Roger Gale `re pushing for a Commons enquiry
:00:42. > :00:44.into the role of smaller airports focusing on the recently closed
:00:45. > :00:47.Manston where infrastructurd is up for auction including boardhng steps
:00:48. > :00:54.The Hove and Portslade MP, Like Weatherley, noted for introducing
:00:55. > :00:58.rock 'n' roll to the house has said he will not stand for re`eldction.
:00:59. > :01:01.He said beating cancer had left him to review his future plans.
:01:02. > :01:04.And undeterred by a failed bid to raise cotncil tax
:01:05. > :01:07.by 4.75% this year, the Gredns on Brighton council have a new plan
:01:08. > :01:17.We faced due to cuts a ?25 million gap in our budget
:01:18. > :01:43.Navnit, used to be on policd Council.
:01:44. > :01:52.There is no way she can achheve the targets unless the services are cut.
:01:53. > :01:59.The money for the criteria when the services are cut, he has to work
:02:00. > :02:02.hard. Caroline. On having to make cuts, crime is falling.
:02:03. > :02:05.That's all we've got time for from the South East this wedk.
:02:06. > :02:08.My thanks to our guests, Lord Dholakia and Caroline @nsell.
:02:09. > :02:11.Julia will be here again next week with more politics from the
:02:12. > :02:17.progress in London was being made before that started. I wish we had
:02:18. > :02:20.longer for that. It is all over to you.
:02:21. > :02:23.What will Thursday's mass public sector strike achieve?
:02:24. > :02:25.Has David Cameron's anti-Juncker attacks clawed back support
:02:26. > :02:29.And is Alan Johnson really thinking about challenging Ed Miliband
:02:30. > :02:49.We will start with the strikes, Matt Hancock was hardline in the
:02:50. > :02:54.head-to-head that he did with the TUC. I guess that the Tory internal
:02:55. > :02:59.polling and focus groups must be telling them that there are votes in
:03:00. > :03:07.taking a tough line? There is that and there is the fact that they are
:03:08. > :03:12.now much more confident on any economic policy two or three years
:03:13. > :03:16.ago. They shied away from it because the economy was shrinking, there was
:03:17. > :03:20.still a danger that public sector job losses would lead to higher
:03:21. > :03:25.unemployment overall. Now, the economy is growing, they have a good
:03:26. > :03:30.story to sell about employment so they are much more bolshy and brazen
:03:31. > :03:35.than they were two or three years ago. They know that it always causes
:03:36. > :03:41.problems for Labour. Labour is naturally sympathetic to the public
:03:42. > :03:45.sector workers, pay being squeezed, they are striking to make an issue
:03:46. > :03:51.of it. And yet they can't quite come out and give the unions 100% Labour
:03:52. > :03:54.support? Exactly. You saw Tristram Hunt on the Marr Show this morning
:03:55. > :03:57.squirming to support the idea of strikes, but not this particular
:03:58. > :04:01.strike. It was always the question that gets asked to Labour - who
:04:02. > :04:05.funds you? That is a real problem. The bit that gets me is they trail
:04:06. > :04:10.this ef are I time there is a - every time there is a strike, this
:04:11. > :04:14.idea of cutting it to ballots and local election turnout was a third.
:04:15. > :04:18.Boris Johnson was elected Mayor of London with 38% turnout. We need to
:04:19. > :04:27.talk about-turnout across our democracy. That is an easy rebuttal
:04:28. > :04:30.for Labour to make. Matt Hancock was hardline about changing the strike
:04:31. > :04:34.law. When you asked him the question, if you are not going to
:04:35. > :04:39.stabilise the public finances till 2018, does this mean the pay freeze
:04:40. > :04:43.or no real term pay increase in the public sector will increase till
:04:44. > :04:49.2018, h e was inner vous on that one. -- he was nervous on that one.
:04:50. > :04:54.This strike is different to those strikes that took place in 2010 At
:04:55. > :04:58.that time, the TUC and the Labour Leadership thought there was going
:04:59. > :05:03.to be a great movement out there, not a kind of 1926 movement, but a
:05:04. > :05:10.great movement out there. This time round, I think the climate is
:05:11. > :05:14.different. Ed Miliband talking about wage increases being outstripped by
:05:15. > :05:18.inflation and people not seeing the recovery coming through into their
:05:19. > :05:25.pay packets. Slightly more tricky territory for the Tories. If The
:05:26. > :05:31.Labour machine cannot make something out of Matt Hancock telling this
:05:32. > :05:36.programme there will be no increase in pay for workers in the public
:05:37. > :05:39.sector till 2018, they have a problem? They do have a problem
:05:40. > :05:43.They have to say always that they would not just turn the money taps
:05:44. > :05:48.on. That is the dance that you are locked in all the time. Can we all
:05:49. > :05:55.agree that Alan Johnson is not going to stand against Ed Miliband this
:05:56. > :05:59.side of the election? Some politicians are cynical enough. I
:06:00. > :06:04.don't think Alan Johnson is one Do we agree? There is nothing in it for
:06:05. > :06:09.Labour and certainly not for Alan Johnson. No way. It is the last
:06:10. > :06:14.thing he would want to do. There are some desperate members going around
:06:15. > :06:17.trying to find a stalking horse Alan Johnson will not be their man.
:06:18. > :06:23.He has more important things to do on a Thursday night on BBC One!
:06:24. > :06:27.Isn't it something about the febrile state of the Labour Party that
:06:28. > :06:32.Labour, some Labour backbenchers or in the Shadow Cabinet, can float the
:06:33. > :06:36.idea of this nonsense? If there was a time to do it, maybe it was in the
:06:37. > :06:40.middle of the Parliament. With ten months left, you are stuck with the
:06:41. > :06:47.leader you chose in 2010. I remember them failing to understand this in
:06:48. > :06:51.January of 2010 when there was that last push against Gordon Brown. Five
:06:52. > :07:04.months before an election, they were trying to do something. The deputy
:07:05. > :07:07.Leader of the Labour Party had something to do with it. There is
:07:08. > :07:17.deep unease about Ed Miliband. There are problems but Alan Johnson is not
:07:18. > :07:20.the man. I think there is no chance of it!
:07:21. > :07:22.If the most recent polls are to be believed, David Cameron appears to
:07:23. > :07:26.have enjoyed a 'Juncker bounce' - clawing back some support from UKIP
:07:27. > :07:29.after he very publicly opposed the appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker
:07:30. > :07:32.to the post of EU Commission president. Last week Nigel Farage
:07:33. > :07:35.took his newly enlarged UKIP contingent to Strasbourg
:07:36. > :07:49.for the first session of the new European Parliament.
:07:50. > :07:57.These two gentlemen have nothing to say today. It was the usual dull,
:07:58. > :08:01.looking back to a model invented 50 years ago and we are the ones that
:08:02. > :08:05.want democracy, we are the ones that want nation state, we are the ones
:08:06. > :08:13.that want a global future for our countries, not to be trapped inside
:08:14. > :08:15.this museum. Thank you. I can see we will be covering more of the
:08:16. > :08:21.European Parliament at last! It's rumoured he's likely to stand
:08:22. > :08:24.in the next general election in the Kent constituency of Thanet South,
:08:25. > :08:27.currently held by the Conservatives. Last week the Conservatives selected
:08:28. > :08:29.their candidate for the seat - Craig McKinlay -
:08:30. > :08:40.a former deputy leader of UKIP. Did you get the short straw, you
:08:41. > :08:43.have got a seat that Nigel Farage is probably going to fight? Not in the
:08:44. > :08:49.slightest. It is a seat that I know well. It is a seat that there's
:08:50. > :08:53.obvious euro scepticism there and my qualities are right for that seat.
:08:54. > :08:59.UKIP got some very good... What are your qualities? Deep-seated
:09:00. > :09:03.conservatism, I was a founder of UKIP, I wrote the script back in
:09:04. > :09:11.1992. My heart is Conservative values. They are best put out to the
:09:12. > :09:16.public by me in South Thanet. It would be ridiculous if Nigel chose
:09:17. > :09:19.that seat. We need a building block of people like myself to form a
:09:20. > :09:22.Government if we are going to have that referendum that is long
:09:23. > :09:27.overdue. I don't think he's got the luxury of losing somebody who is
:09:28. > :09:32.very similar in views to him. He would be best look looking
:09:33. > :09:35.elsewhere. You wouldn't like him to stand in your seat, would you? It
:09:36. > :09:39.would seem to make very little sense. People would say what is UKIP
:09:40. > :09:44.all about if it's fighting people who have got a similar view to them?
:09:45. > :09:47.We do need to build a majority Government for the Conservatives
:09:48. > :09:51.next year because only us are offering that clear in-out
:09:52. > :09:56.referendum. I want to be one of those building blocks that is part
:09:57. > :10:00.of that renegotiation that we will put to public in a referendum.
:10:01. > :10:11.Sounds to me like if the choice is between you and Nigel Farage next
:10:12. > :10:15.May in Thanet South, it is Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all The
:10:16. > :10:19.danger to this country is another Labour Government. That is one of
:10:20. > :10:23.the main reasons that I left UKIP in 2005 because that last five years of
:10:24. > :10:27.the Labour Government was the most dangerous to the fundamentals of
:10:28. > :10:37.Britain that we have ever seen. I'm happy with the Conservatives. I have
:10:38. > :10:44.full Conservative values. I am a Euro-sceptic. Thank you for joining
:10:45. > :10:52.us. The Westminster bubble yet again, which has a herd mentality, a
:10:53. > :10:58.bubble with a herd mentality, it got it wrong yet again. Mr Cameron's
:10:59. > :11:03.isolated, he is useless at diplomacy, all of which may be true,
:11:04. > :11:07.but the British people liked it and his backbenchers liked it? True
:11:08. > :11:11.Although some of us would say it is possible... You are speaking for the
:11:12. > :11:15.bubble? I'm speaking for my segment of the bubble. Some of us argued
:11:16. > :11:28.that he got it wrong diplomatically and it would be wrong politically.
:11:29. > :11:33.It will be the passage of time. We saw UKIP decline between the 20 4
:11:34. > :11:38.European elections and the 2005 General. You would expect something
:11:39. > :11:42.similar to happen this time round. The question is how far low do they
:11:43. > :11:47.fall? They are still registering 12-15% in the opinion polls. They
:11:48. > :11:51.are. When Mr Cameron wielded his veto which again the Westminster
:11:52. > :11:55.bubble said it's terrible, it is embarrassing, he overtook Labour in
:11:56. > :12:00.the polls for a while doing that. He's had a Juncker bounce. If you
:12:01. > :12:04.were a strategist, would you not conclude the more Euro-sceptic I am,
:12:05. > :12:15.the better it is for me in the polls? In the short-term, yes. This
:12:16. > :12:20.is the short-term thinking we are supposed to despise. The electricion
:12:21. > :12:23.is very clever for a different - the selection is very clever for a
:12:24. > :12:28.different reason. It is this anti-London feeling in Thanet South.
:12:29. > :12:31.He is a councillor, he grew up in the constituency. He is a chartered
:12:32. > :12:36.accountant. He is somebody who can be seen to be a champion of local
:12:37. > :12:40.people. If they had parachuted in a special adviser, they would be in
:12:41. > :12:43.real trouble. He wants to get out... This is the third representative of
:12:44. > :12:46.the bubble? He wants to get out of the European Union which David
:12:47. > :12:52.Cameron doesn't want to do. It was interesting for that statement to
:12:53. > :12:55.MPs on Monday, there were mild Euro-sceptics who said, "I can't
:12:56. > :13:01.take this." The Speaker said can the baying mob, the Conservative MPs,
:13:02. > :13:06.quieten down, please. Ben Bradshaw, the former Minister made it, he
:13:07. > :13:13.said, "I'm reminded when the leader of the Labour Party before Harold
:13:14. > :13:17.Wilson made that famous Euro-sceptic speech and Mrs Gaitskell said
:13:18. > :13:20.darling, the wrong people are cheering." That is the challenge.
:13:21. > :13:23.Thank you, bubbles! The Daily Politics is back
:13:24. > :13:27.at its usual Noon time every day And I'll be back here on BBC One
:13:28. > :13:32.next Sunday at 11pm for the last Sunday Politics of the summer - I'll
:13:33. > :13:37.be talking to Scotland's Deputy Remember, if it's Sunday,
:13:38. > :13:45.it's the Sunday Politics.