:00:08. > :00:12.Good morning from Manchester, where the Labour Party are gathering
:00:13. > :00:14.for their annual conference as British politics adjusts to what
:00:15. > :00:53.the rest of the UK. in Scotland might mean for
:00:54. > :00:58.Scotland's decision to vote 'no means more powers heading north
:00:59. > :01:06.But what about Home Rule for England?
:01:07. > :01:11.Independence for Scotland has been his life's work. Alex Salmond tells
:01:12. > :01:16.us why he is stepping down after losing Thursday's vote. And we've
:01:17. > :01:27.Also coming up: people who want to be
:01:28. > :01:31.Also coming up: As these gods are promised lore of a
:01:32. > :01:32.say over their lives, 400 mhles of those, we ask
:01:33. > :01:47.But what is the next devolution step for the capital? With me, the best
:01:48. > :01:51.and brightest political panel in the business, at least that is what they
:01:52. > :01:54.pay me to say every week. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and, this week, we have
:01:55. > :02:01.done some devolution ourselves to other areas, and we have Sam Coates
:02:02. > :02:05.from the times. The union survived, but only at the cost of more powers
:02:06. > :02:08.for the Scottish parliament and enshrining the formula that gives
:02:09. > :02:13.Scotland a privileged position when it comes to public spending, which
:02:14. > :02:20.has MPs on both sides of the Commons of in arms. The Scottish question
:02:21. > :02:26.has been answered for now. Suddenly, the English question takes centre
:02:27. > :02:33.stage, doesn't it? Absolutely. It has a grubby feel, when that vow was
:02:34. > :02:36.put to the Scottish people, that they hoped would swing the vote
:02:37. > :02:43.there was nothing about English only votes. It was unconditional? The
:02:44. > :02:46.Tory proposal did talk very core justly about looking at the
:02:47. > :02:52.proposals by a former clerk of the House of Commons that looked at this
:02:53. > :02:58.issue. That was very cautious. - cautiously. These proposals will not
:02:59. > :03:01.get through Westminster unless David Cameron addresses the English-only
:03:02. > :03:05.issue. You look at people like Chris Grayling in the Sunday Telegraph.
:03:06. > :03:09.Alistair Darling on the Andrew Marr Show said you could not have a link
:03:10. > :03:11.between what you are giving Holyrood and English-only MPs. Back on says,
:03:12. > :03:27.is welshing on the deal. -- comic he They were furious that he gave away
:03:28. > :03:35.these tax powers and inscribed the Barnett formula. They said they
:03:36. > :03:38.weren't going to vote for it. It is a shameless piece of opportunism.
:03:39. > :03:41.Now they can say that Labour are the ones that don't trust you and don't
:03:42. > :03:47.want to give you more powers. He knows it is going to be a tight
:03:48. > :03:50.timetable. The idea of getting a draft of this out by Burns Night,
:03:51. > :03:54.most people would say, given they had six years to set up Scottish
:03:55. > :04:01.parliament, the idea we will solve these huge constitutional questions
:04:02. > :04:04.in four months is absurd. But they don't care about the constitutional
:04:05. > :04:10.questions, the one they care about is English votes? There is a simple
:04:11. > :04:14.reason they won that. If you look at the MPs in England alone, the Tories
:04:15. > :04:19.have a majority of 59, an overwhelming bias, and if you strip
:04:20. > :04:23.out Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland, so this has become a
:04:24. > :04:25.partisan issue. The question is whether David Cameron can follow
:04:26. > :04:32.through on the promise. He said he would link the two Scottish powers,
:04:33. > :04:37.but it's not clear you will get either before the general election.
:04:38. > :04:41.It's not but the purpose is to cause Labour Party discomfort, and it is.
:04:42. > :04:47.You can see with date -- Ed Miliband this morning, they find it very hard
:04:48. > :04:52.to answer the question, why shouldn't there be English votes for
:04:53. > :04:57.English laws? Ed Miliband this morning was saying how London MPs
:04:58. > :05:00.get to vote on London transport and English MPs don't outside of London
:05:01. > :05:05.and it is confusing, but Labour is in a difficult position. They were
:05:06. > :05:09.before the Prime Minister made his announcement. The yes side triumphed
:05:10. > :05:12.in Glasgow, the largest city in Scotland, a Labour heartland, and
:05:13. > :05:16.the Prime Minister is saying that if Labour don't agree to this by the
:05:17. > :05:20.time of the general election, he is handing a gift to the SNP, that that
:05:21. > :05:25.would be the party that the natural Labour voters would vote for to see
:05:26. > :05:28.off the plan. It's not just Tory backbenchers. There are Labour
:05:29. > :05:31.backbenchers saying there should be in which bodes for English laws
:05:32. > :05:38.Even people in the Shadow Cabinet think it is right. The cases
:05:39. > :05:41.unarguable. If you say her chewing a partisan way, you can't sell it to
:05:42. > :05:45.the country. Ed Miliband is on course to have a majority of about
:05:46. > :05:51.20, and you take the 40 English MPs, and he hasn't got it. This is a
:05:52. > :05:56.coalition government where the Conservatives haven't got really to
:05:57. > :05:59.be in charge, they have put in sweeping laws. Labour should
:06:00. > :06:05.probably take the bullet on this one. Let's leave it for the moment.
:06:06. > :06:10.But don't go away. As they struggle to keep the United Kingdom in one
:06:11. > :06:13.piece, David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg promised to keep
:06:14. > :06:15.something called the Barnett Formula.
:06:16. > :06:18.It wasn't invented in Barnet, but by man called Joel Barnett.
:06:19. > :06:20.And it's how the UK government decides how much
:06:21. > :06:23.public money to spend in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
:06:24. > :06:25.It's controversial, because it's led to public spending
:06:26. > :06:27.being typically 20% higher in Scotland than in England.
:06:28. > :06:29.Well, some English MPs aren't happy about that.
:06:30. > :06:35.I'm joined now by the Tory MP Dominic Raab.
:06:36. > :06:43.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. How can the Prime Minister scrap the
:06:44. > :06:49.Barnett Formula when he has just about to keep it on the front page
:06:50. > :06:54.of a major Scottish newspaper? If we are going to see financial
:06:55. > :06:57.devolution to Scotland, more powers of tax and spend, it's impossible
:06:58. > :07:01.not to look at the impact on the wider union, and there have been
:07:02. > :07:04.promises made to the Scottish and we should do our best to deliver them,
:07:05. > :07:08.but there have been promises made to the English, Welsh and Northern
:07:09. > :07:11.Irish. If you look at the Barnett Formula which allocates revenue
:07:12. > :07:16.across the UK, it is massively prejudicial to those other parts. We
:07:17. > :07:20.have double the number of ambulance staff and nurses compared to
:07:21. > :07:23.England. The regional breakdown is more stark with double the amount
:07:24. > :07:27.spent on social housing in Scotland than in Yorkshire and the North West
:07:28. > :07:31.and the Midlands. The Welsh do very poorly on social services for the
:07:32. > :07:36.elderly. What are we saying? That they need our children, patients and
:07:37. > :07:42.the elderly are worth less than the Scots? That's not the way to have a
:07:43. > :07:46.sustainable solution. I understand the distribution impact of the
:07:47. > :07:50.Barnett Formula, but Westminster politicians are already held in
:07:51. > :07:56.contempt by a lot of people and to rat on such a public pledge would
:07:57. > :08:00.confirm their worst fears. Your leader would have secured the union
:08:01. > :08:05.on a false prospectus. First of all, it's clear from the Ashcroft
:08:06. > :08:08.poll that the offer made in the Scottish newspaper had zero effect
:08:09. > :08:11.and if anything was counter-productive to the overall
:08:12. > :08:16.result because two thirds of swing voters in the last few days voted
:08:17. > :08:20.for independence. But we can't keep proceeding without looking at the
:08:21. > :08:24.promises made to the English. We said in the referendum that we would
:08:25. > :08:28.have English laws -- English votes on English issues. The Liberal
:08:29. > :08:31.Democrats, in their manifesto, pledged to scrap the Barnett
:08:32. > :08:36.Formula. We have to reconcile all of the promises to all parts of the UK,
:08:37. > :08:41.and Alex Salmond talks about a Westminster stitch up, but what he's
:08:42. > :08:44.trying to do is, with gross double standards, is in French stitch up in
:08:45. > :08:53.rapid time, which would be grossly unfair to the rest of the rest of UK
:08:54. > :08:56.-- is contrive stitch up. What is unfair about the current spending
:08:57. > :09:05.formula? The extra money Scotland gets from Barnet, is covered by the
:09:06. > :09:07.oil revenues it sends to London Scotland is only getting back on
:09:08. > :09:10.spending what it pays in tax. There is no analysis out there that
:09:11. > :09:18.suggests it is the same amount. Having voted to stay in the UK. Let
:09:19. > :09:24.me give you the figures. Last year revenues were 4.5 billion, and the
:09:25. > :09:30.Barnett Formula was worth 4.5 billion to Scotland. It is awash. A
:09:31. > :09:34.huge amount of British taxpayer investment has gone into extracting
:09:35. > :09:37.North Sea oil, and if we move to a more federal system, we would need
:09:38. > :09:40.to look at things like the allocation of resources, but the
:09:41. > :09:46.Barnett Formula has been lambasted as a national embarrassment and
:09:47. > :09:50.grossly unfair by its Labour Party architect, Lord Barnett. So what we
:09:51. > :09:55.need is to change this mechanism so it is based on need. The irony is,
:09:56. > :09:58.when the Scots allocate Avenue to the -- revenue to their local
:09:59. > :10:01.authorities, it's done on a needs basis, and what is good for Scotland
:10:02. > :10:07.must be good for the rest of Britain. One final question. The
:10:08. > :10:11.Prime Minister is now making his promise of more home rule for
:10:12. > :10:14.Scotland conditional on English votes for English laws. Why didn't
:10:15. > :10:18.he spell out the condition when he made his bow to the Scottish people?
:10:19. > :10:22.Why has this condition been tacked on by the Prime Minister? In the
:10:23. > :10:28.heat of the referendum debate lots of things were said, but the truth
:10:29. > :10:34.is that Parliament must also look at this and make its views known, and
:10:35. > :10:37.English MPs as well. You will find that conservative as well as a lot
:10:38. > :10:42.of Labour MPs would say, we cannot just rush through a deal that is
:10:43. > :10:46.unsustainable. It has to be good for all parts of Britain. Yes, we should
:10:47. > :10:49.deliver on our promises for more devolution to Scotland, but let s
:10:50. > :10:54.deliver on promises to be English, and Northern Irish. Why are they
:10:55. > :10:55.locked out of the debate? Let's leave it there. Thank you for
:10:56. > :10:57.joining us. The man responsible
:10:58. > :11:00.for taking Scottish nationalism from the political fringes to within
:11:01. > :11:02.touching distance of victory, Alex Salmond, has a flair for dramatic
:11:03. > :11:05.announcements, and he gave us another on Friday
:11:06. > :11:07.when he revealed he's to stand Friends and foes have paid tribute
:11:08. > :11:11.to his extraordinary career. In a moment I'll be speaking to
:11:12. > :11:14.Alex Salmond, but first here's Adam Fleming with
:11:15. > :11:37.the story of the vote that broke The BBC's HQ on the Clyde, the whole
:11:38. > :11:40.place converted into a studio for Scotland's big night. You know what
:11:41. > :11:44.you need for big events, big screens, and there are loads of them
:11:45. > :11:48.here. That one is three stories high, and this is the one Jeremy
:11:49. > :11:51.Vine uses for his graphics. The other thing that is massive is the
:11:52. > :11:57.turnout in the referendum, it is enormous. It was around 85% of the
:11:58. > :12:08.electorate, that is 4 million ballot papers. First to declare
:12:09. > :12:15.Clackmannanshire. No, 19,000. 1 ,000 and 36. The first Noel of the night,
:12:16. > :12:19.and there were plenty more. -- the first no vote. The better together
:12:20. > :12:25.campaigners were over the moon, like Jim Murphy, who had campaigned in
:12:26. > :12:28.100 different towns. I don't want to sound schmaltzy, but it makes you
:12:29. > :12:38.think more of Scotland. It makes you small tree. Yes, 194,779. Around
:12:39. > :12:43.five a.m., the Yes campaign applauded as they won Scotland's
:12:44. > :12:47.biggest city, Glasgow. Dundee went their way as well, but just for
:12:48. > :12:52.areas out of 32 opted for independence. How many copies have
:12:53. > :12:55.you had? This is my second cup of tea on the morning -- how many
:12:56. > :12:59.copies. He was enjoying the refreshments on offer, but the yes
:13:00. > :13:05.campaigners were not in a happy place. We are in the bowels of one
:13:06. > :13:10.of the parts of the British establishment that, I've got to say,
:13:11. > :13:15.has probably done its job in this referendum, because I think the BBC
:13:16. > :13:20.has been critical in shoring up the establishment and have supported the
:13:21. > :13:24.no campaign as best as they could. But there was no arguing with the
:13:25. > :13:31.numbers, and by sunrise, the BBC called it. Scotland has voted no in
:13:32. > :13:35.this referendum on independence The result, in Fife, has taken the no
:13:36. > :13:41.campaign over the line and the official result of this referendum
:13:42. > :13:46.is a no. There we go, on a screen three stories high, Scotland has
:13:47. > :13:50.said no to independence. As soon as the newsprint was driving north of
:13:51. > :13:54.the border, the focus shifted south as the Prime Minister pledged more
:13:55. > :13:58.devolution for Scotland but only if it happened everywhere else as well.
:13:59. > :14:01.Just as Scotland will vote separately in the Scottish
:14:02. > :14:06.Parliament on their issues of tax, spending on welfare, so to England,
:14:07. > :14:09.as well as Wales and Northern Ireland, should be able to vote on
:14:10. > :14:16.these issues, and all this must take place in tandem with and at the same
:14:17. > :14:21.pace as the settlement for Scotland. It began to dawn on us all that we
:14:22. > :14:28.might end up doing this again. See you for an English referendum soon?
:14:29. > :14:35.Northern Ireland. There could be another one in Scotland. But not
:14:36. > :14:39.next weekend? Give me a break. There was no break for Nick, because Alex
:14:40. > :14:45.Salmond came up with one last twist, his resignation was as leader, my
:14:46. > :14:53.time is nearly over. But the Scotland, the campaign continues,
:14:54. > :14:56.and the dream shall never die. So, the referendum settled, the
:14:57. > :15:02.Constitution in flux, and a leader gone. All in a night work.
:15:03. > :15:08.Alex Salmond is to stand down as First Minister of Scotland. He shows
:15:09. > :15:12.no signs of going quietly. Last night, I spoke to the SNP leader in
:15:13. > :15:19.Aberdeen and began by asking him if it was always his intention to
:15:20. > :15:22.resign if he lost the referendum. I certainly have thought about it
:15:23. > :15:27.Andrew. But for most of the referendum campaign I thought we
:15:28. > :15:31.were going to win. So, I was... Yeah, maybe a few months back I
:15:32. > :15:37.considered it. But I only finally made up my mind on Friday lunch
:15:38. > :15:46.time. Did you agonise over the decision to stand down? I'm not
:15:47. > :15:52.really an agonising person. When you get beaten in a referendum, you have
:15:53. > :15:58.to consider standing down as a real possibility. Taking responsibility
:15:59. > :16:02.and politics has gone out of fashion but there is an aspect, if you need
:16:03. > :16:06.a campaign, and I was the leader of the Yes Campaign, and you don't win,
:16:07. > :16:10.you have to contemplate if you are the best person to lead future
:16:11. > :16:15.political campaigns. In my judgement, it was time for the SNP
:16:16. > :16:19.and the broader yes movement, the National movement of Scotland, they
:16:20. > :16:23.would benefit from new leadership. In your heart of hearts, through the
:16:24. > :16:29.campaign, as referendum on day approached, you did think you were
:16:30. > :16:36.going to win? Yes, I did. I thought for most of the last month of the
:16:37. > :16:41.campaign, we were in with a real chance. In the last week I thought
:16:42. > :16:46.we had pulled ahead. I thought the decisive aspect wasn't so much the
:16:47. > :16:49.fear mongering, the scaremongering, the kitchen sink being thrown at
:16:50. > :16:53.Scotland by orchestration from Downing Street, I thought the real
:16:54. > :16:58.thing was the pledge, the vow, the offer of something else. A lot of
:16:59. > :17:02.people that had been moving across to independence saw within that a
:17:03. > :17:07.reason to say, well, we can get something anyway without the
:17:08. > :17:12.perceived risks that were being festooned upon them. You were only
:17:13. > :17:19.five points away from your dream. You won Scotland's largest city
:17:20. > :17:25.There is now the prospect of more power. Why not stay and be an
:17:26. > :17:31.enhanced First Minister? Well, it is a good phrase. I'm not going away,
:17:32. > :17:35.though. I'm still going to be part of the political process. In
:17:36. > :17:39.Scotland, if people in Aberdeenshire wish to keep electing me, that is
:17:40. > :17:44.what I will do. But I don't have to be First Minister of Scotland,
:17:45. > :17:49.leader of the Yes Campaign, to see that achieved. The SNP is a strong
:17:50. > :17:54.and powerful leadership team. There are a number of people that would do
:17:55. > :17:59.a fantastic job as leader of the party and First Minister. I've been
:18:00. > :18:04.leader of the party for the last 24 years, I think it is time to give
:18:05. > :18:07.somebody else a shot. There are many able-bodied people that will do that
:18:08. > :18:14.well. -- many able people that will do that well. I'm still part of the
:18:15. > :18:19.national movement, arguing to take this forward. I think you are right,
:18:20. > :18:22.the question, one of the irony is developing so quickly after the
:18:23. > :18:25.referendum, it might be those that lost on Thursday end up as the
:18:26. > :18:32.political winners and those that won end up as the losers. When we met
:18:33. > :18:35.just for the vote, a couple of days before the vote, you said to me that
:18:36. > :18:42.there was very little you would change about the campaign strategy.
:18:43. > :18:47.Is that still your view? Yes. There are one or two things, like any
:18:48. > :18:53.campaign, there is no such thing as a pitcher campaign. I would refer
:18:54. > :18:57.not to dwell on such things. I will leave of my book, which will be
:18:58. > :19:01.called 100 Days, coming out before Christmas. Once you read that, I
:19:02. > :19:05.will probably reveal the things I would have changed. Basically,
:19:06. > :19:10.broadly, this was an extraordinary campaign. Not just a political
:19:11. > :19:13.campaign, but a campaign involving the grassroots of Scotland in an
:19:14. > :19:18.energising, empowering way, the like of which in on of us have witnessed.
:19:19. > :19:23.It was an extraordinary phenomenon of grassroots campaigning, which
:19:24. > :19:30.carried the Yes Campaign so far almost to victory. If Rupert Murdoch
:19:31. > :19:39.put his Scottish Sun behind you would have that made the difference?
:19:40. > :19:46.If ifs and ands were pots and pans... Why did he not? I would not
:19:47. > :19:51.say that, you have form with him that I do not have. I'm not sure
:19:52. > :19:58.about that. I was very encouraged. The coverage, not in the other
:19:59. > :20:00.papers, The Times, which was extremely hostile to Scottish
:20:01. > :20:05.independence, but the coverage in the Scottish Sun was fair, balanced
:20:06. > :20:15.and we certainly got a very fair kick of the ball. In newspapers I
:20:16. > :20:18.would settle for no editorial line and just balanced coverage. We
:20:19. > :20:23.certainly got that from the Scottish Sun and that was an encouragement. I
:20:24. > :20:28.think you saw from his tweets, certainly in his heart he would have
:20:29. > :20:39.liked to have seen a move forward in Scotland and I like that. He said if
:20:40. > :20:43.you lost, that was it, referendum wise, for a generation, which he
:20:44. > :20:48.defined as about 20 years. Is that still your view? Yes, it is. It has
:20:49. > :20:53.always been my view. It's a personal view. There are always things that
:20:54. > :20:57.can change in politics. If the UK moved out of the European Union for
:20:58. > :21:01.example, that would be the sort of circumstance. Some people would
:21:02. > :21:06.argue with Westminster parties, and I'm actually not surprised that they
:21:07. > :21:11.are reneging on commitments, I am just surprised by the speed they are
:21:12. > :21:16.doing it. They seem to be totally shameless in these matters. You
:21:17. > :21:20.don't think they will meet the vow? You don't think there will keep to
:21:21. > :21:23.their vow? They are not, for that essential reason you saw developing
:21:24. > :21:28.on Friday. The Prime Minister wants to link change in Scotland to change
:21:29. > :21:32.in England. He wants to do that because he has difficulty in
:21:33. > :21:36.carrying his backbenchers on this and they are under pressure from
:21:37. > :21:39.UKIP. The Labour leadership are frightened of any changes in England
:21:40. > :21:44.which leave them without a majority in the House of Commons on English
:21:45. > :21:49.matters. I would not call it an irresistible force and immovable
:21:50. > :21:54.object, one is resistible and one is movable. They are at loggerheads.
:21:55. > :21:57.The vow, I think, was something cooked up in desperation for the
:21:58. > :22:03.last few days of the campaign. I think everybody in Scotland now
:22:04. > :22:08.engines that. -- recognises that. It was the people that were persuaded
:22:09. > :22:14.to vote no that word tricked, effectively. They are the ones that
:22:15. > :22:18.are really angry. Ed Miliband and David Cameron, if they are watching
:22:19. > :22:24.this, I would be more worried about the anger of the no voters than the
:22:25. > :22:30.opinion of the Yes Vote on that matter. If independence is on the
:22:31. > :22:38.back burner for now, what would you advise your successor's strategy for
:22:39. > :22:45.the SNP to be? I would advise him or her not to listen to advice from
:22:46. > :22:51.their predecessor. A new leader brings forward a new strategy. I
:22:52. > :22:55.think this is, for the SNP, a very favourable political time. There
:22:56. > :23:00.have been 5000 new members joined since Thursday. That is about a 25%
:23:01. > :23:05.increase in the party membership in the space of a few days. More than
:23:06. > :23:16.that, I think this is an opportunity for the SNP. But my goal is the
:23:17. > :23:20.opportunity for Scotland. I would repeat I am not retiring from
:23:21. > :23:26.politics. I'm standing down as First Minister of Scotland. On Friday
:23:27. > :23:32.coming back to the north-east of Scotland, I passed through Dundee,
:23:33. > :23:36.which voted yes by a stud -- substantial margin. There was a line
:23:37. > :23:41.of a song I couldn't get out of my head, and old Jacobite song,
:23:42. > :23:49.rewritten by Robert Burns, the last line is, so, tremble falls wakes, in
:23:50. > :23:56.the midst of your glee, you've not seen the last of my bonnets and me.
:23:57. > :24:00.So you are staying a member of the Scottish Parliament, shall we see
:24:01. > :24:07.you again in the House of Commons? What does the future hold for you?
:24:08. > :24:11.Membership of Scottish Parliament is dependent on the good folk of
:24:12. > :24:15.Aberdeenshire east. If they choose to elect me, I will be delighted to
:24:16. > :24:20.serve. I've always loved being a constituency member of Parliament, I
:24:21. > :24:24.have known some front line politicians that regarded that as a
:24:25. > :24:31.chore. I'm not saying they didn t do it properly, I am sure they did But
:24:32. > :24:33.I love it. You get distilled wisdom from being a constituency member of
:24:34. > :24:36.Parliament that helps you keep your feet on the ground and have a good
:24:37. > :24:40.observation as to what matters to people. I have no difficulty with
:24:41. > :24:51.being a constituent member of Parliament. Can you promise me it
:24:52. > :25:01.will never be Lord Salmond? Yes Thanks for joining us. Great
:25:02. > :25:05.pleasure, thank you. Now, the independence referendum is over the
:25:06. > :25:09.next big electoral test is a general election. It is just over seven
:25:10. > :25:15.months away. In a moment I will be talking to Chuka Umunna, but what
:25:16. > :25:20.are the political views of the men and women fighting to win seats for
:25:21. > :25:22.the Labour Party? The Sunday Politics has commissioned an
:25:23. > :25:28.exclusive survey of the Parliamentary candidates.
:25:29. > :25:31.Six out of seven Labour candidates say that the level of public
:25:32. > :25:35.spending during their last period of office was about right. 40% of them
:25:36. > :25:40.want a Labour government to raise taxes to reduce the budget deficit.
:25:41. > :25:44.18% favour cutting spending. On immigration, just 15% think that the
:25:45. > :25:50.number coming to Britain is too high. Only 7% say we generous to
:25:51. > :25:53.immigrants. Three in ten candidates believe the party relationship with
:25:54. > :25:57.trade unions is not close enough. Not that we spoke to think it is too
:25:58. > :26:03.close. Or than half of the candidates say want to scrap the
:26:04. > :26:08.nuclear deterrent, Trident. Four in five want to nationalise the
:26:09. > :26:16.railways. If they are after a change of leader, Yvette Cooper was their
:26:17. > :26:21.preferred choice. Chuka Umunna came in fourth. And he joins me now for
:26:22. > :26:28.the Sunday interview. Why is Labour choosing so many
:26:29. > :26:31.left-wing candidates? I don't think I accept the characterisation of
:26:32. > :26:35.candidates being left wing. I don't think your viewers see politics in
:26:36. > :26:39.terms of what is left and right I think they see it in terms of what
:26:40. > :26:43.is right and wrong. Obviously, many of the things we have been talking
:26:44. > :26:47.about, how we ensure that the next generation can do better than the
:26:48. > :26:51.last, how we raise the wages of your viewers, who are currently working
:26:52. > :26:54.very hard but not making a wage they can live off, that is what they are
:26:55. > :26:58.talking about and that is what the public will judge them on. But they
:26:59. > :27:01.want to raise taxes, they don't want to cut public spending, they want to
:27:02. > :27:05.re-nationalise the railways, they don't think there is too much
:27:06. > :27:08.immigration, they want to scrap Trident. These are all positions
:27:09. > :27:13.clearly to the left of current party policy. But that is your
:27:14. > :27:18.characterisation. If you look at our policy to increase the top rate of
:27:19. > :27:21.tax to 50% for people earning over ?150,000, that is a central
:27:22. > :27:27.position. It is something that enjoys the support of the majority
:27:28. > :27:32.of the public. Trident? If you talk to the British public about
:27:33. > :27:36.immigration, yes, there are concerns about the numbers coming in and out,
:27:37. > :27:39.yes people want to see integration, yes, people want to see people
:27:40. > :27:43.putting a contribution before they take out, the people recognise, if
:27:44. > :27:46.you look at our multicultural nation, we have derived a lot of
:27:47. > :27:50.benefits from immigration. I don't think your characterisation of those
:27:51. > :27:57.positions, that is your view... It's not, it is their view. They are
:27:58. > :28:02.saying... You describe it... You described those positions as left
:28:03. > :28:07.wing positions. I am saying to you that I actually think a lot of those
:28:08. > :28:11.positions are centrist positions that would enjoy the support of the
:28:12. > :28:15.majority of your viewers. I don t think your viewers think the idea of
:28:16. > :28:19.the broadest shoulders bearing the heaviest burden in forms of tax are
:28:20. > :28:25.going to see it as a way out, radical principle. They want to
:28:26. > :28:29.scrap Trident, not party policy It isn't.
:28:30. > :28:36.I think that 73... Well, we will have 400 Parliamentary candidates at
:28:37. > :28:42.the time of the next general election, not including current MPs.
:28:43. > :28:48.This is 73 out of over 400 of them. I think we also need to treat the
:28:49. > :28:52.survey with a bit of caution. They are not representative? You are
:28:53. > :28:55.basically quoting the results of a small percentage of our
:28:56. > :28:58.Parliamentary candidates. It's pretty safe to say when you look at
:28:59. > :29:04.their views, they might be right or wrong, that's not my point, it's
:29:05. > :29:11.fairly safe to say that new Labour is dead? Again, I don't think people
:29:12. > :29:15.see things in terms of gold -- old or new Labour. We are standing at a
:29:16. > :29:21.Labour Party. We are a great country, but we have big challenges.
:29:22. > :29:24.We want to make sure that people can achieve their dreams and aspirations
:29:25. > :29:27.in this country. Too many people are not in that position. Too many
:29:28. > :29:31.people worry about the prospects of their children. Too many people do
:29:32. > :29:35.not earn a wage they can live off. Too many people are worried about
:29:36. > :29:38.the change. We have to make sure we are giving people a stake in the
:29:39. > :29:42.future. That is a Labour thing, you want to call it old or new come I
:29:43. > :29:52.don't care. It's a choice between Labour and the Conservatives in
:29:53. > :29:54.terms of who runs the next government. That one of your
:29:55. > :29:57.candidate we spoke to things that the party's relationship with the
:29:58. > :30:01.unions is to close. 30% of them think it should be closer. You have
:30:02. > :30:07.spoken to 73 out of 400 candidates. Why should the others be any
:30:08. > :30:10.different? It's a fairly representative Sample. Many people
:30:11. > :30:14.working on this set are the member of the union, the National union of
:30:15. > :30:17.journalists. People that came here to this Conference would have been
:30:18. > :30:22.brought here by trade union members. Do you think the relationship should
:30:23. > :30:27.be closer? I think it is where it should be. It should not be closer?
:30:28. > :30:30.I think that trade unions help create wealth in our country. If you
:30:31. > :30:35.look at some other success stories we are in the north-west, GM
:30:36. > :30:39.Vauxhall is there because you have trade unions working in partnership
:30:40. > :30:44.with government and local employees to make sure we kept producing cars.
:30:45. > :30:49.I'm not asking if unions are good or bad, I'm asking if Labour should be
:30:50. > :30:56.closer. You are presupposing, by the tone of your question, that our
:30:57. > :31:00.relationship is a problem. Let's turn to the English question. Why do
:31:01. > :31:03.you need a constitutional conversation where you have to
:31:04. > :31:07.discuss whether English people voting on English matters is
:31:08. > :31:10.unfair? We want to give the regions and cities in England more voice,
:31:11. > :31:18.but let's get it into perspective, we have had a situation where the
:31:19. > :31:24.Scottish people, as desired buying rich people, have to remain part of
:31:25. > :31:28.the UK -- by English people. What is the answer to the question? I don't
:31:29. > :31:30.want to get to a situation where people have voted for solidarity
:31:31. > :31:36.where you have a prime ministers talking about dividing up the UK
:31:37. > :31:40.Parliament. Let me put this point you. Most Scottish voters think it
:31:41. > :31:44.is unfair that Scottish MPs get to vote on English matters. That comes
:31:45. > :31:50.out in Scottish polls. Why don't you see it as unfair? If the Scots see
:31:51. > :31:53.it as unfair, why don't you? This is an age-old conundrum that has been
:31:54. > :31:57.around for 100 years and it's not so simple. You're talking about making
:31:58. > :32:01.a fundamental change to the British constitution on a whim. It's not
:32:02. > :32:08.just an issue, in respect of Scottish MPs. As a London MP, I can
:32:09. > :32:12.vote on matters relating to the transport of England and transport
:32:13. > :32:16.is a devolved matter in London. In Wales, there are a number of
:32:17. > :32:20.competencies that Welsh MPs can vote on and they've been devolved to
:32:21. > :32:23.them. So with all of these different votes, you will exclude different
:32:24. > :32:27.MPs? I think the solution is not necessarily to obsess about what is
:32:28. > :32:31.happening between MPs in Westminster. That turns people
:32:32. > :32:34.politics. We need to devolve more. I think we should be giving the cities
:32:35. > :32:40.and regions of England more autonomy in the way that we are doing in
:32:41. > :32:43.Scotland, but I've got to say, Andrew, it's dishonourable and in
:32:44. > :32:48.bad faith for the Prime Minister to now seek to link what he agreed
:32:49. > :32:52.before the referendum to this issue of English votes for English MPs.
:32:53. > :32:56.That is totally dishonourable and in bad faith. You have promised to
:32:57. > :33:00.devolve more tax powers to Scotland. What would they be? This is being
:33:01. > :33:05.decided at the moment. I cannot give you the exact detail of what the tax
:33:06. > :33:08.powers would be. Could you give us a rough idea? There is a White Paper
:33:09. > :33:14.being produced before November and there will be draft legislation put
:33:15. > :33:18.forward in January. Your leader has vowed that this will happen. And you
:33:19. > :33:22.haven't got a policy? You can't tell us what the tax powers will be? I
:33:23. > :33:26.can't tell you on this programme right now. But we have accepted the
:33:27. > :33:30.principle on further devolution on tax, spending on welfare and we will
:33:31. > :33:33.have further details in due course. Your leader promised to maintain the
:33:34. > :33:38.Barnett Formula for the foreseeable future. Why is that fair when it
:33:39. > :33:43.enshrines more per capita spending for Scotland than it does for Wales,
:33:44. > :33:47.which is poorer, and more than many of the poorer regions in England
:33:48. > :33:51.get? Why is that fair? We have said that in terms of looking at go -
:33:52. > :33:54.local government spending playing out in this Parliament, we have
:33:55. > :33:58.looked at what the government has done which is having already
:33:59. > :34:02.deprived communities having money taken away from them and wealthier
:34:03. > :34:09.communities are getting more. We accept that the Barnett Formula has
:34:10. > :34:12.worked well. How has it works well? There is a cross parliamentary
:34:13. > :34:17.consensus as they don't know what to do about it. Why has it works well,
:34:18. > :34:22.when Wales, clearly loses out? I'm not sure by I accept that when you
:34:23. > :34:27.look at overall underspend -- government spending. It is per
:34:28. > :34:33.capita spending in Scotland, which is way ahead of per capita spending
:34:34. > :34:38.in Wales, but per capita incomes in Scotland are way ahead of Wales Why
:34:39. > :34:42.is that fair Labour politician? We have said we want to have more
:34:43. > :34:46.equitable distribution. You haven't, you have said you will keep the
:34:47. > :34:51.Barnett Formula. I'm not sure necessarily punishing Scotland is
:34:52. > :34:54.the way to go. The way that this debate is going, what message does
:34:55. > :34:59.it send to the Scottish people? I want to be clear, I am delighted
:35:00. > :35:01.with the result we have got. The unity and solidarity where
:35:02. > :35:06.maintaining across the nations of the United Kingdom. All of this
:35:07. > :35:09.separatist talk, setting up different nations of the UK against
:35:10. > :35:12.each other goes completely against what we've all been campaigning for
:35:13. > :35:16.over the last two years, and we shouldn't have any truck with it.
:35:17. > :35:21.Coming onto the announcement on the minimum wage, you would increase it
:35:22. > :35:25.by ?1 50 to take it to ?8, which would be over five years. That is
:35:26. > :35:31.all you are going to do over five years. Have you worked out how much
:35:32. > :35:38.of this increase will be clawed back in taxation and fewer benefits? Work
:35:39. > :35:43.has been done on it. How much? I can't give you an exact figure. The
:35:44. > :35:48.policy pays for itself. The way we have looked at this, we looked at
:35:49. > :35:51.the government figures, and if people are earning more, they would
:35:52. > :35:56.therefore be paying more in income tax and they will be receiving less
:35:57. > :36:00.in benefit and will pay out less in tax credits, so we are confident
:36:01. > :36:03.that this will pay for itself. I'm not asking about the pavement, I'm
:36:04. > :36:09.asking what it means for low paid workers will stop they will get an
:36:10. > :36:14.extra 30p per hour -- about the payment. How much of the 30p to they
:36:15. > :36:19.get to keep? In terms of what they get in the first instance, somebody
:36:20. > :36:22.on the minimum wage now, with our proposal, would get in the region of
:36:23. > :36:28.?3000 a year more than they are at the moment. That is before tax and
:36:29. > :36:35.benefits. How much do they keep I cannot give you an exact figure Why
:36:36. > :36:38.don't you give me an exact figure if you've done the modelling? We are
:36:39. > :36:42.talking about some of the lowest paid people in the country, and I
:36:43. > :36:48.would suggest to you that going down this route, they would face a
:36:49. > :36:51.marginal rate of tax of 50 or 6 % and they will not keep most of this
:36:52. > :36:56.increase you are talking about. I don't accept your figures. But you
:36:57. > :37:02.haven't got any of your own. I just don't have any in my head I can give
:37:03. > :37:05.you right now. Don't you think out policies before you announce them?
:37:06. > :37:08.Of course we think our policies before we announce them but we are
:37:09. > :37:12.confident people have more in their pocket and will be better off with
:37:13. > :37:14.the changes proposed, and we are also seeking to incentivise
:37:15. > :37:18.employers to pay a living wage as well. At the end of the day, as I
:37:19. > :37:23.said, the economy is recovering great, but we know, at the moment,
:37:24. > :37:26.it's still not delivering for a huge number of your viewers and we're
:37:27. > :37:29.determined to do something about it. The status quo is not an option And
:37:30. > :37:35.even joining me. Twice in three days. You can't have too much of a
:37:36. > :37:37.good thing. I am mad. He said that, not me.
:37:38. > :37:40.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics. We
:37:41. > :37:42.say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for
:37:43. > :37:48.Coming up here in twenty minutes, we'll be joined by John Prescott to
:37:49. > :37:50.talk about the challenge facing Labour as their conference starts
:37:51. > :38:01.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:38:02. > :38:03.I'm Julia George and this is the Sunday Politics in the South East.
:38:04. > :38:06.Labour's promising an ?8 an hour minimum wage,
:38:07. > :38:10.more house building and scr`pping Police and Crime Commissiondrs.
:38:11. > :38:12.As the Party conference beghns, we'll ask Deputy Leader Harriet
:38:13. > :38:19.Harman whether Labour's doing enough to win votes in the South E`st.
:38:20. > :38:21.Joining me in the studio today are Sam Gyimah, a Government Minister
:38:22. > :38:23.for the Constitution, whose responsibilities will no doubt
:38:24. > :38:33.Simon will stand for Labour at the General Election in the Dartford.
:38:34. > :38:39.Make no mistake the politic`l fall`out from Scotland's no vote is
:38:40. > :38:44.One question has been answered, but many more now demand our attention.
:38:45. > :38:47.Sara Neville reports on the political response in the South East
:38:48. > :38:58.As is one debate closes, another begins.
:38:59. > :39:01.I have long believed that a crucial part missing from this
:39:02. > :39:12.and now the millions of voices of England must also be heard.
:39:13. > :39:19.But what does a vote 400 miles away in Scotland lean
:39:20. > :39:24.the prosperous counties of Kent Surrey and Sussex, politically
:39:25. > :39:30.The English question has suddenly become the biggest question
:39:31. > :39:35.Until Thursday, it was the Scottish national question.
:39:36. > :39:40.now the questions are all about the governance of England
:39:41. > :39:42.The governance of towns likd Maidstone,
:39:43. > :39:44.the administrative heart of Kent.
:39:45. > :39:48.But how much devolution will there be for England and should
:39:49. > :39:52.Scottish MPs be able to votd on English matters?
:39:53. > :39:56.Nigel Farage was quick to m`ke his position clear,
:39:57. > :39:58.getting his letters in the post to Scottish MPs,
:39:59. > :40:03.imploring them not to vote on English issues.
:40:04. > :40:06.Once we have sorted out the structure of the United Kingdom
:40:07. > :40:10.maybe there is an argument for more devolution down to county council
:40:11. > :40:15.I personally would be in favour of that.
:40:16. > :40:17.As part of his commitment to Scotland,
:40:18. > :40:20.David Cameron has promised to keep the public funding system that
:40:21. > :40:25.currently means people in Scotland received more government money than
:40:26. > :40:33.My constituents want to know why we are subsidising Scotland in
:40:34. > :40:36.the way we have been doing `nd also why Scottish MPs vote on
:40:37. > :40:39.English`only matters in the House of Commons.
:40:40. > :40:46.with some of the Prime Minister s own MPs.
:40:47. > :40:49.I would only support any devolution of more powers to Scotland
:40:50. > :40:56.The first would be that the Barnett formula is scrapped
:40:57. > :41:03.and that Scottish MPs should not be allowed to either vote on nor take
:41:04. > :41:06.part in debates on any meastres that have been devolved to the
:41:07. > :41:12.Those are the 2 two conditions on which I would support the plans
:41:13. > :41:15.Cameron has a particular problem with Conservative rebels
:41:16. > :41:19.in the south east, largely because he is facing a real challenge
:41:20. > :41:24.He might want to be moderatd and sensible about the Englhsh
:41:25. > :41:28.question but in the south`e`st he is going to be pushed by his own MPs to
:41:29. > :41:32.do something quite radical `s they are under pressure from UKIP.
:41:33. > :41:34.That is a pressure that is only going to build
:41:35. > :41:46.in the run`up to the general election.
:41:47. > :41:52.But the let's ask is whether the professor is right. He says the
:41:53. > :41:57.Government of England is now the burning political question. Coming
:41:58. > :42:02.up to the general election, will you be campaigning on English
:42:03. > :42:05.governance? What is referendum has thrown up is that we have got to
:42:06. > :42:12.deal with the Scottish question which is more devolution, as all
:42:13. > :42:16.main political parties commhtted to. In order to deal with that,
:42:17. > :42:20.we've also got to deal with the issue of England. As the Prhme
:42:21. > :42:25.Minister said on Friday, th`t means English votes for English l`ws. But
:42:26. > :42:29.is that a vote winner? I understand that politicians think this is
:42:30. > :42:35.important is it important on the doorsteps? You heard Norman Baker
:42:36. > :42:38.said that people are asking him about the Barnett formula and the
:42:39. > :42:42.West Lothian question. Has `nyone ever really ask you that on the
:42:43. > :42:47.doorstep? It is important bdcause it is about fairness. We need to make
:42:48. > :42:52.sure that if a Scottish MP hs going to vote or should not be able to
:42:53. > :42:56.vote on the tax of my consthtuents pay on the other way around. But
:42:57. > :43:02.will you campaign on this? We will. The Prime Minister has said that we
:43:03. > :43:08.have got clear proposals and hoping forward draft clauses and c`mpaign
:43:09. > :43:12.on it. Simon, will you? I h`ve been going around the doorsteps for the
:43:13. > :43:17.last year and a half and for people priorities are housing, jobs, cost
:43:18. > :43:20.of living, transport and chhldcare. Nobody has talked to me abott the
:43:21. > :43:24.Barnett formula or the democratic deficit for England. It may well be
:43:25. > :43:28.an issue that we have to look at but what the 3 party leaders promised
:43:29. > :43:34.before the Scottish referendum vote was that they would all givd
:43:35. > :43:39.devolution and greater powers to Scotland. That is not negothable and
:43:40. > :43:44.they cannot start now. David Cameron cannot start making false promises.
:43:45. > :43:48.You cannot deal with Scotland without dealing with what is that
:43:49. > :43:53.the heart of this. But David Cameron made that promise and then came out
:43:54. > :43:58.last Friday... The Barnett formula is common to most people here in the
:43:59. > :44:01.south`east, manifestly unfahr. There is a case to look at the Barnett
:44:02. > :44:09.formula but not now, not in nine months. But you said there was not
:44:10. > :44:12.this morning. I think at thhs stage dash`mac some stage we will have to
:44:13. > :44:16.look at the Barnett formula, once we decide what devolution we w`nt for
:44:17. > :44:21.England. But I want to see devolution being a federal system
:44:22. > :44:24.from the bottom up. It can lean good things, involving a local councils,
:44:25. > :44:29.regions, bringing them into our democratic process. We will get onto
:44:30. > :44:36.devolution in a moment. A qtick thought. UKIP are making it running
:44:37. > :44:40.on this. This is painful because there will be Tory backbenchers who
:44:41. > :44:44.will want to matches arguments and this causes problems for yotr
:44:45. > :44:49.letter. The Prime Minister promised on Friday that we are going to
:44:50. > :44:54.deliver English votes for English MPs. The Prime Minister is the only
:44:55. > :45:01.1 who can deliver. What Nigdl Farage is talking about this is unspecified
:45:02. > :45:06.devolution to county council level. An English parliament, incrdasing
:45:07. > :45:10.the cost of English politics, and we have got from proposals and a clear
:45:11. > :45:15.timetable and the Prime Minhster has pitted firmly on the bulletdd
:45:16. > :45:20.agenda. Many people think it is entirely unreasonable. We hdard a
:45:21. > :45:24.little earlier David Cameron said on Friday...
:45:25. > :45:27.on Friday that he would now look at how to "empower our great chties."
:45:28. > :45:30.But what does that mean for us in the South East?
:45:31. > :45:33.And what might a change in the political set up mean to our taxes,
:45:34. > :45:37.Joining us here in the studio is David Hodgd who is
:45:38. > :45:40.the leader of Surrey County Council, but also chair of the
:45:41. > :45:45.`` I tried to wade through this document last night, your plan for
:45:46. > :45:49.giving county council is more power, tell me in the simplest terls, what
:45:50. > :45:54.you want for county council now What we actually believe should
:45:55. > :45:57.happen now... There is a lot of talk about the Barnett formula btt the
:45:58. > :46:01.people who have to deal with the Barnett formula everyday I local
:46:02. > :46:07.government. That is myself `s the chairman of the County Council
:46:08. > :46:10.network and others. We have to deal with the facts of that now.
:46:11. > :46:14.Parliament has allowed it to continue for 30 years withott ever
:46:15. > :46:18.doing anything about it. Wh`t we now need is somewhere along the line we
:46:19. > :46:22.have to get involved in those discussions with William Hague, how
:46:23. > :46:26.do we have a fairer funding system for local government? Is thhs all
:46:27. > :46:31.about getting more money or is it about more power? The key bdhind the
:46:32. > :46:37.one place, one budget philosophy is very simple. It is the vision that
:46:38. > :46:41.we believe that as the county councils have saved 40% of funding
:46:42. > :46:46.over the last four years, and in funny that his 260 million `nd we
:46:47. > :46:51.are on for another 70,000,000 this year, we believe that we have the
:46:52. > :46:56.capacity and size to look at how we could actually run public sdrvices
:46:57. > :47:01.better. What do you want power to do? Power to reduce the costs of
:47:02. > :47:07.public services and ensure that they work better together. According to
:47:08. > :47:11.this document, power to raise council tax to whatever levdl you
:47:12. > :47:19.want to without a referendul. We think that you cannot have ` 1 size
:47:20. > :47:22.fit all county council level over the country. You cannot havd a
:47:23. > :47:29.system whereby the Government gives power and funding to Manchester and
:47:30. > :47:33.yet children in Mainstone and East Sussex do not have that samd
:47:34. > :47:38.funding. The whole system is flawed. Let's bring our guests in. Do we
:47:39. > :47:45.want county councils, famind, to have more power? We have he`rd a lot
:47:46. > :47:52.from Westminster about citids but we are dominated by County Council
:47:53. > :47:55.politics here. We have a re`l mishmash of who we are reprdsented
:47:56. > :48:00.in this country will stop wd need to look again at how all of those are
:48:01. > :48:05.involved in our democratic possess. That involves the way Parli`ment
:48:06. > :48:10.operates and also other things. This was an issue 1970s, long before
:48:11. > :48:16.Nigel Farage was out of short trousers. This is not a UKIP issue
:48:17. > :48:20.and we need to have an honest debate but we cannot start in 6 months
:48:21. > :48:24.David Cameron tried to hit the ground running and suggesting this
:48:25. > :48:27.is what we need today. Able in the street may want to talk abott this
:48:28. > :48:31.at some point but I do not think they won't David Cameron to tell
:48:32. > :48:34.them what is going to happen. But they might quite like the idea of
:48:35. > :48:41.the local County Council having more power. This is mentioned by Nigel
:48:42. > :48:45.Farage and David also. Do the people of the South Eastern feel energised
:48:46. > :48:51.by the idea of... I know thd people of cities like Manchester do but do
:48:52. > :48:55.people really want their cotnty councils having more say in their
:48:56. > :48:59.lives? People feel energised by David Cameron's promise of
:49:00. > :49:04.devolution. William Hague's committee... Can we stop talking
:49:05. > :49:10.about the national angle and talk about it at a local level. Can I
:49:11. > :49:14.finish? William Hague will look at all aspects, including the local
:49:15. > :49:19.angle. We should not confusd the issue of the funding issue for local
:49:20. > :49:22.government, about which I h`ve complained for many years, with the
:49:23. > :49:28.big national question, which is that if we go ahead with devoluthon as it
:49:29. > :49:31.has been discussed for Scotland a Scottish MP will vote on English
:49:32. > :49:36.income tax whereas an English MP cannot fork on Scottish income tax.
:49:37. > :49:40.That night but this is really important. Do people really trust
:49:41. > :49:45.and have more confidence in the local politicians? This was
:49:46. > :49:49.suggested by the green lettdr of Brendan dash`mac Green leaddr of
:49:50. > :49:54.rating and all. The City Cotncil for a start, do people really bdlieve
:49:55. > :50:03.that when they have not had there beens empty? Do people really trust
:50:04. > :50:07.their local politicians? I think there is no doubt about it, the
:50:08. > :50:11.evidence is clear, that people trust local councillors more than as a
:50:12. > :50:15.Parliament. But the public `re not asking for county councils to be
:50:16. > :50:20.raising their income tax more than they have already. Nobody is asking
:50:21. > :50:23.for that, which is what you want. The people want to ensure that where
:50:24. > :50:30.there is a demand for those services and when you have people of 65, 75
:50:31. > :50:35.and 85 in the county areas `re almost double the area in inner
:50:36. > :50:41.London and receive the lowest funding for those people, the system
:50:42. > :50:44.is broken. We need a fundamdntal look at the local government
:50:45. > :50:48.settlement system. Let me go back to the people and what they thhnk about
:50:49. > :50:53.this. You're in the south`e`st we are so close to London, do we really
:50:54. > :51:03.feel eliminated by Westminster politics as those in the North do?
:51:04. > :51:07.Now but we have a lot of problems in Dartford that are shared by London
:51:08. > :51:13.but we did not benefit from the solutions of transport and housing.
:51:14. > :51:17.There are cancelled here th`t should have a voice and that should matter
:51:18. > :51:19.to the Democratic process. H wanted to say thank you to David. Ht has
:51:20. > :51:21.been great having you with ts. Now, it's been a very different
:51:22. > :51:24.beginning to the annual polhtical party season, dominated as ht has
:51:25. > :51:26.been by the fallout This week is
:51:27. > :51:29.the Labour gathering and so, travelling up to Manchester will be
:51:30. > :51:32.many parliamentary candidatds who will stand in constituencies
:51:33. > :51:34.across the south east, like Simon. A little earlier I spoke to
:51:35. > :51:37.the Deputy Leader of the I began by asking her what Labour
:51:38. > :51:41.can say this week that will resonate on the doorsteps of south e`st
:51:42. > :51:45.at the general election. Well, obviously we think thdre
:51:46. > :51:49.are people in Sussex, Surrex, Hampshire who actually are
:51:50. > :51:51.feeling the problems that are coming
:51:52. > :51:54.from this government, with the cost`of`living rising and their
:51:55. > :51:57.pay not getting better, with trouble It is not as if
:51:58. > :52:04.the south east has not got lany of the same problems that other people
:52:05. > :52:08.get fed up with all around Dngland. And also, not only
:52:09. > :52:12.the economic situation and their own family budgets but also the issue
:52:13. > :52:15.of the fact that England is too centralised and certain things need
:52:16. > :52:20.to be changed and decisions made to So you would support devolution to
:52:21. > :52:25.a county council level, to Kent County Council and
:52:26. > :52:32.Suffolk County Council? Actually, the local authorities
:52:33. > :52:36.throughout England, and that includes the ones where Labour is
:52:37. > :52:39.running the councils and whdre the are saying that the country is too
:52:40. > :52:43.centralised and it could work better if more decisions
:52:44. > :52:48.were made at local level and more Because there are particular
:52:49. > :52:54.problems in the south`east which people in the south e`st often
:52:55. > :52:59.feel London, although it is not far away geographically,
:53:00. > :53:02.does not understand and thex could There needs to be
:53:03. > :53:07.a proper discussion about this and Ed Miliband has said we will
:53:08. > :53:10.set this in motion, including And in autumn of next year, we will
:53:11. > :53:18.have a constitutional convention to bring it all together and work out
:53:19. > :53:22.what it means, including what it means for the
:53:23. > :53:25.House of Commons and MPs. But it is not just London that
:53:26. > :53:29.people feel abstracted from. They do not feel that Labour has
:53:30. > :53:32.got anything to offer them. You were completely wiped
:53:33. > :53:35.off the map in Kent There are small gains in pl`ces
:53:36. > :53:39.like Crawley but not elsewhdre What have you got in partictlar
:53:40. > :53:47.to attract voters in our region We have been making some progress
:53:48. > :53:52.and winning more council se`ts but yes, it is true that in 201 we
:53:53. > :53:59.were very far back in the polls Since then, I think, people have
:54:00. > :54:03.seen that despite the fact that they have been working harddr and
:54:04. > :54:06.the government tells them that the recovery is there, a lot of people
:54:07. > :54:10.have felt that there might be a recovery but their season thcket has
:54:11. > :54:15.gone up much higher than thdir pay and it is a headache
:54:16. > :54:18.trying to get the right child care to work in a way that they want to
:54:19. > :54:23.to support their families. So I think that we have got
:54:24. > :54:26.a whole range of measures to put forward to people at
:54:27. > :54:30.the next general election when they Will those include capping
:54:31. > :54:35.rail fares and will they On both of those
:54:36. > :54:44.and also a freeze on energy bills. And if you look at childcard, we
:54:45. > :54:48.need women to be going out to work and they need to be going ott to
:54:49. > :54:52.work for their own household budgets so we are saying 25 hours of free
:54:53. > :54:59.nursery provision a week for three and four`year`olds and then
:55:00. > :55:02.if parents want to top up and have more hours then thdy can
:55:03. > :55:04.pay for that themselves but they would have 25 hours free,
:55:05. > :55:08.which I think would be, you know, a very important step forward
:55:09. > :55:16.and will appeal to many people. How many seats do you think you
:55:17. > :55:19.need to take in the south e`st to look like a credible force `gain
:55:20. > :55:22.in English politics? I think it is about appealing to
:55:23. > :55:25.people in the south east and I am not
:55:26. > :55:36.a pollster or political comlentator, I am somebody who actually listens
:55:37. > :55:39.to people in the south east, talks to them and actually then
:55:40. > :55:42.brings to the Labour Party those points of view to get the policies
:55:43. > :55:45.which can deliver for peopld. I will leave the predictions to
:55:46. > :55:47.your commentators but I think that actually there are
:55:48. > :55:50.people in the south east who want change every bit as much as people
:55:51. > :56:02.in the West Midlands or the North. Let's pick up on one of the big
:56:03. > :56:07.conference announcements. Ed Miliband has said that he would like
:56:08. > :56:17.to see the minimum wage increased to ?8. We have talked about thd living
:56:18. > :56:22.wage, which various county councils voted against for their staff. He
:56:23. > :56:25.stings and said they would not survive higher salary commitments.
:56:26. > :56:32.What do you say to them? I think it is the question of what sochety you
:56:33. > :56:37.want to live in. A just sochety or an answer society. I do not think it
:56:38. > :56:42.pounds per hour is too much to pay your stuff. Think about how much it
:56:43. > :56:50.costs to get to London to work. Ed Miliband is not promising ?8 per
:56:51. > :56:55.hour. He is saying that by 2020 The national minimum wage we ard
:56:56. > :57:00.delivering an above inflation national minimum wage. This is it
:57:01. > :57:06.pounds per hour. By 2020 it is derisory. What we are offerhng is 2
:57:07. > :57:13.things. Because of our long`term economic plan you have got `n above
:57:14. > :57:18.average increase in minimum wage. Number 2 we are offering an income
:57:19. > :57:25.tax free ?10,000 of your earnings as a result of which 26 million people
:57:26. > :57:30.have had... How much do you earn? That is a good question. Thd point
:57:31. > :57:34.is that we should allow people to keep more of what they earn and we
:57:35. > :57:40.are delivering that by giving ?10,000 free of income tax. They
:57:41. > :57:45.will be a lot of people on ` fraction of what... It is not about
:57:46. > :57:51.me. Do you think the spare to get paid ?8 per hour to be paid on? It
:57:52. > :57:57.is derisory when you do not have an economic plan. So you think you re
:57:58. > :58:04.going to give more than ?8 per hour by 2020? We all deliver... H am
:58:05. > :58:08.going to move on. What will minimum wage be? We are already delhvering
:58:09. > :58:13.an above average increase. H wanted to move on to house`building. You
:58:14. > :58:19.know this in Kent as a board when, we have seen major protest `bout
:58:20. > :58:23.thousands of new homes planned for Kent villages. How do you pdrsuade
:58:24. > :58:28.people that you will deliver and that it is good for people? I was
:58:29. > :58:32.talking about this when it was the question of garden cities. Xou do
:58:33. > :58:36.not want garden cities in places where there are green belts. What he
:58:37. > :58:40.wanted to do is build those affordable houses in places like the
:58:41. > :58:44.industrial wastelands of constituencies like Dartford. There
:58:45. > :58:48.is a huge swathes of land lxing empty. That is why the idea from
:58:49. > :58:52.Labour to say to developers is use it or lose it is so important and
:58:53. > :58:58.that is why we need to have collaboration so the infrastructure
:58:59. > :59:01.goes in before the housing hs built. Enjoy your party conference I know
:59:02. > :59:04.you're going straight off after the show.
:59:05. > :59:06.And now for a round`up of the other political events that
:59:07. > :59:09.you might have missed this week with James Fitzgerald.
:59:10. > :59:13.I look forward to flying back into Manston at some point in thd future.
:59:14. > :59:17.Manston campaigners were told in a ministerial visit that thdy have
:59:18. > :59:20.got the government's support to reopen the airport.
:59:21. > :59:23.American firm RiverOak conthnues to insist it has the funds.
:59:24. > :59:26.I don't want to say is a slam dunk
:59:27. > :59:30.but we are in a pretty good position.
:59:31. > :59:32.With scenes of rubbish`strewn streets reminiscent of industrial
:59:33. > :59:34.action last year, Brighton's refuse workers went on strike
:59:35. > :59:38.We want to be recognised for the job we do.
:59:39. > :59:41.They keep holding back and holding back.
:59:42. > :59:44.The authority says it cannot meet their financial demands.
:59:45. > :59:46.The Health Secretary, Jeremx Hunt, met staff at the Medway Marhtime,
:59:47. > :59:49.saying that faster progress is needed
:59:50. > :59:52.to take the challenged hospital out of special measures.
:59:53. > :59:55.We are doing a lot but I think the hospital management
:59:56. > :59:58.would be the first to say that more needs to be done.
:59:59. > :00:01.And the Government may give France ?12 million to boost security
:00:02. > :00:04.at Calais to stem the flow of migrants
:00:05. > :00:13.trying to illegally enter the UK through the port.
:00:14. > :00:21.That's all we've got time for from the South East this wedk.
:00:22. > :00:33.The quick thought. Will ?12 million. Problem? The answer is to work with
:00:34. > :00:36.the EU. Is the boundless general estate going to solve the problem in
:00:37. > :00:38.colour? Speed, it is an important step and let's see what happens
:00:39. > :00:43.Desperately sad scenes. Simon Thomson. Natalie will be here
:00:44. > :00:58.live next week with more politics the Conservative mayor's policy No
:00:59. > :01:06.more time I'm afraid. Andrew, back to you.
:01:07. > :01:08.Welcome back the to Labour conference, where we're joined
:01:09. > :01:12.by the latest hot new stand-up comedian on the Manchester circuit.
:01:13. > :01:17.I speak of course of former Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott.
:01:18. > :01:19.In between giving tub-thumping speeches to rally
:01:20. > :01:22.the party faithful this week, he's appearing at the Comedy Store.
:01:23. > :01:25.He was also of course the man behind the last attempt to solve
:01:26. > :01:36.Our political panel is with me as well. John, we have got Scottish
:01:37. > :01:39.votes for Scottish laws, and more Scottish votes for Scottish laws,
:01:40. > :01:45.why not English votes for English laws? That's an English parliament
:01:46. > :01:49.in a major constitutional change and that is what has started. I
:01:50. > :01:53.certainly don't agree with that I campaign for powers to be given to
:01:54. > :01:56.the regions. When I first tested it in the Northeast, I lost. Why?
:01:57. > :02:01.Because they said they were not the same powers you are giving to
:02:02. > :02:08.Scotland. So, basically, we must do that, decentralised, not just with a
:02:09. > :02:12.Westminster Parliament. As you know, in 32 years I produce the
:02:13. > :02:17.alternative. You've kept that for 32 years? I took it off my shelf and
:02:18. > :02:23.everybody was talking about it now, but they weren't in 1982. This was
:02:24. > :02:29.my five plan. 200 meetings all around the country -- five-year
:02:30. > :02:33.plan. You wrote this morning, not 35 years ago, that this was a plot to
:02:34. > :02:36.turn Westminster into a Tory dominated English parliament. But if
:02:37. > :02:42.that is how England had voted, it's not a plot, it's democracy. You can
:02:43. > :02:46.get reform in a more federal structure, and even English
:02:47. > :02:49.parliament does fit into the federal structure and that is what the
:02:50. > :02:54.Liberals say, but you need a fairer representation. It might be quite
:02:55. > :02:58.radical, and we could get rid of the Lord's, and have representation in
:02:59. > :03:04.the region there. It can't be done in two weeks. Alex Salmond, he's
:03:05. > :03:07.assuming he has been sold out, and it was less than a week ago they
:03:08. > :03:13.remain the announcement. We have to get it carried out will stop but
:03:14. > :03:18.don't connect it to the English parliament that fixes it in their
:03:19. > :03:20.favour. It may be pretty low politics from David Cameron to come
:03:21. > :03:27.up with something that was not in the vowel -- a bow on the front page
:03:28. > :03:30.of the daily record, but if they do not agree with what he said at the
:03:31. > :03:34.time of the general election, he will say two in which voters, if you
:03:35. > :03:38.want real protection in England vote Conservative, and if you want
:03:39. > :03:42.Scottish MPs deciding on your level of taxation, vote Labour. He is
:03:43. > :03:46.scared to death of UKIP may have been saying it for a while. In the
:03:47. > :03:50.constitutional changes have to see what is fair and equitable, the same
:03:51. > :03:54.with the Barnett fallen -- formula. But what you have to do is get a
:03:55. > :03:58.fair system. It takes time to discuss it. I was doing a 32 years
:03:59. > :04:02.ago and nobody wanted to know. We had better start a debate, and don't
:04:03. > :04:07.mixed up the constitutional type of English parliament with what we are
:04:08. > :04:13.promising in Scotland. It is about trust and politics. So the turnout
:04:14. > :04:17.of the north-east regional assembly and they voted against it. The
:04:18. > :04:20.turnout that the police and crime commissioners was low. How'd you get
:04:21. > :04:25.people interested in the process and it doesn't feel like a conversation
:04:26. > :04:28.in smoky rooms and you go back to British people and tell them what
:04:29. > :04:33.you decided? If you look at the turnout in Scotland whether they
:04:34. > :04:35.were interested in, now it is phenomenally interesting. It is
:04:36. > :04:39.about real power, having real influence. What they said to me in
:04:40. > :04:43.the north-east, they said we know you have an idea for devolution and
:04:44. > :04:46.you will give us assemblies but it doesn't have the power of Scotland,
:04:47. > :04:50.but now we are talking about equity, similar distribution of
:04:51. > :04:53.power and similar resources. The English people are entitled to that.
:04:54. > :04:59.They have been robbed of it for too long. Labour has long struggled with
:05:00. > :05:02.what it should do over devolving power to the regions and you came up
:05:03. > :05:07.with regional assemblies. Ed Miliband has a different idea of
:05:08. > :05:10.city regions. Aren't they the same idea of yours but without a
:05:11. > :05:14.democratic accountability? Can we really trust the greater region of
:05:15. > :05:18.Manchester or Birmingham to deliver if there is not the same kind of
:05:19. > :05:24.democratic link with the people I live in whole, and it stops on the
:05:25. > :05:29.boundary of the Pennines -- the city of Hull. We have city regions from
:05:30. > :05:32.Labour because I failed in the north-east to get the assemblies in,
:05:33. > :05:36.and now we have to look at those options. Do you work through city
:05:37. > :05:40.regions? Mainly in the north, I might say. Even the federal
:05:41. > :05:43.structure they talk about my be in the North or Midlands with
:05:44. > :05:48.Birmingham, but there are a number of options and that is where I
:05:49. > :05:52.believe that what the White Paper should do is to put those options
:05:53. > :05:56.in. Instead of having to put them together, state what you want to do
:05:57. > :05:59.in the English regions. Leave it to the legislation, which is what will
:06:00. > :06:03.happen with the Scottish, and once you've agreed it, you do it after.
:06:04. > :06:07.You have to start the radical debate about giving the English regions,
:06:08. > :06:11.not centralised in London, but decentralised. Do you need to have a
:06:12. > :06:17.separate English parliament? Wouldn't it just satisfy the English
:06:18. > :06:21.if you simply said to MPs, when it's in English matter in the House of
:06:22. > :06:24.Commons, stop interfering? I would disagree with that. I would say put
:06:25. > :06:29.the option in the White Paper. The White Paper seems to be talking
:06:30. > :06:32.about Scotland. If you don't put the commitments to what you want to do
:06:33. > :06:38.with the English regions, people might say I'm not supporting that.
:06:39. > :06:41.Put the framework in the White Paper, but a different timetable.
:06:42. > :06:45.Devolution in this country has been to a different timetable, whether
:06:46. > :06:49.it's Wales, Northern Ireland. Start looking fundamentally at it and the
:06:50. > :06:56.Labour Party should be leading the debate. Let's come the no campaign
:06:57. > :07:00.lost Glasgow. The cradle of British socialism. -- let's come to
:07:01. > :07:03.something that happened with the referendum as the no campaign lost
:07:04. > :07:08.Glasgow. Is it a sign that the Labour Party are finding it hard to
:07:09. > :07:12.what -- hold on to their traditional working class vote question mark its
:07:13. > :07:16.different in Manchester. They would say it is a message about
:07:17. > :07:25.decentralisation. If we change the message a bit maybe. We have been
:07:26. > :07:29.thinking that now it is that either the Labour Party to recognise it is
:07:30. > :07:33.not the old message and old areas that will win it. I remember
:07:34. > :07:38.covering the 1997 referendum in Scotland and you gave a tub thumping
:07:39. > :07:41.speech in a big hall in Hamilton and you really connected. Obviously it
:07:42. > :07:44.was a different referendum because that was about a parliament, not
:07:45. > :07:49.independence and Alex Salmond was on your side, but you, and Ingush MP,
:07:50. > :07:53.an English minister, connected to the core Labour voters in a way that
:07:54. > :08:02.Ed Miliband is failing to do -- an English MP. You make a fair point.
:08:03. > :08:09.In the big rally, I had to point out I was Welsh. Enough of this. Get on
:08:10. > :08:14.with it. What I was saying there was that I supported you, as I did for
:08:15. > :08:17.30 odd years when Labour MPs were against any thinker Scotland. I
:08:18. > :08:20.support you, but I expect you to come in with your Scottish MPs and
:08:21. > :08:25.make sure the English get their share of the powers and resources
:08:26. > :08:31.and that is what that speech was about, and by God, it's as relevant
:08:32. > :08:35.today as it was then. I haven't got any Scottish MPs, I live in
:08:36. > :08:43.Knightsbridge. Did you get the vote? No. What would you have done? I
:08:44. > :08:49.can't tell you. You would have voted yes, come on. I'm interested. What
:08:50. > :08:56.do you want to hear from the speech by Ed Miliband? People are wondering
:08:57. > :09:00.about where Labour stands. There are many issues we have flown around,
:09:01. > :09:07.and we've done the discussion just now. What he has got to do where he
:09:08. > :09:11.started off on the minimum wage You are trying to deal with those left
:09:12. > :09:15.behind. Those are the bottom. That is the Labour message. The National
:09:16. > :09:18.Health Service is our creation and we have to say it will be saved If
:09:19. > :09:22.you can save all of these bankers with all the money and say you
:09:23. > :09:27.haven't got the money for the NHS, say where we stand. That will be the
:09:28. > :09:31.priority. The third one, housing. I have had a revolutionary idea that
:09:32. > :09:34.you can buy a house without a deposit and without the interest or
:09:35. > :09:40.paying the stamp duty, and you buy it by rent. The government gives
:09:41. > :09:44.?150 billion guaranteed housing for up to 600,000. Get down to ordinary
:09:45. > :09:48.people who can use their rent to buy the house. It's happening in the
:09:49. > :09:51.north-east. Why are they not listening to you? You have said more
:09:52. > :09:56.to connect with ordinary people in three minutes than we will probably
:09:57. > :09:59.hear in an hour. I've been telling them, made, and we have a commission
:10:00. > :10:05.coming out. People don't want commissions, they want action. I
:10:06. > :10:09.say, I know what we do, housing health, the people. That is our
:10:10. > :10:14.language. That is why we are Labour. That a lot of people run away. I
:10:15. > :10:18.think in Glasgow, they wondered about that. If you turn up on the
:10:19. > :10:21.same three platforms, and I know it's a critical thing to say, they
:10:22. > :10:27.think in Scotland it is a coalition. I don't like coalitions. It looks
:10:28. > :10:31.like a coalition, didn't it? Maybe it was saved because Rupert Murdoch
:10:32. > :10:37.started the The Times about the polls and he couldn't even get the
:10:38. > :10:41.sun to say that they wanted. We haven't got time. I wondered how
:10:42. > :10:47.long it would take is to get to repot Murdoch. You beat the record.
:10:48. > :10:51.-- to Rupert Murdoch. Labour is quite behind on the economy, and
:10:52. > :10:54.people are looking at Labour, trying to work out if they can trust you to
:10:55. > :11:00.the stewards of the economy given 2010. Under Labour 's plans there is
:11:01. > :11:05.20 billion of cuts to make in the next Parliament. Will we hear
:11:06. > :11:11.anything about that? It is about the proportion of debt to GDP. I know it
:11:12. > :11:16.sounds historic, but our debt when we came in in 1997 was a proportion
:11:17. > :11:22.of GDP, and you must know this, and that was less than Thatcher's. Why
:11:23. > :11:26.did we get done on debt? You guys run around saying a lot about it,
:11:27. > :11:32.but the fact is it was worse under Thatcher. Thatcher is now seen as a
:11:33. > :11:36.hero. If you look at the debt, it is still a problem. Gordon Brown did an
:11:37. > :11:41.awful lot to solve those problems, but they were still left with us.
:11:42. > :11:44.What we have to have is a sensible discussion like we had on devolution
:11:45. > :11:49.and now we are talking about finances. Let's look at the public
:11:50. > :11:52.sector debt and the price we pay. We need to be putting the record
:11:53. > :11:56.straight. The problem is they tell me, John, we have to look to the
:11:57. > :11:59.future not the past. We are getting screwed on the past and we have to
:12:00. > :12:05.change it and perhaps Gordon Brown coming in could do something.
:12:06. > :12:09.Finishing on the future, when we did a poll of the Labour candidates you
:12:10. > :12:14.were watching on the big screen when it came up that their favourite
:12:15. > :12:24.to succeed Ed Miliband was Yvette Cooper, why did you shout no! That
:12:25. > :12:27.is alive. -- alive. -- that is not true. I know resistance is not
:12:28. > :12:44.strong. What did that mean? You can't get away with anything at
:12:45. > :12:48.a Conference, John. I was dropping comments them to pick up everywhere,
:12:49. > :12:54.I do not wear -- nowhere they got that one from. Good to have you
:12:55. > :12:59.back. Round of applause for former Deputy Prime Minister. That's it for
:13:00. > :13:01.today. Don't applaud them, they are useless.
:13:02. > :13:05.my guests. I'll be back here at Labour conference for the Daily
:13:06. > :13:10.11:30am tomorrow when we'll bring you live coverage of the speech by
:13:11. > :13:16.We're here all week, and next Sunday you can find us in Birmingham for
:13:17. > :13:22.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.