:00:36. > :00:39.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:40. > :00:41.Theresa May says she wants to help people who are
:00:42. > :00:44."just about managing" - so should she reverse
:00:45. > :00:46.George Osborne's cuts to benefits that are supposed to help people
:00:47. > :00:53.Prominent London Imam Shakeel Begg is an extremist speaker,
:00:54. > :00:56.says the High Court, after claims made on this programme.
:00:57. > :01:01.So why is Mr Begg still being allowed to advise the Police?
:01:02. > :01:06.Hillary Clinton fights back over the FBI's renewed investigation
:01:07. > :01:09.into her use of a private email server - is this the boost
:01:10. > :01:14.Donald Trump needed to reignite his chances of winning the White House?
:01:15. > :01:18.The Jungle has gone but now there's a new problem.
:01:19. > :01:21.Kent and Medway said they are full, so what next for the child
:01:22. > :01:24.Now it is just a question of building that runway with the
:01:25. > :01:31.political problems that lie ahead. And haunting the studio
:01:32. > :01:33.on this Halloween weekend, the most terrifying political
:01:34. > :01:35.panel in the business - Tim 'Ghost' Shipman,
:01:36. > :01:39.'Eerie' Isabel Oakeshott and First this morning, two
:01:40. > :01:47.new models of car to be built, securing 7,000 jobs at the car plant
:01:48. > :01:50.in Sunderland and a further 28, 00 The news from Nissan on Thursday
:01:51. > :01:57.was seized on by Leave campaigners as evidence that the British
:01:58. > :01:59.economy is in rude health This morning, the Business
:02:00. > :02:03.Secretary, Greg Clark, was asked what assurances were given
:02:04. > :02:06.to the Japanese firm's bosses Well, it's in no-one's the interest
:02:07. > :02:13.for there to be tariff barriers to the continent
:02:14. > :02:18.and vice versa. So, what I said is that our
:02:19. > :02:21.objective would be to ensure that we have continued access to the markets
:02:22. > :02:27.in Europe and vice versa, without tariffs and without
:02:28. > :02:31.bureaucratic impediments. That is how we will approach
:02:32. > :02:35.those negotiations. We're joined now from Newcastle
:02:36. > :02:48.by the Shadow Business Welcome to the programme. Labour has
:02:49. > :02:52.been a bit sceptical about this Nissan decision. Can we begin by
:02:53. > :02:57.making it clear just what a great achievement this is, above all for
:02:58. > :03:02.the workers of Sunderland who have some of the highest productivity in
:03:03. > :03:07.the world, have never been on strike for 30 years, and produce cars of
:03:08. > :03:13.incredible quality. This is their victory, isn't it? Andrew, you are
:03:14. > :03:15.absolutely right. The Nissan plant in Sunderland is among the most
:03:16. > :03:21.productive in the world. The workers of Nissan are amongst the most
:03:22. > :03:27.productive as well. And it's really a victory for them and for the trade
:03:28. > :03:29.unions and the business organisations, and everybody who
:03:30. > :03:36.campaigned to make sure that the government couldn't ignore their
:03:37. > :03:40.future. It's our future. I'm the MP for Newcastle. It makes a huge
:03:41. > :03:44.difference to the region. We are a region that still likes to make
:03:45. > :03:49.things that work. It is a huge part of our advanced manufacturing
:03:50. > :03:55.sector. So it's really something we welcome as well as the job security.
:03:56. > :03:59.I'm glad we have got that on the record from the Labour shadow
:04:00. > :04:02.business secretary. But your Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, claims
:04:03. > :04:08.the government is ignoring manufacturers and cares only about a
:04:09. > :04:11.small banking elite. In what way is safeguarding 30,000 industrial jobs
:04:12. > :04:16.in the North safeguarding a financial elite? As I said, we're
:04:17. > :04:20.really pleased that the campaigning by trade unions and the workforce,
:04:21. > :04:24.and business organisations, meant the government felt they couldn t
:04:25. > :04:29.ignore Nissan workers. Let's also be clear that we want that kind of job
:04:30. > :04:33.security for all of those working in manufacturing and in other sectors
:04:34. > :04:38.as well. And sweetheart deals for one company, no matter how important
:04:39. > :04:43.they are, that does not an industrial strategy make. Why'd you
:04:44. > :04:49.say it is a sweetheart deal? Greg Clark told the BBC this morning that
:04:50. > :04:53.what was assured to Nissan is an assurance he gives to the whole
:04:54. > :04:59.industrial sector? I was really pleased to see Greg Clark felt he
:05:00. > :05:04.had to say something, even though it's sad that we having our
:05:05. > :05:07.industrial strategy, you like, or our approach to Brexit delivered
:05:08. > :05:12.piecemeal to the media rather than to the British people and Nissan,
:05:13. > :05:16.actually. But he want published the letter. He said he has told us what
:05:17. > :05:20.is in the letter and that reassurances given on training, on
:05:21. > :05:25.science and on supporting the supply chain for the automated sector. You
:05:26. > :05:30.must be in favour all -- of all of that? We are in favour of an
:05:31. > :05:39.industrial strategy. Greg Clark unlike Sajid Javid, cannot say
:05:40. > :05:45.industrial strategy. I'm still puzzling to find out what it is you
:05:46. > :05:49.disagree with. Let me put the question. You said the assurances he
:05:50. > :05:54.has given to Nissan are available to the car manufacturing sector in
:05:55. > :05:59.general and indeed to industry in general. What is your problem with
:06:00. > :06:03.that? Two things. Let him publish the letter so we can see that, let
:06:04. > :06:09.him have the transparency he's pretending to offer. But also, we
:06:10. > :06:17.need an industrial strategy that values -- that is values based and
:06:18. > :06:23.joined. He talked about electric cars and supporting green cars. That
:06:24. > :06:27.was in regard to Nissan. At the same time the government has slashed
:06:28. > :06:31.support for other areas of green technology. So what is it? That is
:06:32. > :06:37.not to do with the Nissan deal. Labour implied at some stage there
:06:38. > :06:41.was some financial inducement, some secret bribes, that doesn't seem to
:06:42. > :06:47.be the case. You are not claiming that any more -- any more. Then you
:06:48. > :06:51.claimed it was a sweetheart deal for one company. That turns out not to
:06:52. > :06:57.be the case. What criticism are you left with on this Nissan deal? I
:06:58. > :07:04.would be really surprised if all that Nissan got was the reassurances
:07:05. > :07:09.that Greg Clark is shared with us. He didn't answer the question of
:07:10. > :07:12.what happens if we can't get continued tariff free access to the
:07:13. > :07:18.single market, if we are not within the single market or the Customs
:07:19. > :07:22.Union. Do you really think a negotiator like Nissan, who are very
:07:23. > :07:24.good at negotiating, they would have excepted making this significant
:07:25. > :07:30.investment without some further reassurances? Do you think there is
:07:31. > :07:35.some kind of financial bride and if so what is the evidence? I would
:07:36. > :07:41.like to see the letter published and I would also like to understand what
:07:42. > :07:46.would happen... There are 27 countries which need to agree with
:07:47. > :07:49.the deal we have from Brexit. What will Nissan, how will Nissan remain
:07:50. > :07:55.competitive? How will the automotive industry remain competitive? Greg
:07:56. > :07:59.Clark says he reassured them on that. But how will that be so if we
:08:00. > :08:08.do not get access? We haven't heard anything about that. He talks about
:08:09. > :08:12.reassurances given to Nissan. We need to make -- to know where we're
:08:13. > :08:16.going to make sure Brexit is in the interest of all workers, not only
:08:17. > :08:23.those who work for a Nissan and not only those who can get the attention
:08:24. > :08:26.of Greg Clark. He assured Nissan that Britain would remain a
:08:27. > :08:30.competitive place to do business. That was the main assurance he gave
:08:31. > :08:35.them. He would help with skills and infrastructure and all the rest
:08:36. > :08:39.Since you are -- intend to repeal the trade union laws that have made
:08:40. > :08:42.strikes in Britain largely a thing of the past, and you plan to raise
:08:43. > :08:47.corporation tax, you couldn't give Nissan the same assurance, could
:08:48. > :08:52.you? We could absolutely give Nissan the assurance that we will be, our
:08:53. > :08:56.vision of the future of the UK, is based on having a strong
:08:57. > :09:07.manufacturing sector. Repealing trade union laws? As we have seen at
:09:08. > :09:15.Nissan, the industrial sector is dependent on having highly trained,
:09:16. > :09:19.well skilled workers. -- highly skilled, well-trained. You don't
:09:20. > :09:23.have that by getting -- having an aggressive policy and trade union
:09:24. > :09:28.laws or by slashing corporation tax and not supporting manufacturing
:09:29. > :09:30.investment. Remember, the last government took away the
:09:31. > :09:36.Manufacturing allowances which supported Manufacturing and slashed
:09:37. > :09:39.corporation tax. That is their solution. It is a low tax, low skill
:09:40. > :09:44.economy they want. Thank you. Sorry I had to rush you.
:09:45. > :09:54.I'm grateful for you joining us I'm still struggling to see what is
:09:55. > :09:59.left of Labour's criticism? Yeah, except for this. This was a valid
:10:00. > :10:02.point she just made. What we know for sure is that Greg Clark could
:10:03. > :10:09.say to Nissan, my aim is to get tariff free deal. There is no way he
:10:10. > :10:13.could guarantee that. None of us know that. I don't think that was
:10:14. > :10:20.enough. I think clearly there was a more detailed package involving
:10:21. > :10:23.training and other things. He has acknowledged this, albeit we do not
:10:24. > :10:27.know the precise mechanism. What I think is interesting about this is
:10:28. > :10:30.if you reverse what happened this week, at a time when the government
:10:31. > :10:35.says Britain is open for business and it is going to have an
:10:36. > :10:39.industrial strategy, so far it is a bit vaguely defined. Nissan hadn't
:10:40. > :10:42.made this commitment. Imagine what would have happened? It is an
:10:43. > :10:49.impossible scenario. The government seems to me was obliged to make sure
:10:50. > :10:53.this didn't happen. Let's not forget Nissan has invested hundreds of
:10:54. > :10:57.millions in the north-east. It has been a huge success story. When I
:10:58. > :11:01.spoke to workers from Nissan, they were so proud because they went to
:11:02. > :11:05.Japan to teach the Japanese had to be more productive. The idea that
:11:06. > :11:09.Nissan was just going to walk away from this given its track record,
:11:10. > :11:15.its importance, wasn't really credible. The government had some
:11:16. > :11:19.bargaining chips. Absolutely, of course they weren't going to walk
:11:20. > :11:23.away. The majority of people in the area in which Nissan is braced -
:11:24. > :11:28.based, voted for Brexit. Nissan knows it is in a powerful position
:11:29. > :11:31.because it is an emotive sector Clearly the government didn't want
:11:32. > :11:38.to have some big showdown. I honestly don't think this is a
:11:39. > :11:40.smoking gun. The Labour Shadow minister really struggled to
:11:41. > :11:43.articulate what exactly she thinks the government is hiding. I think
:11:44. > :11:48.the reassurances were given were pretty anodyne, really. They were
:11:49. > :11:51.anodyne and general. And what Greg Clark was setting out was an
:11:52. > :11:55.objective and he made the right noises, and Nissan exercised its
:11:56. > :12:02.right to sabre rattle. It does have a history of doing that. The one
:12:03. > :12:05.thing that would now be clear given Greg Clark's performance this
:12:06. > :12:08.morning on the BBC, is that if we were to discover some kind of
:12:09. > :12:13.financial incentive directly linked to this investment, not more for
:12:14. > :12:18.skills or infrastructure, that is fine, but some direct financial
:12:19. > :12:20.investment, compensation for tariffs, which would be illegal
:12:21. > :12:26.under World Trade Organisation rules, what you might call a
:12:27. > :12:30.financial bride, the sect -- the business Secretary's position would
:12:31. > :12:33.be untenable? He would be in a very difficult position indeed. Just
:12:34. > :12:38.released the letter. There is nothing to hide. Put it out there.
:12:39. > :12:43.The most revealing thing is that people are getting wildly excited
:12:44. > :12:47.about the fact Greg Clark announced Britain's negotiating position would
:12:48. > :12:50.be that we would like tariff free trade with Europe. This is regarded
:12:51. > :12:53.as an insight into what this comment is doing and it says a great deal
:12:54. > :12:59.about how little we have been told in Parliament and the media about
:13:00. > :13:03.what they are up. Do you think it is exciting we are going for tariff
:13:04. > :13:10.free trade? We're easily excited these days. We don't know. This is
:13:11. > :13:14.where these things are at such a tentative phase. We don't know how
:13:15. > :13:20.the rest of the European Union is going to respond to Britain's
:13:21. > :13:25.negotiating hand. We know Britain once the best of everything, please.
:13:26. > :13:30.It is a starting point. But that is not how it is going to end up. We
:13:31. > :13:32.are getting wider than that. We have will have to see.
:13:33. > :13:34.Now, Universal Credit, a single payment made to welfare
:13:35. > :13:37.claimants that would roll together a plethora of benefits whilst
:13:38. > :13:39.encouraging people into work by making work pay.
:13:40. > :13:42.But have cuts to the flagship welfare scheme reduced work
:13:43. > :13:47.incentives and hit the incomes of the least well-off?
:13:48. > :13:49.Well, some of the government's own MPs think so, and,
:13:50. > :13:56.as Mark Lobel reports, want the cuts reversed.
:13:57. > :13:59.Theresa May says she wants a country that works
:14:00. > :14:03.for everyone, that's on the side of ordinary, working people.
:14:04. > :14:06.It means never writing off people who can work and consigning them
:14:07. > :14:09.to a life on benefits, but giving them the chance to go out
:14:10. > :14:12.and earn a living and to enjoy the dignity that comes
:14:13. > :14:19.But now some in her party are worried that the low earners
:14:20. > :14:23.will be hit by changes to Universal Credit benefit system
:14:24. > :14:25.originally set up to encourage more people into work.
:14:26. > :14:28.We also need to focus tax credits and Universal Credit
:14:29. > :14:35.Concern centred on the Government's decision in the July 2015 budget
:14:36. > :14:44.to find ?3 billion worth of savings from the Universal Credit bill.
:14:45. > :14:47.Conservative MP Heidi Allen is working on a campaign to get MPs
:14:48. > :14:54.in her party to urge the Prime Minister to think again.
:14:55. > :14:57.I want her to understand for herself what the outcomes might
:14:58. > :14:59.be if we press ahead with the Universal Credit,
:15:00. > :15:03.Do you think Theresa May, right now, understands what you understand
:15:04. > :15:06.To be fair, unless you really get into the detail,
:15:07. > :15:09.and I have through my work on the Work and Pensions
:15:10. > :15:11.Select Committee, I don't think anybody does.
:15:12. > :15:17.Independent economic analysts at the IFS agree with Heidi Alan
:15:18. > :15:21.that cuts to Universal Credit weaken incentives to work.
:15:22. > :15:23.One of the key parts of the Universal Credit system
:15:24. > :15:27.That is how much you can earn before your credit
:15:28. > :15:30.As the Government has sought to save money,
:15:31. > :15:32.both under the Coalition and now they Conservative Government,
:15:33. > :15:34.both under the Coalition and now the Conservative Government,
:15:35. > :15:36.that work allowance has been cut, time and time again.
:15:37. > :15:39.The biggest cuts happened in the summer budget of 2015.
:15:40. > :15:42.That basically reduces the amount of earnings you get to keep
:15:43. > :15:45.It weakens the incentive people have to move into work.
:15:46. > :15:47.What do changes to the Universal Credit system mean?
:15:48. > :15:51.The Resolution Foundation think tank has crunched the numbers.
:15:52. > :15:54.If you compare what would have happened before the July 2015 summer
:15:55. > :15:58.budget to what will happen by 2 20, even if you take into account gains
:15:59. > :15:59.in the National Living Wage and income tax cuts,
:16:00. > :16:05.recipients will be hit by annual deductions.
:16:06. > :16:08.Couples and parents would receive, on average, ?1000 less.
:16:09. > :16:10.A dual-earning couple with two children under four,
:16:11. > :16:13.with one partner working full-time on ?10.50 an hour and the other
:16:14. > :16:16.working part-time on the minimum wage for around 20
:16:17. > :16:23.hours a week, they would receive ?1800 less.
:16:24. > :16:26.Hit most by the changes would be a single parent
:16:27. > :16:27.with a child under four, working full-time
:16:28. > :16:41.I think, if I'm honest, it is unrealistic, given
:16:42. > :16:44.the economic climate, to expect everything to be reversed.
:16:45. > :16:50.What I would like to see is an increase in the work
:16:51. > :16:53.allowances to those people who will be hardest hit.
:16:54. > :16:56.That is single parents and second earners hoping to return to work,
:16:57. > :16:58.because they are the people we need to absolutely make
:16:59. > :17:03.The Sunday Politics understands that about 15 to 20 Conservative MPs
:17:04. > :17:07.are pushing for changes ahead of the Autumn Statement.
:17:08. > :17:10.A former cabinet minister told us that they believed further impact
:17:11. > :17:13.analysis should be done to find out if any mitigation measures
:17:14. > :17:19.Former Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith, an architect
:17:20. > :17:23.of the system, now says the cuts should be reversed.
:17:24. > :17:28.But his former department has told us that it has no plans to revisit
:17:29. > :17:33.the work allowance changes announced in the budget last year.
:17:34. > :17:37.What I would say to Heidi Allen and IDS, they got it right the first
:17:38. > :17:40.time and they should stick to the vote they cast last year
:17:41. > :17:41.because these reforms actually do make sense.
:17:42. > :17:44.What interests me is the fact we are trying to move people
:17:45. > :17:47.off welfare into work, we are raising the wages people
:17:48. > :17:49.earn by massively increasing the minimum wage and this
:17:50. > :17:53.People are coming off welfare and into work.
:17:54. > :17:55.Campaigners are pushing for savings to come from other areas to relieve
:17:56. > :18:01.The other thing we have to start looking at is the triple
:18:02. > :18:05.Financially it has been a great policy, and it was absolutely right
:18:06. > :18:07.that we lifted pensioners who were significantly behind,
:18:08. > :18:10.for many years, in terms of income levels, but they have
:18:11. > :18:15.I think it is time for us to look at that policy again,
:18:16. > :18:17.because is costing us an awful lot of money.
:18:18. > :18:20.With just over three weeks to wait until the Conservative leadership's
:18:21. > :18:23.new economic plan is unveiled in the Autumn Statement,
:18:24. > :18:27.its top team is under pressure from within its own ranks to use it
:18:28. > :18:36.And I'm joined now by former Work and Pensions Secretary,
:18:37. > :18:44.Welcome back to the programme. Theresa May said she is on the side
:18:45. > :18:50.of the just managing, the working poor. But they are about to be hit
:18:51. > :18:53.from all sides. Their modest living standards are going to be squeezed
:18:54. > :18:57.as inflation overtakes pay rises, they will be further squeezed
:18:58. > :19:00.because top-up benefits in work are frozen. Incentives to work are going
:19:01. > :19:05.to be reduced by the cuts in universal benefits. So much for
:19:06. > :19:10.being on the side of those just managing? Theresa was right to focus
:19:11. > :19:17.on this group. The definition has to be the bottom half, in economic
:19:18. > :19:21.terms, of the social structure. It doesn't look good for them? This is
:19:22. > :19:25.the point I am making, it is an opportunity to put some of this
:19:26. > :19:27.right. One of the reasons I resigned in March is because I felt the
:19:28. > :19:31.direction of travel we had been going in had been to take far too
:19:32. > :19:35.much money out of that group of people when there are other areas
:19:36. > :19:39.which, if you need to make some of those savings, you can. The key bit
:19:40. > :19:42.is that the group needs to be helped through into work and encouraged to
:19:43. > :19:46.stay in work. There was a report done with the IFS, when we were
:19:47. > :19:53.there, at Universal Credit. It said Universal Credit rolled out, as it
:19:54. > :19:56.should have been before the cuts, people would be much more likely to
:19:57. > :20:00.stay in work longer and earn more money. It is a net positive, but
:20:01. > :20:05.that is now called into question. Let's unpick some of the detail but
:20:06. > :20:08.first, do you accept the words of David Willets? It says on the basis
:20:09. > :20:15.of the things I read out to you that the just managing face a significant
:20:16. > :20:20.and painful cut in real terms if we continue on the way we are going. I
:20:21. > :20:29.do, in essence. That is the reason why I resigned. I felt Heidi raised
:20:30. > :20:32.that issue as well, that we got the balance wrong. It is right that
:20:33. > :20:36.pensioners get to a certain point, when they are on a level par, doing
:20:37. > :20:41.the right thing over five years Staying with that process has cost
:20:42. > :20:50.us ?18 billion extra this year, in total. It will go on costing another
:20:51. > :20:55.5 billion. Then there is the issue of tax allowances. I want to remind
:20:56. > :21:01.you and viewers what David Cameron told the Conservative conference in
:21:02. > :21:07.2009. If you are a single mother with two children, earning ?150 a
:21:08. > :21:10.week, the withdrawal of your benefits and the additional taxes
:21:11. > :21:18.that you pay me on that for every extra you earn, you keep just 4p.
:21:19. > :21:24.What kind of incentive is that? 30 years ago, this party won and
:21:25. > :21:33.election fighting against 98% tax rates for the Rex richest. I want us
:21:34. > :21:38.today to show even more anger about 96% tax rates for the very poorest
:21:39. > :21:44.in our country. Real anger, and effective rate of over 90%.
:21:45. > :21:48.Universal Credit reduces that. Some will still face, as they lose
:21:49. > :21:53.benefits and pay tax, a marginal rate of over 75%. That is still too
:21:54. > :21:58.high? Yes, it is the collision between those going into work at the
:21:59. > :22:02.moment they start paying tax. A racial Universal Credit is set at
:22:03. > :22:09.65%. You can call that the base marginal tax rate. 1.2 million will
:22:10. > :22:12.face 75%? That is the point about why the allowances are so important.
:22:13. > :22:15.The point about the allowances which viewers might not fully understand
:22:16. > :22:19.is that it was set, as part of Universal Credit, to allow you to
:22:20. > :22:23.get certain people, with certain difficulties, as they cross into
:22:24. > :22:30.work, to retain more benefit before it is tapered away as they go up in
:22:31. > :22:33.hours. A lone parent, who might have various issues, you want her to have
:22:34. > :22:37.a bigger incentive than a single person that does not have the same
:22:38. > :22:41.commitments. It is structured so that somebody who has difficulty
:22:42. > :22:44.going to work, they all have slightly different rates. What
:22:45. > :22:47.happened is that last year a decision was taken to reduce tax
:22:48. > :22:51.credits, and, on the back of that, to reduce allowances. I believe
:22:52. > :22:57.given everything that happened now, we need to restore that to the point
:22:58. > :23:00.where it helps those people crossing over. You say a decision was taken,
:23:01. > :23:05.it was a decision by the former Chancellor George Osborne in the
:23:06. > :23:09.summer budget. Other decisions were taken in successive Budgets to raise
:23:10. > :23:12.the Universal Credit budget, which resulted in the disincentive being
:23:13. > :23:18.higher than many people wanted. Do you accept that has been the
:23:19. > :23:20.consequence of his decisions? I was in the Government, we take
:23:21. > :23:24.collective responsibility. I argued this was not the right way to go,
:23:25. > :23:27.but when you are in you have to stay with it if you lose that argument.
:23:28. > :23:31.There was another attempt before the spending review last year to
:23:32. > :23:36.increase the taper, so the marginal rate would have gone up. I managed
:23:37. > :23:40.to stop that. I'm Sibley saying what we made as a decision last
:23:41. > :23:45.year, given the circumstances and given that the net effect of all of
:23:46. > :23:49.that, I think it is time for the Government to ask the question, if
:23:50. > :23:53.we are in this to help that group of people, Universal Credit is
:23:54. > :23:55.singularly the most powerful tool. One of the Argentine aid in the
:23:56. > :24:01.paper published on Thursday, we are set going on doing two more races of
:24:02. > :24:08.the tax threshold, taking more people out of tax. That has a
:24:09. > :24:13.diminishing effect on the bottom section. Only 25p in that tax rate
:24:14. > :24:18.will help any of those. Most of it goes to middle income? You and I
:24:19. > :24:22.will benefit more from that. With Universal Credit, every pound you
:24:23. > :24:25.put into that will go to the bottom five tenths. That is why I designed
:24:26. > :24:30.it like that. He pressed the button and immediately start to changed
:24:31. > :24:33.circumstances. Should the cuts in Universal Credit that Mr Osborne
:24:34. > :24:39.introduced, against your argument, should they be reversed? I believe
:24:40. > :24:42.so. I believe you can do it even if there is concern about spending I
:24:43. > :24:46.don't believe you need to go through with the continuing raise the tax
:24:47. > :24:54.threshold. Cost is dependent on inflation, but give or take. It is
:24:55. > :24:59.in the Tory manifesto? Has more than doubled. What is in the manifesto,
:25:00. > :25:05.and Lasse Prime Minister made this clear in conference, we want to
:25:06. > :25:09.improve the life chances of people. Today's announcement on the Green
:25:10. > :25:12.paper is what I wrote over the last two and a half years. Big changes
:25:13. > :25:16.necessary to how we deal with sickness benefit. That can now be
:25:17. > :25:19.done because of Universal Credit, because people can go back to work
:25:20. > :25:23.and it tapers away their benefits. It is the most powerful tool to sort
:25:24. > :25:29.our people that live in poverty Universal Credit. We need to make
:25:30. > :25:32.sure it lands positively. If Mr Osborne's cuts were reversed, what
:25:33. > :25:36.you and some of your backbench Tory colleagues want to do, how would
:25:37. > :25:42.that improve the incentives of the working poor, as they try to get on
:25:43. > :25:48.in life? They have to pay more tax, they lose some benefits. How would
:25:49. > :25:52.it improve it? Would many still face a 75% rate? The key question is
:25:53. > :25:57.first and foremost, as people move through income to the point where
:25:58. > :26:01.they are getting taxed, that group will be enormously benefited by the
:26:02. > :26:06.re-emergence of these allowances at the right level. That is what the
:26:07. > :26:11.IFS have said, that is what the Resolution Foundation are saying,
:26:12. > :26:14.and the Centre For Social Justice is saying. You have to get that group,
:26:15. > :26:19.because they are most likely to be drifting into poverty and less
:26:20. > :26:24.incomes are right. Would it help those who face a 75% margin? We
:26:25. > :26:28.don't face that. Exactly right. People much poorer than us do. I
:26:29. > :26:37.would love to get the marginal rate down to testify percent, and lower,.
:26:38. > :26:40.-- down to 65%. It is a balance of how you spend the money. I would
:26:41. > :26:48.prefer to do that rather than necessarily go ahead with threshold
:26:49. > :26:54.razors. I think the coronation of the marginal reduction of 65%,
:26:55. > :26:56.getting it down to 60%, plus more allowances, will allow Universal
:26:57. > :27:00.Credit to get to the group that is going to be, and the report written
:27:01. > :27:04.by the IFS and ourselves, it shows it is going to be the most dynamic
:27:05. > :27:08.and direct ability of a Government to be able to influence the way that
:27:09. > :27:15.people improve their incomes in the bottom five deciles. Would you take
:27:16. > :27:21.on extra work if you knew you were going to lose 75% of it? Even 6 %?
:27:22. > :27:26.This has been my argument all along. Universal Credit can help that
:27:27. > :27:31.enormously. One point that goes missing, 70% of the bottom five
:27:32. > :27:33.deciles will be on Universal Credit. Whatever change you make to
:27:34. > :27:40.Universal Credit has a dramatic and immediate effect I am arguing,
:27:41. > :27:43.genuinely, it is time to rethink this. The Prime Minister wants to
:27:44. > :27:47.make this a priority. I am completely with her on this. I think
:27:48. > :27:53.she made a really good start. To deliver this, we need to... You have
:27:54. > :27:56.a lot of work to do to deliver it. Because it is a manifesto
:27:57. > :28:02.commitment, or because they want to do it, stopping increasing the
:28:03. > :28:04.personal allowances are not acceptable, what about bringing to
:28:05. > :28:10.an end, by the end of the parliament, the pension triple lock
:28:11. > :28:16.that pensioners enjoy to improve and put more money to the working poor?
:28:17. > :28:20.What about that? Well, you are absolutely right that there is now
:28:21. > :28:23.the danger, I think, of a mess balance between the generations
:28:24. > :28:27.Quite rightly at the beginning, when we came in, we have a commitment as
:28:28. > :28:34.a Conservative Party in a manifesto to get pensions back onto earnings.
:28:35. > :28:38.It was moved to a triple lock that guaranteed a minimum. What about
:28:39. > :28:43.ending up now? I understand it is a promise through the Parliament, but
:28:44. > :28:46.after 2020? I am in favour of getting it back to innings and
:28:47. > :28:51.allowing it to rise at reasonable levels. Moving from earnings to the
:28:52. > :28:55.triple lock has cost ?18 billion this year. Here was a high, under
:28:56. > :28:59.pressure, as the Government was scratching around to pay more money
:29:00. > :29:03.out of working age areas, when the budget was almost out of control on
:29:04. > :29:07.the pension side. I'm in favour of helping pensioners, but now they are
:29:08. > :29:10.up to a reasonable level, at a steady rate, that can be afforded by
:29:11. > :29:15.Government, which takes the pressure off, working age people have to pay
:29:16. > :29:26.for that. In years to come, time to end the triple lock
:29:27. > :29:31.and use the savings to help these people we have been talking about?
:29:32. > :29:32.As part of a load of packages, yes. It would also help with the
:29:33. > :29:36.intergenerational fairness argument. Thank you for being with us.
:29:37. > :29:38.Now, a prominent London Imam called Shakeel Begg -
:29:39. > :29:41.who is Chief Imam the Lewisham Islamic Centre - is an extremist.
:29:42. > :29:44.That was the verdict of the judge in a libel action that Mr Begg took
:29:45. > :29:47.against the BBC, after we described him as an Islamic extremist
:29:48. > :29:51.Mr Begg had complained about a short segment in an interview in November
:29:52. > :29:54.2013 with Farooq Murad, the then head of the Muslim Council
:29:55. > :29:56.of Britain, an organisation which claims to represent British
:29:57. > :30:02.In that interview, we described Mr Begg as an extremist speaker
:30:03. > :30:05.who had hailed jihad is the greatest of deeds.
:30:06. > :30:08.From his base of the Lewisham Islamic Centre, Mr Begg has been
:30:09. > :30:12.involved in a number of community organisations, including
:30:13. > :30:15.the Police Independent Advisory Group in Lewisham,
:30:16. > :30:20.Lewisham Council's Advisory Council on Religious Education
:30:21. > :30:23.and as a volunteer chaplain at Lewisham Hospital.
:30:24. > :30:28.But in his judgment, Mr Justice Haddon-Cave called
:30:29. > :30:31.Mr Begg a Jekyll and Hyde character - a trusted figure in his local
:30:32. > :30:34.community, but when talking to predominantly Muslim audiences
:30:35. > :30:39.he shed the cloak of respectability and revealed the horns of extremism.
:30:40. > :30:42.The judge cited one speech made by Mr Begg at a rally
:30:43. > :30:45.outside Belmarsh Prisonm- the high security prison that houses
:30:46. > :30:48.terrorists - as particularly sinister.
:30:49. > :30:51.The judge said the imam was expressing admiration and praise
:30:52. > :30:57.Following Friday's judgment, the hospital trust have told us that
:30:58. > :31:01.Mr Begg's status as a voluntary chaplain has been terminated.
:31:02. > :31:05.We have been told by Lewisham Council he is no longer
:31:06. > :31:06.on their Religious Education Committee.
:31:07. > :31:08.The Metropolitan Police have confirmed that
:31:09. > :31:13.Mr Begg remains a member of their Independent Advisory Group
:31:14. > :31:23.in Lewisham, as well as the borough's faith group.
:31:24. > :31:27.I am joined by Haras Rafiq, chief executive of the Quilliam
:31:28. > :31:34.Foundation. Welcome to the programme. I have here in my hand a
:31:35. > :31:40.statement from the trustees of the Lewisham Islamic Centre. They reject
:31:41. > :31:42.the judge's ruling as fanciful and say they are unequivocal and
:31:43. > :31:49.unwavering in their support of Shakeel Begg as their head imam
:31:50. > :31:53.What do you make of that? To be honest, it doesn't surprise me. At
:31:54. > :31:57.the end of the day he is only the imam of that mosque because he
:31:58. > :32:03.belongs to the same theological fundamentalist views that the mosque
:32:04. > :32:07.would portray. If they were to say he was an extremist, they would be
:32:08. > :32:11.saying in fact that they have allowed extremist preaching and
:32:12. > :32:16.extremist theology within their walls. I think this is a very
:32:17. > :32:23.important decision and a very important judgment by the judge
:32:24. > :32:27.First of all, these people like to operate in a linear, under a veneer
:32:28. > :32:32.of respectability. When that veneer is taken away, there are a number of
:32:33. > :32:36.things that can happen. First of all, the BBC did very well to stand
:32:37. > :32:43.by their guns and say, we're not going to be intimidated by somebody
:32:44. > :32:47.who is threatening to taking -- to take us to court for potential
:32:48. > :32:52.libel. Many other media companies have done that in the past and
:32:53. > :32:57.people have capitulated. Also, this has exposed him. Legally now, here's
:32:58. > :33:01.some deal can be classified as an extremist preacher, somebody who
:33:02. > :33:05.promotes religious violence. I think the mosque really needs to take a
:33:06. > :33:09.step back and say, how we part of the problem that we are facing
:33:10. > :33:18.within society? Or are we going to be part of the solution? It really
:33:19. > :33:23.concerns me. The High Court judge says that Mr Begg's speeches were
:33:24. > :33:30.consistent with an extremist Salafist is the most worldview. What
:33:31. > :33:40.is Salafist is and how widespread is it in UK mosques? -- mosque. It
:33:41. > :33:43.comes from the Middle East. It is from Saudi Arabia. The enemy for
:33:44. > :33:52.them was the old colonial Ottoman Empire. There is the quiet Salafist
:33:53. > :33:54.to get some with their lives, lives outside society. There is a
:33:55. > :33:58.revolutionary who tries to convert other people to their worldview And
:33:59. > :34:06.then there is the Salafist jihad ease. People like Islamic State etc.
:34:07. > :34:08.We have seen of increased in recent decades because of money that has,
:34:09. > :34:14.growing from the Middle East. When that is mixed with a political
:34:15. > :34:18.ideology, it becomes potent. Do we have a political -- particular
:34:19. > :34:24.problem in Britain with this in our mosques? Absolutely. Without the
:34:25. > :34:27.theology that says hate the other, hate other Muslims, that
:34:28. > :34:32.excommunicate other people, that says it is OK to fight and is good
:34:33. > :34:36.to fight when you have got an enemy, we wouldn't really have a jihadi
:34:37. > :34:44.problem. Really that is something we have to tackle. The number of
:34:45. > :34:49.mosques and institutions supporting Salafist and Islam is has been on
:34:50. > :34:53.the increase. Do we have a problem with what the judge called Jekyll
:34:54. > :34:59.and Hyde characters who hide their extremism except when they are
:35:00. > :35:04.speaking to specific groups? Absolutely. One of the things we
:35:05. > :35:09.have focused on in the past, a number of hate preachers now in
:35:10. > :35:12.prison, people like Anjem Choudary, and everybody focused on them. But
:35:13. > :35:16.there is a range of people operating under that level. People who will
:35:17. > :35:21.show one face to the community because they actually need that for
:35:22. > :35:25.a respectability. They need that for a legitimacy. They need that to
:35:26. > :35:29.operate. When they are behind closed doors and talking to their
:35:30. > :35:34.constitution, that is when you will see the real face of what these
:35:35. > :35:38.people believe. It is an increasing phenomenon. We are seeing it more.
:35:39. > :35:45.And we're going to carry on seeing it. Not just has the Lewisham mosque
:35:46. > :35:50.stuck by him, but given the clarity of the judge's ruling, are you
:35:51. > :35:54.surprised that the Metropolitan police would wish to continue with
:35:55. > :35:57.Mr Begg as an adviser? I'm absolutely shocked that that
:35:58. > :36:03.decision. What Uzzy going to do Advise them on how to deal with
:36:04. > :36:06.extremist preachers and promote religiously motivated violence? I
:36:07. > :36:12.don't know what he's going to advise them on. Because we now have a judge
:36:13. > :36:14.that has ruled against him and actually classified him as an
:36:15. > :36:19.extremist and somebody who promotes religious violence, we actually have
:36:20. > :36:24.a possibility for the CPS to actually prosecute him. There is a
:36:25. > :36:27.law that has been in place since 2005 called religiously motivated
:36:28. > :36:33.violence. If he has been classified as somebody who promotes this, there
:36:34. > :36:37.is a potential for the CPS to prosecute. I want to called into
:36:38. > :36:40.question other organisations, interfaith organisations, other
:36:41. > :36:47.Muslims groups, who say they want to fight extremism, I call on them to
:36:48. > :36:56.say, this guy is an extremist preacher, we should cut our ties
:36:57. > :37:00.from him. This was a very high risk strategy by the BBC. The exposure
:37:01. > :37:06.could have been over ?1.5 million of licence payers money. Will this make
:37:07. > :37:12.it more difficult for Jekyll and Hyde characters to behave as Mr Begg
:37:13. > :37:16.has behaved? Absolutely. It will do. One of the things they will now have
:37:17. > :37:23.to make sure is that they are a lot more careful. Careful with what they
:37:24. > :37:27.say to their own constituency. It won't solve the theological problem.
:37:28. > :37:32.But it will actually stop other people from operating in this manner
:37:33. > :37:35.and allow other media organisations to have the confidence to expose
:37:36. > :37:38.them when they do. Haras Rafiq, thank you for joining us.
:37:39. > :37:40.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:41. > :37:43.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:37:44. > :37:56.Hello, I'm Julia George. the Week Ahead.
:37:57. > :38:00.This is the Sunday Politics in the south-east.
:38:01. > :38:08.Coming up later: Our farmers get ?3 billion
:38:09. > :38:12.After 2020, no cash is guar`nteed, so will Brexit mean the end
:38:13. > :38:23.Joining us in the studio to talk about that and our other stories
:38:24. > :38:25.are Caroline Lucas, the Green MP for Brighton P`vilion,
:38:26. > :38:27.and also the co-leader of the party Maria Caulfield,
:38:28. > :38:33.Now, we've all seen the images of fires burning as the French
:38:34. > :38:35.authorities demolished the refugee camp known as the Jungle.
:38:36. > :38:37.The fate of hundreds of unaccompanied children
:38:38. > :38:42.Now the chaos of Calais seels to have crossed the Channel,
:38:43. > :38:45.with some local councils saxing they won't be able to cope with
:38:46. > :38:51.As the camp is cleared in C`lais on this side of the channel,
:38:52. > :38:53.there are concerns in Kent about the council's ability
:38:54. > :38:55.to support any more young, unaccompanied children.
:38:56. > :39:00.The council leader said resources are already at breaking point.
:39:01. > :39:02.The impact of carrying some 140 young, unaccompanied minors
:39:03. > :39:09.Not just on KCC's services, but on health services,
:39:10. > :39:16.I think it's unreasonable for the Home Office to expect
:39:17. > :39:18.Kent County Council and the ratepayers of Kent to go
:39:19. > :39:21.on supporting that number of young people.
:39:22. > :39:23.The national transfer schemd for unaccompanied child migrants
:39:24. > :39:27.was introduced by Government in July to ease the pressure
:39:28. > :39:32.It is estimated that up to 76 councils out of 152 across Dngland
:39:33. > :39:36.Here in the south-east, Brighton and Hove City Council
:39:37. > :39:38.is currently caring for 41 children, including some under
:39:39. > :39:43.East Sussex is looking after 17 children and has
:39:44. > :39:51.West Sussex has 81 children and has also opted into the national scheme.
:39:52. > :39:53.Medway Council is caring for just three children,
:39:54. > :39:57.it has chosen not to take p`rt in the national transfer scheme
:39:58. > :39:59.The Local Government Associ`tion said more needs to be done to help
:40:00. > :40:02.fund the cost to councils and to encourage local
:40:03. > :40:06.The Home Secretary was pressed on the scheme in the Commons.
:40:07. > :40:08.We are fortunate that sufficient local authorities have come
:40:09. > :40:14.We will still need more over the next few weeks.
:40:15. > :40:19.So, if any members of Parli`ment would like to volunteer thehr local
:40:20. > :40:22.authorities or urge them to do so, they would be most welcome.
:40:23. > :40:24.Most authorities are aware of the cost and the rate
:40:25. > :40:27.the Government pays, and I hope they will considdr that
:40:28. > :40:29.adequate compensation in order to volunteer to take the chhldren.
:40:30. > :40:35.So, with local councils alrdady under financial pressures,
:40:36. > :40:37.will others step forward to take in children yet to arrive?
:40:38. > :40:39.Joining us now from Chatham is Alan Jarrett.
:40:40. > :40:43.Alan is the Conservative leader of Medway Council.
:40:44. > :40:45.Alan Jarrett, you are only looking after three unaccompanied asylum
:40:46. > :40:47.seeker children in the Medw`y towns at the moment.
:40:48. > :40:49.You are not signed up to the voluntary
:40:50. > :40:57.Well, we are not actually looking after three,
:40:58. > :41:05.We have actually got 110 of Kent's allocation here in Medway.
:41:06. > :41:08.We have actually got 113 whhch, with the exception of Kent,
:41:09. > :41:21.is significantly more than `ny of the others on your clip.
:41:22. > :41:23.Yes, but Kent is entirely responsible for funding those
:41:24. > :41:26.children and three was the figure at your authority gave us
:41:27. > :41:30.I'm telling you what the situation is.
:41:31. > :41:32.We have 113 unaccompanied asylum seeker children there
:41:33. > :41:34.in Medway and it's not just a question of cost,
:41:35. > :41:38.What that does is use up our capacity here in Medway,
:41:39. > :41:41.so we have to place our own looked after children outside of Mddway
:41:42. > :41:45.How many children have you had to place outside of Medway
:41:46. > :41:51.As of today, 179 at a cost of anything up to ?1700
:41:52. > :42:09.They have been in various counties and various areas around Medway
:42:10. > :42:11.Wherever we can find placement for them.
:42:12. > :42:16.Kent, we are talking about venturing out of county and, naturallx,
:42:17. > :42:18.they were quoting you, which really isn't that far
:42:19. > :42:25.Some are actually in Kent, outside of Medway.
:42:26. > :42:30.Medway is a unitary, as you would know.
:42:31. > :42:32.It's wherever we can find a location for them.
:42:33. > :42:33.As close as possible, quite obviously.
:42:34. > :42:35.Let's talk about the cost, because this, clearly,
:42:36. > :42:38.has been one of the arguments that you, personally, have
:42:39. > :42:41.made about looking after asylum seeking children.
:42:42. > :42:42.You are only currently funding three.
:42:43. > :42:46.To be clear, you have more but you are funding the care of thrde.
:42:47. > :42:48.What are your concerns about the cost, if you
:42:49. > :42:56.Quite simply, the impact it has on the wider budget.
:42:57. > :42:58.We have 275,000 people here in Medway, we have large
:42:59. > :43:04.numbers of looked after children, over 400.
:43:05. > :43:10.We have the out of area placements that I spoke to you about.
:43:11. > :43:12.In common with all upper tidr authorities, we have
:43:13. > :43:17.You make it sound as though the Government isn't making any
:43:18. > :43:18.contribution to the care of the children.
:43:19. > :43:22.In fact, they have just increased it by 20%.
:43:23. > :43:24.The money that is given to local authorities,
:43:25. > :43:27.like yours, and it does seel striking that you are the only
:43:28. > :43:30.council in the south-east that isn't prepared to take national transfer
:43:31. > :43:36.transfer children and you, by contrast to a council
:43:37. > :43:39.like Brighton and Hove, which is a similar sized
:43:40. > :43:42.at the moment and are taking more and you have three.
:43:43. > :43:45.Talk me through the exact costs that you are worried about.
:43:46. > :43:47.What is the cost of foster care, for instance?
:43:48. > :43:49.Because that one of the big costs, isn't it?
:43:50. > :43:53.Well, it's anything up to ?465 per child in Medway.
:43:54. > :43:56.You have to bear in mind, you use Brighton as a comparison
:43:57. > :43:59.but you have to bear in mind that Brighton receives substanti`lly more
:44:00. > :44:01.than Medway in terms of revenue support grant.
:44:02. > :44:09.The fact that we have lost ?40 million in Government grants.
:44:10. > :44:12.While the Government is offdring a small amount with one hand,
:44:13. > :44:14.it's taking away huge quanthties with the other.
:44:15. > :44:18.Well, you talk about offering a small amount of money.
:44:19. > :44:20.I have done the sums, based on the most expensive foster
:44:21. > :44:23.care package you offer to pdople in the Medway towns,
:44:24. > :44:25.which comes to a total of ?22,600 per year.
:44:26. > :44:33.The Government is offering you ?41,600 per year.
:44:34. > :44:36.Where is the problem here, in terms of the sums?
:44:37. > :44:38.You're not listening to me, are you, Julie?
:44:39. > :44:48.We have 113 unaccompanied asylum seekers here in Medway,
:44:49. > :44:51.you have talked about areas you talked about in your clhp,
:44:52. > :44:53.and that is counties, large counties who are taking
:44:54. > :44:58.It's not entirely cost, its internal capacity within Medway.
:44:59. > :45:02.You were the one who was telling me there was a problem with costs.
:45:03. > :45:10.Let's bring in the guests in the studio, Alan, do stay whth us.
:45:11. > :45:16.Alan Jarrett has a point, he has a limited amount of loney
:45:17. > :45:18.and his chief priority, Caroline Lucas, is to
:45:19. > :45:23.of the Medway towns, includhng looked after children there.
:45:24. > :45:26.So he is telling us he can't, at the moment, take in any
:45:27. > :45:29.Well, I don't know the situ`tion in Medway very well.
:45:30. > :45:32.What I can say is that I agree that we need more finances overall.
:45:33. > :45:38.We do need more finances from Government but,
:45:39. > :45:42.when you compare what Medwax is doing, and that is just with
:45:43. > :45:44.say, the county next door, you've got over 700 looked
:45:45. > :45:49.We need more councils stepping up to the plate.
:45:50. > :45:52.60 years ago, when it was thme of the Second World War,
:45:53. > :45:53.our grandparents, together with the British Government,
:45:54. > :45:56.were responsible for taking 10, 00 children then from the Nazis.
:45:57. > :45:58.They stepped up to the platd because there was a crisis.
:45:59. > :46:12.Although I have sympathy with the issue around the ftnding,
:46:13. > :46:14.we do need to press the Govdrnment around the funding, it seems
:46:15. > :46:21.to me that there has to be more ambition,
:46:22. > :46:23.more courage, really, from councils right across this
:46:24. > :46:26.country to make sure that we are stepping up to the plate
:46:27. > :46:29.to help people who are absolutely desperate right now.
:46:30. > :46:32.Maria Caulfield, within the immigration act that was voted
:46:33. > :46:34.on this year, there is the capacity to make it mandatory.
:46:35. > :46:37.So, people like Alan Jarrett would not be given a choice,
:46:38. > :46:39.he would be forced to take ` number of unaccompanied asylum
:46:40. > :46:55.Should it be made that way, to make it fair, not just
:46:56. > :46:58.for unaccompanied children but also for communities around the country?
:46:59. > :47:01.I think it's something we do need to look at but, if you take may
:47:02. > :47:03.county, for example, East Sussex, a few weeks ago,
:47:04. > :47:06.they didn't have any childrdn and now they are rapidly taking
:47:07. > :47:08.children and their figures are actually a bit like Alan's
:47:09. > :47:12.in that they don't reflect the true number because they are takhng
:47:13. > :47:16.They are taking on a lot more children than the figures stggest.
:47:17. > :47:18.It isn't fair on councils in counties like Kent,
:47:19. > :47:25.It's not fair that Kent takd a quarter of all the childrdn.
:47:26. > :47:27.That's not fair on the county, but it's also not fair
:47:28. > :47:30.on the children because thex need quite a lot of input,
:47:31. > :47:32.in terms of counselling, hotsing, schooling and that needs to be
:47:33. > :47:35.spread out so they get the best welcome possible.
:47:36. > :47:44.You seem to have had a change of heart on the unaccompanidd
:47:45. > :47:47.Back in the spring, in justifying your vote surrounding
:47:48. > :47:49.unaccompanied refugee children being brought to this country
:47:50. > :47:54.from Europe, from Calais and from the rest of Europe,
:47:55. > :47:59.you said, "Although I fully understand the situation in Europe
:48:00. > :48:02.are refugees and that it's far from ideal, it should be relembered
:48:03. > :48:09.Hang on, let me just make the point that, on the template to thd,
:48:10. > :48:12.you tweeted, "Very pleased to be any chamber as David Burrows MP asks
:48:13. > :48:14.the Home Secretary to fast-track child refugees
:48:15. > :48:20.The reason for that is, although I voted against the original Dubs
:48:21. > :48:25.Amendment, that was just about the Calais children.
:48:26. > :48:28.The Dubs Amendment that we finally voted for, which was on the 9th
:48:29. > :48:30.of May this year, included taking children from other camps,
:48:31. > :48:36.I met with Yazidi children who didn't make it to Calais
:48:37. > :48:38.murdered, they were tortured and raped themselves.
:48:39. > :48:56.It should be that we take both, not just children from Calahs.
:48:57. > :49:00.When that was in the Dubs alendment, I was very happy to support it.
:49:01. > :49:03.Let's go back to Alan Jarrett for a moment.
:49:04. > :49:06.You heard Paul Carter in our report that the beginning, Alan Jarrett.
:49:07. > :49:08.He's conservative leader of the local authority
:49:09. > :49:11.They are currently looking `fter 746 unaccompanied asylum
:49:12. > :49:13.You must have conversations with Paul.
:49:14. > :49:17.What does he say to you when he points out that you are not
:49:18. > :49:19.there to take any of those children find yourself?
:49:20. > :49:22.The conversations I have a poor very positive.
:49:23. > :49:34.He understands the situation here in Medway, just as much as we do.
:49:35. > :49:37.You have to bear in mind, when you look at the numbers,
:49:38. > :49:39.113 versus 700, Kent is six times larger than Medway.
:49:40. > :49:41.But they are paying for that as well.
:49:42. > :49:44.Sorry to tell over you, but they are paying for that 11
:49:45. > :49:48.That is right and, because we've got those 113, they are using up
:49:49. > :49:51.our capacity in Medway, which is why we have got 178 out
:49:52. > :49:54.The maths are quite obvious, Julia, aren't they?
:49:55. > :49:57.With the best will in the world we can't do what we can't do.
:49:58. > :49:59.He can't do what he can't do, Caroline.
:50:00. > :50:03.You've been talking about it, particularly the children
:50:04. > :50:06.My point is that while we'rd quibbling hair now, those children
:50:07. > :50:10.are in a desperate situation and I raised it in Parliament just
:50:11. > :50:12.now because we had 40 children last night sleeping under a bridge
:50:13. > :50:14.because there was nowhere else for them to go.
:50:15. > :50:17.We know that when the camps are cleared, many of these
:50:18. > :50:20.They get taken up by traffickers and we don't know
:50:21. > :50:32.This is a real crisis and not the particular financial
:50:33. > :50:35.situation of individual councils, if it is the case that Alan cannot
:50:36. > :50:46.then please be asking the Home Secretary for more help.
:50:47. > :50:49.Ultimately, we have all got to be doing more and I think,
:50:50. > :50:51.certainly, as you say, when you hear a council that
:50:52. > :50:56.has three next door to some that have 746, it has got to be clear
:50:57. > :50:58.that something more has to be done to make it more fair
:50:59. > :51:02.Thank you to Alan Jarrett, thank you very much joining us
:51:03. > :51:06.Now, we all know that agrictlture in the south-east is big business.
:51:07. > :51:09.Nearly ?400 million in 2014, but when we leave the EU,
:51:10. > :51:12.if farming takes a hit, as it currently gets three billion
:51:13. > :51:14.pounds of subsidies, Brexit could mean an end to both.
:51:15. > :51:17.Will we still be able to bux British and preserve the delicate b`lance
:51:18. > :51:19.between farming and nature here in the south-east?
:51:20. > :51:25.Elmlee National Nature Reserve on the Isle of Sheppey
:51:26. > :51:32.is one of England's few surviving wildernesses.
:51:33. > :51:36.Swathes of protected mash l`nd dealing with birds and wildlife
:51:37. > :51:39.Here, conservation and farmhng go hand-in-hand, thanks
:51:40. > :51:43.The only farmers in the UK to run this kind of reserve.
:51:44. > :51:55.It used to be wheat 35 years ago, wall to wall wheat.
:51:56. > :51:57.We changed that from wheat to extensive livestock grazhng.
:51:58. > :52:00.In the referendum, Phil votdd to remain but now he thinks Brexit
:52:01. > :52:02.could be a defining moment for agriculture and the envhronment.
:52:03. > :52:06.I think Brexit is a tremendous opportunity, regardless
:52:07. > :52:09.Let's turn this into a real opportunity to integrate
:52:10. > :52:12.I think it's a once in a lifetime opportunity
:52:13. > :52:15.Farming shapes the landscapd of the south-east.
:52:16. > :52:18.Employing more than 50,000 people and bringing more than ?383 million
:52:19. > :52:27.Critical for food production, it's also linked
:52:28. > :52:29.to nature and farmers receive generous EU subsidies
:52:30. > :52:41.But with a wholesale rethink of farm funding
:52:42. > :52:46.could there be a shift to work large-scale agribushness?
:52:47. > :52:49.What they're going to see, what we will need to see more
:52:50. > :52:52.of is smaller, more mixed f`rms farms that are using a high
:52:53. > :52:55.diversity of crops, mixed rotations, farms that are mixing crops
:52:56. > :52:58.and animals, and all of those things, we have been seen ldss
:52:59. > :53:02.It would be an utter disastdr if, when we go down the free tr`de
:53:03. > :53:05.route, we begin to look at farming subsidies in that context, we finish
:53:06. > :53:08.Nothing would be worse for our environment unfortunately.
:53:09. > :53:10.The Government said it is committed to maintaining current levels
:53:11. > :53:14.With wildlife in steep declhne, it has pledged to restore UK's
:53:15. > :53:22.But with 70% of our environlental laws emanating from the EU,
:53:23. > :53:25.The mood music has not been good around this.
:53:26. > :53:34.When you listen to the Brexht rhetoric about doing away
:53:35. > :53:40.with Brussels "red tape" and you look at how much of that
:53:41. > :53:42.so-called "red tape" is acttally about environmental standards,
:53:43. > :53:44.then we have every good reason to be worried.
:53:45. > :53:46.Away from the farm gate, consumers want fresh,
:53:47. > :53:51.Access to the single market and free movement of labour are front
:53:52. > :53:56.But should food production be more of a priority?
:53:57. > :54:05.We are likely to all be imp`cted by food prices and a varietx
:54:06. > :54:19.There is an essence of, although agriculture and food policy
:54:20. > :54:22.is likely to be left quite late in the discussions, it prob`bly
:54:23. > :54:31.a little bit further forward into the fore.
:54:32. > :54:34.Elmlee feels like worlds aw`y from Westminster and the unwielding
:54:35. > :54:37.Will farming families and precious landscape like this survive
:54:38. > :54:39.without the financial support of Europe and the protection
:54:40. > :54:43.Caroline Lucas, our farmer in the film there, Phil Merrick
:54:44. > :54:47.A once in a lifetime opporttnity, in fact, he said, to integr`te
:54:48. > :54:52.Is there any chance you could share his optimisl?
:54:53. > :54:55.Not overall but I do agree that the common agricultural policy
:54:56. > :54:57.was not a great policy when it came to the environment.
:54:58. > :55:03.And so, it is true that, in theory at least,
:55:04. > :55:06.there is the potential now to be able to get away from some
:55:07. > :55:09.of the industrialised agrictlture that was at the heart of thd common
:55:10. > :55:11.agricultural policy and, in theory, there is a potential
:55:12. > :55:13.to be paying farmers so-called public money for public goods.
:55:14. > :55:15.In other words, paying them for environmental goods
:55:16. > :55:19.I say "in theory" because I agree that, in coming discussions,
:55:20. > :55:22.when it comes to ensuring enough money goes to farmers
:55:23. > :55:24.and that those environmental goods are actually delivered,
:55:25. > :55:27.that could be a real challenge because there are so many other
:55:28. > :55:37.people who want a part of that money as well.
:55:38. > :55:40.Interesting that Andrea Leadsom has said just this week that shd wants
:55:41. > :55:47.to make this the generation that hands over the countryside
:55:48. > :55:49.in a better state to their children than has happened in
:55:50. > :55:54.Rest your voice for a moment, let's go to Maria Caulfield.
:55:55. > :55:56.President of the Wildlife Trust Tony Juniper's point
:55:57. > :56:06.is that he is concerned that we will end up relying less
:56:07. > :56:09.-- more, not less on the production of domestic food and
:56:10. > :56:12.agribusiness and that will lean damage to the rural environlent
:56:13. > :56:15.Do you think your government can prevent that from happening?
:56:16. > :56:17.We do absolutely need to help farmers.
:56:18. > :56:19.I've got a large farming community in my constituencx
:56:20. > :56:22.and they are the gatekeepers of the environment.
:56:23. > :56:24.If we don't have farmers, we don't have farms,
:56:25. > :56:28.What I'm seeing at the moment and why I'm so enthusiastic
:56:29. > :56:33.that we have an opportunity to make life better for farmers
:56:34. > :56:36.is that we see nearly 20 dahry farmers a month leaving the industry
:56:37. > :56:40.In my constituency, I've was farms in Polgate...
:56:41. > :56:47.They are being concreted ovdr. Its developers buying the land, not
:56:48. > :56:54.other farmers. If we do not fix it, we will lose those farmers. But if
:56:55. > :56:57.we go for a hard Brexit, we will be subject to different rules `nd the
:56:58. > :57:01.kind of imports coming in whll be undercutting precisely the kind of
:57:02. > :57:05.food economy that we want to have in this country. I care deeply about
:57:06. > :57:08.our farmers, too. I wanted be able to make a living doing good,
:57:09. > :57:13.sustainable farming, which hs what they want to do. If you produce is
:57:14. > :57:18.coming in from outside the TK, that'll undercut them and it will
:57:19. > :57:25.get worse every go very hard Brexit. Maria, what you be the priority If
:57:26. > :57:30.we can reinvent farming, wh`t is the most important thing? The most
:57:31. > :57:34.important thing is to look the various types of farming and help
:57:35. > :57:41.farmers diversify so they are able to keep their farms Goering. At the
:57:42. > :57:44.moment, if you to farmers about land prices, they have been decilated,
:57:45. > :57:49.either by cheaper imports from places like New Zealand and with the
:57:50. > :57:53.pound when it aside, it was very expensive for them to explore. We
:57:54. > :57:58.need to be able to support farmers when times are tough so thex can
:57:59. > :58:05.keep going. A very quick thought, Caroline Lewis, Google just about
:58:06. > :58:11.the Government funding. Thex have pledged to keep it up for the
:58:12. > :58:14.foreseeable future. Yes, but this is another area of uncertainty that has
:58:15. > :58:17.been caught by Brexit. I fe`r that it is precisely those cheap imports
:58:18. > :58:22.that we talked about that wd will see more of it we get a hard Brexit
:58:23. > :58:24.and that means it'll be harder to maintain environment protection that
:58:25. > :58:30.we want in our countryside `nd that the farmers want as well. Thank you.
:58:31. > :58:40.Kindly other news you may h`ve missed, 60 seconds with Katd Ford. A
:58:41. > :58:43.Sussex clinical commissioning group has installed a special advhser to
:58:44. > :58:49.transport service to perforler. The transport service to perforler. The
:58:50. > :58:59.health Minister Phil Garner on the issue in the Commons. The overseeing
:59:00. > :59:03.of plans in terms of contintity of service will be changed in terms of
:59:04. > :59:07.looking into contract. The chief executive Gatwick Airport s`ys we
:59:08. > :59:11.will look at expanding Gatwhck if the time comes. It follows `
:59:12. > :59:15.Government and Alison to back a third runway at Heathrow. Wd think
:59:16. > :59:18.we put forward a very strong case for Gatwick expansion that was the
:59:19. > :59:22.best case but one thing is that certain, what we will do is maintain
:59:23. > :59:27.our offer to Government bad Gatwick and a very credible scheme. And
:59:28. > :59:31.gambling Minister Tracey Crouch has launched a review into fixed odds
:59:32. > :59:32.betting machines amid concerns that they could than people. The
:59:33. > :59:43.announcement was welcomed bx the announcement was welcomed bx the
:59:44. > :59:46.leader of the Medway Labour group. The Government has had years to
:59:47. > :59:54.decide on airport expansion. We have 50 seconds to talk about it. Maria,
:59:55. > :59:58.was on the right call? Yes, I am pleased we have made the right
:59:59. > :00:02.decision and I think the expansion will be successful. We have not had
:00:03. > :00:07.an expansion since the Second World War at Heathrow and with passenger
:00:08. > :00:11.percentage is increasing by 5% per year, it is a good decision.
:00:12. > :00:17.Caroline, you did not want `ny, did you? No. I did not want any. They
:00:18. > :00:23.should not have been a question of Heathrow or Gatwick, aged the - it
:00:24. > :00:25.should have been a question should be expand anywhere? The ads should
:00:26. > :00:29.have been no. Look at the P`ris have been no. Look at the P`ris
:00:30. > :00:32.climate talks last year. Maria talks about the expansion of aviation but
:00:33. > :00:38.that is because of leisure, not business. Thank you. And th`nk you
:00:39. > :00:42.from battling a very sore throat. Thank you, Caroline Lucas. Thank
:00:43. > :00:56.you, rear Caulfield. We will be back next week. Season.
:00:57. > :01:01.Barely more than a week now until polling day,
:01:02. > :01:11.and a new revelation rocks the US Presidential election campaign.
:01:12. > :01:14.If it wasn't bizarre enough, it just got more bizarre.
:01:15. > :01:16.The FBI have reopened their investigation into Hillary Clinton's
:01:17. > :01:18.use of private email servers whilst she was Secretary
:01:19. > :01:26.of State, after the discovery of further emails.
:01:27. > :01:31.Though not on her laptop or even the State Department.
:01:32. > :01:34.Donald Trump is saying that it's bigger than Watergate -
:01:35. > :01:36.so could it swing the election in his favour?
:01:37. > :01:38.We spoke to top US pollster, Frank Luntz.
:01:39. > :01:42.The FBI investigation is happening so late in the election process
:01:43. > :01:46.that it would be very difficult to derail a Clinton victory.
:01:47. > :01:49.That said, if there is one thing that could keep Hillary Clinton
:01:50. > :01:54.from the presidency, it's an FBI investigation.
:01:55. > :01:57.But there's still only four states that really matter, Florida, Ohio,
:01:58. > :02:02.Right now, Clinton has beyond the margin of error leads
:02:03. > :02:09.This would have to have a truly significant impact for the election
:02:10. > :02:16.There is a point about a week ago when I was prepared to say that
:02:17. > :02:22.Clinton had a 95% chance of winning this election.
:02:23. > :02:28.Based on what has happened in the last 48 hours,
:02:29. > :02:32.It is still very likely, but I wouldn't bet on it.
:02:33. > :02:36.I thought the 2000 election would be the best election of my lifetime,
:02:37. > :02:40.And then I thought 2008 would be amazing, because we had two
:02:41. > :02:44.challenger candidates and the first African-American President.
:02:45. > :02:53.It is ugly, it's painful, it is as negative as anything
:02:54. > :02:59.The public is angry, the country, overall, is frustrated.
:03:00. > :03:05.But for entertainment value, these candidates probably should
:03:06. > :03:09.have charged us money, because it's better than any movie
:03:10. > :03:11.at ever seen, it's better than any TV show.
:03:12. > :03:23.That was Frank Luntz. He may be right or wrong about Mrs Clinton
:03:24. > :03:32.still having an 80% chance of winning. I would bet on an 80%
:03:33. > :03:36.chance? Yes, absolutely. I spoke to a high-profile American pollster and
:03:37. > :03:41.strategist last night and he took a rather different view to Frank
:03:42. > :03:44.Luntz. He thought, and I think some other high-profile commentators
:03:45. > :03:49.agree, that this is actually much more serious than some people
:03:50. > :03:54.realise. There are an awful lot of undecided voters out there looking
:03:55. > :03:58.for an excuse to vote Trump. They do not like what they see in either
:03:59. > :04:03.candidate. But because this FBI probe is not going to conclude
:04:04. > :04:08.before the election, the question, the doubt over Hillary Clinton,
:04:09. > :04:13.gives them an excuse to back Trump. The thing that will play on the
:04:14. > :04:17.minds of the voters is, could the 100 day honeymoon turning to the 100
:04:18. > :04:23.day divorce? Which even be impeached? It may give some people
:04:24. > :04:27.an excuse not to vote for Mrs Clinton. It could provide a problem
:04:28. > :04:35.in terms of energising her base The battle ground almost matters more
:04:36. > :04:41.than the polls. Florida and Pennsylvania have been trending to
:04:42. > :04:47.Mrs Clinton. Mr Trump needs to win both. He does not get in without
:04:48. > :04:52.both. He needs both. Just coming up in the latest BBC News, the
:04:53. > :04:58.Washington Post tracking poll, Mrs Clinton is now only one point ahead
:04:59. > :05:03.in the national poll. One point Even given my caveat that the state
:05:04. > :05:09.battles are most important. That is incredibly close? It is. Polls
:05:10. > :05:17.yesterday showed Trump nationally closing of. -- up. There is a clear
:05:18. > :05:20.trend and movement. This has reinforced everything that people
:05:21. > :05:24.who have a problem with Hillary Clinton know about Hillary Clinton.
:05:25. > :05:29.Trump is running this insurgent campaign. We have seen at here with
:05:30. > :05:33.Brexit. If you are running an insurgent campaign, you want to be
:05:34. > :05:37.against the ultimate establishment insider and that is what Hillary
:05:38. > :05:43.Clinton is. I suggested it was bizarre. Fathoming the behaviour of
:05:44. > :05:47.the FBI is interesting as well. This is a separate investigation into a
:05:48. > :05:52.former congressman, Anthony Wiener, who had done all sorts of things. He
:05:53. > :06:00.seemed to be sex text thing a minor. A 15-year-old girl. The FBI
:06:01. > :06:07.investigate. They get his laptop to see what else he has been too. In
:06:08. > :06:11.the course of that, his wife, now separated, the closest adviser to
:06:12. > :06:21.Hillary Clinton, they find on the laptop e-mails involving the Clinton
:06:22. > :06:27.server to her. And yet the FBI cannot, it needs now a separate
:06:28. > :06:30.warrant to access these e-mails It hasn't got that yet. It has got a
:06:31. > :06:37.warrant to do the congressman e-mails. On the basis of not knowing
:06:38. > :06:45.the content, this has happened. Yeah. Who knows? He is a Republican,
:06:46. > :06:49.this guy. Earlier this year he was being praised to the hilt by
:06:50. > :06:54.Democrats. Absolutely. The timing is a nightmare for her. You described
:06:55. > :07:00.the whole sequence. There is nothing definitive to doubt in this
:07:01. > :07:06.sequence. All he is saying is he has discovered more e-mails in effect.
:07:07. > :07:13.They are from the congressman's former wife. On Anthony Wiener's
:07:14. > :07:20.laptop, which apparently she used sometimes. But what that shows is
:07:21. > :07:25.that for all the scrutiny of modern politicians, they cannot escape
:07:26. > :07:30.caricature. And as Tim was just saying, her weakness is perceived to
:07:31. > :07:34.be secretive, elitism and complacency about that elitism. And
:07:35. > :07:40.so just the announcement of a reopening of the investigation so
:07:41. > :07:44.fuels that caricature, you have just revealed a poll giving her a 1%
:07:45. > :07:49.lead. That must be related to what has happened. It is without a shred
:07:50. > :07:55.of evidence that she has done anything wrong. You can see how
:07:56. > :08:00.because people only see things encourage kids, that is deadly
:08:01. > :08:05.serious. -- in caricature. An American friend of mine said we have
:08:06. > :08:12.got our October surprise but we don't know what it is. The FBI must
:08:13. > :08:19.surely come under massive pressure. It did its -- it did this against
:08:20. > :08:22.the Justice Department. The difficulty the FBI had was that this
:08:23. > :08:27.information, for what it's worth, it came to them. Were they not to have
:08:28. > :08:31.said something and it worked to have come out later, they would have been
:08:32. > :08:36.accused of a massive cover-up. They are dammed if they do, dammed if
:08:37. > :08:40.they don't. There is still time for another surprise. And early November
:08:41. > :08:45.surprise. Who knows if there might still be something that comes out on
:08:46. > :08:49.Donald Trump? This is the first election where I can remember we
:08:50. > :08:54.have had two October surprises already. There are is stuff about
:08:55. > :08:59.tapes knocking around about Donald Trump saying racist things. The
:09:00. > :09:02.Clintons have got a lot of friends. It would be a big surprise if we did
:09:03. > :09:05.not see anything else in the next few days.
:09:06. > :09:11.Just when you think it could not get more interesting, it has. There has
:09:12. > :09:12.been plenty in the papers lately about the Ukip leadership saying
:09:13. > :09:16.unpleasant things about each other. But what about Mr Farage himself?
:09:17. > :09:18.What's he up to? Well, on BBC Two tonight we may
:09:19. > :09:21.find out the answer. Well, I'm led to believe
:09:22. > :09:28.she's very experienced. But I don't think Strictly Come
:09:29. > :09:30.Dancing is for me. That is, unless, of course,
:09:31. > :09:36.you fancy popping a cheeky zero No, I don't think Strictly
:09:37. > :09:40.Come Dancing is for me. Well, you tell Mr Balls he has just
:09:41. > :09:46.lost your programme one viewer. I might have nothing to do these
:09:47. > :10:08.days but, realistically, Well, that wasn't Nigel Farage. It
:10:09. > :10:13.is a BBC comedy on tonight. Nigel Farage gets his life back. A number
:10:14. > :10:19.of runners and riders. Let's come straight down to it. Who would be
:10:20. > :10:24.the next leader of Ukip? Probably Paul Nuttall. He is the favourite.
:10:25. > :10:29.The one who has the backing, not very enthusiastic backing, is Rahim
:10:30. > :10:40.Cassandra. And also Aaron Banks a big donor. The best of a rather weak
:10:41. > :10:51.lot. I think Paul Nuttall should squeak through. I interviewed all
:10:52. > :10:54.three of them this week. Mr Cassandra is a lively character and
:10:55. > :10:58.he knows how to make a few headlines. With a bit of money
:10:59. > :11:01.behind him, anything is possible. This is a guy who has been to the
:11:02. > :11:13.States, who has literally studied what Trump has done. Pees on
:11:14. > :11:20.secondment for the time being. The guy who is his line manager is one
:11:21. > :11:22.of Donald Trump's campaign stop He is extraordinarily right-wing. I am
:11:23. > :11:31.told he kept a picture of Enoch Powell by his bed. Barry Goldwater
:11:32. > :11:38.is one of his heroes, for example. There are other candidates. I would
:11:39. > :11:44.suggest, put out as a hypothesis, Paul Nuttall is Labour's worst
:11:45. > :11:49.nightmare. They are more vulnerable in the North. Paul Nuttall is from
:11:50. > :11:53.Merseyside, a working-class background, performs well on
:11:54. > :11:58.television. He is a really good interviewee. He is one of the best
:11:59. > :12:02.around in politics at the moment. However, I think whoever gets it has
:12:03. > :12:09.a massive task. The clip of this Nigel Farage satire partly shows
:12:10. > :12:14.why. His dominance was overwhelming. He, in many ways, did a brilliant
:12:15. > :12:18.job at keeping the show on the road. The trouble for all new political
:12:19. > :12:23.parties is keeping it going is tough. A very different party, the
:12:24. > :12:27.SDP, with all those glamorous figures in it, lasted eight years,
:12:28. > :12:30.something like that. I think they are in real trouble at the moment
:12:31. > :12:37.because of the implosion we have been seeing in front of our eyes and
:12:38. > :12:46.the ideal -- ideological splits Whoever gets it will face a tough
:12:47. > :12:49.tussle. All three of the main contenders want to put Nigel Farage
:12:50. > :12:53.in the House of Lords. They were falling over themselves to soak up
:12:54. > :12:57.two farads. That is how you win this election.
:12:58. > :13:04.Mr Aaron Banks, who is he putting his money on? He said he supports
:13:05. > :13:09.Rahim. I know Mr Banks is utterly fed with the shenanigans in Ukip. He
:13:10. > :13:13.thinks it is terribly disorganised, dysfunctional and doesn't want a
:13:14. > :13:15.great deal to do with it for the foreseeable future.
:13:16. > :13:20.It is not quite Trump the Clinton but it is interesting. That is it.
:13:21. > :13:26.The Daily Politics is back tomorrow. And all of next week. Jo Coburn will
:13:27. > :13:30.be your next Sunday because I am off to the United States to begin to
:13:31. > :13:37.rehearse presenting the BBC's US election night coverage on the th
:13:38. > :13:38.of November. It will be here on BBC One, BBC
:13:39. > :13:40.world, BBC News Channel and BBC online.
:13:41. > :14:11.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:12. > :14:14.A stone stained with blood and beset with a curse.
:14:15. > :14:18.The Moonstone is of inestimable value in India.
:14:19. > :14:22.Its appointed guardians would move heaven and earth to reclaim it
:14:23. > :14:30.Let us not let the past haunt all of our actions.
:14:31. > :14:31.You've got to do something! It's only you that can!
:14:32. > :14:32.He's a scientist, brilliant apparently.
:14:33. > :14:41.But you may be bringing people over here who did things during the war.
:14:42. > :14:47.I will not work for you. I will not work for the British Government