:00:35. > :00:39.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:40. > :00:42.A row has broken out between Number Ten and former
:00:43. > :00:45.Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,
:00:46. > :00:50.the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.
:00:51. > :00:52.I feel as though I'm one of the people that
:00:53. > :00:56.If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,
:00:57. > :01:07.It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult
:01:08. > :01:10.for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest
:01:11. > :01:14.Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.
:01:15. > :01:16.Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,
:01:17. > :01:18.but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance
:01:19. > :01:46.And in the South East: and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie
:01:47. > :01:50.think of it as an early Christmas present from us.
:01:51. > :01:52.We guarantee you won't be disappointed.
:01:53. > :01:54.And speaking of guaranteed disappointments - I'm joined
:01:55. > :01:56.by three of the busiest little elves in political journalism.
:01:57. > :01:58.It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn.
:01:59. > :02:05.So, we knew relations between Theresa May and some
:02:06. > :02:11.of her backbenchers over Europe weren't exactly a bed of roses.
:02:12. > :02:17.But signs of how fractious things are getting come courtesy of this
:02:18. > :02:20.morning's Mail on Sunday which has the details of a series of texts
:02:21. > :02:23.from one of Mrs May's senior advisers to and concerning
:02:24. > :02:28.the former Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan.
:02:29. > :02:32.Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,
:02:33. > :02:35.and has been pressing the PM to reveal more of her negotiation
:02:36. > :02:42.She's also apparently irked Downing Street by questioning
:02:43. > :02:49.Mrs May's decision to purchase and be photographed in a ?995 pair
:02:50. > :02:54.She said she had "never spent that much money on anything apart
:02:55. > :03:04.Mrs Morgan was due to attend a meeting at Number 10 this week
:03:05. > :03:08.But that invitation seems to be off, after a fairly extraordinary
:03:09. > :03:10.argument by text message with Mrs May's joint chief
:03:11. > :03:20.She texted the MP Alistair Burt, another of those arguing
:03:21. > :03:27.for a so-called soft Brexit, cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation
:03:28. > :03:31.and telling him to not "bring that woman to Number Ten again".
:03:32. > :03:34.The following day Nicky Morgan texted Fiona Hill, saying
:03:35. > :03:36."If you don't like something I have said or done, please
:03:37. > :03:50.If you don't want my views in future meetings you need to tell them."
:03:51. > :03:55.Shortly afterwards she received the reply "Well, he just did.
:03:56. > :04:00.And according to the Mail, Mrs Morgan, who you'll see
:04:01. > :04:02.in our film shortly, has now been formally banned
:04:03. > :04:18.So, Tom, much ado about nothing or telling you about the underlying
:04:19. > :04:22.tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am allowed to choose both. It says
:04:23. > :04:25.something about British politics today, that this is the most
:04:26. > :04:29.important thing we can find to talk about, because the Government are
:04:30. > :04:32.not giving us anything to talk about cs especially on Brexit because they
:04:33. > :04:37.don't have a plan as we know. There is is a lot of truth that are being
:04:38. > :04:42.spoken from this row, one is that Mrs May comes into Downing Street
:04:43. > :04:45.with a lot of baggage including spectacular fall outs with Cabinet
:04:46. > :04:53.Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan being one. We heard about the row
:04:54. > :04:57.over banning children from school. She fell out with Boris Johnson, so,
:04:58. > :05:04.she then enters Number Ten with history. When you are in Number Ten
:05:05. > :05:12.you start, you cannot be controversial and my way but the
:05:13. > :05:16.high way, which is why Fiona Hill kept Theresa May in the Home Office.
:05:17. > :05:22.You need to behave differently in the top job. It is surprising Nicky
:05:23. > :05:28.Morgan hats taken such a robust line. She seemed such a gentle soul
:05:29. > :05:33.as a minister. She did, Brexit has done funny things to people.
:05:34. > :05:37.Everything has been shaken up. It reveals really how paranoid they
:05:38. > :05:43.are, I mean you cannot have a situation really in which the, in
:05:44. > :05:49.which you know, Number Ten has got realise if the Prime Minister's
:05:50. > :05:53.entire stick is her authenticity and incredible connection, which is
:05:54. > :05:58.genuine, with voters outside the Metropolitan bubble, when she
:05:59. > :06:02.chooses to wear ?995 leather trousers you have to anticipate that
:06:03. > :06:06.journalists and MPs are going to take the mickey, that is how life
:06:07. > :06:11.works, but I think they are trying to run Number Ten as they ran the
:06:12. > :06:14.Home Office, and you see that in the rows they have had with Mark Carney
:06:15. > :06:20.and Boris Johnson this week, now you might be able to run one Government
:06:21. > :06:23.department in that control freakish way but not Government will hold
:06:24. > :06:27.together for too long, if it is run in that fashion. By try doing the
:06:28. > :06:32.whole Government like one department. This is just the start,
:06:33. > :06:39.Polly, we are still several months away from triggering Article 50. We,
:06:40. > :06:43.The Tory party is split down the middle, the thing that mattered most
:06:44. > :06:48.to the nation since the last war, it is not frivolous. It may look as if
:06:49. > :06:53.it is about trousers, it is about the most serious thing. What was
:06:54. > :06:58.split down the middle? Aren't the Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used
:06:59. > :07:04.to be the outliers, it is now the Europhiles, it is not a split down
:07:05. > :07:07.the middle. They won't vote against Brexit but they will, I think exert
:07:08. > :07:12.the maximum influence they can, to make sure that it is not a Brexit, a
:07:13. > :07:15.self-harming Brexit, to make sure that the country understand, when it
:07:16. > :07:21.comes to that point, that there may be really hard decision to make, do
:07:22. > :07:27.you want a real economic damage to be done to the country, to your own
:07:28. > :07:30.wallet, in, in exchange for being able to stop free movement or is
:07:31. > :07:34.that trade off in the end going to be just too expensive? We have seen
:07:35. > :07:40.polls suggesting people are beginning to move, and not willing,
:07:41. > :07:44.a poll out now saying people wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any
:07:45. > :07:47.money at all, for the sake of stopping immigration. So if itself
:07:48. > :07:55.comes to that trade off, the people are going to need to be confronted
:07:56. > :07:59.with that choice. The Irony is, I think the Tories are in the most
:08:00. > :08:04.exceptionally strong position, I mean what is happening here is that
:08:05. > :08:09.British politics is being realigned and remade along leave and remain
:08:10. > :08:16.lines, if the Prime Minister's luck hold, the Tories are looking at
:08:17. > :08:20.being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the vote with an opposition split
:08:21. > :08:23.between a far left Labour Party and depleted Liberal Democrats, that
:08:24. > :08:29.sound like a recipe for something similar to what happened in the
:08:30. > :08:33.1980s. You are seeing extraordinary alliances between left and right.
:08:34. > :08:38.The Scottish referendum rebuilt Scottish politics along the lines of
:08:39. > :08:43.pro independence, anti-independence and now Brexit maybe doing the same.
:08:44. > :08:45.So, rows within the Conservative Party over the price
:08:46. > :08:48.of trousers might be new, but over Europe, not so much.
:08:49. > :08:51.And this week's Commons vote on when the Government will fire
:08:52. > :08:53.the starting gun on Brexit, and what it will say
:08:54. > :08:55.about its plans before it does so, confirmed that instead
:08:56. > :08:57.of the eurosceptics being the outsiders,
:08:58. > :08:59.it's now the Remainers who are leading the resistance.
:09:00. > :09:08.While the Prime Minister was schmoozing in the gold-plated
:09:09. > :09:11.Gulf this week, back home the Commons was voting
:09:12. > :09:14.on a Labour motion forcing her to publish a plan for Brexit.
:09:15. > :09:15.Through some parliamentary jiggery-pokery, the Government
:09:16. > :09:18.basically got its way, but it did provide a platform
:09:19. > :09:23.for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs who voted to remain,
:09:24. > :09:32.We are getting somewhat tired, are we not, of this constant level
:09:33. > :09:35.of abuse, this constant criticism that we are somehow Remoaners
:09:36. > :09:38.that want to thwart the will of the people,
:09:39. > :09:43.go back on it and that we don't accept the result.
:09:44. > :09:48.I don't like the result, and yes, I do believe the people
:09:49. > :09:51.It's not good enough that these things are dragged
:09:52. > :09:53.out of the Government by opposition day motions.
:09:54. > :09:56.I'm pleased that it's happened but I wish the Government was taking
:09:57. > :10:01.Is Nicky Morgan really listening to her constituents
:10:02. > :10:09.I think I'm one of the people who stuck their head
:10:10. > :10:12.above the parapet so if you do that you're likely to attract attention,
:10:13. > :10:14.you're likely to attract abuse, but also actually levels of support.
:10:15. > :10:17.I'm having e-mails from around the country with people saying thank
:10:18. > :10:19.you for what you are doing, party members around
:10:20. > :10:22.the country saying thank you for what you are doing
:10:23. > :10:25.and saying, and I and others will continue to do that.
:10:26. > :10:28.I just think, as a backbench Member of Parliament,
:10:29. > :10:30.you've got to be there, particularly when we have a weak
:10:31. > :10:33.opposition, to ask the question that government needs to be scrutinised
:10:34. > :10:40.on before we embark on such a huge issue.
:10:41. > :10:43.Nobody comes into politics to become a thorn in their party leader's
:10:44. > :10:47.side, but at the end of the day it's such a massive issue that
:10:48. > :10:49.if you don't stand up for what you believe in,
:10:50. > :10:55.I'm not sure what the point is of going into politics.
:10:56. > :10:58.That puts her on a collision course with activists in her local
:10:59. > :11:00.party like Adam Stairs, a committed leader who accuses
:11:01. > :11:05.Nicky has promised me and the rest of our Conservative association
:11:06. > :11:08.she will be voting for Article 50 and she will support
:11:09. > :11:11.the Prime Minister's timetable, and we have just got to trust that
:11:12. > :11:13.and hope that goes ahead, but there's a lot of people
:11:14. > :11:15.who think she's taking sideswipes at the Government
:11:16. > :11:19.The Conservatives are very popular, she wants to be a Conservative MP
:11:20. > :11:21.and we want to see a Conservative government being
:11:22. > :11:29.I have no idea what she's playing at, I think she just needs to get
:11:30. > :11:32.on with her job as an MP, which she does very well,
:11:33. > :11:35.Now let's head to Anna Soubry's constituency nearby to see
:11:36. > :11:38.how her stance is going down with the voters.
:11:39. > :11:40.If Anna Soubry doesn't fully back Brexit, what does
:11:41. > :11:45.Well, she's going to have a little bit of a problem because the voters,
:11:46. > :11:48.especially in this area, they voted to come out of the EU
:11:49. > :11:51.so she will definitely have a little bit of a problem.
:11:52. > :11:53.She should stick for what she believes in,
:11:54. > :11:55.but I guess from a democratic perspective she does...
:11:56. > :12:12.She has admitted the fact over and over again that she wanted
:12:13. > :12:14.to remain, but her views at the moment, even in her e-mails,
:12:15. > :12:16.depicted the fact she's anti-Brexit still.
:12:17. > :12:21.Theresa May will host her most pro-European MPs at Downing Street
:12:22. > :12:23.this week to discuss the countdown to Brexit.
:12:24. > :12:32.Although now we know not everyone is invited.
:12:33. > :12:38.And the MP leading the resistance in the Commons on Wednesday
:12:39. > :12:40.was Ken Clarke, he was the only Conservative MP who voted
:12:41. > :12:43.against the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end
:12:44. > :12:46.of March and he joins us now from Nottingham.
:12:47. > :12:51.Welcome back to the programme Ken Clarke. Now, tell me this when David
:12:52. > :12:57.Cameron resigned after losing the referendum, you had to pick a new
:12:58. > :13:01.leader, which candidate did the Tory Europhiles like you put up to
:13:02. > :13:07.deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or no Brexit at all? Well, I can't
:13:08. > :13:13.speak for the others but I voted for Theresa May, I gave a notorious
:13:14. > :13:18.interview, it wasn't meant to be, I was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but
:13:19. > :13:21.somebody turned a camera on, I called her a bloody difficult woman
:13:22. > :13:25.which the Tory party probably needs, compared with Margaret Thatcher and
:13:26. > :13:30.said I was going to vote for her, I gave a vote for one of the younger
:13:31. > :13:36.ones first, but I told Teresa I would vote for her, she was the only
:13:37. > :13:39.serious candidate in my view. You voted for somebody you thought was a
:13:40. > :13:42.difficult woman, she is being difficult in ways you don't like,
:13:43. > :13:48.your side of the Tory party, you had your chance to put up somebody more
:13:49. > :13:53.in line with you, instead you shut up, so, why the complaints about it
:13:54. > :13:57.not going in your direction? I am not making complaint, it is not
:13:58. > :14:01.Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful mess, she was on the Remain side,
:14:02. > :14:04.she made a good speech during the campaign on the referendum, setting
:14:05. > :14:07.out the economic case for being in, setting out the security case for
:14:08. > :14:12.being in, which was Home Secretary, she was particularly expert in, it
:14:13. > :14:17.wasn't her fault that not a word it was reported anywhere, in the
:14:18. > :14:21.national media. Now, my views have been the same, I am afraid
:14:22. > :14:25.throughout my adult life, for the 50 years I have been in politics, and
:14:26. > :14:29.my views have been the mainstream policy of the Conservative Party
:14:30. > :14:34.throughout all that time, I don't expect to have a sudden conversion
:14:35. > :14:38.on the 24th June, and I think what I owe to my constituency, and to
:14:39. > :14:43.Parliament, is that I exercise my judgment, I make speeches giving my
:14:44. > :14:47.reasons, I make the best judgment that I can, of what is the national
:14:48. > :14:54.interest. I understand that. I would be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of
:14:55. > :14:59.course that is not what I am asking. How many Conservative MPs do you
:15:00. > :15:06.think you can count on to oppose this so-called hard Brexit? Is it
:15:07. > :15:10.40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea, because Anna, and Nicky, who you
:15:11. > :15:13.have just seen on the video who are also sticking to their principle,
:15:14. > :15:17.they are only saying what they are been saying ever since they have
:15:18. > :15:28.been in politics, probably may have more idea than me.
:15:29. > :15:36.That is three, how many more? I don't know, we will find out. We are
:15:37. > :15:42.living in a bubble in which the tone of politics is getting nastier and
:15:43. > :15:46.the reporting is getting sillier, so it is all about Theresa May's
:15:47. > :15:50.trousers and whether Boris has made some inappropriate jokes. What we
:15:51. > :15:54.need if we are going to abandon the basis upon which we made ourselves a
:15:55. > :15:59.leading political power in the world for the last 40 years and the basis
:16:00. > :16:02.upon which our economy has prospered because Margaret Thatcher got the
:16:03. > :16:06.others to adopt the single market and we benefited from that more than
:16:07. > :16:13.any other member state, so now we need a serious plan, a strategy.
:16:14. > :16:17.What is our relationship going to be in the modern world? How will our
:16:18. > :16:27.children and grandchildren make the best union they can? We need
:16:28. > :16:33.Parliament's approval of a White Paper and then start years of
:16:34. > :16:37.negotiation. This will run and run. This interview hasn't got time to
:16:38. > :16:40.run and run so let me get another question in. You seem to be quoted
:16:41. > :16:46.in the mail on Sunday this morning as saying if the Prime Minister
:16:47. > :16:51.sides too much with the heart Brexit group, she won't survive, is that
:16:52. > :16:55.your view? Yes because only a minority of the House of Commons
:16:56. > :16:58.think it is frightfully simple and you can just leave. The referendum
:16:59. > :17:03.campaign, the only national media reporting of the issues were
:17:04. > :17:10.completely silly and often quite dishonest arguments on both sides.
:17:11. > :17:15.Let me just check this, explain to me the basis... Know, excuse me, I
:17:16. > :17:18.have to interrupt because you said the Prime Minister won't survive so
:17:19. > :17:24.just explain to our viewers why she won't survive. She will be in a
:17:25. > :17:28.minority she starts adopting the views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan
:17:29. > :17:32.Smith. It's clear majority of the House of Commons doesn't agree with
:17:33. > :17:36.that and it would be pretty catastrophic if that is what we were
:17:37. > :17:42.going to do when we turn up and faced 27 of the nation state, and
:17:43. > :17:50.tell them we are pulling out of the biggest market in the world. How
:17:51. > :17:57.long do you give the Prime Minister then? If you don't think she will
:17:58. > :18:04.survive by going for a heart Brexit? I don't think she will go for a
:18:05. > :18:09.heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you
:18:10. > :18:17.think Liam Fox will determine the policy of the Cabinet? Liam has
:18:18. > :18:20.always been ferociously against the European Union although he served in
:18:21. > :18:27.a government that was pro-European for about two and a half years. Does
:18:28. > :18:31.he not survive either? You're trying to reduce it to my trying to
:18:32. > :18:35.forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which I haven't got a clue whether there
:18:36. > :18:44.will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they may be ministers for the next ten
:18:45. > :18:47.years, I have no idea. Liam and me, but also Liam and the majority of
:18:48. > :18:51.his Cabinet colleagues don't start from the same place. The way forward
:18:52. > :18:56.is for them to produce a White Paper setting out the strategy on which
:18:57. > :19:00.all the Cabinet are agreed. People should stop leaking the Cabinet
:19:01. > :19:08.papers they are getting, they should stop leaking against each other, get
:19:09. > :19:11.down and do the work when they have got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry
:19:12. > :19:19.to interrupt again but we haven't got much time. We saw in our film
:19:20. > :19:26.that a number of constituency members in those areas which are
:19:27. > :19:32.strongly Remain MPs like yourself, in our case in this film it was
:19:33. > :19:36.Nicky Morgan, the constituency party members are unhappy about this.
:19:37. > :19:41.What's your message to them? Don't they deserve an MP that reflects
:19:42. > :19:48.their way of thinking? Leavers are unhappy and Remainers are very
:19:49. > :19:56.grateful. Mine don't go in for abuse... That's probably because
:19:57. > :20:01.you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I get more from Remainers. I'm a great
:20:02. > :20:05.fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, I don't agree with them on
:20:06. > :20:08.everything, but the views they are putting forward are the ones they've
:20:09. > :20:13.always held and I think we are doing the Government to favour by saying
:20:14. > :20:20.what it now depends on is your success in agreeing a policy and
:20:21. > :20:24.then explaining to the public what you want to do. I shall be surprised
:20:25. > :20:29.if they manage that by the end of March, I think it is best to get the
:20:30. > :20:36.policy right first but we shall see. Have you been invited then, you say
:20:37. > :20:42.you are being helpful, have you been invited to this meeting in Downing
:20:43. > :20:46.Street on Wednesday for the soft Brexiteers? No, because I haven't
:20:47. > :20:49.been joining any of these groups. It's fair to say most of my
:20:50. > :20:56.colleagues know exactly what my views are. No doubt those that
:20:57. > :21:03.haven't had this kind of discussion with their colleagues before have
:21:04. > :21:07.been invited. I didn't expect to be invited. I get on perfectly well
:21:08. > :21:11.with Theresa May but I haven't been invited, but I don't think there's
:21:12. > :21:17.much significance in that. What do you think of the way Downing Street
:21:18. > :21:22.has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel sorry for women in politics. I'm
:21:23. > :21:26.glad to say men in politics don't have great lead stories about what
:21:27. > :21:30.they are wearing. Apart from my suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm
:21:31. > :21:36.not a very snappy dresser. It is tedious in these days that we still
:21:37. > :21:48.have a absurd pop newspaper stories about what they are wearing.
:21:49. > :21:54.That commenting on the Prime Minister's trousers, is it really
:21:55. > :22:01.grounds for banishment? No, of course not. Nikki and Teresa will
:22:02. > :22:04.have serious political discussions and if they want to have an argument
:22:05. > :22:12.about what they are wearing, their closest friends will advise them to
:22:13. > :22:20.keep it private. It is absurd. Given that the party appears to be
:22:21. > :22:25.deciding it has been all -- ordered to changes policies about Britain's
:22:26. > :22:30.relationship with the world, it needs to be taken seriously and this
:22:31. > :22:34.Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the serious discussion starts. Thank you
:22:35. > :22:36.for filling our vacuum this morning and of course no one would ever
:22:37. > :22:40.criticise how you dress. Of course. Now, seasoned observers will warn
:22:41. > :22:42.against reading too much into parliamentary by-elections,
:22:43. > :22:45.but they can provide a vital boost for a party leader under pressure,
:22:46. > :22:47.or provide damaging ammunition Following a disappointing result
:22:48. > :22:50.for Labour last week in Richmond, Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping
:22:51. > :22:53.for an early Christmas present at this week's
:22:54. > :22:55.contest in Lincolnshire. In Sleaford and North Hykeham,
:22:56. > :23:03.a constituency that supported Leave in the EU referendum,
:23:04. > :23:05.there was little Christmas cheer for Labour as it fell from second
:23:06. > :23:10.in 2015 to fourth place. That was at least a better
:23:11. > :23:12.performance than in Remain-supporting Richmond Park,
:23:13. > :23:16.where the party's candiate lost his deposit after attracting
:23:17. > :23:18.fewer voters than the reported number of local
:23:19. > :23:22.Labour Party members. Speaking for the Labour Party this
:23:23. > :23:28.week, MP Vernon Coaker said their policies on other major
:23:29. > :23:32.issues were "lost to an extent Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity
:23:33. > :23:44.is holding the party back. This week three frontbenchers
:23:45. > :23:48.were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy the party line and vote
:23:49. > :23:56.against a motion to begin the process of leaving the EU
:23:57. > :23:59.by the end of March. And a number of Labour MPs we've
:24:00. > :24:02.spoken to since Thursday's vote have said they fear the party now runs
:24:03. > :24:05.the risk of being squeezed by the Lib Dems and UKIP,
:24:06. > :24:08.or in the words of one, "being cannabilised,
:24:09. > :24:12.eaten from both ends". To compound their troubles,
:24:13. > :24:13.a national poll released on Friday put Labour
:24:14. > :24:16.at a seven-year low, trailing 17 It's still a season of joy
:24:17. > :24:23.for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters - they point to a series of victories
:24:24. > :24:25.under his leadership, including a by-election win
:24:26. > :24:28.in Tooting and the London mayoral Though neither candidate was a
:24:29. > :24:34.Corbynite. But there's a distinct lack
:24:35. > :24:38.of goodwill on the party of his critics - although having
:24:39. > :24:40.failed comprehensively to challenge him this summer,
:24:41. > :24:51.what they intend to do This morning Diane Abbott played
:24:52. > :24:56.down the significance of the results. The reports of the Labour
:24:57. > :25:00.Party's demise are exaggerated, we are the largest social Democratic
:25:01. > :25:03.party in Europe and the surging membership is down to the current
:25:04. > :25:08.leadership. We have the right policies on the NHS, investing in
:25:09. > :25:12.the economy, and as you know the Tories are fatally split on Europe.
:25:13. > :25:14.And we're joined now by the former mayor
:25:15. > :25:16.of London Ken Livingstone, and the former Shadow
:25:17. > :25:24.Ken Livingstone, in the most recent by-election Labour collapsed from
:25:25. > :25:29.second to fourth place, the one before that your party lost its
:25:30. > :25:35.deposit. What is the positive gloss on that? There's nothing new in
:25:36. > :25:44.this, where you have got seats which are solidly Tory, often voters
:25:45. > :25:50.switched to Lib Dem to kick other voters out. We have had good swings
:25:51. > :25:56.that indicate a Labour government so don't pay too much attention. It is
:25:57. > :26:00.like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour voters switched just to kick the
:26:01. > :26:09.Tories out. Don't read too much into these results, Labour did win
:26:10. > :26:13.tooting so it is OK. First of all I don't think it was a problem with
:26:14. > :26:18.the candidates in the by-elections, they did a really good job locally,
:26:19. > :26:23.but there is an issue with those residents and their attitudes to the
:26:24. > :26:27.national party, and I just think that when you have warning bells
:26:28. > :26:31.going off like that, we have to listen to what people are saying. I
:26:32. > :26:36.think what they are saying is they want an opposition party to have a
:26:37. > :26:40.plan. So yes we have got to attack the Conservatives where they are
:26:41. > :26:45.going wrong on the NHS, running headlong over the cliff for a hard
:26:46. > :26:52.Brexit, but we also need a plan for what Labour's alternative will be.
:26:53. > :26:57.When do we get that plant? Effectively you have got it already.
:26:58. > :27:04.John McDonnell has gone on relentlessly for the need for a
:27:05. > :27:08.massive public investment. For decades now under Labour and Tory
:27:09. > :27:14.governments we haven't invested in infrastructure, our roads are a
:27:15. > :27:18.disgrace, a broadband is antique. We need to be honest about this, if
:27:19. > :27:22.Theresa May can come back and say I've done a deal, we are leaving the
:27:23. > :27:28.EU, we will control our borders, we won't have to pay 350 million a year
:27:29. > :27:33.and stay in the single market, well... But that won't happen. If we
:27:34. > :27:39.are going to stumble along for two years heading for an economic
:27:40. > :27:42.disaster, that's why only eight MPs voted to leave, because they knew
:27:43. > :27:46.the harm it would do to their voters. If you have got a plan, why
:27:47. > :27:52.are things getting worse for you in the national polls, 17 points
:27:53. > :27:57.behind? If you look back, when I was leader of Chelsea my poll rating
:27:58. > :28:02.went down... But you have not been as bad since 1983 when you lost an
:28:03. > :28:07.election by a landslide. Over the next two years our economy will not
:28:08. > :28:12.grow strongly, it will limp along at best, as we get closer to Brexit it
:28:13. > :28:16.will get worse. All Labour MPs should be focusing on the economic
:28:17. > :28:22.alternative because nobody ever wins an election without a credible
:28:23. > :28:27.economic strategy. So as long as the country goes to hell in a hand
:28:28. > :28:30.basket, Labour will be fine. That's not good enough. You're not a
:28:31. > :28:38.commentator any more, you are part of the leadership of the party. It
:28:39. > :28:41.is to you. I will continue to argue the case for credibility,
:28:42. > :28:47.particularly in our policies, but the leadership cannot just sit back
:28:48. > :28:51.and watch this drift. On the Brexit situation, the Conservative
:28:52. > :28:55.manifesto at the last general election promised it would be yes to
:28:56. > :28:59.the single market, why aren't we holding them to account for the
:29:00. > :29:05.broken promise potentially they are about to do? If I had still been an
:29:06. > :29:10.MP, I would have been voting with you, rebelling, because we are not
:29:11. > :29:14.going to get any good deal to leave. Theresa May will stumble on for a
:29:15. > :29:17.couple of years trying to balance... The party policies were heard from
:29:18. > :29:24.Diane Abbott this morning is to get the best possible deal to leave. And
:29:25. > :29:29.I will believe it when it happens. So you don't believe a central part
:29:30. > :29:36.of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy has accepted the fact people voted
:29:37. > :29:40.to leave. He now said we now need to get the best possible deal and you
:29:41. > :29:45.don't think it's achievable. I don't, because why would the other
:29:46. > :29:52.27 members give us a better deal staying outside? You've confused me,
:29:53. > :29:54.why are you such a big supporter of Corbyn with his policy you don't
:29:55. > :30:06.think it's achievable? Everybody knows we are not going to
:30:07. > :30:10.get a soft exit, so we either have the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps
:30:11. > :30:15.millions, certainly hundreds of thousands of jobs, or we have to say
:30:16. > :30:20.we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot of people have been saying that all
:30:21. > :30:24.Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is why it is going wrong, I would
:30:25. > :30:28.suggest to you, that actually what the concentration on is the Tories
:30:29. > :30:34.are unclear about Brexit, they are in power, that is what matters, a
:30:35. > :30:38.bigger problem for Labour is whether Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut
:30:39. > :30:43.through or not. I think the YouGov poll this weekend not only gave us
:30:44. > :30:48.that double punch of a 17 point lead for the Conservatives but it had a
:30:49. > :30:53.33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of
:30:54. > :30:57.the plan, think, has to be to address this leadership issue, to
:30:58. > :31:04.make sure it is also a party that is listening to the wider public and
:31:05. > :31:11.not just the small number of members or the trotsites in Momentum or
:31:12. > :31:20.whoever is the latest Marxist on the... You The thing that is ox
:31:21. > :31:25.fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour has quoted bunkum. We have has 18
:31:26. > :31:31.months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy in the back and some in the front.
:31:32. > :31:34.The vast majority of Labour MPs have stopped undermining Jeremy. You
:31:35. > :31:37.weren't doing that well before. Can you imagine a situation in which you
:31:38. > :31:41.have elected a new leader and the first year it is all about getting
:31:42. > :31:46.rid of imand undermining him. I disagree with Tony Blair on lots of
:31:47. > :31:50.policy issue, I didn't run wound saying this man is not fit to
:31:51. > :31:56.govern. That is because you had no support for that at the time. The
:31:57. > :32:00.idea people will take lectures from Ken on divisiveness, that is like
:32:01. > :32:05.takes lectures from Boris Johnson on diplomacy, you have to make sure,
:32:06. > :32:10.yes, that we find some accommodation after the leadership election this
:32:11. > :32:17.summer, but the plan is not there right now, and you and the rest of
:32:18. > :32:21.the leadership has to be held accountable for delivering that, I
:32:22. > :32:28.want to hear what the plan is. It is FDR he told us earlier. If you have
:32:29. > :32:32.got now because as we saw in the Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio
:32:33. > :32:37.at 90%, you can't convince the public by saying we will throw more
:32:38. > :32:41.money at the problem, the public want a credible plan, where the sums
:32:42. > :32:46.add up, that you are not making promises that won't be delivered.
:32:47. > :32:52.They want that plan. We need to point out our history, when Labour
:32:53. > :33:00.Waugh the election in 45 Government debt was two times that it was now..
:33:01. > :33:04.Now.. They generated exports and within 50 years we virtually paid
:33:05. > :33:11.off that debt. Austerity is not the way to go. Our economy is a disgrace
:33:12. > :33:15.compared with Germany. I agree. What we have to start saying, there is
:33:16. > :33:20.decent jobs, where are they going to be coming from, can we have a
:33:21. > :33:23.society based on fair play and prosperity for everybody not just
:33:24. > :33:26.the wealthy, that means saying, some time, that people have to
:33:27. > :33:29.contribute, they have to put in, so we have to listen to what the public
:33:30. > :33:34.are saying on issues for instance like immigration, as they said in
:33:35. > :33:39.the Brexit referendum, but make sure we have our approach set out
:33:40. > :33:44.clearly, so people know there is a ability to manage, and control these
:33:45. > :33:53.things, not just ignore them. Those tax dodgers who launder their money
:33:54. > :33:59.through Panamanian banks. If we crackdown on what might be 150
:34:00. > :34:05.billion a year of tax evasion and avoidance. That is a real outlier
:34:06. > :34:09.estimate as you know, way the highest, you cannot build the FDR
:34:10. > :34:14.programme on tax evasion revenues, alone, but let me ask you. You can
:34:15. > :34:21.say to Starbucks, if you are not going to pay tax on your profits we
:34:22. > :34:25.will tax every cup of coffee. Why don't you nationalise it? I was just
:34:26. > :34:30.checking that would be the policy. Let me ask you this. By what time do
:34:31. > :34:34.you get, start to get worrieded if the polls haven't given to turn
:34:35. > :34:39.round? I mean, I think they will turn round. When do you start to get
:34:40. > :34:42.worried? If they haven't? If in a year's time it was as bad as this we
:34:43. > :34:48.would be worried. I don't think it will be. Jeremy and his team will
:34:49. > :34:53.knows can on the economy, and that is wins every election. Bill
:34:54. > :34:56.Clinton, remember it's the economy stupid. People know if you are going
:34:57. > :34:59.to spend money they want to see where it is coming from, otherwise
:35:00. > :35:05.they will think it is their taxes that will go up and the
:35:06. > :35:10.Conservative, Theresa May, will scare the British public over plans
:35:11. > :35:16.that are not properly... What do you do if things haven't got better in
:35:17. > :35:20.12 months? We lost the leadership election in the summer but we will
:35:21. > :35:26.hold our leadership to account. What does that mean? It means asking for
:35:27. > :35:32.the plan, testing what the proposals are, are they properly credible, do
:35:33. > :35:36.they make sure that they meet the test the public... You just have to
:35:37. > :35:42.bite the bottom lip now, you privately, a lot of you think your
:35:43. > :35:47.party is heading for catastrophe. I don't think it is acceptable that we
:35:48. > :35:51.have this level of performance, currently, I am sure Ken agrees the
:35:52. > :35:55.opinion polls, and those by by-election were just not good
:35:56. > :35:57.enough. We have to show leadership, certainly on Brexit, hold the
:35:58. > :36:03.Government to account. Attack them for the crisis in the NHS, yes and
:36:04. > :36:07.on the economy, to deliver credible policy force, example on defending
:36:08. > :36:10.national security and making sure we stand up for humanitarian
:36:11. > :36:16.intervention. Final point, your party has lost Scotland. You are now
:36:17. > :36:20.in third place behind the stories -- Tories. I never thought I would be
:36:21. > :36:24.able to say that in a broadcast, if you lose the north too, you are
:36:25. > :36:28.heading for the smallest Parliamentary Labour Party since the
:36:29. > :36:33.war, aren't you. But that is our weakness, we in the 13 years of the
:36:34. > :36:36.last Labour Government neglected rebuilding our manufacturing in the
:36:37. > :36:41.way the Germans have done. Millions of people used to have good job, we
:36:42. > :36:45.used to have 8 million jobs in manufacturing it is down two. It is
:36:46. > :36:48.in the north, that Jeremy's strategy has the most relevance, of actually
:36:49. > :36:53.getting the investment and rebuilding. All right. We will see.
:36:54. > :36:57.Come back in 12 months if not before and we will check it out.
:36:58. > :36:59.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:00. > :37:02.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:37:03. > :37:05.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking
:37:06. > :37:07.about Boris Johnson's tour of the Middle East after straying
:37:08. > :37:09.off message, again, and the protestors attempting
:37:10. > :37:21.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:37:22. > :37:23.I'm Natalie Graham and this is the Sunday Politics
:37:24. > :37:27.They've got cash from their pensions and they're
:37:28. > :37:30.being targeted by criminals - in some cases, fraud victims
:37:31. > :37:34.The Sussex Police and Crime Commissioner tells us what she wants
:37:35. > :37:36.the Government to do to tackle the problem.
:37:37. > :37:39.Joining me in the studio today are Peter Kyle,
:37:40. > :37:42.the Labour MP for Hove and Portslade and Nus Ghani, the Conservative
:37:43. > :37:48.Now, this is the first time Peter has been in the studio
:37:49. > :37:50.since the local difficulties in the Brighton and
:37:51. > :37:55.You may remember the group elected members of Momentum -
:37:56. > :37:58.supporters of Jeremy Corbyn - to run it, but they were suspended
:37:59. > :38:03.In the meantime there was talk of deselecting Peter,
:38:04. > :38:06.because he didn't represent the grass roots members enough.
:38:07. > :38:12.So how are things now, have they settled down?
:38:13. > :38:17.Things have always actually been fine. My connection and the team's
:38:18. > :38:22.connection with the electorate is fantastic. Through these media
:38:23. > :38:26.discussions through the summer, we never stopped campaigning and
:38:27. > :38:29.listening, we didn't stop being active in the communities that gave
:38:30. > :38:34.me this opportunity to represent them. you talk about the electorate,
:38:35. > :38:36.not the local membership, and that's where the difficulties are. There
:38:37. > :38:42.were difficulties but what I'm keen to tell people is it has never
:38:43. > :38:45.distracted me from my day job. I've been out pretty much every weekend
:38:46. > :38:50.since the summer and I've had a big team around me. Right now, there are
:38:51. > :38:53.teams out in Hove delivering Christmas cards, knocking on doors,
:38:54. > :39:00.listening to people. That continues all the time and I have a great
:39:01. > :39:04.dedicated local membership. We gone from a city party to a constituency
:39:05. > :39:10.party. It was broken up. I think it's a good thing because it's more
:39:11. > :39:13.manageable and personal. We're a focused team in Hove, we always have
:39:14. > :39:17.been and we will continue to be. In the meantime, Jeremy Corbyn was
:39:18. > :39:20.resoundingly be elected as party leader and you were one of 23 MPs
:39:21. > :39:24.who went against party leadership in the vote on Article 50 in the
:39:25. > :39:27.Commons this week so you still appear to be causing trouble for the
:39:28. > :39:34.leadership. Does that suggest it would agree -- you don't agree with
:39:35. > :39:37.the party stands on Brexit? It has nothing to do with Jeremy Corbyn, it
:39:38. > :39:41.is a strong feeling, I don't think we are ready for these negotiations.
:39:42. > :39:47.It is not about stopping or disrespecting the vote. Let's do it
:39:48. > :39:51.when we are ready. The European Union has 600 specialist trade
:39:52. > :39:54.negotiators, we have none, not one, so why do we start the most
:39:55. > :39:59.complicated set of negotiations are country has ever had to face when we
:40:00. > :40:03.are not equipped to do so? I will support Government going into these
:40:04. > :40:08.negotiations when we're ready to do so. You're one of the many
:40:09. > :40:11.Conservative MPs who voted to leave the European Union. What would you
:40:12. > :40:16.like to see the Government publish as its plan before Article 50 is
:40:17. > :40:21.triggered? The Government says they will publish details as and when
:40:22. > :40:26.they can, if they don't they may complicate getting the best deal.
:40:27. > :40:29.How much would you like them to publish? We have to recognise the
:40:30. > :40:33.vote this week showed that is absolutely no appetite in Parliament
:40:34. > :40:37.to delay triggering Article 50. There have now been two years of
:40:38. > :40:44.negotiations, they won't be enough time to negotiate. I represent a
:40:45. > :40:51.city which has 7 million visitors, to universities, ?10 million's what
:40:52. > :40:55.of EU funding. We need certainty about the economy, the destination
:40:56. > :40:59.for the economy outside of the EU. For all of those reasons, before we
:41:00. > :41:02.start these negotiations. Sorry to interrupt. We've got other issues to
:41:03. > :41:04.discuss. It's been another miserable week
:41:05. > :41:07.for Southern commuters and things There will be no services
:41:08. > :41:11.at all on the Brighton mainline for three days next week
:41:12. > :41:13.after Govia Thameslink lost its case at the High Court to stop a series
:41:14. > :41:17.of strikes by the drivers' union Here's a round-up of the political
:41:18. > :41:24.debate over the past few days. This situation is intolerable
:41:25. > :41:26.and the Government can't simply just wash its hands of involvement,
:41:27. > :41:28.so will the minister roll up his sleeves and get stuck
:41:29. > :41:31.in to resolve the crisis? The best thing she can do on behalf
:41:32. > :41:34.of her constituents is to go and speak to her close friends
:41:35. > :41:38.in the RMT and tell them to call off their disproportionate
:41:39. > :41:47.and unreasonable industrial action. The people trying to get to work
:41:48. > :41:50.on the Uckfield line have been This is about the unions,
:41:51. > :41:54.but not just them. The nationalised Network Rail has
:41:55. > :41:56.failed us again and again. While someone is on strike,
:41:57. > :42:03.while someone is messing up the passengers, why should I sit
:42:04. > :42:06.down with them and talk If they want to call off
:42:07. > :42:10.the strikes, we will sit down and work together in the interests
:42:11. > :42:13.of the future of the railway. They haven't spoken to us for months
:42:14. > :42:22.as far as I'm aware, but we won't be stopping the strike
:42:23. > :42:25.because we've got a mandate from our We have been listening to people
:42:26. > :42:30.and trying to find a compromise. One thing we won't do is compromise
:42:31. > :42:34.on our desire to improve the way we operate our service
:42:35. > :42:41.for our customers. What is becoming increasingly clear
:42:42. > :42:46.is that the Government is playing politics and is on the side of
:42:47. > :42:50.Southern, which it has made clear, and not on the side of the union, so
:42:51. > :42:56.there is no way Southern is going to back out if it has the Government on
:42:57. > :42:58.side. The passengers have had an awful service and it has damaged
:42:59. > :43:09.people's lights, they're amazing work, unable to secure further
:43:10. > :43:15.contracts -- lives. The unions have been taken to court to stop further
:43:16. > :43:19.strike action and the unappealing that -- they are appealing that. If
:43:20. > :43:25.they don't win, the Government has to step in to stop a handful of
:43:26. > :43:27.people holding a whole public service to a standstill. if you
:43:28. > :43:32.listen to what Chris Grayling has been saying recently, it's clear he
:43:33. > :43:36.doesn't want to hand a victory to the unions by taking any action
:43:37. > :43:39.against the train operating companies. We know because of leaked
:43:40. > :43:44.letters this week in the press that he is politically motivated when it
:43:45. > :43:50.comes to the rail service. Surely this crisis has gone beyond and he
:43:51. > :43:58.is acting only in political narrow interests. The only political action
:43:59. > :44:09.is the unions. They are saying they want a low drive only trains to take
:44:10. > :44:14.Thameslink are. I don't understand Thameslink are. I don't understand
:44:15. > :44:18.why unions are calling this strike and stopping passengers getting to
:44:19. > :44:21.work. They've got to call these strikes off. if you keep blaming
:44:22. > :44:27.unions, you're not going to get anywhere. Peter, you have called for
:44:28. > :44:30.the Government to intervene. What you haven't done is spell at what
:44:31. > :44:35.you would do if you were Transport Secretary. If I had a magic wand, I
:44:36. > :44:38.would have stripped Thameslink of this franchisee long time ago.
:44:39. > :44:44.Nobody is getting up in the morning and thinking, how do I make
:44:45. > :44:46.passengers lives better today? No one, the unions, the employers, the
:44:47. > :44:50.franchise and particularly Government. We have to recognise
:44:51. > :44:56.that all of the revenue that goes from the Government, they set the
:44:57. > :44:59.timetables, the fares, they are very active, it is not a normal
:45:00. > :45:04.franchise. What the Government does is sit on the sidelines, in the
:45:05. > :45:06.shadows. It needs to roll its sleeves up and get involved. It
:45:07. > :45:12.shouldn't be sitting to one side hurling insults. It should be doing
:45:13. > :45:18.whatever it takes to get them round the table to force them into a
:45:19. > :45:27.decision, which is going to end this nightmare now. we need to take the
:45:28. > :45:30.management team, Network Rail and the union around the table and get
:45:31. > :45:36.them to agree. When the Government constantly criticises the unions and
:45:37. > :45:44.refuses to talk to them and makes it clear they are backing Govia
:45:45. > :45:47.Thameslink. Is it time to resign? This requires all parties to
:45:48. > :45:51.negotiate and make sure the trains are running. I completely understand
:45:52. > :45:59.that when the strikes are happening, services and great. It's called the
:46:00. > :46:02.misery line. Network Rail have been criticised by me for not doing
:46:03. > :46:06.enough to insure the service is run to reflect the timetables that are
:46:07. > :46:11.printed, but at this moment in time, the straights are just causing so
:46:12. > :46:16.much chaos. The only people that can call the strikes off other unions.
:46:17. > :46:25.Government and not exercising any of the power they have. They should be
:46:26. > :46:28.instructing Govia Thameslink because they are actively involved. They
:46:29. > :46:31.should do whatever it takes to get this sorted. Yes, they might have to
:46:32. > :46:34.be tough with the unions but they need to do a deal, they've got to
:46:35. > :46:42.bring this to an end. They seem completely passive while misery is
:46:43. > :46:46.being meted out day in, day out. When you talk to people in your
:46:47. > :46:51.constituency, they are sympathetic to the unions. Do you have any
:46:52. > :46:55.sympathy for the unions? Passengers have just had enough, they do not
:46:56. > :47:06.have sympathy with anybody. They're angry but the understand. -- they
:47:07. > :47:10.understand. I hear from hundreds of people every day, that is no
:47:11. > :47:13.exaggeration, and I'm on the service myself so I speak to passengers.
:47:14. > :47:18.Believe me, when they see me, they're not shy about forward!
:47:19. > :47:23.People have had enough with everyone involved in this service. Any one of
:47:24. > :47:27.the parties could step up to the plate and lead a way through this.
:47:28. > :47:31.What they decided to do, although the parties, is to go to war with
:47:32. > :47:35.each other. We are not all-out war on this service. Every single actor
:47:36. > :47:45.involved in this service is at war with each other. They're not
:47:46. > :47:48.thinking about solving problems. it doesn't feel like the Government is
:47:49. > :47:54.acting in the interests of passengers. We are campaigning
:47:55. > :47:59.incredibly hard and I think at the moment in time, when the strikes are
:48:00. > :48:02.impacting passengers and commuters and constituents, the only people
:48:03. > :48:06.that can call that for the union. They've had 18 months and every
:48:07. > :48:09.month it is worse and worse. At what point either going to stop making
:48:10. > :48:13.promises and pledges and actually do something? -- are they going to
:48:14. > :48:15.stop? A staggering one in five of us
:48:16. > :48:17.falls victim to fraud. And since 2014 when the then
:48:18. > :48:20.Chancellor George Osborne introduced more pension freedoms,
:48:21. > :48:22.there's been a rise in the number of people persuaded by criminals
:48:23. > :48:25.to part with their money. This week the Government began
:48:26. > :48:27.consulting on new measures to crack But in Sussex they've tried out
:48:28. > :48:33.a new scheme to help prevent old people from becoming victims
:48:34. > :48:34.of sophisticated scams. In a moment we'll hear
:48:35. > :48:37.from the county's Police and Crime Commissioner,
:48:38. > :48:38.but first our reporter Briohny Williams has been speaking
:48:39. > :48:41.to one man who fell foul This is the latest video from Sussex
:48:42. > :48:48.Police warning vulnerable older people about the dangers
:48:49. > :48:53.of scams and fraud. It's estimated over half of people
:48:54. > :49:03.aged 65 and above have been targeted by fraudsters,
:49:04. > :49:05.by e-mail, telephone or post, and for those who fall
:49:06. > :49:08.into the trap, the financial loss I had most of my money invested
:49:09. > :49:15.in several online bank accounts, You never know what the future holds
:49:16. > :49:24.these days if something happens to you and you end up unable
:49:25. > :49:27.to look after yourself. 84-year-old Chris lives alone
:49:28. > :49:38.on the West Sussex coast. Over a period of seven years,
:49:39. > :49:40.he's lost nearly ?500,000 after falling victim
:49:41. > :49:41.to telephone scams. Mass-marketing scams from fake
:49:42. > :49:43.companies trying to get I've been taken in by four firms
:49:44. > :49:52.selling wine and three selling investment diamonds
:49:53. > :49:54.and the land investment scam. To ?3000 gems were only worth ?100
:49:55. > :50:03.each and I lost ?42,000. Promise of profits of 30% or so,
:50:04. > :50:06.she would take this ?8,000 diamond but I had to add another ?6,000
:50:07. > :50:11.to it, another ?50,000 so I had been Across the South East
:50:12. > :50:20.there are a number of different In Sussex, people are trying
:50:21. > :50:26.to educate people like Chris to recognise fraud and the Police
:50:27. > :50:30.and Crime Commission wants mass-marketing callers to prove
:50:31. > :50:32.they are legitimate. Also in Kent, the county council
:50:33. > :50:35.is training 200 community Dawn is one of them and says scam
:50:36. > :50:46.offers can seem very lucrative. It is wanting to win something,
:50:47. > :50:50.it is the wording on the letters This is the amount of scam mail that
:50:51. > :50:57.someone like Chris can receive Overwhelmingly, it is older people
:50:58. > :51:05.who are targeted by fraudsters, People will come to risk
:51:06. > :51:15.of social isolation, ill health or bereavement,
:51:16. > :51:17.so what is the solution The Government has a role to knock
:51:18. > :51:22.heads together to get the banks working together with police,
:51:23. > :51:25.local authorities, just to keep People who have been victims
:51:26. > :51:36.of scams in their own home are 2.5 times more likely to go into care,
:51:37. > :51:38.commit suicide or die within the year,
:51:39. > :51:42.so there is a really strong impact. Age UK says only 5%
:51:43. > :51:46.of fraud are supported. Over the past two years, 2,000
:51:47. > :51:49.victims and Kent lost over ?600,000. In Sussex, over a 12 month period,
:51:50. > :51:52.over 500 victims lost a combined The majority comes from abroad
:51:53. > :52:05.so it is very difficult and resource intensive
:52:06. > :52:07.to take action against You can report eight 42 action
:52:08. > :52:11.fraud but for advice go to Citizens Advice Bureau
:52:12. > :52:12.and local police. As long as somebody
:52:13. > :52:19.reported to somebody, that is a positive message,
:52:20. > :52:23.but I think there's work to be done to bring it back together to ensure
:52:24. > :52:26.we have a one-stop In the Autumn Statement,
:52:27. > :52:29.Philip Hammond said the Government would consult on how to tackle
:52:30. > :52:31.pension scams, just one of the many types of fraud
:52:32. > :52:33.affecting older people. I had been taken in because I did
:52:34. > :52:42.not realise fraud on such I'm quite sure I will not be
:52:43. > :52:50.defrauded again in this manner. If I do get caught talking
:52:51. > :52:53.to someone who wants me to invest in something on the telephone,
:52:54. > :52:56.I shall not go along with it. Joining us from Brighton
:52:57. > :53:08.is the Sussex Police A huge amount of money
:53:09. > :53:12.is being taken, stolen As a Conservative,
:53:13. > :53:16.are you getting enough support from the Conservative Government
:53:17. > :53:21.on this issue? I think the Government are taking
:53:22. > :53:26.this very seriously. For me, it is about getting
:53:27. > :53:29.all the agencies to work much more Are they sharing the
:53:30. > :53:32.information on this? Fraud is not being reported,
:53:33. > :53:37.it is underreported, and for me, the worry in Sussex
:53:38. > :53:41.is we have an increasingly older population and they are being
:53:42. > :53:45.deliberately targeted by criminals and groomed online and down
:53:46. > :53:48.the phone to part with their money and this has a huge destructive
:53:49. > :53:53.impact. As we heard from Age UK,
:53:54. > :53:56.they feel the Government should be I'm representing to the Government
:53:57. > :54:03.at the moment because they're looking at how they fund police
:54:04. > :54:05.forces nationally and they are looking at the formula and I'm
:54:06. > :54:08.saying, when you are looking at the different things you take
:54:09. > :54:12.into account on the formula funding, please take into account the fact
:54:13. > :54:16.that our elderly are being As we're all getting older, this
:54:17. > :54:27.is becoming an increasing problem. The Sussex Police have
:54:28. > :54:30.Operation Signature where an officer will actually go out and meet
:54:31. > :54:33.an elderly victim of a vulnerable This is quite intense
:54:34. > :54:38.in terms of resources so it I noticed a lot of the work does
:54:39. > :54:42.centre on the victim, encouraging Why aren't you targeting
:54:43. > :54:47.the criminals who are grooming them? We need to, absolutely,
:54:48. > :54:54.and the questions we need to ask, are the deterrents and
:54:55. > :54:56.sentences tough enough? There are lots of different agencies
:54:57. > :55:00.that deal with fraud, everyone from the information
:55:01. > :55:03.commission office through to trading standards, even Ofcom have
:55:04. > :55:09.regulations around this. One of your, on your VT said
:55:10. > :55:12.we should pull this information It makes a lot of sense and then
:55:13. > :55:17.we would understand the impact and severity of this and the volume
:55:18. > :55:20.of this crime. If Age UK is right and only 5%
:55:21. > :55:23.of these victims are coming forward, then this is just the tip
:55:24. > :55:28.of the iceberg, surely. For me, elder exploitation,
:55:29. > :55:30.because this is what it comes under, is a real worry and I do feel
:55:31. > :55:36.that it is the tip the iceberg and we can clearly show
:55:37. > :55:39.that our elderly, our 75-year-olds and above in Sussex,
:55:40. > :55:41.are being deliberately targeted Is it any wonder that household
:55:42. > :55:47.burglaries nationally, numbers are going down
:55:48. > :55:50.when it is much easier for criminals to reach out down the telephone
:55:51. > :56:10.and take money from us Katy Bourne is clearly doing as much
:56:11. > :56:13.as she can. You can say this is not a priority. I think every MP would
:56:14. > :56:20.listen to that and be heartbroken and appalled about it. We need to
:56:21. > :56:23.look at this internationally, a lot of calls are being made over the
:56:24. > :56:28.Internet so it is difficult to track. We need to start working with
:56:29. > :56:34.foreign governments to make sure we get the root cause and would be
:56:35. > :56:43.catch the person responsible they get the sternest sentence possible.
:56:44. > :56:48.I agree. I work with Katy Bourne on the elders commission to look at how
:56:49. > :56:50.the scams and affecting people including people in my constituency
:56:51. > :56:54.who are too afraid to pick up the phone because they have been
:56:55. > :57:07.scammed. You must let people and your neighbours now. -- know. Would
:57:08. > :57:13.you lobby for more police funding? Yes. I'm trying to push the Home
:57:14. > :57:18.Office on Elder abuse and making sure we get the right amount of
:57:19. > :57:26.resources and debate. Whether it is social services, policing, we want
:57:27. > :57:30.to help with convictions and nail these people and find them. If we
:57:31. > :57:35.bang heads together, it says that we bang heads together, it says that we
:57:36. > :57:41.can solve this. I hope so. I hope so. It is clear the relaxation of
:57:42. > :57:46.the pension regulations in 2014 has coincided with a huge rise in this
:57:47. > :57:50.crime. That was a mistake, though, wasn't it? I don't think it was a
:57:51. > :57:55.mistake. You can't win both these things together. Many people are.
:57:56. > :58:10.They're saying since 2014, people have got the money now. We saw in
:58:11. > :58:13.the clip, people can be scanned a number of times. It is important to
:58:14. > :58:18.shed information to make sure it doesn't happen to you or your family
:58:19. > :58:22.again. Generals are targeting older people and basically playing on
:58:23. > :58:26.their trust, trying to secure friendships. There's no doubt that
:58:27. > :58:31.the Treasury should have realised that with elderly people, this is
:58:32. > :58:32.one of the consequences that could have came from it.
:58:33. > :58:35.And now it's time for some of the other news you may have
:58:36. > :58:40.missed in 60 Seconds with Yetunde Yusuf.
:58:41. > :58:44.A Kent MP says Charlton Athletic Football Club should not be allowed
:58:45. > :58:46.to investigate itself over allegations of historical abuse
:58:47. > :58:51.Chair of the Culture, Media and Sport Dommittee Damian Collins
:58:52. > :58:53.has expressed his concern after the former Charlton youth
:58:54. > :58:56.player Russell Davy alleged he was abused in the 1980s by Eddie
:58:57. > :59:08.There needs to be a full independent investigation commissioned
:59:09. > :59:10.by the Football Association which looks at what went wrong.
:59:11. > :59:12.Villages and small towns across Sussex are struggling
:59:13. > :59:15.to cope with thousands of new homes being built.
:59:16. > :59:19.According to the Council for the Protection of Rural England,
:59:20. > :59:22.it found that residents fear losing their green spaces and feel
:59:23. > :59:29.And residents of the Trench ward in Tonbridge have elected
:59:30. > :59:30.Conservative candidate Georgina Thomas as
:59:31. > :59:34.She won 61% of the vote despite the greener Lib Dem
:59:35. > :59:37.candidate standing aside to support Labour's Fred Long in
:59:38. > :59:47.A final thought about Southern as we look ahead to three days
:59:48. > :59:49.of strikes by the drivers' union Aslef.
:59:50. > :59:54.Where do you think this is going to end?
:59:55. > :59:58.The day we get the industrial action solved there will be a vast
:59:59. > :00:03.improvement in the service. I hope that will be weeks and not months.
:00:04. > :00:04.From that moment on, there will be incremental improvements over the
:00:05. > :00:05.next two years. That's all we've got time
:00:06. > :00:08.for from the South East this week. My thanks to our guests for today,
:00:09. > :00:10.Peter Kyle and Nus Ghani. Julia will be back next week
:00:11. > :00:12.with all the political news still the biggest factor. We are
:00:13. > :00:14.running out of time. Now, Foreign Secretary
:00:15. > :00:28.Boris Johnson was rebuked by Downing Street this week -
:00:29. > :00:31.yes, again - after the Guardian revealed he had accused Saudi Arabia
:00:32. > :00:33.of being among countries engaged in fighting "proxy wars"
:00:34. > :00:36.in the Middle East, breaking the Foreign Office's convention
:00:37. > :00:38.of not criticising a key UK ally in the region and annoying the prime
:00:39. > :00:41.minister who'd just returned The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon
:00:42. > :00:48.was asked about it And let's be very clear about this,
:00:49. > :00:56.the way some of his remarks were reported seemed to imply
:00:57. > :00:58.we didn't support the right of Saudi Arabia to defend itself,
:00:59. > :01:01.and it is being attacked by Houthi terrorists from over
:01:02. > :01:03.the border with Yemen, didn't support what Saudi is doing
:01:04. > :01:06.in leading the campaign to restore Some of the reporting led people
:01:07. > :01:13.to think that, and that is all... This was simply the way
:01:14. > :01:16.it was reported and interpreted. The way it was interpreted left
:01:17. > :01:18.people with the impression that we didn't support Saudi Arabia
:01:19. > :01:27.and we do. Well, Mr Johnson has been
:01:28. > :01:29.in the Saudi capital Riyadh this morning,
:01:30. > :01:31.so how's he been received? Our security correspondent
:01:32. > :01:33.Frank Gardner is in neighbouring Bahrain, where Mr Johnson
:01:34. > :01:44.was earlier in the weekend. It has probably been a long time
:01:45. > :01:48.since there has been such interest in a British Foreign Secretary
:01:49. > :01:55.visiting the gulf region. What are the political elites there making of
:01:56. > :01:59.it all? Well, they think to be honest it is a bit of a storm in a
:02:00. > :02:04.tea cup this is a bit of a Whitehall story, I think a lot of people I
:02:05. > :02:08.have spoken to tend to believe that Number Ten have made such a fuss
:02:09. > :02:13.about this, that it has created a story in itself. That said, though,
:02:14. > :02:17.I think that behind the scenes there was a certain amount of damage
:02:18. > :02:22.limitation taking place between London and Riyadh, a bit of
:02:23. > :02:26.smoothing of feathers and reassuring and the Stade Saudis tell me they
:02:27. > :02:31.are reassured the message they are taking is. Coming from Number Ten
:02:32. > :02:35.and they are not taking Boris Johnson's comments to heart. He is
:02:36. > :02:40.in the dam, he has met the king, I tweet add picture of that just a few
:02:41. > :02:45.minutes ago. He has been meeting Crown Prince, and he is now meeting
:02:46. > :02:49.the Foreign Minister, so the Saudis got an opportunity to brief him
:02:50. > :02:52.according to their vision of the Middle East. They will share their
:02:53. > :02:57.security concern, which is not just what is going on in Yemen, but they
:02:58. > :03:01.are very concerned about what they see as Iranian expansionism, that
:03:02. > :03:04.has been a theme here at this conference in Bahrain that Boris
:03:05. > :03:09.Johnson addressed only a day or two ago. If we put aside Mr Johnson's
:03:10. > :03:14.supposed gaffes or even the Downing Street slapping down of him, we have
:03:15. > :03:22.had the Prime Minister in the region earlier this week, we have got Mr
:03:23. > :03:31.Johnson there now, can we yet divine what the May Government strategy is
:03:32. > :03:36.in the Golf? -- Guff. In three words, in Boris Johnson's words
:03:37. > :03:43.Britain is back. He was very quick to say not in a jingoistic running
:03:44. > :03:48.up flags, new imperial list way, although that is Howley be seen by
:03:49. > :03:53.some. He gave a very forceful speech which seemed to go down well the
:03:54. > :03:59.gulf hosts here on Friday night which said Britain made a strategic
:04:00. > :04:04.mistake in, after 1968 in withdrawing east of Suez and it will
:04:05. > :04:12.reverse that decision, and invest ?3 billion over the next ten years in
:04:13. > :04:14.building up its military not bases exactly but facilities -- facilities
:04:15. > :04:17.that are here in this part of the world. There are currently 15
:04:18. > :04:22.hundred hundred British servicemen and women in this region, seven
:04:23. > :04:26.warships and so on. It isn't entirely true to say Britain
:04:27. > :04:31.withdrew east of Suez because we have had a military presence on and
:04:32. > :04:37.off here, the RAF had a base here in Bahrain during the Gulf War of 91.
:04:38. > :04:44.In 2003, of course, British planes and troops deployed from this area,
:04:45. > :04:48.but he and Theresa May are both saying post-Brexit, Britain's big
:04:49. > :04:52.emphasis or one of the big pushes is going to be to redouble its ties
:04:53. > :04:59.with gulf Arab nations, that isn't going to come as an easy bit of new,
:05:00. > :05:05.I think, to human rights campaigners and anti-arms campaigners because a
:05:06. > :05:07.large part of the ?7 billion of bilateral trade Britain did with
:05:08. > :05:13.Saudi Arabia comes from arms deals and those arms are being used in the
:05:14. > :05:15.conflict in Yemen, in some cases with tragic consequences. Thank you
:05:16. > :05:25.very much for talking to us. Instead of concentrating on Mr
:05:26. > :05:31.Johnson's gaffes, or Downing Street reaction to it. Frank Gardner there
:05:32. > :05:35.has just given us a really important development, or explained what the
:05:36. > :05:39.British are up to there now. They want to be back in the gulf big
:05:40. > :05:43.time. Isn't that something we should be debating and discussing? It is
:05:44. > :05:48.fascinating. It is yet another example post-Brexit I would say this
:05:49. > :05:52.is someone who voted to Brexit, that the world is changing, and Britain's
:05:53. > :05:58.role is going to be transformed post-Brexit. I mean just on the
:05:59. > :06:02.Boris point, I completely agree, I think a lot of it is ridiculous, in
:06:03. > :06:07.a Whitehall belt way stuff, but I think what is really important about
:06:08. > :06:11.it, is that Number Ten feel threatened by him, and the reason
:06:12. > :06:17.that these ridiculous gaffes and many of them are not even gaffes are
:06:18. > :06:22.pounced upon is he is the main rival for the Crown, so it is high level
:06:23. > :06:25.power play politics, and it is May trying to keep him in his place.
:06:26. > :06:32.What do you make though, of Britain is back in the gulf? That is the big
:06:33. > :06:36.story, is it not. Utterly bizarre, post imperial fantasy, the idea we
:06:37. > :06:42.are back east of Suez? We are breaking off from our closest ally,
:06:43. > :06:46.most like us, the rest of Europe, democratic, decent human rights
:06:47. > :06:52.country, and instead we are allying ourself to perilous, dangerous,
:06:53. > :07:00.unpleasant countries... Why should we be back in the gulf? If that is
:07:01. > :07:05.the trade off, these are, you know, these renasty kingdoms, petty
:07:06. > :07:09.unpleasant and unstable countries. Don't we have to keep the straits
:07:10. > :07:13.open otherwise the oil supply collapses and the world economy will
:07:14. > :07:18.go into the worst recession depression ever? Don't we have to be
:07:19. > :07:21.involved in that We do, and I think what happens is if we leave Europe
:07:22. > :07:26.and we need trade everywhere else, we have to travel the world on our
:07:27. > :07:32.knees begging for friends from the most unsavoury people, where ever
:07:33. > :07:37.they are, whether it is... You keep saying we are leaving Europe, that
:07:38. > :07:41.is a geographic impossibility. Britain is part of Europe, we are
:07:42. > :07:45.the... Not what Liam Fox is saying. The key power in Nato, we are
:07:46. > :07:51.leaving the European Union, that is a different Tring from Europe. I am
:07:52. > :07:56.trying to move away from Mr Johnson, or even Downing Street to... You got
:07:57. > :08:00.yourself into a Brexit row. Everything is through the prism of
:08:01. > :08:04.Brexit, even what you have for breakfast, when you mix up the word
:08:05. > :08:10.like I did last week. What do you make of what Frank Gardner told us?
:08:11. > :08:13.I am somewhere between the two. It is a nighs the line say we are back
:08:14. > :08:16.in the Middle East and we will take this part of the world seriously,
:08:17. > :08:21.the truth is our military is almost tiny, it is smaller than it was in
:08:22. > :08:27.the Napoleonic wars, that is not a huge amount more. Of course there S
:08:28. > :08:32.one of the two new aircraft carriers, that will be deployed in
:08:33. > :08:40.the gulf, to help the Americans keep the straits of her muz open, because
:08:41. > :08:43.it is in Europe's interest, not just Britains, Europe's interest that
:08:44. > :08:50.these straits stay open, which is more so than America. That is what
:08:51. > :08:55.FRANK was talking about. That is no change, British foreign policy has
:08:56. > :09:02.been keeping the straits open... Now we have the ability do it. We don't
:09:03. > :09:11.have an aircraft aier at the moment. Nor do we have the fleet of ships it
:09:12. > :09:15.needs. It is a great thing to be trade morgue with the Nice, to be
:09:16. > :09:19.turning -- Middle East, to be turning round more tax revenues and
:09:20. > :09:24.the like. Even selling weapons. I don't know what more can be done.
:09:25. > :09:27.You look at what has happened. BBC has had horrific reports from the
:09:28. > :09:31.Yemen and if you look at what the weapons are being used for, is that
:09:32. > :09:37.the trade we want? Right. Let us move on. Mr Corbyn was giving a
:09:38. > :09:39.speech yesterday but he was inter#ru79ded by Peter Tatchell.
:09:40. > :09:52.Peter, could we leave this to the questions please?
:09:53. > :09:55.Peter, we are trying to make a speech here and then
:09:56. > :10:08.Was Peter Tatchell right do that yesterday? It is a bit of a
:10:09. > :10:14.distraction really. Jeremy Corbyn 17% in the polled is not going to be
:10:15. > :10:18.able to change... You mean his personal rating. If you want to do
:10:19. > :10:24.something about Syria you ought to be addressing the Government rather
:10:25. > :10:27.than a failing Labour leader. Peter Tatchell's line was Labour in
:10:28. > :10:33.general, Mr Corbyn in particular had not been vocal enough in condemning
:10:34. > :10:40.what the Russians and their Assad allies are doing in Aleppo. It was
:10:41. > :10:43.interesting Mr Corbyn had to ask Emily Thornberry if and when had
:10:44. > :10:51.they condemned what the Russians were doing? It was unclear. Other
:10:52. > :10:56.than Mrs Thornbury herself. There is a fascinating fault line in politics
:10:57. > :11:00.which is the Trump administration, the way in which parts of the
:11:01. > :11:06.British left have made themselves useful idiots once again for the
:11:07. > :11:09.Kremlin and it its policies. I think more broadly, you consider all the
:11:10. > :11:13.things we have been discussing, it is a national tragedy what is
:11:14. > :11:19.happening to the Labour Party. You don't know whether to laugh or cry
:11:20. > :11:23.watching that event. Corbyn was at a stop the war rally event only last
:11:24. > :11:28.week, and they of course are very close to the Kremlin, they blame the
:11:29. > :11:35.west, well they blame the west much more... They always blame the west.
:11:36. > :11:39.And not the Russians. I agree Jeremy Corbyn having to check with Emily
:11:40. > :11:45.Thornberry what the Labour Party's policy was on bombing Aleppo... If
:11:46. > :11:51.and when they condemned it. He needs to no better. The fact that we are
:11:52. > :11:55.talking about what was a pretty small scale protest, rather than
:11:56. > :11:59.anything Corbyn said, shows he wasn't saying anything relevant. We
:12:00. > :12:03.will get a huge amount of tweet saying the BBC are anti-Corbyn. I
:12:04. > :12:06.understand that, that shouldn't intimidate us from saying, from
:12:07. > :12:11.analysing what is happening, and here is one yard stick, of course it
:12:12. > :12:14.is fundamentally the Government's choice, but it could be an indicator
:12:15. > :12:21.of whether the Labour Party is relevant or not in only issues, in
:12:22. > :12:25.reason pert Murdoch is making a take over bid for all of Sky and so far
:12:26. > :12:30.you would have to bet, policy, that it is going to get through pretty
:12:31. > :12:34.much unscathed. It is extraordinary. It is connected with Leveson, and
:12:35. > :12:37.the fact that that has disappeared. That the idea of restraining the
:12:38. > :12:42.press in any way at all, and virtual will I the whole of the press is
:12:43. > :12:47.behind that, and it seems to go with allowing what wasn't allowed before.
:12:48. > :12:53.He was judged as unfit before. He is as unfit now, to control that much
:12:54. > :12:57.of the media, and as he was when he made the last bid for Sky. It is
:12:58. > :13:02.time people stood up and said so. You look at the press he runs, the
:13:03. > :13:07.cultural effect he has has on this country which has been appalling,
:13:08. > :13:13.you know about this. Tom, I better let you have a word. I don't agree
:13:14. > :13:19.at all Polly but the lesson for the Labour Party, is if they don't want
:13:20. > :13:23.to have any influence at all, they have to be credible, and stand a
:13:24. > :13:25.reasonable chance of becoming Prime Minister or becoming Government,
:13:26. > :13:30.that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.
:13:31. > :13:36.I was going to say we will come back to it. We will see. The Daily
:13:37. > :13:39.Politics will be back at noon tomorrow.
:13:40. > :13:42.and we'll be back here next Sunday for the last show of 2016.
:13:43. > :14:18.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:19. > :14:44.# We're going to have a party tonight
:14:45. > :14:49.# I'm going to find that boy underneath the mistletoe