:00:40. > :00:44.Commons Speaker John Bercow is accused of compromising his
:00:45. > :00:47.impartiality by revealing he voted Remain in last year's EU referendum.
:00:48. > :00:56.The EU Withdrawal Bill clears its first Parliamentary hurdle.
:00:57. > :00:58.But will the House of Lords be quite so accommodating?
:00:59. > :01:05.Labour's Leader in the Lords joins us live.
:01:06. > :01:10.And we report from Stoke-on-Trent ahead of a crucial by-election
:01:11. > :01:15.And in the South East... Ukip is looking to give
:01:16. > :01:18.We visit a project in Sussex that doctors say could offer
:01:19. > :01:23.an answer to the growing problem of loneliness.
:01:24. > :01:35.And with me a political panel who frequently like to compromise
:01:36. > :01:41.Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Janan Ganesh.
:01:42. > :01:47.I'll be trying to keep them in order during the course of the programme.
:01:48. > :01:50.So, Commons Speaker John Bercow has insisted his ability
:01:51. > :01:56.to act impartially is not damaged by reports that he voted to Remain
:01:57. > :02:03.The Sunday Telegraph reveals that Speaker Bercow revealed his views
:02:04. > :02:05.in front of an audience of students at Reading University
:02:06. > :02:22.This may not be popular with some people in this audience -
:02:23. > :02:26.I thought it was better to stay in the European Union than not,
:02:27. > :02:30.partly for economic reason, being part of a big trade bloc,
:02:31. > :02:34.and partly because I think we're in a world of power blocs,
:02:35. > :02:37.and I think for all the weaknesses and deficiencies
:02:38. > :02:40.of the European Union, it is better to be part of that big
:02:41. > :02:51.Speaker Bercow speaking at Reading University earlier this month. Does
:02:52. > :02:56.he not care is this I get that impression, he knows perfectly well,
:02:57. > :02:59.it states he has to be particularly -- Parliamentary neural. Whether
:03:00. > :03:04.there are going to be enough votes to force him out, the question, the
:03:05. > :03:09.last speaker wept out with the 20 vote against him. You yes to have
:03:10. > :03:16.the command of the support across the House. There is a Deputy
:03:17. > :03:25.Speaker, waiting, who would be superb. I think even the people who
:03:26. > :03:30.pretend to support Macis have had enough -- Speaker Bercow have had
:03:31. > :03:34.enough of his ways. The reason I ask whether he care, he didn't just tell
:03:35. > :03:38.the students that he voted to Remain, he then gave them a running
:03:39. > :03:45.commentary on all the issues that will be part of the Brexit
:03:46. > :03:48.negotiations, workers' rights, immigration, trade policy, everyone
:03:49. > :03:53.maternity leave got a hat tip from him. He would be a very well
:03:54. > :03:58.prepared Brexit minister if attendance needs a colleague --
:03:59. > :04:02.David Davis needs a colleague. I don't think this story makes his
:04:03. > :04:06.position untenable, what does is the wired pattern of behaviour of
:04:07. > :04:14.excessive candour on his political views, going back years, this is a
:04:15. > :04:21.guy who when the Queen visited Parliament described her as theical
:04:22. > :04:25.lied scope Queen. He had a running argument with David Cameron. We know
:04:26. > :04:35.his views on Brexit, we know his views on Donald Trump. . He has
:04:36. > :04:40.given interviews, none of the views are illegitimate but the candour
:04:41. > :04:44.which they are expressed with is scrupulous. Given Lyndsay Hoyle is a
:04:45. > :04:49.class accuse. He is the Deputy Speaker. And a fairly ready
:04:50. > :04:54.replacement, whether there is more of a movement to say, maybe not
:04:55. > :04:58.force Bercow out but acknowledge he has had a few years in the job and
:04:59. > :05:04.the question of successor ship comes into play. Has he concluded he is
:05:05. > :05:08.untouchable? What I can definitely say, is that he is determined to
:05:09. > :05:12.fight this one out, and not go of his own volition, so if he goes he
:05:13. > :05:18.will have to be forced out. He wants to stay. Which will be tough. It
:05:19. > :05:22.will be tough. Likely as things stand. I would say this, I speak to
:05:23. > :05:27.someone who likes the way he has brought the House of Commons to
:05:28. > :05:30.life, held ministers to account, forced them into explain thing,
:05:31. > :05:34.whenever there is a topical issue you know it will be in the House of
:05:35. > :05:41.Commons. He has changed that. He has. Time has been courageous, Ied a
:05:42. > :05:48.mire the way he has been a speaker. I would say this, during the
:05:49. > :05:51.referendum campaign, he asked me Nick Clegg, and Peter Hitchens to
:05:52. > :05:56.debate Brexit if his constituency. It was a packed out meeting. He
:05:57. > :06:01.chaired it. I said don't you want to join in? He didn't. He showed no
:06:02. > :06:08.desire to join in, he was impartial. He goes out to universities and kind
:06:09. > :06:14.of demyth GCSEs Parliament by speaking to them in a way, he
:06:15. > :06:21.doesn't gets credit for it and stays on after and drinks with them.
:06:22. > :06:26.Sometimes he, you know, it is clearly a mistake to have gone into
:06:27. > :06:29.his views retrospectively on that referendum campaign, I don't think
:06:30. > :06:32.that, did he try and stop Article 50 from being triggered in the House of
:06:33. > :06:37.Commons? That would be a scandal. Even that would be beyond him.
:06:38. > :06:43.Briefly, yes or no, could you imagine Betty Boothroyd behaving
:06:44. > :06:47.like that? Not at all. None of the recent speakers I could imagine
:06:48. > :06:50.doing that. It is good he is different.
:06:51. > :06:54.The bill that will allow the government to trigger Article 50
:06:55. > :06:56.and begin Brexit negotiations was voted through
:06:57. > :07:01.Many MPs were in a difficult position - unsure whether to vote
:07:02. > :07:02.with their conscience, their constituency,
:07:03. > :07:05.Europe, once such a divisive issue for the Conservatives,
:07:06. > :07:07.is now causing major divisions inside the Labour Party.
:07:08. > :07:13.So, let's have a look what happened in a bit more detail:
:07:14. > :07:15.Thanks to academic research carried out since the referendum,
:07:16. > :07:17.we now have estimates of how each individual constituency voted.
:07:18. > :07:23.It's thought that 410 constituencies voted Leave.
:07:24. > :07:31.On Wednesday night, the EU Notification of Withdrawal Bill
:07:32. > :07:33.was voted through by the House of Commons.
:07:34. > :07:42.The bill left the Labour Party divided.
:07:43. > :07:44.Jeremy Corbyn told his MPs to respect the result
:07:45. > :07:46.of the referendum and vote for the government's bill -
:07:47. > :07:50.But 52 Labour MPs defied Mr Corbyn's thee-line whip
:07:51. > :08:05.That's about a fifth of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
:08:06. > :08:08.Of those 52 Labour MPs who voted against the bill,
:08:09. > :08:10.the majority, 45 of them, represent seats that voted Remain.
:08:11. > :08:13.However, seven Labour MPs voted against the Article 50 Bill,
:08:14. > :08:15.even though their constituents voted Leave in the referendum.
:08:16. > :08:16.The Conservative Party were much more united.
:08:17. > :08:20.The vast majority of Tory MPs, 320 of them, voted for the bill.
:08:21. > :08:22.Just one Conservative MP, Ken Clarke, voted against it.
:08:23. > :08:23.His constituency, Rushcliffe in Nottinghamshire, voted Remain.
:08:24. > :08:26.The bill will now go to the House of Lords -
:08:27. > :08:40.peers will start debating it on Monday the 20th of February.
:08:41. > :08:42.Joining me now is Matthew Goodwin, politics professor at
:08:43. > :08:45.He's got a book out next month called
:08:46. > :08:47.Brexit: Why Britain Voted To Leave The European Union.
:08:48. > :08:55.Welcome to the programme. Has Brexit, how you voted in the
:08:56. > :08:59.referendum and your continuing attitudes toward it, is that now
:09:00. > :09:04.becoming the new dividing line in British politics? I think it
:09:05. > :09:08.certainly is contributing to a new dividing line, in western politics
:09:09. > :09:12.more generally, we know over the last ten years, that the old left
:09:13. > :09:16.and right division has been making way for a new division, between
:09:17. > :09:20.essentially social liberals and Conservative, and Brexit was a, an
:09:21. > :09:24.incident a moment that really reflected that new dividing line, so
:09:25. > :09:31.it wasn't just the case that Brexit has cut across Labour's base, it is
:09:32. > :09:36.that dividing line, that deeper division is cutting across social
:09:37. > :09:39.democracies more generally. Is there a possibility, no higher than that,
:09:40. > :09:44.that it will reShane our party politics? I think it is too early to
:09:45. > :09:48.know whether this is a fundamental long-term realignment. If we look at
:09:49. > :09:54.what is happening in local by-election, what is happening at
:09:55. > :10:01.by-elections, pictures a bit mixed but if you look at how some of the
:10:02. > :10:05.Labour vote is responding, I think that potentially reflects the
:10:06. > :10:09.possibility of a terminal decline for the Labour Party, it is going to
:10:10. > :10:13.be incredibly difficult for Labour to win these voters back, these are
:10:14. > :10:17.traditional working class, socially Conservative voters who are leaving
:10:18. > :10:21.the party, don't forget, since the 1997 general election. It is not
:10:22. > :10:26.just because of the referendum. If that was the case, Labour would
:10:27. > :10:30.become more a party of the Metropolitan areas, and less of a
:10:31. > :10:35.party outside of these area, is that what you are saying? What we are S
:10:36. > :10:40.seeing across the west can social democracy that retrenchment into the
:10:41. > :10:44.cosmopolitan, Metropolitan city area, university towns, you can
:10:45. > :10:48.seeing in many European states populist right parties filling the
:10:49. > :10:54.traditional socialist area, why are they doing that? Because they are
:10:55. > :10:58.offering two message, economic and cultural protectionism. Social
:10:59. > :11:01.Democrats are clinging to that economic protectionism but not
:11:02. > :11:05.saying much about migration and multiculturalism and that sort of
:11:06. > :11:08.stuff. Are there deeper forces at work than Jeremy Corbyn? He often
:11:09. > :11:13.gets the blame for what is happening to the Labour Party now, but if you
:11:14. > :11:20.look the way the Greek socialist party has been wiped out. The German
:11:21. > :11:23.Social Democrats are in trouble. The Italian socialist party has lost a
:11:24. > :11:29.referendum. The French socialist are coming close to being wiped out on
:11:30. > :11:33.April 23rd, Labour's problems, are part of a much wider problem of
:11:34. > :11:37.social democracy S Jeremy Corbyn is a surface problem, what I mean by
:11:38. > :11:41.that is you could replace him tosh with another leader, they would
:11:42. > :11:47.still have this fundamental tension within the electorate. They are
:11:48. > :11:50.trying to appeal to two differenter reconcilable groups of voters who
:11:51. > :11:55.think differently about the key issues of the day. It is very
:11:56. > :12:01.difficult for any centre left party now to assemble the kinds of
:12:02. > :12:05.coalitionses we saw in the '90s with Clinton and Blair and Schroeder.
:12:06. > :12:10.Those days are gone. Does that explain why it is now Labour, rather
:12:11. > :12:14.than the Conservatives, historically the party divided over the European
:12:15. > :12:20.Union, does all of that help to explain why its Labour that now
:12:21. > :12:26.seems, disunited over the EU? I think so, I think also that the
:12:27. > :12:30.issue of Brexit, and the EU, is so immatly wrapped up with that issue
:12:31. > :12:35.of immigration, if you look at who has been abandoned Labour since 2015
:12:36. > :12:40.or the late 90s, the one thing those voters share is a rejection of the
:12:41. > :12:45.so-called liberal consensus on EU membership and mass immigration. It
:12:46. > :12:49.is difficult for any Labour lead eer co-bin or Clive Lewis on Dan Jarvis,
:12:50. > :12:54.to bring those voters back unless they are going to move on that
:12:55. > :12:59.cultural terrain. If they are not, they may not go to Ukip, they might
:13:00. > :13:00.go to somewhere more difficult for Labour which is political apathy.
:13:01. > :13:03.Thank you for that. Attention now shifts to the House
:13:04. > :13:06.of Lords where peers will begin scrutinising the EU Withdrawal Bill
:13:07. > :13:08.in just over a week. Brexit Secretary David Davis urged
:13:09. > :13:11.the Lords "to do its patriotic duty" and resist the urge to tinker
:13:12. > :13:14.with the legislation. Former minister Oliver Letwin
:13:15. > :13:16.went one further - mooting the possibility
:13:17. > :13:18.of the abolition of the Lords if it sought to frustrate
:13:19. > :13:20.the bill in any way. Here he is posing the question
:13:21. > :13:28.in the Commons on Thursday. Would he find time, in government
:13:29. > :13:31.time for a debate, should the other place seek to delay beyond the end
:13:32. > :13:34.of March the passage of our accession to Article 50, for this
:13:35. > :13:37.House to discuss the possibility of either the abolition or full-scale
:13:38. > :13:47.reform of the other place? And Oliver Letwin joins
:13:48. > :14:00.me now from Dorset. Welcome back to the programme Mr Let
:14:01. > :14:04.win. Before we come on to the Lord's, can I get your thoughts on a
:14:05. > :14:08.matter that has been making the news this morning and John Bercow's
:14:09. > :14:13.remarks about being a remain voter an giving something of a running
:14:14. > :14:18.commentary on various Brexit issues, has he sqloefr stepped the mark as
:14:19. > :14:26.speaker? -- overstepped the mark. I think this is slightly a fuss about
:14:27. > :14:29.nothing. Every person who thinks about politics will have had some
:14:30. > :14:32.opinion about great matters like Brexit, and I really don't see any
:14:33. > :14:39.particular reason why his opinion shouldn't be known after the fact.
:14:40. > :14:43.I, I was there throughout the five days of the Brexit debate, and I
:14:44. > :14:48.have to say, I thought he was pretty scrupulously fair in the way he
:14:49. > :14:51.handled the House, so, I, I don't really share the view that there is
:14:52. > :14:55.some terrible thing that has been revealed this weekend. Let me come
:14:56. > :15:02.on to what we are here to talk about, which is the Lords. Why have
:15:03. > :15:06.you raised the threat of the abolition of the Lord for doing its
:15:07. > :15:14.job of scrutinising what is coming out the Commons? Well, you know,
:15:15. > :15:18.Andrew, this question of the job of the House of Lords and scrutiny, has
:15:19. > :15:24.to be looked at carefully. There are all sorts of bills that come out the
:15:25. > :15:28.House of Commons which are detailed things that relate to, finance, and
:15:29. > :15:33.expenditure, and the criminal law, and all that sort of thing, and all
:15:34. > :15:37.of that, I admire the work that the House of Lords does, as you say
:15:38. > :15:42.scrutinising and we shouldn't use that word loosely, it means looking
:15:43. > :15:48.carefully at the detail, line by line of complicated legislation,
:15:49. > :15:52.hundreds of Paps in some cases, and spotting, using the considerable
:15:53. > :15:56.expertise many, not all be many of the peers have, in any given field,
:15:57. > :16:00.to identify things where the Commons has got it wrong in the sense that
:16:01. > :16:04.the legislation wouldn't achieve what the Government of the day is
:16:05. > :16:09.seeking to make it achieve. That is a serious proper role for an Upper
:16:10. > :16:13.House and the House of Lords performs it pretty
:16:14. > :16:23.Now this is a very different case. This is a two clause bill. The first
:16:24. > :16:29.clause which is the operative clause says the Prime Minister should go
:16:30. > :16:36.ahead and sign... I understand all that. We haven't got that much time,
:16:37. > :16:42.this is becoming a monologue. There is nothing to scrutinise, Andrew.
:16:43. > :16:47.There were plenty of amendments put before the Commons, none of them got
:16:48. > :16:51.through, it is true. There are eight Labour amendments in the Lords, are
:16:52. > :16:56.you resigned to this bill coming back to the Commons with amendments?
:16:57. > :17:00.No, it should not come back with amendments. There were hundreds of
:17:01. > :17:03.amendments literally put down in the House of Commons, they were all
:17:04. > :17:08.drunk. They were all trying one way or another to derail the process.
:17:09. > :17:15.This is a binary issue, should Theresa May sign the withdrawal or
:17:16. > :17:20.not? What should the Commons do? The Commons has now voted in favour of
:17:21. > :17:29.it. Node do should tolerate and unelected chamber forcing the
:17:30. > :17:33.British people... The people voted in a referendum and the Commons
:17:34. > :17:38.voted. The matter is now signed and sealed and should not be derailed by
:17:39. > :17:43.the House of Lords. On Labour amendment wants confirmation that
:17:44. > :17:46.when it is done, the potential Brexit agreement will be put before
:17:47. > :17:51.parliament before any vote in the European Parliament, that has been
:17:52. > :17:57.an agreed principle, what is wrong with that amendments? The government
:17:58. > :18:00.has already agreed there will be a vote, but actually, what the
:18:01. > :18:05.amendments were seeking was to give the Commons a further vote on
:18:06. > :18:08.whether we actually leave or not. That is already decided. Neither the
:18:09. > :18:14.House of Lords nor anybody else has a right in my view, despite the fact
:18:15. > :18:19.I was a remain, to what the will of the British people. Nobody should
:18:20. > :18:23.think an unelected chamber should now try to change the course of
:18:24. > :18:28.British history by asserting amendments in a very effective on
:18:29. > :18:31.clause bill which says go ahead and trigger Article 50. Are you
:18:32. > :18:35.concerned that amendments by the Lords which would then have to go
:18:36. > :18:42.back to the Commons for consideration, are you concerned
:18:43. > :18:47.that could derail or delay the Prime Minister's timetable for Article 50?
:18:48. > :18:51.Yes, exactly. That would be the result of a prolonged bout of
:18:52. > :18:55.ping-pong between the two houses, or much worse, if the House of Lords
:18:56. > :19:00.failed to give way and the Parliament act had to be used. It
:19:01. > :19:04.would really be intolerable. It is not good for our country. Those of
:19:05. > :19:09.us who voted remain would prefer for that not to happen. The whole
:19:10. > :19:14.country -- it is important for the whole country that this happens in a
:19:15. > :19:19.rapid way and allowing the government free rein to negotiate,
:19:20. > :19:23.that is surely in all our advantages? Deed think any efforts
:19:24. > :19:28.to abolish the House of Lords, an issue you have raised, does that
:19:29. > :19:35.make it easier because your friend David Cameron stuffed the upper
:19:36. > :19:39.chamber with donors, lapdogs and lingerie designers? I was among
:19:40. > :19:43.those who advocated for many years wholesale reform of the House of
:19:44. > :19:47.Lords, to turn it into a serious elected second chamber. I think we
:19:48. > :19:52.should have an upper house which commands legitimacy. This is a
:19:53. > :19:58.second issue. Here we have not got such a House and it seems to be very
:19:59. > :20:01.clear that it should not seek to derail on delay the action which has
:20:02. > :20:06.been mandated by the referendum, agreed by the House of Commons, and
:20:07. > :20:11.what we want to see now is a smooth orderly effect for this bill, so it
:20:12. > :20:16.becomes law and Theresa May can go ahead and negotiate on our behalf.
:20:17. > :20:20.One more question on the process, if the Lords to amend the bill and it
:20:21. > :20:26.goes back to the Commons and the Commons sends these amendments back
:20:27. > :20:32.again, take them out, how long could this ping-pong between the two
:20:33. > :20:37.chambers go on in your experience? It is a very, very interesting and
:20:38. > :20:41.complicated question with the clerks of the two ends of the Palace of
:20:42. > :20:47.Westminster not always agreeing about this. But through certain
:20:48. > :20:50.machinations of slightly changing amendments as they go, in my
:20:51. > :20:53.experience this could carry on for an awful long time if clever people,
:20:54. > :20:57.and there are plenty of clever people in the House of Lords, want
:20:58. > :21:01.to do that and that is precisely why I think we should not tolerate it.
:21:02. > :21:04.Oliver Letwin, thank you for joining us from Dorset.
:21:05. > :21:08.Joining me now is Labour's Leader in the House of Lords, Angela Smith.
:21:09. > :21:15.The Commons passed this bill without any amendments... There were
:21:16. > :21:20.changes, the government did concede a couple of points. But the
:21:21. > :21:25.amendments did not go through. Does that put pressure on the Lords to do
:21:26. > :21:29.the same? I think the Lords always feels under pressure to do the right
:21:30. > :21:35.thing. When I heard Oliver Letwin, I did not know whether to laugh or
:21:36. > :21:41.cry. We will not frustrate, we will not wreck, we will not sabotage. We
:21:42. > :21:44.will do what David Davis said was our patriotic duty. We will
:21:45. > :21:48.scrutinise the bill. We have at amendments from the Labour Party. We
:21:49. > :21:52.will look at those. It depends on the government response if we vote
:21:53. > :21:56.on those. There could be amendments asking the Commons to look again.
:21:57. > :22:02.That is normally what we do. It is not the wrong thing to do. But if
:22:03. > :22:06.you do this and make amendments, it then goes back to the Commons. If
:22:07. > :22:10.the Commons rejects the Lords' amendments, what do you think will
:22:11. > :22:16.happen? I do not see any extended ping-pong at all. It is perfectly
:22:17. > :22:20.legitimate. We are not talking about the outcome of negotiations, we are
:22:21. > :22:24.talking about the process. The process of engaging with Parliament
:22:25. > :22:27.and reporting to Parliament. It would be totally responsible for
:22:28. > :22:31.Parliament to say, off you go, Theresa May, have two years of
:22:32. > :22:35.negotiation and come back and talk to us at the end. The has to be a
:22:36. > :22:39.process where the government can use the expertise of parliament to get
:22:40. > :22:45.this right. But if you do put in some amendments, it has to go back
:22:46. > :22:48.to the Commons, they may well say they don't want those amendments and
:22:49. > :22:53.it may go back to the Lords, could that at the very least delay the
:22:54. > :22:58.Prime Minister's Brexit timetable? I don't think so. She said the end of
:22:59. > :23:02.March. Time has been built in for all the normal processes. I think
:23:03. > :23:06.Oliver Letwin and others are getting a bit overexcited. This is the
:23:07. > :23:09.normal process. Unless the government get things right the
:23:10. > :23:14.first time every time, the has to be this kind of process. These are
:23:15. > :23:18.reasonable amendments. This is a Labour amendment we are talking
:23:19. > :23:32.about here, you want a vote in the UK Parliament before any
:23:33. > :23:36.vote in the European Parliament if and when the Brexit deal is done,
:23:37. > :23:39.the Commons and the Lords get to vote on it first. But the government
:23:40. > :23:42.I think have already agreed to that so what is the point? It needs to be
:23:43. > :23:45.on the face of the bill. It is over well if the government have agreed
:23:46. > :23:49.it. Lord dubs had an agreement about child and look what happened to
:23:50. > :23:54.that. Does not sound as if you would go to the wire on that? It is
:23:55. > :23:59.important it is not just about the vote at the end, you have the
:24:00. > :24:05.ongoing engagement. If it is going to be a bad deal, we need to know
:24:06. > :24:10.long before we get to that stage? Is it something you would hold out for?
:24:11. > :24:15.I don't know yet. It is about how the House of Lords votes, Labour do
:24:16. > :24:18.not have a majority, we never had a majority in the House of Lords when
:24:19. > :24:24.we were in government. It is wrong to suggest that we cannot debate
:24:25. > :24:30.these issues... I don't think anyone is suggesting that. They are. It is
:24:31. > :24:33.not unfair to ask the government to ask the House of Commons to look
:24:34. > :24:37.again to look at those issues if that is what the House of Lords
:24:38. > :24:42.decides. Bit of the House of Commons says we looked, we are sticking with
:24:43. > :24:47.what we voted for, we rejected every amendment by at least 30 votes on
:24:48. > :24:51.all occasions, the Lords then have to buckle, is that what you are
:24:52. > :24:55.saying? Some point I think it is clear the House of Commons have to
:24:56. > :24:59.have its say. I think it is inconceivable that having had a
:25:00. > :25:04.referendum, which was not overwhelming, but it was a clear
:25:05. > :25:07.result, the House of Lords has no intention of sabotaging that but
:25:08. > :25:11.there are things which are not good about the process that we think
:25:12. > :25:15.could be improved. We have not just have the result of the referendum
:25:16. > :25:21.which voted to leave, but we have had the will of the Commons that
:25:22. > :25:27.passed this legislation by a majority of 372. And I am not
:25:28. > :25:32.contesting that for a second! Could you cite a precedent for the upper
:25:33. > :25:36.house amending a bill which passed by 372 votes in the Commons? Quite
:25:37. > :25:39.other things will come to the House of Lords with big majorities from
:25:40. > :25:44.the Commons and quite often the amendments we get, with that then
:25:45. > :25:49.forward and the government sees it could do better. Though not
:25:50. > :25:52.necessarily saying the government has got things wrong, but they could
:25:53. > :25:58.do things better. That happens time and time again and it is not
:25:59. > :26:02.unusual. If you were seen to thwart the referendum result and the vote
:26:03. > :26:07.in the Commons, the elected chamber of parliament, is the threat of
:26:08. > :26:11.abolition hanging over you? I think that is really ridiculous and
:26:12. > :26:14.absolute nonsense. We are not tying to what the decision of the House of
:26:15. > :26:18.Commons, we are trying to do better. It is a bit rich of the government
:26:19. > :26:23.and Oliver Letwin to complain about getting things through in time when
:26:24. > :26:27.the House of Commons spent -- the government spent three months trying
:26:28. > :26:31.to debate this issue. There have been some strong questions put to
:26:32. > :26:34.the government from the House of Lords on all sides. I don't know if
:26:35. > :26:43.the amendments have been passed or not. I think we have a good case for
:26:44. > :26:51.the government to get debate the point. If a traditional MP like
:26:52. > :26:54.Oliver Letwin is calling for the abolition of the hereditary and
:26:55. > :26:58.appointed chamber, and the Labour person like yourself was trying to
:26:59. > :27:03.defend that, that would not be a sustainable position, I would
:27:04. > :27:06.suggest! We saw this with the Strathclyde report as well, this is
:27:07. > :27:09.a government like no other. It is the first Conservative government in
:27:10. > :27:14.history not to have an automatic majority. They do not like challenge
:27:15. > :27:20.or scrutiny. But you get my point, Labour cannot go to the wire in
:27:21. > :27:23.defending and an elected second chamber, can it? Actually, Labour
:27:24. > :27:26.can go to the wire in saying the government does not get it right
:27:27. > :27:33.every time. House of Lords is going to normal processes and people like
:27:34. > :27:37.Oliver Letwin are really getting a little bit over excited, and people
:27:38. > :27:44.who have been anonymously briefing. Who has been anonymously briefing? I
:27:45. > :27:46.don't know, they are anonymous! I understand people want to make
:27:47. > :27:51.amendments, that is the role of the House of Lords, but can I just for
:27:52. > :27:54.the avoidance of doubt, is it still your case that whatever amendments
:27:55. > :28:00.to make, whatever may go back and forward, it is not your intention to
:28:01. > :28:05.stop Article 50 being triggered by the end of March? I have been saying
:28:06. > :28:08.that, exactly that for months and months and months. It is
:28:09. > :28:12.inconceivable that an unelected House will thwart the will of the
:28:13. > :28:16.House of Commons and a referendum on this issue. But that does not mean
:28:17. > :28:21.we will be bullied by Oliver Letwin and others. But the triggering will
:28:22. > :28:26.happen by the end of March? I very much suspect so unless Theresa May
:28:27. > :28:29.has second thoughts, I suspect that will happen. Thank you.
:28:30. > :28:31.Now, just because it's parliamentary recess next week
:28:32. > :28:35.There are two by-elections round the corner -
:28:36. > :28:37.one in Copeland, and another in Stoke-on-Trent Central
:28:38. > :28:38.where the former Shadow Education Secretary,
:28:39. > :28:41.Tristram Hunt, vacated his seat to take up a role
:28:42. > :28:44.as Director of the Victoria Albert Museum in London.
:28:45. > :28:46.But Labour are facing a fight to hold onto the constituency
:28:47. > :28:52.Seconds away, Ukip's new leader has stepped into the ring
:28:53. > :28:55.as their candidate in a by-election bout to see
:28:56. > :29:02.At the last election Ukip came second to Labour here
:29:03. > :29:07.But now they are confident they can land a knockout blow,
:29:08. > :29:14.because this place is packed with people that voted to leave the EU.
:29:15. > :29:17.70% of people voted to leave the European Union.
:29:18. > :29:25.I'm the only candidate standing in this election
:29:26. > :29:27.who is a true Brexiteer, who has always campaigned to leave
:29:28. > :29:30.the EU and therefore I believe I would be the best person
:29:31. > :29:33.But he has had to fight off allegations
:29:34. > :29:36.he wasn't living in the constituency when he entered the contest.
:29:37. > :29:39.Explain to me what is going on with this issue about your house?
:29:40. > :29:41.Well, we took up the lease the day before nominations.
:29:42. > :29:44.Everything we've done is perfectly legal and within the law.
:29:45. > :29:49.The Labour Party are trying to get off the real issues in this election
:29:50. > :29:56.and focus on something which is banal nonsense.
:29:57. > :30:01.And there's been trouble as well for the Labour contender.
:30:02. > :30:04.He's been labelled a Remoaner after he sent a series
:30:05. > :30:07.of anti-Brexit tweets, filled with words
:30:08. > :30:17.I can't believe I'm about to ask this question in a nursery
:30:18. > :30:20.on a Sunday morning TV programme, but did you really tweet that
:30:21. > :30:25.I tweeted many things about Brexit, that's tweet is out there.
:30:26. > :30:27.It was done quite after the referendum result and it
:30:28. > :30:30.was my way of showing my frustration at the fact that months
:30:31. > :30:36.after the result we hadn't had anything from the government.
:30:37. > :30:37.Theresa May had failed to produce any plan,
:30:38. > :30:39.she had failed to give any meaningful statement
:30:40. > :30:41.about what Brexit meant other than bland statements
:30:42. > :30:44.about Brexit is Brexit, and it's a hard Brexit, or a soft Brexit.
:30:45. > :30:48.The context of it was it was out of frustration.
:30:49. > :30:52.So you didn't mean to insult the 70% of the people who live here
:30:53. > :30:55.I never mean to insult anybody and you know,
:30:56. > :30:58.I've made it quite clear, if I'm elected as the member
:30:59. > :31:00.of Parliament for Stoke-on-Trent Central, I will absolutely respect
:31:01. > :31:02.the wishes of the people of Stoke Central.
:31:03. > :31:06.I will make sure my vote in parliament is to trigger Article 50.
:31:07. > :31:09.While the Tories' man has done little bit of rebranding too.
:31:10. > :31:12.I voted Remain and I've been open about that, but my top priority
:31:13. > :31:14.is about the economy and to ensure we still have an
:31:15. > :31:18.Theresa May has set out clear proposal to ensure we develop
:31:19. > :31:28.a trade relationship with Europe and make that a success.
:31:29. > :31:31.It means the Lib Dems and the Greens are the ones battling Brexit.
:31:32. > :31:33.Well, when the Lib Dem candidate is actually here.
:31:34. > :31:39.The candidate is a consultant cardiologist.
:31:40. > :31:42.He is actually at work today doing very important heart surgery.
:31:43. > :31:45.He will be back tomorrow, back on the campaign trail working hard.
:31:46. > :31:48.30% of people voted to Remain and nobody else
:31:49. > :31:52.is representing them, so, you know, it is still a live issue.
:31:53. > :31:54.It is still something people care about.
:31:55. > :31:57.We are only at the start of the Article 50 process
:31:58. > :32:02.We are very a clear that we are standing up for those
:32:03. > :32:05.who want to remain in the single market, who want to protect jobs
:32:06. > :32:10.Labour have taken people for granted in this area for a great many years.
:32:11. > :32:12.Ukip, I'm afraid, all Ukip can offer to politics is division.
:32:13. > :32:15.I've covered a lot of by-elections where Ukip have come second.
:32:16. > :32:18.We'll find out if they really got Labour on the ropes this
:32:19. > :32:38.And here is a full list of all the candidates standing
:32:39. > :32:48.in the Stoke-on-Trent Central by-election.
:32:49. > :32:57.They do atract lots of candidates. You can get that on the BBC website
:32:58. > :33:05.as well. I was trying to think back, here we have the main opposition
:33:06. > :33:07.party defending two seats in by-elections in the midterm of a
:33:08. > :33:15.government. All the speculation is where the
:33:16. > :33:19.opposition party can hold on, that is unprecedented. I can't give of an
:33:20. > :33:25.equivalent. You wouldn't just expect them to win seats they have held
:33:26. > :33:31.traditionally, you would expect hem to make inroads into seats held by
:33:32. > :33:35.the other party, I wonder if they fail to hold on to just one of
:33:36. > :33:41.these, whether it accelerates the momentum and criticism of the
:33:42. > :33:45.leadership of the moment. I think they are interesting constituencies.
:33:46. > :33:50.Matthew good win was talking about the left win coalition over the
:33:51. > :33:58.years, almost being too broad for its own good, including places like
:33:59. > :34:02.Primrose Hill and Hackney. Big university towns in Manchester,
:34:03. > :34:12.Bristol. Diverse ethnically and included places like Stoke which are
:34:13. > :34:17.more Conservative. With a small c. Less economically well-off, more
:34:18. > :34:20.diverse, can the left hang on to both bits of country. Recent
:34:21. > :34:24.evidence suggests it cannot and the opportunity for Ukip is to pick up
:34:25. > :34:28.the second of those two types of community, the Stokes and the cope
:34:29. > :34:31.lands. That what makes the by-elections interest I would
:34:32. > :34:36.suggest. It is not just about Mr Corbyn's future about which we hear
:34:37. > :34:40.too much, it is about this traditional Labour coalition, can it
:34:41. > :34:45.still survive, particularly in places like Stoke? Europe clearly is
:34:46. > :34:52.a test. I think it's a myth by the way that Labour are only split now,
:34:53. > :34:57.over Europe and it has always been a Tory problem, last time I was on I
:34:58. > :35:03.mentioned it. That is why we had a referendum in 75. That is why they
:35:04. > :35:09.had a round then. But they were in chaos behind the scenes over what
:35:10. > :35:13.they thought about the euro, skillful leadership can paper over
:35:14. > :35:18.the cracks, and to address the wider issue of whether we are now in an
:35:19. > :35:22.era where left right issues have disappeared, and there is more of a
:35:23. > :35:29.regional divide, if you take Europe out of the equation which you can't,
:35:30. > :35:33.but if you were able to, issues about health, transport housing do
:35:34. > :35:38.split more left-right than a regional divide, so I think there is
:35:39. > :35:44.still fundamental left-right issues, but Europe isn't one of them and
:35:45. > :35:48.Europe has to be managed by a Labour leader skill fully and evidently
:35:49. > :35:53.that hasn't happened now. How would you see the by-elections in the
:35:54. > :35:57.current political context? Labour should be walking them, it should be
:35:58. > :35:59.a sign of the March of the Labour Party taking on the current
:36:00. > :36:03.Conservative Government. I don't think they raise any questions about
:36:04. > :36:06.Corbyn's leadership because the people who put him in don't think
:36:07. > :36:12.that winning elections matter, you have to remember this will be the
:36:13. > :36:16.mainstream media, it will be our fault why any of those Labour
:36:17. > :36:20.candidates don't win, the thing that is interesting is whether there is
:36:21. > :36:24.is a role for Ukip. The argument after the referendum was Ukip has
:36:25. > :36:29.done its job, it got the referendum, nothing to see here, I remember
:36:30. > :36:36.speaking to put a Nuttall before he was Ukip leader, on the day after
:36:37. > :36:40.the battle and he said this is Year Zero, where Ukip starts now, and
:36:41. > :36:43.this, and this is the interesting thing, does, do we see this one
:36:44. > :36:48.particular party having a role in the future? And I think it is all to
:36:49. > :36:53.play for, they could not not have stood in this seat. They have to win
:36:54. > :36:56.it to be an electoral force. The Labour candidate in Copeland has
:36:57. > :37:00.made the NHS the issue for her in this, that goes into the left-right,
:37:01. > :37:06.are we spending enough, are we not? That will be a test of what you were
:37:07. > :37:09.saying to see if traditional left-right issue, which at the
:37:10. > :37:13.moment would play Labour's way I would suggest, are big enough to
:37:14. > :37:17.overcome all the things you have been talking about and Matthew has
:37:18. > :37:21.been talking about. Maybe at this particular junction they are not,
:37:22. > :37:27.but I don't think any of those issues will go away, and that is why
:37:28. > :37:33.I question whether we are see the end of a historic left-right divide.
:37:34. > :37:36.At the moment with Europe so prominent, clearly these
:37:37. > :37:39.by-elections are unusual. And they will be a test of leadership for
:37:40. > :37:43.Theresa May in the coming months if not at the moment, as they have been
:37:44. > :37:48.in a way that he hasn't risen to, for the Labour leader.
:37:49. > :37:52.We will be leave on BBC One on the night, February 23rd off back of
:37:53. > :37:54.this week, we will bring you the result of both these crucial
:37:55. > :37:58.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:59. > :38:01.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:02. > :38:04.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:38:05. > :38:14.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:38:15. > :38:16.I'm Julia George and this is the Sunday Politics
:38:17. > :38:23.It's a growing problem and it's costing the state billions.
:38:24. > :38:25.We visit a new scheme in Sussex where GPs prescribe not pills,
:38:26. > :38:30.but activities to help people feel well again.
:38:31. > :38:34.With me in the studio today are Henry Smith,
:38:35. > :38:36.Conservative MP for Crawley and Paul Richards, a Labour
:38:37. > :38:40.activist and commentator - he's from Eastbourne.
:38:41. > :38:45.Except this week it's become a hotbed of political intrigue.
:38:46. > :38:47.A massive 15% in council tax is ditched, text messages
:38:48. > :38:49.which according to the Labour leader suggest a sweetheart deal
:38:50. > :38:51.from the government are sent to the wrong Nick...
:38:52. > :38:54.And still a question mark over whether there's enough money to look
:38:55. > :38:56.after vulnerable old people in the county.
:38:57. > :38:59.Joining us from Southampton is another Conservative Council
:39:00. > :39:21.Thank you for being with us. Ultimately it is a story about
:39:22. > :39:24.vulnerable older people. But looking for a moment at the political
:39:25. > :39:28.machinations, David Hodge, when it comes to getting what he wants from
:39:29. > :39:33.the DC LG he is rather leaving you standing, isn't it? I will not
:39:34. > :39:39.comment on what has happened in Surrey. I am comfortable about what
:39:40. > :39:41.we are doing in West Sussex. We are campaigning about more funding for
:39:42. > :39:47.adult social care. The pressures the county councils are under, and
:39:48. > :39:51.actually Paul Carter as chairman of the county council network is doing
:39:52. > :39:56.a great job in leading the campaign and we support him. You might not
:39:57. > :39:59.want to comment on sorry but talking about campaigning for better
:40:00. > :40:05.funding, they achieved that in Surrey. Maybe you need to change
:40:06. > :40:09.your lobbying technique? We are working hard to deliver services
:40:10. > :40:14.while putting a small increase on the council tax and we are focusing
:40:15. > :40:19.on our area. You have done some lobbying of your own, to which I
:40:20. > :40:22.have preferred. You rich to the secretary of state for local
:40:23. > :40:28.government about adult social care, specifically. -- have written. What
:40:29. > :40:34.did you say? We had a debate in December across the board with all
:40:35. > :40:37.parties aborting the pact that we had a really growing pressure in
:40:38. > :40:41.adult social care, people are getting older, that is great, but
:40:42. > :40:48.the pressures are really getting difficult for us. We wrote to Sajid
:40:49. > :40:52.Javid about us, we made the point, he came back and said there is a
:40:53. > :40:56.group looking at it but we are going to press on this and come back,
:40:57. > :41:02.because we think it is urgent there is a cross-party view about adult
:41:03. > :41:08.social care for all providers and adult social care. We do not have
:41:09. > :41:12.enough money. They say 2020, it is going to be a shortfall of 2.6
:41:13. > :41:18.billion. According to the Kings fund the moment we are 1.9 billion short.
:41:19. > :41:22.We have to be aware people are receiving care. We are doing our
:41:23. > :41:25.looking after the elderly and looking after the elderly and
:41:26. > :41:30.vulnerable people. We will continue to do that but to do the best we
:41:31. > :41:31.need the extra funding. You talk about the sleepless nights you have
:41:32. > :41:35.is a council leader. What is the is a council leader. What is the
:41:36. > :41:38.worst-case scenario keeping you awake? The point where you would
:41:39. > :41:44.have insufficient to deliver core services? We have worked very hard
:41:45. > :41:50.on finances since I became leader. We drove through four year savings
:41:51. > :41:54.in three years. That has put the council in good shape. We will
:41:55. > :41:58.continue to redesign services and redeliver them to meet the financial
:41:59. > :42:02.envelope. But there are some demands, like social care, which
:42:03. > :42:07.really on a national basis, this is not just one two areas, on a
:42:08. > :42:12.national basis, they need a proper review and funding and that is what
:42:13. > :42:15.we ask for. The fact you are going to go back and press Sajid Javid,
:42:16. > :42:19.you are currently not satisfied with the Government's offered to you and
:42:20. > :42:26.care funding? We will continue to care funding? We will continue to
:42:27. > :42:31.make the case. We are supporting the county council network, led by Paul
:42:32. > :42:32.Carter. We will continue to do that until we get some news about
:42:33. > :42:37.finances we desperately need. Since finances we desperately need. Since
:42:38. > :42:42.it emerged Surrey County Council will take part in a pilot which will
:42:43. > :42:45.see it keep 100% of business rates, something we understand will be
:42:46. > :42:51.available to all councils in June of course, are you going to try and be
:42:52. > :42:55.accepted on that same pilot? We will look at what the Government is
:42:56. > :43:00.offering and see if it is right for us and our residents. We know these
:43:01. > :43:04.pilots are being rolled out in 2018 and we will review the detail we
:43:05. > :43:08.have got in front of us. At the moment you have not asked to be on
:43:09. > :43:13.one of those pilots. At the moment we do not have the full detail and
:43:14. > :43:16.that is different. We will go to Henry Smith for the moment. Louise
:43:17. > :43:20.difficult and we had to go back and difficult and we had to go back and
:43:21. > :43:24.press the Department for more help on this. What is your response to
:43:25. > :43:29.the fact that Tory lead councils do not feel they have enough money to
:43:30. > :43:34.continue into the future to properly fund social care? As her predecessor
:43:35. > :43:39.as leader of West Sussex there is nothing new about this. I remember
:43:40. > :43:46.when I was in her position as going to central government, then a Labour
:43:47. > :43:52.government, and asking for funding, often Sussex was not successful with
:43:53. > :43:55.is ridiculous to say there is is ridiculous to say there is
:43:56. > :43:58.nothing new. There have been significant cuts in local authority
:43:59. > :44:03.funding and the older population is getting bigger year-on-year. Louise
:44:04. > :44:07.Goldsmith has been the leader for seven years. There is a difference
:44:08. > :44:11.from when you were in council. I'm saying other councils and local
:44:12. > :44:14.authorities put a bid central government and my point is Surrey
:44:15. > :44:18.has not had any different treatment compared to any other county across
:44:19. > :44:23.the country. Yes we do have significant pressures particularly
:44:24. > :44:28.on adult social care. I would like to see a greater focus on that. The
:44:29. > :44:32.government has committed an extra 10 billion to the NHS between now and
:44:33. > :44:35.2020. I would like some more commitment on adult social care
:44:36. > :44:40.because the two are inextricably linked, of course. Simon Blackburn
:44:41. > :44:43.is a Labour council leader in Blackpool and is he right when he
:44:44. > :44:47.said everybody apart minister recognises the current funding
:44:48. > :44:51.system for adult social care is broken? I think the Prime Minister
:44:52. > :44:59.has been clear that we need greater focus... What does that mean? It
:45:00. > :45:05.means greater attention. Does it mean more money? I think it will
:45:06. > :45:08.when we have the budget coming out in March. It will result in more
:45:09. > :45:14.funding for adult social care while as a country living within our means
:45:15. > :45:20.and seeking to balance the budget. Clearly this is an area impacting on
:45:21. > :45:23.the NHS. It is a challenge for many counties and other local authorities
:45:24. > :45:26.around the country. It does need to be addressed. But I would just point
:45:27. > :45:30.out that it is a Conservative out that it is a Conservative
:45:31. > :45:35.government that has pledged and is delivering on an extra 10 billion
:45:36. > :45:41.for the NHS. Some think the Labour Party have not... The two are
:45:42. > :45:44.linked. I understand that but we are focusing on the local authorities in
:45:45. > :45:49.the region. Used to be a special adviser. Does special pleading on
:45:50. > :45:55.the heart of individual authorities work? It was seen that Surrey has
:45:56. > :46:00.had a sweetheart deal. We would not know about it if it was not for
:46:01. > :46:03.those leaked e-mails. What appears to go at them is they have been
:46:04. > :46:08.allowed to do something no authority has been allowed to do. Hold on a
:46:09. > :46:13.second, other local authorities are being allowed to participate in the
:46:14. > :46:16.pilots. Not quite with the speed announced following the release of
:46:17. > :46:20.the e-mails. And behind the scenes it would seem special pleading has
:46:21. > :46:24.worked. Maybe it is a coincidence three Cabinet ministers have seats
:46:25. > :46:27.in the county council. It stinks in the county council. It stinks
:46:28. > :46:31.because we would not normally have known about it but for the leaked
:46:32. > :46:36.e-mails at prime ministers questions. What do you think the
:46:37. > :46:41.Labour Party should offer as a position? Because on this and other
:46:42. > :46:45.subjects which are going to come up today, and Louise Goldsmith
:46:46. > :46:47.mentioned it, do we not need cross-party national government
:46:48. > :46:52.agreement on some sort of plan for adult social care? I would welcome a
:46:53. > :46:55.cross-party agreement on social care. It has to be one of the
:46:56. > :46:59.biggest questions facing us in the next ten, 20 years. When Andy
:47:00. > :47:03.Burnham had his idea at the last general election the Tories put up
:47:04. > :47:08.posters saying it was a death tax and scared the public after death on
:47:09. > :47:12.any kind of change. We have not got the money we could have had if that
:47:13. > :47:17.went through. Let's not make it a political football but something
:47:18. > :47:20.with consensus. Henry Smith seems optimistic that, marked the
:47:21. > :47:26.Government may find more money for adult social care. Have you any
:47:27. > :47:31.sense of the same optimism? Obviously Henry is much closer to
:47:32. > :47:35.Westminster than I am. That is his instinct, we are very hopeful of
:47:36. > :47:39.that. We are working with our MPs in West Sussex, including Henry, on
:47:40. > :47:43.this issue to raise that in Parliament. I think everybody is
:47:44. > :47:48.aware of what is happening and I would like to stress it is not just
:47:49. > :47:51.about money. Of course we need more money. But it is to deliver things
:47:52. > :47:57.like a preventative agenda. You talking about quite a long run in.
:47:58. > :47:59.We will need that money to cover that while we move forward. And
:48:00. > :48:02.working with partners. We are working with partners. We are
:48:03. > :48:09.already doing that. Some areas are doing it very successfully. It does
:48:10. > :48:12.not happen overnight. We will move onto an area closely connected to
:48:13. > :48:15.that, but thank you very indeed, Louise Goldsmith, leader of West
:48:16. > :48:19.Sussex County Council. It's an epidemic that
:48:20. > :48:21.affects people of all ages We have a simple human need to make
:48:22. > :48:25.connections with others, and when we can't, we pay
:48:26. > :48:27.a heavy price. Last month colleagues and family
:48:28. > :48:30.members of the murdered Labour MP Jo Cox launched a commission to look
:48:31. > :48:33.at what can be done. Meanwhile in Crawley,
:48:34. > :48:35.local GPs and charities have teamed up with the council to tackle
:48:36. > :48:47.the issue - Bhavani Vadde For Anna, trying her hand at bowls
:48:48. > :48:54.at the leisure centre was a big step. She suffered from depression,
:48:55. > :49:00.then had a stroke, all while caring for her husband, who has dementia.
:49:01. > :49:03.She felt alone and isolated. Thanks to an innovative project called
:49:04. > :49:07.social prescribing, she is now optimistic about the future. Under
:49:08. > :49:12.the scheme GPs refer patients who need something other than medical
:49:13. > :49:17.attention to the voluntary sector. I was crying a lot for a whole month.
:49:18. > :49:24.I could not go out of my front door, front garden, or anything. I needed
:49:25. > :49:32.help, counselling, people talking with me and helping me through a
:49:33. > :49:38.very, very dark time in my life. The project helped me get back. And I
:49:39. > :49:41.and stronger, being out and about in and stronger, being out and about in
:49:42. > :49:47.the community again. Anna was put in touch with Tracy from the Crawley
:49:48. > :49:50.community voluntary service, who can link patients with a range of
:49:51. > :49:55.activities, from counselling to joining social groups like this one.
:49:56. > :50:00.For a lot of these people they go back to their GP regularly. Because
:50:01. > :50:03.there is something underlying. The GPs just do not have the time to sit
:50:04. > :50:09.and talk to people for a long period of time and I can dedicate that time
:50:10. > :50:12.to them. Anna is having fun at indoor bowls today but more
:50:13. > :50:17.importantly she says taking part in this social prescribing project has
:50:18. > :50:21.changed her life. But are lonely and isolated people really a matter of
:50:22. > :50:25.concern for cash strapped local authorities and government?
:50:26. > :50:30.Charities working on this issue says there is strong evidence to show
:50:31. > :50:33.loneliness can be a trigger for referral to adult social care, or
:50:34. > :50:38.increased visits to GPs and hospitals. It is estimated 20% of
:50:39. > :50:44.patients consult their doctor for what is primarily a social problem.
:50:45. > :50:48.Older people are more prone to being lonely and in the south-east around
:50:49. > :50:55.18% of the population are aged 65 or above. Half a million of them live
:50:56. > :50:59.alone. This doctor is a GP at one of these surgeries taking part in this
:51:00. > :51:08.pilot. He is also the clinical chief officer at Crawley CCG, which plans
:51:09. > :51:12.services for the local area. We are in uncharted territory. We know the
:51:13. > :51:19.NHS and social care is under a lot of stress. Medicine and wellness is
:51:20. > :51:23.more than tablets. What doctors and nurses do. It is about the community
:51:24. > :51:27.and what we have in the community and what we can do for the patient,
:51:28. > :51:32.as well. We have two commits the will of the Government into action
:51:33. > :51:36.and funding. -- to commit. We will do what we have to do locally to
:51:37. > :51:41.create the environment and the evidence and momentum. It is a
:51:42. > :51:44.social movement. The men in charge of the Crawley Project believes it
:51:45. > :51:49.is the first scheme of its time in the south-east. With the NHS, the
:51:50. > :51:53.local authority and groups joining up to tackle loneliness and
:51:54. > :51:57.isolation. But the pilot only has funding for one year. It will save
:51:58. > :52:02.the lives of a lot of old people we work with. The really good thing is
:52:03. > :52:06.it makes a world of difference to the patient. It means the doctor is
:52:07. > :52:09.freeing up points to see other people and it is the same accident
:52:10. > :52:13.and emergency. You are saving money. It is going to get worse and worse.
:52:14. > :52:18.Everybody knows generally across the country society is now ageing.
:52:19. > :52:27.Particularly in Crawley it is ageing rapidly. With a little help, Anna
:52:28. > :52:31.has regained her zest for life. But can others across the south-east to
:52:32. > :52:34.have also suffered from loneliness the top of the same practical help
:52:35. > :52:37.against a backdrop of financial constraints, from councils and the
:52:38. > :52:47.NHS? We are joined by Dr Kellie Payne.
:52:48. > :52:51.They are working with the Jo Cox foundation on this issue. Thank you
:52:52. > :52:59.for your time. Let's look at this Crawley Project. The bigger picture,
:53:00. > :53:02.Hal Common are like this? We have come across a number of social
:53:03. > :53:08.prescribing projects. It is one of the newest models, ways of
:53:09. > :53:11.addressing loneliness. We think it has a lot of potential and we are
:53:12. > :53:16.very interested in seeing how these projects get along. I think one of
:53:17. > :53:21.the things we have identified in one of our recent reports is that it is
:53:22. > :53:25.very difficult to find lonely people in the community. Finding these
:53:26. > :53:29.people like the GPs who actually come across lonely people and doing
:53:30. > :53:35.able to refer them to services, that is really important, an important
:53:36. > :53:43.role. As you know there is great evidence linking loneliness to many
:53:44. > :53:47.chronic health effects, including heart disease and strokes. If you
:53:48. > :53:53.can prevent some of these more serious conditions as well, you will
:53:54. > :53:56.be saving the NHS a lot of money. I can understand why the GPs are
:53:57. > :54:02.important. Of course some people do not go to their GP and you have two
:54:03. > :54:07.find them as well. That is how the NHS can feed into this. What about
:54:08. > :54:11.the Government? What do you think their responsibility is when it
:54:12. > :54:15.comes to loneliness? We have had a campaign over the last five years
:54:16. > :54:20.focusing quite a lot of effort on educating local government and local
:54:21. > :54:25.authorities on the ways they can tackle loneliness. From the campaign
:54:26. > :54:30.perspective we would really like a national strategy on loneliness. In
:54:31. > :54:33.Scotland that is something they are initiating now and we are working
:54:34. > :54:38.closely with some of our partners like the ending networks in Scotland
:54:39. > :54:44.to feed into that new strategy. -- befriending network. They have an
:54:45. > :54:49.older person commissioner in Wales who has taken this forward, as well.
:54:50. > :54:54.It is something the devolved governments are a bit more ahead of
:54:55. > :55:00.than the English government. Dr Kellie Payne, thank you for joining
:55:01. > :55:04.us. Henry Smith, this Crawley Project is in your constituency. Are
:55:05. > :55:09.you proud of it? Extremely. Yet again Crawley is in the vanguard of
:55:10. > :55:12.finding new ways to tackle particularly issues facing an
:55:13. > :55:19.elderly population. Crawley is a so-called new but it does mean
:55:20. > :55:22.actually it is getting older and the population is ageing and we have
:55:23. > :55:28.more elderly people, there is more loneliness. It is a short pilot only
:55:29. > :55:31.running until June this year. If you believe in it you must hope it is
:55:32. > :55:37.not a nice little intervention disappearing without trace. I think
:55:38. > :55:40.the record in Crawley is that these pilots become permanent. I pay
:55:41. > :55:45.tribute to the doctor who does an excellent job... He is calling upon
:55:46. > :55:51.you. He said we need two commits the Government to more funding. He is
:55:52. > :55:53.calling on me and I am always happy to respond. Crawley years ago was
:55:54. > :55:59.designated as a dementia friendly town. That was not only a label.
:56:00. > :56:03.That is something which again means Crawley is in the lead in this
:56:04. > :56:08.issue. I think we can be in the lead in terms of tackling loneliness as
:56:09. > :56:12.well. Is born, with the best will in the world, an old time with many
:56:13. > :56:17.people in the older population feel, would you welcome projects like this
:56:18. > :56:21.in Eastbourne? One of the things the Jo Cox and Asian is looking at is
:56:22. > :56:27.that it does not just affect older people, loneliness. -- foundation.
:56:28. > :56:32.Parents can feel lonely. People surrounded by people all day long
:56:33. > :56:34.can feel lonely. It impacts on depression and other ailments like
:56:35. > :56:38.the school health as we have heard. We need to look more creatively
:56:39. > :56:45.rather than thinking of it as an old person problem. People are looking
:56:46. > :56:49.at if it tackles a wider range of age groups or not. Henry, we have
:56:50. > :56:54.heard there are similar projects nationwide, but it does not add up
:56:55. > :56:58.to a national strategy. Dr Kellie Payne said Scotland and Wales have
:56:59. > :57:03.stolen a march upon us. Does England need to do better and have a
:57:04. > :57:06.we share best practice. Where we share best practice. Where
:57:07. > :57:11.schemes are working well in whatever part of the UK, whatever part of the
:57:12. > :57:16.those examples in a practical way. those examples in a practical way.
:57:17. > :57:21.And in a way a lot of this does not have to be terribly much of the
:57:22. > :57:25.financial burden. There are a lot of ways we can socially prescribed
:57:26. > :57:30.activities. It is great to see the bowling rink at the leisure centre,
:57:31. > :57:34.I have been on there myself. Those kinds of activities actually have a
:57:35. > :57:40.big impact. For not that much investment. And ultimately that is
:57:41. > :57:45.absolutely right that by getting people active and engaged, it saves
:57:46. > :57:51.on medical conditions which might come about. It begs the question,
:57:52. > :57:55.going back to your point, Paul, it affects all kinds of age groups. Why
:57:56. > :58:02.in such a developed society are so many people so lonely? It is ironic
:58:03. > :58:04.where technology can connect us with people all over the world but we do
:58:05. > :58:08.not know who our next-door neighbours are. I think there is a
:58:09. > :58:12.retreat from public space into private and we do not talk to people
:58:13. > :58:15.in the same way we do. The Jo Cox commission idea was we should all go
:58:16. > :58:20.out and talk to somebody we do not know. Maybe a next-door neighbour we
:58:21. > :58:24.have never spoken to and reconnect at a human level, beyond Facebook
:58:25. > :58:26.and Twitter. Maybe it is not down to politics.
:58:27. > :58:29.And now it's time for some of the other news you may have
:58:30. > :58:37.missed in Sixty Seconds with Yetunde Yusuf.
:58:38. > :58:42.Church leaders and MPs have condemned the decision to end a
:58:43. > :58:46.scheme letting unaccompanied migrant children into the country. Ministers
:58:47. > :58:49.accepted the amendment last year after months of pressure from
:58:50. > :58:55.campaign groups to take in and 18 people. From the migrant in Calais.
:58:56. > :58:59.330 children will have arrived under the screen -- scheme by the end
:59:00. > :59:03.about. It had revealed plans to tackle the British housing crisis,
:59:04. > :59:06.including a white paper in encouraging developers to build more
:59:07. > :59:09.quickly and a commitment to safeguard the green belt. Figures
:59:10. > :59:13.from the town and country planning Association reveal the south-east
:59:14. > :59:19.needs to build more than 50,000 houses by 2020 to meet demand. New
:59:20. > :59:21.rubbish bins to stop seagulls congregating and dive-bombing
:59:22. > :59:25.passers-by have been installed in Brighton and Hove. The council is
:59:26. > :59:29.introducing 100 smart rubbish bins costing around half ?1 million.
:59:30. > :59:34.Specially designed containers stop seagulls committing food waste. It
:59:35. > :59:36.is really horrible, but I suppose if it stops seagulls going in, it is a
:59:37. > :59:47.good thing. I would like to pick up, Paul
:59:48. > :59:49.Richards, on the Government housing White Paper. You are known to think
:59:50. > :59:55.it is not radical enough. What is your radical idea? You wait for
:59:56. > :00:00.something for ages and it turns up and it is a bit disappointing, you
:00:01. > :00:03.know? That is this white Paper. Why it was delayed for so little I do
:00:04. > :00:10.not know. You heard the scale of the challenge, 50,000... What is your
:00:11. > :00:14.idea? We should look at the green belt, shrub land not counting as
:00:15. > :00:21.lovely areas, can you build on those? You want to build on the
:00:22. > :00:24.green belt? You can look at other areas where people want to live and
:00:25. > :00:29.let local authorities borrow more so they can build and have more council
:00:30. > :00:33.houses. There are innovative funding mechanisms you can use to free up
:00:34. > :00:37.land owned by the MoD, the NHS, other local agencies and so on. This
:00:38. > :00:41.White Paper did not address any of that. It is a damp squib. We
:00:42. > :00:44.promised we would look in the White promised we would look in the White
:00:45. > :00:46.Paper in more detail in the weeks to come. For now, thank you for being
:00:47. > :00:49.our guest this week. That's all we've got
:00:50. > :00:51.time for this week. We're off air next week -
:00:52. > :00:54.but I'll be back the week after with all the news and politics
:00:55. > :01:00.in the South East. Our guests, Henry Smith,
:01:01. > :01:02.Conservative MP for Crawley and Paul Richards, a labour activist from
:01:03. > :01:04.Eastbourne, we will see you and Eastbourne, we will see you and
:01:05. > :01:05.thank you for watching. After the excitement and late nights
:01:06. > :01:16.in the Commons last week, MPs are having a little break this
:01:17. > :01:19.week as we head into But there's still plenty
:01:20. > :01:23.in the diary in the near future - let's just remind ourselves of some
:01:24. > :01:37.key upcoming dates. There they are. We have the two
:01:38. > :01:41.by-elections on February 23rd. The budget is 8th March. That will be
:01:42. > :01:43.the last spring budget under this Government because it moves to the
:01:44. > :02:02.autumn. That round of French elections
:02:03. > :02:07.narrows the candidates, probably about eight or nine, down to two,
:02:08. > :02:13.the two who come first and second, then go into a play off round on May
:02:14. > :02:19.7th. That will determine the next President. Steve, listening to
:02:20. > :02:23.Oliver Letwin and to the Labour leader in the House of Lords, is
:02:24. > :02:28.there any way you think that end of March deadline for Mrs May could be
:02:29. > :02:32.in jeopardy? No, I don't. Andrew Smith couldn't have been clearer
:02:33. > :02:36.with you they would do nothing to block not just Article 50 but that
:02:37. > :02:41.timetable, so I would be surprised if they don't make it. Given her,
:02:42. > :02:47.Theresa May's explicit determination to do so, not to do so would have
:02:48. > :02:52.become a problem for her, I think one way or another... No before this
:02:53. > :02:56.vote last week there was a vote nor the deadline, to agree the deadline
:02:57. > :03:00.by all sides. Plain sailing do you think? There is no serious
:03:01. > :03:03.Parliamentary resistance and it would be a personal embarrassment, I
:03:04. > :03:08.think for the Prime Minister to name the the end of March as the deadline
:03:09. > :03:12.and to miss it, unless she has a good excuse. I I reckon it will
:03:13. > :03:17.change the atmosphere of politics for the next two years, as soon as
:03:18. > :03:21.the negotiations begin, people in our profession will hunt for any
:03:22. > :03:24.detail and inside information we can find, thing also be leaked, I think
:03:25. > :03:29.from the European side from time to time, it will dominate the headlines
:03:30. > :03:34.for a solid two years and change politics. Let me just raise a
:03:35. > :03:39.possible, a dark cloud. No bigger than man's hand, that can complicate
:03:40. > :03:43.the timetable, because the Royal Assent on the current timetable has
:03:44. > :03:48.to come round the 13th. I would suggest that the Prime Minister
:03:49. > :03:54.can't trigger that until she does get the Royal Assent. If there is a
:03:55. > :03:58.bit of ping-pong that could delay that by receive day, the last thing
:03:59. > :04:04.the Europeans would want, they have another big meeting at the end of
:04:05. > :04:08.March which is the 60th anniversary of the Treaty of Rome. They don't
:04:09. > :04:15.want Article 50 to land on the table... It would infuriate
:04:16. > :04:19.everybody. My guess is she will have done it by then, this is between the
:04:20. > :04:23.Commons and the Lords, I mean Andrew Smith couldn't have been clearer,
:04:24. > :04:31.that they might send something back but they didn't expect a kind of a
:04:32. > :04:35.long play over this, so. The Liberal Democrats, they are almost an
:04:36. > :04:41.irrelevance in the Commons but not the Lords, they feel differently.
:04:42. > :04:45.Now, we don't know yet what the European Union negotiating position
:04:46. > :04:47.is going to be, we don't know because there are several crucial
:04:48. > :04:51.elections taking place, the Dutch taking place in March and then the
:04:52. > :04:57.one we put up, the French, and, at the moment, the French one is, it
:04:58. > :05:03.seems like it is coming down, to a play-off in the second round between
:05:04. > :05:09.Madame Le Pen who could come first in the first round and this Blairite
:05:10. > :05:14.figure, independent, centre-leftish Mr Macron, he may well get through
:05:15. > :05:20.and that, and the outcome of that will be an important determine napt
:05:21. > :05:24.on our negotiations. -- determinant. You o couldn't have two more
:05:25. > :05:28.different candidate, you have a national a front candidate and on
:05:29. > :05:36.the other hand the closest thing France could have you to a liberal
:05:37. > :05:40.President. With a small l. A reformist liberal President. It
:05:41. > :05:47.would be the most French thing in the world to elect someone who while
:05:48. > :05:53.the rest of the world is elected elitist, to elect someone who is the
:05:54. > :06:00.son of a teacher, who has liberal views, is a member of the French
:06:01. > :06:08.elite. It would be a thing for them to elect a man like that which I why
:06:09. > :06:13.I see them doing it. If it is Le Pen, Brexit becomes a minor
:06:14. > :06:17.sideshow, if it is Le Pen, the future of the European Union is?
:06:18. > :06:24.Danger, regardless of whether we are were in or out. I suggest if it is
:06:25. > :06:28.Mr Macron that presents some problems. He doesn't have his own
:06:29. > :06:32.party. He won't have a majority in the French assembly, he is untried
:06:33. > :06:37.and untested. He wants to do a number of things that will be
:06:38. > :06:44.unpopular which is why a number of people close to Mrs Le Pen tell me
:06:45. > :06:53.that she has her eye on 2022. She thinks lit go to hell in a hand
:06:54. > :06:58.basket under Mr Macron. He hasn't got the experience. What I find
:06:59. > :07:02.fascinating. It is not just all to play for in France, it is the fact
:07:03. > :07:07.what happens in France and Germany, not so much Holland I think but
:07:08. > :07:16.Germany later on in the year, how much it impacts what we are going to
:07:17. > :07:25.get. How much which ex #i78 panting on them. And at the time we are
:07:26. > :07:28.trying to, withdrawing ourself from European politics it is fascinating
:07:29. > :07:33.how much it will affect us. You see what Matthew was talking about
:07:34. > :07:37.earlier in the show, that what we do know, almost for sure, is that the
:07:38. > :07:41.socialist candidate will not get through to the second round. He
:07:42. > :07:45.could come firth but the centre-right candidate. If we were
:07:46. > :07:49.discussing that monthing a we would say it between teen the centre-right
:07:50. > :07:55.and the national fronts. We are to saying that. Matthew good win who
:07:56. > :08:00.spent a time in France isn't sure Le Pen will get into the second round,
:08:01. > :08:08.which is interesting. It is, I mean, it is going to be as important for
:08:09. > :08:10.the future of the European Union, as in retrospect the British 2015
:08:11. > :08:14.general election was, if Labour had got in there would have been no
:08:15. > :08:19.referendum. That referendum has transformed the European Union
:08:20. > :08:24.because we are leaving and the French election is significant. We
:08:25. > :08:30.will be live from Paris on April 23rd on the day France goings to the
:08:31. > :08:33.first round of polls. Tom Watson, he was on The Andrew Marr Show earlier
:08:34. > :08:38.today, was asked about Mr Corbyn, this is what he had to say.
:08:39. > :08:42.We had a damaging second leadership election, so we've got
:08:43. > :08:46.The polls aren't great for us, but I'm determined now we've got
:08:47. > :08:48.the leadership settled for this parliament, that we can focus
:08:49. > :08:51.on developing a very positive clear message to the British people
:08:52. > :09:07.So Julia, I don't know who are you are giggling. I find it untenable
:09:08. > :09:12.that, he is a very good media performer and he comes on and he is
:09:13. > :09:15.sitting there so well, you know, things are bad but don't worry we
:09:16. > :09:20.are looking at what we can do to win 2020. The idea that Tony Blair and
:09:21. > :09:25.Gordon Brown were sitting in their offices or on TV screens at this
:09:26. > :09:29.time in the electoral cycle thinking well I wonder if we can come up with
:09:30. > :09:36.a policy the British people might like. It is a nonsense, this is
:09:37. > :09:44.Tuesday night book zlufb. I am going to ask you the question I was going
:09:45. > :09:50.to before. I would suggest that he the right. The deputy Labour leader
:09:51. > :09:55.Tom Watson is violent the leadership is settled, with one caveat, unless
:09:56. > :10:01.the Corbynistas themselves to decide to move on Mr Corbyn, if the left of
:10:02. > :10:06.the Labour Party decides then it is not settled. Settled. If that
:10:07. > :10:10.doesn't happen that is That would be the worst situation if you are a
:10:11. > :10:16.Labour moderate. The Corbynistas would be saying the problem is no
:10:17. > :10:21.Corbynism, it is Corbyn himself, if we a younger person leading the
:10:22. > :10:25.process we can win the next general election, which means you have
:10:26. > :10:32.another itration of this, another five year experiment. And that is
:10:33. > :10:38.worst of all. If you are a Labour moderate, what you want is Jeremy
:10:39. > :10:42.Corbyn contest the next general election, possibly loses badly and
:10:43. > :10:47.then a Labour not moderate runs for the leadership saying we have tried
:10:48. > :10:51.your way, the worst would be Corbyn going, and a younger seven version
:10:52. > :10:57.of him trying and the experiment being extended. I see no easy way
:10:58. > :11:02.out of this. That is why he radiated the enthusiasm of someone in a
:11:03. > :11:07.hostage video in that interview. Maybe he has the Stockholm Syndrome
:11:08. > :11:11.now. The Labour moderates have had their day in the sun, two days in
:11:12. > :11:16.the sun and they lost. I suggest they are not going to try for the
:11:17. > :11:23.hat-trick again. Is there any indication that on the more Corbyn
:11:24. > :11:28.wing of the Labour Party, there is now doubts about their man. Yes,
:11:29. > :11:33.just to translate Tom Watson, what he meant was I Tom Watson am not
:11:34. > :11:38.going to get involved in another attempted coup. I tried it and it
:11:39. > :11:44.was a catastrophe. That is question enhe says it is set selled. It is
:11:45. > :11:50.because there is speculation on a daily basis. I disagree, Julia said
:11:51. > :11:55.I think this lot don't care about winning, I think they do. If the
:11:56. > :12:00.current position continue, one of two things will happen. Either
:12:01. > :12:05.Jeremy Corbyn will decide himself will decide he doesn't want to carry
:12:06. > :12:10.on. He half enjoys I it and half hates it. Finds it a strain. If that
:12:11. > :12:17.doesn't happen there will be some people round him who will say, look,
:12:18. > :12:22.this isn't working. There is another three-and-a-half years. There is a
:12:23. > :12:27.long way to go. I can't see it lasting in this way with politics in
:12:28. > :12:32.a state of flux, Tories will be under pressure in the coming two
:12:33. > :12:36.years, to have opinion polls at this level, I think is unsustainable.
:12:37. > :12:40.Final thought from you.? Yes, the idea it St another three-and-a-half
:12:41. > :12:45.years is just madness, but the people we are putting up at
:12:46. > :12:50.replacement for Jeremy Corbyn, and they have been focus grouping them.
:12:51. > :12:53.Most members wouldn't know who most of people were let alone most of the
:12:54. > :13:01.public. Angela rain? They are not
:13:02. > :13:07.overwhelmed with leadership potential at the moment. Very
:13:08. > :13:09.diplomatically put. Neither are the Tories, but they happened to have
:13:10. > :13:13.one at the moment. All right. That is it.
:13:14. > :13:15.Now, there's no Daily or Sunday Politics for the next week
:13:16. > :13:20.But the Daily Politics will be back on Monday 20th February and I'll be
:13:21. > :13:24.back here with the Sunday Politics on the 26th.
:13:25. > :13:26.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics...
:13:27. > :14:08.Just back from a very long shift at work...
:14:09. > :14:14.The staff are losing - they're just giving in.
:14:15. > :14:19.Panorama goes undercover to reveal the real cost