:00:42. > :00:47.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:48. > :00:47.Theresa May still has plenty on her plate,
:00:48. > :00:50.not least a battle over Brexit in the Lords.
:00:51. > :00:51.But after Thursday's by-election win in Copeland,
:00:52. > :00:53.the Prime Minister looks stronger than ever.
:00:54. > :00:56.Jeremy Corbyn's Labour saw off Ukip in this week's other by-election,
:00:57. > :00:58.but losing to the Tories in a heartland seat leaves the party
:00:59. > :01:08.The leader of Scottish Labour joins me live.
:01:09. > :01:14.You look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden!
:01:15. > :01:23.of migration on Sweden, mocked for talking about the impact
:01:24. > :01:28.This region is the gateway for human traffickers. The government has
:01:29. > :01:29.promised to take action but is enough being done?
:01:30. > :01:32.tax in all but four local authorities be enough to alleviate
:01:33. > :01:38.the crisis in social care? And joining me for all of that,
:01:39. > :01:41.three journalists who I'm pleased to say have so far not been banned
:01:42. > :01:49.from the White House. I've tried banning them
:01:50. > :01:53.from this show repeatedly, but somehow they just keep getting
:01:54. > :02:05.past BBC security - it's Sam Coates, We have had two crucial
:02:06. > :02:09.by-elections, the results last Thursday night. It's now Sunday
:02:10. > :02:13.morning, where do they believe British politics? I think it leaves
:02:14. > :02:17.British politics looking as if it may go ahead without Ukip is a
:02:18. > :02:22.strong and robust force. It is difficult to see from where we are
:02:23. > :02:28.now how Ukip rebuilds into a credible vote winning operation. I
:02:29. > :02:32.think it looks unprofessional, the campaign they fought in Stoke was
:02:33. > :02:36.clearly winnable because the margin with which Labour held onto that
:02:37. > :02:40.seat was not an impressive one but they put forward arguably the wrong
:02:41. > :02:44.candidate, it was messy and it's hard to see where they go from here,
:02:45. > :02:50.particularly with the money problems they have and even Nigel Farage
:02:51. > :02:56.saying he's fed up of the party. If Isabel is right, if Ukip is no
:02:57. > :03:01.longer a major factor, you look at the state of Labour and the Lib Dems
:03:02. > :03:05.coming from a long way behind despite their local government
:03:06. > :03:10.by-election successes, Tories never more dominant. I think Theresa May
:03:11. > :03:16.is in a fascinating situation. She's the most powerful Prime Minister of
:03:17. > :03:20.modern times for now because she faces no confident, formidable
:03:21. > :03:25.opposition. Unlike Margaret Thatcher who in the 1980s, although she won
:03:26. > :03:31.landslides in the end, often looked like she was in trouble. She was
:03:32. > :03:37.inferred quite often in the build-up to the election. David Owen, Roy
:03:38. > :03:42.Jenkins, Shirley Williams. And quite often she was worried. At the moment
:03:43. > :03:47.Theresa May faces no formidable UK opposition. However, she is both
:03:48. > :03:51.strong and fragile because her agenda is Brexit, which I still
:03:52. > :03:55.think many have not got to grips with in terms of how complex and
:03:56. > :04:01.training and difficult it will be for her. Thatcher faced no
:04:02. > :04:06.equivalent to Brexit so she is both strong, formidably strong because of
:04:07. > :04:10.the wider UK political context, and very fragile. It is just when you
:04:11. > :04:15.think you have never been more dominant you are actually at the
:04:16. > :04:20.most dangerous, what can possibly go wrong? I think that the money of her
:04:21. > :04:23.MPs they haven't begun to think through the practicalities of Brexit
:04:24. > :04:28.and she does have a working majority of about 17 in the House of Commons
:04:29. > :04:32.so at any point she could be put under pressure from really
:04:33. > :04:37.opposition these days is done by the two wins inside the Conservative
:04:38. > :04:42.Party, either the 15 Europhiles or the bigger group of about 60
:04:43. > :04:45.Brexiteers who have continued to operate as a united and disciplined
:04:46. > :04:50.force within the Conservative Party to get their agenda on the table.
:04:51. > :04:53.Either of those wings could be disappointed at any point in the
:04:54. > :04:57.next three and a half years and that would put her under pressure. I
:04:58. > :05:04.wouldn't completely rule out Ukip coming back. The reason Ukip lost in
:05:05. > :05:07.Stoke I think it's because at the moment Theresa May is delivering
:05:08. > :05:13.pretty much everything Ukip figures might want to see. We might find the
:05:14. > :05:16.phrase Brexit means Brexit quite anodyne but I think she is
:05:17. > :05:22.convincing people she will press ahead with their agenda and deliver
:05:23. > :05:27.the leave vote that people buy a slim majority voted for. Should that
:05:28. > :05:30.change, should there be talk of transition periods, shut the
:05:31. > :05:34.migration settlement not make people happy, then I think Ukip risks
:05:35. > :05:39.charging back up the centre ground and causing more problems in future.
:05:40. > :05:45.That could be a two year gap in which Ukip would have to survive. As
:05:46. > :05:46.I said, Ukip is on our agenda for today.
:05:47. > :05:48.Thursday was a big night for political obsessives
:05:49. > :05:52.like us, with not one but two significant by-elections,
:05:53. > :06:00.Ellie braved the wind and rain to bring you this report.
:06:01. > :06:05.The clouds had gathered, the winds blew at gale force.
:06:06. > :06:09.Was a change in the air, or just a weather system called Doris?
:06:10. > :06:13.Voters in Stoke-on-Trent were about to find out.
:06:14. > :06:16.It's here, a sports hall on a Thursday night
:06:17. > :06:22.that the country's media reckon is the true eye of the storm.
:06:23. > :06:25.Would Labour suffer a lightning strike to its very heart,
:06:26. > :06:27.or would the Ukip threat proved to be a damp squib?
:06:28. > :06:30.Everybody seems to think the result in Stoke-on-Trent would be close,
:06:31. > :06:34.just as they did 150-odd miles away in Copeland, where the Tories
:06:35. > :06:39.are counting on stealing another Labour heartland seat.
:06:40. > :06:46.Areas of high pressure in both places, and some strange sights.
:06:47. > :06:49.We knew this wasn't a normal by-election, and to prove it
:06:50. > :06:51.there is the rapper, Professor Green.
:06:52. > :06:54.Chart-toppers aside, winner of Stoke-on-Trent hit parade
:06:55. > :06:56.was announced first, where everyone was so excited
:06:57. > :07:00.the candidates didn't even make it onto the stage for the result.
:07:01. > :07:04.And I do hereby declare that the said Gareth Snell
:07:05. > :07:12.Nigel Farage has said that victory here in Stoke-on-Trent
:07:13. > :07:18.But Ukip's newish leader played down the defeat,
:07:19. > :07:21.insisting his party's time would come.
:07:22. > :07:27.Are you going to stand again as an MP or has this
:07:28. > :07:30.No doubt I will stand again, don't worry about that.
:07:31. > :07:39.The politics of hope beat the politics of fear.
:07:40. > :07:42.I think Ukip are the ones this weekend who have got
:07:43. > :07:48.But a few minutes later, it turned out Labour had
:07:49. > :07:52.Harrison, Trudy Lynn, the Conservative Party
:07:53. > :08:03.That was more than 2,000 votes ahead of Labour.
:08:04. > :08:07.What has happened here tonight is a truly historic event.
:08:08. > :08:09.Labour were disappointed, but determined to be optimistic
:08:10. > :08:21.At a point when we're 15 to 18 points behind in the polls...
:08:22. > :08:25.The Conservatives within 2000 votes I think is an incredible
:08:26. > :08:29.The morning after the night before, the losing parties
:08:30. > :08:33.were licking their wounds and their lips over breakfast.
:08:34. > :08:37.For years and years, Ukip was Nigel Farage,
:08:38. > :08:43.That has now changed, that era has gone.
:08:44. > :08:46.It's a new era, it is a second age for us.
:08:47. > :08:51.So that needs to be more fully embedded,
:08:52. > :08:53.it needs to be more defined, you know, and that will
:08:54. > :09:02.We have to continue to improve in seats where we have stood.
:09:03. > :09:05.As we have done here, we've improved on our 2015 result,
:09:06. > :09:07.that's what important, is that we are taking steps
:09:08. > :09:12.Can I be the first to come here today to congratulate
:09:13. > :09:15.you on being elected the new MP for Stoke on Trent Central.
:09:16. > :09:18.Jeremy Corbyn has just arrived in Stoke to welcome his newest MP.
:09:19. > :09:23.Not sure he's going to Copeland later though.
:09:24. > :09:27.Earlier in the day, the Labour leader had made clear he'd
:09:28. > :09:29.considered and discounted some theories about the party's
:09:30. > :09:35.Since you found out that you'd lost a seat to a governing
:09:36. > :09:39.party for the first time since the Falklands War,
:09:40. > :09:42.have you at any point this morning looked in the mirror and asked
:09:43. > :09:46.yourself this question - could the problem actually be me?
:09:47. > :09:54.In the end it was the Conservatives who came out on top.
:09:55. > :09:56.No governing party has made a gain at a by-election
:09:57. > :10:02.With the self-styled people's army of Ukip halted in Stoke,
:10:03. > :10:07.and Labour's wash-out here in Copeland...
:10:08. > :10:18.There's little chance of rain on Theresa May's parade.
:10:19. > :10:21.In the wake of that loss in Copeland, the Scottish Labour Party
:10:22. > :10:23.has been meeting for its spring conference in the
:10:24. > :10:28.Yesterday, deputy leader Tom Watson warned delegates that unless Labour
:10:29. > :10:30.took the by-election defeat seriously, the party's devastation
:10:31. > :10:34.in Scotland could be repeated south of the border.
:10:35. > :10:36.Well, I'm joined now by the leader of Scottish Labour,
:10:37. > :10:51.Even after your party had lost Copeland to the Tories and with
:10:52. > :10:56.Labour now trailing 16 points in the UK polls, you claim to have every
:10:57. > :10:59.faith that Jeremy Corbyn would absolutely win the general election.
:11:00. > :11:06.What evidence can you bring to support that? There is no doubt the
:11:07. > :11:10.result in Copeland was disappointing for the Labour Party and I think
:11:11. > :11:13.it's a collective feeling for everyone within the Labour Party and
:11:14. > :11:17.I want to do what I can to turn around the fortunes of our party.
:11:18. > :11:23.That's what I've committed to do while I have been the Scottish
:11:24. > :11:27.Labour leader. This two years ago we were down the mines so to speak in
:11:28. > :11:31.terms of losing the faith of working class communities across the
:11:32. > :11:35.country, but we listened very hard to the message voters are sending
:11:36. > :11:38.and responded to it. That's what I'm committed to doing in Scotland and
:11:39. > :11:46.that's what Jeremy Corbyn is committed to doing UK wide. The
:11:47. > :11:50.latest polls put Labour at 14% in Scotland, the Tories at ten points
:11:51. > :11:56.ahead of you in Scotland, even Theresa May is more popular than
:11:57. > :12:01.Jeremy Corbyn in Scotland. So I will try again - why are you so sure
:12:02. > :12:07.Jeremy Corbyn could win a general election? What I said when you are
:12:08. > :12:11.talking about Scotland is that I'm the leader of the Scottish Labour
:12:12. > :12:14.Party and I take responsibility for our policies here. Voters said very
:12:15. > :12:17.clearly after the Scottish Parliament election that they didn't
:12:18. > :12:21.have a clear enough sense of what we stood for so I have been advocating
:12:22. > :12:25.a very strong anti-austerity platform, coming up with ideas of
:12:26. > :12:28.how we can oppose the cuts and invest in our future. That is
:12:29. > :12:32.something Jeremy Corbyn also supports but I've also made it clear
:12:33. > :12:39.this weekend that we are opposed to a second independence referendum. I
:12:40. > :12:42.want to bring Scotland back together by focusing on the future and that's
:12:43. > :12:47.why I have been speaking about the federal solution for the UK. I know
:12:48. > :12:51.that Jeremy Corbyn shares that ambition because he is backing the
:12:52. > :12:58.plans for a people's Constitutional Convention. Yes, these are difficult
:12:59. > :13:02.times for the Scottish Labour Party and UK family, but I have a plan in
:13:03. > :13:09.place to turn things around. It will take time though. I'm still not sure
:13:10. > :13:13.why you are so sure the Labour party can win but let me come onto your
:13:14. > :13:18.plan. You want a UK wide Constitutional Convention and that
:13:19. > :13:23.lead to a new Federalist settlement. Is it the policy of the Labour
:13:24. > :13:31.Shadow Cabinet in Westminster to carve England into federal regions?
:13:32. > :13:34.What we support at a UK wide level is the people's constitutional
:13:35. > :13:37.convention. I have been careful to prescribe what I think is in the
:13:38. > :13:41.best interests of Scotland but not to dictate to other parts of the UK
:13:42. > :13:47.what is good for them, that's the point of the people's constitutional
:13:48. > :13:50.convention. You heard Tom Watson say there has to be a UK wide
:13:51. > :13:54.conversation about power, who has it and how it is exercised across
:13:55. > :13:58.England. England hasn't been part of this devolution story over the last
:13:59. > :14:04.20 years, it is something that happened between Scotland and London
:14:05. > :14:07.or Wales and London. No wonder people in England feel
:14:08. > :14:14.disenfranchised from that. What evidence can you bring to show there
:14:15. > :14:17.is any appetite in England for an English federal solution to England,
:14:18. > :14:21.to carve England into federal regions? Have you spoken to John
:14:22. > :14:26.Prescott about this? He might tell you some of the difficulties.
:14:27. > :14:32.There's not even a debate about that here, Kezia Dugdale, it is fantasy.
:14:33. > :14:36.I speak to John Prescott regularly. What there is a debate about is the
:14:37. > :14:39.idea the world is changing so fast that globalisation is taking jobs
:14:40. > :14:43.away from communities in the north-east, that many working class
:14:44. > :14:47.communities feel left behind, that Westminster feels very far away and
:14:48. > :14:51.the politicians within it feel remote in part of the establishment.
:14:52. > :14:54.People are fed up with power being exercised somewhere else, that's
:14:55. > :14:58.where I think federalism comes in because it's about bringing power
:14:59. > :15:07.closer to people and in many ways it's forced on us because of Brexit.
:15:08. > :15:10.We know the United Kingdom is leaving the European Union so we
:15:11. > :15:12.have to talk about the repatriation of those powers from Brussels to
:15:13. > :15:15.Britain. I want many of those powers to go to the Scottish parliament but
:15:16. > :15:19.where should they go in the English context? It is not as things
:15:20. > :15:21.currently stand the policy of the English Labour Party to carve
:15:22. > :15:26.England into federal regions, correct?
:15:27. > :15:31.It is absolutely the policy of the UK Labour Party to support the
:15:32. > :15:38.people's Constitutional convention to examining these questions. I
:15:39. > :15:41.think it is really important. You're promising the Scottish people a
:15:42. > :15:47.federal solution, and you have not even squared your own party for a
:15:48. > :15:51.federal solution in England. That is not true. The UK Labour Party is
:15:52. > :15:55.united on this. I am going to Cardiff next month to meet with
:15:56. > :16:00.Carwyn Jones and various leaders. United on a federal solution? You
:16:01. > :16:03.know as well as I know it is not united on a federal solution. We
:16:04. > :16:06.will have a conversation about power in this country. It is not united on
:16:07. > :16:32.that issue? This is the direction of
:16:33. > :16:34.travel. It is what you heard yesterday from Sadiq Khan, from Tom
:16:35. > :16:37.Watson, when you hear from people like Nick Forbes who lead Newcastle
:16:38. > :16:39.City Council and Labour's Local Government Association. There is an
:16:40. > :16:41.appetite for talking about power. Talking is one thing. We need to
:16:42. > :16:44.have this conversation across the whole of the United Kingdom, to have
:16:45. > :16:46.a reformed United Kingdom. It is a conversation you're offering
:16:47. > :16:48.Scotland, not the policy. Let's come onto the labour made of London. He
:16:49. > :16:51.was in power for your conference. He wrote in the record yesterday, there
:16:52. > :16:53.is no difference between Scottish nationalism and racism. Would you
:16:54. > :16:57.like this opportunity to distance yourself from that absurd claim? I
:16:58. > :17:01.think that Sadiq Khan was very clear yesterday that he was not accusing
:17:02. > :17:07.the SNP of racism. What he was saying clearly is that nationalism
:17:08. > :17:11.by its very nature divides people and communities. That is what I said
:17:12. > :17:16.in my speech yesterday. I am fed up living in a divided and fractured
:17:17. > :17:21.country and society. Our politics is forcing is constantly to pick sides,
:17:22. > :17:25.whether you're a no, leave a remain, it brings out the worst in our
:17:26. > :17:29.politicians and politics. All the consensus we find in the grey areas
:17:30. > :17:32.is lost. That is why am standing under a banner that together we are
:17:33. > :17:49.stronger. We have to come up with ideas and focus on the future. That
:17:50. > :17:51.is why I agree with Sadiq Khan. He said quite clearly in the Daily
:17:52. > :17:54.Record yesterday, and that the last minute he adapted his speech to your
:17:55. > :17:56.conference yesterday, to try and reduce the impact, that there was no
:17:57. > :17:59.difference between Scottish nationalism and racism. Your
:18:00. > :18:03.colleague, and Sarwar, said that even after he had tried to introduce
:18:04. > :18:10.the caveats, all forms of nationalism rely on creating eyes
:18:11. > :18:14.and them. Let's call it for what it is. So you are implying that the
:18:15. > :18:19.Scottish Nationalists are racist. Would you care to distance yourself
:18:20. > :18:24.from that absurd claim? I utterly refute that that is what Sadiq Khan
:18:25. > :18:30.said. I would never suggest that the SNP are an inherently racist party.
:18:31. > :18:35.That does is a disservice. He did not see it. What he did say,
:18:36. > :18:40.however, is that nationalism is divisive. You know that better than
:18:41. > :18:44.anyone. I see your Twitter account. Regularly your attack for the job
:18:45. > :18:48.you do as a journalist. Politics in Scotland is divided on. I do not
:18:49. > :18:53.want to revisit that independence question again for that reason. As
:18:54. > :18:58.leader of the Labour Party, I want to bring our country back together,
:18:59. > :19:03.appeal to people who voted yes and no. That banner, together we are
:19:04. > :19:08.stronger, that is where the answers lie in defaulters can be found. If
:19:09. > :19:11.in response to the Mayor of London, your colleague says, let's call it
:19:12. > :19:19.out for what it is, what is he referring to if he is not implying
:19:20. > :19:24.that national symbol is racist? -- and that nationalism is racist? He
:19:25. > :19:29.is saying that it leads to divisive politics. The Labour Party has
:19:30. > :19:31.always advocated that together we are stronger. Saying something is
:19:32. > :19:37.divisive is very different from saying something is racist. That is
:19:38. > :19:41.what the Mayor of London said. That is what your colleague was referring
:19:42. > :19:47.to. He did not. You would really struggle to quote that from the
:19:48. > :19:53.Mayor of London. He talked about being divided by race. What does
:19:54. > :19:57.that mean? I think he was very clear that he was talking about divided
:19:58. > :20:01.politics. There is an appetite the length and breadth of the country to
:20:02. > :20:06.end that divisive politics. That is what I stand for, focusing on the
:20:07. > :20:09.future, bringing people back together, concentrating on what the
:20:10. > :20:13.economy might look like in 20 years' time in coming up with ideas to
:20:14. > :20:14.tackle it today. Thank you for joining us.
:20:15. > :20:16.Thursday's win for Labour in Stoke-on-Trent Central
:20:17. > :20:19.gave some relief to Jeremy Corbyn, but for Ukip leader and defeated
:20:20. > :20:21.Stoke candidate Paul Nuttall there were no consolation prizes.
:20:22. > :20:23.I'm joined now by Mr Nuttall's principal political
:20:24. > :20:34.Welcome to the programme. Good morning. How long will Paul Nuttall
:20:35. > :20:38.survivors Ukip leader, days, weeks, months? You are in danger of not
:20:39. > :20:43.seeing the wood for the trees. Ukip was formed in 1993 with the express
:20:44. > :20:47.purpose, much mocked, of getting Britain out of the European Union.
:20:48. > :20:51.Under the brilliant leadership of Nigel Farage, we were crucial in
:20:52. > :20:58.forcing a vacuous Prime Minister to make a referendum promise he did not
:20:59. > :21:01.want to give. With our friends in Fort leave and other organisations.
:21:02. > :21:08.Mac we know that. Get to the answer. We helped to win that referendum.
:21:09. > :21:13.The iteration of Ukip at the moment that we're in, the primary purpose,
:21:14. > :21:18.we are the guard dog of Brexit. Viewed through that prism, the Stoke
:21:19. > :21:23.by-election was a brilliant success. A brilliant success? We had the Tory
:21:24. > :21:28.candidate that had pumped out publicity for Remain, for Cameron
:21:29. > :21:31.Bradley, preaching the gospel of Brexit. We had a Labour candidate
:21:32. > :21:36.and we know what he really felt about Brexit, preaching the Gospel
:21:37. > :21:51.according to Brexit. You lost. Well the by-election was going on, we had
:21:52. > :21:55.the Labour Party in the House of Commons pass the idea of trickling
:21:56. > :21:57.Article 50 by a landslide. Are passionate thing, the thing that
:21:58. > :21:59.35,000 Ukip members care about the most, it is an extraordinary
:22:00. > :22:02.achievement. I am very proud. What would you have described as victory
:22:03. > :22:04.as? If we could have got Paul Nuttall into the House of Commons,
:22:05. > :22:10.that would have been a fantastic cherry on the top. Losing was an
:22:11. > :22:14.extraordinary achievement? Many Ukip supporters the Stoke was winnable,
:22:15. > :22:20.but Paul Nuttall's campaign was marred by controversy, Tory voters
:22:21. > :22:27.refuse to vote tactically for Ukip to beat Labour, his campaign, Mr
:22:28. > :22:33.Nuttall is to blame for not winning what was a winnable seat? I do not
:22:34. > :22:35.see that at all. This is counterintuitive, but Jeremy Corbyn
:22:36. > :22:42.did do one thing that made it more difficult for us to win. Fantasy.
:22:43. > :22:47.That was to take Labour into a Brexit position formerly. Just over
:22:48. > :22:51.50 Labour MPs had voted against triggering Article 50. In political
:22:52. > :22:55.terms, we have intimidated the Labour Party into backing Brexit.
:22:56. > :23:10.How much good is it doing you? It comes to the heart
:23:11. > :23:13.of the problem your party faces. You're struggling to win Tory
:23:14. > :23:15.Eurosceptic voters. For the moment, they seem happy with Theresa May.
:23:16. > :23:18.Stoke shows you're not winning Labour Brexit voters either. If you
:23:19. > :23:20.cannot get the solution Tolisso labour, where does your Broad come
:23:21. > :23:23.from? In terms of the by-election, it came very early for Paul. I'm
:23:24. > :23:27.talking about the future. We have a future agenda, and ideological
:23:28. > :23:32.argument with Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party, which is wedded to the notion
:23:33. > :23:36.of global citizenship and does not recognise the nation state. We know
:23:37. > :23:40.he spent Christmas sitting around campfires with Mexican Marxist
:23:41. > :23:43.dreaming of global government. We believe in the nation state. We
:23:44. > :23:49.believe that the patriotic working class vote will be receptive to
:23:50. > :23:53.that. Your Broad went down by 9% in Cortland. In Copeland we were
:23:54. > :24:01.squeezed. In Stoke, we were unable to squeeze the Tories, who are on a
:24:02. > :24:04.high. Our agenda is that social solidarity is important but we
:24:05. > :24:08.arrange it in this country by nation and community. We want an
:24:09. > :24:13.immigration system that is not only reducing... We know what you want. I
:24:14. > :24:18.do not think people do. You had a whole by-election to tell people and
:24:19. > :24:22.they did not vote for you and. When Nigel Farage said it was fundamental
:24:23. > :24:27.that you were winner in Stoke, he was wrong? Nigel chooses his own
:24:28. > :24:34.words. I would not rewrite them. It would be a massive advantage to Ukip
:24:35. > :24:37.to have a leader in the House of Commons in time to reply to the
:24:38. > :24:40.budget, Prime Minister's questions and all of that. But we have taken
:24:41. > :24:45.the strategic view that we will fight the Labour Party for the
:24:46. > :24:48.working class vote. It is also true that the Conservatives will make a
:24:49. > :24:52.pitch for the working class vote might as well. All three parties
:24:53. > :24:57.have certain advantages and disadvantages. As part of that page,
:24:58. > :25:01.Nigel Farage said that your leader, Paul Nuttall, should have taken a
:25:02. > :25:06.clear, by which I assume he meant tough, line on immigration. Do you
:25:07. > :25:12.agree? He took a tough line on immigration. He developed that idea
:25:13. > :25:16.at our party conference in the spring. Nigel Farage did not think
:25:17. > :25:19.so? Nigel Farage made his speech before Paul Nuttall made his speech.
:25:20. > :25:28.He said this in the aftermath of the result. Once we have freedom to
:25:29. > :25:32.control and Borders, Paul wants to set up an immigration system that
:25:33. > :25:38.includes an aptitude test, do you have skills that the British economy
:25:39. > :25:43.needs, but also, and attitudes test, do you subscribe to core British
:25:44. > :25:46.values such as gender equality and freedom of expression? We will be
:25:47. > :25:51.making these arguments. It is certainly true that Paul's campaign
:25:52. > :25:54.was thrown off course by, particularly something that we knew
:25:55. > :26:00.the Labour Party had been preparing to run, the smear on the untruths,
:26:01. > :26:04.the implications about Hillsborough. If you knew you should have
:26:05. > :26:09.anticipated it. Alan Banks, he helps to bankroll your party, he said that
:26:10. > :26:14.Mr Nuttall needs to toss out the Tory cabal in Europe, by which he
:26:15. > :26:19.means Douglas Carswell, Neil Hamilton. Should they be stripped of
:26:20. > :26:23.their membership? Of course not. As far as I knew, Alan Banks was a
:26:24. > :26:28.member of the Conservative Party formally. I do not know who this
:26:29. > :26:32.Tory cabal is supposed to be. He says that your party is more like a
:26:33. > :26:35.jumble sale than a political party. He says that the party should make
:26:36. > :26:41.him chairman or they will work. What do you see to that? He has made that
:26:42. > :26:44.statement several times over many months, including if you do not
:26:45. > :26:48.throw out your only MP. Douglas Carswell has managed to win twice
:26:49. > :26:53.under Ukip colours. Should Tibi chairman? I think we have an
:26:54. > :27:00.excellent young chairman at the moment. He is doing a good job. The
:27:01. > :27:05.idea that Leave.EU was as smooth running brilliant machine, that does
:27:06. > :27:09.not sit with the facts as I understand them. Suzanne Evans says
:27:10. > :27:13.it would be no great loss for Ukip if Mr Banks walked out, severed his
:27:14. > :27:18.ties and took his money elsewhere. Is she right. I am always happy
:27:19. > :27:22.people who want to give money and support your party want to stay in
:27:23. > :27:27.the party. The best donors donate and do not seek to dictate. If they
:27:28. > :27:31.are experts in certain fields, people should listen to their views
:27:32. > :27:35.but to have a daughter telling the party leader who should be party
:27:36. > :27:39.chairman, that is a nonstarter. You have described your existing party
:27:40. > :27:45.chairman is excellent. He said it could be 20 years before Ukip wins
:27:46. > :27:49.by-election. Is he being too optimistic? There is a general
:27:50. > :27:54.election coming up in the years' time. We will be aiming to win seats
:27:55. > :27:59.in that. Before that, we will be the guard dog for Brexit, to make sure
:28:00. > :28:03.this extraordinary achievement of a little party... You are guard dog
:28:04. > :28:07.without a kennel, you cannot get seat? We're keeping the big
:28:08. > :28:12.establishment parties to do the will of the people. If we achieve nothing
:28:13. > :28:13.else at all, that will be a magnificent achievement. Thank you
:28:14. > :28:15.very much. Sweden isn't somewhere
:28:16. > :28:17.we talk about often should because this
:28:18. > :28:20.week it was pulled into the global spotlight,
:28:21. > :28:21.thanks Last weekend, Mr Trump was mocked
:28:22. > :28:30.for referring to an incident that had occurred last night in Sweden
:28:31. > :28:33.as a result of the country's open Critics were quick to point out that
:28:34. > :28:37.no such incident had occurred and Mr Trump later clarified
:28:38. > :28:40.on Twitter and he was talking about a report he had
:28:41. > :28:43.watched on Fox News. But as if to prove
:28:44. > :28:45.he was onto something, next day a riot broke out
:28:46. > :28:48.in a Stockholm suburb with a large migrant population,
:28:49. > :28:50.following unrest in such areas So what has been Sweden's
:28:51. > :29:00.experience of migration? In 2015, a record 162,000 people
:29:01. > :29:03.claimed asylum there, the second That number dropped to 29,000
:29:04. > :29:10.in 2016 after the country introduced border restrictions and stopped
:29:11. > :29:11.offering permanent Tensions have risen,
:29:12. > :29:19.along with claims of links to crime, although official statistics do not
:29:20. > :29:22.provide evidence of a refugee driven Nigel Farage defended Mr Trump,
:29:23. > :29:30.claiming this week that migrants have led to a dramatic rise
:29:31. > :29:33.in sexual offences. Although the country does
:29:34. > :29:35.have the highest reported rate of rape in Europe,
:29:36. > :29:38.Swedish authorities say recent rises were due to changes to how rape
:29:39. > :29:43.and sex crimes are recorded. Aside from the issue of crime,
:29:44. > :29:45.Sweden has struggled Levels of inequality between natives
:29:46. > :29:51.and migrants when it comes Unemployment rates are three times
:29:52. > :29:54.higher for foreign-born workers We're joined now by Laila Naraghi,
:29:55. > :30:07.she's a Swedish MP from the governing Social Democratic Party,
:30:08. > :30:23.and by the author and The Swedish political establishment
:30:24. > :30:27.was outraged by Mr Trump's remarks, pointing to a riot that hadn't taken
:30:28. > :30:31.place, then a few nights later serious riots did break out in a
:30:32. > :30:36.largely migrant suburb of Stockholm so he wasn't far out, was he? I
:30:37. > :30:42.think he was far out because he is misleading the public with how he
:30:43. > :30:45.uses these statistics. I think it is important to remember that the
:30:46. > :30:49.violence has decreased in Sweden for the past 20 years and research shows
:30:50. > :30:57.there is no evidence that indicate that immigration leads to crime and
:30:58. > :31:01.so I think it is far out. The social unrest in these different areas is
:31:02. > :31:04.not because of their ethical backgrounds of these people living
:31:05. > :31:13.there but more about social economic reasons. OK, no evidence migrants
:31:14. > :31:18.are responsible for any kind of crime? This story reminds me after
:31:19. > :31:22.what happened to the Charlie Hebdo attacks in Paris when also a Fox
:31:23. > :31:28.News commentator said something that was outlandish about Paris and the
:31:29. > :31:33.Mayor of Paris threatened to sue Fox News, saying you are making our city
:31:34. > :31:38.look bad. It's a bit like that because the truth on this lies
:31:39. > :31:41.between Donald Trump on the Swedish authorities on this. Sweden and
:31:42. > :31:46.Swedish government is very reluctant to admit any downsides of its own
:31:47. > :31:51.migration policy and particularly the migration it hard in 2015 but
:31:52. > :31:57.there are very obvious downsides because Sweden is not a country that
:31:58. > :32:02.needs a non-skilled labour force which doesn't speak Swedish. What
:32:03. > :32:08.was raised as the matter of evidence, what is the evidence?
:32:09. > :32:11.First of all if I can say so the rape statistics in Sweden that have
:32:12. > :32:16.been cited are familiar with the rape statistics across other
:32:17. > :32:18.countries that have seen similar forms of migration. Danish
:32:19. > :32:24.authorities and the Norwegian authorities have recorded a similar
:32:25. > :32:31.thing. It is not done by ethnicity so we don't know. And this is part
:32:32. > :32:36.of the problem. It is again a lot of lies and rumours going about. When
:32:37. > :32:40.it is about for example rape, it is difficult to compare the statistics
:32:41. > :32:44.because in Sweden for example many crimes that in other countries are
:32:45. > :32:51.labelled as bodily harm or assault are in Sweden labelled as rape. Also
:32:52. > :32:57.how it is counted because if a woman goes to the police and reports that
:32:58. > :33:05.her husband or boyfriend has raped her, and done it every night for one
:33:06. > :33:09.year, in Sweden that is counted as 365 offences. Something is going
:33:10. > :33:13.wrong, I look at the recent news from Sweden. Six Afghan child
:33:14. > :33:16.refugees committed suicide in the last six months, unemployment among
:33:17. > :33:23.recent migrants now five times higher than among non-migrants. We
:33:24. > :33:28.have seen gang violence in Malmo where a British child was killed by
:33:29. > :33:33.a grenade, rioting in Stockholm. Police in Sweden say there are 53
:33:34. > :33:39.areas of the country where it is now dangerous to patrol. Something has
:33:40. > :33:44.gone wrong. Let me get back to what I think is the core of this debate
:33:45. > :33:48.if I may and that is the right for people fleeing war and political
:33:49. > :33:52.persecution to seek asylum, that is a human right. In Sweden we don't
:33:53. > :33:57.think we can do everything, but we want to live up to our obligation,
:33:58. > :34:01.every country has an obligation to receive asylum seekers. But you have
:34:02. > :34:07.changed your policy on that because having taken 163,001 year alone, you
:34:08. > :34:11.have then closed your borders, I think very wisely, closed the border
:34:12. > :34:16.which means 10,000 people per day at one point were walking from Denmark
:34:17. > :34:22.in to Malmo, you rightly changed that so he realised whatever ones
:34:23. > :34:25.aspirations in terms of asylum, it sometimes meets reality and Sweden
:34:26. > :34:30.is meeting the reality of this. Let's respond to that. We are not
:34:31. > :34:34.naive, we know we cannot do everything but we want to try to do
:34:35. > :34:39.our share as we think other countries also need to do their
:34:40. > :34:42.share. But let me say that, if you look at what the World Economic
:34:43. > :34:46.Forum is saying about our country they show we are in the top of many
:34:47. > :34:56.rankings, the best country to live in, to age in, to have children in,
:34:57. > :35:02.to start into -- to start enterprise. Why have you not been so
:35:03. > :35:07.good at integrating migrants? The unemployment rate is five times
:35:08. > :35:11.higher among migrants than non-migrants and that's the highest
:35:12. > :35:15.ratio of any country in the EU and the OECD, why have you not been able
:35:16. > :35:20.to integrate the people you have brought in for humanitarian reasons?
:35:21. > :35:24.I'm sure there are things we can do much better of course but if you
:35:25. > :35:28.look for example at the immigration that came in the 90s from the
:35:29. > :35:32.Balkans, they are well integrated and contributing to our society.
:35:33. > :35:36.They are starting enterprises and working in different fields of
:35:37. > :35:45.society, and they help our country. Why have they not got jobs, the
:35:46. > :35:51.migrants that have come in? It takes time. In the 90s we managed it and
:35:52. > :35:54.I'm sure we can do it again. Can I put this into some context, it is
:35:55. > :35:58.clear Sweden has got problems as a result of the number of migrants
:35:59. > :36:03.that come in, whether it is as bad as Mr Trump and others make out is
:36:04. > :36:07.another matter, but perhaps I can put it into context. Malmo, which
:36:08. > :36:14.has been at the centre of many of these migrant problems, its homicide
:36:15. > :36:20.rate is three per hundred thousand. Chicago, 28 per 100,000. It may have
:36:21. > :36:25.problems but they are not huge. No, they are pretty huge and I think
:36:26. > :36:29.they will grow. The Balkan refugees into Sweden in the 90s did bring a
:36:30. > :36:34.lot of problems and Sweden did for the first time see serious ethnic
:36:35. > :36:40.gang rivalries. There was an upsurge in gang-related violence that has
:36:41. > :36:43.gone on since. The situation in Malmo in particular is exaggerated
:36:44. > :36:47.by some people, there's no doubt about that, I have been there many
:36:48. > :36:52.times and it is undoubtedly exaggerated by some, it is also
:36:53. > :37:03.vastly unpersuaded by the Swedish authorities. -- understated. In
:37:04. > :37:12.2010, one in ten Jews in Malmo registered some form of attack on
:37:13. > :37:16.them. It got so bad that in 2010 people offered to escort Jews... You
:37:17. > :37:23.have had a good say and I have got to be fair here, what do you say to
:37:24. > :37:27.that, Laila Naraghi? There are people trying to frame our country
:37:28. > :37:31.in a certain way to push their own agenda. I regret that President
:37:32. > :37:37.Trump is trying to slander our country. But what about the specific
:37:38. > :37:41.point on Malmo? If you speak to people in Malmo and also to
:37:42. > :37:45.different congregations, they say they are working together with the
:37:46. > :37:50.authorities to improve this. I say again, there are a lot of people
:37:51. > :37:55.trying to spread rumours and lies. Your situation is very like the
:37:56. > :38:00.situation we had in Britain when we have these situations in Rotherham
:38:01. > :38:04.and elsewhere. 1400 girls were raped in Rotherham before police even
:38:05. > :38:08.admitted it was going on. That happened in Britain in the last
:38:09. > :38:12.decade, a similar phenomenon. An upsurge in particularly sexual and
:38:13. > :38:16.other forms of violence and then total denial by an entire political
:38:17. > :38:20.class is now something that is happening in Sweden. I see it in
:38:21. > :38:25.Swedish authorities and the denial that comes up and the desire to
:38:26. > :38:29.laugh and dismiss Trump but he's not answer nothing and that's a painful
:38:30. > :38:38.thing for any society to want to admit to. There are number of Swedes
:38:39. > :38:43.who think the establishment is covering up the true statistics,
:38:44. > :38:46.that you don't break crime down by ethnic crimes, people are suspicious
:38:47. > :38:53.of the centre-left and centre-right parties now in Sweden. There is no
:38:54. > :38:57.denial and no cover-up. This is what I'm speaking about when I say people
:38:58. > :39:00.are trying to frame it in a certain way. The social unrest is not
:39:01. > :39:05.because of the ethnical background of the people living there but
:39:06. > :39:07.rather because of different socioeconomics conditions. There is
:39:08. > :39:13.no research that shows immigration... But you don't do the
:39:14. > :39:17.research into it. Swedish authorities deliberately ensure you
:39:18. > :39:22.cannot carry out such research and after the attacks in Cologne in 2015
:39:23. > :39:25.it was the first time then that the Swedish authorities and press
:39:26. > :39:31.admitted that similar sexual molestation have been going on for
:39:32. > :39:36.years in Sweden. Is it right to think, given the problem is maybe
:39:37. > :39:42.not as bad as many people make out but clearly problems, given these
:39:43. > :39:46.problems, is the age of mass asylum seeking for Sweden over? You have
:39:47. > :39:50.cut the numbers by 80% coming in last year compared with 2015, is it
:39:51. > :39:55.over while you concentrate on getting right the people that you
:39:56. > :39:59.have there already? We want to do our share, we have done a lot and
:40:00. > :40:00.now we are concentrating of course on integration and making sure
:40:01. > :40:16.people get a job, and also on big welfare investments because
:40:17. > :40:18.it's important to remember that for eight years Sweden were governed by
:40:19. > :40:21.a government that prioritised big tax cuts instead of investment in
:40:22. > :40:23.welfare. It may just not work. I am grateful to you both, we have to
:40:24. > :40:24.leave it there. It's coming up to 11:40am,
:40:25. > :40:27.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:40:28. > :40:29.in Scotland, who leave us now the Week Ahead, when we'll be asking
:40:30. > :40:50.if the Government is facing defeat This is the Sunday politics in the
:40:51. > :40:54.south-east. Coming up later, we visit a safe house for women who
:40:55. > :40:58.have been victims of modern-day slavery. The government has promised
:40:59. > :41:05.to take action but is enough being done to support those affected once
:41:06. > :41:09.they go back out into the world? I am joined by the Conservative MP
:41:10. > :41:15.four-wheeled in and Baroness Maggie Jones, who sits in the Lords for the
:41:16. > :41:19.Whether it is an independent Whether it is an independent
:41:20. > :41:22.high-street shop or a Hotel on the south coast, small businesses across
:41:23. > :41:26.the south-east are worried about the changes in business rates being
:41:27. > :41:29.introduced shortly. For many of them, there will be a significant
:41:30. > :41:34.increase because of the high value of properties in this region. A
:41:35. > :41:38.couple of weeks ago, a ghost house on in Eastbourne spoke to us. The
:41:39. > :41:45.rateable value of her property has more than doubled. The price of the
:41:46. > :41:51.property has not come up 120% and certainly the raids we are charging
:41:52. > :41:58.for our rooms have not gone up more than five or ?10 in the whole of
:41:59. > :42:02.that period because the market is so competitive. On Wednesday, the Green
:42:03. > :42:05.MP Caroline Lucas put the issue to the Prime Minister. The governments
:42:06. > :42:10.business rates hike could devastate the local economy and my Brighton
:42:11. > :42:20.constituency. Brighton Pier is facing a 17% increase. Blanche house
:42:21. > :42:23.Hotel, a 400% increase. Does the Prime Minister recognise that
:42:24. > :42:28.Brighton will be disproportionately affected and will she urgently set
:42:29. > :42:32.up both a discretionary fund to support small and micro businesses
:42:33. > :42:35.and agree to a full review of the system? I recognise that there has
:42:36. > :42:38.been particularly concerned that there will be some small businesses
:42:39. > :42:44.that are particularly adversely River -- affected by the result of
:42:45. > :42:47.this and that is why I have asked the Chancellor and the Communities
:42:48. > :42:53.Secretary to make sure there is appropriate relief in those it
:42:54. > :42:56.areas. So there may be some recompense in the budget next month
:42:57. > :42:57.but no new money has been promised. We don't yet know how much
:42:58. > :43:03.difference it would make. Can we difference it would make. Can we
:43:04. > :43:09.agree this has been really badly handled by the government? This
:43:10. > :43:13.happened to be the seventh year and it is an issue for some businesses
:43:14. > :43:17.but in my constituency, overall, the rates will go down by 2.5%. Three
:43:18. > :43:24.quarters of businesses will be better off. So, why did the Prime
:43:25. > :43:28.Minister have to admit that recompense was needed? We do have a
:43:29. > :43:32.quarter of businesses that will see a change and there is already a
:43:33. > :43:35.budget to help that transitional period. I still have a number of
:43:36. > :43:41.small businesses in my constituency who are worried about what this rate
:43:42. > :43:44.might mean. It is right that MPs are lobbying their minister and the
:43:45. > :43:49.Chancellor to make sure that if there are any tweaks that need to be
:43:50. > :43:53.businesses in Brighton and elsewhere businesses in Brighton and elsewhere
:43:54. > :43:57.are facing a rise of around 400% in their rateable values and therefore
:43:58. > :44:03.their bills are going to increase sharply. This issue was not going to
:44:04. > :44:06.go away. You can still appeal of the rate is as much as you have just
:44:07. > :44:11.pointed out that the issue is that we are told these rates are sent out
:44:12. > :44:21.and businesses know what happening. You get a real flavour of what is
:44:22. > :44:26.happening. Three quarters of businesses will be better off. I
:44:27. > :44:28.know, but we are talking about in the south-east they will be
:44:29. > :44:34.disproportionately affected. There are a lot of small businesses, the
:44:35. > :44:35.price of property is higher here. In a conservative heartland for the
:44:36. > :44:40.large part, Harveys Brewery, a large part, Harveys Brewery, a
:44:41. > :44:44.well-known Sussex business, they are saying that some of their smaller
:44:45. > :44:47.outlets, smaller community pubs, they think will have two shot
:44:48. > :44:54.because they cannot cope with this huge rise. Are you worried about
:44:55. > :44:57.bad? I am worried. I have been visiting the pubs across my
:44:58. > :45:00.constituency. That is why we have been lobbying the Chancellor and the
:45:01. > :45:06.Minister to make sure that there are tweaks at the next budget statement.
:45:07. > :45:11.Good news for Brighton. The issue was raised by the Green MP and the
:45:12. > :45:15.Prime Minister responded. Well, she responded with sympathy but no extra
:45:16. > :45:18.cash. I am sorry but I think it will take more than the odd tweak to
:45:19. > :45:24.reassure some of the small businesses in Brighton and Hove. We
:45:25. > :45:28.rely on the self-employed, small band coming businesses and it will
:45:29. > :45:34.be devastating for them to be hit by the sorts of increases we are
:45:35. > :45:37.talking about just when they are off and being able to employ a few more
:45:38. > :45:42.those small businesses in particular those small businesses in particular
:45:43. > :45:46.and it is ironic the whole way that this new business rate is being
:45:47. > :45:49.configured to that Amazon, huge multinational, will pay less and the
:45:50. > :45:55.small businesses are paying more. That cannot be right. Absolutely
:45:56. > :45:59.right. We have to try and address why high-street businesses,
:46:00. > :46:05.having to tackle competition from having to tackle competition from
:46:06. > :46:08.Internet companies, how we can make them more profitable and more
:46:09. > :46:11.successful going forward but having said that, there are winners and
:46:12. > :46:19.losers and three quarters of businesses will be better off. We
:46:20. > :46:22.rely on small businesses and they will be disproportionately affected.
:46:23. > :46:25.As a Conservative MP in the area, this is something that increasingly
:46:26. > :46:30.we are seeing, they are the ones having to take the fight to their
:46:31. > :46:35.own government. Which is why we are raising above the Chancellor and the
:46:36. > :46:38.Minister. A ?3.6 billion fund is available to help the transitional
:46:39. > :46:44.period. I am hoping that people are listening. And if they don't? Let's
:46:45. > :46:47.wait and see. We will have to wait and see. There is a fund in place to
:46:48. > :46:54.help those in a transitional period, if they are struggling. Small
:46:55. > :46:56.businesses, independent businesses, they are the lifeline of my
:46:57. > :47:00.constituency and I will continue to campaign on their behalf. This was
:47:01. > :47:05.an opportunity for Labour but actually it appears that Jeremy
:47:06. > :47:10.Corbyn couldn't decide what the party 's policy on small businesses
:47:11. > :47:14.and rateable values is. Could you enlighten us? We have been very
:47:15. > :47:16.clear in the past that our policy is that we believe that small
:47:17. > :47:23.businesses, we should cut the business rate. That is still our
:47:24. > :47:27.policy, as far as I am concerned. There should be a cut for small
:47:28. > :47:31.businesses and then a freeze. But apart from that, we need to do more
:47:32. > :47:35.to kind of investor to actually bring in new money through national
:47:36. > :47:41.investment bank to invest in small businesses so business rates are
:47:42. > :47:44.just one tax... Getting back to the Labour Party, this was a lost
:47:45. > :47:48.opportunity. This is precisely the kind of issue that you could be
:47:49. > :47:55.fighting the government on, not believing it to the Conservative
:47:56. > :47:58.MPs? And Caroline Lucas. All our spokespeople have been absolutely at
:47:59. > :48:01.one with the people who have been raising concerns about the way that
:48:02. > :48:04.the business rate is going to affect their local community. They have
:48:05. > :48:09.spoken out about it and have been quite clear that it is not fair and
:48:10. > :48:12.we need to have a fairer system with a longer transitional period and
:48:13. > :48:16.extra cash. We are on record as saying that. It goes beyond that. We
:48:17. > :48:21.need a complete revaluation of the system that we have at the moment.
:48:22. > :48:24.Widening things out a little, there is a pattern here, we have seen it
:48:25. > :48:30.with the schools funding issue, increasingly it feels like the
:48:31. > :48:33.government is happy to come up with policies that will compromise their
:48:34. > :48:43.own loyal supporters in the south-east of Inman. You worried
:48:44. > :48:48.that will get worse? -- North -- South East of England. Business
:48:49. > :48:54.rates are evaluated every five years. There was a bit more of a
:48:55. > :48:57.change. The by-election results are fantastic for the Conservative
:48:58. > :49:01.Party. We have won a Labour seat that has been held by the Labour
:49:02. > :49:05.Party since the 1930s. It shows that not only Conservative parties were
:49:06. > :49:11.macro policies but also our Prime Minister is reaching across to all
:49:12. > :49:14.backgrounds. There are several policies which are angering loyal
:49:15. > :49:21.Conservative MPs in the South East and that surely is going to be a
:49:22. > :49:24.risk for her. The fairer funding for Miller is an issue in my
:49:25. > :49:27.constituency and I have been campaigning hard with a number of my
:49:28. > :49:35.neighbouring MPs to try and just make sure that it is... It is not
:49:36. > :49:39.quite work out well for us. We are lobbying as hard as we can but the
:49:40. > :49:41.by-election results show that we are most definitely on track in making
:49:42. > :49:46.sure that we reach out to all corners of our country. OK, we are
:49:47. > :49:50.going to move on. The Prime Minister has called it a barbaric evil and
:49:51. > :49:55.promised to tackle the modern-day slave trade. Is enough being done to
:49:56. > :50:01.support victims once they leave their dramatic experience behind and
:50:02. > :50:08.go back into the outside world? Slavery and forced labour hidden
:50:09. > :50:11.here in Britain today. And the main gateway for the human traffickers
:50:12. > :50:18.and gang masters is the south-east. The victims, often from abroad, are
:50:19. > :50:21.duped to coming to Britain on the promise of a well-paid job but when
:50:22. > :50:29.they arrived, the reality is very different. Marina came to Kent from
:50:30. > :50:33.Lithuania. He was hired to catch chickens on a farm like this one by
:50:34. > :50:38.a company near Maidstone described as the worst UK gang master ever. He
:50:39. > :50:43.says he was forced to live and work in horrific conditions. Working was
:50:44. > :51:05.painful. the modern slave trade goes on.
:51:06. > :51:11.Often it is sexual exploitation or forced labour in nail bars, car
:51:12. > :51:15.washes and cannabis farms. The Home Office estimates that there are
:51:16. > :51:22.213,000 potential victims of slavery in the UK. 2015 saw a 40% increase
:51:23. > :51:26.in the number of people identified in the number of people identified
:51:27. > :51:31.and liberated from trafficking. 14% of those were in the south-east. The
:51:32. > :51:37.government has recognised that Modern Slavery Bill is on the
:51:38. > :51:41.2015, landmark legislation was 2015, landmark legislation was
:51:42. > :51:46.introduced to eradicate it. It was the first of its kind in Europe but
:51:47. > :51:52.two years on, have those new laws really made a difference? And are
:51:53. > :51:59.the victims who have escaped the trauma of trafficking and slavery
:52:00. > :52:05.getting the support they need? This is a safe house in Kent. A haven for
:52:06. > :52:08.up to 50 women and children, many of whom have suffered harrowing sexual
:52:09. > :52:15.exploitation. It is almost always full. Some will have an opportunity
:52:16. > :52:20.to flee their exploitation, if they have been put in brothels, somebody
:52:21. > :52:24.there is a nice punter who is trying there is a nice punter who is trying
:52:25. > :52:29.to help the individual, so they will just literally leg it with whatever
:52:30. > :52:33.close they got on, some are very fragile. They are usually
:52:34. > :52:36.traumatised, Bubba be crying, shaking, we have some will have
:52:37. > :52:42.literally been violently sick on the doorstep and the stress and the
:52:43. > :52:45.anxiety that they feel is immense. Victims can hear and other places
:52:46. > :52:51.like it while the government investigates their cases. But once
:52:52. > :52:55.the investigation is complete, that support stops. Campaigners say that
:52:56. > :53:02.can be devastating for victims and they want it to change. There is no
:53:03. > :53:05.typical victim of Modern Slavery Bill people are highly traumatised
:53:06. > :53:10.and they will need many months of support. Others want to get back on
:53:11. > :53:12.their feet quite quickly. I think we would want a system built around the
:53:13. > :53:16.individual needs rather than a fixed individual needs rather than a fixed
:53:17. > :53:21.amount of time. The government is piloting a new scheme to change the
:53:22. > :53:26.anti-slavery charities say more anti-slavery charities say more
:53:27. > :53:30.needs to be done. We know that many victims are leaving safe houses and
:53:31. > :53:33.because there is no support long term provided, they are going
:53:34. > :53:38.Gestede. We have heard police officer saying they have put victims
:53:39. > :53:44.into safe houses three times. Each time they leave, they are then being
:53:45. > :53:48.re-trafficked. The DeMent says it was to lead the world in combating
:53:49. > :53:52.Modern Slavery Bill 's bid is a tough, no-nonsense line but does the
:53:53. > :53:58.system go far enough for the victims struggling to rebuild their lives?
:53:59. > :54:03.-- the governmental joining us is Sarah Newton, the Home Office
:54:04. > :54:08.minister with responsibility for the issue of modern-day slavery. As we
:54:09. > :54:11.have been hearing, just at the point when a victim is officially
:54:12. > :54:17.recognised as that by the government, there support seems to
:54:18. > :54:21.be quite abruptly withdrawn and that appears to be a brutal system.
:54:22. > :54:25.Actually, that is not the case at all. The minimum amount of support
:54:26. > :54:29.that any victim had goes into one of the safe houses and the great job
:54:30. > :54:35.that they do like the one who had just seen in your film is 45 days
:54:36. > :54:40.but the needs of the individual are what drive the amount of support
:54:41. > :54:44.they are given. As was rightly said, some people want to go home actually
:54:45. > :54:47.and we have come up with all sorts of arrangements or organisations in
:54:48. > :54:52.Poland and Lithuania, so people can go home safely. At other times,
:54:53. > :54:57.people will need a lot of help. On average at the moment, most people
:54:58. > :55:02.are getting about 90 days' help. Is that enough do you think for someone
:55:03. > :55:07.who is fragile and traumatised. In many cases, it amounts to around two
:55:08. > :55:12.months, not 90 days. Is that enough for them to find somewhere to live
:55:13. > :55:18.and get back out there? The average is over 90 days but it can vary
:55:19. > :55:21.enormously. I have met somebody who has been receiving help for two
:55:22. > :55:22.years. We really do have to look at the circumstances of the
:55:23. > :55:28.individuals. Why then are the individuals. Why then are the
:55:29. > :55:32.Salvation Army who are closely involved in this line of work and
:55:33. > :55:40.the human trafficking foundation saying the government is not going
:55:41. > :55:44.nearly far enough to give support? I really am delighted that I work with
:55:45. > :55:48.have been really helping us to look have been really helping us to look
:55:49. > :55:53.at how we can improve the system. It is always more that you can do to
:55:54. > :56:00.support victims and we are utterly committed to doing that. We have
:56:01. > :56:04.been piloting a whole new mechanism, that is just one part of the journey
:56:05. > :56:07.that victims go on. So we have been working with a whole range of
:56:08. > :56:14.voluntary sector organisations, looking at what more we can do.
:56:15. > :56:19.Sorry to interrupt, we have had a look at the pilot schemes. It does
:56:20. > :56:22.not seem to talk about becoming more victim centres. Which is what the
:56:23. > :56:26.trafficking foundation wants the trafficking foundation wants the
:56:27. > :56:29.government to do. There is another talk about local responsibility for
:56:30. > :56:34.identifying victims but not actually about improving the support that you
:56:35. > :56:37.give to them. Victims are the heart of everything we do because it is
:56:38. > :56:42.the morally right thing to do but also it will help us secure better
:56:43. > :56:46.convictions if those people who have been trafficked feel safe and
:56:47. > :56:49.secure, they are far more likely to work with the police to enable us to
:56:50. > :56:54.get more prosecutions. That is what we want to see. We want to put the
:56:55. > :56:59.traffickers behind bars and prevent this barbaric activity happening in
:57:00. > :57:03.the first place. And that is another area where you have a problem. The
:57:04. > :57:06.conviction rate is pretty low. One other question I wanted to ask you
:57:07. > :57:14.is about permission to stay in the UK. People who have been identified
:57:15. > :57:17.as victims. The human trafficking foundation would like at least one
:57:18. > :57:21.years permit in the United States, they are given quite generous amount
:57:22. > :57:27.of times to stay in the country. But is not offered in the UK. Will that
:57:28. > :57:32.change? That is actually not true at all. Depending on the country's
:57:33. > :57:36.people have come from, there are different arrangements. Anybody who
:57:37. > :57:40.is helping the police to secure the prosecutions we want to see has the
:57:41. > :57:46.right to stay in the United Kingdom. The human trafficking foundation
:57:47. > :57:53.would like longer. I think if we want... The best thing we can do is
:57:54. > :57:57.to focus on those individual victims. While they are helping
:57:58. > :58:02.police secure those convictions, while we are helping them to pull
:58:03. > :58:07.their lives together, to help them go on with their lives, they have
:58:08. > :58:11.the support they need. Sarah Newton, thank you very much for joining us.
:58:12. > :58:14.I know this is adding that has been close to your heart, something you
:58:15. > :58:29.have been campaigning for. The conviction rates are incredibly low.
:58:30. > :58:31.Only one conviction from 56 individuals in Sussex. You are
:58:32. > :58:38.dealing with incredibly vulnerable people and it takes a huge amount of
:58:39. > :58:41.just time and encouragement to take these people forward to come and
:58:42. > :58:43.give evidence. They are so vulnerable, so afraid, it takes a
:58:44. > :58:49.huge amount of time and effort and we must not deny that debate at all.
:58:50. > :58:55.According to the report, the people on the front line, time is what they
:58:56. > :59:01.feel victims are not being given under the current system. As the
:59:02. > :59:04.minister said, if you focus on every individual victim, you try and
:59:05. > :59:12.support them for as long as they require that support for. And that
:59:13. > :59:20.is what it should be about. As soon as you set a date, if it is 12
:59:21. > :59:24.months, there is a drop-off. But I completely agree that the more
:59:25. > :59:25.convictions we have, the more confidence victims will have to come
:59:26. > :59:29.forward. But that requires us forward. But that requires us
:59:30. > :59:32.working with victims and building a lot of support and encouragement.
:59:33. > :59:38.They are so vulnerable on summary levels. I am sure you will be keen
:59:39. > :59:39.to point out it was the Labour government which introduced the
:59:40. > :59:45.mechanism but would you not concede... There was a lot of
:59:46. > :59:50.cross-party support for the Modern Slavery Bill, to be honest. You
:59:51. > :59:55.cannot accuse this governor of not tackling the issue head-on. We all
:59:56. > :00:01.supported the bill when it was first introduced. And we are supporting a
:00:02. > :00:05.lot of the things that the government are doing. I have to say
:00:06. > :00:11.that I take issue with the figures that the government are quoting. I
:00:12. > :00:15.think it is the tip of the iceberg. It is a hidden crime. As time goes
:00:16. > :00:19.by, we will get a much better idea of the scale of this and I think we
:00:20. > :00:22.will find it is hugely greater than the figures that are being quoted.
:00:23. > :00:29.This is part of the problem. People are not coming forward. It is very
:00:30. > :00:34.much a hidden... Subterfuge, and part of the reason people don't run
:00:35. > :00:37.away or don't seek help is because they don't have confidence that they
:00:38. > :00:41.are going to be looked after when they get into the system. And that
:00:42. > :00:46.is another issue that I think the foundation raised in the report. The
:00:47. > :00:51.sufficient -- the system is insufficient. People end up getting
:00:52. > :00:53.back into being trafficked, back into the hands of the National
:00:54. > :00:58.Referral Mechanism. Something is wrong. The Salvation Army makes a
:00:59. > :01:01.decision on how they are funding the individual projects. Each individual
:01:02. > :01:06.person that comes forward and seeks support, they are taken care of for
:01:07. > :01:09.as long as they needed. It is absolutely right. If they have got
:01:10. > :01:12.the confidence and it takes a huge a lot of courage to come forward and
:01:13. > :01:16.try and seeks justice, we have to sure that every time they come
:01:17. > :01:20.across someone who is an agent of the state, a police officer, they
:01:21. > :01:24.are treated with the utmost dignity and supported through the whole
:01:25. > :01:28.process. But that isn't the evidence that the Parliamentary enquiry had.
:01:29. > :01:33.They heard evidence from all sorts of people who did literally drop off
:01:34. > :01:37.at the end of the 45 days. And then they were lost in the system and
:01:38. > :01:43.disappeared. I think there is a real crisis. I am afraid we are going to
:01:44. > :01:51.for the news you may have missed for the news you may have missed
:01:52. > :01:55.this week in 60 seconds. Claims that Ukip floated electoral
:01:56. > :01:59.law during Nigel Farage is unsuccessful bid to become the
:02:00. > :02:06.import Dutch MP in 2015 have been strongly denied by the former
:02:07. > :02:11.leader. Hope not hate is calling for companies to investigate that money
:02:12. > :02:19.was not declared to the electoral watchdog. The leader of Kent County
:02:20. > :02:21.Council says proposed changes to the former are misguided and risk
:02:22. > :02:33.creating discrepancies between Labour and schools. The changes the
:02:34. > :02:36.think they are heading the right think they are heading the right
:02:37. > :02:41.spot at the moment. There are still too many anomalies. Southern rail
:02:42. > :02:47.says it has managed to run nearly 90% of train services on Wednesday
:02:48. > :02:50.despite strike action by the RMT. The union are calling for urgent
:02:51. > :02:59.talks with Southern rail to discuss rail guards.
:03:00. > :03:02.As a Sussex MP, what is your assessment of the Southern rail
:03:03. > :03:08.dispute at the moment? Is it more or less over? Cautiously optimistic. I
:03:09. > :03:17.am hoping that asset can bring their colleagues round to their idea...
:03:18. > :03:20.When the strikes are called off, we can go back to dealing with the
:03:21. > :03:25.management of the train and get a better service. A quick yes or no.
:03:26. > :03:29.Is it over? Well, the management needs sorting out and that is the
:03:30. > :03:32.real issue. Thank you very much to both my guests this week. But is it
:03:33. > :03:54.from us. I will be back next week. Welcome back. Article 50, which
:03:55. > :03:59.triggers the beginning of Britain leaving the European Union and start
:04:00. > :04:04.negotiations, is winding its way through the Lords in this coming
:04:05. > :04:10.week. Tarzan has made an intervention, let's just see the
:04:11. > :04:15.headline from the Mail on Sunday. Lord Heseltine, Michael Heseltine,
:04:16. > :04:18.my fightback starts here, he is going to defy Theresa May. I divide
:04:19. > :04:23.one Prime Minister over the poll tax, I'm ready to defy this one in
:04:24. > :04:28.the Lords over Brexit. There we go, that's going to happen this week. We
:04:29. > :04:34.will see how far he gets. I don't think he will get very far, I don't
:04:35. > :04:38.think Loyalist Tory MPs and Brexiteers are quaking in their
:04:39. > :04:42.boots at the prospect of a rebellion led by Michael Heseltine. I sense
:04:43. > :04:46.that many Tory MPs are already moving on to the next question about
:04:47. > :04:51.Brexit, and the discussion over how much it will cost us to come out.
:04:52. > :04:57.The fact they are already debating that suggests to me they feel things
:04:58. > :05:01.will go fairly smoothly in terms of the legislation. When I spoke to the
:05:02. > :05:06.Labour leader in the Lords last week on the daily politics, she said she
:05:07. > :05:13.was going to push hard for the kind of amendments Lord has all-time is
:05:14. > :05:19.talking about and they would bring that back to the Commons. But if the
:05:20. > :05:22.Commons pinged it back to the Lords with the amendments taken out, she
:05:23. > :05:29.made it clear that was the end of it. Is that right? That's about
:05:30. > :05:33.right. This is probably really a large destruction. There will be to
:05:34. > :05:39.micro issues that come up in the Lords, one is on the future of EU
:05:40. > :05:44.nationals, that could be voted on as soon as this Wednesday, and then the
:05:45. > :05:48.main vote in the Lords on a week on Tuesday, when there is this question
:05:49. > :05:52.of what sort of vote will MPs and peers get at the end of the Brexit
:05:53. > :05:56.process and that is what has all-time is talking about. He wants
:05:57. > :06:01.to make sure there are guarantees in place. The kind of things peers are
:06:02. > :06:03.looking for are pretty moderate and the Government have hinted they
:06:04. > :06:09.could deliver on both of them already. But they are still not
:06:10. > :06:15.prepared... Amber Rudd said they were not prepared... They may say
:06:16. > :06:20.yes we are going to do that but they won't allow whatever that is to be
:06:21. > :06:24.enshrined in the legislation. The question is whether we think this is
:06:25. > :06:27.dancing on the head of a pin. The Government have already promised
:06:28. > :06:31.something in the House of Commons, but will they write it down, I don't
:06:32. > :06:35.think that's the biggest problem in the world. In a sense this is a
:06:36. > :06:41.great magicians trick by Theresa May because it is not the most important
:06:42. > :06:44.thing. The most important thing in Brexit is going on in those
:06:45. > :06:47.committees behind closed doors when they are trying to work out what the
:06:48. > :06:51.next migration system is for Britain and there are some interesting,
:06:52. > :06:56.indeed toxic proposals, but at the moment Downing Street are happy to
:06:57. > :07:02.let us talk about the constitutional propriety of what MPs are doing over
:07:03. > :07:06.the next eight days. It seems to me the irony is that if we had a second
:07:07. > :07:11.chamber that can claim some kind of democratic legitimacy, which the one
:07:12. > :07:16.we have cannot, it would be able to cause the Government more trouble on
:07:17. > :07:19.this, it would be more robust. Absolutely. I saw the interview we
:07:20. > :07:28.did with the Labour Leader of the Lords, they are very conscious, of
:07:29. > :07:33.the fact they are not elected and have limited powers. She was clear
:07:34. > :07:37.to you they would not impede the timetable for triggering Article 50
:07:38. > :07:42.so we might get a bit of theatre, Michael Heseltine might deliver a
:07:43. > :07:47.brilliant speech. It is interesting that Euroscepticism gun under
:07:48. > :07:52.Margaret Thatcher in the Tory party but two offer senior ministers Ken
:07:53. > :07:55.Clarke and Michael Heseltine are the most prominent opponents now but
:07:56. > :08:00.they will change nothing at this point. She will have the space to
:08:01. > :08:04.trigger Article 50 within her timetable. Let's move on. Let me
:08:05. > :08:10.show you a picture tweeted by Nigel Farage.
:08:11. > :08:18.That is Nigel Farage and a small group of people having dinner, and
:08:19. > :08:22.within that small group of people is the president of the United States,
:08:23. > :08:27.and it was taken in the last couple of days. This would suggest that if
:08:28. > :08:32.he can command that amount of the President's time in a small group of
:08:33. > :08:37.people, then he's actually rather close to the president. Make no
:08:38. > :08:40.mistake about it, Nigel Farage is now to and fro Washington more
:08:41. > :08:48.regularly than perhaps he is here. Hopefully that LBC programme is
:08:49. > :08:53.recorded over in the state. He's not only close to the president but to a
:08:54. > :08:57.series of people within the administration. That relationship
:08:58. > :09:01.there is a remarkable one and one to keep an eye on. Will the main
:09:02. > :09:08.government be tempted to tap into that relationship at any time or is
:09:09. > :09:15.it just seething with anger? You can feel a ripple of discontentment over
:09:16. > :09:18.this. We are in the middle of negotiating the state visit and the
:09:19. > :09:23.sort of pomp and circumstance and what kind of greeting Britain should
:09:24. > :09:26.give Donald Trump when he comes over later in the year. There is a great
:09:27. > :09:31.deal of neurotic thought going into what that should look like, but one
:09:32. > :09:34.of the most interesting things about our relationship with Donald Trump
:09:35. > :09:37.is that there is a nervousness among some Cabinet ministers that we are
:09:38. > :09:42.being seen to go too far, too fast with the prospect of a trade deal.
:09:43. > :09:46.Even amongst some Brexiteer cabinet ministers, they worry we won't get a
:09:47. > :09:50.very good trade deal with the US and we are tolerably placing a lot of
:09:51. > :09:55.stalled by it. When we see the kind of deal they want to pitch with us
:09:56. > :10:02.there might be some pulling back and that could be an awkward moment in
:10:03. > :10:05.terms of our relationship, and no doubt Nigel at that term -- at that
:10:06. > :10:11.point will accuse the UK of doing the dirty on Donald Trump. If there
:10:12. > :10:19.was a deal, would they get it through the House of Commons? Nigel
:10:20. > :10:23.Farage is having dinner with the president, not bad as a kind of
:10:24. > :10:27.lifestyle but he's politically rootless, he won't be an MEP much
:10:28. > :10:32.longer so if you look at where is his political base to build on this
:10:33. > :10:36.great time he's having, there is one. Given that there is one I think
:10:37. > :10:40.he's just having a great time and it isn't much more significant than
:10:41. > :10:52.that. No? There's a lot to be said for having a great time. You are
:10:53. > :10:58.having a great time. Let's just look, because of the dominance of
:10:59. > :11:03.the Government we kind of it nor there are problems piling up, only
:11:04. > :11:08.what, ten days with the Budget to go, piling up for Mrs May and her
:11:09. > :11:14.government. The business rates which has alarmed a lot of Tories, this
:11:15. > :11:18.disability cuts which are really a serious problem for the Government,
:11:19. > :11:23.and the desperate need for more money for social care. There are
:11:24. > :11:26.other issues, there are problems there and they involve spending
:11:27. > :11:30.money. Absolutely and some people argue Theresa May has only one
:11:31. > :11:35.Monday and that is to deliver Brexit but it is impossible as a Prime
:11:36. > :11:41.Minister to ignore everything else. And she doesn't want to either. The
:11:42. > :11:45.bubbling issue of social care and the NHS is the biggest single
:11:46. > :11:49.problem for her in the weeks and months ahead, she has got to come up
:11:50. > :11:54.with something. And Mr Hammond will have to loosen his belt a little
:11:55. > :11:58.bit. I think he will in relation to the NHS, he didn't mention it in the
:11:59. > :12:02.Autumn Statement, which was remarkable, and he cannot get away
:12:03. > :12:05.with not mentioning it this time. If he mentions it, it has to be in a
:12:06. > :12:10.positive context in some way or another and it is one example of
:12:11. > :12:14.many. She is both strong because she is so far ahead in the opinion
:12:15. > :12:19.polls, but this in tray is one of the most daunting a Prime Minister
:12:20. > :12:24.has faced in recent times I think. Here is what will happen on Budget
:12:25. > :12:31.day, money will be more money, magically found down the back of the
:12:32. > :12:36.Treasury sofa. The projections are that he has wiggle room of about 12
:12:37. > :12:39.billion. But look at the bills, rebels involved in business rates
:12:40. > :12:45.suggest the Chancellor will have to throw up ?2 billion at that problem.
:12:46. > :12:48.3.7 billion is the potential cost of this judgment about disability
:12:49. > :12:54.benefits. The Government will try to find different ways of satisfying it
:12:55. > :12:58.but who knows. It will not popular. I'm not sure they will throw money
:12:59. > :13:01.at the NHS, they want an interim settlement on social care which will
:13:02. > :13:07.alleviate pressure on the NHS but they feel... That's another couple
:13:08. > :13:11.of billion by the way. They feel in the Treasury that the NHS has not
:13:12. > :13:19.delivered on what Simon Stevens promised them. But here is the
:13:20. > :13:23.bigger problem for Philip Hammond, he has two This year and he thinks
:13:24. > :13:25.the second one in the autumn is more important because that is when
:13:26. > :13:28.people will feel the cost living squeeze.
:13:29. > :13:31.The Daily Politics is back at noon on BBC Two tomorrow.
:13:32. > :13:34.We'll be back here at the same time next week.
:13:35. > :13:40.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.