12/03/2017

:00:33. > :00:38.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:39. > :00:42.David Davis tells MPs to leave the Brexit bill untouched,

:00:43. > :00:45.ahead of a week which could see Britain begin the process

:00:46. > :00:50.We'll talk to a Tory rebel and Ukip's Nigel Farage.

:00:51. > :00:52.Phillip Hammond's first budget hit the rocks thanks to a tax rise

:00:53. > :01:00.But how should we tax those who work for themselves?

:01:01. > :01:03.And remember Donald Trump's claim that Barack Obama had ordered

:01:04. > :01:11.We'll talk to the former Tory MP who set the whole story rolling.

:01:12. > :01:13.And in the south-east: With more Government money

:01:14. > :01:16.for adult social care, we ask where is it coming

:01:17. > :01:31.And joining me for all of that, three self-employed journalists

:01:32. > :01:35.who definitely don't deserve a tax break.

:01:36. > :01:36.It's Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer

:01:37. > :01:40.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme with all the carefree

:01:41. > :01:48.abandon of Katie Hopkins before a libel trial.

:01:49. > :01:50.BBC lawyers have suddenly got nervous!

:01:51. > :01:53.So first today, the government is gearing up to trigger Article 50,

:01:54. > :01:56.perhaps in the next 48 hours, and start negotiating Britain's

:01:57. > :01:59.Much has been written about the prospect of the Commons

:02:00. > :02:01.getting a "meaningful vote" on the deal Britain negotiates.

:02:02. > :02:04.Brexit Secretary David Davis was on the Andrew Marr programme

:02:05. > :02:06.earlier this morning and he was asked what happens

:02:07. > :02:16.Well, that is what is called the most favoured nation status deal

:02:17. > :02:21.There we go out, as it were, on WTO rules.

:02:22. > :02:24.That is why of course we do the contingency planning, to make

:02:25. > :02:32.The British people decided on June the 23rd last year

:02:33. > :02:37.My job, and the job of the government, is to make

:02:38. > :02:47.the terms on which that happens as beneficial as possible.

:02:48. > :02:54.There we have it, clearly, either Parliament votes for the deal when

:02:55. > :02:58.it is done or it out on World Trade Organisation rules. That's what the

:02:59. > :03:00.government means by a meaningful vote.

:03:01. > :03:06.I think we get over obsessed about whether there will be a legal right

:03:07. > :03:10.for Parliament to have a vote. If there is no deal or a bad deal, I

:03:11. > :03:13.think it would be politically impossible for the government to

:03:14. > :03:16.reject Parliament's desire for a vote because the atmosphere of

:03:17. > :03:19.politics will be completely different by then. I take David

:03:20. > :03:25.Davies seriously. Within Whitehall he has acquired a reputation as

:03:26. > :03:29.being the most conscientious and details sadly... And well briefed.

:03:30. > :03:32.Absolutely and well travelled in terms of European capitals of the

:03:33. > :03:35.three Brexit ministers. It is quite telling he said what he did and it

:03:36. > :03:40.is quite telling that within cabinet, two weeks ago he was

:03:41. > :03:43.floating the idea of no deal at all. Being if not the central estimate

:03:44. > :03:47.than a completely plausible eventuality. It is interesting. I

:03:48. > :03:53.would suggest the prospect of no deal is moving up the agenda. It is

:03:54. > :03:58.still less likely than more likely to happen. But it's no longer a kind

:03:59. > :04:02.of long tail way out there in the distance. Planning for no deal is

:04:03. > :04:04.the same as having contents insurance or travel insurance, plan

:04:05. > :04:08.for the worse case scenarios are prepared it happens. Even the worst

:04:09. > :04:12.case scenario, it's not that bad. Think of the Jeep 20, apart from the

:04:13. > :04:17.EU, four members of the G20 economies are successful members of

:04:18. > :04:21.the EU. The rest aren't and don't have trade deals but somehow these

:04:22. > :04:25.countries are prospering. They are growing at a higher rate. You are

:04:26. > :04:29.not frightened? Not remotely. We are obsessed with what we get from the

:04:30. > :04:33.EU and the key thing we get from leaving the EU is not the deal but

:04:34. > :04:36.the other deals we can finally make with other trading partners. They

:04:37. > :04:40.have higher growth than virtually every other EU country apart from

:04:41. > :04:44.Germany. It is sensible as a negotiating position for the

:04:45. > :04:48.government to say if there is no deal, we will accept there is no

:04:49. > :04:52.deal. We're not frightened of no deal. It was clear from what David

:04:53. > :04:55.Davies was saying that there will be a vote in parliament at the end of

:04:56. > :05:00.the process but there won't be a third option to send the government

:05:01. > :05:05.back to try to get a better deal. It is either the deal or we leave

:05:06. > :05:09.without a deal. In reality, that third option will be there. We don't

:05:10. > :05:14.know yet whether there will be a majority for the deal if they get

:05:15. > :05:19.one. What we do know now is that there isn't a majority in the

:05:20. > :05:24.Commons for no deal. Labour MPs are absolutely clear that no deal is

:05:25. > :05:27.worth then a bad deal. I've heard enough Tory MPs say the same thing.

:05:28. > :05:36.But they wouldn't get no deal through. When it comes to this vote,

:05:37. > :05:40.if whatever deal is rejected, there will then be, one way or another,

:05:41. > :05:43.the third option raised of go back again. But who gets to decide what

:05:44. > :05:48.is a bad deal? The British people will have a different idea than the

:05:49. > :05:55.two thirds of the Remain supporting MPs in the Commons. In terms of the

:05:56. > :05:59.vote, the Commons. Surely, if the Commons, which is what matters here,

:06:00. > :06:05.if the Commons were to vote against the deal as negotiated by the

:06:06. > :06:09.government, surely that would trigger a general election? If the

:06:10. > :06:12.government had recommended the deal, surely the government would then, if

:06:13. > :06:18.it still felt strongly about the deal, if the other 27 had said,

:06:19. > :06:22.we're not negotiating, extending it, it would in effect become a second

:06:23. > :06:25.referendum on the deal. In effect it would be a no-confidence vote in the

:06:26. > :06:28.government. You've got to assume that unless something massively

:06:29. > :06:32.changes in the opposition before then, the government would feel

:06:33. > :06:36.fairly confident about a general election on those terms. Unless the

:06:37. > :06:40.deal is hideously bad and obviously basso every vote in the country...

:06:41. > :06:44.The prior minister said if it is that bad she would have rather no

:06:45. > :06:50.deal. So that eventuality arrives. -- the Prime Minister has said. Not

:06:51. > :06:55.a second referendum general election in two years' time. Don't put any

:06:56. > :06:57.holidays for! LAUGHTER -- don't look any.

:06:58. > :07:00.So the Brexit bill looks likely to clear Parliament this week.

:07:01. > :07:04.That depends on the number of Conservative MPs who are prepared

:07:05. > :07:06.to vote against their government on two key issues.

:07:07. > :07:10.Theresa May could be in negotiations with our European

:07:11. > :07:12.partners within days, but there may be some

:07:13. > :07:14.wheeler-dealings she has to do with her own MPs, too.

:07:15. > :07:18.Cast your mind back to the beginning of month.

:07:19. > :07:20.The bill to trigger Article 50 passed comfortably

:07:21. > :07:28.But three Conservatives voted for Labour's amendments to ensure

:07:29. > :07:33.the rights of EU citizens already in the UK.

:07:34. > :07:36.Seven Tory MPs voted to force the government to give Parliament

:07:37. > :07:41.a say on the deal struck with the EU before it's finalised.

:07:42. > :07:45.But remember those numbers, they're important.

:07:46. > :07:49.On the issue of a meaningful vote on a deal, I'm told there might have

:07:50. > :07:51.been more rebels had it not been for this assurance from

:07:52. > :07:56.I can confirm that the government will bring forward a motion

:07:57. > :07:59.on the final agreement to be approved by both Houses

:08:00. > :08:03.And we expect, and intend, that this will happen before

:08:04. > :08:10.the European Parliament debates and votes on the final agreement.

:08:11. > :08:16.When the government was criticised for reeling back

:08:17. > :08:19.from when and what it would offer a vote on.

:08:20. > :08:22.The bill then moved into the Lords, where peers passed it

:08:23. > :08:30.And the second, that Parliament be given a meaningful vote on the terms

:08:31. > :08:33.of the deal or indeed a vote in the event of there

:08:34. > :08:37.The so-called Brexit bill will return to Commons

:08:38. > :08:41.Ministers insist that both amendments would weaken

:08:42. > :08:44.the government's negotiating hand and are seeking to overturn them.

:08:45. > :08:49.But, as ever, politics is a numbers game.

:08:50. > :08:51.Theresa May has a working majority of 17.

:08:52. > :08:55.On Brexit, though, it's probably higher.

:08:56. > :08:57.At least six Labour MPs generally vote with

:08:58. > :09:01.Plus, eight DUP MPs, two from the Ulster Unionist party

:09:02. > :09:08.If all Conservatives vote with the government as well,

:09:09. > :09:14.Therefore, 26 Conservative rebels are needed for the government to be

:09:15. > :09:21.So, are there rough waters ahead for Theresa May?

:09:22. > :09:23.What numbers are we looking at, in terms of a potential rebellion?

:09:24. > :09:26.I think we're looking at a large number of people who are interested

:09:27. > :09:29.This building is a really important building.

:09:30. > :09:31.It's symbolic of a huge amount of history.

:09:32. > :09:35.And for it not to be involved in this momentous time would,

:09:36. > :09:42.But he says a clear verbal statement from the government on a meaningful

:09:43. > :09:48.vote on any deal would be enough to get most Tory MPs onside.

:09:49. > :09:50.It was already said about David Jones.

:09:51. > :09:51.It's slightly unravelled a little bit during

:09:52. > :09:57.I think this is an opportunity to really get that clarity

:09:58. > :10:00.through so that we can all vote for Article 50 and get

:10:01. > :10:04.We've have spoken to several Tory MPs who say they are minded to vote

:10:05. > :10:08.One said the situation was sad and depressing.

:10:09. > :10:11.The other said that the whips must be worried because they don't

:10:12. > :10:17.A minister told me Downing Street was looking again at the possibility

:10:18. > :10:22.of offering a vote in the event of no deal being reached.

:10:23. > :10:24.But that its position was unlikely to change.

:10:25. > :10:26.And, anyway, government sources have told the Sunday Politics they're not

:10:27. > :10:33.That those Tory MPs who didn't back either amendment the first time

:10:34. > :10:37.round would look silly if they did, this time.

:10:38. > :10:40.It would have to be a pretty hefty lot of people changing their minds

:10:41. > :10:43.about things that have already been discussed in quite a lot of detail,

:10:44. > :10:47.last time it was in the Commons, for things to be reversed this time.

:10:48. > :10:50.There's no doubt that a number of Tory MPs are very concerned.

:10:51. > :10:53.Labour are pessimistic about the chances of enough Tory

:10:54. > :10:56.rebels backing either of the amendments in the Commons.

:10:57. > :10:59.The important thing, I think, is to focus on the fact

:11:00. > :11:02.that this is the last chance to have a say on this.

:11:03. > :11:06.If they're going to vote with us, Monday is the time to do it.

:11:07. > :11:08.Assuming the bill does pass the Commons unamended,

:11:09. > :11:11.it will go back to the Lord's on Monday night where Labour peers

:11:12. > :11:14.have already indicated they won't block it again.

:11:15. > :11:17.It means that the Brexit bill would become law and Theresa May

:11:18. > :11:21.would be free to trigger Article 50 within days.

:11:22. > :11:23.Her own deadline was the end of this month.

:11:24. > :11:30.But one minister told me there were advantages to doing it early.

:11:31. > :11:33.We're joined now from Nottingham by the Conservative MP Anna Soubry.

:11:34. > :11:35.She's previously voted against the government on the question

:11:36. > :11:42.of whether Parliament should have a final say over the EU deal.

:11:43. > :11:48.Anna Soubry, I think it was clear this morning from David Davies that

:11:49. > :11:51.what he means by meaningful vote is not what you mean by a meaningful

:11:52. > :11:56.vote. He thinks the choice for Parliament would be to either vote

:11:57. > :11:59.for the deal and if Parliament doesn't, we leave on World Trade

:12:00. > :12:06.Organisation rules, on a bare-bones structure. In the end, will he

:12:07. > :12:10.accept that in the Commons tomorrow? No, because my problem and I don't

:12:11. > :12:14.think it is a problem, but my problem, the government's problem is

:12:15. > :12:18.that what I want is then to answer this question. What happens in the

:12:19. > :12:22.event of their not being any deal? David Davies made it very clear that

:12:23. > :12:27.in the event of there being no deal, Parliament would have no say. It

:12:28. > :12:30.means through your elected representatives, the people of this

:12:31. > :12:35.country would have no say on what happens if the government doesn't

:12:36. > :12:38.get a deal. I think the request that Parliament should have a say on

:12:39. > :12:42.Parliamentary sovereignty, is perfectly reasonable. That is what I

:12:43. > :12:49.want David to say. If he says that, I won't be rebelling. If he does...

:12:50. > :12:54.They have refused to say that. Sorry. If he continues to say what

:12:55. > :13:00.he said the BBC this morning, which means that the vote will be either

:13:01. > :13:06.to accept the as negotiated or to leave on WTO rules, will you rebel

:13:07. > :13:10.on that question but no, no, sorry, if there's a deal, Parliament will

:13:11. > :13:14.have a say. So that's fine. And we will see what the deal is and we

:13:15. > :13:18.will look at the options two years down the road. When who knows

:13:19. > :13:22.what'll happen in our economy and world economy. That is one matter

:13:23. > :13:25.which I am content on. The Prime Minister, a woman of her word has

:13:26. > :13:32.said that in the event of a deal, Parliament will vote on any deal. I

:13:33. > :13:36.don't difficulty. To clarify, I will come onto that. These are important

:13:37. > :13:39.matters. I want to clarify, not argue with you. You are content that

:13:40. > :13:43.if there is a deal, we will come under no deal in a second, but if

:13:44. > :13:50.there is a deal, you are content with the choice of being able to

:13:51. > :13:52.vote for that deal or leaving on WTO terms? No, you're speculating as to

:13:53. > :13:58.what might happen in two years' time. What the options might be.

:13:59. > :14:01.Personally I find it inconceivable that the government will come back

:14:02. > :14:05.with a rubbish deal. They will either come back with a good deal,

:14:06. > :14:09.which I won't have a problem with or they will come back with no deal. To

:14:10. > :14:13.speculate about coming back with a deal, there is a variety of options.

:14:14. > :14:17.I understand that that is what the Lord amendments are about. They are

:14:18. > :14:24.about a vote at the end of the process. Do forgive me, the Lords

:14:25. > :14:27.amendment is not the same that I've voted for in Parliament. What we

:14:28. > :14:30.call the Chris Leslie amendment, which was talking about whatever the

:14:31. > :14:32.agreement is, whatever happens at the end of the negotiations,

:14:33. > :14:36.Parliament will have a vote. Parliament will have a say. The

:14:37. > :14:41.Lords amendment is a bit more technical. It is the principle of no

:14:42. > :14:46.deal that is agitating us. Let's clarify on this. They are

:14:47. > :14:50.complicated matters. What do you want the government to say? What do

:14:51. > :14:54.you want David Davis to say tomorrow on what should the Parliamentary

:14:55. > :14:59.process should be if there is no deal? Quite. I want a commitment

:15:00. > :15:02.from him that in the event of no deal, it will come into Parliament

:15:03. > :15:10.and Parliament will determine what happens next. It could be that in

:15:11. > :15:13.the event of no deal, the best thing is for us to jump off the cliff into

:15:14. > :15:17.WTO tariff is. I find it unlikely but that might be the reality. There

:15:18. > :15:22.might be other alternatives. Most importantly, including saying to the

:15:23. > :15:24.government, go back, carry on. The question that everybody has to ask

:15:25. > :15:35.is, why won't the government give My fear is what this is about is

:15:36. > :15:40.asked deliberately, not the Prime Minister, but others deliberately

:15:41. > :15:45.ensuring we have no deal and no deal pretty soon and in that event, we

:15:46. > :15:49.jumped off the cliff onto WTO tariffs and nobody in this country

:15:50. > :15:56.and the people of this country do not have a say. My constituents did

:15:57. > :16:00.not vote for hard Brexit. You do not want the government to

:16:01. > :16:06.have the ability if there is no deal to automatically fall back on the

:16:07. > :16:10.WTO rules? Quite. It is as simple as that. We are now speculating about

:16:11. > :16:17.what will happen in two years. I want to find out what happens

:16:18. > :16:21.tomorrow. What will you do if you don't get that assurance? I will

:16:22. > :16:26.either abstain, or I will vote to keep this amendment within the Bill.

:16:27. > :16:30.I will either vote against my government, which I do not do

:16:31. > :16:34.likely, I have never voted against my government until the Chris Leslie

:16:35. > :16:38.clause when the Bill was going through, or I will abstain, which

:16:39. > :16:41.has pretty much the same effect because it comes into the Commons

:16:42. > :16:47.with both amendments so you have positively to vote to take the map.

:16:48. > :16:53.Can you give us an idea of how many like-minded conservative colleagues

:16:54. > :16:59.there are. I genuinely do not know. You must talk to each other. I do

:17:00. > :17:06.not talk to every member of my party. You know people who are

:17:07. > :17:10.like-minded. I do. I am not doing numbers games. I know you want that

:17:11. > :17:16.but I genuinely do not know the figure. I think this is an

:17:17. > :17:22.uncomfortable truth. People have to understand what has happened in our

:17:23. > :17:26.country, two particular newspapers, creating an atmosphere and setting

:17:27. > :17:28.an agenda and I think many people are rather concerned, some

:17:29. > :17:35.frightened, to put their head over the parapet. There are many millions

:17:36. > :17:40.of people who feel totally excluded from this process. Many of them

:17:41. > :17:43.voted to remain. And they have lost their voice. We have covered the

:17:44. > :17:44.ground I wanted to. We're joined now by the Ukip MEP

:17:45. > :17:57.and former leader Nigel Farage. Article 50 triggered, we are leaving

:17:58. > :18:01.the EU, the single market and the customs union. What is left you to

:18:02. > :18:05.complain about? All of that will happen and hopefully we will get the

:18:06. > :18:09.triggered this week which is good news. What worries me a little I'm

:18:10. > :18:13.not sure the government recognises how strong their handers. At the

:18:14. > :18:17.summit in Brussels, the word in the corridors is that we are prepared to

:18:18. > :18:21.give away fishing waters as a bargaining chip and the worry is

:18:22. > :18:26.what deal we get. Are we leaving, yes I am pleased about that. You are

:18:27. > :18:31.under relevant voice in the deal because the deal will be voted on in

:18:32. > :18:35.Parliament and you have one MP. You are missing the point, the real vote

:18:36. > :18:39.in parliament is not in London but Strasbourg. This is perhaps the

:18:40. > :18:43.biggest obstacle the British Government faces. Not what happens

:18:44. > :18:49.in the Commons that the end of the two years, the European Parliament

:18:50. > :18:53.could veto the deal. What that means is people need to adopt a different

:18:54. > :18:56.approach. We do not need to be lobbying in the corridors of

:18:57. > :19:02.Brussels to get a good deal, we need is a country to be out there talking

:19:03. > :19:06.to the German car workers and Belgian chocolate makers, putting as

:19:07. > :19:09.much pressure as we can on politicians from across Europe to

:19:10. > :19:14.come to a sensible arrangement. It is in their interests more than

:19:15. > :19:22.ours. In what way is the vision of Brexit set out by David Davis any

:19:23. > :19:25.different from your own? I am delighted there are people now

:19:26. > :19:33.adopting the position I argued for many years. Good. But now... Like

:19:34. > :19:39.Douglas Carswell, he said he found David Davis' performers this morning

:19:40. > :19:43.reassuring. It is. And just as when Theresa May was Home Secretary every

:19:44. > :19:47.performance she gave was hugely reassuring. She was seen to be a

:19:48. > :19:53.heroine after her conference speeches and then did not deliver. I

:19:54. > :19:59.am concerned that even before we start we are making concessions. You

:20:00. > :20:03.described in the EU's divorce bill demands, 60 billion euros is floated

:20:04. > :20:10.around. You said it is laughable and I understand that. Do you maintain

:20:11. > :20:18.that we will not have to pay a penny to leave? It is nine months since we

:20:19. > :20:23.voted exit and assuming the trigger of Article 50, we would have paid 30

:20:24. > :20:27.billion in since we had a vote. We are still members. But honestly, I

:20:28. > :20:32.do not think there is an appetite for us to pay a massive divorce

:20:33. > :20:39.Bill. There are assets also. Not a penny? There will be some ongoing

:20:40. > :20:45.commitments, but the numbers talked about our 50, ?60 billion, they are

:20:46. > :20:50.frankly laughable. I am trying to find out if you are prepared to

:20:51. > :20:55.accept some kind of exit cost, it may be nowhere near 60 billion. We

:20:56. > :20:58.have to do a net agreement, the government briefed about our share

:20:59. > :21:05.of the European Union investment bank. Would you accept a

:21:06. > :21:10.transitional arrangement, deal, five, ten billion, as part of the

:21:11. > :21:15.divorce settlement? We are painted net ?30 million every single day at

:21:16. > :21:19.the moment, ?10 billion plus every year. That is just our contribution.

:21:20. > :21:26.We are going to make a massive saving on this. What do you make of

:21:27. > :21:31.what Anna Soubry said, that if there is no deal, and it is being talked

:21:32. > :21:35.about more. Maybe the government managing expectations. There is an

:21:36. > :21:40.expectation we will have a deal, but if there is no deal, that the

:21:41. > :21:46.government cannot just go to WTO rules, but it has to have a vote in

:21:47. > :21:48.parliament? By the time we get to that there will be a general

:21:49. > :21:54.election coming down the tracks and I suspect that if at the end of the

:21:55. > :21:59.two-year process there is no deal and by the way, no deal is a lot

:22:00. > :22:03.better for the nation than where we currently are, because we freed of

:22:04. > :22:07.regulations and able to make our own deals in the world. I think what

:22:08. > :22:14.would happen, and if Parliament said it did not back, at the end of the

:22:15. > :22:20.negotiation a general election would happen quickly. According to reports

:22:21. > :22:26.this morning, one of your most senior aides has passed a dossier to

:22:27. > :22:30.police claiming Tories committed electoral fraud in Thanet South, the

:22:31. > :22:35.seat contested in the election. What evidence to you have? I read that in

:22:36. > :22:39.the newspapers as you have. I am not going to comment on it. Will you not

:22:40. > :22:46.aware of the contents of the dossier? I am not aware of the

:22:47. > :22:51.dossier. He was your election strategists. I am dubious as to

:22:52. > :22:57.whether this dossier exists at all. Perhaps the newspapers have got this

:22:58. > :23:05.wrong. Concerns about the downloading of data the took place

:23:06. > :23:11.in that constituency, there are. Allegedly, he has refuted it, was it

:23:12. > :23:17.done by your MP to give information to the Tories, do you have evidence

:23:18. > :23:24.about? We have evidence Mr Carswell downloaded information, we have no

:23:25. > :23:28.evidence what he did with it. It is not just your aide who has been

:23:29. > :23:34.making allegations against the Conservatives in Thanet South and

:23:35. > :23:41.other seats, if the evidence was to be substantial, and if it was to

:23:42. > :23:45.result in another by-election being called an Thanet South had to be

:23:46. > :23:50.fought again, would you be the Ukip candidate? I probably would. You

:23:51. > :23:56.probably would? Yes. Just probably? Just probably. It would be your

:23:57. > :23:59.eighth attempt. Winning seats in parliament under first past the post

:24:00. > :24:02.is not the only way to change politics in Britain and I would like

:24:03. > :24:08.to think I proved that. Let's go back to Anna Soubry. The implication

:24:09. > :24:12.of what we were saying on the panel at the start of the show and what

:24:13. > :24:18.Nigel Farage was saying there would be that if at the end of the process

:24:19. > :24:22.whatever the vote, if the government were to lose it, it would provoke a

:24:23. > :24:27.general election properly. I think that would be right. Let's get real.

:24:28. > :24:30.The government is not going to come to Parliament with anything other

:24:31. > :24:39.than something it believes is a good deal and if it rejected it, would be

:24:40. > :24:42.unlikely, there would be a de facto vote of no confidence and it would

:24:43. > :24:48.be within the fixed term Parliaments act and that be it. The problem is,

:24:49. > :24:53.more likely, because of the story put up about the 50 billion, 60

:24:54. > :24:57.billion and you look at the way things are flagged up that both the

:24:58. > :25:01.Prime Minister and Boris Johnson saying, we should be asking them for

:25:02. > :25:06.money back, I think the big fear and the fear I have is we will be

:25:07. > :25:12.crashing out in six months. You think we could leave as quickly as

:25:13. > :25:18.six months. Explain that. I think they will stoke up the demand from

:25:19. > :25:22.the EU for 50, 60 billion back and my real concern is that within six

:25:23. > :25:27.months, where we're not making much progress, maybe nine months, and

:25:28. > :25:31.people are getting increasingly fed up with the EU because they are told

:25:32. > :25:35.it wants unreasonable demands, and then the crash. I think what is

:25:36. > :25:39.happening is the government is putting in place scaffolding at the

:25:40. > :25:45.bottom of the cliff to break our fall when we come to fall off that

:25:46. > :25:50.cliff and I think many in government are preparing not for a two-year

:25:51. > :25:55.process, but six, to nine months, off the cliff, out we go. That is my

:25:56. > :26:00.fear. That is interesting. I have not heard that express before by

:26:01. > :26:07.someone in your position. I suspect you have made Nigel Farage's date.

:26:08. > :26:13.It is a lovely thought. I would say to Anna Soubry she is out of date

:26:14. > :26:16.with this. 40 years ago there was a good argument for joining the common

:26:17. > :26:21.market because tariffs around the world was so high. That has changed

:26:22. > :26:25.with the World Trade Organisation. We are leaving the EU and rejoining

:26:26. > :26:34.a great big world and it is exciting. She was giving an

:26:35. > :26:35.interesting perspective on what could happen in nine months rather

:26:36. > :26:39.than two years. I thank you both. It was Philip Hammond's first

:26:40. > :26:41.budget on Wednesday - billed as a steady-as-she-goes

:26:42. > :26:48.affair, but turned out to cause uproar after the Chancellor appeared

:26:49. > :26:50.to contradict a Tory manifesto commitment with an increase

:26:51. > :26:52.in national insurance contributions. The aim was to address what some see

:26:53. > :27:01.as an imbalance in the tax system, where employees pay

:27:02. > :27:02.more National Insurance The controversy centres

:27:03. > :27:06.on increasing the so-called class 4 rate for the self-employed who make

:27:07. > :27:09.a profit of more than ?8,060 a year. It will go up in stages

:27:10. > :27:15.from 9% to 11% in 2019. The changes mean that over one

:27:16. > :27:19.and a half million will pay on average ?240 a year

:27:20. > :27:24.more in contributions. Some Conservative MPs were unhappy,

:27:25. > :27:30.with even the Wales Minister saying: "I will apologise to every

:27:31. > :27:32.voter in Wales that read the Conservative manifesto

:27:33. > :27:34.in the 2015 election." The Sun labelled Philip

:27:35. > :27:39.Hammond "spite van man". The Daily Mail called the budget

:27:40. > :27:42."no laughing matter". By Thursday, Theresa May

:27:43. > :27:45.said the government One of the first things I did

:27:46. > :27:51.as Prime Minister was to commission Matthew Taylor to review the rights

:27:52. > :27:55.and protections that were available to self-employed workers

:27:56. > :27:58.and whether they should be enhanced. People will be able to look

:27:59. > :28:00.at the government paper when we produce it, showing

:28:01. > :28:03.all our changes, and take And, of course, the Chancellor will

:28:04. > :28:08.be speaking, as will his ministers, to MPs, businesspeople and others

:28:09. > :28:12.to listen to the concerns. Well, the man you heard mentioned

:28:13. > :28:14.there, Matthew Taylor, has the job of producing

:28:15. > :28:28.a report into the future Welcome. The Chancellor has decided

:28:29. > :28:32.the self-employed should pay almost the same in National Insurance, not

:28:33. > :28:37.the same but almost, as the employed will stop what is left of your

:28:38. > :28:40.commission? The commission has a broader frame of reference and we

:28:41. > :28:47.are interested in the quality of work in the economy at the heart of

:28:48. > :28:52.what I hope will be proposing is a set of shifts that will improve the

:28:53. > :28:56.quality of that work so we have an economy where all work is fair and

:28:57. > :28:59.decent and all jobs give people scope for development and

:29:00. > :29:07.fulfilment. The issue of taxes a small part. You will cover that? We

:29:08. > :29:10.will, because the tax system and employment regulation system drive

:29:11. > :29:16.particular behaviours in our labour market. You approve I think of the

:29:17. > :29:21.general direction of this policy of raising National Insurance on the

:29:22. > :29:26.self-employed. Taxing them in return perhaps for more state benefits. Why

:29:27. > :29:31.are so many others on the left against it from Tim Farron to John

:29:32. > :29:35.McDonnell? Tax rises are unpopular and it is the role of the opposition

:29:36. > :29:39.parties to make capital from unpopular tax rises. I think as tax

:29:40. > :29:43.rises go this is broadly progressive. There are self-employed

:29:44. > :29:48.people on low incomes and they will be better off. It is economic league

:29:49. > :29:51.rational because the reason for the difference in National Insurance --

:29:52. > :29:56.economically. It was to do with state entitlements. The government

:29:57. > :30:02.is consulting about paid parental leave. A series of governments have

:30:03. > :30:07.not been good about thinking about medium sustainability of the tax

:30:08. > :30:11.base. Self-employment is growing. But it is eroding the tax base. It

:30:12. > :30:18.is important to address those issues. A number of think tanks have

:30:19. > :30:23.said this is a progressive move. Yet, a number of left-wing

:30:24. > :30:28.politicians have been against it. And a number of Tories have said

:30:29. > :30:32.this is a progressive move and not a Tory government move, the balance of

:30:33. > :30:37.you will pay more tax, but you will get more state benefits is not a

:30:38. > :30:41.Tory approach to things. That a Tory approach will be you will pay less

:30:42. > :30:44.tax but entitled to fewer benefits as well.

:30:45. > :30:53.I preferred in and policies to politics -- I prefer policies. When

:30:54. > :30:57.people look at the policy and when they look the fact that there is no

:30:58. > :31:00.real historical basis for that big national insurance differential,

:31:01. > :31:04.they see it is a sensible policy. I don't have to deal with the

:31:05. > :31:08.politics. There has been a huge growth in self-employment from the

:31:09. > :31:09.turn of the millennium. It's been strongest amongst older workers,

:31:10. > :31:17.women part-timers. Do you have any idea, do you have

:31:18. > :31:22.the data in your commission that could tell us how many are taking

:31:23. > :31:26.self-employment because they like the flexibility and they like the

:31:27. > :31:31.tax advantages that come with it, too, or they are being forced into

:31:32. > :31:35.it by employers who don't want the extra costs of employment? Do we

:31:36. > :31:42.know the difference? We do, broadly. Most surveys on self-employment and

:31:43. > :31:44.flexible forms of employment suggest about two thirds to three quarters

:31:45. > :31:49.enjoy it, they like the flexibility, they like the autonomy and about a

:31:50. > :31:53.third to one quarter are less happy. That tends to be because they would

:31:54. > :31:56.like to have a full-time permanent job. It is not necessary that they

:31:57. > :32:00.don't enjoy what they are doing, they would like to do other things.

:32:01. > :32:05.And some of the protections that come with it? Yes. There are some

:32:06. > :32:08.people who are forced into southern employees by high-risk but also some

:32:09. > :32:13.people feel like they can't get a proper job as it were. --

:32:14. > :32:18.self-employment by people who hire them. It is on the narrow matter of

:32:19. > :32:22.tax revenues but if you are employed on ?32,000 the state will take over

:32:23. > :32:27.?6,000 in national insurance contributions, that is quite chunky.

:32:28. > :32:31.If you are self-employed it is ?2300. But the big difference

:32:32. > :32:37.between those figures isn't what the employee is paying, it's the

:32:38. > :32:42.employer's contributions up to almost 14%, and cupped for as much

:32:43. > :32:50.as you are paid. What do you do about employers' contributions for

:32:51. > :32:54.the self employed? -- it is uncapped for as much. What I recommend is

:32:55. > :32:59.that we should probably move from taxing employment to taxing labour.

:33:00. > :33:03.We should probably have a more level playing field so it doesn't really

:33:04. > :33:07.matter... Explained that I thought it was the same thing. If you are a

:33:08. > :33:11.self-employed gardener, you are a different tax regime to a gardener

:33:12. > :33:19.who works for a gardening firm. On the individual side and on the firm

:33:20. > :33:22.side. As we see new business models, so-called gig working, partly with

:33:23. > :33:28.technology, we need a more level playing field saying that we're

:33:29. > :33:32.taxing people's work, not the form in which they deliver that. That is

:33:33. > :33:34.part of the reason we have seen the growth of particular business

:33:35. > :33:39.models. They are innovative and creative and partly driven by the

:33:40. > :33:44.fact that if you can describe yourself as self-employed there are

:33:45. > :33:46.tax advantages. Coming out in June? Will you come back and talk to us?

:33:47. > :33:47.Yes. We say goodbye to viewers

:33:48. > :33:52.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,

:33:53. > :33:57.we'll be talking to the former Tory MP who was the root

:33:58. > :34:11.of Donald Trump's allegation We will be putting that and other

:34:12. > :34:32.questions that our guests today, Daniel Hannan, MEP

:34:33. > :34:34.for the Conservatives, Lord Steve Bassam,

:34:35. > :34:35.Labour's Chief Whip in the Lords, and to discuss this

:34:36. > :34:39.week's budget we are also joined by Paul Carter, Conservative leader

:34:40. > :34:41.of Kent County Council. If so, are you happy to pay your

:34:42. > :34:51.fair share when it comes to The Chancellor says your

:34:52. > :34:53.contributions will go up from next year but Philip Hammond

:34:54. > :34:57.has had to defend his plans from critics on his own

:34:58. > :34:59.side of the house. Daniel Hannan, do you support

:35:00. > :35:01.the increase in national insurance contributions suggested

:35:02. > :35:02.for the millions of self-employed? The Government has already said this

:35:03. > :35:06.will be voted on later and I think The mood music is they are

:35:07. > :35:09.looking at this again and they have been

:35:10. > :35:13.struck by the extent of the opposition and as

:35:14. > :35:16.We want people to be self-employed and

:35:17. > :35:20.I will take this opportunity to say to everyone

:35:21. > :35:21.watching that has started a

:35:22. > :35:24.Politicians are very good at saying thanks

:35:25. > :35:25.to doctors and nurses and

:35:26. > :35:28.teachers, and quite right, but we should also find time to say

:35:29. > :35:31.thank you to the people who are generating

:35:32. > :35:34.the revenue that pay for the doctors and the teachers and the soldiers

:35:35. > :35:38.There is an issue, there is a disparity between self-employed

:35:39. > :35:40.and employed people, both NICs can now pay

:35:41. > :35:47.loophole that some companies are effectively reclassifying their

:35:48. > :35:49.workers as self-employed in order to escape.

:35:50. > :35:52.So that is something that should be addressed and this is not

:35:53. > :35:54.something Phillip Hammond adjusted for the fun

:35:55. > :35:59.probably ways of doing it that are more commensurate

:36:00. > :36:08.You mention the opposition to this and I

:36:09. > :36:11.will put to Steve Bassam, once again, it looks like the effect of

:36:12. > :36:13.opposition here does not, from the Labour

:36:14. > :36:14.front bench but comes from

:36:15. > :36:19.I think Labour members in parliament, both

:36:20. > :36:22.Lords and Commons, have made a lot of noise about this, John McDonnell

:36:23. > :36:24.has been very clear and he was quite quick

:36:25. > :36:26.straight out of the blocks on

:36:27. > :36:30.But that has been Kent MPs like Thomas Tugendhat and Craig

:36:31. > :36:33.Mackinlay who have a really, as Conservative backbenchers, who have

:36:34. > :36:35.That's because of the arithmetic in the

:36:36. > :36:39.Daniel would say it is quite close and there are more than

:36:40. > :36:43.enough Tory MPs who, like us, think this is a rather silly idea.

:36:44. > :36:45.I agree there are some longer term anomalies

:36:46. > :36:48.but I do not think this is the way to deal with it.

:36:49. > :36:50.This is one of the quickest U-turns I've seen in

:36:51. > :37:03.You are a businessman as well as a Conservative politician.

:37:04. > :37:05.Increases in those national insurance increases, what

:37:06. > :37:07.do you see the messages to entrepreneurs?

:37:08. > :37:09.Well, as somebody who has worked in the construction

:37:10. > :37:11.industry all my life and been dependent

:37:12. > :37:14.plumbers, electricians, all strivers, all running their own

:37:15. > :37:16.businesses, I think it is regrettable they have indicated that

:37:17. > :37:18.money will come from increasing the national

:37:19. > :37:19.insurance contributions on

:37:20. > :37:20.those strivers, those of self-employed people.

:37:21. > :37:25.But they more than make up now, or will do in the

:37:26. > :37:28.future, with the full pension, will more than make up for an extra

:37:29. > :37:30.contributions they pay in national insurance.

:37:31. > :37:31.They will still be ahead of the curve.

:37:32. > :37:34.I think it is the message it sends out to people

:37:35. > :37:36.wanting to set up their own businesses.

:37:37. > :37:37.The one-man bands may grow into bigger businesses.

:37:38. > :37:40.What is wrong with the message that you will

:37:41. > :37:44.It is a big, brave, bold step and a difficult world out there,

:37:45. > :37:46.running your own small business and I think

:37:47. > :37:49.we need to encourage and stimulate as many people to be self-reliant,

:37:50. > :37:51.strivers, developing and building their own business and they should

:37:52. > :37:55.Let's go back to Daniel Hannan on, you made

:37:56. > :37:58.the point that Theresa May says the proposed tax rises will not be

:37:59. > :38:00.voted on until the autumn, and crucially,

:38:01. > :38:02.after proposals for extra rights for those

:38:03. > :38:03.self-employed workers are

:38:04. > :38:06.How far should those extra rights go in order for these

:38:07. > :38:08.additional contributions to be deemed as fair?

:38:09. > :38:11.Would you say for holiday pay, sick pay, maternity and

:38:12. > :38:13.I would actually equalise in the opposite direction

:38:14. > :38:16.and bring down national insurance for everybody else, rather than

:38:17. > :38:19.bringing up national insurance for the self-employed.

:38:20. > :38:23.But you could say the system is working.

:38:24. > :38:27.Craig Mackinlay and Thomas Tugendhat made

:38:28. > :38:33.I think this was generally an excellent budget.

:38:34. > :38:35.It had one glitch in it, that is being addressed

:38:36. > :38:38.precisely because Parliament is doing its job and representing the

:38:39. > :38:41.people who elected them and I think we can say the system is doing

:38:42. > :38:46.OK, so is the overall lesson here for

:38:47. > :38:49.politicians, and any of you can answer this one, let's go to Steve

:38:50. > :38:52.The IFS, I quote the IFS, "Stop making silly manifesto

:38:53. > :38:57.Well, I think they're right to draw attention to that.

:38:58. > :38:59.I think this budget was a very quiet budget and

:39:00. > :39:01.for me it was more what it didn't do.

:39:02. > :39:04.It did not put more money to the health service.

:39:05. > :39:08.It made some moves towards social care, it has not

:39:09. > :39:10.addressed long-term inequalities and pay and all those sorts

:39:11. > :39:13.of issues, and I do think that Philip Hammond

:39:14. > :39:17.is trying to keep a lid on a lot of the problems the Tory Government

:39:18. > :39:18.have got longer term, going towards Brexit.

:39:19. > :39:22.He is paying off debt, stimulating the economy.

:39:23. > :39:24.He's nowhere near paying off the debt.

:39:25. > :39:30.Given necessarily limited resources I think he has got

:39:31. > :39:35.So you're apart was saying, or many members of

:39:36. > :39:37.your party, you included, probably, was saying during Brexit referendum

:39:38. > :39:41.run up there was going to be more money available because we were

:39:42. > :39:44.I do not see any of that going towards public

:39:45. > :39:48.Paul over there have been working incredibly hard to get his

:39:49. > :39:50.There is extra money in education and skills.

:39:51. > :39:54.Steve Bassam I'm going to take you where you want to

:39:55. > :39:57.do, we're going to move from the tax to be

:39:58. > :39:58.spend, because that is, as

:39:59. > :40:01.Steve Bassam suggested, an extra ?2 billion on its way

:40:02. > :40:03.to local councils to pay for the care of

:40:04. > :40:07.Paul Carter, immediately after the budget

:40:08. > :40:09.you expressed some concern about whether this ?2 billion

:40:10. > :40:16.Turns out Kent is getting the biggest portion

:40:17. > :40:18.here, an extra ?52 million over the next three years.

:40:19. > :40:22.First of all, we are delighted we have got the additional

:40:23. > :40:26.Everybody knows social care providers have been under enormous

:40:27. > :40:31.pressure in the last three years as the ageing population grows,

:40:32. > :40:36.The distribution method is through the

:40:37. > :40:41.better care fund, it is not ideal or perfect, central Government is

:40:42. > :40:43.having a fundamental review of how local

:40:44. > :40:45.Government is funded which

:40:46. > :40:51.I think the counties will do better from that

:40:52. > :41:03.establish what every local authority needs as a baseline to deliver core

:41:04. > :41:07.Let's look and little homes here because your own head of

:41:08. > :41:08.financial strategy David Shipton says, This

:41:09. > :41:10.week's announcement dwarfs what

:41:11. > :41:13.we previously have for social care and I see you for your own figures

:41:14. > :41:16.you already had earmarked ?3 million extra to spend this year and now it

:41:17. > :41:21.Well, they are large sums of money and I think we

:41:22. > :41:23.will get some direction from central Government

:41:24. > :41:24.as to where they want to

:41:25. > :41:28.The comments he made about no more money for the health

:41:29. > :41:30.service, I think it was Simon Stephens

:41:31. > :41:31.who indicated if there is

:41:32. > :41:45.more money around put it in social care for the inextricable links

:41:46. > :41:46.between social care provision and health

:41:47. > :41:49.community care and, most importantly, getting patients out of

:41:50. > :41:53.hospital in a timely way and the help and support social care can

:41:54. > :41:56.We are doing that in Kent already through enablement services

:41:57. > :41:59.for all patients to get them out of hospital and back

:42:00. > :42:01.in their own home as a universal service, not the

:42:02. > :42:07.The better care fund, which you mentioned, it's

:42:08. > :42:11.interesting and the reason I mention it is because I want to know if you

:42:12. > :42:13.know, and we'll ask other guests, too, where the money

:42:14. > :42:20.The better care fund which up until now has been an extra source

:42:21. > :42:23.of revenue for councils to spend on adult social care turned out

:42:24. > :42:25.to be pulling existing money from the NHS

:42:26. > :42:28.and from you, the local authorities, you are clear you know where this

:42:29. > :42:31.There was better care fund mark one and better

:42:32. > :42:34.Slightly losing the will to live, but yeah.

:42:35. > :42:38.This additional money will be accountable

:42:39. > :42:40.from Kent County Council with its responsibilities to

:42:41. > :42:47.It is new money and the conditions as to how that is spent I imagine

:42:48. > :42:49.we'll be coming to us pretty shortly and it

:42:50. > :42:50.will follow the pattern, I

:42:51. > :42:55.We need to help and support care markets

:42:56. > :42:58.to grow and sustain the

:42:59. > :43:01.provisions so we have got more enablement beds in residential care

:43:02. > :43:05.homes, we support domiciliary care to a greater extent.

:43:06. > :43:11.Let's not make exactly the same points again

:43:12. > :43:13.but let's bring our other guests in about the future.

:43:14. > :43:15.Daniel Hannan, this is only a three-year

:43:16. > :43:18.funding boost and in Kent alone by 2026 the number of people over 65

:43:19. > :43:20.is expected to increase by another 43%.

:43:21. > :43:23.It is not going to address the longer term issues, is it?

:43:24. > :43:25.In an necessarily limited budget we have

:43:26. > :43:28.prioritised it for exactly the reason you give.

:43:29. > :43:31.In a sense it is a very good problem to have, we're all

:43:32. > :43:35.living longer, we are living longer, healthier lives, but this does

:43:36. > :43:38.necessitate more care at the end of our lives

:43:39. > :43:42.and I think the number of

:43:43. > :43:44.over 75s will double in the next ten years,

:43:45. > :43:47.which is a very significant shift and a very welcome shift, as a

:43:48. > :43:53.But my question was about the future.

:43:54. > :43:56.We had over the past 20 years, and now we know another green

:43:57. > :43:58.paper, the total comes to 12, white papers, Green papers, major

:43:59. > :44:03.consultations on looking after our elderly people and we have not

:44:04. > :44:10.mentiond the disabled adults as well.

:44:11. > :44:13.Is any Government ever going to grasp the nettle and do something

:44:14. > :44:16.This is a huge sum of money which is front-loaded

:44:17. > :44:18.so half of it is being spent immediately.

:44:19. > :44:28.It is a huge sum of money which is going to...

:44:29. > :44:29.We just heard from Paul the difference

:44:30. > :44:32.between what was previously been budgeted and what is now available.

:44:33. > :44:34.Everyone in the industry is calling it a sticking plaster.

:44:35. > :44:36.That is exactly the phrase I was looking

:44:37. > :44:44.Your own MPs think it is a sticking plaster.

:44:45. > :44:47.They see it as a short-term solution and it

:44:48. > :44:49.does not address the wider issues of health care.

:44:50. > :44:53.We are losing doctors, nurses, we will have acute pressures

:44:54. > :44:57.on our health service because of the migration

:44:58. > :44:59.back to Europe for a lot of skilled labour.

:45:00. > :45:07.Steve Bassam, why didn't Labour address this when the

:45:08. > :45:15.Clearly, we do want to listen to what people have to say, as any

:45:16. > :45:17.sensible Government does, but we pumped

:45:18. > :45:18.a lot more resources into the

:45:19. > :45:21.health service and I think we increase the overall budget by 50%

:45:22. > :45:25.And it has continued to increase every year since.

:45:26. > :45:29.I'm sorry, I don't think the health service feels it has and that is

:45:30. > :45:32.Hang on, it doesn't feel as though it has?

:45:33. > :45:34.I'm sorry, that trumps what is actually

:45:35. > :45:39.Look, the stats are pretty clear on this...

:45:40. > :45:43.The money is not adequate to cover what is actually being...

:45:44. > :45:44.But you accept that has increased

:45:45. > :45:48.I do not think it has increased enough over the year

:45:49. > :45:49.because the predictable pressures of demographics...

:45:50. > :45:52.This is what I mean by you always say it is not enough.

:45:53. > :45:56.I am going to go back to Paul Carter for his last thought on this.

:45:57. > :45:57.You told Caring Kent magazine recently

:45:58. > :45:59.we need new ways of raising additional money

:46:00. > :46:05.The Prime Minister has made it quite clear we need to

:46:06. > :46:07.find new sustainable ways of funding social care.

:46:08. > :46:12.Everybody talks about putting more money into social care, 70% of

:46:13. > :46:14.individuals that need expensive social care interventions in this

:46:15. > :46:17.county have to pay for it themselves.

:46:18. > :46:20.So let's not skirt the issue, what are those new ways?

:46:21. > :46:23.We have got to look at the Dilnot Review,

:46:24. > :46:26.we've got to look at the

:46:27. > :46:32.opportunity of bringing private insurance industry or a state funded

:46:33. > :46:34.scheme, so the unfortunate 30% that need these

:46:35. > :46:36.expensive interventions do not complete the -- deplete all their

:46:37. > :46:42.hard earned wealth they have accumulated over a lifetime but we

:46:43. > :46:51.have got to find, as good Conservatives, a system that helps

:46:52. > :46:53.and supports everyone in the social care sphere

:46:54. > :46:56.30, 40, ?50,000 worth of cost interventions...

:46:57. > :46:58.Sorry, to be very specific, you have also mentioned

:46:59. > :47:05.Is that where you would be to for more revenue?

:47:06. > :47:08.Well, over the last two or three years we have seen the

:47:09. > :47:10.foreign aid budget grow phenomenally and seen budgets to local

:47:11. > :47:11.governments reduced, National Audit Office

:47:12. > :47:17.I am a great supporter of the foreign

:47:18. > :47:21.aid budgets but the growth has been absolutely phenomenal and we have

:47:22. > :47:24.reduced the budget to local Government to help support the most

:47:25. > :47:26.elderly and vulnerable in our communities.

:47:27. > :47:30.Thank you very much indeed for joining us.

:47:31. > :47:31.Paul Carter, leader Kent County Council.

:47:32. > :47:34.Now, who doesn't like a cheeky gin and tonic once in a while?

:47:35. > :47:36.It turned out that gin distilling business is

:47:37. > :47:39.booming here in the south-east, with exports to Europe at

:47:40. > :47:42.But is Brexit going to put that all on ice?

:47:43. > :47:54.This gin made in Brighton is destined for Europe.

:47:55. > :47:57.Incredible citrus and the Juniper coming

:47:58. > :48:02.straight off it and served with a little wedge of orange.

:48:03. > :48:05.Here we have a fantastic Brighton gin, definitely

:48:06. > :48:11.Cathy Cayton, co-founder of Brighton Gin,

:48:12. > :48:14.says that is an unquenchable thirst for the spirit around the world.

:48:15. > :48:17.Three out of every four bottles of gin

:48:18. > :48:25.Britain and the key driver is craft gins made

:48:26. > :48:32.The gin trend has read to recognise and overseas sales and if

:48:33. > :48:34.its popularity continues exports could reach ?0.5 billion

:48:35. > :48:41.It is all happening just as Britain is about to leave the EU.

:48:42. > :48:48.And with 55% of all British gin exported to the European Union

:48:49. > :48:51.producers are concerned about how Brexit will affect EU trade.

:48:52. > :48:55.It is a real British success story and we

:48:56. > :48:59.are really looking to export this year, it is where we would like to

:49:00. > :49:03.get out and shout about our amazing gin and I think there is the

:49:04. > :49:07.uncertainty around what might happen and it is something that could

:49:08. > :49:11.potentially put the handbrake on stuff for us and we really do not

:49:12. > :49:21.A rise in duty of 43p per litre in this week's

:49:22. > :49:24.budget was no tonic for the industry either at the time when leaders say

:49:25. > :49:27.they need more Government commitment ahead had Brexit.

:49:28. > :49:28.Including giving a British gin protected status to stop

:49:29. > :49:34.We really could do with some support.

:49:35. > :49:39.It is not just about low taxation, which we do not currently have, it

:49:40. > :49:44.is about creating a better environment.

:49:45. > :49:46.We have done very well with the British products

:49:47. > :49:49.abroad and that is why we think we need better protection

:49:50. > :49:51.for British gin as it becomes more of an

:49:52. > :49:56.We think there will be a chance to do that as part of the Brexit

:49:57. > :50:03.process when the great repeal bill goes through.

:50:04. > :50:06.But it has to be done quickly or we will lose the advantage.

:50:07. > :50:08.While gin is on the ascent, the region's Kentish ales

:50:09. > :50:10.and sparkling wines are established export

:50:11. > :50:13.products and as the gateway to Europe, the south-east is uniquely

:50:14. > :50:16.Selling goods abroad is crucial to the economy of the south-east.

:50:17. > :50:18.Last year the export market was worth ?40

:50:19. > :50:29.billion, more than any other part of the UK.

:50:30. > :50:31.But if there is one thing that is not good

:50:32. > :50:36.And future trade negotiations will take years.

:50:37. > :50:38.UK Trade Policy Observatory, based at Sussex

:50:39. > :50:40.University, is advising parliament about post-Brexit trade deals.

:50:41. > :50:42.They say exporters could be in for a shock.

:50:43. > :50:44.I think in the very short-term they probably will not

:50:45. > :50:53.It will depend, in part, on whether we have the notorious hard Brexit

:50:54. > :50:58.whether we have a deal in which things are

:50:59. > :50:59.clearly negotiated and a

:51:00. > :51:00.transitional arrangements in which new customs procedures

:51:01. > :51:05.If there is it literally a hard Brexit where the

:51:06. > :51:08.borders turn into international borders overnights, people are going

:51:09. > :51:14.to be an extreme difficulty on that day.

:51:15. > :51:19.The tipple once termed mother's ruin, may be the making of these

:51:20. > :51:24.But can the Government ensure growth and

:51:25. > :51:26.enterprise is not stifled by ponderous trade negotiations brought

:51:27. > :51:42.On Daniel Hannan, Brighton gin want to tap into the lucrative European

:51:43. > :51:50.markets. They feel uncertainty could markets. They feel uncertainty could

:51:51. > :51:56.put a handbrake on growth plans. The timing is not great. They should not

:51:57. > :51:58.feel uncertainty as I have not heard a single European politicians

:51:59. > :52:04.suggest they are planning tariffs or trade barriers after Brexit. Unlike

:52:05. > :52:09.in every other trade negotiation we are starting from a position of zero

:52:10. > :52:14.tariffs and regulations. The inertia bias is working the other way. Where

:52:15. > :52:21.they will have opportunities is not just in Europe but it is in South

:52:22. > :52:26.America and Asia and the Middle East and Africa, all sorts of places

:52:27. > :52:30.where it is a great brand, and some places there are already tariffs and

:52:31. > :52:35.now we have control of our own trade policy we will have the opportunity

:52:36. > :52:40.to reach new markets and those will be the growing markets. There will

:52:41. > :52:44.be consequences for those already exporting if we come out of the

:52:45. > :52:48.customs union, as is widely predicted, that will put burdens on

:52:49. > :52:54.small companies dealing with administrative costs, developed

:52:55. > :52:55.expertise in handling VAT declarations and customs duty

:52:56. > :53:00.differently, and that will have an differently, and that will have an

:53:01. > :53:03.impact on the supply chain. They already do that when they sailed to

:53:04. > :53:11.Australia. But those currently selling to the EU -- selling to

:53:12. > :53:16.Australia. If there are companies just selling to the EU at the more

:53:17. > :53:20.they will find how easy it is. We're not in the 19th century when you

:53:21. > :53:26.have a great customs checks, all of the custom stuff is done online in

:53:27. > :53:35.advance and it is a very simple process. Steve can you see the

:53:36. > :53:46.opportunities? I worry as there was a recent Lords report and Daniel is

:53:47. > :53:53.Brexit idealist... Saw plenty of people. Daniel will only see the

:53:54. > :54:03.upside. The trade industry is right to worry and we want to ensure we

:54:04. > :54:09.have a successful export market for things like Brighton gin. What was

:54:10. > :54:13.has been going on with the question back to Daniel Hannan, a lot of

:54:14. > :54:19.small employers will of you national and the staff, what should they tell

:54:20. > :54:22.them about the state is? Have not heard a single person say they will

:54:23. > :54:28.not maintain their rights for people not maintain their rights for people

:54:29. > :54:31.already in the UK. During the referendum campaign we always made

:54:32. > :54:36.clear that any restrictions on immigration would only apply to

:54:37. > :54:42.future rivals. Even Ukip said the same. But that has not been given

:54:43. > :54:47.no. I do not see how we can say get any more clearly. They do not need

:54:48. > :54:52.to worry. Every day of the week at some stage hard questions are asked

:54:53. > :55:00.of ministers and the Lords and they cannot give the clarity you'd

:55:01. > :55:02.trumpet and that is deeply worrying to the harbour many million you

:55:03. > :55:10.national in our country and they feel very nervous. We're not Burma,

:55:11. > :55:13.for heaven 's sake. I would love to still give people the opportunity to

:55:14. > :55:20.see some of the other news you may have missed here it is, 60 seconds.

:55:21. > :55:22.Conservative MPs have expressed anger after Mid Sussex district

:55:23. > :55:31.councils order to build thousands of extra homes on rural land.

:55:32. > :55:33.It has raised concerns that Ashdown Forest,

:55:34. > :55:36.known as the home of Winnie the Pooh,

:55:37. > :55:39.could bear the brunt of the

:55:40. > :55:42.new development and the council was told by the planning Inspectorate to

:55:43. > :55:44.build almost 4000 more houses in the next 15 years.

:55:45. > :55:49.Everybody accepts the need for more houses but we do not have the

:55:50. > :55:52.infrastructure or the countryside to sustain a level of housing which he

:55:53. > :55:54.It has been revealed the Dartford Crossing,

:55:55. > :55:57.one of the busiest sections of road in the country, was

:55:58. > :56:02.classed by the Government as a rural road until two years ago.

:56:03. > :56:05.Air pollution in the area regularly exceeds the safe limit, and the area

:56:06. > :56:08.error means that these levels of pollution have been routinely

:56:09. > :56:11.And the controversial scheme to sell off parts of the

:56:12. > :56:13.South Downs will not go ahead after residents overwhelmingly voted

:56:14. > :56:16.Eastbourne Borough Council planned to put 3000 acre is

:56:17. > :56:28.up for sale to cope with budget cuts.

:56:29. > :56:34.Also this week Steve Bassam you have been in the news with his story

:56:35. > :56:41.about bringing a Serbian refugees to live in your home. What has the

:56:42. > :56:48.response been -- -- Sirion. It is nearly all been positive. I have

:56:49. > :56:53.learned a lot more about Syrian culture and I understand their

:56:54. > :57:00.problems better. Very nice to have you with us today. That is all we

:57:01. > :57:01.have time for today. Thank you to our guests. Natalie is back next

:57:02. > :57:04.week with Now the government plans for new

:57:05. > :57:19.grammar schools. The Education Secretary

:57:20. > :57:20.Justine Greening was speaking to a conference

:57:21. > :57:22.of headteachers on Friday. They're normally a pretty polite

:57:23. > :57:24.bunch, but they didn't Broadcasters weren't

:57:25. > :57:31.allowed into the speech, but this was captured

:57:32. > :57:36.on a camera phone. And we have to recognise actually

:57:37. > :57:39.for grammars, in terms of disadvantaged children,

:57:40. > :57:42.that they have, they really do help them close

:57:43. > :57:45.the attainment gap. And at the same time

:57:46. > :57:47.we should recognise that ..That parents also want choice

:57:48. > :57:54.for their children and that those schools are often

:57:55. > :58:09.very oversubscribed. I suppose it is a rite of passage

:58:10. > :58:13.for and education secretaries to have this at a head teachers

:58:14. > :58:18.conference book the head are usually more polite. Isn't part of the

:58:19. > :58:24.problem, whether one is for or against the expansion of grammar

:58:25. > :58:27.schools, the government plans are complicated, you cannot sum them up

:58:28. > :58:32.in a sentence. The proof of that is they can still get away with denying

:58:33. > :58:35.they are expanding grammar schools. They will find an alternative

:58:36. > :58:39.formulation because it is not as simple as a brute creation of what

:58:40. > :58:45.we used to know is grammar schools with the absolute cut-off of the 11

:58:46. > :58:49.plus. I am surprised how easy they found it politically. We saw the

:58:50. > :58:54.clip of Justine Greening being jeered a little bit but in the grand

:58:55. > :58:57.scheme, compared to another government trying this idea a decade

:58:58. > :59:02.ago they have got away with it easily and I think what is happening

:59:03. > :59:06.is a perverse consequence of Brexit and the media attention on Brexit,

:59:07. > :59:10.the government of the day can just about get away with slightly more

:59:11. > :59:15.contentious domestic policies on the correct assumption we will be too

:59:16. > :59:19.busy investing our attention in Article 50 and two years of

:59:20. > :59:25.negotiations, WTO terms at everything we have been discussing.

:59:26. > :59:27.I wonder if after grammar schools there will be examples of

:59:28. > :59:32.contentious domestic policies Theresa May can slide in stock

:59:33. > :59:40.because Brexit sucks the life out, takes the attention away. You are a

:59:41. > :59:47.supporter. Broadly. Are you happy with the government approach? They

:59:48. > :59:51.need to have more gumption and stop being apologetic. It is a bazaar

:59:52. > :59:56.area of public policy where we judge the policy on grammar schools based

:59:57. > :00:00.on what it does for children whose parents are unemployed, living on

:00:01. > :00:05.sink estates in Liverpool. It is absurd, we don't judge any other

:00:06. > :00:09.policy like that. It is simple, not contentious, people who are not

:00:10. > :00:13.sure, ask them if they would apply to send their child there, six out

:00:14. > :00:19.of ten said they would. Parents want good schools for their children, we

:00:20. > :00:22.should have appropriate education and they should be straightforward,

:00:23. > :00:26.this is about the future of the economy and we need bright children

:00:27. > :00:32.to get education at the highest level, education for academically

:00:33. > :00:36.bright children. It is supposed to be a signature policy of the Theresa

:00:37. > :00:40.May administration that marks a government different from David

:00:41. > :00:41.Cameron's government who did not go down this road. The signature is

:00:42. > :00:51.pretty blurred, it is hard to read. It is. She is trying to address

:00:52. > :00:55.concerns about those who fail to get into these selective schools and

:00:56. > :00:58.tried to targeted in poorer areas and the rest of it. She will

:00:59. > :01:02.probably come across so many obstacles. It is not clear what form

:01:03. > :01:06.it will take in the end. It is really an example of a signature

:01:07. > :01:09.policy not fully thought through. I think it was one of her first

:01:10. > :01:13.announcements. It was. It surprised everybody. Surprised at the speed

:01:14. > :01:18.and pace at which they were planning to go. Ever since, there have been

:01:19. > :01:23.qualifications and hesitations en route with good cause, in my view. I

:01:24. > :01:27.disagree with Juliet that this is... We all want good schools but if you

:01:28. > :01:31.don't get in there and you end up in a less good school. They already do

:01:32. > :01:35.that. We have selection based on the income of parents getting into a

:01:36. > :01:41.good catchment area, based on the faith of the parents. That becomes

:01:42. > :01:43.very attainable! I might been too shot run christenings for these. --

:01:44. > :01:46.I have been. Now, you may remember this time last

:01:47. > :01:48.week we were talking about the extraordinary claims by US

:01:49. > :01:50.President Donald Trump, on Twitter of course,

:01:51. > :01:53.that Barack Obama had ordered And there was me thinking

:01:54. > :01:56.that wiretaps went out Is it legal for a sitting

:01:57. > :02:01.President to do so, he asked, concluding it was a "new low",

:02:02. > :02:10.and later comparing it to Watergate. Since then, the White House has been

:02:11. > :02:13.pressed to provide evidence for this It hasn't, but it seems it may have

:02:14. > :02:19.initially come from a report on a US website by the former Conservative

:02:20. > :02:22.MP Louise Mensch. She wrote that the FBI had been

:02:23. > :02:25.granted a warrant to intercept communications between Trump's

:02:26. > :02:32.campaign and Russia. Well, Louise Mensch joins

:02:33. > :02:45.us now from New York. Louise, you claimed in early

:02:46. > :02:48.November that the FBI had secured a court warrants to monitor

:02:49. > :02:54.communications between trump Tower in New York at two Russian banks.

:02:55. > :02:55.It's now four months later. Isn't it the case that nobody has proved the

:02:56. > :03:05.existence of this warrant? First of all, forgive me Andrew, one

:03:06. > :03:09.takes 1's life in one's hand when it is you but I have to correct your

:03:10. > :03:13.characterisation of my reporting. It is very important. I did not report

:03:14. > :03:18.that the FBI had a warrant to intercept anything or that Trump

:03:19. > :03:21.tower was any part of it. What I reported was that the FBI obtained a

:03:22. > :03:26.warrant is targeted on all communications between two Russian

:03:27. > :03:33.banks and were, therefore, allowed to examine US persons in the context

:03:34. > :03:36.of their investigation. What the Americans call legally incidental

:03:37. > :03:42.collection. I certainly didn't report that the warrant was able to

:03:43. > :03:46.intercept or that it had location basis, for example Trump tower. I

:03:47. > :03:51.just didn't report that. The reason that matters so much is that I now

:03:52. > :03:56.believe based on the President's reaction, there may well be a

:03:57. > :03:59.wiretap act Trump Tower. If so, Donald Trump has just tweeted out

:04:00. > :04:03.evidence in an ongoing criminal case that neither I nor anybody else

:04:04. > :04:07.reported. He is right about Watergate because he will have

:04:08. > :04:11.committed obstruction of justice directly from his Twitter account.

:04:12. > :04:17.Let me come back as thank you for clarifying. Let me come back to the

:04:18. > :04:22.question. -- and thank you. We have not yet got proof that this warrant

:04:23. > :04:26.exists, do we? No and we are most unlikely to get it because it would

:04:27. > :04:31.be a heinous crime for Donald Trump to reveal its existence. In America

:04:32. > :04:34.they call it a Glomar response. I can neither confirm nor deny. That

:04:35. > :04:39.is what all American officials will have to say legally. If you are

:04:40. > :04:42.looking for proof, you won't get it until and unless a court cases

:04:43. > :04:48.brought. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The BBC validated

:04:49. > :04:52.this two months after me in their reporting by the journalist Paul

:04:53. > :04:55.Wood. The Guardian, they also separately from their own sources

:04:56. > :05:00.validated the existence of the warrant. If you are in America, you

:05:01. > :05:03.would know that CNN and others are reporting that the investigation in

:05:04. > :05:07.ongoing. Let me come onto the wider point. You believe the Trump

:05:08. > :05:11.campaign including the president were complicit with the Russians

:05:12. > :05:15.during the 2016 election campaign to such an extent that Mr Trump should

:05:16. > :05:21.be impeached. What evidence did you have?

:05:22. > :05:27.That is an enormous amount of evidence. You could start with him

:05:28. > :05:29.saying, hey, Russia, if you are listening, please release all the

:05:30. > :05:34.Hillary Clinton's e-mails. That's not evidence. I think it rather is,

:05:35. > :05:38.actually. Especially if you look at some of the evidence that exists on

:05:39. > :05:42.Twitter and elsewhere of people talking directly to his social media

:05:43. > :05:46.manager, Dan should be no and telling him to do that before it

:05:47. > :05:51.happened. There is a bit out there. The BBC itself reported that in

:05:52. > :05:55.April of last year, a six agency task force, not just the FBI, but

:05:56. > :05:59.the Treasury Department, was looking at this. I believe there is an

:06:00. > :06:02.enormous amount of evidence. And then there is the steel dossier

:06:03. > :06:10.which was included in an official report of the US intelligence

:06:11. > :06:13.committee. You've also ... Just to be clear, we don't have hard

:06:14. > :06:17.evidence yet whether this warrant exists. It may or may not. There is

:06:18. > :06:21.doubt about... There are claims about whether there is evidence

:06:22. > :06:26.about Mr Trump and the Russians. That is another matter. You claimed

:06:27. > :06:33.that President Putin had Andrew Breitbart murdered to pave the way

:06:34. > :06:37.for Steve Bannon to play a key role in the Trump administration. I

:06:38. > :06:41.haven't. You said that Steve Bannon is behind bomb threats to Jewish

:06:42. > :06:46.community centres. Aren't you in danger of just peddling wild

:06:47. > :06:50.conspiracy theories? No. Festival, I haven't. No matter how many times

:06:51. > :06:54.people say this, it's not going to be true -- first of all. I said in

:06:55. > :06:58.twitter I believe that to be the case about the murder of Andrew

:06:59. > :07:04.Breitbart. You believe President Putin murdered him. I didn't! You

:07:05. > :07:08.said I reported it, but I believed it. You put it on twitter that you

:07:09. > :07:14.believed it but you don't have a shred of evidence. I do. Indeed, I

:07:15. > :07:18.know made assertions. What is the evidence that Mr Putin murdered

:07:19. > :07:24.Andrew Breitbart? I said I believe it. You may believe there are

:07:25. > :07:28.fairies at the bottom of your garden, it doesn't make it true. I

:07:29. > :07:36.may indeed. And if I say so, that's my belief. If I say I am reporting,

:07:37. > :07:43.as I did with the Fisa warrant exists, I have a basis in fact. They

:07:44. > :07:49.believe is just a belief. I know you are relatively new to journalism.

:07:50. > :07:53.Let me get the rules right. Andrew, jealousy is not your colour... If it

:07:54. > :07:57.is twitter, we don't believe it but if it is on your website, we should

:07:58. > :08:02.believe it? If I report something and I say this happened, then I am

:08:03. > :08:07.making an assertion. If I describe a belief, I am describing a belief.

:08:08. > :08:11.Subtlety may be a little difficult for you... No, no. If you want to be

:08:12. > :08:19.a journalist, beliefs have to be backed up with evidence. Really? Do

:08:20. > :08:21.you have a faith? It's not a matter of faith, maybe in your case, that

:08:22. > :08:28.President Putin murdered Andrew Breitbart. A belief and a report at

:08:29. > :08:32.two different things and no matter how often you say that they are the

:08:33. > :08:36.same, they will never be the same. You've said in today's Sunday Times

:08:37. > :08:45.here in London that you've turned into" a temporary superpower" where

:08:46. > :08:49.you "See things really clearly". Have you become delusional? No. I am

:08:50. > :08:56.describing a biological basis for ADHD, which I have. As any of your

:08:57. > :08:58.viewers who are doctors will know. It provides people with

:08:59. > :09:02.unfortunately a lot of scattered focus, they are very messy and

:09:03. > :09:06.absent-minded but when they are interested in things and they have

:09:07. > :09:10.ADHD they can have a condition which is hyper focus. You concentrate very

:09:11. > :09:15.hard on a given subject and you can see patterns and connections. That

:09:16. > :09:21.is biological. Thank you for explaining that. And for getting up

:09:22. > :09:25.early in New York. The first time ever I have interviewed a temporary

:09:26. > :09:28.superpower. Thank you. You are so lucky! You are so lucky! I don't

:09:29. > :09:33.think it's going to happen again. Please don't ask us to comment on

:09:34. > :09:38.that interview! I will not ask you, viewers will make up their own

:09:39. > :09:39.minds. Let's come back to be more mundane world of Article 50. Stop

:09:40. > :09:47.the killing! Will it get through at the

:09:48. > :09:50.government wanted it? Without the Lords amendment falling by the way

:09:51. > :09:54.that? I am sure the Lord will not try to ping-pong this back and

:09:55. > :09:58.forth. So we are at the end of this particular legislative phase. The

:09:59. > :10:01.fact that all three Brexit Cabinet ministers, number ten often don't

:10:02. > :10:05.like one of them going out on a broadcast interview on a Sunday,

:10:06. > :10:08.they've all been out and about. That suggests to me they are working on

:10:09. > :10:14.the assumption it will be triggered this week. This week. The

:10:15. > :10:18.negotiations will begin or at least the process begins. The negotiation

:10:19. > :10:22.process may be difficult, given all of the European elections. The Dutch

:10:23. > :10:26.this week. And then the French and maybe the Italians and certainly the

:10:27. > :10:30.Germans by the end of September, which is less predictable than it

:10:31. > :10:36.was. Given all that, what did you make of Anna Soubry's claim, Viacom

:10:37. > :10:40.on her part, that we may just end up crashing out in six months question

:10:41. > :10:46.-- fear on her part. It was not just that that we made that deliberately

:10:47. > :10:49.organising. I want us to get on with the deals.

:10:50. > :10:56.Everyone knows a good deal is the best option. Who knows what is going

:10:57. > :10:59.to be on the table when we finally go out? Fascinatingly, the demand

:11:00. > :11:05.for some money back, given the amount of money... Net gains and net

:11:06. > :11:12.costs in terms of us leaving for the EU. It is all to play for. That will

:11:13. > :11:16.be a possible early grounds for a confrontation between the UK and the

:11:17. > :11:21.EU. My understanding is that they expect to do a deal on reciprocal

:11:22. > :11:24.rights of EU nationals, EU nationals here, UK citizens there, quite

:11:25. > :11:29.quickly. They want to clear that up and that will be done. Then they

:11:30. > :11:32.will hit this problem that the EU will be saying you've got to agree

:11:33. > :11:37.the divorce Bill first before we talk about the free trade bill.

:11:38. > :11:41.David Davis saying quite clearly, no, they go together because of the

:11:42. > :11:46.size of the bill. It will be determined, in our part, by how good

:11:47. > :11:50.the access will be. The mutual recognition of EU residents' rights

:11:51. > :11:53.is no trouble. A huge amount of fuss is attracted to that subject but it

:11:54. > :11:57.is the easiest thing to deal with, as is free movement for tourists.

:11:58. > :12:00.Money is what will make it incredibly acrimonious. Incredibly

:12:01. > :12:05.quickly. I imagine the dominant story in the summer will be all

:12:06. > :12:08.about that. This was Anna Soubry's implication, members of the

:12:09. > :12:11.governors could strongly argue, things are so poisonous and so

:12:12. > :12:15.unpleasant at the moment, the dealers are advancing -- members of

:12:16. > :12:21.the government. Why not call it a day and go out on WTO terms while

:12:22. > :12:24.public opinion is still in that direction in that Eurosceptic

:12:25. > :12:28.direction? No buyers' remorse about last year's referendum. The longer

:12:29. > :12:32.they leave it, view more opportunity there is for some kind of public

:12:33. > :12:36.resistance and change of mind to take place. The longer believe it,

:12:37. > :12:40.the more people who voted for Brexit and people who voted Remain and

:12:41. > :12:44.think we didn't get world War three will start being quite angry with

:12:45. > :12:48.the EU for not agreeing a deal. In terms of the rights of EU nationals

:12:49. > :12:53.he and Brits abroad, by all accounts, 26 of the 27 have agreed

:12:54. > :12:56.individually. Angela Merkel is the only person who has held that up.

:12:57. > :13:02.That will be dealt with in a matter of days. The chances of a deal being

:13:03. > :13:06.done is likely but in ten seconds... It would not be a bad bet to protect

:13:07. > :13:10.your on something not happening, you might get pretty good odds? The odds

:13:11. > :13:16.are going up that a deal doesn't happen. But, as I said earlier, the

:13:17. > :13:20.House of Commons will not endorse no deal. We are either in an early

:13:21. > :13:25.election or she has to go back again. Either way, you will need us!

:13:26. > :13:29.We will be back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two ahead of what looks like

:13:30. > :13:30.being a big week in politics. We will be back here same time, same

:13:31. > :13:33.place. Remember, if it's Sunday,

:13:34. > :13:38.it's the Sunday Politics.