:00:42. > :00:46.It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:47. > :00:48.The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,
:00:49. > :00:50.but do the security services have the resources and
:00:51. > :00:54.We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.
:00:55. > :00:57.As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of
:00:58. > :01:03.Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power
:01:04. > :01:07.Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job
:01:08. > :01:13.done" - we'll speak to him and the party's
:01:14. > :01:16.And as towns across the South East breach pollution levels we ask
:01:17. > :01:18.if the Government has grasped the severity
:01:19. > :01:32.And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political
:01:33. > :01:34.panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee
:01:35. > :01:40.and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:41. > :01:42.First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack
:01:43. > :01:46.The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament,
:01:47. > :01:49.but not before he'd murdered four people and injured 50 -
:01:50. > :01:52.one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital.
:01:53. > :01:54.His target was the very heart of our democracy,
:01:55. > :01:57.the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres
:01:58. > :02:00.of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers.
:02:01. > :02:04.Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's
:02:05. > :02:06.close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity
:02:07. > :02:14.at the time, the outcome could have been even worse.
:02:15. > :02:22.Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we
:02:23. > :02:26.be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary
:02:27. > :02:30.response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as
:02:31. > :02:34.prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive
:02:35. > :02:37.way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and
:02:38. > :02:42.national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to
:02:43. > :02:45.whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put
:02:46. > :02:52.more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor
:02:53. > :02:55.sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder
:02:56. > :03:00.whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around
:03:01. > :03:04.the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack,
:03:05. > :03:08.as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on
:03:09. > :03:12.social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the
:03:13. > :03:18.attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to
:03:19. > :03:21.the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions.
:03:22. > :03:26.Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while
:03:27. > :03:31.an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the
:03:32. > :03:34.weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the
:03:35. > :03:39.world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it
:03:40. > :03:44.stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for
:03:45. > :03:48.years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the
:03:49. > :03:53.chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal,
:03:54. > :03:58.so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of
:03:59. > :04:02.London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that
:04:03. > :04:08.the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this
:04:09. > :04:14.is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think
:04:15. > :04:19.from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a
:04:20. > :04:23.poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to
:04:24. > :04:26.imagine the emergency services and local people, international
:04:27. > :04:33.visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our
:04:34. > :04:38.Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards
:04:39. > :04:41.shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice.
:04:42. > :04:45.It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values
:04:46. > :04:48.that is attacking. OK, thank you for that.
:04:49. > :04:51.So, four days after the attack, what more do we know
:04:52. > :04:54.The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains
:04:55. > :04:59.Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation.
:05:00. > :05:05.According to a police timeline, that's how long it took
:05:06. > :05:07.Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster
:05:08. > :05:13.to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter...
:05:14. > :05:17.to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard
:05:18. > :05:28.The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster.
:05:29. > :05:33.The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying:
:05:34. > :05:35."We would like to express our gratitude to the people
:05:36. > :05:38.who were with Keith in his last moments and who were
:05:39. > :05:41.There was nothing more you could have done,
:05:42. > :05:44.you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone."
:05:45. > :05:47.Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him.
:05:48. > :05:50.Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp
:05:51. > :05:57.The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging
:05:58. > :06:03.There should be no place for terrorists to hide.
:06:04. > :06:05.We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp,
:06:06. > :06:08.and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret
:06:09. > :06:11.place for terrorists to communicate with each other.
:06:12. > :06:15.It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just
:06:16. > :06:25.listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing,
:06:26. > :06:26.legally, through warrantry, but in this situation
:06:27. > :06:28.we need to make sure that our intelligence services
:06:29. > :06:30.have the ability to get into situations like encrypted
:06:31. > :06:34.She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions
:06:35. > :06:36.at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out
:06:37. > :06:40.But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be
:06:41. > :06:48...not the policy implications that will echo the loudest.
:06:49. > :06:51.We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol,
:06:52. > :06:56.the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright.
:06:57. > :07:05.What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I
:07:06. > :07:07.can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation,
:07:08. > :07:11.because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but
:07:12. > :07:15.to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80
:07:16. > :07:19.counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year,
:07:20. > :07:24.using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the
:07:25. > :07:27.very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also
:07:28. > :07:31.tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring
:07:32. > :07:39.this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made
:07:40. > :07:42.available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do
:07:43. > :07:46.we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired
:07:47. > :07:50.or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being
:07:51. > :07:54.led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate
:07:55. > :07:59.on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the
:08:00. > :08:03.attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in
:08:04. > :08:07.Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin
:08:08. > :08:12.Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last
:08:13. > :08:17.year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved
:08:18. > :08:23.have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of
:08:24. > :08:27.them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians
:08:28. > :08:31.in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a
:08:32. > :08:34.gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of
:08:35. > :08:38.attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at
:08:39. > :08:42.least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well.
:08:43. > :08:46.Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those
:08:47. > :08:50.involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is
:08:51. > :08:55.going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we?
:08:56. > :09:00.Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least
:09:01. > :09:05.the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the
:09:06. > :09:10.only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see
:09:11. > :09:15.in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for
:09:16. > :09:20.example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the
:09:21. > :09:24.security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels,
:09:25. > :09:29.Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that
:09:30. > :09:35.could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at
:09:36. > :09:38.least the first indications from what police are saying in London,
:09:39. > :09:43.these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of
:09:44. > :09:47.the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised
:09:48. > :09:52.community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a
:09:53. > :09:57.dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised
:09:58. > :10:00.individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult
:10:01. > :10:05.when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that
:10:06. > :10:09.they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the
:10:10. > :10:12.work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices
:10:13. > :10:17.that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home
:10:18. > :10:22.Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps
:10:23. > :10:26.like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they
:10:27. > :10:30.encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services
:10:31. > :10:36.to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for
:10:37. > :10:40.that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years
:10:41. > :10:44.there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are
:10:45. > :10:48.becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more
:10:49. > :10:51.and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators,
:10:52. > :10:55.and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the
:10:56. > :10:59.ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not
:11:00. > :11:04.when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board,
:11:05. > :11:08.for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have
:11:09. > :11:11.to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of
:11:12. > :11:14.these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a
:11:15. > :11:22.more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is
:11:23. > :11:27.certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying
:11:28. > :11:35.to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree
:11:36. > :11:38.certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative
:11:39. > :11:42.solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide
:11:43. > :11:48.but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done
:11:49. > :11:50.to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of
:11:51. > :11:55.communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our
:11:56. > :11:57.lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much.
:11:58. > :12:00.Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House
:12:01. > :12:07.What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of
:12:08. > :12:10.Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very
:12:11. > :12:19.courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to
:12:20. > :12:24.be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident
:12:25. > :12:27.of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but
:12:28. > :12:34.also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already
:12:35. > :12:40.under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and
:12:41. > :12:48.security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get
:12:49. > :12:51.reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary
:12:52. > :12:54.security director, and just as security matters in parliament are
:12:55. > :12:58.kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as
:12:59. > :13:03.a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the
:13:04. > :13:07.issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling
:13:08. > :13:10.events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their
:13:11. > :13:16.lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is
:13:17. > :13:19.it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate,
:13:20. > :13:26.where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening
:13:27. > :13:30.for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led
:13:31. > :13:38.to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last
:13:39. > :13:41.couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have
:13:42. > :13:46.actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would
:13:47. > :13:49.expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security
:13:50. > :13:55.matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at
:13:56. > :14:00.all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the
:14:01. > :14:05.security authorities and in particular for the police and direct
:14:06. > :14:11.command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it
:14:12. > :14:15.because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers
:14:16. > :14:19.this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no
:14:20. > :14:22.position to comment on the details of the operation but my
:14:23. > :14:28.understanding is that the number of people available is what the police
:14:29. > :14:32.and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and
:14:33. > :14:37.that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it
:14:38. > :14:43.not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left
:14:44. > :14:48.unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so
:14:49. > :14:54.that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able
:14:55. > :15:00.to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that
:15:01. > :15:04.case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't
:15:05. > :15:06.yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody
:15:07. > :15:12.involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who
:15:13. > :15:18.was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time.
:15:19. > :15:22.We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were
:15:23. > :15:28.concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the
:15:29. > :15:32.attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with
:15:33. > :15:37.a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it
:15:38. > :15:41.is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be
:15:42. > :15:46.pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it.
:15:47. > :15:49.To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the
:15:50. > :15:54.witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what
:15:55. > :15:57.happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any
:15:58. > :16:01.changes need to be made in light of that.
:16:02. > :16:10.We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence
:16:11. > :16:14.Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced
:16:15. > :16:19.the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details
:16:20. > :16:23.but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have
:16:24. > :16:28.been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has
:16:29. > :16:34.been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a
:16:35. > :16:38.so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the
:16:39. > :16:48.Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this
:16:49. > :16:52.simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that
:16:53. > :17:01.is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader
:17:02. > :17:07.of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals
:17:08. > :17:12.who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by
:17:13. > :17:16.the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in
:17:17. > :17:21.public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been
:17:22. > :17:24.reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it
:17:25. > :17:31.raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions
:17:32. > :17:38.should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are
:17:39. > :17:42.kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both
:17:43. > :17:48.in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the
:17:49. > :17:52.palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the
:17:53. > :17:59.perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was
:18:00. > :18:03.a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at
:18:04. > :18:16.carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed
:18:17. > :18:21.guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to
:18:22. > :18:24.look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing.
:18:25. > :18:28.There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't
:18:29. > :18:32.know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will
:18:33. > :18:39.find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If
:18:40. > :18:42.you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to
:18:43. > :18:48.be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed
:18:49. > :18:52.accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about
:18:53. > :18:57.lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is
:18:58. > :19:00.important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview
:19:01. > :19:05.of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered
:19:06. > :19:10.view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will
:19:11. > :19:15.be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins
:19:16. > :19:20.our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on
:19:21. > :19:24.Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper
:19:25. > :19:29.that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's
:19:30. > :19:36.not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts
:19:37. > :19:41.of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the
:19:42. > :19:46.commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime
:19:47. > :19:52.Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has
:19:53. > :19:56.been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It
:19:57. > :20:04.doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational
:20:05. > :20:08.mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an
:20:09. > :20:14.agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies
:20:15. > :20:18.that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police
:20:19. > :20:23.cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all
:20:24. > :20:27.countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it
:20:28. > :20:34.will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that?
:20:35. > :20:39.Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context
:20:40. > :20:43.of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the
:20:44. > :20:48.departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply
:20:49. > :20:53.not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a
:20:54. > :20:57.discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we
:20:58. > :21:01.all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we
:21:02. > :21:03.will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is
:21:04. > :21:20.possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The
:21:21. > :21:23.question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the
:21:24. > :21:26.subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel?
:21:27. > :21:31.Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have
:21:32. > :21:36.to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate
:21:37. > :21:40.the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once
:21:41. > :21:46.David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the
:21:47. > :21:51.national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady
:21:52. > :21:55.progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good
:21:56. > :22:03.piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a
:22:04. > :22:08.substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out
:22:09. > :22:13.some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU
:22:14. > :22:20.programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50
:22:21. > :22:25.billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So
:22:26. > :22:31.50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get
:22:32. > :22:36.into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting
:22:37. > :22:43.very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum
:22:44. > :22:48.there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of
:22:49. > :22:51.separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find
:22:52. > :23:02.out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The
:23:03. > :23:08.Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which
:23:09. > :23:12.is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision
:23:13. > :23:17.of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in
:23:18. > :23:21.a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity
:23:22. > :23:25.and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the
:23:26. > :23:30.Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on
:23:31. > :23:35.Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will
:23:36. > :23:40.see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine
:23:41. > :23:45.thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII
:23:46. > :23:51.powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to
:23:52. > :23:58.avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities
:23:59. > :24:03.Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory
:24:04. > :24:09.footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those
:24:10. > :24:17.EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another
:24:18. > :24:21.regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to
:24:22. > :24:32.have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European
:24:33. > :24:38.regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come
:24:39. > :24:42.in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those
:24:43. > :24:45.powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the
:24:46. > :24:51.parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And
:24:52. > :24:56.if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the
:24:57. > :25:00.Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary
:25:01. > :25:04.legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the
:25:05. > :25:10.constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill
:25:11. > :25:13.and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House
:25:14. > :25:19.of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those
:25:20. > :25:25.powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision.
:25:26. > :25:27.David Lidington, thank you for being with us.
:25:28. > :25:29.So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell.
:25:30. > :25:31.He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party
:25:32. > :25:32.almost three years ago, but yesterday announced
:25:33. > :25:35.that he was quitting to sit as an independent.
:25:36. > :25:36.His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying,
:25:37. > :25:39."Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster".
:25:40. > :25:43.But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell
:25:44. > :25:45.criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as
:25:46. > :25:50.Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage
:25:51. > :25:53.was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell
:25:54. > :25:59.opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign.
:26:00. > :26:01.Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage
:26:02. > :26:03.accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances
:26:04. > :26:05.of being awarded a knighthood, writing that,
:26:06. > :26:13.Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday,
:26:14. > :26:15.Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU.
:26:16. > :26:19.Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have
:26:20. > :26:21.decided that I will be leaving Ukip."
:26:22. > :26:24.When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014
:26:25. > :26:27.he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election.
:26:28. > :26:29."I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring
:26:30. > :26:38.This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election.
:26:39. > :26:44.We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall.
:26:45. > :26:54.Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your
:26:55. > :27:00.only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at
:27:01. > :27:05.a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not
:27:06. > :27:09.surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the
:27:10. > :27:13.past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage
:27:14. > :27:17.certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime
:27:18. > :27:21.which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had
:27:22. > :27:25.done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering
:27:26. > :27:32.over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a
:27:33. > :27:36.more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he
:27:37. > :27:39.expected to be pushed out your national executive committee
:27:40. > :27:42.tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to
:27:43. > :27:46.answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the
:27:47. > :27:53.last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue
:27:54. > :27:58.surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came
:27:59. > :28:02.out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to
:28:03. > :28:10.answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did
:28:11. > :28:14.jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out
:28:15. > :28:22.of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear
:28:23. > :28:27.is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the
:28:28. > :28:32.party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks,
:28:33. > :28:37.you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a
:28:38. > :28:45.pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party,
:28:46. > :29:01.doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to
:29:02. > :29:05.rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over
:29:06. > :29:09.the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will
:29:10. > :29:13.rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have
:29:14. > :29:18.a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post
:29:19. > :29:23.Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he
:29:24. > :29:27.said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the
:29:28. > :29:32.skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't
:29:33. > :29:38.it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November
:29:39. > :29:42.the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the
:29:43. > :29:45.party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem
:29:46. > :29:51.money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look
:29:52. > :29:56.forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit
:29:57. > :30:02.test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have
:30:03. > :30:05.been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you
:30:06. > :30:12.will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No,
:30:13. > :30:16.not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past,
:30:17. > :30:22.he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that
:30:23. > :30:25.but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for
:30:26. > :30:35.the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be
:30:36. > :30:41.interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster
:30:42. > :30:44.attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's
:30:45. > :30:50.extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like
:30:51. > :30:54.Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I
:30:55. > :30:58.personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I
:30:59. > :31:03.will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem
:31:04. > :31:08.within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the
:31:09. > :31:11.way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr
:31:12. > :31:28.Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the
:31:29. > :31:30.problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate
:31:31. > :31:32.communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would
:31:33. > :31:35.extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in
:31:36. > :31:38.Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But,
:31:39. > :31:41.as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme
:31:42. > :31:45.vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question
:31:46. > :31:50.too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get
:31:51. > :31:53.you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in
:31:54. > :31:57.Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has
:31:58. > :32:04.left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to
:32:05. > :32:07.go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people
:32:08. > :32:10.in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should
:32:11. > :32:17.have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon.
:32:18. > :32:23.Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio.
:32:24. > :32:30.Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are
:32:31. > :32:33.becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted
:32:34. > :32:38.myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to
:32:39. > :32:42.trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons
:32:43. > :32:46.resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the
:32:47. > :32:50.democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran
:32:51. > :32:56.parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here,
:32:57. > :32:59.I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage
:33:00. > :33:08.has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants
:33:09. > :33:12.to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going
:33:13. > :33:16.to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his
:33:17. > :33:20.constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr
:33:21. > :33:27.Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from
:33:28. > :33:29.Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the
:33:30. > :33:36.opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not
:33:37. > :33:40.always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an
:33:41. > :33:45.e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back,
:33:46. > :33:52.overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you
:33:53. > :33:57.are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won,
:33:58. > :34:01.Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June
:34:02. > :34:05.the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be
:34:06. > :34:10.absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is
:34:11. > :34:13.right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the
:34:14. > :34:17.European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one
:34:18. > :34:22.another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline
:34:23. > :34:28.the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I
:34:29. > :34:33.have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge.
:34:34. > :34:37.You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made
:34:38. > :34:40.the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made
:34:41. > :34:44.it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote
:34:45. > :34:48.Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would
:34:49. > :34:54.win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of
:34:55. > :35:02.that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas
:35:03. > :35:04.I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history
:35:05. > :35:08.proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk
:35:09. > :35:12.often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part
:35:13. > :35:17.of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic
:35:18. > :35:22.policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to
:35:23. > :35:25.sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave
:35:26. > :35:31.certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They
:35:32. > :35:37.freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel
:35:38. > :35:42.still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for
:35:43. > :35:44.Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and
:35:45. > :35:50.we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like
:35:51. > :35:54.Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is
:35:55. > :35:58.to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why
:35:59. > :36:02.can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but
:36:03. > :36:06.you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this
:36:07. > :36:10.than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten
:36:11. > :36:14.years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in
:36:15. > :36:18.2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in
:36:19. > :36:23.2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left
:36:24. > :36:26.us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically
:36:27. > :36:31.gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her
:36:32. > :36:36.record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam,
:36:37. > :36:40.nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of
:36:41. > :36:43.thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the
:36:44. > :36:47.size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of
:36:48. > :36:51.thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The
:36:52. > :36:55.problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the
:36:56. > :36:59.argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted
:37:00. > :37:04.her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until
:37:05. > :37:08.she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen,
:37:09. > :37:11.just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past.
:37:12. > :37:16.Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee
:37:17. > :37:19.into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what
:37:20. > :37:28.people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself
:37:29. > :37:32.with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip
:37:33. > :37:37.to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will
:37:38. > :37:41.come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit
:37:42. > :37:44.Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill
:37:45. > :37:50.and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas
:37:51. > :37:55.Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in
:37:56. > :38:01.the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were
:38:02. > :38:04.Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a
:38:05. > :38:09.Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a
:38:10. > :38:13.Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a
:38:14. > :38:16.party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree
:38:17. > :38:24.with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into
:38:25. > :38:28.2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote
:38:29. > :38:32.Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you
:38:33. > :38:37.fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and
:38:38. > :38:53.see. Very well! Thank you both very much.
:38:54. > :38:55.I'm Julia George and this is the Sunday Politics
:38:56. > :39:01.It's not just our big cities that have a problem with dirty air -
:39:02. > :39:04.so what's the Government doing to clean up its act?
:39:05. > :39:10.Joining me in the studio today are Tracey Crouch,
:39:11. > :39:13.Conservative MP for Chatham and Aylesford - she's also
:39:14. > :39:15.a Minister in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport -
:39:16. > :39:17.and the Green MEP for the South East, Keith Taylor.
:39:18. > :39:21.Britain is not afraid, the words of the Prime Minister
:39:22. > :39:24.speaking in the House of Commons on Thursday a day after the deadly
:39:25. > :39:28.One MP who was in the Palace of Westminster at the time
:39:29. > :39:34.When did you first realise something awful is happening?
:39:35. > :39:37.Well, actually if I may just first express my condolences to the family
:39:38. > :39:40.of Keith Palmer and those who died on Wednesday and send my thoughts
:39:41. > :39:45.and prayers to those were still injured.
:39:46. > :39:49.I was in the chamber, we were in the middle of a vote
:39:50. > :39:52.and all of a sudden all the doors were locked and we couldn't get out
:39:53. > :39:56.of the vote and it was at that point that he began to realise that
:39:57. > :40:08.Colleagues who were outside and had witnessed what had happened started
:40:09. > :40:11.to tell their story and then like everybody else we turned
:40:12. > :40:13.to social media to find out what was going on,
:40:14. > :40:15.so we were learning what was happening outside
:40:16. > :40:18.of the chamber in the same way that everybody else was.
:40:19. > :40:20.You went to reassure a group of schoolchildren
:40:21. > :40:25.Well, I was certainly frightened, so I figured they would be petrified
:40:26. > :40:28.and because we were all locked in I had to seek permission to leave
:40:29. > :40:31.the chamber and a doorkeeper unlocked the door and took me up
:40:32. > :40:34.to the children and I just wanted to reassure them that actually
:40:35. > :40:37.they were in the safest part of the building, they were in
:40:38. > :40:40.the same place as 350 MPs, nobody could get in or out of that
:40:41. > :40:43.particular part of the building, but I also wanted to tell
:40:44. > :40:46.the teacher that we were going to be there for some time
:40:47. > :40:49.and that they needed to get the message out that they were safe
:40:50. > :40:52.They certainly weren't going to be on the train
:40:53. > :41:00.Let's move on to what this event means for London and
:41:01. > :41:04.Keith, you're on the transport and tourism committee
:41:05. > :41:07.Keith, do you think tourists, domestic and foreign,
:41:08. > :41:10.need to be persuaded that London is a safe place?
:41:11. > :41:13.Before I do that, I would echo the sentiments and sympathy
:41:14. > :41:16.and gratitude to the security people who actually really put their lives
:41:17. > :41:30.Coincidentally, I was actually also in a parliament vote,
:41:31. > :41:34.in the European Parliament, just that morning on the way
:41:35. > :41:38.in I noticed lots of TV trucks by the station,
:41:39. > :41:41.which is a year ago to the day was the place the terrorist
:41:42. > :41:53.And just yesterday in Antwerp there was a thwarted terrorist attempt.
:41:54. > :41:57.As far as your question's concerned, I think London is still a special
:41:58. > :41:59.place and I still think it will actually...
:42:00. > :42:04.It will undoubtedly discourage some but the attractions of London also
:42:05. > :42:10.remain and of course the weak pound remains as a factor.
:42:11. > :42:17.Here in the south-east we're incredibly close to this
:42:18. > :42:27.I know from my own children's school, they are planning a trip
:42:28. > :42:30.to the Houses of Parliament this coming week, and a small
:42:31. > :42:31.number of parents have expressed some concern.
:42:32. > :42:34.Well, it's natural to have that concern.
:42:35. > :42:37.It would be wrong to cancel the trip because London is a very resilient
:42:38. > :42:40.city and people come to London because it has some
:42:41. > :42:43.The building I work in is a world heritage zone.
:42:44. > :42:47.We have thousands and thousands of people coming in and out
:42:48. > :42:51.Millions of people coming in and out of London every single day.
:42:52. > :42:54.I would encourage people to still come because if they don't
:42:55. > :43:01.then I'm afraid we let fear win and we don't want to do that.
:43:02. > :43:04.And so I would encourage people to still come and visit and know
:43:05. > :43:07.that they are actually safe in doing so.
:43:08. > :43:10.Keith, do you think anything has changed or should anything
:43:11. > :43:18.We will hopefully be able to look at the prevent strategy to reach any
:43:19. > :43:25.conclusions about how we could detect this in advance.
:43:26. > :43:28.We're far too early on in the proceedings in this case
:43:29. > :43:37.But I think there needs to be lessons learnt.
:43:38. > :43:40.And we need to ensure that people are as safe as possible.
:43:41. > :43:43.I personally am very frightened, I don't mind admitting that,
:43:44. > :43:49.when I go about my business in the parliament in Europe.
:43:50. > :43:56.And, you know, you would be silly not to admit that.
:43:57. > :43:59.But it's something that people need to be...
:44:00. > :44:04.I'm not at all frightened when I'm in that building because I do
:44:05. > :44:06.actually think that the Palace of Westminster is probably
:44:07. > :44:08.one of the most secure buildings in the country
:44:09. > :44:17.Actually, I was a little bit frustrated with some of the media
:44:18. > :44:20.reporting that he'd got particularly far through the gates
:44:21. > :44:27.or that he was yards away from the Prime Minister.
:44:28. > :44:30.He didn't get very far at all and if he had got any further,
:44:31. > :44:33.he would have got shot just a little bit further along.
:44:34. > :44:36.London is a fantastic city, we have millions of people visit.
:44:37. > :44:39.I'm proud to be Tourism Minister because I think we have a great deal
:44:40. > :44:44.Now, do you have the right to breathe clean air?
:44:45. > :44:47.Legal limits of air pollution are being breached in towns
:44:48. > :44:48.like Canterbury, Brighton, Tunbridge Wells,
:44:49. > :44:53.And the dirty air - which you can't see,
:44:54. > :44:55.touch or even smell is responsible for 40,000 premature
:44:56. > :45:01.With our report, here's Sara Neville.
:45:02. > :45:07.Coastal Kent with its far-reaching views miles from the nearest town.
:45:08. > :45:09.And yet it's here that Carole Whitbread says air
:45:10. > :45:16.I'd taken the dogs out for a walk and my breathing became
:45:17. > :45:22.In the end, I couldn't take more than
:45:23. > :45:23.three steps and couldn't breathe at all.
:45:24. > :45:31.I was terrified, I was hoping somebody would come along.
:45:32. > :45:37.I thought that I was going to die them and then.
:45:38. > :45:42.Carole used to be a superfit police officer with the Met until
:45:43. > :45:47.she was diagnosed with lung disease eight years ago.
:45:48. > :45:50.Now she won't leave her home on the Isle of Grain without
:45:51. > :45:53.When the doctor said that because of the
:45:54. > :45:54.pollution warning I shouldn't even have
:45:55. > :45:56.been out of the house, that was
:45:57. > :45:58.my first insight into pollution and what it can do.
:45:59. > :46:00.Vehicles like these on the Dartford Crossing spew out
:46:01. > :46:02.pollutants associated with deadly diseases,
:46:03. > :46:04.such as asthma, cancer, lung and heart disease.
:46:05. > :46:05.But the problem is not confined to major
:46:06. > :46:13.Experts say Kent and Sussex sit in a pollution
:46:14. > :46:14.hotspot exacerbated by harmful particles radiating
:46:15. > :46:20.5% of all deaths in the region are attributable to
:46:21. > :46:27.And EU limits have been exceeded in many towns.
:46:28. > :46:29.Dartford has one of the highest death rates in the region
:46:30. > :46:41.This unremarkable container at the University of
:46:42. > :46:43.Brighton houses some of the most advanced pollution monitoring
:46:44. > :46:47.It's the only one closely analysing ultrafine nano
:46:48. > :46:54.particles that are thought to be particularly damaging to health.
:46:55. > :47:00.Researchers hope results could influence Government policy.
:47:01. > :47:01.The nanometre particles, although they're
:47:02. > :47:04.not in the legislation at the moment, have a significant health
:47:05. > :47:10.impact, so they can penetrate deep into our body.
:47:11. > :47:13.They can be absorbed through the lungs into our bodies
:47:14. > :47:15.and they are carcinogenic, they can cause neurological,
:47:16. > :47:19.Obviously quality is currently moderate by the Government
:47:20. > :47:26.but would you say that Government is doing enough?
:47:27. > :47:29.Well, no, there needs to be more hard measures to protect our health.
:47:30. > :47:31.Last year the World Health Organisation estimated that
:47:32. > :47:34.roughly 12% of all global death is the result of air pollution.
:47:35. > :47:38.There is mounting pressure on the Government to take urgent
:47:39. > :47:42.Last month, the European Commission sent a final
:47:43. > :47:48.warning to the UK over breaches of air quality limits.
:47:49. > :47:51.And in an unprecedented move this week, MPs
:47:52. > :47:56.launched a super enquiry to scrutinise Government plans to
:47:57. > :48:03.The Government was recently accused of dragging its
:48:04. > :48:06.heels in court by environmental lawyers who are now calling for a
:48:07. > :48:10.We did it in the '50s, it cleaned up the smog from the
:48:11. > :48:22.People have seen that on TV, when people were dying.
:48:23. > :48:25.People are dying early because of a pollution.
:48:26. > :48:29.Let's bring in a new Clean Air Act that will enshrine the
:48:30. > :48:31.right to breathe clean air into UK law.
:48:32. > :48:34.The Government is currently working on a revised clean air strategy.
:48:35. > :48:41.Carole Whitbread says it can't come soon enough for her.
:48:42. > :48:43.Joining us in the studio is Christopher Snelling
:48:44. > :48:45.from the Freight Transport Association.
:48:46. > :48:48.I will start with Tracey Crouch, isn't it time to treat air pollution
:48:49. > :48:55.Well, I think the Government is taking it seriously.
:48:56. > :48:58.It has said it will meet its targets by 2020 and
:48:59. > :49:05.it's put ?2 billion of money behind what it's saying it's going to live.
:49:06. > :49:08.Recently, Defra wrote to all local to remind them of their commitments
:49:09. > :49:17.I know my own local authorities have received that letter because I've
:49:18. > :49:19.seen replies to the Minister telling them what they're doing.
:49:20. > :49:23.I think it's important for my constituency perspective.
:49:24. > :49:27.Chatham is one of the worst areas in terms of their pollution
:49:28. > :49:29.and I think it's important that local authorities across
:49:30. > :49:37.You mentioned Chatham, I'm going to top trump
:49:38. > :49:43.The quality at the end of my road, and I only discovered this
:49:44. > :49:45.as a consequence of talking about it today, breached annual legal limits
:49:46. > :49:49.for nitrogen dioxide two years running, 2015-16.
:49:50. > :49:52.There are five schools on that road or adjacent to it.
:49:53. > :49:55.We've got particulates, which are triggering premature
:49:56. > :49:57.deaths in other towns like Eastbourne and Chatham
:49:58. > :50:08.The severity of this, it took the Government two legal
:50:09. > :50:10.challenges from Client Earth before they got to the point
:50:11. > :50:12.where they said they would tackle this effectively.
:50:13. > :50:13.I can completely understand people's concerns.
:50:14. > :50:16.I think across the south-east we've seen an increase in the number
:50:17. > :50:24.We have some real problems with congestion in the area,
:50:25. > :50:32.we have out-of-date rolling stock when it comes to buses
:50:33. > :50:34.and we have a continuous amount of freight coming
:50:35. > :50:36.in through the county, through the two
:50:37. > :50:40.So I fully understand people's concerns but I do think that we need
:50:41. > :50:43.to take this and look at it from a holistic perspective
:50:44. > :50:45.and I know that both Defra and the Department for Transport
:50:46. > :50:48.are working together to make sure that they come up
:50:49. > :50:51.Keith Taylor, reducing pollution is expensive.
:50:52. > :50:54.How is it going to be paid for and who is going to pay
:50:55. > :50:56.for it and should it be the freight operators themselves?
:50:57. > :50:59.It should come from central Government and when I hear Tracey
:51:00. > :51:01.say that the Government is taking it very seriously, well,
:51:02. > :51:04.I've been working on air pollution ever since I was elected
:51:05. > :51:07.as a councillor in Brighton in 1999 and I'm telling you the Government
:51:08. > :51:10.doesn't take it seriously, in fact they take it so seriously
:51:11. > :51:14.they actually wanted to end a local authority's testing
:51:15. > :51:22.Local authorities have the power to basically bring in their
:51:23. > :51:30.They don't get any money from central Government.
:51:31. > :51:32.There is only a few in the south-east.
:51:33. > :51:34.Before we thrash it out between local and central
:51:35. > :51:42.Government, I do want to bring Christopher Snelling in.
:51:43. > :51:45.What are hauliers and delivery companies, because we've got a big
:51:46. > :51:47.industry on home delivery now, what are they doing
:51:48. > :51:54.I think the important thing to remember is that whenever
:51:55. > :51:58.we identify the scale of the health impact we are talking
:51:59. > :52:01.about but we sometimes get the wrong message about this when we think
:52:02. > :52:05.it's a growing problem or getting worse.
:52:06. > :52:08.Our air is actually cleaner than it was ten years ago and part
:52:09. > :52:11.of the reason for that is that people in our industry
:52:12. > :52:14.If we look at the latest generation of diesel trucks,
:52:15. > :52:16.we are looking at an 80% reduction in local pollutants.
:52:17. > :52:19.But how many companies can afford to switch?
:52:20. > :52:23.Every diesel truck you've been able to buy since the 1st of January 2014
:52:24. > :52:29.Companies are unable to buy new trucks letter really
:52:30. > :52:32.all the companies operating in the country by new trucks,
:52:33. > :52:49.The whole theatre replaced about 10% a year. Ten years on there is a
:52:50. > :52:57.massive reduction in air pollutants. But it'll be 2024 before we see a
:52:58. > :53:02.fleet of cleaner vehicles. But you see these rolling out already. It's
:53:03. > :53:06.a remarkable engineering achievement to have cleaned his vehicles up as
:53:07. > :53:10.much as they have. It's got more challenges on cars and fans but even
:53:11. > :53:16.there they are improving all the time. Let's talk about the cleaners
:53:17. > :53:20.on. We've got five or six coming. They are all in cities. When they
:53:21. > :53:26.come in, they make a difference overnight. The trouble is that there
:53:27. > :53:31.are none in the south-east. Local authorities are not using the power.
:53:32. > :53:37.Why do we need a cleaners on at least possible in every town in the
:53:38. > :53:44.south-east? We are looking at 40-50,000 attributable deaths in the
:53:45. > :53:48.country. We are looking at 750 in Kent alone. This is not optional,
:53:49. > :53:53.this is something Government is responsible for. You just imagine
:53:54. > :53:58.the tobacco industry actually being the tobacco industry actually being
:53:59. > :54:04.able to continue in its trade with its health impacts actually
:54:05. > :54:08.established. And the Government not doing anything about it. The thing
:54:09. > :54:13.is that the Government has not done anything. Well it's Conte photo.
:54:14. > :54:22.When it comes to local authorities, When it comes to local authorities,
:54:23. > :54:27.the air quality grants worth ?3.7 million last year. Not a single one
:54:28. > :54:31.million against 40,000 deaths. I million against 40,000 deaths. I
:54:32. > :54:37.believe there was additional funding. That was announced in the
:54:38. > :54:42.Autumn Statement last year for local authority. And nothing in the budget
:54:43. > :54:46.issue. Which is what the ministers have been writing to local
:54:47. > :54:51.authorities and converting them to apply for these grants. There is no
:54:52. > :54:57.one single thing that is going to stop this. It is about a holistic
:54:58. > :55:02.approach, making sure that traffic is free-flowing. That the vehicles
:55:03. > :55:05.are better. Making sure that there is joined up cycling strategy. We
:55:06. > :55:07.can pick up on the floor traffic can pick up on the floor traffic
:55:08. > :55:08.with the next subject. The major cause of pollution is,
:55:09. > :55:11.as we've heard, traffic - cars and lorries, sitting on roads
:55:12. > :55:13.with nowhere to go. And if you're a regular user
:55:14. > :55:16.of the Dartford Crossing you'll be One major project to try
:55:17. > :55:20.to alleviate the regular bottleneck at Dartford is a new crossing
:55:21. > :55:22.over the Thames. But is simply building
:55:23. > :55:35.more roads the answer? Christopher, a report this week said
:55:36. > :55:39.that building new roads doesn't ease congestion, it causes traffic
:55:40. > :55:45.increases so why would we go ahead with this massively expensive
:55:46. > :55:50.project? You can reduce congestion by budding the right infrastructure
:55:51. > :55:55.in the right place. Something like a lower Thames crossing is good for
:55:56. > :55:59.the economy. It's about our trading links with Europe. Making sure these
:56:00. > :56:06.work effectively is going to be even more important in the years ahead.
:56:07. > :56:08.It's important not to have people are sad and massive queues and you
:56:09. > :56:17.can manage these things by having can manage these things by having
:56:18. > :56:27.better roads. If the highways England recommendation the right
:56:28. > :56:35.infrastructure project? Yes, we believe so. It offers the most
:56:36. > :56:43.effective connection. It's the most robust alternative to Dartford. Same
:56:44. > :56:49.question to you. Visit the right solution? Ice aborted options in
:56:50. > :56:54.which included a infrastructure rebuild of the junctions between the
:56:55. > :57:01.M25 the M2, which run straight to my constituency. You say that you
:57:02. > :57:05.supported option C but on your own website you've written option C is
:57:06. > :57:10.not only massively expensive but would rip up huge parts of the
:57:11. > :57:16.countryside in my constituency. I think that's a mistake. I've written
:57:17. > :57:24.to ministers supporting option C. I'm not wedded to any particular
:57:25. > :57:29.part -- any particular crossing. I think we just need another Thames
:57:30. > :57:36.crossing. Do you mean it is a mistake on your part to support it?
:57:37. > :57:41.No, no, no. I have written ministers expressing support for option C.
:57:42. > :57:51.Over double check that. Very quick thought. Anyone that has crossed
:57:52. > :57:55.Dartford Crossing. We need the resilience of another crossing,
:57:56. > :58:00.surely? I think what we need to do is we approach the problem. The
:58:01. > :58:06.problem is getting from A to B. Using a measure of different
:58:07. > :58:13.solutions. I've been to a village in Kent, very nice place, it will have
:58:14. > :58:17.a eight lane motorway rammed through it. ?6 billion. We don't know it is.
:58:18. > :58:25.He/she be a clear that we haven't had the amounts and yet. -- we
:58:26. > :58:28.should be clear. Surely we can find other uses in developing our
:58:29. > :58:35.services and developing faster services is actually not make people
:58:36. > :58:39.and trucks have to cross the Thames. We will wait until May and we will
:58:40. > :58:41.have a report on the final decision. Thank you for joining us.
:58:42. > :58:44.And now it's time for some of the other news you may have
:58:45. > :58:51.missed in Sixty Seconds with Yetunde Yusuf.
:58:52. > :58:53.Councillor David Hodge has stepped down from his role leading
:58:54. > :58:55.the Conservative group of a local Government Association,
:58:56. > :59:01.but he stays on as leader of Surrey County Council
:59:02. > :59:04.despite an attempt by the Lib Dems to oust him last month.
:59:05. > :59:07.Text messages emerged alleging that Hodge had struck a deal
:59:08. > :59:11.with the Government to call off a 15% council tax rise.
:59:12. > :59:13.There's talk of secret deals and gentlemen's agreement,
:59:14. > :59:18.But the Government has denied Labour Party claims that Surrey
:59:19. > :59:21.Rochester prison is to be temporarily closed while it
:59:22. > :59:27.It is part of Government plans to create 10,000 modern
:59:28. > :59:33.Staff and inmates will be moved to other prisons nearby.
:59:34. > :59:38.Controversial plans by Brighton and Hove City Council to sell of land
:59:39. > :59:49.in the South Downs National Park has been called off.
:59:50. > :59:51.Eastbourne Borough Council was also planning to
:59:52. > :59:52.sell its Downland farms but
:59:53. > :59:58.changed its mind after local people voted against the idea.
:59:59. > :00:08.That was last week. Tracey Crouch Europe the only MP in the south-east
:00:09. > :00:11.to not disclose which we voted in the referendum. Your constituents
:00:12. > :00:17.surely have a right to know whether to support where we going. Do you
:00:18. > :00:26.support the triggering of Article 50? Of course. I did not declare
:00:27. > :00:32.which way voted and I don't think it relevant. The nation and my
:00:33. > :00:36.constituency voted to leave and I as a member of Parliament and a
:00:37. > :00:40.Government minister are now working incredibly hard to make sure that as
:00:41. > :00:51.the goal for Brit... Did you vote at all? Yes, I voted. People died to
:00:52. > :00:56.give me my vote. I'm why what you tell the constituents? I think the
:00:57. > :01:01.media can however altered but I don't think people care. But how did
:01:02. > :01:09.you vote? I would lose my job instantly if I told you. And rightly
:01:10. > :01:14.so. And your politician, I'm a journalist. You don't have to
:01:15. > :01:20.declare how you voted and I don't have a desire to declare. I don't
:01:21. > :01:29.think it relevant. The important thing is that I will be supporting
:01:30. > :01:36.my constituents' needs. It's a step. In fact, the people of Britain
:01:37. > :01:42.decided to leave Europe, they did decide to crash out in the Theresa
:01:43. > :01:44.May... Keith Taylor, thank you very much indeed. Tracey Crouch, thank
:01:45. > :01:46.you. can see you nodding in agreement but
:01:47. > :01:48.we don't have any more time! Thank you both for coming in, Andrew, back
:01:49. > :01:55.to you. So yesterday the European Union
:01:56. > :02:12.celebrated its 60th birthday at a party in Rome, the city
:02:13. > :02:14.where the founding document Leaders of 27 EU countries
:02:15. > :02:18.were there to mark the occasion - overshadowing it, though,
:02:19. > :02:20.the continued terrorist threat, And on Wednesday Theresa May,
:02:21. > :02:23.who wasn't in Rome yesterday, will trigger Article 50,
:02:24. > :02:25.formally starting The President of the European
:02:26. > :02:28.Council, Donald Tusk, made an appeal for unity
:02:29. > :02:34.at the gathering. Today in Rome, we are renewing
:02:35. > :02:39.the unique alliance of free nations that was initiated 60 years ago
:02:40. > :02:48.by our great predecessors. At that time, they did not
:02:49. > :02:50.discuss multiple speeds, they did not devise exits,
:02:51. > :02:54.but despite all the tragic circumstances of the recent history
:02:55. > :03:15.they placed all their faith Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that
:03:16. > :03:18.has the Council of ministers, and on that council where every member of
:03:19. > :03:23.the EU sits he is an important figure in what is now about to
:03:24. > :03:29.happen. We have got to negotiate our divorce terms, we've got to agree a
:03:30. > :03:33.new free trade deal, new crime-fighting arrangements, we've
:03:34. > :03:38.got to repatriate 50 international trade agreements, and all of that
:03:39. > :03:44.has to be ratified within two years, by 27 other countries. Can that
:03:45. > :03:48.really happen?! I don't think it is inconceivable because it is in the
:03:49. > :03:51.interests of those 27 EU member states to try and negotiate a deal
:03:52. > :03:56.that we can all live with, because that would be preferable to Britain
:03:57. > :04:00.crashing out within two years. But I think this is why Labour's position
:04:01. > :04:05.is becoming increasingly incoherent. Keir Starmer has briefed today that
:04:06. > :04:09.he will be making a speech tomorrow setting out six conditions which he
:04:10. > :04:11.wants the deal to meet, otherwise Labour won't vote for it, but if
:04:12. > :04:31.Labour doesn't vote for it that doesn't mean we will be able to
:04:32. > :04:34.negotiate an extension, that would be incredibly difficult and require
:04:35. > :04:36.the consent of each of the 27 member states, so if Labour votes against
:04:37. > :04:39.it we will just crash out, it is effectively Labour saying no deal is
:04:40. > :04:41.better than a poor deal, which is not supposed to be their position.
:04:42. > :04:44.Labour's position may be incoherent but I was not asking about their
:04:45. > :04:46.position, I was asking about the Government's position. The man
:04:47. > :04:49.heading the Badila said he wants it ready by October next year so that
:04:50. > :04:51.it can go through the ratification process, people looking at this
:04:52. > :04:56.would think it is Mission: Impossible. It seems impossible to
:04:57. > :05:02.me to be done in that time. The fact that it is 27 countries, the whole
:05:03. > :05:06.of the European Parliament as well, there will be too many people
:05:07. > :05:11.throbbing spanners in the works and quite rightly. We have embarked on
:05:12. > :05:15.something that is truly terrible and disastrous, and the imagery we can
:05:16. > :05:20.have of those 27 countries celebrating together 60 years of the
:05:21. > :05:23.most extraordinary successful movement for peace, for shared
:05:24. > :05:30.European values, and others not there... We were not there at the
:05:31. > :05:37.start either, and we are not there now! And we have been bad partners
:05:38. > :05:41.while we were inside, but now that we are leaving... They did not look
:05:42. > :05:47.like it was a birthday party to me! I think it was, there was a sense of
:05:48. > :05:52.renewal, Europe exists as a place envied in the world for its values,
:05:53. > :05:56.for its peacefulness, that is why people flocked to its borders, that
:05:57. > :06:02.is why they come here. Can you look at the agenda that faces the UK
:06:03. > :06:06.Government and EU 27, is it not possible, in fact even likely, that
:06:07. > :06:13.as the process comes to an end they will have to agree on a number of
:06:14. > :06:18.areas of transitional arrangements? I think they will and they will have
:06:19. > :06:21.to agree that soon, I would not be surprised if sometime soon there is
:06:22. > :06:25.an understanding is not a formal decision that this is a process that
:06:26. > :06:29.will extend over something closer to buy or seven than two years. On
:06:30. > :06:32.Wednesday article 50 will be filed and there will be lots of excitement
:06:33. > :06:37.and hubbub but nothing concrete can happen for a while. Elections in
:06:38. > :06:41.France in May, elections in Germany which could really result in a
:06:42. > :06:53.change of Government... That is the big change, Mrs Merkel might not be
:06:54. > :06:56.there by October. And who foresaw that a few months ago? So you might
:06:57. > :06:58.be into 28 Dean before you are into the substantive discussions about
:06:59. > :07:00.how much market access or regulatory observance. I cannot see it being
:07:01. > :07:04.completed in two years. I could see, if negotiations are not too
:07:05. > :07:08.acrimonious, that transitional agreement taking place. Let's look
:07:09. > :07:12.at the timetable again. The council doesn't meet until the end of April,
:07:13. > :07:15.it meets in the middle of the French elections, the first round will have
:07:16. > :07:19.taken place, they will need a second round so not much can happen.
:07:20. > :07:25.President Hollande will be representing France, then the new
:07:26. > :07:30.French government, if it is Marine le Pen all bets are off, but even if
:07:31. > :07:34.it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a party, he will not have a majority,
:07:35. > :07:39.the French will take a long while to sort out themselves. Then it is
:07:40. > :07:43.summer, we are off to the Cote d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian
:07:44. > :07:48.elite, then we come back from that and the Germans are in an election,
:07:49. > :07:53.it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr
:07:54. > :08:05.Schultz, he may have to try to form a difficult green red coalition,
:08:06. > :08:08.that would take a while. Before you know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and
:08:09. > :08:11.no substance has taken place, yet we are then less than a year before
:08:12. > :08:13.this has to be decided. It is a big task and I'm sure Jana is right that
:08:14. > :08:16.there will be transitional arrangements and not everything will
:08:17. > :08:20.be concluded in that two year timetable, but in some respects what
:08:21. > :08:25.you have described helps those of us on the Eurosceptic site because it
:08:26. > :08:28.means they cannot really be a meaningful parliamentary vote on the
:08:29. > :08:32.terms of the deal because nothing is going to be agreed quickly enough
:08:33. > :08:36.for them to be able to go back and agree something else if Parliament
:08:37. > :08:39.rejects it, so when the Government eventually have something ready to
:08:40. > :08:45.bring before Parliament it will be a take it or leave it boat. How
:08:46. > :08:48.extraordinary that people who have campaigned. Indeed give us our
:08:49. > :08:51.country back and say, isn't it wonderful, we won't have a
:08:52. > :08:56.meaningful boat for our parliamentarians of the most
:08:57. > :09:00.important... We don't know what the negotiation, the package is, day by
:09:01. > :09:03.day we see more and more complicated areas nobody ever thought about,
:09:04. > :09:10.nobody mentioned during the campaign, all of which has to be
:09:11. > :09:14.resolved and the European Council and the negotiators say nothing is
:09:15. > :09:20.agreed until everything is agreed. You lead us into a catastrophe.
:09:21. > :09:23.There will be plenty of opportunity for Parliament to have its say
:09:24. > :09:27.following the introduction of the Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if
:09:28. > :09:32.there will be no Parliamentary time devoted. The final package is what
:09:33. > :09:37.counts. We have two years to blog about this!
:09:38. > :09:47.There was a big Proview -- pro-EU march yesterday... I was there!
:09:48. > :09:51.Polly Toynbee was there, down to Parliament Square, lots of people
:09:52. > :09:56.there marching in favour of the European Union. We can see the EU
:09:57. > :10:02.flags there on flags, lots of national flags as well, the British
:10:03. > :10:11.one. Polly, is it the aim of people like you still to stop Brexit, or to
:10:12. > :10:16.soften Brexit? I think the aim is for the best you can possibly do to
:10:17. > :10:19.limit the damage. Of course, if it happens that once people have had a
:10:20. > :10:23.chance to see how much they were lied to during the campaign and how
:10:24. > :10:27.dreadful the deal is likely to be, if it happens that enough people in
:10:28. > :10:33.the population have changed their minds, then maybe... There is no
:10:34. > :10:36.sign up yet. But we have not even begun, people have not begun to
:10:37. > :10:41.confront what it is going to mean. Wait and see. I think it is just
:10:42. > :10:46.being as close as we can. Is that credible, do you think, to stop it
:10:47. > :10:50.or to ameliorate it in terms of the Remainers? I think it is far more
:10:51. > :10:55.credible to try and stop it but even then the scope is limited. It is
:10:56. > :10:57.fairly apparent Theresa May's interpretation of the referendum is
:10:58. > :11:18.the country wants an end to free movement, there is probably no way
:11:19. > :11:20.of doing that inside the single market. She also wants external
:11:21. > :11:23.trade deals, no way of doing that outside the customs unit, said the
:11:24. > :11:25.only night you can depend if you are pro-European is, let's not leave
:11:26. > :11:27.without any trade pact, at least let's meet Canada and have a
:11:28. > :11:30.formalised trade agreement. The idea of ace -- of a very soft exit is
:11:31. > :11:33.gone now because the public really did want an end to free movement and
:11:34. > :11:35.the Government really does want external trade deals. It depends
:11:36. > :11:43.what changes in Europe. I think the momentum behind the Remoaning
:11:44. > :11:48.movement will move away. One of the banners I saw being held up
:11:49. > :11:52.yesterday by a young boy on the news was, don't put my daddy on a boat.
:11:53. > :11:56.It gets a lot of its moral force from the uncertainty surrounding the
:11:57. > :12:01.fate of EU nationals here and our resident in the remainder of the EU
:12:02. > :12:05.and I think David Lidington is right that it will be concluded quite
:12:06. > :12:09.quickly once negotiations start and that will take a lot of the heat and
:12:10. > :12:14.momentum out of the remaining movement. Why didn't Theresa May
:12:15. > :12:18.allow that amendment that said, we will do that, as an act of
:12:19. > :12:22.generosity, we will say, of course those European citizens here are
:12:23. > :12:26.welcome to stay? It would have been such a good opening move in the
:12:27. > :12:32.negotiations, instead of which she blocked it. It does not augur well.
:12:33. > :12:36.I have interviewed many Tories about this and put that point to them but
:12:37. > :12:43.they often say the Prime minister's job is to look after UK citizen in
:12:44. > :12:48.the EU... Bargaining chips, I think you have to be generous and you have
:12:49. > :12:51.to wish you people in Spain and everywhere else where there are
:12:52. > :12:54.British citizens would have responded. The British Government
:12:55. > :12:57.did try and raise that with their EU counterparts and were told, we
:12:58. > :13:02.cannot begin to talk about that until article 50 has been triggered.
:13:03. > :13:05.Next week we will be able to talk about it. How generous it would have
:13:06. > :13:10.been, we would have started on a better note. Didn't happen, we will
:13:11. > :13:14.see what happens next with EU citizens. That is it for today, the
:13:15. > :13:16.Daily Politics will be back tomorrow at midday and every day next week on
:13:17. > :13:19.BBC Two as always. And there's also a Question Time
:13:20. > :13:21.special live tomorrow night from Birmingham -
:13:22. > :13:23.with guests including the Brexit Secretary David Davis,
:13:24. > :13:25.Labour's Keir Starmer, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage
:13:26. > :13:27.and the SNP's Alex Salmond - I'll be back next week
:13:28. > :13:33.at 11am here on BBC One. Until then, remember -
:13:34. > :13:36.if it's Sunday, it's MUSIC: The Elements
:13:37. > :14:43.by Tom Lehrer # There's Attenborough, micro.bit,
:14:44. > :14:47.The Bottom Line and In Our Time