:00:37. > :00:40.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.Theresa May unveils plans to build many more affordable homes
:00:44. > :00:46.in England, but with no price tag, timetable or building targets -
:00:47. > :00:53.Labour takes aim at the City with what it calls a Robin Hood Tax
:00:54. > :00:55.to fund public services, but will traders just
:00:56. > :00:59.Don't look at the polls - Jeremy Corbyn, at least,
:01:00. > :01:02.insists he can win this election - so which way will
:01:03. > :01:08.As the General Election approaches, group in Leeds.
:01:09. > :01:10.we explore which party has the best ideas
:01:11. > :01:15.to sort out problems on our roads and railways.
:01:16. > :01:17.and here, what the parties are saying about tackling the air
:01:18. > :01:25.pollution problem in London. And with me, our own scientifically
:01:26. > :01:28.selected focus group of political pundits -
:01:29. > :01:31.they're not so much undecided as clueless -
:01:32. > :01:33.Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott They'll be tweeting
:01:34. > :01:40.throughout the programme. So, we've got two new
:01:41. > :01:42.policies this morning. Labour say they will introduce
:01:43. > :01:44.a financial transaction tax if they win the general election
:01:45. > :01:47.and what they're calling "the biggest crackdown on tax
:01:48. > :01:49.avoidance in the country's history". The Conservatives say they'll work
:01:50. > :01:51.with local authorities in England to build council houses
:01:52. > :01:54.with the right to buy. Theresa May says the policy
:01:55. > :01:56."will help thousands of people get on the first rung
:01:57. > :02:08.of the housing ladder". Steve, what do you make of them? I
:02:09. > :02:13.have been conditioned after doing tax and spend debates in
:02:14. > :02:17.pre-election periods for many decades to treat policy is not as
:02:18. > :02:21.literal but as arguments. In other words if you look back to 2015 the
:02:22. > :02:26.Tory plan to wipe out the deficit was never going to happen and yet it
:02:27. > :02:30.framed and large event. In that sense the Robin Hood tax is a
:02:31. > :02:35.sensible move for Labour to make at this point because it is part of a
:02:36. > :02:38.narrative of reconfiguring taxation to be fair. Treating it as an
:02:39. > :02:45.argument rather than something that would happen in day one of Labour
:02:46. > :02:48.government is sensible. In terms of building houses Theresa May said
:02:49. > :02:51.right from the beginning when she was in Number Ten that there is a
:02:52. > :02:55.housing deficit in this country rather than the economic deficit
:02:56. > :03:00.George Osborne was focusing on, and this is an example of trying to get
:03:01. > :03:04.house-building going. It seems entirely sensible, not sure how it
:03:05. > :03:09.works with right to buy but again as framing of a 90 minute it makes
:03:10. > :03:17.sense. I disagree with Steve on one front which is how sensible Theresa
:03:18. > :03:21.May's policy is on the housing announcement. I think more broadly
:03:22. > :03:24.these two announcements have something in common which is that
:03:25. > :03:31.over the next 24 hours both will probably unravel in different ways.
:03:32. > :03:35.Ye of little faith! The Mayor of London has already said he doesn't
:03:36. > :03:41.agree with this, and when people see the actual impact of what looks like
:03:42. > :03:46.a populist tax will very potentially affect people's pensions, it might
:03:47. > :03:50.become a lot less popular. On the Tory housing plans, I think it is
:03:51. > :03:55.difficult to imagine how they are going to implement this huge, what
:03:56. > :04:00.looks like a huge land and property grab. Through compulsory purchase
:04:01. > :04:04.orders, which are not a simple instrument. They say they will
:04:05. > :04:08.change the law but really the idea of paying people below the market
:04:09. > :04:13.value for their assets is not something I can see sitting easily
:04:14. > :04:20.with Tory backbenchers or the Tories in the House of Lords. Tom. Both
:04:21. > :04:24.would appear superficially to be appealing to traditional left and
:04:25. > :04:31.traditional right bases. What is more Tory than right to buy, then
:04:32. > :04:38.councils sell on these houses, and Labour slapping a massive tax on the
:04:39. > :04:41.city. The Tories' plan, I would say look a bit deeper and all of the
:04:42. > :04:46.Tory narrative from the last six years which hasn't worked well is
:04:47. > :04:50.talking about the private sector increasing supply in the market. Now
:04:51. > :04:58.Mrs May is talking about the role for the state after all so this is
:04:59. > :05:02.the shift creeping in. On the Labour transaction tax, one of the most
:05:03. > :05:09.interesting things I heard in days was from Paul Mason, former BBC
:05:10. > :05:12.correspondent, now a cog in Easter extreme. On Newsnight he said don't
:05:13. > :05:17.worry about whether the Labour manifesto will add up, I'm promising
:05:18. > :05:24.it will, the bigger Tory attack line should be what on earth will be the
:05:25. > :05:29.macroeconomic effect of taking so much tax out of the system. Very
:05:30. > :05:32.well, we shall see. At least we have some policies to talk about.
:05:33. > :05:34.Now, on Tuesday Labour will launch its manifesto.
:05:35. > :05:37.But we've already got a pretty good idea of what's in it -
:05:38. > :05:39.that's because most of its contents were leaked to the media
:05:40. > :05:48.Labour has a variety of spending pledges including an extra
:05:49. > :05:51.?6 billion a year for the NHS, an additional ?8 billion for social
:05:52. > :05:53.care over the lifetime of the next parliament,
:05:54. > :05:55.as well as a ?250 billion in infrastructure over
:05:56. > :06:03.The party will support the renewal of the Trident submarine system,
:06:04. > :06:04.although any Prime Minister should be extremely cautious
:06:05. > :06:07.about its use, and the party will hold a strategic defence
:06:08. > :06:10.and security review immediately after the election.
:06:11. > :06:12.In terms of immigration, Labour will seek "reasonable
:06:13. > :06:14.management of migration", but it will not make "false
:06:15. > :06:20.Elsewhere, university tuition fees will be abolished,
:06:21. > :06:23.and the public sector pay cap, which limits pay rises
:06:24. > :06:27.for public sector workers to 1%, will be scrapped.
:06:28. > :06:30.The party also aims to renationalise the railways, the Royal Mail
:06:31. > :06:37.and the National Grid, as well as creating at least one
:06:38. > :06:42.A senior Labour backbencher described it to the Sunday Politics
:06:43. > :06:45.as a manifesto for a leadership who don't "give a toss
:06:46. > :06:47.about the wider public", and several other Labour candidates
:06:48. > :06:49.told us they thought it had been deliberately
:06:50. > :06:53.leaked by the leadership, with one suggesting
:06:54. > :06:55.the leak was intended to "bounce the National Executive"
:06:56. > :06:58.And we're joined now from Salford by the Shadow Business Secretary,
:06:59. > :07:07.Welcome to the programme. The draft manifesto proposed to renationalise
:07:08. > :07:11.the number of industry. You will wait for the franchises to run out
:07:12. > :07:16.rather than buy them out at the moment so can you confirm the
:07:17. > :07:20.railways will not be wholly nationalised until 2030, after three
:07:21. > :07:26.Labour governments, and Jeremy Corbyn will be 80? I'm not going to
:07:27. > :07:33.comment on leaks, you will just have to be patient and wait to see what
:07:34. > :07:37.is in our manifesto. But you have already announced you will
:07:38. > :07:42.nationalise the railways, so tell me about it. We have discussed taking
:07:43. > :07:46.the franchises into public ownership as they expire, however the detail
:07:47. > :07:51.will be set out in the manifesto so I'm not prepared to go into detail
:07:52. > :07:55.until that policy is formally laid out on Tuesday. That doesn't sound
:07:56. > :08:02.very hopeful but let's carry on. You will also nationalise the National
:08:03. > :08:07.Grid, it has a market capitalisation of ?40 billion, why do you want to
:08:08. > :08:12.nationalise that? Again, I'm not going to speculate on leaks, you
:08:13. > :08:18.will just have to be patient. But you said you will nationalise the
:08:19. > :08:22.National Grid so tell's Y. The leaks have suggested but you will just
:08:23. > :08:26.have to wait and see what the final manifesto states on that one. So is
:08:27. > :08:31.it a waste of time me asking you how you will pay for something that
:08:32. > :08:37.costs 40 billion? Be patient, just couple of days to go, but what I
:08:38. > :08:41.would say is there is growing pressure from the public to reform
:08:42. > :08:44.the utilities sector. The Competition and Markets Authority
:08:45. > :08:50.stated in 2015 that bill payers were paying over till debt -- ?2 billion
:08:51. > :08:56.in excess of what they should be paying so there is a clear need for
:08:57. > :08:59.reform. The bills we get are from the energy companies, you are not
:09:00. > :09:03.going to nationalise them, you are going to nationalise the
:09:04. > :09:08.distribution company and I wondered what is the case for nationalising
:09:09. > :09:13.the distribution company? As I said, our full plans will be set out on
:09:14. > :09:16.Tuesday. In relation to the big six energy companies, we know in recent
:09:17. > :09:24.years they have been overcharging customers... There's no point in
:09:25. > :09:30.answering questions I am not asking. I am asking what is the case for
:09:31. > :09:33.nationalising the National Grid? There is a case for reforming the
:09:34. > :09:37.energy sector as a whole and that looks at the activities of the big
:09:38. > :09:43.six companies and it will look at other aspects too. You will have to
:09:44. > :09:49.be patient and wait until Tuesday. What about the Royal Mail? Again,
:09:50. > :09:54.you will have to wait until Tuesday. Why can't you just be honest with
:09:55. > :10:01.the British voter? We know you are going to do this and you have a duty
:10:02. > :10:07.to explain. I'm not even arguing whether it is right or wrong. The
:10:08. > :10:11.Royal Mail was sold off and we know it was sold under value and British
:10:12. > :10:15.taxpayers have a reason to feel aggrieved about that. There is a
:10:16. > :10:18.long-term strategy that would ensure the Royal Mail was classified as a
:10:19. > :10:24.key piece of infrastructure but the details of that will be set out in
:10:25. > :10:26.our manifesto because we want to ensure businesses and households
:10:27. > :10:32.ensure the best quality of service when it comes to their postal
:10:33. > :10:37.providers. You plan to borrow an extra 25 billion per year, John
:10:38. > :10:41.McDonnell has already announced this, on public investment, on top
:10:42. > :10:46.of the around 50 billion already being planned for investment. You
:10:47. > :10:54.will borrow it all so that means, if you can confirm, that many years
:10:55. > :11:01.after the crash by 2021, Labour government would still be borrowing
:11:02. > :11:07.75 billion a year. Is that correct? We have set out ?250 billion of
:11:08. > :11:11.capital investment, and ?250 billion for a national investment bank. Our
:11:12. > :11:15.financial and fiscal rules dictate we will leave the Government in a
:11:16. > :11:18.state of less debt than we found it at the start of the parliament so we
:11:19. > :11:25.won't increase the national debt at the end of our Parliamentary term.
:11:26. > :11:29.How can you do that if by 2021 you will still be borrowing around 75
:11:30. > :11:35.billion a year, which is more than we borrow at the moment? The 500
:11:36. > :11:40.billion figure is set out over a period of ten years, it's a figure
:11:41. > :11:43.that has been suggested by Peter Helm from Oxford University as a
:11:44. > :11:47.figure that is necessary to bring us in line with other industrial
:11:48. > :11:55.competitors. Similar figures have been suggested by groups such as the
:11:56. > :11:59.CBI. By the way I have not included all 500 billion, just the 250
:12:00. > :12:04.billion on public spending, not the extra money. You talk about the
:12:05. > :12:09.fiscal rules. The draft manifesto said you will leave debt as a
:12:10. > :12:16.proportion of trend GDP law at the end of each parliament, you have
:12:17. > :12:20.just said a version of that. What is trend GDP? In clear terms we will
:12:21. > :12:24.ensure the debt we acquire will be reduced by the end of the
:12:25. > :12:31.parliament. We won't leave the Government finances in a worse state
:12:32. > :12:35.than we found them. OK, but what is trend GDP? Our rule is we will
:12:36. > :12:40.ensure public sector net debt is less than we found it when we came
:12:41. > :12:48.to power in Government on June the 8th. But that is not what your draft
:12:49. > :12:51.manifesto says. I'm not going to comment on leaks, you are just going
:12:52. > :12:56.to have to wait until Tuesday to look at the fine detail and perhaps
:12:57. > :13:00.we will have another chat then. You have published your plans for
:13:01. > :13:04.corporation tax and you will increase it by a third and your
:13:05. > :13:09.predictions assumed that will get an extra 20 billion a year by the end
:13:10. > :13:13.of the parliament. But that assumes the companies don't change their
:13:14. > :13:18.behaviour, that they move money around, they leave the country or
:13:19. > :13:23.they generate smaller profits. Is that realistic? You are right to
:13:24. > :13:27.make that point and you will see when we set out our policies and
:13:28. > :13:33.costings in the manifesto that we haven't spent all of the tax take.
:13:34. > :13:35.We have allowed for different differentials and potential changes
:13:36. > :13:40.in market activity because that would be approved and direction to
:13:41. > :13:48.take. But corporation tax is allowed to be cut in France and the United
:13:49. > :13:51.States, it's only 12.5% in Dublin. Many companies based in Britain are
:13:52. > :13:56.already wondering whether they should relocate because of Brexit,
:13:57. > :14:01.if you increase this tax by a third couldn't that clinch it for a number
:14:02. > :14:06.of them? No, we will still be one of the lowest corporation tax rate in
:14:07. > :14:11.the G7. Let's look at what's important for business. Cutting
:14:12. > :14:15.corporation tax in itself doesn't improve productivity, or business
:14:16. > :14:18.investment and there's no suggestion cutting corporation tax in recent
:14:19. > :14:24.years has achieved that. Businesses need an investment in tools in
:14:25. > :14:29.things they need to thrive and prosper, they also need to reduce
:14:30. > :14:34.the burden at the lower end of the tax scale, before we get to the
:14:35. > :14:41.Prophet stage. One key example is business rates. We have made the
:14:42. > :14:44.proposal to government to in -- exclude machinery so businesses can
:14:45. > :14:51.invest and grow operations in the future but the Government refused.
:14:52. > :15:01.Corporation tax has been cut since 2010. When it was 28% it brought in
:15:02. > :15:07.?43 billion a year. Now it is down to 20%, it brought in ?55 billion a
:15:08. > :15:14.year. By cutting it in the last year, it brought in 21% more, so
:15:15. > :15:18.what is the problem? It might have brought in more money, but has it
:15:19. > :15:24.increased business investment in the long term. It is not just about
:15:25. > :15:28.cutting corporation tax, but it is on the ability of businesses to
:15:29. > :15:34.thrive and prosper. Business investment in the UK is below are
:15:35. > :15:41.industrial competitors. Wages are stagnating which doesn't indicate
:15:42. > :15:45.businesses are not doing well. Let me get it right, you are arguing if
:15:46. > :15:52.we increase business tax by a third, that will increase investment? I am
:15:53. > :16:00.not saying that. You just did. Know I didn't, I said reducing business
:16:01. > :16:03.tax isn't enough, you have to invest in the things businesses need to
:16:04. > :16:15.thrive and prosper. You have also got to lessen the burden on
:16:16. > :16:20.business. You have announced a financial transaction tax. Your own
:16:21. > :16:25.labour Mayor of London said he has vowed to fight it. He said I do not
:16:26. > :16:30.want a unilateral tax on business in our city, so why are you proceeding
:16:31. > :16:34.with it? This isn't a new initiative, there is a growing
:16:35. > :16:38.global pressure to make sure we have fairness in the financial sector.
:16:39. > :16:44.Ordinary British people are paying for our banking crisis they didn't
:16:45. > :16:49.cause. Another important point, stamp duty reserve tax was brought
:16:50. > :16:53.in in the 1600 and there have been little reforms. The sector has
:16:54. > :16:58.changed and we have do provide changes to the system for that
:16:59. > :17:02.change. High-frequency trading where we have a state of affairs where a
:17:03. > :17:07.lot of shares are traded on computers within milliseconds. We
:17:08. > :17:14.need a tax system that keeps up with that. What happens if they move the
:17:15. > :17:19.computers to another country? Emily Thornaby said this morning, other
:17:20. > :17:22.countries had already introduced a financial transaction tax, what
:17:23. > :17:30.other countries have done that? There are ten countries looking at
:17:31. > :17:37.introducing a transaction tax. Which ones have done it so far? They will
:17:38. > :17:41.be later announcing a final package, going through the finer detail at
:17:42. > :17:46.the moment. But the European Commission tried to get this done in
:17:47. > :17:51.2011 and it still hasn't happened in any of these countries. But you are
:17:52. > :17:56.going to go ahead unilaterally and risk these businesses, which
:17:57. > :18:00.generate a lot of money, moving to other jurisdictions. There is not a
:18:01. > :18:11.significant risk of that happening. The stamp duty reserve tax is levied
:18:12. > :18:16.at either where the person or company is domiciled or where the
:18:17. > :18:21.instrument is issued rather than worth the transaction takes place.
:18:22. > :18:24.This tax in itself is not enough to make people leave this country in
:18:25. > :18:29.terms of financial services because there is more to keep these
:18:30. > :18:33.businesses here in terms of the investment we are making, the
:18:34. > :18:37.economy that Labour will build, in terms of productivity improvement we
:18:38. > :18:41.will see. Thank you very much, Rebecca Long-Bailey.
:18:42. > :18:47.And listening to that was the Home Office Minister, Brandon Lewis.
:18:48. > :18:53.Over the years, you have got corporation tax by 20%, it is lower
:18:54. > :19:00.than international standards, so why are so many global companies who
:19:01. > :19:05.make money out of Great Britain, still not paying 20%? It is one of
:19:06. > :19:08.the problems with the point Labour were making and Rebecca could not
:19:09. > :19:14.answer, these companies can move around the world. One of the
:19:15. > :19:18.important things is having a low tax economy but these businesses, it
:19:19. > :19:23.encourages them to come at a rate they are prepared to pay. People may
:19:24. > :19:29.say they are right, if they were paying 19, 20% incorporation tax.
:19:30. > :19:38.But they are not. Google runs a multi-million pound corporation and
:19:39. > :19:41.did not pay anywhere near 20%. There are companies that are trading
:19:42. > :19:50.internationally and that is why we have to get this work done with our
:19:51. > :19:54.partners around the world. Has there been an improvement? It is more than
:19:55. > :19:58.they were paying before. Whether it is Google or any other company,
:19:59. > :20:04.alongside them being here, apart from the tax they pay, it is the
:20:05. > :20:08.people they employ. The deal was, if you cut the business tax, the
:20:09. > :20:13.corporation tax on profits, we would get more companies coming here and
:20:14. > :20:17.more companies paying their tax. It seems it doesn't matter how low, a
:20:18. > :20:24.number of companies just pay a derisory amount and you haven't been
:20:25. > :20:26.able to change that. As you outlined, the income taken from the
:20:27. > :20:34.changing corporation tax has gone up. That is from established British
:20:35. > :20:37.companies, not from these international companies. It is
:20:38. > :20:41.because more companies are coming here and paying tax. That is a good
:20:42. > :20:47.thing. There is always more to do and that is why we want to crack
:20:48. > :20:51.down. In the last few weeks in the Finnish Parliament, Labour refused
:20:52. > :20:57.to put to another ?8.7 billion of tax take we could have got by
:20:58. > :21:02.cracking down further. You claim to have made great progress on cracking
:21:03. > :21:07.down on people and companies to pay the tax they should. But the tax gap
:21:08. > :21:13.is the difference between what HMRC takes in and what it should take in.
:21:14. > :21:19.It has barely moved in five years, so where is the progress? He have
:21:20. > :21:23.brought in 150 billion more where we have cracked down on those tax
:21:24. > :21:33.schemes. The gap is still the same as it was five years ago. It's gone
:21:34. > :21:35.from 6.8, 26.5. It has gone down. The Prime Minister and the
:21:36. > :21:40.Chancellor said they want to continue work on to get more money
:21:41. > :21:46.on these companies while still having a competitive rate to
:21:47. > :21:51.encourage these companies. While big business and the wealthy continue to
:21:52. > :21:54.prosper, the Office for Budget Responsibility tell us those on
:21:55. > :22:00.average earnings in this country will be earning less in real terms
:22:01. > :22:06.by 2021 than they did in 2008. How can that be fair? I don't see it
:22:07. > :22:10.that way. I haven't seen the figures you have got. What I can say to you,
:22:11. > :22:15.Andrew, we have made sure the minimum wage has gone up, the actual
:22:16. > :22:25.income tax people pay has gone down. So in their pocket, real terms,
:22:26. > :22:27.people have more money. You are the self-styled party of work. We keep
:22:28. > :22:31.emphasising work. Under your government you can work for 13 years
:22:32. > :22:37.and still not earn any more at the end of it, and you did at the start.
:22:38. > :22:43.Where is the reward for effort in that? I have not seen those figures.
:22:44. > :22:49.There are 2.8 million more people, more jobs in economy than there was.
:22:50. > :22:53.1000 jobs every day and people are working and developing through their
:22:54. > :22:57.careers. This is what I thought was odd in what Rebecca was saying,
:22:58. > :23:01.investing in people is what the apprenticeship levy is about,
:23:02. > :23:07.companies are investing their works force to take more opportunities
:23:08. > :23:10.that there. We are talking about fairness, politicians talk about
:23:11. > :23:15.hard-working people and we know the average earnings are no higher than
:23:16. > :23:20.they were in 2008. We know the pay and bonuses of senior executives
:23:21. > :23:23.have continued to grow and the Institute for Fiscal Studies has
:23:24. > :23:29.shown 3 million of the poorest households will lose an average of
:23:30. > :23:35.?2500 a year in the next Parliament, benefits frozen, further sanctions
:23:36. > :23:39.kick in. 3 million of the poorest losing 2500. Under the Tories, one
:23:40. > :23:45.law for the rich and another for the poor. It is quite wrong. First of
:23:46. > :23:50.all, we have got to be fair to the taxpayer who is funding the welfare
:23:51. > :23:56.and benefit system. Which is why the welfare was right. Get more people
:23:57. > :24:03.in work and then it is important to get more people upscaling. As that
:24:04. > :24:08.allowance rises, people have more of the money they earn in their pocket
:24:09. > :24:14.to be able to use in the economy. People will be worse off. 2500,
:24:15. > :24:20.among the poorest already. They will have more money in their pocket as
:24:21. > :24:26.we increase the allowance before people pay tax. We have seen
:24:27. > :24:30.millions of people coming out of tax altogether. The reason I ask these
:24:31. > :24:35.questions, you and the Prime Minister go on and on about the just
:24:36. > :24:39.about managing classes. I am talking about the just about managing and
:24:40. > :24:43.below that. It is all talk, you haven't done anything for them. We
:24:44. > :24:48.have made sure they have an increasing minimum wage, it has gone
:24:49. > :24:54.up more under us than any other previous government. Their wages
:24:55. > :24:59.will be still lower in real terms. Let me come on to this plan for
:25:00. > :25:04.housing. We have announced a new plan to increase affordable housing,
:25:05. > :25:08.social housing, some council housing and social housing built by the
:25:09. > :25:12.associations. How much money is behind this? It is part of the 1.4
:25:13. > :25:20.billion announced in the Autumn Statement. How many homes will you
:25:21. > :25:23.get for 1.4 billion? That depends on the negotiations with local
:25:24. > :25:30.authorities. It is local authorities, who know the area best.
:25:31. > :25:34.I will not put a number on that. 1.4 billion, if you price the house at
:25:35. > :25:40.100,000, which is very low, particularly for the South, back at
:25:41. > :25:45.you 14,000 new homes. That is it. What we have seen before, how the
:25:46. > :25:49.local government can leveraged to build thousands more homes. That is
:25:50. > :25:53.what we want to see across the country. It is not just about the
:25:54. > :25:56.money, for a lot of local authorities it is about the
:25:57. > :26:02.expertise and knowledge on how to do this. That is why support from the
:26:03. > :26:08.housing communities minister will help. What is the timescale, how
:26:09. > :26:13.many more affordable homes will be built? I will not put a number on
:26:14. > :26:18.it. You announced it today, so you cannot tell me how many more or what
:26:19. > :26:21.the target is? It is a matter of working with the local authorities
:26:22. > :26:25.who know what their local needs are, what land they have got available.
:26:26. > :26:30.What we saw through the local elections with the Metro mayors,
:26:31. > :26:33.they want to deliver in their areas, whether it is the West of England,
:26:34. > :26:38.the north-east, Liverpool, Manchester and we want to work with
:26:39. > :26:42.them. You have said variations of this for the past seven years and I
:26:43. > :26:48.want some credibility. When you cannot tell us how much money, what
:26:49. > :26:51.the target and timescale is, and this government, under which
:26:52. > :26:57.affordable house building has fallen to a 24 year low. 1.2 million
:26:58. > :27:03.families are on waiting lists for social housing to rent. That is your
:27:04. > :27:07.record. Why should we believe a word you say? This is different to what
:27:08. > :27:12.we have been doing over the last two years. We want to develop and have a
:27:13. > :27:19.strong and stable economy that can sustain that 1.4 billion homes. This
:27:20. > :27:25.is important. In 2010, we inherited the lowest level of house building,
:27:26. > :27:30.75,000 new homes. That is about 189,000 over the last four years.
:27:31. > :27:34.That is a big step forward after the crash, getting people back into the
:27:35. > :27:45.industry. More first-time buyers onto the market. Final question, in
:27:46. > :27:50.2010, 2011, your first year in government, there were 60,000
:27:51. > :27:58.affordable homes built. May not be enough, but last day it was 30 2000.
:27:59. > :28:05.So why should we trust anything you say about this? On housing, we have
:28:06. > :28:11.delivered. We have delivered more social housing. Double what Labour
:28:12. > :28:15.did in 13 years, in just five years. This is what this policy is about,
:28:16. > :28:16.working with local authorities to deliver more homes to people in
:28:17. > :28:20.their local areas. Thank you. Now, they have a deficit
:28:21. > :28:23.of between 15 and 20% in the polls, but Jeremy Corbyn and those
:28:24. > :28:26.around him insist Labour can win. If the polls are right they've got
:28:27. > :28:29.three and half weeks to change voters' minds and persuade those
:28:30. > :28:31.fabled undecided voters We enlisted the polling organisation
:28:32. > :28:36.YouGov to help us find out how the performance of party leaders
:28:37. > :28:38.will affect behaviour Leeds, a city of three quarters
:28:39. > :28:47.of a million people, eight Parliamentary seats and home
:28:48. > :28:52.to our very own focus group. Our panel was recruited
:28:53. > :28:55.from a variety of backgrounds and the majority say they haven't
:28:56. > :28:59.decided who to vote for yet. Watching behind the glass,
:29:00. > :29:01.two experts on different sides Giles Cunningham, who headed up
:29:02. > :29:08.political press at Downing Street under David Cameron
:29:09. > :29:15.and Aaron Bastani, Corbin supporter, under David Cameron
:29:16. > :29:17.and Aaron Bastani, Corbyn supporter, I think Theresa May sees herself
:29:18. > :29:21.as a pound shop Thatcher. Milliband's policies but when it
:29:22. > :29:41.came about who you want,
:29:42. > :29:45.if you wake up on maybe a 2015, We found in a couple of focus
:29:46. > :29:48.groups, people saying we'd be quite relieved,
:29:49. > :29:51.even though some of those same people have been saying we quite
:29:52. > :29:53.like the Labour policies. I think the fact that Corbyn's
:29:54. > :29:58.going so hard on his values, this is a really progressive
:29:59. > :30:00.manifesto, they live But I think that's a new challenge,
:30:01. > :30:04.that wasn't there in 2015. Is there anyone here that
:30:05. > :30:06.you don't recognise? After a little warm up,
:30:07. > :30:08.the first exercise, recognising I think it's nice to have a strong
:30:09. > :30:15.woman in politics, I do. But I've got to say,
:30:16. > :30:17.when she comes on the news, I kind of do think,
:30:18. > :30:20.here we go again. Tell me about Tim Farron, what
:30:21. > :30:22.are your impressions of Tim Farron? It isn't going to do anything,
:30:23. > :30:27.it isn't going to change anything. You'll be surprised to hear it's
:30:28. > :30:35.actually the Greens. Strong and stable leadership
:30:36. > :30:48.in the national interest. Yes, Team May, it's
:30:49. > :30:53.the British equivalent of make What do we think about this one
:30:54. > :31:03.for the many and not the few? It's not quite as bad
:31:04. > :31:05.as strong and stable, but it will probably get
:31:06. > :31:07.on our nerves after a while. We must seize that chance today
:31:08. > :31:18.and every day until June the 8th. But that's not quite my
:31:19. > :31:26.question, my question is, if you are Prime Minister,
:31:27. > :31:28.we will leave, come hell or high water, whatever is on the table
:31:29. > :31:32.at the end of the negotiations? If we win the election,
:31:33. > :31:34.we'll get a good deal with Europe. Assertive and in control
:31:35. > :31:36.and he felt comfortable But the second one, I thought
:31:37. > :31:41.he was very hesitant. I thought he was kind of,
:31:42. > :31:50.hovering around, skirting around and that's the second
:31:51. > :31:53.time I've seen a similar interview with the question
:31:54. > :31:55.being asked regarding Brexit. I don't think I'd have
:31:56. > :31:57.any confidence with him You think you are going up
:31:58. > :32:00.against some quite strong people, how are you going to stand
:32:01. > :32:03.up for us? When you are in negotiations,
:32:04. > :32:07.you need to be tough. And actually is right
:32:08. > :32:09.to be tough sometimes, particularly when you are doing
:32:10. > :32:11.something for the country. There's a reason for talking
:32:12. > :32:14.about strong and stable leadership. It's about the future
:32:15. > :32:16.of the country, it's It's just that people kind of listen
:32:17. > :32:20.to that kind of thing and think Both on The One Show
:32:21. > :32:26.and in the news. She attracts the public better
:32:27. > :32:32.than what Corbyn does. She didn't answer the question
:32:33. > :32:35.in a more articular way than Corbyn Imagine that Theresa
:32:36. > :32:41.May is an animal. So, in your minds,
:32:42. > :32:44.what animal is coming to mind I've done a Pekinese because I think
:32:45. > :32:58.she's all bark and no bite. Alpaca because she's
:32:59. > :33:05.superior looking and woolly I don't think his policies
:33:06. > :33:20.are for the modern, real world. A mouse because they are weak
:33:21. > :33:24.and they can be easily bullied, but also they can catch
:33:25. > :33:26.you by surprise if you're What do you take away
:33:27. > :33:34.from what you saw then, and what message would you send back
:33:35. > :33:37.to the Tories now? I think what came over is people see
:33:38. > :33:40.Theresa May as a strong politician, not everyone likes her,
:33:41. > :33:42.but you don't need to be liked to be elected,
:33:43. > :33:45.because ultimately it's about who do you trust with your future
:33:46. > :33:47.and your security. I think what I also take out
:33:48. > :33:50.of that focus group, was it was a group of floating
:33:51. > :33:52.voters, there was no huge appetite for the Lib Dems and there was no
:33:53. > :33:55.huge appetite for Ukip. So my messaged back to CCHQ
:33:56. > :33:58.would be stick to the plan. I thought the response
:33:59. > :34:02.to the manifesto was excellent. It's clear that people aren't
:34:03. > :34:04.particularly keen on Theresa May, There are some associations with her
:34:05. > :34:09.about strength and stability, which is exactly what the Tory party
:34:10. > :34:12.want of course, but they are not positive and nobody thinks
:34:13. > :34:14.that she has a vision So, what I'd say the Jeremy Corbyn,
:34:15. > :34:21.what I'd say to the Labour Party is, they need to really emphasise
:34:22. > :34:23.the manifesto in Jeremy Corbyn himself has to perform
:34:24. > :34:29.out of his skin and I think he has to reemphasise those
:34:30. > :34:32.characteristics which may be have come to the fore may be
:34:33. > :34:34.over the last 12 months, resilience, strength and the fact
:34:35. > :34:37.that he's come this far, why not take that final step and go
:34:38. > :34:39.into ten Downing Street? We're joined now by the American
:34:40. > :34:47.political consultant For the sake of this discussion,
:34:48. > :34:54.assume the polls at the moment are broadly right, is there any hope for
:34:55. > :35:00.Mr Corbyn in the undecided voters? Know, and this is a very serious
:35:01. > :35:03.collection with serious consequences to who wins. Nobody cares whether
:35:04. > :35:08.you can draw and what animal they represent, they want to know where
:35:09. > :35:12.they stand, and I felt that was frivolous. I come to Britain to
:35:13. > :35:17.watch elections because I learned from here. Your elections are more
:35:18. > :35:21.substantial, more serious, more policy and less about personality
:35:22. > :35:26.and that peace was only about personality. That's partly because
:35:27. > :35:36.Mrs May has decided to make this a presidential election. You can see
:35:37. > :35:43.on the posters it is all Team May. I agree with that, and in her language
:35:44. > :35:47.she says not everyone benefits from a Conservative government, I don't
:35:48. > :35:52.see how using anything Republicans have used in the past. In fact her
:35:53. > :35:56.campaign is more of a centrist Democrats but it is a smart strategy
:35:57. > :36:02.because it pushes Corbyn further to the left. Of course you said Hillary
:36:03. > :36:07.Clinton have won. On election night the polling was so bad in America,
:36:08. > :36:13.the exit polls that were done, the BBC told America she had won. No, I
:36:14. > :36:21.was anchoring the programme that night, I ignored your tweet. The BBC
:36:22. > :36:25.had the same numbers. Yes, but we did not say she had won, I can
:36:26. > :36:31.assure you of that. Because of people like you we thought she had
:36:32. > :36:38.but we didn't broadcast it. That was a smart approach. My point is other
:36:39. > :36:43.than teasing you, maybe there is hope for Jeremy Corbyn. I think you
:36:44. > :36:48.will have one of the lowest turnout in modern history and I think Labour
:36:49. > :36:52.will fall to one of the lowest percentages, not percentage of
:36:53. > :36:55.number of seats they have had, and this will be a matter of
:36:56. > :37:01.soul-searching for both political parties. What you do with a sizeable
:37:02. > :37:04.majority, and she has a responsibility to tell the British
:37:05. > :37:10.people exactly what happens as she moves forward. He and Labour will
:37:11. > :37:15.have to take a look at whether they still represent a significant slice
:37:16. > :37:20.of the British population. Do you see a realignment in British
:37:21. > :37:24.politics taking place? I see a crumbling of the left and yet there
:37:25. > :37:28.is still a significant percentage of the British population that once
:37:29. > :37:37.someone who is centre-left. And they like a lot of Mr Corbyn's policies.
:37:38. > :37:40.I'm listening to Michael foot. I went to school here in the 1980s and
:37:41. > :37:43.I feel like I'm watching the Labour Party of 35 years ago, in a
:37:44. > :37:49.population that wants to focus on the future, not the past. Thank you.
:37:50. > :37:51.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:52. > :37:54.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:37:55. > :38:05.I'm Julia George and this is the Sunday Politics
:38:06. > :38:08.This morning, in the first of our general election programmes
:38:09. > :38:10.focusing on key issues affecting the region,
:38:11. > :38:13.we'll be looking at our road and rail services, both sources
:38:14. > :38:17.of increasing frustration for commuters and motorists.
:38:18. > :38:19.To discuss these, I'm joined by Huw Merriman for the Conservatives,
:38:20. > :38:22.Labour's Vince Maple and Chris Bower from the Liberal Democrats.
:38:23. > :38:27.The row between Southern Rail and the unions
:38:28. > :38:30.has rarely been out of the headlines over the past year.
:38:31. > :38:33.Strikes over the rail company's plans to introduce driver only
:38:34. > :38:36.operated trains are costing the South East economy
:38:37. > :38:39.So what can be done to improve our railways?
:38:40. > :38:43.We sent our reporter Briony Williams to find out.
:38:44. > :38:45.Packed trains and commuter chaos have become synonymous
:38:46. > :38:50.with the Southern Rail network over the past 12 months.
:38:51. > :38:54.31 days of strike action called by the RMT Union has made it
:38:55. > :39:00.the worst industrial action to hit the rail industry for 23 years.
:39:01. > :39:04.The year-long dispute over driver only operated trains has affected
:39:05. > :39:09.hundreds of thousands of journeys across 156 stations
:39:10. > :39:16.for people's personal lives and livelihoods.
:39:17. > :39:19.There was a month where I didn't pay myself
:39:20. > :39:21.and, if it had carried on much longer,
:39:22. > :39:29.footfall in the station in general was down,
:39:30. > :39:31.and it had a big knock-on effect on local business,
:39:32. > :39:39.Over the past year, 58,983 trains were fully
:39:40. > :39:44.With the overall cost to the economy and the South East amounting
:39:45. > :39:51.On top of that, the Government has paid out
:39:52. > :39:58.That's not the only problem for commuters in the region.
:39:59. > :40:02.A recent survey by the independent watchdog, Transport Focus,
:40:03. > :40:05.found that Southern was the worst performing train operator
:40:06. > :40:08.in the country, with only 30% of those surveyed saying
:40:09. > :40:10.that their last journey was punctual, and only one in eight
:40:11. > :40:15.saying that the company dealt well with delays.
:40:16. > :40:18.Southeastern and Thameslink didn't fare much better.
:40:19. > :40:22.Southern and Thameslink bosses say it's improved in recent months,
:40:23. > :40:28.Southeastern say many of its passengers
:40:29. > :40:33.and it's investing to improve where it needs to.
:40:34. > :40:36.I think it could be better, but it could be worse.
:40:37. > :40:38.So I'm less unhappy than many of the people
:40:39. > :40:42.who were affected by the strikes, I suspect.
:40:43. > :40:44.Yeah, no, they are very good, very dependable,
:40:45. > :40:50.It's badly managed, it's irregular, it's inconvenient,
:40:51. > :40:59.In Brighton and Hove, the main arguments are...
:41:00. > :41:02.I think if rail was brought back into public ownership,
:41:03. > :41:04.it would help solve some of the problems we've seen
:41:05. > :41:08.not least because you would know where the buck stopped.
:41:09. > :41:10.I mean, trying to fight with Southern over the fact
:41:11. > :41:13.they have had such dreadful service for well over a year now
:41:14. > :41:18.because you never know exactly who is responsible for what,
:41:19. > :41:20.and they duck and they dive and they blame the Government,
:41:21. > :41:24.So, at the very least, we would have real accountability,
:41:25. > :41:26.and I think that's absolutely essential
:41:27. > :41:28.when it comes to our railway services.
:41:29. > :41:30.We should bring our railways back into public ownership,
:41:31. > :41:33.and I think many more people in Brighton think that we should.
:41:34. > :41:35.So, under a Labour government, we're going to renationalise our railways,
:41:36. > :41:37.we're going to have proper investment
:41:38. > :41:38.and deliver a good, publicly owned service.
:41:39. > :41:41.What we need is an ombudsman to champion commuters,
:41:42. > :41:43.and to have accountability so there is somewhere for commuters
:41:44. > :41:49.to go to to get their money back and to champion their rights.
:41:50. > :41:54.And, for those who are impacted day in, day out?
:41:55. > :41:57.I think there needs to be some tangible changes to the way
:41:58. > :42:05.and what the unions are allowed to get away with.
:42:06. > :42:09.With the train drivers union, Aslef, and the RMT Union both due to resume
:42:10. > :42:13.separate talks with the Southern bosses this coming week,
:42:14. > :42:16.there is still no definitive end in sight.
:42:17. > :42:20.So can any of the solutions put forward by the political parties
:42:21. > :42:27.And we've just seen the latest report on rail performance
:42:28. > :42:30.by the regulator, the Office for Rail and Road,
:42:31. > :42:32.which shows Southern's parent company, Govia Thameslink,
:42:33. > :42:39.in terms of cancellations and delays in over a decade.
:42:40. > :42:48.Let's start with you, Chris Bower. Let's clarify the Liberal Democrat
:42:49. > :42:53.position. Tim Farron told the BBC that he wanted to strip Southern of
:42:54. > :42:57.its franchise. That sounds like we nationalise a. Is that your policy?
:42:58. > :43:00.The policy which will come out in the manifesto is that we want to
:43:01. > :43:07.strip Southern of its franchise, but we also want to work towards a
:43:08. > :43:11.long-term franchising opportunity. There will be an interim period
:43:12. > :43:17.where it will be owned by the gunmen, the same with Govia
:43:18. > :43:20.Thameslink. We need to have some elected local authority
:43:21. > :43:27.representative is as part of that. Is it just Southern that you would
:43:28. > :43:29.strip of its franchise? Southern and Govia Thameslink. One of the most
:43:30. > :43:35.compensated franchises in the country. It is Southern's management
:43:36. > :43:40.who file. We have to put a word in for their staff, they do a brilliant
:43:41. > :43:44.staff, covering up for the failures of their management. It sounds a lot
:43:45. > :43:50.like renationalisation. In what way is it not? I you afraid to use the
:43:51. > :43:58.word because Labour use the word in delicate manifesto. It involves the
:43:59. > :44:01.local authority management. In what way we do involve the local
:44:02. > :44:07.authority? You have boards which involve local councillors. Just for
:44:08. > :44:12.scrutiny? For scrutiny, overall covenants, but we would have rail
:44:13. > :44:18.companies actually running the railways, we're not going back to
:44:19. > :44:26.the state running the railway. In some ways, that sounds more radical
:44:27. > :44:30.than your party. You would wait until the franchises expire before
:44:31. > :44:34.the nationalising. In some parts of the network, they would still be
:44:35. > :44:37.radically owned in 2029. It is about finding a pragmatic solution. What
:44:38. > :44:41.we have seen in the last 12 months with the southern dispute has been
:44:42. > :44:45.chaos for commuters. I agree with Chris that the blame for that is to
:44:46. > :44:51.be very carefully with the senior management. They have been tried
:44:52. > :44:57.bring those parties together. The policy we have in our manifesto is
:44:58. > :45:01.clear, the public are frustrated with expensive fares, a regular
:45:02. > :45:04.train services, they want to see a decent public service, not for
:45:05. > :45:16.profit, but for the public service for commuters across the region who
:45:17. > :45:21.... We have to be clear, the management are not here to defend
:45:22. > :45:35.themselves. I do agree that longer term, we need to take it in a
:45:36. > :45:40.southern deadlock is broken, is your southern deadlock is broken, is your
:45:41. > :45:45.Holocene to crush your things and hope the problem goes away? It was
:45:46. > :45:49.terrible in 2016, we had industrial action and the redevelopment of
:45:50. > :45:54.London Bridge, Southern's management maintain that was a key factor. What
:45:55. > :45:58.we now have is Southern's public performance measurement going up
:45:59. > :46:03.from six to 5% last year to 87%, which suggests that the fault was
:46:04. > :46:06.with the unions were going on strike and with nationalised Network Rail
:46:07. > :46:11.the overrunning of London Bridge. To turn back to those policies in terms
:46:12. > :46:15.of nationalisation and giving unions or power would send us back to where
:46:16. > :46:19.we were last year, which would be a disaster. We need to move forward.
:46:20. > :46:24.To be fair to Southern, if they have turned the corner, we need to help
:46:25. > :46:28.them get on with it. Looking at the wider issues on the railways, and
:46:29. > :46:35.you can come back on this. In 2011, Philip Hammond said, and cup double
:46:36. > :46:39.fact another one, the railways are already a vertically rich man's toy
:46:40. > :46:41.come the whole railway. If you are a party for the people who are just
:46:42. > :46:45.about managing, what will you do about managing, what will you do
:46:46. > :46:48.see how Labour's figures will stack see how Labour's figures will stack
:46:49. > :46:54.up. They are talking about getting rid of driver controlled trains, 76%
:46:55. > :47:02.of Southern's trains are driver controlled. It doesn't add up to me
:47:03. > :47:08.at all. What is important is that railways self fund themselves, which
:47:09. > :47:11.allows us to put money into upgrading the tracks and stations.
:47:12. > :47:14.You don't agree that we need to do something about rail fares? I agree
:47:15. > :47:18.that they are expensive, but we need to make sure that they pay for the
:47:19. > :47:25.service, which allows taxpayer money to go into improving in the
:47:26. > :47:29.structure. What gets me is this whole business about hiding behind
:47:30. > :47:30.the militant unions. How are customers of the railways going to
:47:31. > :47:36.be any better about the Government be any better about the Government
:47:37. > :47:41.that hides behind the union? They also want to know what you what to
:47:42. > :47:47.do about fares. I have a friend who is an ICU nurse, on her part-time
:47:48. > :47:52.nurses wage, she has to pay ?35 50 every time she travels from the
:47:53. > :47:57.bridge wells to London Bridge. What are your party is going to do about
:47:58. > :48:01.rail this question Mike in the coalition, we work on reducing bus
:48:02. > :48:07.fares. We would love to bring the rail fares down. What are you going
:48:08. > :48:14.to due to bring rail fares down? We will maintain the profit element.
:48:15. > :48:18.Your ICU nurse friend, part of that there will be going to pay
:48:19. > :48:21.shareholders. That should not be the case, it should be for the public,
:48:22. > :48:23.not the profit. Our railways may need improving,
:48:24. > :48:26.but are the roads faring any better? When the government announced
:48:27. > :48:29.a giant ?250 million lorry park it was meant to be a solution
:48:30. > :48:33.to Operation Stack, a temporary measure that
:48:34. > :48:35.turned parts of the M20 into a lorry park a total
:48:36. > :48:38.of 32 times in just that year. But work on the project appears
:48:39. > :48:43.to have stalled because of
:48:44. > :48:45.a pending judicial review. Our reporter, Heather Edwards,
:48:46. > :48:48.joins us from the proposed site of the lorry park in
:48:49. > :48:51.the village of Stanford. Well, other than the distant
:48:52. > :48:53.rumble from the motorway, here in the countryside
:48:54. > :48:56.around Stanford. We've had the dog
:48:57. > :48:58.walkers out already. The Government has bold
:48:59. > :49:01.plans for this land. It wants to build what could be
:49:02. > :49:04.the world's biggest lorry park, twice the size of Disneyland,
:49:05. > :49:09.with capacity for 3,600 lorries. I'm sure you can imagine, many local
:49:10. > :49:13.people are horrified at the plans. I'm joined here by the chair
:49:14. > :49:15.of Stanford parish council, Matthew Webb, and also
:49:16. > :49:17.Christopher Snelling, from the Freight Transport
:49:18. > :49:20.Association. Matthew, this is not
:49:21. > :49:22.going to be Disneyland. Horrified, is that a reasonable
:49:23. > :49:25.description of how you feel? Our residents provide and dismayed
:49:26. > :49:29.that this should be proposed. They are very concerned
:49:30. > :49:31.about the environmental health of their families,
:49:32. > :49:34.and also we just do not think it doesn't get the freight
:49:35. > :49:40.anywhere any more quickly. What you need to do is improve
:49:41. > :49:43.capacity and resilience And Eurotunnel, Port of Dover have
:49:44. > :49:51.helped do that in recent months. There's been better security around
:49:52. > :49:54.the Channel Tunnel on the French side, the Jungle has been cleared,
:49:55. > :49:57.and all of those things have helped contribute to the fact
:49:58. > :49:59.that we haven't seen Operation Stack I mean, your members at
:50:00. > :50:06.the Freight Transport Association, Would you want this
:50:07. > :50:09.on your doorstep? I think the first important
:50:10. > :50:12.thing to say is that this won't be a lorry park,
:50:13. > :50:14.it's a lorry area. It's supposed to be
:50:15. > :50:16.empty most of the time. It's an emergency reserve
:50:17. > :50:19.for the normally two or three days a year that we need it
:50:20. > :50:21.for Operation Stack. The purpose of it is to get
:50:22. > :50:24.the lorry divers safe, and somewhere where they have
:50:25. > :50:26.toilet facilities. Also, most importantly,
:50:27. > :50:28.to keep the motorway open. If the motorway ever shuts,
:50:29. > :50:30.that's a massive blight on the people of Kent and anyone
:50:31. > :50:33.trying to get through it. You talk about blight -
:50:34. > :50:36.as Matthew said, 3,600 diesel lorries in one location,
:50:37. > :50:37.pumping out fumes. You can understand, surely,
:50:38. > :50:40.the concerns of local people and the impact it's going to have
:50:41. > :50:42.on the environment. If they are sat here
:50:43. > :50:45.in a lorry area, they are not
:50:46. > :50:47.going to be pumping out fumes because they are going
:50:48. > :50:49.to be switched off. It is an essential resource for us
:50:50. > :50:52.to be able to keep the motorways functioning for everything
:50:53. > :50:54.else and everyone else We have to keep Kent working,
:50:55. > :50:57.even when Operation Stack occurs. That is an important
:50:58. > :51:01.point, Matthew, surely? 11,000 lorries a day,
:51:02. > :51:04.rolling on and off ferries at Dover. Those lorries have got
:51:05. > :51:12.to have somewhere to go. I would say that you need
:51:13. > :51:14.to bear in mind that during the summer of 2015,
:51:15. > :51:19.there were 9,000 lorries stuck You will still have 5,400
:51:20. > :51:27.on the motorway, not going anywhere. You need to fix the problems that
:51:28. > :51:31.cause Stack, not the symptoms. 3,600 lorries when we had 9,000
:51:32. > :51:38.lorries stuck during 2015, it's not big enough,
:51:39. > :51:42.and it's an awful lot of money. That was only for the very worst two
:51:43. > :51:46.or three days we ever had. Normally, Stack is on the order
:51:47. > :51:49.of 2,000 or 3,000 vehicles, Matthew was right,
:51:50. > :51:52.the best thing of all We don't want to be sat here,
:51:53. > :51:56.waiting, we want to be getting across the Channel
:51:57. > :51:58.and servicing our customers. But some of those
:51:59. > :52:00.problems are intractable. We're never going to fix
:52:01. > :52:02.the weather in the channel, it's still going to be a problem
:52:03. > :52:05.from time to time. We need to have emergency
:52:06. > :52:07.plans in place. And, of course, we've got
:52:08. > :52:09.Brexit on the horizon. The CEO of Dover says that that
:52:10. > :52:12.could mean we have Operation Stack Christopher, briefly,
:52:13. > :52:15.how worried are your members about what is going to happen
:52:16. > :52:17.in two years' time? It's one of the chief
:52:18. > :52:21.issues for us with Brexit, that if we have any potential
:52:22. > :52:23.additional customs checks that we have to go through at Dover,
:52:24. > :52:27.if the border is brought back, then that could add a lot
:52:28. > :52:29.to the time getting across. If you are talking about 10,000
:52:30. > :52:32.or 11,000 movements every day, it would not take much for that
:52:33. > :52:34.to go wrong, and suddenly you've got
:52:35. > :52:37.Operation Stack a lot more often, The judicial review
:52:38. > :52:42.is in the autumn. For now, thank you both
:52:43. > :52:45.very much indeed. Matthew Webb
:52:46. > :52:46.and Christopher Snelling, Thank you.
:52:47. > :52:59.Thank you. Huw Merriman, you were on the
:53:00. > :53:02.Transport Select Committee, which is critical on the lorry park. You have
:53:03. > :53:06.heard it before, the Government's decision was taken hastily in
:53:07. > :53:11.reaction to the events of 2015. They came up with the policy and came up
:53:12. > :53:17.with a justification afterwards. To what agreed you agree with those?
:53:18. > :53:20.Three months previously, we put our first report out before the covenant
:53:21. > :53:24.had taken action. We reported it was hard to find any other possible
:53:25. > :53:27.solution bar a lorry park at Stanford. Three months later, we
:53:28. > :53:32.then attacked the Government for making a hasty decision. I did not
:53:33. > :53:38.agree with the second report. I made a menace to the report to stop us
:53:39. > :53:48.being hypocritical. We heard evidence from all the local
:53:49. > :53:55.authorities, we only heard evidence that was against it. That summer in
:53:56. > :53:59.Kent was chaos. It was bad for health, for business. We cannot see
:54:00. > :54:05.that happening again. It will seem extraordinary for people that you
:54:06. > :54:12.don't need planning permission for this enormous lorry park. There has
:54:13. > :54:16.been a consultation period set for people to feedback. There will be
:54:17. > :54:21.the usual legal process. No planning permission? What we have got in
:54:22. > :54:24.place is a park that has had work already start on it. There is a
:54:25. > :54:28.judicial review around the corner. When Terminal five was built, it
:54:29. > :54:30.took eight years to get through the legal process would I don't want
:54:31. > :54:38.that to happen again, otherwise you will have another summer in Kent
:54:39. > :54:43.like pretty 15. Surely you can see the need for this lorry park? What
:54:44. > :54:51.is clear to me is that the status quo of Operation Stack happening for
:54:52. > :54:54.ever is not viable. We need that the happen. You plunged when you had the
:54:55. > :55:02.support that with Brexit coming, we will have Operation Stack everyday.
:55:03. > :55:05.Is that hyperbole? Who knows? We need to be prepared for these
:55:06. > :55:09.things. I love living in Kent are part of the problem is that we have
:55:10. > :55:11.the huge Port of Dover, which comes with challenges. The reality is we
:55:12. > :55:14.need to have solutions to those problems. Have all of the solutions
:55:15. > :55:19.being looked at here? I looked at being looked at here? I looked at
:55:20. > :55:27.the footage of the committee, hours of that footage. The question that
:55:28. > :55:31.they not properly looked at the they not properly looked at the
:55:32. > :55:33.alternatives? Where are the cost analyses of all of the alternatives?
:55:34. > :55:38.Part of that is looking at what will Part of that is looking at what will
:55:39. > :55:43.happen if this goes ahead. There needs to be funding to make sure
:55:44. > :55:48.this goes ahead. They need to be a costing structure. The risk is, if
:55:49. > :55:54.it is not done properly... We need a solution. We need to look at farm
:55:55. > :55:59.alternatives, more rail freight, get more freight off the roads and on
:56:00. > :56:03.the rail capacity. Do we need to do the rail capacity. Do we need to do
:56:04. > :56:08.that as well? Yes, we do, we need to improve communications. When we talk
:56:09. > :56:13.about Brexit, we talk about the custom union and the single market.
:56:14. > :56:16.This is the real application of that. If we leave the customs union,
:56:17. > :56:22.leave the single market, Operation Stack will seem like being stuck for
:56:23. > :56:27.a couple of minutes at a red traffic light. The boards are telling us
:56:28. > :56:29.that they are already at capacity for the administration of seeing
:56:30. > :56:33.vehicles through. If we are then going to have extra customs
:56:34. > :56:40.formalities, that will make it unworkable. The new President of
:56:41. > :56:43.France... He wants to bring the border over to this country. In this
:56:44. > :56:48.case don't we need the lorry park and other lorry parks and your idea
:56:49. > :56:58.about moving the freight onto the railways, and possibly the getting
:56:59. > :57:01.of details to the drivers. We need to make sure we keep all of the
:57:02. > :57:08.lorries out of the South East until they know it is going to be clear,
:57:09. > :57:12.then you need the last resort. All of these points will add that in the
:57:13. > :57:14.amity report. Looking at other ports, looking at additional lanes
:57:15. > :57:19.on the motorways will take years and on the motorways will take years and
:57:20. > :57:23.cost billions. In the meantime, Kent continues to suffer the inherent
:57:24. > :57:25.danger of that summer chaos. We can't allow that to happen. What
:57:26. > :57:30.about the inherent danger to people about the inherent danger to people
:57:31. > :57:34.living in Stanford, looking at the particulate from those diesel
:57:35. > :57:37.lorries. They are right to say, where is the investigation into the
:57:38. > :57:42.environment or health issues here? That has all been studied as part of
:57:43. > :57:44.the consultation. Let's look at the alternative, all those lorries
:57:45. > :57:49.engines running, not just on the engines running, not just on the
:57:50. > :57:54.motorways. The villages are blocked, there is a pollution there as the
:57:55. > :57:57.noise and inconvenience, as well as being unable to get to hospitals or
:57:58. > :58:02.to work. This is a better outcome than suffering the consequences that
:58:03. > :58:08.Kent suffered last summer. It is not just about the whole of Kent. It was
:58:09. > :58:11.North and West Kent affected as well, the whole county, it is a
:58:12. > :58:15.national issue. If we can't get the freight moving, it will impact
:58:16. > :58:23.business. Would you have this scrapped immediately if you were
:58:24. > :58:27.elected? We would put it on hold. We cannot solve solutions with predict
:58:28. > :58:32.and provide. We have to address them an first. A quick question, would
:58:33. > :58:39.this operate as a conventional lorry park all year round? How report
:58:40. > :58:42.suggested do so. The issue with Stack, and also illegal parking. We
:58:43. > :58:46.want to see it operated all the way around as a legal lorry park was a
:58:47. > :58:49.big deals with two issues rather than just one. Thank you.
:58:50. > :58:52.And now here's some of the other news you may have missed
:58:53. > :59:00.The chairman of the Kent branch of Ukip has confirmed
:59:01. > :59:02.he will be standing down from the role,
:59:03. > :59:05.and as the party's candidate in Sittingbourne and Sheppey.
:59:06. > :59:08.It follows critical comments made on this programme
:59:09. > :59:10.about the party leader, Paul Nuttall.
:59:11. > :59:12.We could have a different leadership team at the top.
:59:13. > :59:15.But Richard Palmer told the BBC that he needed a rest,
:59:16. > :59:18.and the local party had made a decision not to field a candidate
:59:19. > :59:23.Parents in Brighton and Hove have launched a campaign
:59:24. > :59:25.in the run-up to the general election,
:59:26. > :59:27.calling for greater funding for schools.
:59:28. > :59:30.Banners were displayed, claiming cuts to school budgets
:59:31. > :59:33.would have devastating impact on education.
:59:34. > :59:35.It's going to have a detrimental effect on my children
:59:36. > :59:39.and therefore the future of the country.
:59:40. > :59:42.The Government says it's spending more than ever on schools.
:59:43. > :59:45.showing a workman removing a star from the EU flag,
:59:46. > :59:50.The street artist's latest work, believed to be a comment on Brexit,
:59:51. > :59:54.Dover District Council said it would be monitoring
:59:55. > :00:23.A really quick thought on beta won. A blessing or a curse? Yes, Gita. A
:00:24. > :00:25.blessing, yes. Love it. Consensus! Thank you.
:00:26. > :00:27.This programme is part of a series of shows
:00:28. > :00:30.we will be hearing from all the major parties
:00:31. > :00:33.standing candidates in the South East on a range of issues
:00:34. > :00:39.during the general election campaign.
:00:40. > :00:42.That's all we've got time for from the South East this week.
:00:43. > :00:47.Natalie Graham will be here next week.
:00:48. > :00:57.Tories are saying. It is a very emotive subject and we have run out
:00:58. > :01:05.of time. On Thursday nominations closed
:01:06. > :01:09.in the 650 parliamentary seats across the country,
:01:10. > :01:12.so now we know exactly who's We've been analysing the parties'
:01:13. > :01:19.candidates to find out what they might tell us
:01:20. > :01:21.about the make-up of the House Well, we know Theresa May is
:01:22. > :01:26.committed to delivering Brexit and analysis of Conservative
:01:27. > :01:31.candidates has shown that in their top 100 target seats,
:01:32. > :01:33.37 candidates supported leave during last year's referendum
:01:34. > :01:41.campaign and 20 supported remain; 43
:01:42. > :01:43.have not made public In the last parliament,
:01:44. > :01:50.the vast majority of Labour MPs were hostile to Jeremy Corbyn so how
:01:51. > :01:52.supportive are Labour Well, of 50 of Labour's
:01:53. > :01:58.top 100 target seats 17 candidates have expressed
:01:59. > :02:01.support for Mr Corbyn. 20 candidates supported Owen Smith
:02:02. > :02:06.in last year's leadership contest or have expressed
:02:07. > :02:10.anti-Corbyn sentiment, and If they won those,
:02:11. > :02:16.the Labour benches would be marginally more sympathetic
:02:17. > :02:18.to Mr Corbyn than they are now. What do the figures tell us
:02:19. > :02:20.about where the other Well, the Lib Dems have decided not
:02:21. > :02:24.to stand against the Greens in Brighton Pavilion,
:02:25. > :02:26.and are fielding 629 candidates this year -
:02:27. > :02:29.that's two fewer than 2015. The number of Ukip candidates has
:02:30. > :02:33.fallen dramatically. They are standing in 247 fewer
:02:34. > :02:39.constituencies than 2015, throwing their support behind
:02:40. > :02:41.solidly pro-Brexit Tories in some areas such as Lewes
:02:42. > :02:45.and Norfolk North. The Greens are fielding
:02:46. > :02:49.103 fewer candidates than at the last election,
:02:50. > :03:00.standing down to help other progressive candidates
:03:01. > :03:13.in some places. The most liking statistic is the
:03:14. > :03:19.demise in Ukip candidates, is this their swansong? And I think so. It
:03:20. > :03:27.is remarkable how few Ukip candidates are standing. It is hard
:03:28. > :03:37.to see they will suddenly revive in the next couple of years. I think
:03:38. > :03:41.this is probably the end. Frank Luntz mentioned the fragmentation of
:03:42. > :03:44.the left was a feature of this election, but also there is the
:03:45. > :03:48.consolidation of the right, and if you take the things together that
:03:49. > :03:52.could explain why the polls are where they are. Absolutely, that's
:03:53. > :03:58.precisely what happened at the start of the 1980s, the right was
:03:59. > :04:04.incredibly united and that's when we started talking about majorities of
:04:05. > :04:10.over 100 or so. No matter what the size of Theresa May's majority, it
:04:11. > :04:16.will be the total collapse of Ukip, but not just because we are now
:04:17. > :04:20.leaving the EU and that was their only reason for being, but a whole
:04:21. > :04:28.lot of people voted for Ukip because they felt the Tories were no longer
:04:29. > :04:31.listening. Theresa May has given the impression that she is listening,
:04:32. > :04:40.and that is the biggest possible thing that could happen to the Tory
:04:41. > :04:45.vote. Fragmentation of the left, consolidation of the right? It's one
:04:46. > :04:50.of the lessons that is never learnt, it happened in the 1980s, it doesn't
:04:51. > :04:53.take much for the whole thing to fracture so now you have on the
:04:54. > :05:00.centre-left the SNP, the Labour Party, the Greens, the Liberal
:05:01. > :05:05.Democrats all competing for the same votes and when you have, fleetingly
:05:06. > :05:11.perhaps, large numbers coalescing on the right in one party, there is
:05:12. > :05:15.only going to be one outcome. It happens regularly. It doesn't mean
:05:16. > :05:20.the Tories haven't got their own fragility. Two years ago, David
:05:21. > :05:23.Cameron and George Osborne the dominant figures, neither are in
:05:24. > :05:29.Parliament now which is a symptom of the fragility this election is
:05:30. > :05:34.disguising. Mrs May's position in a way reminds me of Mrs Thatcher in
:05:35. > :05:39.the 1980s, I won't be outflanked on the right, Nicolas Sarkozy in
:05:40. > :05:42.France, I won't be outflanked on the right, so the National Front didn't
:05:43. > :05:47.get through either timed he ran to the second round on like this time,
:05:48. > :05:53.and now Mrs May on Brexit won't be outflanked Iver and as a result has
:05:54. > :05:57.seen off right flank. And also she is looking to the left as well with
:05:58. > :06:00.some of the state interventions. What was interesting about the
:06:01. > :06:04.analysis you showed a few minutes ago was the number of Tory
:06:05. > :06:08.candidates who have apparently not declared which way they voted in the
:06:09. > :06:13.referendum, and you would have thought if this election was all
:06:14. > :06:16.about Brexit, as some would claim, that would become an unsustainable
:06:17. > :06:21.position, and actually more it's about leadership. But the point that
:06:22. > :06:28.I'm now hearing from a number of Labour candidates that they are
:06:29. > :06:33.seeing Tory leaflets that don't even have the Tory candidate's name on
:06:34. > :06:38.them, it is just about Theresa May. I am glad they are keeping to the
:06:39. > :06:42.law because by law they have to put it on. It has been harder for some
:06:43. > :06:49.of the smaller parties too because of the speed of the election being
:06:50. > :06:55.called. We have the manifesto is coming out this week. I think Labour
:06:56. > :07:00.Forshaw on Tuesday, we are not yet sure when the Tories will bring
:07:01. > :07:04.bears out. I suggest one thing, it will at least for people like me
:07:05. > :07:11.bring an end to the question you will have to wait for the manifesto.
:07:12. > :07:21.And Rebecca Long baby will never have that excuse again, isn't it
:07:22. > :07:25.wonderful! She is not the only one. When you are trying to take the
:07:26. > :07:30.north and Midlands from Labour, I would go to one or the other. For
:07:31. > :07:35.me, I can barely hold back my excitement over the Tory manifesto.
:07:36. > :07:39.This will be, I think, the most important day for the British
:07:40. > :07:47.government for the next five years. That wasn't irony there? You
:07:48. > :07:51.actually meant that? I'm not even being cynical at all on Sunday
:07:52. > :08:00.Politics! This is a huge day and it's because I think we will see...
:08:01. > :08:04.I don't think Mrs May will play it safe and I don't think we will get
:08:05. > :08:08.the broadbrush stuff that she might be advised to do. I think she will
:08:09. > :08:14.lay out precisely what you want to do over the next five years and take
:08:15. > :08:17.some big risks. Then finally after a year of this guessing and
:08:18. > :08:21.theorising, we will finally work out what Mrs May is all about. She will
:08:22. > :08:25.say she doesn't want the next parliament to be all about Brexit,
:08:26. > :08:29.though she knows that's the next important thing she has to deliver
:08:30. > :08:31.in some way, so she gets a mandate for that if the polls are right but
:08:32. > :08:45.she does have very different ideas from
:08:46. > :08:47.Mr Cameron about how to run a country. She will I assume one to
:08:48. > :08:50.mandate for what these different ideas are. Otherwise there is no
:08:51. > :08:53.point in holding an early election. You will get a majority, but if you
:08:54. > :08:56.get a mandate to carry on implementing the Cameron and Osborne
:08:57. > :08:59.manifesto it would be utterly pointless. I agree, it is the
:09:00. > :09:03.pivotal event of the election and it will be interesting to see the
:09:04. > :09:08.degree to which she expands on the line which interests me about its
:09:09. > :09:14.time to look at the good that government can do. Because in a way
:09:15. > :09:18.this moves the debate on in UK politics from, from 97 the Blair
:09:19. > :09:23.Brown governments were insecure about arguing about the role of
:09:24. > :09:26.government. Cameron Osborne government similarly so, so here you
:09:27. > :09:31.have a Labour Party talking about the role of government and the
:09:32. > :09:34.state, and Tory leader apparently doing so was well. I think that will
:09:35. > :09:41.be really interesting to see whether it is fleshed out in any significant
:09:42. > :09:45.way. And it is not a natural Tory message. Harold Macmillan talked
:09:46. > :09:52.about the role of the state, Ted Heath Mark two was pretty big on the
:09:53. > :09:57.state, the industrial policy and so on, and even if it is not thought to
:09:58. > :10:02.be that Tory, does she get away with it because she deliver such a big
:10:03. > :10:08.victory if that's what she does deliver? Just inject a little note
:10:09. > :10:14.of scepticism, I wonder how much of this is authentically Theresa May. I
:10:15. > :10:19.was interested to and talk to someone who used to sit in cabinet
:10:20. > :10:23.meetings during which Theresa May never expressed an opinion on
:10:24. > :10:29.anything outside the Home Office briefs. Other ministers were roving
:10:30. > :10:36.all over their colleagues' briefs. So where are the ideas coming from?
:10:37. > :10:42.I think we can point to Nick Timothy. One of her closest advisers
:10:43. > :10:48.in Downing Street. It will be interesting to see how that evolves.
:10:49. > :10:59.On Thursday I think we will all be talking about something called
:11:00. > :11:04.Urdington Toryism. Urdington is the suburb of Birmingham where Nick
:11:05. > :11:10.Timothy comes from, who is very much Theresa May's policy brain and
:11:11. > :11:13.leading inspiration. Urdington Toryism is about connecting the
:11:14. > :11:18.party with traditional working class voters, and their belief to do that
:11:19. > :11:22.is not just taking away government out of their lives but showing them
:11:23. > :11:31.that government can actually help their lives. It can be a force for
:11:32. > :11:38.good to rebuild the trust. A lot of what Mrs May talks about is all...
:11:39. > :11:46.It is talk and then a lot of it suddenly goes by the wayside. What
:11:47. > :11:51.happened to worker directors on the boards. It is designed to appeal to
:11:52. > :11:56.that constituency and then nothing happens. She had an excuse before in
:11:57. > :12:00.the sense that it wasn't in the 2015 manifesto and she had a small
:12:01. > :12:04.majority so therefore she arguably had to water down some of the stuff
:12:05. > :12:08.for example in her Tory conference speech, which had a lot of this
:12:09. > :12:13.active government material in it. If she puts it in the manifesto, it is
:12:14. > :12:17.a sign she plans to do it and will have no excuse if she then gets
:12:18. > :12:22.nervous afterwards because it will be in there. If it wasn't for
:12:23. > :12:26.Brexit, this great overwhelming issue, I think this election will be
:12:27. > :12:31.seen as quite a significant development in terms of an argument
:12:32. > :12:36.around the role of government, much-needed. But Brexit
:12:37. > :12:40.unfortunately overshadows it all. As much as we like our arguments over
:12:41. > :12:47.the role of government we will hear strong and stable, stable and strong
:12:48. > :12:52.ad nauseam, aren't we? Absolutely, and we heard the same old lines from
:12:53. > :12:59.the Labour Party as well so they are all at it. It will be a fascinating
:13:00. > :13:01.week, stop talking it down! Thanks to our panel.
:13:02. > :13:04.The Daily Politics will be back on BBC Two at noon
:13:05. > :13:08.I'll be back here at the same time on BBC One next Sunday.
:13:09. > :13:43.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:13:44. > :13:46.When it came to my TV habits, I'd watch anything...
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