:00:36. > :00:40.It's Sunday Morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:42.Labour attacks Conservative plans for social care and to means-test
:00:43. > :00:45.So can Jeremy Corbyn eat into the Tory lead
:00:46. > :00:51.Theresa May says her party's manifesto is all about fairness.
:00:52. > :00:55.We'll be speaking to a Conservative cabinet minister about the plans.
:00:56. > :00:58.The polls have always shown healthy leads for the Conservatives.
:00:59. > :01:02.But, now we've seen the manifestos, is Labour narrowing the gap?
:01:03. > :01:05.And in the south-east: It's high on voters' list of priorities -
:01:06. > :01:20.but with the NHS out of shape here, what are the parties prescribing?
:01:21. > :01:23.And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political
:01:24. > :01:25.panel in the business: Sam Coates, Isabel Oakeshott
:01:26. > :01:26.and Steve Richards - they'll be tweeting throughout
:01:27. > :01:29.the programme, and you can get involved by using
:01:30. > :01:37.Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn says pensioners will be up to ?330 a year
:01:38. > :01:49.worse off under plans outlined in the Conservative manifesto.
:01:50. > :01:55.The Work Pensions Secretary Damian Green has said his party will not
:01:56. > :01:59.rethink their plans to fund social care in England. Under the plans in
:02:00. > :02:06.the Conservative manifesto, nobody with assets of less than ?100,000,
:02:07. > :02:10.would have to pay for care. Labour has attacked the proposal, and John
:02:11. > :02:14.McDonnell, Labour's Shadow Chancellor, said this morning that
:02:15. > :02:17.there needs to be more cross-party consensus.
:02:18. > :02:19.That's why we supported Dilnot, but we also supported
:02:20. > :02:22.Because we've got to have something sustainable over generations,
:02:23. > :02:25.so that's why we've said to the Conservative Party,
:02:26. > :02:28.Let's go back to that cross-party approach that actually
:02:29. > :02:31.I just feel we've all been let down by what's come
:02:32. > :02:42.Sam, is Labour beginning to get their argument across? What we had
:02:43. > :02:46.last week was bluntly what felt like not very Lynton Crosby approved
:02:47. > :02:50.Conservative manifesto. What I mean by that is that it looks like there
:02:51. > :02:55.are things that will cause political difficulties for the party over this
:02:56. > :02:59.campaign. I've been talking to MPs and ministers who acknowledge that
:03:00. > :03:05.the social care plan is coming up on the doorstep. It has cut through
:03:06. > :03:09.very quickly, and it is worrying and deterring some voters. Not just
:03:10. > :03:20.pensioners, that people who are looking to inherit in the future.
:03:21. > :03:23.They are all asking how much they could lose that they wouldn't have
:03:24. > :03:25.lost before. A difficult question for the party to answer, given that
:03:26. > :03:31.they don't want to give too much away now. Was this a mistake, or a
:03:32. > :03:38.sign of the Conservatives' confidence? It has the hallmarks of
:03:39. > :03:42.something that has been cobbled together in a very unnaturally short
:03:43. > :03:46.time frame for putting a manifesto together. We have had mixed messages
:03:47. > :03:50.from the Tory MPs who have been out on the airwaves this morning as to
:03:51. > :03:55.whether they will consult on it whether it is just a starting point.
:03:56. > :04:02.That said, there is still three weeks to go, and most of the Tory
:04:03. > :04:05.party this morning feel this is a little light turbulence rather than
:04:06. > :04:09.anything that leaves the destination of victory in doubt. It it flips the
:04:10. > :04:13.normal politics. The Tories are going to make people who have a
:04:14. > :04:20.reasonable amount of assets pay for their social care. What is wrong
:04:21. > :04:23.with that? First, total credit for them for not pretending that all
:04:24. > :04:27.this can be done by magic, which is what normally happens in an
:04:28. > :04:33.election. The party will say, we will review this for the 95th time
:04:34. > :04:37.in the following Parliament, so they have no mandate to do anything and
:04:38. > :04:41.so do not do anything. It is courageous to do it. It is
:04:42. > :04:47.electorally risky, for the reasons that you suggest, that they pass the
:04:48. > :04:53.target their own natural supporter. And there is a sense that this is
:04:54. > :04:58.rushed through, in the frenzy to get it done in time. I think the ending
:04:59. > :05:04.of the pooling of risk and putting the entire burden on in inverted
:05:05. > :05:12.commas the victim, because you cannot insure Fritz, is against the
:05:13. > :05:15.spirit of a lot of the rest of the manifesto, and will give them huge
:05:16. > :05:24.problems if they try to implement it in the next Parliament. Let's have a
:05:25. > :05:29.look at the polls. Nearly five weeks ago, on Tuesday the 18th of April,
:05:30. > :05:34.Theresa May called the election. At that point, this was the median
:05:35. > :05:40.average of the recent polls. The Conservatives had an 18 point lead
:05:41. > :05:48.over Labour on 25%. Ukip and the Liberal Democrats were both on 18%.
:05:49. > :05:53.A draft of Labour's manifesto was leaked to the press. In the
:05:54. > :05:56.intervening weeks, support for the Conservatives and Labour had
:05:57. > :06:02.increased, that it had decreased for the Lib Dems and Ukip. Last Tuesday
:06:03. > :06:08.came the launch of the official Labour manifesto. By that time,
:06:09. > :06:13.Labour support had gone up by another 2%. The Lib Dems and Ukip
:06:14. > :06:18.had slipped back slightly. Later in the week came the manifestos from
:06:19. > :06:22.the Lib Dems and the Conservatives. This morning, for more polls. This
:06:23. > :06:30.is how the parties currently stand on average. Labour are now on 34%,
:06:31. > :06:34.up 4% since the launch of their manifesto. The Conservatives are
:06:35. > :06:41.down two points since last Tuesday. Ukip and the Lib Dems are both
:06:42. > :06:46.unchanged on 8% and 5%. You can find this poll tracker on the BBC
:06:47. > :06:51.website, see how it was calculated, and see the results of national
:06:52. > :06:55.polls over the last two years. So Isabel, is this the Tories' wobbly
:06:56. > :06:59.weekend or the start of the narrowing? This is still an
:07:00. > :07:06.extremely healthy lead for the Tories. At the start of this
:07:07. > :07:12.campaign, most commentators expected to things to happen. First, the Lib
:07:13. > :07:17.Dems would have a significant surge. That hasn't happened. Second, Labour
:07:18. > :07:22.would crash and plummet. Instead they are in the health of the low
:07:23. > :07:28.30s. I wonder if that tells you something about the tribal nature of
:07:29. > :07:33.the Labour vote, and the continuing problems with the Tory brand. I
:07:34. > :07:38.would say that a lot of Tory MPs wouldn't be too unhappy if Labour's
:07:39. > :07:44.result isn't quite as bad as has been anticipated. They don't want
:07:45. > :07:51.Corbyn to go anywhere. If the latest polls were to be the result on June
:07:52. > :07:56.the 8th, Mr Corbyn may not be in a rush to go anywhere. I still think
:07:57. > :08:01.it depends on the number of seats. If there is a landslide win, I
:08:02. > :08:07.think, one way or another, he will not stay. If it is much narrower, he
:08:08. > :08:12.has grounds for arguing he has done better than anticipated. The polls
:08:13. > :08:17.are very interesting. People compare this with 83. In 83, the Tory lead
:08:18. > :08:30.widened consistently throughout the campaign. There was the SDP -
:08:31. > :08:33.Liberal Alliance doing well in the polls. Here, the Lib Dems don't seem
:08:34. > :08:35.to be doing that. So the parallels with 83 don't really stack up. But
:08:36. > :08:38.let's see what happens. Still early days for the a lot of people are
:08:39. > :08:43.saying this is the result of the social care policy. We don't really
:08:44. > :08:47.know that. How do you beat them? In the last week or so, there's been
:08:48. > :08:52.the decision by some to hold their nose and vote Labour, who haven't
:08:53. > :08:56.done so before. Probably the biggest thing in this election is how the
:08:57. > :09:03.Right has reunited behind Theresa May. That figure for Ukip is
:09:04. > :09:09.incredibly small. She has brought those Ukip voters behind her, and
:09:10. > :09:13.that could be the decisive factor in many seats, rather than the Labour
:09:14. > :09:18.share of the boat picking up a bit or down a bit, depending on how
:09:19. > :09:21.turbulent the Tory manifesto makes it. Thank you for that.
:09:22. > :09:24.We've finally got our hands on the manifestos of the two main
:09:25. > :09:26.parties and, for once, voters can hardly complain that
:09:27. > :09:30.So, just how big is the choice on offer to the public?
:09:31. > :09:32.Since the Liberal Democrats and SNP have ruled out
:09:33. > :09:34.coalitions after June 8th, Adam Fleming compares the Labour
:09:35. > :09:37.Welcome to the BBC's election centre.
:09:38. > :09:41.Four minutes from now, when Big Ben strikes 10.00,
:09:42. > :09:45.we can legally reveal the contents of this, our exit poll.
:09:46. > :09:47.18 days to go, and the BBC's election night studio
:09:48. > :09:57.This is where David Dimbleby will sit, although there is no chair yet.
:09:58. > :10:00.The parties' policies are now the finished product.
:10:01. > :10:03.In Bradford, Jeremy Corbyn vowed a bigger state,
:10:04. > :10:06.the end of austerity, no more tuition fees.
:10:07. > :10:14.The Tory campaign, by contrast, is built on one word - fear.
:10:15. > :10:22.Down the road in Halifax, Theresa May kept a promise to get
:10:23. > :10:25.immigration down to the tens of thousands, and talked
:10:26. > :10:28.of leadership and tough choices in uncertain times.
:10:29. > :10:35.Strengthen my hand as I fight for Britain, and stand with me
:10:36. > :10:41.And, with confidence in ourselves and a unity
:10:42. > :10:48.of purpose in our country, let us go forward together.
:10:49. > :10:51.Let's look at the Labour and Conservative
:10:52. > :10:57.On tax, Labour would introduce a 50p rate for top earners.
:10:58. > :11:21.The Conservatives ditched their triple lock, giving them
:11:22. > :11:23.freedom to put up income tax and national insurance,
:11:24. > :11:26.although they want to keep the overall tax burden the same.
:11:27. > :11:28.Labour offered a major overhaul of the country's wiring,
:11:29. > :11:30.with a pledge to renationalise infrastructure, like power,
:11:31. > :11:33.The Conservatives said that would cost a fortune,
:11:34. > :11:35.but provided few details for the cost of their policies.
:11:36. > :11:37.Labour have simply become a shambles, and, as yesterday's
:11:38. > :11:39.manifesto showed, their numbers simply do not add up.
:11:40. > :11:42.What have they got planned for health and social care?
:11:43. > :11:46.The Conservatives offered more cash for the NHS,
:11:47. > :11:49.reaching an extra ?8 billion a year by the end of the parliament.
:11:50. > :11:53.Labour promised an extra ?30 billion over the course of the same period,
:11:54. > :11:59.plus free hospital parking and more pay for staff.
:12:00. > :12:06.The Conservatives would increase the value of assets you could
:12:07. > :12:09.protect from the cost of social care to ?100,000, but your home would be
:12:10. > :12:11.added to the assessment of your wealth,
:12:12. > :12:15.There was a focus on one group of voters in particular
:12:16. > :12:21.Labour would keep the triple lock, which guarantees that pensions go up
:12:22. > :12:26.The Tories would keep the increase in line
:12:27. > :12:30.with inflation or earnings, a double lock.
:12:31. > :12:32.The Conservatives would end of winter fuel payments
:12:33. > :12:36.for the richest, although we don't know exactly who that would be,
:12:37. > :12:44.This is a savage attack on vulnerable pensioners,
:12:45. > :12:48.particularly those who are just about managing.
:12:49. > :12:52.It is disgraceful, and we are calling upon the Conservative Party
:12:53. > :12:59.When it comes to leaving the European Union, Labour say
:13:00. > :13:02.they'd sweep away the government's negotiating strategy,
:13:03. > :13:05.secure a better deal and straightaway guaranteed the rights
:13:06. > :13:11.The Tories say a big majority would remove political uncertainty
:13:12. > :13:23.Jeremy Vine's due here in two and a half weeks.
:13:24. > :13:29.I'm joined now by David Gauke, who is Chief Secretary to the Treasury.
:13:30. > :13:35.Welcome back to the programme. The Tories once promised a cap on social
:13:36. > :13:43.care costs. Why have you abandoned that? We've looked at it, and there
:13:44. > :13:48.are couple of proposals with the Dilnot proposal. Much of the benefit
:13:49. > :13:52.would go to those inheriting larger estates. The second point was it was
:13:53. > :13:58.hoped that a cap would stimulate the larger insurance products that would
:13:59. > :14:04.fill the gap, but there is no sign that those products are emerging.
:14:05. > :14:08.Without a cap, you will not get one. We have come forward with a new
:14:09. > :14:12.proposal which we think is fairer, provide more money for social care,
:14:13. > :14:17.which is very important and is one of the big issues we face as a
:14:18. > :14:22.country. It is right that we face those big issues. Social care is
:14:23. > :14:30.one, getting a good Brexit deal is another. This demonstrates that
:14:31. > :14:32.Theresa May has an ambition to lead a government that addresses those
:14:33. > :14:38.big long-term issues. Looking at social care. If you have assets,
:14:39. > :14:43.including your home, of over ?100,000, you have to pay for all
:14:44. > :14:47.your social care costs. Is that fair? It is right that for the
:14:48. > :14:53.services that are provided to you, that that is paid out of your
:14:54. > :14:57.assets, subject to two really important qualifications. First, you
:14:58. > :15:04.shouldn't have your entire estate wiped out. At the moment, if you are
:15:05. > :15:09.in residential care, it can be wiped out ?223,000. If you are in
:15:10. > :15:16.domiciliary care, it can be out to ?23,000, plus you're domiciliary.
:15:17. > :15:20.Nobody should be forced to sell their house in their lifetime if
:15:21. > :15:22.they or their spouse needs long-term care. Again, we have protected that
:15:23. > :15:32.in the proposals we set out. But the state will basically take a
:15:33. > :15:37.chunk of your house when you die and they sell. In an essence it is a
:15:38. > :15:41.stealth inheritance tax on everything above ?100,000. But we
:15:42. > :15:45.have those two important protections. I am including that. It
:15:46. > :15:49.is a stealth inheritance tax. We have to face up to the fact that
:15:50. > :15:54.there are significant costs that we face as a country in terms of health
:15:55. > :15:58.and social careful. Traditionally, politicians don't address those
:15:59. > :16:04.issues, particularly during election campaigns. I think it is too Theresa
:16:05. > :16:07.May's credit that we are being straightforward with the British
:16:08. > :16:10.people and saying that we face this long-term challenge. Our manifesto
:16:11. > :16:14.was about the big challenges that we face, one of which was
:16:15. > :16:18.intergenerational fairness and one of which was delivering a strong
:16:19. > :16:25.economy and making sure that we can do that. But in the end, someone is
:16:26. > :16:28.going to have to pay for this. It is going to have to be a balance
:16:29. > :16:31.between the general taxpayer and those receiving the services. We
:16:32. > :16:35.think we have struck the right balance with this proposal. But it
:16:36. > :16:39.is entirely on the individual. People watching this programme, if
:16:40. > :16:46.they have a fair amount of assets, not massive, including the home,
:16:47. > :16:50.they will need to pay for everything themselves until their assets are
:16:51. > :16:55.reduced to ?100,000. It is not a balance, you're putting everything
:16:56. > :17:01.on the original two individual. At the moment, for those in residential
:17:02. > :17:06.care, they have to pay everything until 20 3000. -- everything on the
:17:07. > :17:09.individual. But now they will face more. Those in individual care are
:17:10. > :17:13.seeing their protection going up by four times as much, so that is
:17:14. > :17:17.eliminating unfairness. Why should those in residential care be in a
:17:18. > :17:23.worse position than those receiving domiciliary care? But as I say, that
:17:24. > :17:26.money has to come from somewhere and we are sitting at a proper plan for
:17:27. > :17:30.it. While also made the point that we are more likely to be able to
:17:31. > :17:34.have a properly functioning social care market if we have a strong
:17:35. > :17:37.economy, and to have a strong economy we need to deliver a good
:17:38. > :17:42.deal on Brexit and I think Theresa May is capable of doing that. You
:17:43. > :17:46.have said that before. But if you have a heart attack in old age, the
:17:47. > :17:50.NHS will take care of you. If you have dementia, you now have to pay
:17:51. > :17:54.for the care of yourself. Is that they are? It is already the case
:17:55. > :17:59.that if you have long-term care costs come up as I say, if you are
:18:00. > :18:04.in residential care you pay for all of it until the last ?23,000, but if
:18:05. > :18:08.you are in domiciliary care, excluding your housing assets, but
:18:09. > :18:14.all of your other assets get used up until you are down to ?23,000 a
:18:15. > :18:21.year. And I think it is right at this point that a party that aspires
:18:22. > :18:24.to run this country for the long-term, to address the long-term
:18:25. > :18:29.challenges we have is a country, for us to be clear that we need to
:18:30. > :18:35.deliver this. Because if it is not paid for it this way, if it goes and
:18:36. > :18:39.falls on the general taxpayer, the people who feel hard pressed by the
:18:40. > :18:43.amount of income tax and VAT they pay, frankly we have to say to them,
:18:44. > :18:48.those taxes will go up if we do not address it. But they might go up
:18:49. > :18:54.anyway. The average house price in your part of the country is just shy
:18:55. > :18:58.of ?430,000, so if you told your own constituents that they might have to
:18:59. > :19:03.spend ?300,000 of their assets on social care before the state steps
:19:04. > :19:08.in to help...? As I said earlier, nobody will be forced to pay during
:19:09. > :19:14.their lifetime. Nobody will be forced to sell their houses. We are
:19:15. > :19:18.providing that protection because of the third premium. Which makes it a
:19:19. > :19:24.kind of death tax, doesn't it? Which is what you use to rail against.
:19:25. > :19:28.What it is people paying for the services they have paid out of their
:19:29. > :19:32.assets. But with that very important protection that nobody is going to
:19:33. > :19:37.be wiped out in the way that has happened up until now, down to the
:19:38. > :19:41.last three years. But when Labour propose this, George Osborne called
:19:42. > :19:45.it a death tax and you are now proposing a stealth death tax
:19:46. > :19:51.inheritance tax. Labour's proposals were very different. It is the same
:19:52. > :19:58.effect. Labour's were hitting everyone with an inheritance tax. We
:19:59. > :20:01.are saying that there are -- that there is a state contribution but
:20:02. > :20:07.the public receiving the services will have to pay for it out of
:20:08. > :20:11.assets, which have grown substantially. And which they might
:20:12. > :20:15.now lose to social care. But I would say that people in Hertfordshire pay
:20:16. > :20:20.a lot in income tracks, national insurance and VAT, and this is my
:20:21. > :20:24.bet is going to have to come from somewhere. Well, they are now going
:20:25. > :20:29.to pay a lot of tax and pay for social care. Turning to immigration,
:20:30. > :20:34.you promised to get net migration down to 100,020 ten. You failed. You
:20:35. > :20:38.promised again in 2015 and you are feeling again. Why should voters
:20:39. > :20:42.trust you a third time? It is very clear that only the Conservative
:20:43. > :20:48.Party has an ambition to control immigration and to bring it down. An
:20:49. > :20:51.ambition you have failed to deliver. There are, of course, factors that
:20:52. > :20:55.come into play. For example a couple of years ago we were going through a
:20:56. > :20:59.period when the UK was creating huge numbers of jobs but none of our
:21:00. > :21:02.European neighbours were doing anything like it. Not surprisingly,
:21:03. > :21:09.that feeds through into the immigration numbers that we see. But
:21:10. > :21:14.it is right that we have that ambition because I do not believe it
:21:15. > :21:18.is sustainable to have hundreds of thousands net migration, you're
:21:19. > :21:22.after year after year, and only Theresa May of the Conservative
:21:23. > :21:26.Party is willing to address that. It has gone from being a target to an
:21:27. > :21:30.ambition, and I am pretty sure in a couple of years it will become an
:21:31. > :21:36.untimed aspiration. Is net migration now higher or lower than when you
:21:37. > :21:41.came to power in 2010? I think it is higher at the moment. Let's look at
:21:42. > :21:46.the figures. And there they are. You are right, it is higher, so after
:21:47. > :21:53.six years in power, promising to get it down to 100,000, it is higher. So
:21:54. > :21:57.if that is an ambition and you have not succeeded. We have to accept
:21:58. > :22:02.that there are a number of factors. It continues to be the case that the
:22:03. > :22:06.UK economy is growing and creating a lot of jobs, which is undoubtedly
:22:07. > :22:09.drawing people. But you made the promise on the basis that would not
:22:10. > :22:12.happen? We are certainly outperforming other countries in a
:22:13. > :22:17.way that we could not have predicted in 2010. That is one of the factors.
:22:18. > :22:20.But if you look at a lot of the steps that we have taken over the
:22:21. > :22:26.course of the last seven years, dealing with bogus students, for
:22:27. > :22:30.example, tightening up a lot of the rules. You can say all that but it
:22:31. > :22:33.has made no difference to the headline figure. Clearly it would
:22:34. > :22:38.have gone up by much more and we not taken the steps. But as I say, we
:22:39. > :22:44.cannot for ever, it seems to me, have net migration numbers in the
:22:45. > :22:48.hundreds of thousands. If we get that good Brexit deal, one of the
:22:49. > :22:53.things we can do is tighten up in terms of access here. You say that
:22:54. > :22:57.but you have always had control of non-EU migration. You cannot blame
:22:58. > :23:00.the EU for that. You control immigration from outside the EU.
:23:01. > :23:07.Have you ever managed to get even that below 100,000? Well, no doubt
:23:08. > :23:12.you will present the numbers now. You haven't. You have got down a bit
:23:13. > :23:17.from 2010, I will give you that, but even non-EU migration is still a lot
:23:18. > :23:22.more than 100000 and that is the thing you control. It is 164,000 on
:23:23. > :23:25.the latest figures. There is no point in saying to the voters that
:23:26. > :23:28.when we get control of the EU migration you will get it down when
:23:29. > :23:34.the bit you have control over, you have failed to get that down into
:23:35. > :23:38.the tens of thousands. The general trend has gone up. Non-EU migration
:23:39. > :23:44.we have brought down over the last few years. Not by much, not by
:23:45. > :23:49.anywhere near your 100,000 target. But we clearly have more tools
:23:50. > :23:54.available to us, following Brexit. At this rate it will be around 2030
:23:55. > :23:57.before you get non-EU migration down to 100,000. We clearly have more
:23:58. > :24:01.tools available to us and I return to the point I made. In the last six
:24:02. > :24:05.or seven years, particularly the last four or five, we have seen the
:24:06. > :24:09.UK jobs market growing substantially. It is extraordinary
:24:10. > :24:12.how many more jobs we have. So you'll only promised the migration
:24:13. > :24:17.target because you did not think you were going to run the economy well?
:24:18. > :24:20.That is what you are telling me. I don't think anyone expected us to
:24:21. > :24:24.create quite a number of jobs that we have done over the last six or
:24:25. > :24:28.seven years. At the time when other European countries have not been.
:24:29. > :24:33.George Osborne says your target is economically illiterate. I disagree
:24:34. > :24:40.with George on that. He is my old boss but I disagree with him on that
:24:41. > :24:43.point. And the reason I say that is looking at the economics and the
:24:44. > :24:49.wider social impact, I don't think it is sustainable for us to have
:24:50. > :24:52.hundreds of thousands, year after year after year. Let me ask you one
:24:53. > :24:56.other thing because you are the chief secretary. Your promising that
:24:57. > :25:01.spending on health will be ?8 billion higher in five use time than
:25:02. > :25:04.it is now. How do you pay for that? From a strong economy, two years ago
:25:05. > :25:10.we had a similar conversation because at that point we said that
:25:11. > :25:14.we would increase spending by ?8 billion. And we are more than on
:25:15. > :25:18.track to deliver it, because it is a priority area for us. Where will the
:25:19. > :25:23.money come from? It will be a priority area for us. We will find
:25:24. > :25:28.the money. So you have not been able to show us a revenue line where this
:25:29. > :25:32.?8 billion will come from. We have a record of making promises to spend
:25:33. > :25:37.more on the NHS and delivering. One thing I would say is that the only
:25:38. > :25:42.way you can spend more money on the NHS is if you have a strong economy,
:25:43. > :25:46.and the biggest risk... But that is true of anything. I am trying to
:25:47. > :25:50.find out where the ?8 billion come from, where will it come from? Know
:25:51. > :25:53.you were saying that perhaps you might increase taxes, ticking off
:25:54. > :26:00.the lock, so people are right to be suspicious. But you will not tell us
:26:01. > :26:04.where the ?8 billion will come from. Andrew, a strong economy is key to
:26:05. > :26:08.delivering more NHS money. That does not tell us where the money is
:26:09. > :26:12.coming from. The biggest risk to a strong economy would be a bad
:26:13. > :26:17.Brexit, which Jeremy Corbyn would deliver. And we have a record of
:26:18. > :26:20.putting more money into the NHS. I think that past performance we can
:26:21. > :26:22.take forward. Thank you for joining us.
:26:23. > :26:24.So, the Conservatives have been taking a bit of flak
:26:25. > :26:28.But Conservative big guns have been out and about this morning taking
:26:29. > :26:32.Here's Boris Johnson on ITV's Peston programme earlier today:
:26:33. > :26:36.What we're trying to do is to address what I think
:26:37. > :26:39.everybody, all serious demographers acknowledge will be the massive
:26:40. > :26:43.problem of the cost of social care long-term.
:26:44. > :26:47.This is a responsible, grown-up, conservative approach,
:26:48. > :26:50.trying to deal with a long-term problem in a way that is equitable,
:26:51. > :26:52.allows people to pass on a very substantial sum,
:26:53. > :26:54.still, to their kids, and takes away the fear
:26:55. > :27:01.Joining me now from Liverpool is Labour's Shadow Chief Secretary
:27:02. > :27:12.Petered out, welcome to the programme. Let's start with social
:27:13. > :27:16.care. The Tories are saying that if you have ?100,000 or more in assets,
:27:17. > :27:22.you should pay for your own social care. What is wrong with that? Well,
:27:23. > :27:26.I think the issue at the end of the day is the question of fairness. Is
:27:27. > :27:30.it fair? And what we're trying to do is to get to a situation where we
:27:31. > :27:36.have, for example, the Dilnot report, which identified that you
:27:37. > :27:39.actually have cap on your spending on social care. We are trying to get
:27:40. > :27:45.to a position where it is a reasonable and fair approach to
:27:46. > :27:50.expenditure. But you will know that a lot of people, particularly in the
:27:51. > :27:54.south of country, London and the south-east, and the adjacent areas
:27:55. > :27:57.around it, they have benefited from huge house price inflation. They
:27:58. > :28:02.have seen their homes go up in value, if and when they sell, they
:28:03. > :28:08.are not taxed on that increase. Why should these people not pay for
:28:09. > :28:12.their own social care if they have the assets to do so? They will be
:28:13. > :28:17.paying for some of their social care but you cannot take social care and
:28:18. > :28:20.health care separately. It has to be an integrated approach. So for
:28:21. > :28:24.example if you do have dementia, you're more likely to be in an
:28:25. > :28:28.elderly person's home for longer and you most probably have been in care
:28:29. > :28:32.for a longer period of time. On the other hand, you might have, if you
:28:33. > :28:35.have had a stroke, there may be continuing care needs paid for by
:28:36. > :28:39.the NHS. So at the end of the date it is trying to get a reasonable
:28:40. > :28:48.balance and just to pluck a figure of ?100,000 out of thin air is not
:28:49. > :28:53.sensible. You will have heard me say about David Gold that the house
:28:54. > :28:57.prices in his area, about 450,000 or so, not quite that, and that people
:28:58. > :29:02.may have to spend quite a lot of that on social care to get down to
:29:03. > :29:07.?100,000. But in your area, the average house price is only
:29:08. > :29:12.?149,000, so your people would not have to pay anything like as much
:29:13. > :29:18.before they hit the ?100,000 minimum. I hesitate to say that but
:29:19. > :29:21.is that not almost a socialist approach to social care that if you
:29:22. > :29:26.are in the affluent Home Counties with a big asset, you pay more, and
:29:27. > :29:29.if you are in an area that is not so affluent and your house is not worth
:29:30. > :29:34.very much, you pay a lot less. What is wrong with that principle? I
:29:35. > :29:38.think the problem I am trying to get to is this issue about equity across
:29:39. > :29:44.the piece. At the end of the day, what we want is a system whereby it
:29:45. > :29:48.is capped at a particular level, and the Dilnot report, after much
:29:49. > :29:52.examination, said we should have a cap on care costs at ?72,000. The
:29:53. > :29:56.Conservatives decided to ditch that and come up with another policy
:29:57. > :30:00.which by all accounts seems to be even more Draconian. At the end of
:30:01. > :30:10.the day it is trying to get social care and an NHS care in a much more
:30:11. > :30:12.fluid way. We had offered the Conservatives to have a bipartisan
:30:13. > :30:17.approach to this. David just said that this is a long term. You do not
:30:18. > :30:23.pick a figure out of thin air and use that as a long-term strategy.
:30:24. > :30:28.The Conservatives are now saying they will increase health spending
:30:29. > :30:33.over the next five years in real terms. You will increase health
:30:34. > :30:39.spending. In what way is your approach to health spending better
:30:40. > :30:45.than the Tories' now? We are contributing an extra 7.2 billion to
:30:46. > :30:50.the NHS and social care over the next few years. But you just don't
:30:51. > :30:55.put money into the NHS or social care. It has to be an integrated
:30:56. > :30:59.approach to social and health care. What we've got is just more of the
:31:00. > :31:04.same. What we don't want to do is just say, we ring-fenced an out for
:31:05. > :31:13.here or there. What you have to do is try to get that... Let me ask you
:31:14. > :31:17.again. In terms of the amount of resource that is going to be devoted
:31:18. > :31:23.in the next five years, and resource does matter for the NHS, in what way
:31:24. > :31:27.are your plans different now from the Conservative plans? The key is
:31:28. > :31:33.how you use that resource. By just putting money in, you've got to say,
:31:34. > :31:39.if we are going to put that money on, how do we use it? As somebody
:31:40. > :31:43.who has worked in social care for 40 years, you have to have a different
:31:44. > :31:49.approach to how you use that money. The money we are putting in, 7.7,
:31:50. > :31:53.may be similar in cash terms to what the Tories claim they are putting
:31:54. > :32:07.in, but it's not how much you put in per se, it is how you use it. You
:32:08. > :32:10.are going to get rid of car parking charges in hospital, and you are
:32:11. > :32:12.going to increase pay by taking the cap on pay off. So it doesn't
:32:13. > :32:15.necessarily follow that the money, under your way of doing it, will
:32:16. > :32:19.follow the front line. What you need in the NHS is a system that is
:32:20. > :32:26.capable of dealing with the patience you have. What we have now is on at
:32:27. > :32:36.five Asian of the NHS. Staff leaving, not being paid properly. So
:32:37. > :32:39.pay and the NHS go hand in hand. Let's move onto another area of
:32:40. > :32:45.policy where there is some confusion. Who speaks for the Labour
:32:46. > :32:52.Party on nuclear weapons? Is it Emily Thornbury, or Nia Griffith,
:32:53. > :32:56.defence spokesperson? The Labour manifesto. It is clear. We are
:32:57. > :33:07.committed to the nuclear deterrent, and that is the definitive... Is it?
:33:08. > :33:11.Emily Thornbury said that Trident could be scrapped in the defence
:33:12. > :33:16.review you would have immediately after taking power. On LBC on Friday
:33:17. > :33:22.night. She didn't, actually. I listened to that. What she actually
:33:23. > :33:26.said is, as part of a Labour government coming in, a new
:33:27. > :33:31.government, there is always a defence review. But not the concept
:33:32. > :33:38.of Trident in its substance. She said there would be a review in
:33:39. > :33:42.terms of, and this is in our manifesto. When you reduce
:33:43. > :33:48.something, you review how it is operated. The review could scrap
:33:49. > :33:53.Trident. It won't scrap Trident. The review is in the context of how you
:33:54. > :33:59.protect it from cyber attacks. This will issue was seized upon that she
:34:00. > :34:04.was saying that we would have another review of Trident or Labour
:34:05. > :34:11.would ditch it. That is nonsense. You will have seen some reports that
:34:12. > :34:15.MI5 opened a file on Jeremy Corbyn in the early 90s because of his
:34:16. > :34:23.links to Irish republicanism. This has caused some people, his links to
:34:24. > :34:30.the IRA and Sinn Fein, it has caused some concern. Could you just listen
:34:31. > :34:37.to this clip and react. Do you condemn what the IRA did? I condemn
:34:38. > :34:41.all bombing. But do you condemn what the IRA did? I condemn what was done
:34:42. > :34:46.with the British Army as well as both sides as well. What happened in
:34:47. > :34:53.Derry in 1972 was pretty devastating as well. Do you distinguish between
:34:54. > :34:59.state forces, what the British Army did and the IRA? Well, in a sense,
:35:00. > :35:05.the treatment of IRA prisoners which made them into virtual political
:35:06. > :35:09.prisoners suggested that the British government and the state saw some
:35:10. > :35:16.kind of almost equivalent in it. My point is that the whole violence if
:35:17. > :35:23.you was terrible, was appalling, and came out of a process that had been
:35:24. > :35:28.allowed to fester in Northern Ireland for a very long time. That
:35:29. > :35:32.was from about two years ago. Can you explain why the Leader of the
:35:33. > :35:36.Labour Party, Her Majesty 's opposition, the man who would be our
:35:37. > :35:42.next Prime Minister, finds it so hard to condemn IRA arming? I think
:35:43. > :35:46.it has to be within the context that Jeremy Corbyn for many years trying
:35:47. > :35:55.to move the peace protest... Process along. So why wouldn't you condemn
:35:56. > :36:02.IRA bombing? Again, that was an issue, a traumatic event in Irish -
:36:03. > :36:08.British relations that went on for 30 years. It is a complicated
:36:09. > :36:13.matter. Bombing is not that complicated. If you are a man of
:36:14. > :36:17.peace, surely you would condemn the bomb and the bullet? Let me say
:36:18. > :36:23.this, I condemn the bomb and the bullet. Why can't your leader? You
:36:24. > :36:28.would have to ask Jeremy Corbyn, but that is in the context of what he
:36:29. > :36:30.was trying to do over a 25 year period to move the priest process
:36:31. > :36:33.along. Thank you for joining us. It's just gone 11.35,
:36:34. > :36:35.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:36:36. > :36:45.in Scotland and Wales. I'm Natalie Graham and this
:36:46. > :36:47.is the Sunday Politics This morning - in the second
:36:48. > :36:56.of our general election programmes focusing on key issues affecting
:36:57. > :36:58.this region, we'll be looking Do any of the parties
:36:59. > :37:02.have the right medicine to make And I'll be in Tonbridge in Kent,
:37:03. > :37:09.where kids are slugging it out on the football field on this
:37:10. > :37:11.Sunnny Sunday morning. We'll be talking education -
:37:12. > :37:14.what policies will score politicians Lots to talk about in
:37:15. > :37:18.the next 20 minutes. the Labour candidate in Hastings
:37:19. > :37:23.and Rye, Caroline Ansell, the Conservative Candidate for
:37:24. > :37:25.Eastbourne and Stephen Priestley, who's standing for UKIP
:37:26. > :37:27.in Folkestone and Hythe. We're going to start with
:37:28. > :37:34.the promises made by the parties Last week the three biggest parties
:37:35. > :37:44.set out their intentions As start with you, Caroline Ansell
:37:45. > :37:52.because you are defending a very small majority against the Lib Dems.
:37:53. > :37:58.The seat has a high number of elderly people and a relatively high
:37:59. > :38:03.property price. Your heart must some use of the manifesto, ?100,000 after
:38:04. > :38:08.the social care plan changes does not leave you much in the south of
:38:09. > :38:13.England. When it was released the reaction I was having on the
:38:14. > :38:18.doorstep was this was bald. The portal manifesto was bold, brave and
:38:19. > :38:29.had a degree of honesty -- the manifesto was.... -- the manifesto
:38:30. > :38:31.was.... We have been the party of Government and potentially will be
:38:32. > :38:40.agents game so there must be within the manifesto real action and real
:38:41. > :38:45.change. When they say bold do they like it? Most people, not just the
:38:46. > :38:49.elderly, their children and grandchildren who were hoping to
:38:50. > :38:54.benefit from property prices are very worried. Very often people
:38:55. > :38:58.reference their children and grandchildren and do not want them
:38:59. > :39:02.to be paying the cost for provision made now that cannot be delivered or
:39:03. > :39:07.afforded and that has been something that has often been said on the
:39:08. > :39:11.doorstep. People recognise it is bold and recognised the merit in
:39:12. > :39:15.very important detail to come and very important detail to come and
:39:16. > :39:19.that is where people have most questions that if they do have
:39:20. > :39:25.concerns, around the detail. Do you think, I mean, it is..., do
:39:26. > :39:32.you think Theresa May has been a declaration she is so far I have in
:39:33. > :39:36.the polls she can afford to lose if you vote here because she will make
:39:37. > :39:42.gains elsewhere in the country? I do not think so but I think there is a
:39:43. > :39:46.level of honesty around the very real challenges we will face should
:39:47. > :39:52.we be the party of Government once more and that is right has got to be
:39:53. > :39:58.fair. What I'm most welcome in the manifesto after campaigning very
:39:59. > :40:00.hard for, was the real lift in school funding.
:40:01. > :40:07.The Labour manifesto will have gone down very well with traditional
:40:08. > :40:10.Labour voters and may attract a lot of Green voters because it has quite
:40:11. > :40:15.a lot in common with their policies but in order to get into Government
:40:16. > :40:19.you must win back in places like Kent where you had seats under Tony
:40:20. > :40:23.Blair. How will your manifesto attract those people who have gone
:40:24. > :40:27.over to the Tories and Ukip? Because it appeals to a majority of people.
:40:28. > :40:33.What taxation plans, 95% of people What taxation plans, 95% of people
:40:34. > :40:39.will not be affected, and the spending commitments we made our
:40:40. > :40:44.funded and properly set out and the taxation for those will not affect
:40:45. > :40:46.most people saw just that basic message is important.
:40:47. > :40:51.There is some doubt about whether you will raise the amount of tax you
:40:52. > :40:54.say you will but on the issue of attracting voters in seats in
:40:55. > :41:00.Rochester, said that where there used to be Labour MP and just the
:41:01. > :41:04.basic of getting back into Government means you need to win
:41:05. > :41:10.there. How was the issue of not putting a limit on immigration when
:41:11. > :41:14.back Ukip voters? Because it has other policies around things like
:41:15. > :41:18.the NHS and education, housing and so on and those kind of very
:41:19. > :41:24.positive and radical policy that will win people over and issues like
:41:25. > :41:28.immigration, as I say, artificial targets simply will not work and I
:41:29. > :41:35.think you can get those arguments across but what people really care
:41:36. > :41:39.about is things like housing, NHS, education and social care.
:41:40. > :41:43.We will talk about those in the moment. Stephen Priestley, Ukip has
:41:44. > :41:49.not published the manifesto get unduly dubs said he was caught out
:41:50. > :41:54.slightly by the snap election -- he said he was caught out. How can we
:41:55. > :42:01.take you to get to be asleep when you prove to be scrambling around
:42:02. > :42:07.for policies full? Some of the -- take Ukip seriously. I would say
:42:08. > :42:11.some of the UK policies such as grammar schools have now been taken
:42:12. > :42:17.by the Tories. They rather like that one and that has always been a Ukip
:42:18. > :42:22.policy. We have always been a very committed to the NHS and as someone
:42:23. > :42:31.who works in the NHS myself and have done so for 20 years, the people in
:42:32. > :42:36.Kent really face a disadvantage because there is a disparity without
:42:37. > :42:41.wanting to become too technical, there is a formula which calculates
:42:42. > :42:45.the GP provision which they get from the clinical commissioning groups.
:42:46. > :42:49.Now, my point is that there are parts of Kent which get much less
:42:50. > :42:56.funding than other more affluent parts of Kent, in spite of the fact
:42:57. > :43:01.they are socially at a much greater disadvantage. I would say, are the
:43:02. > :43:06.people in the socially deprived parts of Kent worth less than those
:43:07. > :43:12.in the more affluent parts? And will we see that in the manifesto orders
:43:13. > :43:17.that just your policy? We will see a commitment to NHS. You have neatly
:43:18. > :43:19.led us into it. Now, cradle to grave care
:43:20. > :43:21.was the founding idea But many of our hospitals and
:43:22. > :43:25.GP surgeries are struggling So with the NHS high on the list
:43:26. > :43:29.of priorities for voters, what would the
:43:30. > :43:30.different parties prescribe? Bhavani Vadde has been taking a look
:43:31. > :43:33.in the most marginal constituency in the south-east -
:43:34. > :43:35.Brighton Kemptown. And this is the country's
:43:36. > :43:37.first eco gym. Read more they work out the more
:43:38. > :43:42.electricity they generate, And this is the country's
:43:43. > :43:44.first eco gym. Read more they work out the more
:43:45. > :43:46.electricity they generate, which offsets the energy costs
:43:47. > :43:48.for this business. If only NHS funding issues
:43:49. > :43:51.for the area could be solved so easily, because this gym
:43:52. > :43:56.is in Brighton, where the health The Brighton and Sussex University
:43:57. > :44:07.Hospital trust is in special measures and it also ended
:44:08. > :44:09.the financial year nearly And Brighton and Hove CCG,
:44:10. > :44:15.the organisation that plans and funds community health services
:44:16. > :44:18.such as GPs, has been I do not think the problems
:44:19. > :44:21.are unique to Brighton. In some ways Brighton is a microcosm
:44:22. > :44:25.for the problems faced by the NHS as a whole because the problems
:44:26. > :44:27.are right across the system and on almost every single aspect
:44:28. > :44:32.of health and social care. This gym happens to be in the heart
:44:33. > :44:34.of Brighton Kemptown, the most marginal constituency
:44:35. > :44:38.in the south-east, where the Conservatives won with a slim
:44:39. > :44:43.majority of 690 votes in 2015. So, could pledges on the NHS be
:44:44. > :44:49.a deciding factor on who wins This election is going to be
:44:50. > :44:58.the making or breaking of the NHS. We need to stop focusing so much
:44:59. > :45:03.on Brexit I think about the loss I have a son who has a neuromuscular
:45:04. > :45:14.condition which is a life limiting and we are seeing a lot
:45:15. > :45:17.of different health professionals. I think it's under threat
:45:18. > :45:24.because of the funding crisis. What do the political hopefuls
:45:25. > :45:26.of Brighton Kemptown propose as solutions to issues with the NHS,
:45:27. > :45:29.here and across the south-east? Labour's candidate is
:45:30. > :45:31.Lloyd Russell-Moyle. His party has pledged over
:45:32. > :45:37.?30 billion in extra funding for the NHS over the next
:45:38. > :45:39.parliament, by increasing income What that will do is it
:45:40. > :45:46.will make the hospital trusts have an investment so they can start
:45:47. > :45:49.to perform well. They will be able to start
:45:50. > :45:52.to recruit staff, which they have not been able to do as efficiently
:45:53. > :45:57.as we would like them to do. It will mean people who are patient
:45:58. > :46:01.can see doctors and a consultant within 18 week rather
:46:02. > :46:04.than sometimes the 12 month The Liberal Democrats
:46:05. > :46:07.are represented by Emily Tester, the party wants to put a penny
:46:08. > :46:12.in the pound on income tax to raise ?6 billion additional revenue that
:46:13. > :46:15.will be ring fenced for the NHS In this area it will bring a lot
:46:16. > :46:19.of money, 20 million for Brighton and Hove in total,
:46:20. > :46:24.5 million for mental health spending as well,
:46:25. > :46:28.which is an area which is Having that boost in funding
:46:29. > :46:32.will really help provide the services we need because this
:46:33. > :46:35.is an area where the NHS The Conservative candidate
:46:36. > :46:39.for Brighton Kemptown, Simon Kirby, was not available for interview,
:46:40. > :46:44.so we spoke to Henry Smith, who is standing in Crawley,
:46:45. > :46:47.where the hospital trust is the only one in the region has
:46:48. > :46:49.been rated as good. The Conservative Party has promised
:46:50. > :46:55.to increase NHS spending by a minimum of ?8 billion in real
:46:56. > :46:59.terms over the next five years. Here in Crawley we are already
:47:00. > :47:03.seeing the results of the increased We've seen emergency services
:47:04. > :47:08.returning to Crawley Hospital, an out of hours service available
:47:09. > :47:09.24/7. Of course we have to recognise
:47:10. > :47:14.a few in the south-east Of course we have to recognise
:47:15. > :47:16.here in the south-east that is a growing population,
:47:17. > :47:20.growing need, elderly population and that is why the extra investment
:47:21. > :47:23.announced by Theresa May into the NHS is going
:47:24. > :47:25.to be very necessary. The Greens pulled out of the contest
:47:26. > :47:27.in Brighton Kemptown, The party has not published
:47:28. > :47:32.its manifesto yet, but has pledged to rollback privatisation and close
:47:33. > :47:34.the NHS spending gap. That's a promise all
:47:35. > :47:37.the main parties have made. Here's a full list of all
:47:38. > :47:53.the candidates standing We did not hear from Ukip there but
:47:54. > :47:58.Stephen Priestley is in the studio. He gave us a specific example but in
:47:59. > :48:06.general terms what is Ukip solution to the problems facing the NHS? It
:48:07. > :48:14.is important we make things far better was greater levels of
:48:15. > :48:22.investment and focus on training to ensure we are bringing back the
:48:23. > :48:25.nurse programme, we want to try to simplify the processes that some of
:48:26. > :48:31.the health professionals have to go through today have more time with
:48:32. > :48:38.patients, reduce bureaucracy as well. These are some key areas.
:48:39. > :48:44.We have not had your manifesto yet. Caroline Ansell, your manifesto you
:48:45. > :48:50.let 100 -- 140,000 EU nationals in let 100 -- 140,000 EU nationals in
:48:51. > :48:55.the NHS stay and carry on. That -- is that go far enough to reassure
:48:56. > :48:59.them because we need them. We do need them and we have made that a
:49:00. > :49:06.top priority. Those negotiations will start 11 days after the
:49:07. > :49:12.election. What I was struck by their in the felled by a man who said we
:49:13. > :49:17.need to stop focusing on Brexit, but Brexit will just determine how able
:49:18. > :49:21.we are to provide the necessarily funding for the NHS and I am pleased
:49:22. > :49:22.we have committed to increased funding.
:49:23. > :49:26.But other parties like Peter's and But other parties like Peter's and
:49:27. > :49:33.guarantee the rights of those a new national. It is part of the
:49:34. > :49:37.EU nationals. It is important to EU nationals. It is important to
:49:38. > :49:42.rise up eight new generation of nurses, doctors and medical
:49:43. > :49:46.professionals. -- create a new generation of nurses. Peter, you are
:49:47. > :49:50.offering more money than the offering more money than the
:49:51. > :49:55.Conservatives but according to the independent health foundation there
:49:56. > :50:06.will still be a ?7 black hole in the NHS by 2021. It is just not enough.
:50:07. > :50:13.-- ?7 billion black hole. Even if you fund it... There are other
:50:14. > :50:17.things to be done, in particular the relationship between the NHS and
:50:18. > :50:22.adult social care and integrating both of them better. At the moment
:50:23. > :50:27.adult social care has been cut back which put additional burdens on the
:50:28. > :50:31.NHS and they both have to be brought together more closely. Bringing
:50:32. > :50:36.those too much more closely together will make the whole thing a run more
:50:37. > :50:40.efficiently for all the people in hospitals and requiring care at
:50:41. > :50:45.home. I could give one example from local authorities about how does not
:50:46. > :50:50.work at the moment but that would help lot too.
:50:51. > :50:52.Health is a huge subject, and I'm well aware we've barely
:50:53. > :51:00.And what type of schools should we create over the next five years?
:51:01. > :51:02.We're going to hear again from Bhavani, she's in Tonbridge
:51:03. > :51:05.Well, where better to find schoolchildren and burdens
:51:06. > :51:09.on a sunny Sunday morning but at a football match?
:51:10. > :51:12.I am at a tournament in Tunbridge to talk about education.
:51:13. > :51:14.Some might say it has been used as a political football.
:51:15. > :51:17.This tournament is taking place in Kent which has the highest number
:51:18. > :51:22.The blue and purple political teams want to see more grammars,
:51:23. > :51:24.while Labour, Lib Dems and the Greens are against
:51:25. > :51:31.To kick off this debate we have joining us a head teacher,
:51:32. > :51:40.You are a headteacher of a wide ability school and you represent
:51:41. > :51:47.What is your opinion on the offer and grammer schools from parties?
:51:48. > :51:49.I think the discussion about grammar schools within this debate
:51:50. > :51:52.is a bit of a distraction from the really key issues
:51:53. > :51:56.I think grammar skills and do a great job for the children
:51:57. > :51:58.they serve, but so do nonselective schools and comprehensive schools
:51:59. > :52:02.across the country and I think if we are going to have a really
:52:03. > :52:04.great education system in the UK it is about every school
:52:05. > :52:08.being great, every child having the opportunity to succeed
:52:09. > :52:15.and move and to achieve what they want to achieve.
:52:16. > :52:18.And that will only happen when we get all our schools properly funded
:52:19. > :52:22.This is your view despite being the former head of a grammar school
:52:23. > :52:27.Yeah, I have been the head of a grammar school and we did
:52:28. > :52:30.a great job for our children as well and I believe we are doing
:52:31. > :52:33.a good job for the school I am currently head of.
:52:34. > :52:35.But I think it goes beyond that, it is that every
:52:36. > :52:43.You have a child at a grammar school here in Kent and you received
:52:44. > :52:49.I'm very much supportive of what they do.
:52:50. > :52:51.It gives them a great opportunity, the children,
:52:52. > :52:55.But, the point Sally made, there are a lot of great schools out
:52:56. > :52:57.there, of whatever standard, lots of great teachers out
:52:58. > :52:59.there and they all need to be supported throughout.
:53:00. > :53:02.But certainly I would be supportive of more grammar schools
:53:03. > :53:06.As I say, to give children the opportunity within the education.
:53:07. > :53:13.Tell me about the type of school you go to and what do
:53:14. > :53:15.you think about the grammar schools education system?
:53:16. > :53:17.I go to a grammar in Tunbridge Wells, a boys grammar.
:53:18. > :53:20.And I think the grammar system is a great way to succeed
:53:21. > :53:25.You would like to see more grammar schools as well.
:53:26. > :53:28.We are now going to talk about funding.
:53:29. > :53:31.Money that the schools get is another contentious issue
:53:32. > :53:33.here in the south-east, and many patents and Conservative
:53:34. > :53:37.MPs in the region have been campaigning against the national
:53:38. > :53:39.funding formula introduced in December, and claim many schools
:53:40. > :53:44.Well, in their manifestos Labour, the Conservatives and the Lib Dems
:53:45. > :53:46.have promised more money for the schools budget so I am just
:53:47. > :53:51.Are you optimistic about the future as a result
:53:52. > :53:58.Really pleased to hear the parties are talking about putting more
:53:59. > :54:03.I think we must not lose sight of the National Fair Funding Formula
:54:04. > :54:06.because schools have not been fairly funded for many years.
:54:07. > :54:09.There has been a huge disparity in the amount of money per child
:54:10. > :54:10.that schools received across the country.
:54:11. > :54:12.Kent, under the National funding formula would actually
:54:13. > :54:16.be an overall gainer, but there will be schools will lose,
:54:17. > :54:19.and I think we need to see more money in the pot,
:54:20. > :54:22.we need to see a levelling, but we need to see a levelling up,
:54:23. > :54:26.Thank you to all of you for joining us today.
:54:27. > :54:34.Now time to hand back to the studio to you, Natalie.
:54:35. > :54:40.Caroline Ansell, you worked as a teacher, we heard from the head
:54:41. > :54:47.teacher who said grammar schools are a that the -- massive distraction.
:54:48. > :54:53.Now selective education is in your manifesto are you convinced? I will
:54:54. > :54:57.take more convincing. It will be subject to close scrutiny and debate
:54:58. > :55:00.going into the next Parliament should we be the party of
:55:01. > :55:04.Government. It is popular with parents and
:55:05. > :55:09.pupils. It seemed to be popular with the parent 's grammar school
:55:10. > :55:15.children but that is a much bigger picture here for us to look at and
:55:16. > :55:19.that is every child and excellence for every school.
:55:20. > :55:23.Peter, along with the Lib Dems and Green 's Labour pause grammar
:55:24. > :55:28.schools and you call them the Conservative vanity project. If you
:55:29. > :55:35.got into school the logical thing to do would be get rid of existing
:55:36. > :55:38.ones, wouldn't it? I would prefer a universal comprehensive education
:55:39. > :55:44.system grammar school simply do not work, low research has a short
:55:45. > :55:49.overall in the areas, they have better results, this has not been
:55:50. > :55:53.shown. It is a vanity project and would be damaging to education to
:55:54. > :55:59.create more of them. For those parents with children and grammar
:56:00. > :56:03.skills they do like them but for the other 80% they do not.
:56:04. > :56:06.What about Conservative plans to change emissions policy so
:56:07. > :56:13.middle-class families do not have an advantage when it comes to getting a
:56:14. > :56:17.place in schools -- admissions policy. I still think you need is a
:56:18. > :56:24.much better comprehensively planned education system, the way we move
:56:25. > :56:29.towards academies and free schools and now grammar schools are just
:56:30. > :56:32.means you are losing control of education and that needs to be
:56:33. > :56:39.brought back again. I think that is innovation. Stephen
:56:40. > :56:43.Priestley, you want a grammar school in every town and your leader says
:56:44. > :56:49.he specifically wants to help working-class children. How would
:56:50. > :56:54.you do that? Attempts in Kent are not good work. If I could talk about
:56:55. > :56:59.the far greater emphasis needed on vocational training for 14 and 15
:57:00. > :57:06.Google especially. Not everyone academically minded and that needs
:57:07. > :57:13.to be a broad spectrum of talent including musical and artistic
:57:14. > :57:18.talent. In a sentence, Ukip wants to equip the future generations with
:57:19. > :57:21.the vocational skills that are needed for carpentry, bricklaying
:57:22. > :57:27.and all of these vital things we reduce the dependency on a very
:57:28. > :57:35.skilled workforce coming in from abroad. Caroline, about funding, the
:57:36. > :57:42.Government plans to change the formula, that is on hold because of
:57:43. > :57:47.the election. I got a letter from a headteacher saying school funding is
:57:48. > :57:54.under severe threat. Will that stop now you have announced Europe policy
:57:55. > :57:58.to not let any school loos under this formula -- announced Europe
:57:59. > :58:03.policy. That extra funding is so very welcome at what I hope the
:58:04. > :58:07.promotion of that new funding will still come through because a piece
:58:08. > :58:14.for we are severely disadvantaged by that formula. -- in Eastbourne.
:58:15. > :58:17.There's just time for some of the other news you may have
:58:18. > :58:18.missed in Sixty Seconds with Yetunde Yusuf.
:58:19. > :58:21.The controversial landlord who banned what he called coloured
:58:22. > :58:22.peoples from letting his properties, claiming
:58:23. > :58:27.The equality and human rights commission has
:58:28. > :58:30.applied for an injunction against Fergus Wilson, for his lettings
:58:31. > :58:38.A reasonable man will say to me this is not racist,
:58:39. > :58:41.And I think the Equalities Commission has not
:58:42. > :58:51.Two councils in Kent have taken litter
:58:52. > :58:55.wardens off the streets after a BBC investigation found that they were
:58:56. > :58:58.being paid a bigger bonuses the more tickets they handed out.
:58:59. > :58:59.Maidstone Borough Council were first and
:59:00. > :59:01.then Ashford Borough Council said wardens working
:59:02. > :59:05.And commuters using Southern rail are facing more
:59:06. > :59:07.disruption this summer after the train drivers union Aslef
:59:08. > :59:09.announced an overtime ban from the end of May.
:59:10. > :59:11.The RMT union say they will also be striking.
:59:12. > :59:14.It comes after talks over driver on the trains broke down.
:59:15. > :59:23.Southern say they are dismayed by the decision.
:59:24. > :59:26.Don't forget this programme is part of a series of shows
:59:27. > :59:30.the Conservatives, Labour and UKIP in the studio.
:59:31. > :59:32.We'll be hearing from all the major parties standing candidates
:59:33. > :59:36.in the south-east on a range of issues leading up to June 8th.
:59:37. > :59:39.So, for now, lets thank our guests today - Caroline Ansell,
:59:40. > :59:40.cancelled. And rent to own is still our policy. Thank you very much, Tom
:59:41. > :59:47.Brake. Andrew, back to you. So, two and half weeks
:59:48. > :59:50.to go till polling day, let's take stock of the campaign
:59:51. > :59:52.so far and look ahead Sam, Isabel and Steve
:59:53. > :00:06.are with me again. Sam, Mrs May had made a great thing
:00:07. > :00:10.about the just about managing. Not the poorest of the poor, but not
:00:11. > :00:17.really affluent people, who are maybe OK but it's a bit of a
:00:18. > :00:21.struggle. What is in the manifesto for them? There is something about
:00:22. > :00:25.the high profile items in the manifesto. She said she wants to
:00:26. > :00:30.help those just above the poorest level. But if you look at things
:00:31. > :00:35.like the winter fuel allowance, which is going to be given only to
:00:36. > :00:40.the poorest. If you look at free school meals for infants, those for
:00:41. > :00:45.the poorest are going to be kept, but the rest will go. The social
:00:46. > :00:51.care plan, those who are renting or in properties worth up to ?90,000,
:00:52. > :00:58.they are going to be treated, but those in properties worth above
:00:59. > :01:03.that, 250,000, for example, will have to pay. Which leads to the
:01:04. > :01:08.question - what is being done for the just about managings? There is
:01:09. > :01:12.something, the personal allowance that David Cameron promised in 2015,
:01:13. > :01:19.that they are not making a big deal of that, because they cannot say by
:01:20. > :01:26.how much. So you are looking in tax rises on the just about managings.
:01:27. > :01:35.Where will the tax rises come from. We do not know, that there is the 40
:01:36. > :01:38.million pounds gap for the Tories to reach what they are pledging in
:01:39. > :01:45.their manifesto. We do not know how that is going to be made up, more
:01:46. > :01:48.tax, or more borrowing? So that is why the questions of the
:01:49. > :01:53.implications of removing the tax lock are so potentially difficult
:01:54. > :01:56.for Tory MPs. The Labour manifesto gives figures for the cost of
:01:57. > :02:00.certain policies and where the revenue will come from. You can
:02:01. > :02:05.argue about the figures, but at least we have the figures. The Tory
:02:06. > :02:10.manifesto is opaque on these matters. That applies to both the
:02:11. > :02:14.manifestos. Looking at the Labour manifesto on the way here this
:02:15. > :02:18.morning, when you look at the section on care for the elderly,
:02:19. > :02:23.they simply say, there are various ways in which the money for this can
:02:24. > :02:29.be raised. They are specific on other things. They are, and we heard
:02:30. > :02:36.John McDonnell this morning being very on that, and saying there is
:02:37. > :02:43.not a single ? in Tory manifesto. I have only got to page 66. It is
:02:44. > :02:48.quite broad brush and they are very open to challenge. For example, on
:02:49. > :02:53.the detail of a number of their flagship things. There is no detail
:02:54. > :02:58.on their immigration policy. They reiterate the ambition, but not how
:02:59. > :03:04.they are going to do that, without a massive increase in resource for
:03:05. > :03:10.Borders officials. We are at a time where average wages are lagging
:03:11. > :03:14.behind prices. And in work benefits remain frozen. I would have thought
:03:15. > :03:20.that the just-about-managings are people who are in work but they need
:03:21. > :03:26.some in work benefits to make life tolerable and be able to pay bills.
:03:27. > :03:34.Doesn't she has to do more for them? Maybe, but this whole manifesto was
:03:35. > :03:40.her inner circle saying, right, this is our chance to express our... It
:03:41. > :03:45.partly reads like a sort of philosophical essay at times. About
:03:46. > :03:49.the challenges, individualism against collectivism. Some of it
:03:50. > :03:55.reads quite well and is quite interesting, but in terms of its
:03:56. > :03:59.detail, Labour would never get away with it. They wouldn't be allowed to
:04:00. > :04:04.be so vague about where taxes are going to rise. We know there are
:04:05. > :04:09.going to be tax rises after the election, but we don't know where
:04:10. > :04:16.they will be. 100%, there will be tax rises. We know that they wanted
:04:17. > :04:22.a tax rise in the last budget, but they couldn't get it through because
:04:23. > :04:27.of the 2015 manifesto. Labour do offer a lot more detail. People
:04:28. > :04:33.could disagree with it, but there is a lot more detail. More to get your
:04:34. > :04:38.teeth into. About capital gains tax and the rises for better owners and
:04:39. > :04:45.so on. The SNP manifesto comes out this week, and the Greens and Sinn
:04:46. > :04:48.Fein. We think Ukip as well. There are more manifestos to come. The Lib
:04:49. > :04:55.Dems have already brought theirs out. Isn't the Liberal Democrat
:04:56. > :05:01.campaign in trouble? It doesn't seem to be doing particular the well in
:05:02. > :05:04.the polls, or at the local elections a few weeks ago. The Liberal
:05:05. > :05:10.Democrats are trying to fish in quite a small pool for votes. They
:05:11. > :05:15.are looking to get votes from those remainers who want to reverse the
:05:16. > :05:20.result, in effect. Tim Farron is promising a second referendum on the
:05:21. > :05:28.deal at the end of the negotiation process. And that is a hard sell. So
:05:29. > :05:34.those voting for remain on June 23 are not low hanging fruit by any
:05:35. > :05:39.means? Polls suggesting that half of those want to reverse the result, so
:05:40. > :05:43.that is a feeling of about 20% on the Lib Dems, and they are getting
:05:44. > :05:48.slightly less than half at the moment, but there are not a huge
:05:49. > :05:56.amount of votes for them to get on that strategy. It doesn't feel like
:05:57. > :06:01.Tim Farron and the Lib Dems have promised enough. They are making a
:06:02. > :06:05.very serious case on cannabis use in a nightclub, but the optics of what
:06:06. > :06:08.they are discussing doesn't make them look like an anchor in a future
:06:09. > :06:14.coalition government that they would need to be. I wonder if we are
:06:15. > :06:18.seeing the re-emergence of the 2-party system? And it is not the
:06:19. > :06:22.same two parties. In Scotland, the dynamics of this election seemed to
:06:23. > :06:24.be the Nationalists against the Conservatives. In England, if you
:06:25. > :06:42.look at what has happened to be Ukip vote, and what Sam was saying about
:06:43. > :06:43.the Lib Dems are struggling a bit to get some traction, it is
:06:44. > :06:45.overwhelmingly Labour and the Conservatives. A different 2-party
:06:46. > :06:48.system from Scotland, but a 2-party system. There are a number of
:06:49. > :06:53.different election is going on in parallel. In Scotland it is about
:06:54. > :06:57.whether you are unionist or not. Here, we have the collapse of the
:06:58. > :07:03.Ukip vote, which looks as though it is being redistributed in the
:07:04. > :07:09.Tories' favour. This is a unique election, and will not necessarily
:07:10. > :07:12.set the trend for elections to come. In the Tory manifesto, I spotted the
:07:13. > :07:21.fact that the fixed term Parliament act is going to be scrapped. That
:07:22. > :07:25.got almost no coverage! It turned out to be academic anyway, that it
:07:26. > :07:29.tells you something about how Theresa May is feeling, and she
:07:30. > :07:34.wants the control to call an election whenever it suits her.
:07:35. > :07:43.Re-emergence of the 2-party system, for this election or beyond? For
:07:44. > :07:47.this election, yes, but it shows the sort of robust strength of parties
:07:48. > :07:52.and their fragility. In other words, the Lib Dems haven't really
:07:53. > :07:56.recovered from the losses in the last general election, and are
:07:57. > :08:00.therefore not really seen as a robust vehicle to deliver Remain. If
:08:01. > :08:05.they were, they might be doing better. The Labour Party hasn't
:08:06. > :08:10.recovered in Scotland, and yet, if you look at the basic divide in
:08:11. > :08:15.England and Scotland and you see two parties battling it out, it is very,
:08:16. > :08:20.very hard for the smaller parties to break through and last. Many appear
:08:21. > :08:26.briefly on the political stage and then disappear again. The election
:08:27. > :08:31.had the ostensible goal of Brexit, but we haven't heard much about it
:08:32. > :08:38.in the campaign. Perhaps the Tories want to get back onto that. David
:08:39. > :08:41.Davis sounding quite tough this morning, the Brexit minister, saying
:08:42. > :08:45.there is no chance we will talk about 100 billion. And we have to
:08:46. > :08:51.have power in the negotiations on the free trade deal or what ever it
:08:52. > :08:55.is. I think they are keen to get the subject of the manifesto at this
:08:56. > :09:00.point, because it has not started too well. There is an irony that
:09:01. > :09:05.Theresa May ostensibly called the election because she needed a
:09:06. > :09:08.stronger hand in the Brexit negotiations, and there was an
:09:09. > :09:11.opportunity for the Lib Dems, with their unique offer of being the
:09:12. > :09:17.party that is absolutely against the outcome of the referendum, and
:09:18. > :09:22.offering another chance. There hasn't been much airtime on that
:09:23. > :09:28.particular pledge, because instead, this election has segued into being
:09:29. > :09:32.all about leadership. Theresa May's leadership, and looking again at the
:09:33. > :09:40.Tory manifesto, I was struck that she was saying that this is my plan
:09:41. > :09:46.for the future, not ABBA plan. Even when talking about social care, he
:09:47. > :09:50.manages to work in a bit about Theresa May and Brexit. And Boris
:09:51. > :09:55.Johnson this morning, an interview he gave on another political
:09:56. > :09:59.programme this morning, it was extraordinarily sycophantic for him.
:10:00. > :10:06.Isn't Theresa May wonderful. There is a man trying to secure his job in
:10:07. > :10:12.the Foreign Office! Will he succeed? I think she will leave him. Better
:10:13. > :10:18.in the tent than out. What did you make of David Davis' remarks? He was
:10:19. > :10:24.basically saying, we will walk away from the negotiating table if the
:10:25. > :10:32.Europeans slam a bill for 100 billion euros. The point is that the
:10:33. > :10:36.Europeans will not slam a bill for 100 billion euros on the negotiating
:10:37. > :10:41.table. That is the gross figure. There are all sorts of things that
:10:42. > :10:46.need to be taken into account. I imagine they will ask for something
:10:47. > :10:53.around the 50 or ?60 billion mark. It looks that they are trying to
:10:54. > :10:56.make it look like a concession when they do make their demands in order
:10:57. > :11:01.to soften the ground for what is going to happen just two weeks after
:11:02. > :11:05.general election day. He makes a reasonable point about having
:11:06. > :11:09.parallel talks. What they want to do straightaway is deal with the bill,
:11:10. > :11:14.Northern Ireland and citizens rights. All of those things are very
:11:15. > :11:17.complicated and interlinked issues, which cannot be dealt with in
:11:18. > :11:23.isolation. I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up with parallel talks,
:11:24. > :11:29.just to work out where we are going with Northern Ireland and the
:11:30. > :11:33.border. Steve, you can't work out what the Northern Ireland border
:11:34. > :11:38.will be, and EU citizens' writes here, until you work out what our
:11:39. > :11:43.relationship with the EU in the future will be. Indeed. The British
:11:44. > :11:47.government is under pressure to deal quickly with the border issue in
:11:48. > :11:52.Ireland, but feel they can't do so because when you have a tariff free
:11:53. > :11:55.arrangement outcome, or an arrangement that is much more
:11:56. > :12:00.protectionist, and that will determine partly the nature of the
:12:01. > :12:03.border. You cannot have a quick agreement on that front without
:12:04. > :12:07.knowing the rest of the deal. I think the negotiation will be
:12:08. > :12:12.complex. I am certain they want a deal rather than none, because this
:12:13. > :12:18.is no deal thing is part of the negotiation at this early stage.
:12:19. > :12:21.Sounding tough in the general election campaign also works
:12:22. > :12:29.electorally. But after the election, it will be a tough negotiation,
:12:30. > :12:32.beginning with this cost of Brexit. My understanding is that the
:12:33. > :12:37.government feels it's got to make the Europeans think they will not do
:12:38. > :12:42.a deal in order to get a deal. They don't want no deal. Absolutely not.
:12:43. > :12:45.And I'm sure it plays into the election. I'm sure the rhetoric will
:12:46. > :12:50.change when the election is over. That's all for today,
:12:51. > :12:52.thank you to all my guests. The Daily Politics will be
:12:53. > :12:55.back on BBC Two at 12.00 And tomorrow evening I will be
:12:56. > :12:59.starting my series of interviews with the party leaders -
:13:00. > :13:01.first up is the Prime Minister, Theresa May,
:13:02. > :13:03.that's at 7pm on BBC One. And I'll be back here at the same
:13:04. > :13:06.time on BBC One next Sunday. Remember - if it's Sunday,
:13:07. > :13:55.it's the Sunday Politics. We've made great strides
:13:56. > :13:57.tackling HIV. Imagine if we could
:13:58. > :14:00.create a movement