:00:38. > :00:41.Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:44.New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,
:00:45. > :00:48.on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.
:00:49. > :00:50.Are the politicians and the security services doing
:00:51. > :00:56.Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"
:00:57. > :00:59.in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans
:01:00. > :01:03.for a new Commission to counter extremism.
:01:04. > :01:07.We'll be talking to the Security Minister.
:01:08. > :01:09.Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000
:01:10. > :01:15.more staff at security and intelligence agencies.
:01:16. > :01:18.And in the South East: Whether you're 18 or 80 your vote
:01:19. > :01:20.counts just the same, so what are the politicians
:01:21. > :01:22.promising the newest and oldest voters in 2017 -
:01:23. > :01:27.supporters. In London, we look at what the Conservatives are offering
:01:28. > :01:34.the capital, having voted Remain. To help guide me through this
:01:35. > :01:36.morning, I'm joined by Steve Richards, Julia
:01:37. > :01:38.Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall. They'll be sharing their thoughts
:01:39. > :01:43.on Twitter and you can join So, with a week and a half to go,
:01:44. > :01:50.the election campaign And some recent polls
:01:51. > :01:53.suggest the race is just We'll be taking a closer look
:01:54. > :02:00.at that in just a moment but, first, here are some of the key events over
:02:01. > :02:03.the next 10 days or so: Tonight at 6pm will see the third
:02:04. > :02:08.of the party leader interviews. This time it's the SNP's
:02:09. > :02:10.Nicola Sturgeon facing questions While many across the UK will be
:02:11. > :02:16.enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday, there will be no break
:02:17. > :02:18.in campaigning for And in the evening it will be
:02:19. > :02:24.the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall On Tuesday the SNP
:02:25. > :02:28.publish their manifesto - the last of the major parties to do
:02:29. > :02:31.so - after last week's Then on Wednesday, the BBC's
:02:32. > :02:34.Election Debate will see representatives from the seven main
:02:35. > :02:38.parties debate in front On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim
:02:39. > :02:47.Farron will have his interview... Before Friday's Question Time
:02:48. > :02:49.special with Theresa May They won't debate each other,
:02:50. > :02:53.but will take questions consecutively from members
:02:54. > :02:54.of the audience. The final week of campaigning
:02:55. > :02:57.is a short one, with politicians cramming in three days
:02:58. > :03:05.of door-knocking before voters go We'll have an exit poll once
:03:06. > :03:11.voting has ended at 10pm, with the result expected early
:03:12. > :03:14.in the morning of June 9th. Well, it's Sunday, and that always
:03:15. > :03:17.means a spate of new opinion And they make for fascinating,
:03:18. > :03:20.if a tad confusing, reading. There are five new opinion
:03:21. > :03:22.polls today, which have the Conservative lead
:03:23. > :03:24.over Labour anywhere from six points to 14 points.
:03:25. > :03:28.So, what's going on? Professor John Curtice
:03:29. > :03:30.is the expert we always turn to at times like this,
:03:31. > :03:43.and he joins me from Glasgow. Take us through these polls. They
:03:44. > :03:49.seem to be all over the place? They may seem to be but there is a very
:03:50. > :03:52.consistent key message. Four of these five polls, if you compare
:03:53. > :03:58.them with what they were saying before the Conservative manifesto
:03:59. > :04:03.launch on the 18th, four say the Conservatives are down by two
:04:04. > :04:10.points. Four of them say the Labour vote is up by two points. A clear
:04:11. > :04:15.consistent message. The Conservative lead has narrowed. Why does this
:04:16. > :04:18.matter? It matters because we are now in a position where the leads
:04:19. > :04:23.are such that the Conservatives can no longer be sure of getting the
:04:24. > :04:27.landslide majority they want. Some posters suggesting they may be in
:04:28. > :04:37.trouble and it is going to get rather close. Others suggested is
:04:38. > :04:41.further apart. There are two major sources of... The Poles agree that
:04:42. > :04:47.young voters will vote Labour if they vote. Older voters will vote
:04:48. > :04:50.for the Conservatives. How many of those younger voters will turn out
:04:51. > :04:55.to vote? The second thing is whether the evidence in the opinion polls
:04:56. > :04:59.that the Conservatives are advancing more in the North of England and the
:05:00. > :05:03.Midlands is realised that the ballot box? If it is not realised, the
:05:04. > :05:06.Tories chances of getting a landslide look remote. If it is,
:05:07. > :05:13.they could still well indeed get a majority more than 80%. The
:05:14. > :05:18.Conservatives have lost some ground depending on which opinion poll you
:05:19. > :05:24.look at. What about the Labour Party? It is gaining ground. It has
:05:25. > :05:30.been gaining ground ever since week one. They started on 26, they now
:05:31. > :05:34.average 35. There were a lot of people out there at the beginning of
:05:35. > :05:38.the campaign who were saying, I usually vote Labour but the truth is
:05:39. > :05:42.I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn. They seem to have decided the Labour
:05:43. > :05:49.manifesto wasn't so bad. They have looked at Theresa May and have said,
:05:50. > :05:52.we will stick with Labour. Labour have managed to draw back into the
:05:53. > :05:57.fold some of their traditional voters who were disenchanted,
:05:58. > :06:00.together with, crucially, some of those younger voters who have never
:06:01. > :06:05.voted before, who have always been a particular target for Jeremy Corbyn.
:06:06. > :06:09.What is your reaction to previous opinion polls and elections weather
:06:10. > :06:14.has been a feeling that some of the Labour support has been overstated?
:06:15. > :06:18.This be a worry this time? That is one of the uncertainties that faces
:06:19. > :06:23.the opinion polls and the rest of us. We had a conference on Friday at
:06:24. > :06:28.which it was carefully explained that pollsters have been trying to
:06:29. > :06:32.correct the errors that resulted in an overestimation of Labour support
:06:33. > :06:36.a couple of years ago, particularly among younger voters. You shouldn't
:06:37. > :06:40.assume the opinion polls will be wrong this time because they were
:06:41. > :06:48.wrong the last time. We want in truth know whether or not the polls
:06:49. > :06:52.have got it right. Even if they are wrong in terms of the level, they
:06:53. > :06:56.are not wrong in terms of the trend. The trends have been dramatic so
:06:57. > :07:03.far. A big rise in Tory support early on at the expense of Ukip. And
:07:04. > :07:07.subsequently, a remarkable rise in Labour support, albeit from a low
:07:08. > :07:11.initial baseline. This election has already seen quite a lot of
:07:12. > :07:15.movement. We shouldn't rule out the possibility there will be yet more
:07:16. > :07:24.in the ten days to come. That is his analysis. Let's talk to
:07:25. > :07:29.the panel. Julia, how concerned should Conservative headquarters be
:07:30. > :07:33.at this particular point at what looks like an apparent surge by
:07:34. > :07:38.Labour? Depends if you want a massive landslide majority or might
:07:39. > :07:42.not. I assume the Tory party do. Whether anybody thinks that is a
:07:43. > :07:47.good idea is a different matter. Undoubtedly the manifesto league was
:07:48. > :07:54.a total disaster. Social care policy and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the
:07:55. > :07:58.Labour manifesto was very appealing. The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby
:07:59. > :08:04.was clear. It is all about Theresa May. Don't even mention the
:08:05. > :08:07.candidate or the party. The Labour Party, the candidates are on the
:08:08. > :08:12.moderate side are saying, don't mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been
:08:13. > :08:17.a battle between two big people. The more we have seen of Theresa May,
:08:18. > :08:22.she has gone down. The more we have seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone
:08:23. > :08:25.up. If you make it about strong and stable leadership and then you do
:08:26. > :08:29.something like a massive unprecedented U-turn on a key policy
:08:30. > :08:33.like social care, the knock is even greater. Do you think that is the
:08:34. > :08:38.reason for the change in the opinion polls or is Labour gaining some
:08:39. > :08:41.momentum? I think it is part of the reason. You can understand why the
:08:42. > :08:45.focus was on her at the beginning because her personal ratings were
:08:46. > :08:48.stratospheric. What is interesting is all successful leaders basically
:08:49. > :08:54.cast a spell over voters in the media. None of them are titans. All
:08:55. > :08:59.of them are flawed. It is a question of when the spell is broken. This is
:09:00. > :09:03.a first for a leader's spell to be broken during an election campaign.
:09:04. > :09:06.That was a moment of high significance. The fact the Labour
:09:07. > :09:12.Party campaign is more robust than many thought it would be is the
:09:13. > :09:16.other factor. I think it is the combination of the two, that the
:09:17. > :09:21.trend, as Professor John Curtis said, the trend has been this
:09:22. > :09:25.narrow. There has not been much campaigning. Local campaigning
:09:26. > :09:29.resumed on Thursday, national campaigning on Friday. Do you think,
:09:30. > :09:32.Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls are reflecting what happened in
:09:33. > :09:38.Manchester and people's thoughts about which party will keep them
:09:39. > :09:41.safe? No, I think that will come next week. I think it is too soon
:09:42. > :09:48.for that. It was quite understandable from the V -- the
:09:49. > :09:53.very beginning for Lynton Crosby to frame the campaign in terms of
:09:54. > :10:00.Theresa May and Brexit. The electorate can have its own view.
:10:01. > :10:06.You always have to go back to Clinton's it's the economy stupid
:10:07. > :10:10.for most of the electorate. It is framed in your electricity bill. It
:10:11. > :10:15.is framed in your jobs. Both manifestos have got more holes in
:10:16. > :10:20.them than Swiss cheese. It comes down to which manifesto you believe.
:10:21. > :10:24.The Labour manifesto makes more promises about things you care about
:10:25. > :10:29.like your electricity bill. Interesting, but in the end despite
:10:30. > :10:34.while we thought would be a Brexit election, it has been a lot about
:10:35. > :10:37.public services. It always comes down to bread-and-butter issues. I
:10:38. > :10:41.don't think we have quite seen how the terrorist you has played out. We
:10:42. > :10:45.had the Westminster attack only a couple of months ago. That was
:10:46. > :10:49.already factored in in terms of who you trust and who you don't trust.
:10:50. > :10:55.The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is already factored in. People actually
:10:56. > :10:56.care about how ordinary government policies affect their lives. Thank
:10:57. > :10:58.you very much. The election campaign was,
:10:59. > :11:01.of course, put on hold following the terrorist
:11:02. > :11:02.attack in Manchester But now that campaigning has
:11:03. > :11:05.resumed, it's hardly surprising that security
:11:06. > :11:07.is now a primary concern. The Labour Party has announced it
:11:08. > :11:21.would recruit 1,000 more Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at
:11:22. > :11:26.short while ago, says previous cuts have undermined security.
:11:27. > :11:31.It seems that the cuts in police numbers have led to some very
:11:32. > :11:37.dangerous situation is emerging. It is also a question of a community
:11:38. > :11:40.response as well. So that where, an imam, for example, lets the police
:11:41. > :11:45.he is concerned about a muddy, I would hope they would act. And I
:11:46. > :11:46.would hope we have -- and I would hope they would have the resources
:11:47. > :11:47.to act as well. Joining me now from Leeds
:11:48. > :11:57.is the Shadow Justice Good morning. You have announced a
:11:58. > :12:01.thousand more Security and Intelligence agency staff. That is
:12:02. > :12:04.in line with what the government has already announced and the Shadow
:12:05. > :12:07.Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has said you would not be spending any
:12:08. > :12:13.more money. It doesn't amount to much, does it? That is just one of
:12:14. > :12:20.the parts of our pledge card on the safer communities. There is also
:12:21. > :12:23.10,000 extra police, because the Conservatives cut the police by
:12:24. > :12:27.20,000. That 10,000 extra police would mean in -- and extra police
:12:28. > :12:33.officer in each neighbourhood. There are 3000 extra put -- prison
:12:34. > :12:41.officers. Prison staff has been cut by 6000. That is a third. It is not
:12:42. > :12:46.helping keep communities safer. We are pledging 3000 extra
:12:47. > :12:55.firefighters. Also, a thousand extra security staff and 500 extra border
:12:56. > :12:59.guards. There have been 13 areas identified where our borders are not
:13:00. > :13:03.as secure as they should be. That is the list of numbers you have given.
:13:04. > :13:06.If we concentrate on the security services, because it was Jeremy
:13:07. > :13:11.Corbyn he said there will be more police on the streets under Labour.
:13:12. > :13:17.If the security sources need more resources they should get them. Why
:13:18. > :13:21.aren't you giving them more? We are committing to a thousand more
:13:22. > :13:28.police. The Godinet is doing that as well. You are not committing
:13:29. > :13:33.anything more. The government has not delivered on that promise. We
:13:34. > :13:36.will deliver on that promise is -- promise. What Jeremy has made very
:13:37. > :13:41.clear is that you can't do security on the cheap. Austerity has to stop
:13:42. > :13:47.at the police station door, and at the hospital door. But we will be
:13:48. > :13:51.giving the resources required to keep our communities safer. So you
:13:52. > :13:58.will give them the resources and more powers? Well, the police need
:13:59. > :14:01.to be empowered. But when you listen to what the Police Federation are
:14:02. > :14:08.saying, they have been speaking out for a long time about the danger
:14:09. > :14:13.caused by police cuts. And I'm talking not only about terrorism,
:14:14. > :14:17.not only about acts of extreme violence, but anything from
:14:18. > :14:23.anti-social behaviour to burglary. Use it more powers. What sort of
:14:24. > :14:28.powers are you thinking of giving the security services? We need to
:14:29. > :14:31.listen to them. That is not a power. We need to listen to the
:14:32. > :14:37.intelligence community and the security service, to the army and
:14:38. > :14:40.the police, about what they think and how they think our communities
:14:41. > :14:45.could be made safe. One thing is clear. Cutting the number of police
:14:46. > :14:51.by 20,000 makes our community is less safe, not more safe. You said
:14:52. > :14:56.you will listen to the security services. Can voters be reassured
:14:57. > :15:00.and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn will listen to the security services
:15:01. > :15:05.and the police in terms of more powers if that is what they want?
:15:06. > :15:09.Until now he has spent his whole political career voting against
:15:10. > :15:15.measures designed to tackle home-grown and international
:15:16. > :15:18.terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on safer communities earlier this week
:15:19. > :15:23.made clear he is listening to the security services. So he would grant
:15:24. > :15:32.those new powers. He voted against the terrorism Act in 2000, into
:15:33. > :15:35.thousands and six. In 2011. And in 2014, the data retention and
:15:36. > :15:41.investigatory Powers act. Which new powers will he be happy to enact?
:15:42. > :15:46.Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and
:15:47. > :15:50.many Conservative MPs, voted against legislation where they thought it
:15:51. > :15:53.would be ill-advised, ineffective or actually counter-productive. It is a
:15:54. > :16:00.very complex situation. What we don't want to do is introduce
:16:01. > :16:03.hastily prepared laws with one eye to the newspaper headlines, which
:16:04. > :16:06.can act as recruiting sergeants for terrorism. And actually, when I said
:16:07. > :16:09.earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made clear in his speech this week that
:16:10. > :16:13.he has been listening to the security services, what he said
:16:14. > :16:19.about the international situation has also been said by the former
:16:20. > :16:22.head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and her predecessor. As well as
:16:23. > :16:27.president of back -- President Barack Obama.
:16:28. > :16:33.You say he will give the police and security services the resources and
:16:34. > :16:38.powers they need. If we look back at some of the legislation Jeremy
:16:39. > :16:48.Corbyn and others voted against in 2000, it gave the Secretary of State
:16:49. > :16:53.the -- new powers... Does Jeremy Corbyn still think that is a bad
:16:54. > :16:58.idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and
:16:59. > :17:01.others... I know you want to bracket it with Conservatives but I'm
:17:02. > :17:05.interested in what Jeremy Corbyn will do when he says we are going to
:17:06. > :17:09.be smarter about fighting terrorism. If he's not prepared to vote in
:17:10. > :17:15.favour of those sorts of measures, or trying to impose restrictions on
:17:16. > :17:21.suspects, I'm trying to find out what he will do. It is a complex
:17:22. > :17:25.situation. With this legislation the devil is often in the detail. If it
:17:26. > :17:28.was a simple and stopping terrorism by voting a piece of legislation
:17:29. > :17:37.through Parliament, it would have been stopped a long time ago. Sadly
:17:38. > :17:40.there are no easy answers, and that is recognised by Barack Obama,
:17:41. > :17:44.Stella Rimington, the head of the MI5, by David Davis and other
:17:45. > :17:49.Conservative MPs. What is clear, as Jeremy made clear in his speech this
:17:50. > :17:53.week, is the way things are being done currently is not working. We
:17:54. > :17:58.have got to be tough on terrorism and the unforgivable acts of murder,
:17:59. > :18:03.but also tough on the causes of terrorism as well. The sad truth is
:18:04. > :18:15.there are no easy answers. If there were, the problem would have been
:18:16. > :18:17.solved a long time ago. If you more security and terrorism officers but
:18:18. > :18:20.your leader is still uncomfortable with giving them the powers they
:18:21. > :18:23.need to do their jobs because it is complicated legislation, they will
:18:24. > :18:32.want to know how you are going to do it. At another stop the War rally in
:18:33. > :18:41.2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder of a charity worker was jingoism. At
:18:42. > :18:46.the beginning of that speech he mentioned the importance of the
:18:47. > :18:50.one-minute silence for the memory of Alan Henning who was murdered. What
:18:51. > :18:55.he has also made clear is responsibility for acts of terrorism
:18:56. > :19:02.and murder lies with the murder, and something that's really disappointed
:19:03. > :19:06.me is that the Prime Minister said the other day that in Jeremy
:19:07. > :19:20.Corbyn's speech on this on Monday, he said... Whether she agrees with
:19:21. > :19:24.him on his politics, she knows he didn't say that in his speech, but
:19:25. > :19:28.what troubles me is you have got a Prime Minister who must have sat
:19:29. > :19:31.down with her advisers earlier that day and said, well I do know he
:19:32. > :19:35.didn't say that but if we say he did we might win some votes. I think
:19:36. > :19:39.that is shameful and it shows Theresa May cannot be trusted. These
:19:40. > :19:41.issues should transcend party politics. We need to pull together
:19:42. > :19:45.on this issue. Thank you very much. Well, the Conservatives have
:19:46. > :19:48.promised a new statutory commission The party says it will identify
:19:49. > :19:51.extremism, including the "non-violent" kind,
:19:52. > :19:53.and help communities stand up to it. Also this morning,
:19:54. > :19:55.the Security Minister, Ben Wallace, has attacked internet giants
:19:56. > :19:57.for failing to tackle terror online, and accused them
:19:58. > :20:11.of being ruthless money-makers. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:20:12. > :20:14.Those comments you have made about social media companies failing in
:20:15. > :20:19.their responsibility to take down extremist material, what will you do
:20:20. > :20:23.to compel them? I think we will look at the range of options. The Germans
:20:24. > :20:29.have proposed a fine, we are not sure whether that will work, but
:20:30. > :20:34.there are range of pressures we can put onto some of these companies.
:20:35. > :20:38.Some have complied. In the article in the Sunday Telegraph today I did
:20:39. > :20:43.say it is not all of them. They are not immune to pressure. We can do
:20:44. > :20:46.internationally, and the Prime Minister urged at the G7 and
:20:47. > :20:53.international response. I think there are a range of issues. We
:20:54. > :20:58.could change the law. You mentioned the G7, and rhetoric and warm words
:20:59. > :21:02.are fine to an extent but it is action people want. If you have made
:21:03. > :21:08.these impassioned remarks in the newspapers about them failing to do
:21:09. > :21:11.the job, people want to know what powers do you have now to say to
:21:12. > :21:16.social media companies take down this material? We have an act that
:21:17. > :21:22.was recently passed. In this area we have just finished consulting on one
:21:23. > :21:29.of the areas we could use but we cannot pre-empt the consultation. We
:21:30. > :21:31.have right now officials from my department over in the United States
:21:32. > :21:37.with American officials working with CSPs because what we see is that
:21:38. > :21:43.they do respond to pressure. The best example is we think they have
:21:44. > :21:50.the technology and the capability to change the algorithms they use that
:21:51. > :21:53.maximise profit over safety. But you are relying on these companies
:21:54. > :21:57.devoting more resources to this line of work that you would like to see
:21:58. > :22:02.them do. Have you got any evidence they will do that? They said, only a
:22:03. > :22:07.few weeks ago before the election was called the Home Secretary hosted
:22:08. > :22:13.a Round Table with them. We have evidence they are trying to improve
:22:14. > :22:16.it. A few are refusing to or being difficult, and that's why the Prime
:22:17. > :22:20.Minister was right to step up not only the language she was using but
:22:21. > :22:24.to say we are not going to allow this to progress any more. People
:22:25. > :22:27.will be worried about who will make the judgment about what is
:22:28. > :22:33.unacceptable and what should be taken down. Let me show you this,
:22:34. > :22:38.which was shared widely across social media. If you read that quote
:22:39. > :22:43.you could argue it is at the same end if you like. The man in the
:22:44. > :22:48.picture is a terrorist hate preacher, the jihadist who was
:22:49. > :22:52.killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is this the sort of thing you would be
:22:53. > :22:57.demanding social media companies take down? You have to look at the
:22:58. > :23:03.context it was deployed in. I could show you some of the 270,000 pieces
:23:04. > :23:08.we have had removed since 2010 from internet sites that have been
:23:09. > :23:11.extreme. The big issue is not often the individual image, it is the way
:23:12. > :23:17.these companies set up the algorithms to link you. If you were
:23:18. > :23:21.watching that on Facebook delivered to you, perhaps you would like to
:23:22. > :23:29.look at this, because that's how they set it up. If you go onto
:23:30. > :23:38.YouTube, you can get let down the path from looking at Manchester... I
:23:39. > :23:40.understand your example, but from a practical level are you expecting
:23:41. > :23:48.media companies to take down that sort of posts if it appeared? Yes...
:23:49. > :23:52.You are? Who will make the decisions about what will radicalise young
:23:53. > :23:59.people that could lead someone down the path to let off a bomb? If I
:24:00. > :24:02.invite your viewers to look at the work the Guardian have done on
:24:03. > :24:08.Facebook guidance, to say for example it is OK to produce videos
:24:09. > :24:12.or broadcast videos of seven-year-olds being bullied as
:24:13. > :24:16.long as it wasn't accompanied by captions, I don't think you need to
:24:17. > :24:20.be an expert to say that is not acceptable. Something more worrying
:24:21. > :24:26.for you as a journalist and me as a politician, another set of guidance
:24:27. > :24:32.that says... I think this is quite menacing... That certain people
:24:33. > :24:35.don't deserve our protection. That includes journalists and politicians
:24:36. > :24:40.and people who are controversial. So I think there is more work to be
:24:41. > :24:45.done but at the end of the day it is the pathway this stuff leads to. It
:24:46. > :24:50.is more about examining how much progress you can make. The
:24:51. > :24:55.Government says there are up to 23,000 potential terrorist attackers
:24:56. > :25:05.in this country, 3000 of those posing a serious threat being
:25:06. > :25:11.monitored. That is pretty disturbing, these are big numbers.
:25:12. > :25:14.Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester shows this is not about failure, it
:25:15. > :25:17.is about the scale of the challenge we face and that is why it is
:25:18. > :25:25.important that alongside people is powers. Should you double the size
:25:26. > :25:29.of MI5 for example? We have increased year-on-year in real terms
:25:30. > :25:34.not only the money but the numbers of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we
:25:35. > :25:41.have committed to increased to... Before the attack. Before our
:25:42. > :25:44.manifesto we had recruited, we have increased the whole of government
:25:45. > :25:54.spending on counterterrorism from ?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7
:25:55. > :26:01.billion. Would you expand the number of people in MI5? I have asked them
:26:02. > :26:06.on a regular basis if they have the resource if they are happy with it,
:26:07. > :26:10.and the answer comes back time and time again, yes we are. You have
:26:11. > :26:16.quite extensive powers at your disposal, the question is if you are
:26:17. > :26:23.using them. Measures were introduced in 2012 to replace control orders,
:26:24. > :26:31.but they have rarely been used. Only seven are currently in operation.
:26:32. > :26:36.Why? Because there are a whole... It is just one tool in the tool box.
:26:37. > :26:44.Other powers we use, we take away people's passports if we think they
:26:45. > :26:48.are about to travel. How many? I cannot comment, it is a sensitive
:26:49. > :26:52.issue. Plenty of people are finding their passport has been removed and
:26:53. > :26:58.at the same time we strip people of citizenship to make sure they don't
:26:59. > :27:03.come back. On top of that, because of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5
:27:04. > :27:09.and counterterrorism, we have more powers and more ability to monitor
:27:10. > :27:17.them. But are you using them enough? Only seven TPIMs are in operation.
:27:18. > :27:21.You won't give me any of the other measures at your disposal, but if
:27:22. > :27:27.they are only in single figures, that doesn't seem to compare with
:27:28. > :27:32.the numbers who are being monitored. Also, we have to strike a balance
:27:33. > :27:35.between... We have to satisfy the court so we have to make sure there
:27:36. > :27:43.is enough evidence to restrict people's freedoms. TPIMs do all
:27:44. > :27:50.sorts of good things to keep people safe. It sends people away from
:27:51. > :27:54.where they live, it tags them... I tell you why they are better. The
:27:55. > :27:58.control orders were on track to be struck down by the courts because
:27:59. > :28:03.one of the things we have to satisfy is the courts but we also have to
:28:04. > :28:08.satisfy, we have to make sure we get the balance between the community is
:28:09. > :28:12.right and the measures we take. If we alienate our communities, we
:28:13. > :28:16.won't get the intelligence that allows us to catch it. There is no
:28:17. > :28:23.point in having more police and intelligence services if you don't
:28:24. > :28:34.give them the powers to do the job. Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James
:28:35. > :28:37.Bond to do precisely nothing. And -- thank you.
:28:38. > :28:44.The revelation that the Manchester suicide bomber, 22-year-old
:28:45. > :28:47.Salman Abedi, was born in this country has raised fresh concerns
:28:48. > :28:49.about the effectiveness of the UK's counter-extremism policy.
:28:50. > :28:52.In a moment we'll be talking to two people who've spent their careers
:28:53. > :28:53.investigating radicalisation in the UK.
:28:54. > :28:55.Douglas Murray, of the Henry Jackson Society,
:28:56. > :28:58.and Sara Khan, author of The Battle for British Islam and CEO
:28:59. > :28:59.of the counter-extremism organisation Inspire.
:29:00. > :29:02.We asked both for a personal take on how to confront the problem
:29:03. > :29:05.of Islamist extremism. First up, here's Douglas Murray.
:29:06. > :29:10.Even after all these dead, all this mourning and defiance,
:29:11. > :29:28.We remain stuck in the John Lennon response to terrorism -
:29:29. > :29:32.Our politicians still refuse to accurately identify
:29:33. > :29:34.the sources of the problem, and polite society
:29:35. > :29:40.This country gave asylum to the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi.
:29:41. > :29:45.Their son repaid that generosity by killing 22 British people,
:29:46. > :29:51.one for each year of life this country had given him.
:29:52. > :29:55.We need to think far more deeply about all this.
:29:56. > :29:59.Eastern Europe doesn't have an Islamic terrorism problem
:30:00. > :30:06.France has the worst problem because it has the most Islam.
:30:07. > :30:10.Are we ever going to draw any lessons from this?
:30:11. > :30:18.For the time being, the game is to be as inoffensive as possible.
:30:19. > :30:22.The rot isn't just within the Muslim communities.
:30:23. > :30:25.Consider all those retired British officials and others who shill,
:30:26. > :30:30.and are in the pay of the Saudis and other foreign states,
:30:31. > :30:35.even while they pump the extreme versions of Islam into our country.
:30:36. > :30:45.It is high time we became serious too.
:30:46. > :30:53.Islamist extremism is flourishing in our country.
:30:54. > :31:00.We're failing to defeat it, so what can we do about it?
:31:01. > :31:03.Whenever I say we must counter those Muslim organisations
:31:04. > :31:08.who are promoting hatred, discrimination, and sometimes even
:31:09. > :31:13.violence, I'm often either ignored by some politicians out
:31:14. > :31:15.of a misplaced fear of cultural sensitivity, or I find myself
:31:16. > :31:19.experiencing abuse by some of my fellow Muslims.
:31:20. > :31:27.These groups and their sympathisers tour Muslim communities,
:31:28. > :31:30.hold events, and have hundreds of thousands of followers
:31:31. > :31:35.Yet there is little counter challenge to their toxic
:31:36. > :31:40.anti-Western narrative, which includes opposition
:31:41. > :31:45.I've seen politicians and charities partner
:31:46. > :31:50.with and support some of these voices and groups.
:31:51. > :31:56.Many anti-racist groups will challenge those on the far
:31:57. > :31:59.right but not Muslim hate preachers, in the erroneous belief that to do
:32:00. > :32:07.But it's Islamophobic not to challenge them because it implies
:32:08. > :32:16.Following the attack on Monday, it cannot be business as usual.
:32:17. > :32:25.We must counter those who seek to divide us.
:32:26. > :32:32.Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray join me know. You wrote a book,
:32:33. > :32:37.strange death of Europe. What did you mean in your film when you said,
:32:38. > :32:42.let's get serious? Several things. Let me give you one example. The
:32:43. > :32:46.young man who carried out this atrocious attack was a student at
:32:47. > :32:52.Salford University for two years. He was on a campus which is, from its
:32:53. > :32:55.leadership to its student leadership, opposes all aspects of
:32:56. > :33:00.the government's only counter extremism programme. They boast they
:33:01. > :33:06.are boycotting it. They always did this. The university he was at was
:33:07. > :33:11.against the only counter extremism policy this state has. This is just
:33:12. > :33:18.one example of a much bigger problem. What are you suggesting?
:33:19. > :33:27.Shut down the University? Force them to change their policies? I think in
:33:28. > :33:34.the case of Salford, which discourages students from reporting
:33:35. > :33:38.Islamic extremism... When you discover you have produced a suicide
:33:39. > :33:42.bomber in Manchester, you should be held responsible. What do you say to
:33:43. > :33:49.that? I think it is quite clear from I am experienced there have been
:33:50. > :33:51.politicians who have undermined Prevent, community organisations,
:33:52. > :33:57.Islamist groups who have been at the forefront of undermining and
:33:58. > :34:03.countering Prevent, but also wider counter extremism measures. Islamist
:34:04. > :34:08.-- Islamist extremes and has flourished in this country. If
:34:09. > :34:12.Summer Rae had given us a crystal ball ten years ago and said, look
:34:13. > :34:16.forward and you will see hundreds of people leave this country to join
:34:17. > :34:18.Isis, we will have hundreds of people convicted of Islamist
:34:19. > :34:23.offences, I think we would have been quite shocked that things have got
:34:24. > :34:26.worse as opposed to getting better. Douglas Murray, the essence of your
:34:27. > :34:29.argument when you made the comparison between the numbers of
:34:30. > :34:34.Muslims in other countries is that we have too much Islam in Britain?
:34:35. > :34:39.The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood give is that the answer to
:34:40. > :34:44.absolutely everything is Islam. Less Islam is a good thing. Let me
:34:45. > :34:47.finish. The Islamic world is in the middle of a very serious problem. It
:34:48. > :34:52.has been going on since the beginning. I think it is not worth
:34:53. > :34:58.continuing to risk our own security simply in order to be politically
:34:59. > :35:01.correct. I would disagree with Douglas on that. Nobody is going to
:35:02. > :35:05.deny that since the end of the 20th century there has been a rise in
:35:06. > :35:10.Islamist extreme terror organisations. Yes, there is a
:35:11. > :35:14.crisis within contemporary Islam, but there is a class. There are
:35:15. > :35:17.competing claims about what the faith stands for. While we are
:35:18. > :35:22.seeing Islamist terror organisations, leading theologians
:35:23. > :35:27.are saying that the concept of a caliphate is outdated. Muslims
:35:28. > :35:33.should be adopting a human rights culture. I entirely agree with that.
:35:34. > :35:38.There are obviously people trying to counter that. I would urge us to
:35:39. > :35:42.take the long view. In the history of Islam there have been many
:35:43. > :35:47.reformers. Most of the time they have ended a up being the ones on
:35:48. > :35:51.the brunt of the violence. I deeply resent what you and others do in
:35:52. > :35:57.this country. I want you to win. But they are a Billy good minority. A
:35:58. > :35:59.poll last year found that two thirds of British Muslims found they would
:36:00. > :36:07.not report a family member they found to be involved in extremism to
:36:08. > :36:15.the police. You are proposing more Draconian measures. I wish they
:36:16. > :36:19.could win. We should do everything we can to support people like that.
:36:20. > :36:24.What we should recognise the scale of the problem is beyond our current
:36:25. > :36:28.understanding. You counter radicalisation on a university
:36:29. > :36:34.campus or online? Discussion we had with Ben Wallace about the material
:36:35. > :36:37.that is out there. If we pursue in a hard-line way perhaps the sort of
:36:38. > :36:45.thing Douglas Murray is suggesting, gone is freedom of speech, gone is
:36:46. > :36:49.freedom of debate and discussion? The best way to counter extremism is
:36:50. > :36:55.through the prism of human rights. We cannot abandon our human rights
:36:56. > :37:01.to fight extremism. Where I think we are going wrong, where there is a
:37:02. > :37:06.gap, is the lack of counter work to challenge Islamist ideals. How many
:37:07. > :37:12.people are going to say we need to counter that strict narrative? That
:37:13. > :37:18.is where we are not doing enough work. What about the human rights
:37:19. > :37:21.point, that you cannot take away people's human rights? I'm not
:37:22. > :37:28.suggesting that. I'm suggesting we do things that ensure that 22 people
:37:29. > :37:34.don't get blown up on an average Monday again, OK? Dissent to be
:37:35. > :37:40.opposed to people want to blow up our daughters is not opposing human
:37:41. > :37:43.rights. If you're taking government money and you are an institution
:37:44. > :37:46.like Salford University you should be held responsible for not
:37:47. > :37:51.cooperating with standard security measures. You can challenge
:37:52. > :37:58.extremism without abandoning human rights. We have got to actually
:37:59. > :38:02.counter the Islamist narrative. We're not doing enough. This is not
:38:03. > :38:06.about closing down free speech. This is encouraging it. This is the most
:38:07. > :38:14.effective way of countering the Islamist narrative. Why isn't it
:38:15. > :38:19.doing better? A number of reasons. One is there is a denial taking
:38:20. > :38:23.place. A lot of apologetics. Part of it is the way we talk about Muslims
:38:24. > :38:28.in this country. We use the term Muslim community as if they are
:38:29. > :38:31.homogenous. There is a positive trend but there is a negative trend
:38:32. > :38:35.among British Muslims. We need to counter those promoting the idea
:38:36. > :38:41.that Muslims are part of a collective identity. I agree. It is
:38:42. > :38:44.also the case there is massive push back because a lot of Muslims are
:38:45. > :38:49.defending the faith in this country. We think we can push them down a
:38:50. > :38:52.better path but they are defending absolutely everything. We need to
:38:53. > :38:53.get real about that. Thank you very much.
:38:54. > :38:55.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:56. > :38:58.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:38:59. > :39:08.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:39:09. > :39:10.I'm Julia George - welcome to the Sunday Politics
:39:11. > :39:14.This morning, in the latest of our general election specials,
:39:15. > :39:17.we look at an issue that unites young and old alike: housing.
:39:18. > :39:25.How do you get and keep the keys to your own home?
:39:26. > :39:28.It's a struggle for young people to get on the property ladder
:39:29. > :39:30.and many older people now have to sell up to fund
:39:31. > :39:33.So what can the politicians do about this?
:39:34. > :39:35.I'm joined by Damian Green for the Conservatives,
:39:36. > :39:37.Colin Stocks for the Greens and James Flanagan for
:39:38. > :39:47.Now, do you remember how you felt when you got
:39:48. > :39:51.For the current generation of first time buyers soaring house prices
:39:52. > :39:53.are pushing home ownership further and further out of reach.
:39:54. > :39:55.Helen Drew reports from Tunbridge Wells where the average
:39:56. > :39:58.house now costs twelve times the average salary.
:39:59. > :40:04.He's been in work as a plumber for the last eight
:40:05. > :40:07.years and yet it was only with a deposit from his parents that he
:40:08. > :40:09.recently bought a flat in Tunbridge Wells, close
:40:10. > :40:11.to where he grew up, under a shared ownership scheme.
:40:12. > :40:17.On my own, as a single person, financially to try
:40:18. > :40:19.and find a property in the south-east is difficult.
:40:20. > :40:23.I had help from my parents which is fantastic.
:40:24. > :40:26.The shared ownership scheme has opened a
:40:27. > :40:30.door which would not have been opened in my position.
:40:31. > :40:35.His flat is worth ?200,000 and the shared
:40:36. > :40:38.ownership scheme means he pays a mortgage on the part of the flat
:40:39. > :40:40.he owns and rent on the bit that
:40:41. > :40:43.He could own it over time but would have
:40:44. > :40:48.Across the country, the average house costs over seven times
:40:49. > :40:50.the average earnings which clearly makes it hard
:40:51. > :40:55.to get a mortgage and can mean a large deposit is necessary.
:40:56. > :40:58.But here in Tunbridge Wells, the average house costs 12
:40:59. > :41:07.And for those renting in the area it is hardly a cheap alternative.
:41:08. > :41:12.Now we have one expensive flat which is 1,600 per month.
:41:13. > :41:18.I live with my wife and my kids and we are having
:41:19. > :41:23.to move out of Tunbridge Wells because prices are a lot cheaper.
:41:24. > :41:26.We hope to move up Somerset way, got family there, you can get
:41:27. > :41:29.a four-bedroom there for the same price as a two-bed maisonette here.
:41:30. > :41:32.We're renting now and hopefully planning to buy but obviously it is
:41:33. > :41:36.very difficult to put together the deposit.
:41:37. > :41:38.Renting was not a long-term option for Olly.
:41:39. > :41:40.It was looking at my options, renting,
:41:41. > :41:43.it was so frightening, not just the
:41:44. > :41:46.rental cost but the extra charges with estate agents and people like
:41:47. > :41:52.that, it seems like an endless money pit for us young people I think it
:41:53. > :41:56.is damaging us, it is frightening us off.
:41:57. > :41:58.Something has to change, this cannot continue.
:41:59. > :42:00.But what changes and how it changes, that is
:42:01. > :42:06.We put his question to the candidates standing for
:42:07. > :42:11.First up, Labour, promising to build a million new
:42:12. > :42:18.Half of those will be council or housing association.
:42:19. > :42:22.I would like to see as much building as is required in the south-east.
:42:23. > :42:25.There is a strong demand for housing in south-east.
:42:26. > :42:29.Because of the cost of housing on the private market.
:42:30. > :42:33.It was so much easier when I was young,
:42:34. > :42:36.I got a 100% mortgage when I was 21 which seems a lifetime away which
:42:37. > :42:41.Finding the deposit and saving for it is next to impossible so by
:42:42. > :42:44.building new homes, available for young people and all people
:42:45. > :42:49.of low and medium income, it will help solve the problem.
:42:50. > :42:52.Next up the Conservatives who say they will build a million
:42:53. > :43:05.homes by the end of 2020 with a further 5000 homes by 2022.
:43:06. > :43:08.To have this particular emphasis on homes
:43:09. > :43:11.that are affordable to young people, both through rental and
:43:12. > :43:14.Having this mix, having homes for rent and for sale,
:43:15. > :43:17.having them for families as well as people getting their first home,
:43:18. > :43:26.that is a kind of mix we want and are determined to achieve.
:43:27. > :43:28.Ukip say they will provide up to 100,000 new
:43:29. > :43:32.The solution to social housing is to build modular housing,
:43:33. > :43:34.have those houses built locally and constructive locally.
:43:35. > :43:41.They will be for people on incomes of about 26000.
:43:42. > :43:43.Incidentally, the Tories think 70,000 you qualify for
:43:44. > :43:45.affordable homes which we think is outrageous.
:43:46. > :43:48.They would be for people under 40 so we need to give our
:43:49. > :43:50.young people a chance to get on the housing ladder.
:43:51. > :43:53.Finally, a 33-year-old Lib Dem struggling to
:43:54. > :43:57.buy a house herself and keen on her party's rent-to-own policy.
:43:58. > :43:59.Essentially you pay an amount of rent for 30 years and then
:44:00. > :44:03.you have bought your home which would be very
:44:04. > :44:05.helpful to people because it will mean you don't have
:44:06. > :44:09.The rental will in effect become a mortgage payment?
:44:10. > :44:11.Yes, exactly, just like a mortgage but no
:44:12. > :44:16.deposit required so more easily affordable.
:44:17. > :44:20.For younger voters, like Olly, housing issues could be key
:44:21. > :44:27.for which box to tick on the 8th of June.
:44:28. > :44:31.And these are the other candidates standing for election
:44:32. > :44:49.It is on your screen no. -- now. Let us discuss housing with our guests.
:44:50. > :44:56.On renting, you heard Ollie Burgess, the 35-year-old plumber talk about
:44:57. > :45:01.renting as frightening, what are you doing? Politicians want the vote of
:45:02. > :45:05.young people, record numbers have registered, what have the Liberal
:45:06. > :45:12.Democrats got to offer the generation frightened by the rental
:45:13. > :45:17.sector? He is correct, almost half of young people find that half of
:45:18. > :45:22.their income is going towards essentials, including renting a
:45:23. > :45:27.mortgage could use. In terms of rent, we want to bring in a rent to
:45:28. > :45:32.own scheme which means people pay rent and after 30 years they can all
:45:33. > :45:36.nap property which gets round the deposit but for other younger
:45:37. > :45:41.people, we want a scheme where the government helps provide a deposit
:45:42. > :45:52.for people who want to rent. That helps them put down a deposit on a
:45:53. > :45:55.property and they can go ahead and rent it. It will be difficult for
:45:56. > :45:58.the Liberal Democrats to get young people to believe in you again,
:45:59. > :46:00.student debt is no an average of ?44,000, largely thanks you caring
:46:01. > :46:05.in on tuition fees, how can you persuade them to vote for you in
:46:06. > :46:10.this election? For young people, especially students, if we introduce
:46:11. > :46:15.maintenance grants, we need to reintroduce them to help them
:46:16. > :46:20.weather living costs at university. Or 16 up to 21-year-olds we need to
:46:21. > :46:24.bring in two thirds discount on public travel passes. A lot of young
:46:25. > :46:28.people tell me travelling is very expensive nowadays so we want to
:46:29. > :46:34.help them out with everyday living costs. We will look at that later
:46:35. > :46:40.on. Next to the Greens, you are placed your manifesto not only to
:46:41. > :46:46.scrap tuition fees but to cancel all student debt. Your calculations put
:46:47. > :46:55.that at 14.4 billion but a BBC website whose this at 73.3 billion,
:46:56. > :46:59.do you need a reality check? No, I do not think so, the Greens have
:47:00. > :47:03.said all along we need to carefully assess our taxing system to make
:47:04. > :47:07.sure it is equitable. Some of his policies will be expensive but when
:47:08. > :47:14.you take the benefits in the round for making a more equitable system,
:47:15. > :47:17.I think they are all affordable. Do you think you're capturing the youth
:47:18. > :47:26.vote? You have a whole section in your manifesto for young people.
:47:27. > :47:32.What else do you have, on housing for existence for young people? Will
:47:33. > :47:38.you build houses? You clearly looked at our manifesto. That is my job. We
:47:39. > :47:43.have indeed pledged to build more houses and we appreciate it will
:47:44. > :47:47.take time -- time but by 2022 we will build 100,000 new homes. We
:47:48. > :47:51.have progressive policies to make sure that property which is not
:47:52. > :47:55.being used properly is brought back into use because at the moment that
:47:56. > :48:05.is a scandal of more than 600,000 homes which are vacant. 200,000 of
:48:06. > :48:08.which are on occupied for six months or more. It is the fact we have too
:48:09. > :48:11.many speculators sitting on properties we cannot use. Let us go
:48:12. > :48:15.to the Conservatives, it is said the young people have nothing to gain
:48:16. > :48:19.from voting Tory. You have little in your manifesto to improve their
:48:20. > :48:23.lives. Given the number of young people registering to vote, you have
:48:24. > :48:27.talked about young people registering before, are you wishing
:48:28. > :48:33.there is more in your manifesto for the John people? That is a huge
:48:34. > :48:38.amount in our manifesto, starting in schools where we will spend more...
:48:39. > :48:43.To take away free school meals? It is not taking away free school meals
:48:44. > :48:51.from anyone who needs it or free Brexit. Everyone will get a free
:48:52. > :48:59.Brexit -- breakfast. It will cost 180 million. They have assumed a
:49:00. > :49:04.100% take-up. It is credited on a 20% take-up. It is our projection
:49:05. > :49:09.which is predicated on a 25% take-up. The point of the change of
:49:10. > :49:15.this policy is it will release money for schools to employ more teachers
:49:16. > :49:19.which is what parents and indeed young people expect so they can get
:49:20. > :49:25.1.8 million more young people in good or outstanding schools than we
:49:26. > :49:31.had in 2010. To turn to the housing issue in your film, we have shown
:49:32. > :49:34.what we can do. We produced a white Paper a few months ago that Will
:49:35. > :49:41.extends their Help to Buy scheme which is very useful for some of the
:49:42. > :49:48.people we saw in your film. We have built 189,000 over the new -- last
:49:49. > :49:52.year. You are nearly 10,000 short of your own commitments and yet you say
:49:53. > :49:57.you will need a 1 million target yet you do not meet your target for the
:49:58. > :50:02.first year. We are doing much better know than any government is doing
:50:03. > :50:08.since the recession. -- much better now. Look at the numbers. Roughly
:50:09. > :50:13.speaking we need about 200,000 extra homes, that was the week to solve
:50:14. > :50:17.that problem and we are getting there, no previous government did
:50:18. > :50:21.that. If we are going to be fair, we need to move on. We will pick up
:50:22. > :50:27.housing again because whoever gets the keys to number ten in two weeks,
:50:28. > :50:28.--... you'll want to know what they plan
:50:29. > :50:32.to do to help you keep yours. What does the future hold
:50:33. > :50:35.for you if you've got your own home but you're forced to sell up to pay
:50:36. > :50:38.for old age care? Briohny Williams is in Eastbourne,
:50:39. > :50:40.where there might be a grey I am at the market here
:50:41. > :50:44.in Eastbourne on the seafront where people are picking up some
:50:45. > :50:46.last-minute items But budgeting for the week ahead
:50:47. > :50:50.is just a small issue. Here in East Sussex,
:50:51. > :50:52.one in eight people are aged 75 or over so budgeting for care later
:50:53. > :50:55.in life is a huge concern. The Conservatives hold this seat
:50:56. > :50:58.by a small majority, less than 2% so knowing who pays
:50:59. > :51:03.for social care and how it will be funded is a key issue for voters
:51:04. > :51:06.here and across the south-east. The Conservatives
:51:07. > :51:08.say they will put a cap on social care funding and also
:51:09. > :51:11.make people pay for their own care The other parties, well
:51:12. > :51:20.broadly, they are in favour of bringing a cap
:51:21. > :51:22.on individual social costs. They also want to boost
:51:23. > :51:24.funding and put more into the pot by lots of different
:51:25. > :51:29.measures which could include raising income tax, putting taxes
:51:30. > :51:32.on the wealthy and also taking some I am with two people
:51:33. > :51:36.here who have first hand experience of the
:51:37. > :51:43.social care system. Anne Reid 71, who was a prime care
:51:44. > :51:46.for her mother and husband and 73-year-old Rosemary Freeman who was
:51:47. > :51:52.the prime carer for her husband. Anne, with your mother,
:51:53. > :51:54.how much did her 174,000 came from the sale
:51:55. > :52:08.of her home and the rest came from I did object to the disparity
:52:09. > :52:18.that the ?250 a week the social services pay for the same
:52:19. > :52:21.amount of care in homes Rosemary, you cared for your
:52:22. > :52:25.husband in your own home. At the moment, if you care
:52:26. > :52:29.for someone in your own home, the sale of your
:52:30. > :52:42.house is not included. To see who gets money from the state
:52:43. > :52:45.but later that could change. Would you be happy for your house
:52:46. > :52:48.to be sold for your care? No, I wouldn't
:52:49. > :52:50.because my husband, in his will, has left it to his
:52:51. > :52:52.children and his grandchildren. Carers at home who look after them,
:52:53. > :52:57.like I did from 1976 were saving I would be getting 77p per week
:52:58. > :53:08.because I am over 65. There is some suggestion
:53:09. > :53:11.that the winter fuel allowance, that payment could be redirected,
:53:12. > :53:15.would you be in favour of that? No, I would not because that
:53:16. > :53:17.is very much needed by me now but also by the person you
:53:18. > :53:26.are looking after because they feel What about taking it
:53:27. > :53:29.off the most wealthy? Take it off the people
:53:30. > :53:32.who are abroad and take off the very wealthy people which there
:53:33. > :53:35.are many in this country. I do not think that fuel allowance
:53:36. > :53:39.should be taken away. I lost five years of income
:53:40. > :53:41.looking after my husband. So, Anne and Rosemary,
:53:42. > :53:50.who pays for social care is a key Yes, and I have
:53:51. > :53:56.already voted by post. If you are not voting
:53:57. > :53:59.by post like Rosemary, you still have one and
:54:00. > :54:12.a half weeks to decide. Rosemary and and talking to our
:54:13. > :54:18.reporter in East Sussex. One of them has already voted. It is about who
:54:19. > :54:23.pays, whether we pay for our own old-age care or contribute to
:54:24. > :54:29.everyone. You want to put 1p on income tax, you want everyone.
:54:30. > :54:33.Haven't young people contributed enough already? These old people are
:54:34. > :54:38.happy to sell their houses, why shouldn't they be a bit more towards
:54:39. > :54:43.their own care? We should pay more through income tax. We want to put
:54:44. > :54:46.1p on income tax to raise funds for social care. We're seeing one of the
:54:47. > :54:54.biggest crises in social care for years. There is a ?2 billion black
:54:55. > :54:57.hole in social care this year alone. We are seeing as much as 1 million
:54:58. > :55:01.elderly people not getting the care they need. Many thousands of
:55:02. > :55:07.disabled people not getting the care. So you think everyone should
:55:08. > :55:17.pay for it? Our view is to put 1p on billion -- 1p on income tax to raise
:55:18. > :55:22.funds. Why is that fair? Plenty of people have reacted with anger about
:55:23. > :55:26.the U-turn on social care last week but there are plenty of people who
:55:27. > :55:31.are saying, like Anne, it is all right to pay for our own care. We
:55:32. > :55:36.have sat on his houses and generated a lot of money, why do we expect
:55:37. > :55:40.young people to fund our old-age care? We heard were handset but
:55:41. > :55:43.there are still many people like they are concerned about what the
:55:44. > :55:48.Conservatives are planning which is an absolute disgrace in that people
:55:49. > :55:53.potentially may have to sell their own homes. We have been very honest
:55:54. > :55:56.and we are putting the penny on income tax. One of the things we
:55:57. > :56:02.brought in during the coalition was the rise in income tax threshold,
:56:03. > :56:05.taking many people out of income tax altogether. Let us go to
:56:06. > :56:09.Conservatives. You must have a sense Conservatives. You must have a sense
:56:10. > :56:13.of how much you have annoyed your call vote last weekend when you sat
:56:14. > :56:18.and another BBC studio and said we will not look at this again. Social
:56:19. > :56:24.care and allowing people to value their homes to be taken into account
:56:25. > :56:27.in their care and then the very next day a spectacular U-turn, all of a
:56:28. > :56:39.sudden strong and stable does not cut it any more. We are proposing a
:56:40. > :56:42.just address that smear, people will just address that smear, people will
:56:43. > :56:44.not be forced to sell their homes. Their homes will be protected while
:56:45. > :56:48.the person being cared for is in it. You heard what they care about, it
:56:49. > :56:53.is about being able to leave a legacy. That is why we have said
:56:54. > :56:59.first of all there will be ?100,000 left for everyone and now on top of
:57:00. > :57:04.that, there will be a cap. But that is a U-turn after you said you would
:57:05. > :57:08.not look at it again, all of a sudden a cap pops up the next day.
:57:09. > :57:12.We're not looking at principles again, we are revealing the
:57:13. > :57:21.consultation which includes the cap so that everyone can be assured
:57:22. > :57:24.something... Why did you not know something... Why did you not know
:57:25. > :57:26.about that cap last ten? That is the consultation which will be coming
:57:27. > :57:30.after the election. It clearly was not in the manifesto? The
:57:31. > :57:35.consultation is in the manifesto. Why did you not know as the pensions
:57:36. > :57:40.minister? You have to pay for it somehow. The Labour party is going
:57:41. > :57:44.to put 4 million people into inheritance tax, that is how they
:57:45. > :57:48.propose to pay for it which is a huge number of elderly people...
:57:49. > :57:54.They are talking about cross-party consensus. They will not get that by
:57:55. > :57:58.increasing the inheritance tax threshold. I must bring in the
:57:59. > :58:03.greens. The fact is we have to ingest the inequities in taxation
:58:04. > :58:10.system. There will be some unpopular choices but we cannot have civilised
:58:11. > :58:14.social care without properly integrating the things properly. Who
:58:15. > :58:19.will pay for it under the Greens, who will pay for social care?
:58:20. > :58:23.Everyone will peak equitably as I am sure you will know from our
:58:24. > :58:30.manifesto. That is a wholesale reform of the way the UK runs its
:58:31. > :58:34.taxes. There will be experiments with land value tax. We will be
:58:35. > :58:37.changing inheritance tax. Without listing all the possible tax
:58:38. > :58:41.changes, let us talk about what people care about on the street, we
:58:42. > :58:45.heard about the winter fuel allowance. Liberal Democrats would
:58:46. > :58:52.means test this allowance? Who would not get it? The poorest pensioners
:58:53. > :58:59.were still get the tax. We do you draw the line? We draw the line at
:59:00. > :59:03.the 40% income tax bracket. How much will that make you? Those who need
:59:04. > :59:07.it the most will still get the winter fuel allowance. Our total
:59:08. > :59:11.E.ON is to ensure that those who need it most still get it. I need to
:59:12. > :59:16.come back and something Damian said in terms of social care. You talked
:59:17. > :59:21.about a smear, what about carers at home who have elderly relatives at
:59:22. > :59:25.home that they are killing for in their house, could they not still
:59:26. > :59:30.lose their house if that person died? The point of our system is to
:59:31. > :59:34.address the underlying point which was well put out by the ladies in
:59:35. > :59:38.the discussion by the way people feel the inequities about the
:59:39. > :59:41.system. The social care system is not working, we put more money in
:59:42. > :59:46.and we need to put yet more money in which is why we are talking about
:59:47. > :59:50.changes... I think you're dodging the point of how much impact this
:59:51. > :59:54.has had on your call vote. You talk to in the past about knowing how
:59:55. > :00:00.important it is to know your core voters. I was presenting a radio
:00:01. > :00:04.show the next morning and I was staggered by people telephoning into
:00:05. > :00:09.Sadie would rather kill themselves rather than not allow their legacy
:00:10. > :00:15.to go to those people. That is how much you have upset your voters. I
:00:16. > :00:20.understand that any party making a significant proposal that people
:00:21. > :00:25.should be able to leave things to their children, we understand that,
:00:26. > :00:32.that is part of our proposal and that has been a lot of discussion.
:00:33. > :00:37.How high is your threshold? That is part of the consultation. People
:00:38. > :00:42.therefore do not know? The point is about inheritance, our proposal is
:00:43. > :00:48.that whatever happens, however expensively care is, people will be
:00:49. > :00:53.eager to pass on ?100,000. This winter fuel allowance is a red
:00:54. > :00:58.herring because it is a relative amount of small money. It does not
:00:59. > :01:02.address inequities. It is a disgrace anyone should be worried about the
:01:03. > :01:08.expense of heating their home, young or old so we need to make sure
:01:09. > :01:12.energy is affordable. You are not going to change any other pension
:01:13. > :01:18.benefits? There are no plans to means test. We will be introducing,
:01:19. > :01:25.as in the manifesto, a citizens pension. We have proposals on
:01:26. > :01:33.inheritance tax. A final thought on whether you think, Damian Green, do
:01:34. > :01:37.you think you have seen, I am so sorry and I was about to formulate
:01:38. > :01:42.another question but time has got the best of us.
:01:43. > :01:45.This programme is part of a series of shows
:01:46. > :01:48.leading up to polling day - we will be hearing from all
:01:49. > :01:50.the major parties standing candidates in the south east
:01:51. > :01:53.on a range of issues during the General Election campaign.
:01:54. > :01:56.That's all we've got time for from the South East this week.
:01:57. > :02:03.Natalie Graham will be here next week with the last of our election
:02:04. > :02:05.re-elected. Is the only choice for strong and stable leadership.
:02:06. > :02:20.Now, after the Manchester attack, will the final week of election
:02:21. > :02:27.campaigning different in tone from what came before? My panel are here.
:02:28. > :02:31.Tim Marshall, it will be very front of Centre for the next few days. Is
:02:32. > :02:37.that a good thing for the election if it is going to be framed to who
:02:38. > :02:41.do you feel more safe with? It is inevitable but I think it will only
:02:42. > :02:46.be part of the election. As I said before the opt out, for many voters
:02:47. > :02:52.this is also about economics, unemployment. It is not all about
:02:53. > :02:58.Brexit, nor is it only about security. What it will do, I hope,
:02:59. > :03:02.is get the tone of the debate right. Although I have already seen the
:03:03. > :03:07.tone being lowered. I wasn't impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech
:03:08. > :03:11.last week blaming it on a foreign policy, which is a wafer thin
:03:12. > :03:16.analysis of what is going on. Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I
:03:17. > :03:25.think the argument is utter nonsense. I don't want to attack
:03:26. > :03:28.just one side. The Conservative party, I've forgotten which minister
:03:29. > :03:34.has already said that we would be safer under a Tory Prime Minister,
:03:35. > :03:42.it has got nothing to do with Labour or Tory government, the next Islamic
:03:43. > :03:48.attack. It is to do with jihadist ideology, not party policies. You
:03:49. > :03:53.raise an important issue about tone. It also points to a broader
:03:54. > :03:56.argument, one we were having earlier, has politics been two
:03:57. > :04:02.courses with this issue of extremism? Has the conversation
:04:03. > :04:07.about it tiptoed around some of the sensitive issues? And by the media.
:04:08. > :04:15.You highlight the problem of this being part of the election campaign
:04:16. > :04:19.by saying, has politics been too cautious? Who do you mean by
:04:20. > :04:23.politics? And in an election campaign there is a duty to be a
:04:24. > :04:31.divide, and adamant about values, policies etc. Security is an issue
:04:32. > :04:35.that transcends those political divides. So I think it is deeply
:04:36. > :04:42.unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a tragedy occurred. But if you ask me
:04:43. > :04:49.does it help or enhance an election debate? Emphatically not. A tragic
:04:50. > :04:55.event brings politics, as you call it, together. Security is an issue
:04:56. > :05:02.that is complex and doesn't divide neatly. Elections are political
:05:03. > :05:07.battles, by definition. So I think the coming together of this, a
:05:08. > :05:14.tragedy occurred anyway, but it is an unfortunate context. Do you agree
:05:15. > :05:19.or do you think this is a time to talk about these issues? Is it a
:05:20. > :05:24.time to review the level of argument? This is a political
:05:25. > :05:27.debate. I personally think the politicians should have been out and
:05:28. > :05:34.about on Wednesday. There is no wrong time to get it right. We
:05:35. > :05:41.mustn't let the terrorists affect our way of life. But they have when
:05:42. > :05:44.we disrupt the election campaign. It may be party political. But for a
:05:45. > :05:50.lot of voters, including me, I want to hear from party leaders. What do
:05:51. > :05:55.you plan to do about this? Right now, I've not heard anything that
:05:56. > :05:59.suggests any of these parties have got to grips with the real problem,
:06:00. > :06:03.which is that we are not actually tackling the problem in our midst.
:06:04. > :06:07.Douglas Murray touched on it earlier. We have not even come to
:06:08. > :06:16.grips with the scale of the problem. Does Labour have a grip -- Power
:06:17. > :06:21.Point in terms of terrorist legislation? It is complicated. And
:06:22. > :06:26.not all of it has worked or is used enough by government? It is another
:06:27. > :06:31.example where this doesn't work in an election debate because David
:06:32. > :06:35.Davis has opposed a lot of this terrorism legislation. He is now
:06:36. > :06:42.heading Brexit. There is a civil liberties argument which I
:06:43. > :06:47.personally have doubts about. Again, it brings people together from the
:06:48. > :06:51.major parties. And Corbyn didn't actually say it was the cause of
:06:52. > :06:55.terrorism, British foreign policy, but it helped to facilitate
:06:56. > :06:59.terrorism, which is a different argument. Again, that would be
:07:00. > :07:03.supported by some Tories as well. That is why it is difficult in an
:07:04. > :07:08.election campaign for this issue to dominate. The front page of the
:07:09. > :07:11.Sunday Times talks about a campaign relaunch, which may not, grow as a
:07:12. > :07:18.great surprise following the social care fiasco. Do we know what that
:07:19. > :07:23.will entail? It sounds like Boris Johnson will play a role. The whole
:07:24. > :07:27.point is it was all about Theresa May and it turns out that is not
:07:28. > :07:31.quite good enough. The more we have seen of Theresa May, the less
:07:32. > :07:35.impressive she has looked. Certainly the Andrew Neil interview just
:07:36. > :07:40.repeating the same thing again and again. Voters don't like that. They
:07:41. > :07:44.like people who are honest and actually engage with them. When we
:07:45. > :07:48.see beat interviews in the next few days, I think it will be interesting
:07:49. > :07:52.to see if she changes tack and tries to engage with what people are
:07:53. > :07:59.asking. If it is back to leadership and Brexit, and the economy, will
:08:00. > :08:09.that be more comfortable ground? I think so. I understand framing it in
:08:10. > :08:13.terms of Brexit. But she has got to broaden it out. I think that is why
:08:14. > :08:21.she is broadening it out. I don't think the tragic events will
:08:22. > :08:25.absolutely dominate. That would be a small victory for terrorism. This is
:08:26. > :08:30.a country of 65 million people with an awful lot of issues. We have 65
:08:31. > :08:37.million votes, well, 65 million people with opinions in two weeks.
:08:38. > :08:41.It is quite a long campaign. There is still time to go. What do you
:08:42. > :08:47.think Labour will be focusing on from now on? I would imagine they
:08:48. > :08:52.will look very closely at where they are well ahead in the opinion polls
:08:53. > :08:57.and focus on that relentlessly. Public services, NHS etc. And try to
:08:58. > :09:03.get it off as soon as possible from security and fees is used which, on
:09:04. > :09:07.one level at least, appear to be a gift to the Conservatives. I assume
:09:08. > :09:11.that is what they are going to do. But this is a very unpredictable
:09:12. > :09:15.campaign where nothing has gone according to plan. Let's look ahead.
:09:16. > :09:22.On Wednesday evening we have got an election debate. It is in Cambridge.
:09:23. > :09:27.Leaders of some of the parties. Amber Rudd will be representing the
:09:28. > :09:31.Conservatives. We don't know yet who will represent Labour. Today we have
:09:32. > :09:36.had Amber Road and Diane Abbott against each other on Andrew Marr.
:09:37. > :09:41.Let's have a look. I think there is something to be said for a Home
:09:42. > :09:44.Secretary who has actually worked in the Home Office. I work in the home
:09:45. > :09:49.office for nearly three years as a graduate trainee. This government
:09:50. > :09:54.has always felt that urgency. That is why we have been putting in
:09:55. > :09:57.additional money. It is significant that the commission for extremism in
:09:58. > :10:02.the manifesto was put in before Manchester. We need to do more. You
:10:03. > :10:07.voted against prescribing those groups. Because there were groups on
:10:08. > :10:12.that list I deemed to be dissidents rather than terrorist organisations.
:10:13. > :10:14.We are making good progress with the companies who put in place
:10:15. > :10:22.encryption. We will continue to build on that. It was 34 years ago.
:10:23. > :10:26.I had a rather splendid Afro at the time. I don't have the same
:10:27. > :10:31.hairstyle. And I don't have the same views. It is 34 years on. The
:10:32. > :10:37.hairstyle has gone. Some of the views have gone. So you no longer,
:10:38. > :10:44.you regret what you said about the IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the
:10:45. > :10:47.views have gone. I would say to Diane Abbott that I have changed my
:10:48. > :10:54.hairstyle are few times in 34 years but I have not changed my view of
:10:55. > :10:57.how we keep the British public safe. Let's get away from hairstyle sides
:10:58. > :11:02.talk about the prospect of the two of them taking part in the election
:11:03. > :11:08.debate. Would you like to see that? On one level I would like to see it
:11:09. > :11:12.and another the level I would like to see an intelligent debate. I'm
:11:13. > :11:17.glad I never had an Afro or supported the IRA. Whenever Diane
:11:18. > :11:23.Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a radio studio, Labour haemorrhage
:11:24. > :11:29.votes. She cannot say things like my regret supporting this or that
:11:30. > :11:34.legislation. She is an absolute disaster. If Labour put her up, they
:11:35. > :11:46.are beyond mad. Who do you think Labour should put up? By the way, I
:11:47. > :11:50.did have an Afro! I based my whole log on Kevin Keegan and it was good.
:11:51. > :12:03.That is the wrong question. I will explain why. The Labour campaign, it
:12:04. > :12:08.seems to me there were only five or six people put up. That is the fault
:12:09. > :12:12.of others who refused to take part. It also shows the degree to which
:12:13. > :12:15.the current leadership can only rely on five or six people. I would
:12:16. > :12:20.imagine we are talking about a pool of five or six people. As for my
:12:21. > :12:24.judgment as to who the best public performer is in that pool, it would
:12:25. > :12:31.be by some margin John McDonnell, who is a very good interviewee and
:12:32. > :12:38.performer. I think he is a very good performer. It would come back to the
:12:39. > :12:46.economy at some point, presumably. But then it comes back to the IRA. I
:12:47. > :12:49.don't think the debate will be very illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd
:12:50. > :12:54.is there, Diane Abbott should be there. I think the leaders should be
:12:55. > :12:58.debating. Some people say it is froth. I think the leader -- the
:12:59. > :13:02.electorate gets a sense of the leaders. On haircuts, I would like
:13:03. > :13:06.to thank both of them are talking about the haircuts. I am looking
:13:07. > :13:12.forward to tomorrow's papers and the theme that will run through the
:13:13. > :13:19.week. Let's not finish on the hair. Thank you very much for being our
:13:20. > :13:24.guests. That is it for today. Thank the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil
:13:25. > :13:30.will be back next weekend. And I will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday.
:13:31. > :13:36.That is at midday with more daily politics. In the meantime, have a
:13:37. > :13:42.very lovely bank holiday. From all of us here, bye-bye.