0:00:37 > 0:00:39Morning, everyone.
0:00:39 > 0:00:41I'm Sarah Smith, and welcome to The Sunday Politics,
0:00:41 > 0:00:44where we always bring you everything you need to know to understand
0:00:44 > 0:00:45what's going on in politics.
0:00:45 > 0:00:49Coming up on today's programme...
0:00:49 > 0:00:51The Government says
0:00:51 > 0:00:53the international trade minister Mark Garnier will be investigated
0:00:53 > 0:00:56following newspaper allegations of inappropriate behaviour
0:00:56 > 0:00:58towards a female staff member.
0:00:58 > 0:01:04We'll have the latest.
0:01:04 > 0:01:07The Prime Minister says she can agree a deal with the EU and plenty
0:01:07 > 0:01:13of time for Parliament to vote on it before we leave in 2018. Well
0:01:13 > 0:01:21Parliament play ball? New evidence cast out on the economic
0:01:21 > 0:01:23And in the South East: could a hard Brexit bring our ferries,
0:01:23 > 0:01:28planes and Eurotunnel services to a grinding halt?
0:01:29 > 0:01:31on from the abortion act white MPs are lobbying the Home Secretary to
0:01:31 > 0:01:38stop the alleged harassment of women attending abortion clinics.
0:01:38 > 0:01:40All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43And with me today to help make sense of all the big stories,
0:01:43 > 0:01:47Julia Hartley-Brewer, Steve Richards and Anne McElvoy.
0:01:47 > 0:01:49Some breaking news this morning.
0:01:49 > 0:01:51The Government has announced that it will investigate
0:01:51 > 0:01:53whether the International Trade Minister Mark Garnier broke
0:01:53 > 0:01:55the Ministerial Code following allegations
0:01:55 > 0:02:00of inappropriate behaviour.
0:02:00 > 0:02:04It comes after reports in the Mail on Sunday which has spoken to one
0:02:04 > 0:02:05of Mr Garnier's former employees.
0:02:05 > 0:02:07News of the investigation was announced by the Health
0:02:07 > 0:02:09Secretary Jeremy Hunt on the Andrew Marr show earlier.
0:02:09 > 0:02:13The stories, if they are true, are totally unacceptable
0:02:13 > 0:02:15and the Cabinet Office will be conducting an investigation
0:02:15 > 0:02:18as to whether there has been a breach of the ministerial code
0:02:18 > 0:02:19in this particular case.
0:02:19 > 0:02:21But as you know the facts are disputed.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24This is something that covers behaviour by MPs of all parties
0:02:24 > 0:02:27and that is why the other thing that is going to happen
0:02:27 > 0:02:30is that today Theresa May is going to write to John Bercow,
0:02:30 > 0:02:34the Speaker of the House of Commons, to ask for his advice as to how
0:02:34 > 0:02:40we change that culture.
0:02:40 > 0:02:43That was Jeremy Hunt a little earlier. I want to turn to the panel
0:02:43 > 0:02:48to make sense of this news. This is the government taking these
0:02:48 > 0:02:52allegations quite seriously.What has changed in this story is they
0:02:52 > 0:02:57used to be a bit of delay while people work out what they should say
0:02:57 > 0:03:02about it, how seriously to take it. As you see now a senior cabinet
0:03:02 > 0:03:06member out there, Jeremy Hunt, with an instant response. He does have
0:03:06 > 0:03:10the worry of whether the facts are disputed, but what they want to be
0:03:10 > 0:03:15seen doing is to do something very quickly. In the past they would say
0:03:15 > 0:03:20it was all part of the rough and tumble of Westminster.Mark Garnier
0:03:20 > 0:03:24does not deny these stories, which is that he asked an employee to buy
0:03:24 > 0:03:28sex toys, but he said it was just high jinks and it was taken out of
0:03:28 > 0:03:32context. Is this the sort of thing that a few years ago in a different
0:03:32 > 0:03:38environment would be investigated? Not necessarily quite the frenzy
0:03:38 > 0:03:46that it is nowadays. The combination of social media, all the Sunday
0:03:46 > 0:03:48political programmes were ministers have to go on armed with a response
0:03:48 > 0:03:56means that you get these we have to be seen to be doing something. That
0:03:56 > 0:04:00means there is this Cabinet Office investigation. You pointed out to us
0:04:00 > 0:04:04before the programme that he was not a minister before this happened. It
0:04:04 > 0:04:08does not matter whether he says yes, know I did this or did not,
0:04:08 > 0:04:13something has to be seen to be done. Clearly ministers today are being
0:04:13 > 0:04:17armed with that bit of information and that Theresa May will ask John
0:04:17 > 0:04:21Bercow the speaker to look into the whole culture of Parliament in this
0:04:21 > 0:04:27context. That is the response to this kind of frenzy.If we do live
0:04:27 > 0:04:30in an environment where something has to be seen to be done, does that
0:04:30 > 0:04:36always mean the right thing gets done?Absolutely not. We are in
0:04:36 > 0:04:40witch hunt territory. All of us work in the Commons over many years and
0:04:40 > 0:04:45anyone would think it was a scene out of Benny Hill or a carry on
0:04:45 > 0:04:50film. Sadly it is not that much fun and it is rather dull and dreary.
0:04:50 > 0:04:55Yes, there are sex pests, yes, there is sexual harassment, but the idea
0:04:55 > 0:04:59this is going on on a huge scale is nonsense.Doesn't matter whether it
0:04:59 > 0:05:06is a huge scale or not? Or just a few instances?Any workplace where
0:05:06 > 0:05:11you have the mixing of work and social so intertwined and you throw
0:05:11 > 0:05:14a huge amount of alcohol and late night and people living away from
0:05:14 > 0:05:21home you will have this happen.That does not make it OK.It makes sexual
0:05:21 > 0:05:25harassment not OK as it is not anywhere. This happens to men as
0:05:25 > 0:05:30well and if they have an issue into it there are employment tribunal 's
0:05:30 > 0:05:34and they can contact lawyers. I do not think this should be a matter of
0:05:34 > 0:05:40the speaker, it should be someone completely independent of any party.
0:05:40 > 0:05:45People think MPs are employees of the party or the Commons, they are
0:05:45 > 0:05:48not.Because they are self-employed to whom do you go if you are a
0:05:48 > 0:05:54researcher?That has to be clarified. I agree you need a much
0:05:54 > 0:06:00clearer line of reporting. It was a bit like the situation when we came
0:06:00 > 0:06:05into the media many years ago, the Punic wars in my case! You were not
0:06:05 > 0:06:13quite sure who to go to. If you work worried that it might impede your
0:06:13 > 0:06:18career, and you had to talk to people who work next to you, that is
0:06:18 > 0:06:22just one example, but in the Commons people do not know who they should
0:06:22 > 0:06:26go to. Where Theresa May might be making a mistake, it is the same
0:06:26 > 0:06:30mistake when it was decided to investigate through Levinson the
0:06:30 > 0:06:36culture of the media which was like nailing jelly to a wall. Look at the
0:06:36 > 0:06:39culture of anybody's job and the environment they are in and there is
0:06:39 > 0:06:44usually a lot wrong with it. When you try and make it general, they
0:06:44 > 0:06:50are not trying to blame individuals, or it say they need a better line on
0:06:50 > 0:06:54reporting of sexual harassment, which I support, the Commons is a
0:06:54 > 0:06:58funny place and it is a rough old trade and you are never going to
0:06:58 > 0:07:02iron out the human foibles of that. Diane Abbott was talking about this
0:07:02 > 0:07:06earlier.
0:07:06 > 0:07:10When I first went into Parliament so many of those men had been to all
0:07:10 > 0:07:17boys boarding schools and had really difficult attitudes towards women.
0:07:17 > 0:07:21The world has moved on and middle-aged women are less likely
0:07:21 > 0:07:30than middle-aged men to believe that young research are irresistibly
0:07:30 > 0:07:36attracted to them. We have seen the issues and we have seen one of our
0:07:36 > 0:07:42colleagues been suspended for quite unacceptable language.
0:07:42 > 0:07:46That is a point, Jarrod O'Mara, a Labour MP who has had the whip
0:07:46 > 0:07:51suspended, this goes across all parties.The idea that there is a
0:07:51 > 0:07:56left or right divide over this is absurd. This is a cultural issue. In
0:07:56 > 0:08:01the media and in a lot of other institutions if this is going to
0:08:01 > 0:08:05develop politically, the frenzy will carry on for a bit and other names
0:08:05 > 0:08:09will come out over the next few days, not just the two we have
0:08:09 > 0:08:16mentioned so far in politics. But it also raises questions about how
0:08:16 > 0:08:21candidates are selected for example. There has been a huge pressure for
0:08:21 > 0:08:26the centre to keep out of things. I bet from now on there will be much
0:08:26 > 0:08:30greater scrutiny of all candidates and tweets will have to be looked at
0:08:30 > 0:08:37and all the rest of it.Selecting candidates is interesting. Miriam
0:08:37 > 0:08:41Gonzalez, Nick Clegg's wife, says that during that election they knew
0:08:41 > 0:08:46about Jarrod O'Mara and the Lib Dems knew about it, so it is difficult to
0:08:46 > 0:08:52suggest the Labour Party did not as well.There is very clear evidence
0:08:52 > 0:08:56the Labour Party did know. But we are in a situation of how perfect
0:08:56 > 0:09:03and well-behaved does everyone have to be? If you look at past American
0:09:03 > 0:09:07presidents, JFK and Bill Clinton, these men were sex pest
0:09:07 > 0:09:10extraordinaire, with totally inappropriate behaviour on a regular
0:09:10 > 0:09:15basis. There are things you are not allowed to say if you are feminists.
0:09:15 > 0:09:20Young women are really attracted to powerful men. I was busted for the
0:09:20 > 0:09:24idea that there are young women in the House of commons who are
0:09:24 > 0:09:31throwing themselves at middle-aged, potbellied, balding, older men. We
0:09:31 > 0:09:37need to focus on the right things. When it is unwanted, harassing,
0:09:37 > 0:09:40inappropriate and criminal, absolutely, you come down like a
0:09:40 > 0:09:44tonne of bricks. It is not just because there are more women in the
0:09:44 > 0:09:48Commons, it is because there are more men married to women like us.
0:09:48 > 0:09:51We have to leave it there.
0:09:51 > 0:09:53As attention turns in Westminster to the hundreds
0:09:53 > 0:09:56of amendments put down on the EU Withdrawal Bill, David Davis has
0:09:56 > 0:09:59caused a stir this week by saying it's possible Parliament won't get
0:09:59 > 0:10:02a vote on the Brexit deal until after March 2019 -
0:10:02 > 0:10:04when the clock runs out and we leave the EU.
0:10:04 > 0:10:06Let's take a look at how the controversy played out.
0:10:06 > 0:10:11And which point do you envisage Parliament having a vote?
0:10:11 > 0:10:12As soon as possible thereafter.
0:10:12 > 0:10:15This Parliament?
0:10:15 > 0:10:17As soon as possible possible thereafter, yeah.
0:10:17 > 0:10:18As soon as possible thereafter.
0:10:18 > 0:10:20So, the vote in Parliament...
0:10:20 > 0:10:21The other thing...
0:10:21 > 0:10:22Could be after March 2019?
0:10:22 > 0:10:24It could be, yeah, it could be.
0:10:24 > 0:10:26The...
0:10:26 > 0:10:27It depends when it concludes.
0:10:27 > 0:10:29Mr Barnier, remember, has said he'd like...
0:10:29 > 0:10:32Sorry, the vote of our Parliament, the UK Parliament, could be
0:10:32 > 0:10:33after March 2019?
0:10:33 > 0:10:35Yes, it could be.
0:10:35 > 0:10:37Could be.
0:10:37 > 0:10:38The thing to member...
0:10:38 > 0:10:40Which would be...
0:10:40 > 0:10:42Well, it can't come before we have the deal.
0:10:42 > 0:10:45You said that it is POSSIBLE that Parliament night not vote
0:10:45 > 0:10:48on the deal until AFTER the end of March 2019.
0:10:48 > 0:10:50I'm summarising correctly what you said...?
0:10:50 > 0:10:51Yeah, that's correct.
0:10:51 > 0:10:54In the event we don't do the deal until then, yeah.
0:10:54 > 0:10:56Can the Prime Minister please explain how it's possible
0:10:56 > 0:10:58to have a meaningful vote on something that's
0:10:58 > 0:11:03already taken place?
0:11:03 > 0:11:06As the honourable gentleman knows, we're in negotiations
0:11:06 > 0:11:09with the European Union, but I am confident that the timetable under
0:11:09 > 0:11:13the Lisbon Treaty does give time until March 2019
0:11:13 > 0:11:15for the negotiations to take place.
0:11:15 > 0:11:18But I'm confident, because it is in the interests of both sides,
0:11:18 > 0:11:21it's not just this Parliament that wants to have a vote on that deal,
0:11:21 > 0:11:23but actually there will be ratification by other parliaments,
0:11:23 > 0:11:28that we will be able to achieve that agreement and that negotiation
0:11:28 > 0:11:32in time for this Parliament to have a vote that we committed to.
0:11:32 > 0:11:34We are working to reach an agreement on the final deal
0:11:34 > 0:11:37in good time before we leave the European Union in March 2019.
0:11:37 > 0:11:39Clearly, we cannot say for certain at this stage
0:11:39 > 0:11:41when this will be agreed.
0:11:41 > 0:11:44But as Michel Barnier said, he hopes to get a draft deal
0:11:44 > 0:11:49agreed by October 2018, and that's our aim is well.
0:11:49 > 0:11:53agreed by October 2018, and that's our aim as well.
0:11:53 > 0:11:55I'm joined now by the former Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary
0:11:55 > 0:11:57Benn, who is the chair of the Commons Brexit Committee,
0:11:57 > 0:12:01which David Davis was giving evidence to.
0:12:01 > 0:12:07Good morning.When you think a parliamentary vote should take place
0:12:07 > 0:12:12in order for it to be meaningful?It has to be before we leave the
0:12:12 > 0:12:15European Union. Michel Barnier said at the start of the negotiations
0:12:15 > 0:12:20that he wants to wrap them up by October of next year, so we have
0:12:20 > 0:12:23only got 12 months left, the clock is ticking and there is a huge
0:12:23 > 0:12:27amount of ground to cover.You do not think there is any point in
0:12:27 > 0:12:38having the vote the week before we leave because you could then not go
0:12:38 > 0:12:41and re-negotiate?That would not be acceptable. We will not be given a
0:12:41 > 0:12:44bit of paper and told to take it or leave it. But the following day
0:12:44 > 0:12:47Steve Baker, also a minister in the department, told our committee that
0:12:47 > 0:12:51the government now accepts that in order to implement transitional
0:12:51 > 0:12:55arrangements that it is seeking, it will need separate legislation. I
0:12:55 > 0:12:59put the question to him if you are going to need separate legislation
0:12:59 > 0:13:03to do that, why don't you have a separate bill to implement the
0:13:03 > 0:13:06withdrawal agreement rather than seeking to use the powers the
0:13:06 > 0:13:11government is proposing to take in the EU withdrawal bill.If we stick
0:13:11 > 0:13:15to the timing, you have said you do not think it is possible to
0:13:15 > 0:13:19negotiate a trade deal in the next 12 months. You say the only people
0:13:19 > 0:13:24who think that is possible British ministers. If you do not believe we
0:13:24 > 0:13:29can get a deal negotiated, how can we get a vote on it in 12 months'
0:13:29 > 0:13:33time?If things go well, and there is still a risk of no agreement
0:13:33 > 0:13:47which would be disastrous for the economy and the country, if
0:13:52 > 0:13:55things go there will be a deal on the divorce issues, there will be a
0:13:55 > 0:13:57deal on the nature of the transitional arrangement and the
0:13:57 > 0:14:00government is to set out how it thinks that will work, and then an
0:14:00 > 0:14:03agreement between the UK and the 27 member states saying, we will now
0:14:03 > 0:14:05negotiate a new trade and market access arrangement, and new
0:14:05 > 0:14:07association agreement between the two parties, and that will be done
0:14:07 > 0:14:09in the transition period. Parliament will be voting in those
0:14:09 > 0:14:14circumstances on a deal which leads to the door being open.But we would
0:14:14 > 0:14:19be outside the EU at that point, so how meaningful can vote be where you
0:14:19 > 0:14:24take it or leave it if we have already left the EU? Surely this has
0:14:24 > 0:14:30to happen before March 2019 for it to make a difference?I do not think
0:14:30 > 0:14:34it is possible to negotiate all of the issues that will need to be
0:14:34 > 0:14:39covered in the time available.Then it is not possible to have a
0:14:39 > 0:14:50meaningful vote on it?Parliament will have to have a look at the deal
0:14:50 > 0:14:53presented to it. It is likely to be a mix agreement so the approval
0:14:53 > 0:14:55process in the rest of Europe, unlike the Article 50 agreement,
0:14:55 > 0:14:58which will be a majority vote in the European Parliament and in the
0:14:58 > 0:15:01British Parliament, every single Parliament will have a vote on it,
0:15:01 > 0:15:06so it will be a more complex process anyway, but I do not think that is
0:15:06 > 0:15:12the time to get all of that sorted between now and October next year.
0:15:12 > 0:15:16Whether it is before or after we have left the EU, the government
0:15:16 > 0:15:21have said it is a take it or leave it option and it is the Noel Edmonds
0:15:21 > 0:15:28option, deal or no Deal, you say yes or no to it. You cannot send them
0:15:28 > 0:15:32back to re-negotiate.
0:15:32 > 0:15:38If it is a separate piece of legislation, when Parliament has a
0:15:38 > 0:15:43chance to shape the nature of that legislation.But it can't change
0:15:43 > 0:15:47what has been negotiated with the EU?Well, you could say to the
0:15:47 > 0:15:52government, we're happy with this but was not happy about that chukka
0:15:52 > 0:15:57here's some fresh instructions, go back in and...It seems to me what
0:15:57 > 0:16:01they want is the maximum access to the single market for the lowest
0:16:01 > 0:16:06possible tariffs, whilst able to control migration. If they've got to
0:16:06 > 0:16:10get the best deal that they can on that, how on earth is the Labour
0:16:10 > 0:16:14Party, saying we want a bit more, owing to persuade the other 27?We
0:16:14 > 0:16:18certainly don't want the lowest possible tariffs, we want no tariffs
0:16:18 > 0:16:22are taught. My personal view is that, has made a profound mistake in
0:16:22 > 0:16:28deciding that it wants to leave the customs union. If you want to help
0:16:28 > 0:16:32deal with the very serious question of the border between Northern
0:16:32 > 0:16:36Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, the way you do that is to stay in
0:16:36 > 0:16:41the customs union and I hope, will change its mind.But the Labour
0:16:41 > 0:16:44Party is simply saying in the House of Commons, we want a better deal
0:16:44 > 0:16:52than what, has been able to get?It depends how the negotiations unfold.
0:16:52 > 0:16:57, has ended up on the transitional arrangements in the place that Keir
0:16:57 > 0:17:03Starmer set out on behalf of the shadow cabinet in August, when he
0:17:03 > 0:17:06said, we will need to stay in the single market and the customs union
0:17:06 > 0:17:09for the duration of the transition, and I think that is the position,
0:17:09 > 0:17:14has now reached. It has not been helped by differences of view within
0:17:14 > 0:17:18the Cabinet, and a lot of time has passed and there's proved time left
0:17:18 > 0:17:23and we have not even got on to the negotiations. -- there's very little
0:17:23 > 0:17:29time left.On phase two, the labour Party have set out six clear tests,
0:17:29 > 0:17:34and two of them are crucial. You say you want the exact same benefits we
0:17:34 > 0:17:38currently have in the customs union but you also want to be able to
0:17:38 > 0:17:42ensure the fair migration to control immigration, basically, which does
0:17:42 > 0:17:45sound a bit like having your cake and eating it. You say that you will
0:17:45 > 0:17:49vote against any deal that doesn't give you all of that, the exact same
0:17:49 > 0:17:53benefits of the single market, and allowing you to control migration.
0:17:53 > 0:17:57But you say no deal would be catastrophic if so it seems to me
0:17:57 > 0:18:00you're unlikely to get the deal that you could vote for but you don't
0:18:00 > 0:18:05want to vote for no deal?We absolutely don't want a no deal.
0:18:05 > 0:18:11Businesses have sent a letter to the Prime Minister saying that a
0:18:11 > 0:18:14transition is essential because the possibility of a no deal and no
0:18:14 > 0:18:17transitional would be very damaging for the economy. We fought the
0:18:17 > 0:18:20general election on a policy of seeking to retain the benefits of
0:18:20 > 0:18:24the single market and the customs union. Keir Starmer said on behalf
0:18:24 > 0:18:29of the shadow government that as far as the longer term arrangements are
0:18:29 > 0:18:32concerned, that should leave all options on the table, because it is
0:18:32 > 0:18:36the end that you're trying to achieve and you then find the means
0:18:36 > 0:18:41to support it. So we're setting out very clearly those tests.If you
0:18:41 > 0:18:44were to vote down an agreement because it did not meet your tests,
0:18:44 > 0:18:50and there was time to send, back to the EU to get a better deal, then
0:18:50 > 0:18:52you would have significantly weakened their negotiating hand
0:18:52 > 0:18:56chukka that doesn't help them?I don't think, has deployed its
0:18:56 > 0:19:01negotiating hand very strongly thus far. Because we had a general
0:19:01 > 0:19:04election which meant that we lost time that we would have used for
0:19:04 > 0:19:08negotiating. We still don't know what kind of long-term trade and
0:19:08 > 0:19:15market access deal, wants. The Prime Minister says, I don't want a deal
0:19:15 > 0:19:19like Canada and I don't want a deal like the European Economic Area. But
0:19:19 > 0:19:23we still don't know what kind of deal they want. With about 12 months
0:19:23 > 0:19:27to go, the other thing, needs to do is to set out very clearly above all
0:19:27 > 0:19:32for the benefit of the other 27 European countries, what kind of
0:19:32 > 0:19:35deal it wants. When I travel to Europe and talk to those involved in
0:19:35 > 0:19:40the negotiations, you see other leaders saying, we don't actually
0:19:40 > 0:19:44know what Britain wants. With a year to go it is about time we made that
0:19:44 > 0:19:50clear.One related question on the European Union - you spoke in your
0:19:50 > 0:19:54famous speech in Syria about the international brigades in Spain, and
0:19:54 > 0:19:58I wonder if your solidarity with them leads you to think that the UK
0:19:58 > 0:20:01Government should be recognising Catalonia is an independent state?
0:20:01 > 0:20:06No, I don't think so. It is a very difficult and potentially dangerous
0:20:06 > 0:20:11situation in Catalonia at the moment. Direct rule from Madrid is
0:20:11 > 0:20:16not a long-term solution. There needs to be a negotiation, and
0:20:16 > 0:20:20elections will give Catalonia the chance to take that decision, but I
0:20:20 > 0:20:27am not clear what the declaration of independence actually means. Are
0:20:27 > 0:20:31they going to be borders, is they're going to be an army? There will have
0:20:31 > 0:20:34to be some agreement. Catalonia has already had a high degree of
0:20:34 > 0:20:39autonomy. It may like some more, and it seems to me if you look at the
0:20:39 > 0:20:44experience here in the United Kingdom, that is the way to go, not
0:20:44 > 0:20:47a constitutional stand-off. And I really hope nobody is charged with
0:20:47 > 0:20:51rebellion, because actually that would make matters worse.
0:20:51 > 0:20:55Now, the Government has this week reopened the public
0:20:55 > 0:20:58consultation on plans for a third runway at Heathrow.
0:20:58 > 0:21:00While ministers are clear the £18 billion project
0:21:00 > 0:21:02is still the preferred option, new data raises further questions
0:21:02 > 0:21:03about the environmental impact of expansion,
0:21:03 > 0:21:05and offers an improved economic case for a second
0:21:05 > 0:21:07runway at Gatwick instead.
0:21:07 > 0:21:10So, with opponents on all sides of the Commons, does the Government
0:21:10 > 0:21:12still have the votes to get the plans off the ground?
0:21:12 > 0:21:21Here's Elizabeth Glinka.
0:21:25 > 0:21:28The debate over the expansion of Heathrow has been
0:21:28 > 0:21:29going on for decades.
0:21:29 > 0:21:31Plans for a third runway were first introduced
0:21:31 > 0:21:33by the Labour government in 2003.
0:21:33 > 0:21:37Then, after spending millions of pounds, finally, in 2015,
0:21:37 > 0:21:42the airport commission recommended that those plans go ahead,
0:21:42 > 0:21:45and the government position appeared to be fixed.
0:21:45 > 0:21:48But, of course, since then, we've had a general election.
0:21:48 > 0:21:52The Government have lost their Commons majority.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55And with opposition on both front benches, the Parliamentary
0:21:55 > 0:21:59arithmetic looks a little bit up in the air.
0:21:59 > 0:22:02A lot has changed since the airport commission produced its report,
0:22:02 > 0:22:05and that don't forget was the bedrock for the Government's
0:22:05 > 0:22:07decision, that's why the government supposedly made the decision
0:22:07 > 0:22:08that it made.
0:22:08 > 0:22:11But most of the assumptions made in that report have
0:22:11 > 0:22:13been undermined since, by data on passenger numbers,
0:22:13 > 0:22:16on economic benefits, and more than anything, on pollution.
0:22:16 > 0:22:19There's demand from international carriers to get into Heathrow.
0:22:19 > 0:22:22More and more people want to fly.
0:22:22 > 0:22:25And after the referendum, connectivity post-Brexit
0:22:25 > 0:22:28is going to be absolutely critical to the UK economy, so if anything,
0:22:28 > 0:22:34I think the case is stronger for expansion at Heathrow.
0:22:34 > 0:22:37A vote on expansion had been due to take place this summer.
0:22:37 > 0:22:39But with Westminster somewhat distracted, that didn't happen.
0:22:39 > 0:22:42Now, fresh data means the Government has had to reopen
0:22:42 > 0:22:48the public consultation.
0:22:48 > 0:22:51But it maintains the case for Heathrow is as strong as ever,
0:22:51 > 0:22:56delivering benefits of up to £74 billion to the wider economy.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59And in any case, the Government says, action must be taken,
0:22:59 > 0:23:03as all five of London's airports will be completely
0:23:03 > 0:23:08full by the mid-2030s.
0:23:08 > 0:23:10Still, the new research does cast an alternative expansion at Gatwick
0:23:10 > 0:23:14in a more favourable economic light, while showing Heathrow
0:23:14 > 0:23:22is now less likely to meet its environmental targets.
0:23:22 > 0:23:26Campaigners like these in Hounslow sense the wind is shifting.
0:23:26 > 0:23:29We're feeling encouraged, because we see all kinds
0:23:29 > 0:23:31of weaknesses in the argument.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34Certainly, quite a few MPs, I think certainly Labour MPs,
0:23:34 > 0:23:37are beginning to think perhaps it's not such a great idea
0:23:37 > 0:23:39to have a third runway.
0:23:39 > 0:23:41Their MP is convinced colleagues can now be persuaded
0:23:41 > 0:23:44to see things their way.
0:23:44 > 0:23:46The Labour Party quite rightly set four key tests
0:23:46 > 0:23:49for a third runway at Heathrow.
0:23:49 > 0:23:52And in my view, Heathrow is not able...
0:23:52 > 0:23:56The Heathrow option is not able to pass any of those.
0:23:56 > 0:23:59So, I see a lot of colleagues in the Labour Party around
0:23:59 > 0:24:01the country beginning to think twice.
0:24:01 > 0:24:07And if you look at the cross-party MPs supportin this anti-Heathrow
0:24:07 > 0:24:10And if you look at the cross-party MPs supporting this anti-Heathrow
0:24:10 > 0:24:12protest this week, you will see some familiar faces.
0:24:12 > 0:24:15You know my position - as the constituency MP,
0:24:15 > 0:24:16I'm totally opposed.
0:24:16 > 0:24:19I think this is another indication of just the difficulties
0:24:19 > 0:24:21the Government have got off of implementing this policy.
0:24:21 > 0:24:23I don't think it's going to happen, I just don't think
0:24:23 > 0:24:24it's going to happen.
0:24:24 > 0:24:27So, if some on the Labour front bench are, shall
0:24:27 > 0:24:30we say, not supportive, what about the other side?
0:24:30 > 0:24:33In a free vote, we could have had up to 60 Conservative MPs
0:24:33 > 0:24:35voting against expansion, that's the number that is normally
0:24:35 > 0:24:36used and I think it's right.
0:24:36 > 0:24:38In the circumstances where it requires an active rebellion,
0:24:38 > 0:24:40the numbers would be fewer.
0:24:40 > 0:24:43I can't tell you what that number is, but I can tell
0:24:43 > 0:24:46you that there are people right the way through the party,
0:24:46 > 0:24:48from the backbenches to the heart of the government,
0:24:48 > 0:24:49who will vote against Heathrow expansion.
0:24:49 > 0:24:53And yet the SNP, whose Commons votes could prove vital,
0:24:53 > 0:24:55are behind the Heathrow plan, which promises more
0:24:55 > 0:24:56connecting flights.
0:24:56 > 0:25:00And other supporters are convinced they have the numbers.
0:25:00 > 0:25:03There is a majority of members of Parliament that support Heathrow
0:25:03 > 0:25:06expansion, and when that is put to the test, whenever that will be,
0:25:06 > 0:25:08I think that will be clearly demonstrated.
0:25:08 > 0:25:10Any vote on this issue won't come until next summer.
0:25:10 > 0:25:13For both sides, yet more time to argue about weather
0:25:13 > 0:25:20the plans should take off or be permanently grounded.
0:25:24 > 0:25:25Elizabeth Glinka there.
0:25:25 > 0:25:28And I'm joined now by the former Cabinet minister Theresa Villiers,
0:25:28 > 0:25:30who oversaw aviation policy as a transport minister
0:25:30 > 0:25:37under David Cameron.
0:25:37 > 0:25:42Thanks for coming in. You have made your opposition to a third runway at
0:25:42 > 0:25:46Heathrow consistently clear. , have reopened this consultation but it is
0:25:46 > 0:25:50still clearly their preferred option?It is but what I have always
0:25:50 > 0:25:53asked is, why try to build a new runway at Heathrow when you can
0:25:53 > 0:25:56build one at Gatwick in half the time, for half the cost and with a
0:25:56 > 0:26:00tiny fraction of the environment will cost average is that true,
0:26:00 > 0:26:04though? Private finance is already to go at Heathrow, because that's
0:26:04 > 0:26:07where people want to do it and that's where the private backers
0:26:07 > 0:26:11want to put it. It would take much longer to get the private finance
0:26:11 > 0:26:16for Gatwick? Part of that private finance is passengers of the future,
0:26:16 > 0:26:21but also, the costs of the surface transport needed to expand Heathrow
0:26:21 > 0:26:29is phenomenal. I mean, TfL estimates vary between £10 billion and £15
0:26:29 > 0:26:32billion. And there's no suggestion that those private backers are going
0:26:32 > 0:26:37to meet those costs. So, this is a hugely expensive project as well as
0:26:37 > 0:26:41one which will create very significant damage.Heathrow is
0:26:41 > 0:26:44ultimately where passengers and airlines want to go to, isn't it?
0:26:44 > 0:26:49Every slot is practically full. Every time a new one comes up, it is
0:26:49 > 0:26:54up immediately, it's a very popular airport. Gatwick is not where they
0:26:54 > 0:26:58want to go?There are many airlines and passengers who do want to fly
0:26:58 > 0:27:02from Gatwick, and all the forecasts indicate that a new runway there
0:27:02 > 0:27:06would be full of planes very rapidly. But I think the key thing
0:27:06 > 0:27:11is that successive elements have said, technology will deliver a way
0:27:11 > 0:27:17to resolve the around noise and air quality. I don't have any confidence
0:27:17 > 0:27:21that science has demonstrated that technology will deliver those
0:27:21 > 0:27:26solutions to these very serious environmental limbs which have
0:27:26 > 0:27:28stopped Heathrow expansion for decades.Jim Fitzpatrick in the film
0:27:28 > 0:27:33was mentioning that people think there is a need for even more
0:27:33 > 0:27:36collectivity in Britain post-Brexit. We know that business has been
0:27:36 > 0:27:40crying out for more routes, they really think it hurts business
0:27:40 > 0:27:44expansion that we don't get on with this. More consultation is just
0:27:44 > 0:27:48going to lead to more delay, isn't it?This is a hugely controversial
0:27:48 > 0:27:51decision. There is a reason why people have been talking about
0:27:51 > 0:27:54expanding Heathrow for 50 years and it is never happened, it's because
0:27:54 > 0:27:59it's a bad idea. So, inevitably the legal processes are very complex.
0:27:59 > 0:28:04One of my anxieties about, pursuing this option is that potentially it
0:28:04 > 0:28:07means another lost decade for airport expansion. Because the
0:28:07 > 0:28:13problems with Heathrow expansion are so serious, I believe that's one of
0:28:13 > 0:28:16the reasons why I advocated, anyone who wants a new runway in the
0:28:16 > 0:28:20south-east should be backing Gatwick is a much more deliverable option.
0:28:20 > 0:28:26Let me move on to Brexit. We were talking with Hilary Benn about a
0:28:26 > 0:28:29meaningful vote being given to the House of Commons chukka how
0:28:29 > 0:28:32important do you think that is?Of course the Commons will vote on
0:28:32 > 0:28:38this. The Commons is going to vote on this many, many times. We have
0:28:38 > 0:28:41also had a hugely important vote not only in the referendum on the 23rd
0:28:41 > 0:28:45of June but also on Article 50.But will that vote allow any changes to
0:28:45 > 0:28:51it? Hilary Benn seemed to think that the Commons would be able to shape
0:28:51 > 0:28:55the deal with the vote. But actually is it going to be, saying, take it
0:28:55 > 0:29:00or leave it at all what we have negotiated?Our Prime Minister
0:29:00 > 0:29:05negotiates on our behalf internationally. It's
0:29:05 > 0:29:07well-established precedent that after an agreement is reached
0:29:07 > 0:29:13overseas, then it is considered in the House of Commons.What if it was
0:29:13 > 0:29:17voted down in the House of Commons? Well, the legal effect of that would
0:29:17 > 0:29:20be that we left the European Union without any kind of deal, because
0:29:20 > 0:29:25the key decision was on the voting of Article 50 as an irreversible
0:29:25 > 0:29:30decision.Is it irreversible, though? We understand, may have had
0:29:30 > 0:29:34legal advice saying that Yukon stopped the clock on Article 50.
0:29:34 > 0:29:38Would it not be possible if the Commons voted against to ask the
0:29:38 > 0:29:41European Union for a little bit more time to try and renegotiate?There
0:29:41 > 0:29:49is a debate about the reversibility of Article 50. But the key point is
0:29:49 > 0:29:55that we are all working for a good deal for the United Kingdom and the
0:29:55 > 0:29:59I'm concerned that some of the amendments to the legislation are
0:29:59 > 0:30:02not about the nature of the deal at the end of the process, they're just
0:30:02 > 0:30:09about frustrating the process. I think that would be wrong. I think
0:30:09 > 0:30:12we should respect the result of the referendum.Will it be by next
0:30:12 > 0:30:15summer, so there is time for Parliament and for other
0:30:15 > 0:30:18parliaments?I certainly hope that we get that agreement between the
0:30:18 > 0:30:23two sides, and the recent European summit seemed to indicate a
0:30:23 > 0:30:27willingness from the European side to be constructive. But one point
0:30:27 > 0:30:31where I think Hilary Benn has a point, if we do secure agreement on
0:30:31 > 0:30:34a transitional deal, that does potentially give us more time to
0:30:34 > 0:30:39work on the details of a trade agreement. I hope we get as much as
0:30:39 > 0:30:43possible in place before exit day. But filling out some of that detail
0:30:43 > 0:30:51is made easier if we can secure that two-year transitional deal.
0:30:51 > 0:30:58That is interesting because a lot of Brexiteers what the deal to be done
0:30:58 > 0:31:06by the inflammation period, it is not a time for that.I fully
0:31:06 > 0:31:11recognise we need compromise, I am keen to work with people across my
0:31:11 > 0:31:14party in terms of spectrum of opinion, and with other parties as
0:31:14 > 0:31:19well to ensure we get the best outcome.Let me ask you briefly
0:31:19 > 0:31:23before you go about the possible culture of sexual harassment in the
0:31:23 > 0:31:29House of commons and Theresa May will write to the Speaker of the
0:31:29 > 0:31:32House of Commons to make sure there is a better way that people can
0:31:32 > 0:31:37report sexual harassment in the House of commons. Is that necessary?
0:31:37 > 0:31:42A better procedure is needed. It is sad it has taken this controversy to
0:31:42 > 0:31:47push this forward. But there is a problem with MPs who are individual
0:31:47 > 0:31:52employers. If you work for an MP and have a complaint against them,
0:31:52 > 0:31:55essentially they are overseeing their own complaints process. I
0:31:55 > 0:32:00think a role for the House of commons authorities in ensuring that
0:32:00 > 0:32:04those complaints are properly dealt with I think would be very helpful,
0:32:04 > 0:32:08so I think the Prime Minister's letter was a sensible move.So you
0:32:08 > 0:32:12think there is a culture of sexual harassment in the House of commons?
0:32:12 > 0:32:19I have not been subjected to it or seen evidence of it, but obviously
0:32:19 > 0:32:22there is anxiety and allegations have made their way into the papers
0:32:22 > 0:32:26and they should be treated appropriately and properly
0:32:26 > 0:32:28investigated.Thank you for talking to us.
0:32:28 > 0:32:30Thank you for talking to us.
0:32:30 > 0:32:32Next week the Lord Speaker's committee publishes its final report
0:32:32 > 0:32:34into reducing the size of the House of Lords.
0:32:34 > 0:32:37With over 800 members the upper house is the second largest
0:32:37 > 0:32:39legislative chamber in the world after the National People's
0:32:39 > 0:32:40Congress of China.
0:32:40 > 0:32:43The report is expected to recommend that new peerages should be
0:32:43 > 0:32:46time-limited to 15 years and that in the future political peerage
0:32:46 > 0:32:50appointments will also be tied to a party's election performance.
0:32:50 > 0:32:53The government has been under pressure to take action to cut
0:32:53 > 0:32:56members of the unelected chamber, where they are entitled
0:32:56 > 0:33:00to claim an attendance allowance of £300 a day.
0:33:00 > 0:33:03And once again these expenses have been in the news.
0:33:03 > 0:33:05The Electoral Reform Society discovered that 16 peers had claimed
0:33:05 > 0:33:08around £400,000 without speaking in any debates or submitting any
0:33:08 > 0:33:12questions for an entire year.
0:33:12 > 0:33:15One of the Lords to be criticised was Digby Jones,
0:33:15 > 0:33:18the crossbencher and former trade minister, he hasn't spoken
0:33:18 > 0:33:21in the Lords since April 2016 and has voted only seven times
0:33:21 > 0:33:24during 2016 and 2017.
0:33:24 > 0:33:28Yet he has claimed around £15,000 in this period.
0:33:28 > 0:33:31When asked what he does in the House he said,
0:33:31 > 0:33:34"I go in and I will invite for lunch or meet with inward
0:33:34 > 0:33:35investors into the country.
0:33:35 > 0:33:38I fly the flag for Britain."
0:33:38 > 0:33:41Well, we can speak now to Lord Jones who joins us
0:33:41 > 0:33:45from Stratford Upon Avon.
0:33:45 > 0:33:50Thank you very much for talking to us. You provide value for money in
0:33:50 > 0:33:57the House of Lords do you think? Definitely. I am, by the way, very
0:33:57 > 0:34:02keen on reform. I want to see that 15 year tide. I would like to see a
0:34:02 > 0:34:07time limit, an age limit of 75 or 80. I would like attendants
0:34:07 > 0:34:11definitely define so the whole public understood what people are
0:34:11 > 0:34:18paying for and why. The £300, as a crossbencher I get no support, and
0:34:18 > 0:34:26nor do I want any, speech writing, secretarial assistance, none of
0:34:26 > 0:34:30that, and the £300 goes towards that.Whilst you are in there
0:34:30 > 0:34:35because we will talk about the reform of the Lords in general, but
0:34:35 > 0:34:39in terms of you yourself, you say you invite people in for lunch, is
0:34:39 > 0:34:42it not possible for you to take part in debates and votes and ask
0:34:42 > 0:34:48questions at the same time?Have you ever listened to a debate in the
0:34:48 > 0:35:00laws? Yes, many times.Yes, many times. You have to put your name
0:35:00 > 0:35:08down in advance and you have to be there for the whole debate.You have
0:35:08 > 0:35:11to be around when the vote is called and you do not know when the book is
0:35:11 > 0:35:15called, you have no idea when the boat is going to be called.This is
0:35:15 > 0:35:22part of being a member of the House of Lords and what it means. If you
0:35:22 > 0:35:25are not prepared to wait or take part in debates, why do you want to
0:35:25 > 0:35:30be a member? It is possible to resign from the House of Lords.
0:35:30 > 0:35:34There are many things members of the Lords do that does not relate to
0:35:34 > 0:35:39parrot fashion following somebody else, which I refuse to do, about
0:35:39 > 0:35:44speaking to an empty chamber, or indeed hanging on sometimes for
0:35:44 > 0:35:49hours to vote. There are many other things that you do. You quote me as
0:35:49 > 0:35:53saying I will entertain at lunchtime or show people around the House,
0:35:53 > 0:35:57everything from schoolchildren to inward investors. I will meet
0:35:57 > 0:36:00ministers about big business issues or educational issues, and at the
0:36:00 > 0:36:05same time I will meet other members of the Lords to get things moving.
0:36:05 > 0:36:09None of that relates to going into the House and getting on your hind
0:36:09 > 0:36:13legs, although I do go in and sit there and learn and listen to
0:36:13 > 0:36:19others, which, if more people would receive and not transmit, we might
0:36:19 > 0:36:23get a better informed society. At the same time many times I will go
0:36:23 > 0:36:28after I have listened and I am leaving and if I have not heard the
0:36:28 > 0:36:34debate, I will not vote.Voting is an essential part of being part of a
0:36:34 > 0:36:39legislative chamber. This is not just an executive committee, it is a
0:36:39 > 0:36:45legislature, surpassing that law is essential, is it not?Do you really
0:36:45 > 0:36:49believe that an MP or a member of the Lords who has not heard a moment
0:36:49 > 0:36:55of the debate, who is then listening to the Bell, walks in and does not
0:36:55 > 0:36:59know which lobby, the whips tell him, they have not heard the debate
0:36:59 > 0:37:04and they do not know what they are voting on and they go and do it?
0:37:04 > 0:37:10That is your democracy? Voting seems to be an essential part of this
0:37:10 > 0:37:14chamber, and you have your ideas about reforming the chamber. It
0:37:14 > 0:37:18sounds as though you would reform yourself out of it. You say people
0:37:18 > 0:37:22who are not voting and who are not taking part in debate should no
0:37:22 > 0:37:28longer be members of the House.I did not say that. I said we ought to
0:37:28 > 0:37:33redefine what attendance means and then if you do not attend on the new
0:37:33 > 0:37:37criteria, you do not have to come ever again, we will give you your
0:37:37 > 0:37:42wish. I agree attendance might mean unless you speak, you are going.
0:37:42 > 0:37:47Fair enough, if that is what is agreed, yes. Sometimes I would speak
0:37:47 > 0:37:53and sometimes I would not. If I did not, then off I go. Similarly after
0:37:53 > 0:37:5915 years, off you go. If you reach 75 or 80, off you go. Why do we have
0:37:59 > 0:38:0592 members who are only there because of daddy.You are talking
0:38:05 > 0:38:08about hereditary peers. You would like to reduce the House to what
0:38:08 > 0:38:15kind of number?I would get it down to 400.You would get rid of half
0:38:15 > 0:38:18the peers there at the moment? You think you are active enough to
0:38:18 > 0:38:26remain as one of the 400?No, I said that might well include me. Let's
0:38:26 > 0:38:31get a set of criteria, let's push it through, because the laws is losing
0:38:31 > 0:38:35respect in the whole of the country because there are too many and all
0:38:35 > 0:38:39these things about what people pay for. I bet most people think the
0:38:39 > 0:38:44money you get is paid. It is not, it is re-funding for all the things you
0:38:44 > 0:38:49have to pay for yourself. But I understand how respect has been lost
0:38:49 > 0:38:54in society. Let's change it now. Let's get it through and then, yes,
0:38:54 > 0:38:59if you do not meet the criteria, you have got to go and that includes me.
0:38:59 > 0:39:01Lloyd Jones, thank you for talking to us.
0:39:01 > 0:39:04Lloyd Jones, thank you for talking to us.
0:39:04 > 0:39:06It's coming up to 11.40, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
0:39:06 > 0:39:09Coming up on the programme, we'll be talking to the former
0:39:09 > 0:39:12business minister and Conservative MP Anna Soubry about the Brexit
0:39:12 > 0:39:14negotiations and claims of sexual harassment in Parliament.
0:39:22 > 0:39:27This is the Sunday Politics in the South East.
0:39:27 > 0:39:32Coming up later, can the leader of East Sussex County Council
0:39:32 > 0:39:35justify a 37% pay hike while public sector workers are struggling to get
0:39:35 > 0:39:36by on stagnant wages?
0:39:36 > 0:39:38We ask him.
0:39:38 > 0:39:41Joining me today in the studio are Sussex-based Labour peer
0:39:41 > 0:39:43Baroness Maggie Jones and Conservative MP
0:39:43 > 0:39:44for Dartford, Gareth Johnson.
0:39:44 > 0:39:47A very warm welcome.
0:39:47 > 0:39:49Now the South East's international transport
0:39:49 > 0:39:50links are vital to its economy.
0:39:50 > 0:39:52The Eurotunnel, Gatwick Airport and the
0:39:52 > 0:39:55Port of Dover play a crucial role in getting large volumes of goods
0:39:55 > 0:39:58and people in and out of the country.
0:39:58 > 0:39:59But they currently depend on frictionless trade
0:40:00 > 0:40:03and a series of agreements
0:40:03 > 0:40:05with our European partners to run smoothly.
0:40:05 > 0:40:08So what happens if these break down as a result of Brexit?
0:40:08 > 0:40:12We have been finding out.
0:40:15 > 0:40:17Gatwick Airport.
0:40:17 > 0:40:23On the site alone, there are 23,000 people employed.
0:40:23 > 0:40:25In 2016, there were around 43 million
0:40:25 > 0:40:26visitors to the UK passing through the airport,
0:40:26 > 0:40:30directly creating £1.2 billion in tax revenues for the UK
0:40:30 > 0:40:33Government.
0:40:33 > 0:40:35Keeping the planes in the EU skies are service agreements,
0:40:35 > 0:40:39meaning aircraft can come and go from the UK.
0:40:39 > 0:40:42So coming out of the EU, the Government would have to
0:40:42 > 0:40:48replace the EU framework governing where airlines can fly.
0:40:48 > 0:40:50Airports across the EU all want to see the
0:40:50 > 0:40:54legal framework agreed upon.
0:40:54 > 0:40:57I guess where the frustration comes is actually those talks have not
0:40:57 > 0:40:58actually started.
0:40:58 > 0:41:01So we are keen that both sides of these
0:41:01 > 0:41:03negotiations put that effort in and start getting into those
0:41:03 > 0:41:05detailed discussions as soon as possible.
0:41:05 > 0:41:07Because that is really what the sector needs.
0:41:07 > 0:41:08Dover.
0:41:08 > 0:41:10Over 12 million passengers and just over £2.5
0:41:10 > 0:41:11million road haulage vehicles travel through
0:41:12 > 0:41:17Dover in 2016.
0:41:17 > 0:41:20The Dover Strait is the world's easiest shipping lane
0:41:20 > 0:41:23with up to 600 ships a day passing through the narrow waters between
0:41:23 > 0:41:24the UK and France.
0:41:24 > 0:41:27-- the busiest shipping lane.
0:41:27 > 0:41:36At the moment, goods can be traded within the
0:41:36 > 0:41:39European Union as the UK as part of the EU Customs Union.
0:41:39 > 0:41:41Meaning items are not subject to any customs duty or
0:41:41 > 0:41:42quotas.
0:41:42 > 0:41:44But when Britain leaves, the Government will
0:41:44 > 0:41:45need to establish a
0:41:45 > 0:41:46new customs arrangement.
0:41:46 > 0:41:47Dover is the cheapest way
0:41:47 > 0:41:48in which to take goods across.
0:41:48 > 0:41:55It is the shortest crossing.
0:41:55 > 0:41:58If each lorry is held for two minutes more in Dover and it is a
0:41:58 > 0:42:00--
0:42:02 > 0:42:06moment, it is estimated that this will result in traffic jams of at
0:42:06 > 0:42:09least 17 miles long.
0:42:09 > 0:42:11-- than it is at the moment.
0:42:11 > 0:42:13And remember that will be virtually every day of
0:42:13 > 0:42:14the year.
0:42:14 > 0:42:16So what do we have?
0:42:16 > 0:42:18We have a lot more cost to business, we
0:42:18 > 0:42:21have wasted money with lorries being stationary and it is certainly not
0:42:21 > 0:42:22good for Dover.
0:42:22 > 0:42:24The Channel Tunnel, £100 billion worth of trade is
0:42:24 > 0:42:26brought in by the Channel Tunnel each year.
0:42:26 > 0:42:30Last year there were about 21 million passengers across
0:42:30 > 0:42:35all services and 1.6 million lorries crossed using the link.
0:42:35 > 0:42:39Speed and frequency are vital.
0:42:39 > 0:42:41Similar to the shipping industry, the sector needs
0:42:41 > 0:42:44a clear customs framework in place before the UK leaves the EU.
0:42:44 > 0:42:49I think the worst case scenario is unimaginable.
0:42:49 > 0:42:55So we're not even considering that it could happen,
0:42:55 > 0:42:57because the damage to the economies on both sides
0:42:57 > 0:43:00of the Channel would be considerable.
0:43:00 > 0:43:02It is incredibly frustrating not knowing what the
0:43:02 > 0:43:05outcome will be in a couple of years.
0:43:05 > 0:43:08If there were to be some kind of disruption to the fluidity of
0:43:08 > 0:43:12traffic at the Channel Tunnel then that would have an impact across
0:43:12 > 0:43:16industry and across the continent, not just across the UK.
0:43:16 > 0:43:18There is no real default Brexit deal for each
0:43:18 > 0:43:20industry.
0:43:20 > 0:43:24Yet despite the unknown and uncertainty leaving the EU could
0:43:24 > 0:43:31create new business avenues.
0:43:31 > 0:43:33There are all sorts of things that could be
0:43:33 > 0:43:35opportunities for us, not least what happens
0:43:35 > 0:43:38to duty-free, example.
0:43:38 > 0:43:42But actually we won't know all
0:43:42 > 0:43:43of those opportunities and how we can benefit
0:43:43 > 0:43:45from them until we get a
0:43:45 > 0:43:46framework sorted.
0:43:46 > 0:43:47It is a great opportunity
0:43:47 > 0:43:50to use Brexit as a springboard for being able to attract more ships
0:43:50 > 0:43:53into this country.
0:43:53 > 0:43:56In reality, we can almost see Brexit as an
0:43:56 > 0:43:59opportunity to bring forward some of the projects that industry has
0:43:59 > 0:44:00been promoting over the past few years,
0:44:00 > 0:44:03using the digital economy in a more effective way.
0:44:03 > 0:44:06Each sector has its own hopes and fears as to what
0:44:06 > 0:44:08Brexit will bring.
0:44:08 > 0:44:10But all are agreed that the sooner trade deals
0:44:10 > 0:44:14are set out, the better to keep the South East economy moving.
0:44:17 > 0:44:20Gareth Johnson, David Davis appeared to
0:44:20 > 0:44:24dismiss that figure we heard there from Dover earlier this week, the 17
0:44:24 > 0:44:28miles of queues, saying it sounded incredibly dramatic.
0:44:28 > 0:44:30Are you satisfied he is taking the risk to
0:44:30 > 0:44:31the South East seriously?
0:44:31 > 0:44:35Yes, I am.
0:44:35 > 0:44:38What we can all be confident about, I think, is that there is a
0:44:38 > 0:44:40desire on both sides of the Channel to get
0:44:40 > 0:44:41a system that works.
0:44:41 > 0:44:44France doesn't want queues of traffic in Calais any more than we
0:44:44 > 0:44:49want queues of traffic in Dover.
0:44:49 > 0:44:52There is an opportunity here, and I totally agree with your piece,
0:44:52 > 0:45:01through Brexit we can look at issues like free
0:45:01 > 0:45:06 ports, where you have
0:45:06 > 0:45:09geographically a port in the UK but free of any customs or tariffs.
0:45:09 > 0:45:11There are something like 3,500 of those
0:45:11 > 0:45:12worldwide, but not one the UK.
0:45:12 > 0:45:14The reason for that is because of the
0:45:14 > 0:45:15EU.
0:45:15 > 0:45:18But of course what we heard in the piece there
0:45:18 > 0:45:19was that things need to
0:45:19 > 0:45:20be got under way.
0:45:20 > 0:45:22We need things to be happening to be able to take
0:45:22 > 0:45:24advantage of that sort of opportunity.
0:45:24 > 0:45:25We do.
0:45:25 > 0:45:26We need the negotiations.
0:45:26 > 0:45:29That is the main aim, that we have a negotiated agreement
0:45:29 > 0:45:32with the European Union whereby we can use the basis of the systems
0:45:32 > 0:45:35that we have at the moment as a system for the future.
0:45:35 > 0:45:36That is important because obviously
0:45:36 > 0:45:37there is the familiarity there.
0:45:37 > 0:45:39I'm actually quite confident that we can do so.
0:45:39 > 0:45:43It is in the EU's interests and in the UK's interests for that to
0:45:43 > 0:45:44happen, so I can see it happening.
0:45:44 > 0:45:46Maggie Jones, we're talking about certainty for business.
0:45:46 > 0:45:48That is one thing that Labour's Brexit plans
0:45:48 > 0:45:50really don't give, isn't it?
0:45:50 > 0:45:51Well, they certainly do give certainty.
0:45:51 > 0:45:54We've made it absolutely clear that we think we should be having
0:45:54 > 0:45:56access to the single market in the long
0:45:56 > 0:45:57term.
0:45:57 > 0:45:58And access to a customs union.
0:45:58 > 0:46:01And actually that is what British business want, as well.
0:46:01 > 0:46:03If you listen to the CBI, all of the voices of
0:46:03 > 0:46:04British business...
0:46:04 > 0:46:06But you have said there is a possibility you
0:46:06 > 0:46:10could stay in the single market, or it might be a deal outside it
0:46:10 > 0:46:11or a two-year transitional...
0:46:11 > 0:46:14It is about certainty and we want something that is akin or better
0:46:14 > 0:46:17to what we have now, which is certainly not anything that
0:46:17 > 0:46:19appears to be on the cards at the current
0:46:19 > 0:46:20time.
0:46:20 > 0:46:23If we stick with something that is very close to what we have
0:46:23 > 0:46:26now, though, might we miss out on some of those opportunities?
0:46:26 > 0:46:28The Airport Operators Association is talking about things like halving
0:46:28 > 0:46:29passenger duties.
0:46:29 > 0:46:32If we try and keep what we have now, won't we miss out?
0:46:32 > 0:46:36Well, if you look at where business takes place, so much of our exports
0:46:36 > 0:46:37to the EU.
0:46:37 > 0:46:38So much of imports from the EU.
0:46:38 > 0:46:40To replace that with something different or that has
0:46:40 > 0:46:42tariffs attached to it would have a really
0:46:42 > 0:46:43dampening effect on the
0:46:43 > 0:46:44British economy.
0:46:44 > 0:46:47So we cannot afford to take risks on all of that.
0:46:47 > 0:46:49If you take my area, agriculture, 80% of
0:46:49 > 0:46:50agricultural exports go to the EU.
0:46:50 > 0:46:56And something equivalent comes back again.
0:46:56 > 0:46:59So we may find some other markets out there, but it will be a
0:46:59 > 0:47:02very tough job to replace that core market of EU.
0:47:02 > 0:47:04And talking about protecting that, we only 18 months
0:47:04 > 0:47:08away from Brexit, Gareth Johnson, if we're really going to be prepared
0:47:08 > 0:47:12for any possible no deal scenario, shouldn't we be seeing diggers out
0:47:12 > 0:47:14now, spades in the ground, technology being rolled
0:47:14 > 0:47:15out and piloted.
0:47:15 > 0:47:17We're not seeing that.
0:47:17 > 0:47:21The Department for Transport has been working both with
0:47:21 > 0:47:23the aviation sector and with the maritime
0:47:23 > 0:47:24trading sector to ensure
0:47:24 > 0:47:27that there are contingency plans in the event of a no deal.
0:47:27 > 0:47:28Are they good enough?
0:47:28 > 0:47:31Your Kent MP colleague this week has said things need to be
0:47:31 > 0:47:32happening now.
0:47:32 > 0:47:35He said you should be setting aside £1 billion to deal
0:47:35 > 0:47:36with the infrastructure.
0:47:36 > 0:47:37Is he wrong?
0:47:37 > 0:47:42Things are happening now. That is the point.
0:47:42 > 0:47:45There's a lot of work that is going on in
0:47:45 > 0:47:49contingency plans in place in the event of a no deal on either
0:47:49 > 0:47:50aviation or maritime trade.
0:47:50 > 0:47:51But that is not the aim.
0:47:51 > 0:47:54We're trying to get a deal and we are optimistic that we
0:47:54 > 0:47:57will be able to do so, because we do not want
0:47:57 > 0:47:58to put all of our eggs in
0:47:58 > 0:47:59one basket.
0:47:59 > 0:48:02There's a whole world out there and the wonderful aspects
0:48:02 > 0:48:04of Brexit is that it enables us to be more
0:48:04 > 0:48:06global in our outlook and it
0:48:06 > 0:48:08gives us the opportunity so we do not have to
0:48:08 > 0:48:11have the tariffs that the EU for example is imposing on
0:48:11 > 0:48:12goods being imported now, like clothes.
0:48:12 > 0:48:14But on the timing of the negotiations, David Davis said
0:48:14 > 0:48:17this week he expects the EU to make a deal
0:48:17 > 0:48:18at the 11th hour.
0:48:18 > 0:48:20That will not be any good for the airline industry,
0:48:20 > 0:48:21is it?
0:48:21 > 0:48:23Passengers will be booking 18 months in advance.
0:48:23 > 0:48:25It would be an absolute disaster.
0:48:25 > 0:48:27Not just for the airline industry, but for all
0:48:27 > 0:48:28businesses, because they plan ahead.
0:48:28 > 0:48:29They make investments ahead.
0:48:29 > 0:48:31They plan now for goods they want to market in
0:48:32 > 0:48:33a year.
0:48:33 > 0:48:35So businesses are putting investment on hold until we get
0:48:35 > 0:48:36clarity.
0:48:36 > 0:48:37And they'll carry on doing that.
0:48:37 > 0:48:40An 11th hour deal would be an absolute disaster for our economy.
0:48:40 > 0:48:41Do you agree, Gareth Johnson?
0:48:41 > 0:48:44Well, we want to move onto the next phase
0:48:44 > 0:48:47of the negotiations, but not only the EU itself,
0:48:47 > 0:48:51but 18 Labour MEPs voted to say no, we will not move onto
0:48:51 > 0:48:52those stages.
0:48:52 > 0:48:54We want progress and we are working hard to achieve
0:48:54 > 0:48:55that.
0:48:55 > 0:48:58The idea that the EU does not want to see planes full of British
0:48:58 > 0:49:01tourists landing at their resorts is nonsense.
0:49:01 > 0:49:03I don't think anyone is saying that, are they?
0:49:03 > 0:49:05No one is saying they don't want them.
0:49:05 > 0:49:07It is just whether we can get all the agreements
0:49:07 > 0:49:09thrashed out in time.
0:49:09 > 0:49:12I think it is fair to say that there are people
0:49:12 > 0:49:13out there that feel that
0:49:13 > 0:49:15there is only doom and gloom when it comes
0:49:15 > 0:49:16to Brexit, simply not the
0:49:16 > 0:49:17case.
0:49:17 > 0:49:22There is quite clearly equal interest in making sure that we have
0:49:22 > 0:49:27systems that work for both our ships and planes and I'm confident that
0:49:27 > 0:49:30we'll be up to put in place with a deal or without a deal.
0:49:30 > 0:49:32We do need a transitional period, because that is
0:49:32 > 0:49:33what everyone is saying.
0:49:33 > 0:49:35That is the thing that will make a difference.
0:49:35 > 0:49:38The Government has blown hot and cold on that,
0:49:38 > 0:49:40but that is the thing that business want in terms of
0:49:40 > 0:49:41giving them some certainty.
0:49:41 > 0:49:43Think we have to leave it there.
0:49:43 > 0:49:46I think we could do a whole show on this but we
0:49:46 > 0:49:48have to move on to our next subject.
0:49:48 > 0:49:51The public sector pay cap has dominated headlines of the last few
0:49:51 > 0:49:52months.
0:49:52 > 0:49:54East Sussex has sparked a pay row of its own.
0:49:54 > 0:49:57Keith Glazier, the leader of the County Council has
0:49:57 > 0:49:59voted to give himself a 37% hike in his allowance.
0:49:59 > 0:50:02His fellow councillors will get a 9% rise.
0:50:02 > 0:50:05It is on the recommendation of an independent panel, but not everyone
0:50:05 > 0:50:06is happy.
0:50:06 > 0:50:08Lib Dem Councillor Sarah Osborne had this to say.
0:50:08 > 0:50:11Contempt for the residents.
0:50:11 > 0:50:14I couldn't vote myself a pay rise, look people
0:50:14 > 0:50:16in the eye and know that
0:50:16 > 0:50:18desperately needed services are going to be cut.
0:50:18 > 0:50:20Let's ask the man himself.
0:50:20 > 0:50:23How do you justify this?
0:50:23 > 0:50:25I've come here today to explain how we got to
0:50:25 > 0:50:27where we are.
0:50:27 > 0:50:31We clearly have an independent panel which comes to the
0:50:31 > 0:50:35council every four years to look at the allowances for councils.
0:50:35 > 0:50:39They found some anomalies, some councils
0:50:39 > 0:50:41were getting telephone lines paid, some were getting broadband paid,
0:50:41 > 0:50:46some are getting a printer paid.
0:50:46 > 0:50:52All of that has now gone.
0:50:52 > 0:50:55There was a general view that we now have a level playing
0:50:55 > 0:50:56field and all councillors will
0:50:56 > 0:50:58get a rise of £1000 which accounts for that.
0:50:58 > 0:51:00But yours is much higher than that.
0:51:00 > 0:51:01It is a 37%...
0:51:01 > 0:51:02I was coming on to that.
0:51:02 > 0:51:05The next thing is that in comparison with all councils across the
0:51:05 > 0:51:09country, the independent panel, not me, have done some work and found
0:51:09 > 0:51:16out that actually council leaders in general get between 2.8 and 3.2
0:51:16 > 0:51:20times the basic allowance.
0:51:20 > 0:51:22And their words not mine, in East Sussex
0:51:22 > 0:51:24it was woefully low.
0:51:24 > 0:51:28So they decided it should go on the very lowest of
0:51:28 > 0:51:35that multiplier, which is 2.8, which did
0:51:35 > 0:51:36the allowance for the leader, and
0:51:36 > 0:51:39this is not just me, it is a position on
0:51:39 > 0:51:40the council, happens to
0:51:40 > 0:51:42be me now, should be paid 2.8 times the basic allowance.
0:51:42 > 0:51:44And that happen to be...
0:51:44 > 0:51:45And that happened to be 9 million.
0:51:45 > 0:51:469 million!
0:51:46 > 0:51:48That would be an increase!
0:51:48 > 0:51:49£9,000.
0:51:49 > 0:51:55And the timing of this is not our choice.
0:51:55 > 0:51:58The timing of this was that this started in March, I said...
0:51:58 > 0:52:00Even now, at a time of austerity, you're
0:52:00 > 0:52:04making £20 million worth of cuts to your council budget, can you see
0:52:04 > 0:52:07that you as leader voting through a pay
0:52:07 > 0:52:09rise that is substantial in
0:52:09 > 0:52:12percentage terms, can you see how that might look to the public?
0:52:12 > 0:52:14Absolutely. And I'm not here to defend it.
0:52:14 > 0:52:16I am telling you a process.
0:52:16 > 0:52:17The council will then...
0:52:17 > 0:52:18But you voted for it.
0:52:18 > 0:52:19I personally...
0:52:19 > 0:52:21Surely you must agree with it.
0:52:21 > 0:52:23I personally voted for it, because why on earth
0:52:23 > 0:52:26would you engage an independent panel if you then ignore their
0:52:26 > 0:52:27recommendations?
0:52:27 > 0:52:30Which is what has happened over the years.
0:52:30 > 0:52:32This vote was carried with one councillor
0:52:32 > 0:52:33voting against.
0:52:33 > 0:52:36At the end of the day, you have two choices, you can
0:52:36 > 0:52:38ignore independent advice, and therefore
0:52:38 > 0:52:43carry on as you are, and
0:52:43 > 0:52:49it would have been a much easier life, I had no idea just how
0:52:49 > 0:52:50disappointed and upset some people would be.
0:52:50 > 0:52:52I can understand...
0:52:52 > 0:52:54What about the staff?
0:52:54 > 0:52:57Because staff at your council have had a 1% pay cap
0:52:57 > 0:53:00for seven years.
0:53:00 > 0:53:04How can you walk in the same corridors and say, I'm
0:53:04 > 0:53:06sorry there's no money for you to have a rise.
0:53:06 > 0:53:08I have no problem with that.
0:53:08 > 0:53:11As you know, we have always supported our staff and whatever has
0:53:11 > 0:53:14been agreed by their negotiators has been agreed.
0:53:14 > 0:53:19I didn't write this report.
0:53:19 > 0:53:22We have two choices, we accepted it or we rejected it.
0:53:22 > 0:53:23And the council accepted it.
0:53:23 > 0:53:25It was not my choice.
0:53:25 > 0:53:28But it was your choice to vote for it.
0:53:28 > 0:53:29Absolutely.
0:53:29 > 0:53:30You could have abstained.
0:53:30 > 0:53:31I could have abstained...
0:53:31 > 0:53:37Why didn't you?
0:53:37 > 0:53:39Because actually I think that that way
0:53:39 > 0:53:40continue with an anomaly that exists.
0:53:40 > 0:53:44It doesn't make it right or wrong, what we have now is a
0:53:44 > 0:53:47recommendation that puts East Sussex in line with most councils in this
0:53:47 > 0:53:48country.
0:53:48 > 0:53:51And the savings that were made by not being members of the
0:53:51 > 0:53:56Local Government pension scheme any more and by not paying phone lines
0:53:56 > 0:54:00etc way outweigh the cost of of the whole of this package.
0:54:00 > 0:54:02Will you be lobbying government to lift the
0:54:02 > 0:54:07public sector pay cap?
0:54:07 > 0:54:08For your staff.
0:54:08 > 0:54:12I've been asked by the unions to do that, I will take it to my group,
0:54:12 > 0:54:14because actually I am only the leader of a
0:54:14 > 0:54:15group and the leader of
0:54:15 > 0:54:20a council, I do nothing on my own, at the end of the day that will be
0:54:20 > 0:54:21considered.
0:54:21 > 0:54:23And in due course a response will come back.
0:54:23 > 0:54:25OK, Maggie Jones, if you were in Keith's position,
0:54:25 > 0:54:27would you have voted for this rise?
0:54:27 > 0:54:29I'm sorry, Keith, but I do understand that, you know, the case
0:54:29 > 0:54:32for having an independent review, but in the current climate,
0:54:32 > 0:54:34when public sector pay has been held down for
0:54:34 > 0:54:37such a long time, I find that very difficult to justify.
0:54:37 > 0:54:40We cannot have two rules, one for the professionals
0:54:40 > 0:54:41and another for the lower paid.
0:54:41 > 0:54:47We have to have...
0:54:47 > 0:54:50If there will be any sense of fairness in this country, we have
0:54:50 > 0:54:53to have one set of rules and therefore I just cannot...
0:54:53 > 0:54:55I would find it very very difficult to
0:54:55 > 0:54:58justify what you have done at the current time.
0:54:59 > 0:55:00And your councillors voted for it.
0:55:00 > 0:55:07I was asked what my view was and, you
0:55:07 > 0:55:11know, I would say this to them.
0:55:11 > 0:55:13We have to have one set of rules.
0:55:13 > 0:55:16And, as you say, there is austerity at the moment and people
0:55:16 > 0:55:19are really struggling to pay their bills, to pay their rent.
0:55:19 > 0:55:20It does not feel right that a particular
0:55:20 > 0:55:23group of staff can vote themselves a pay rise.
0:55:23 > 0:55:25Although of course MPs have had a pay raise recently and
0:55:25 > 0:55:26you're getting one in April.
0:55:26 > 0:55:28Is this right, Gareth?
0:55:28 > 0:55:29Up to £76,000.
0:55:29 > 0:55:31We get 1.3%, which is the average of the
0:55:31 > 0:55:35public sector pay increases, that is why
0:55:35 > 0:55:37what the MPs have been allocated for this year.
0:55:37 > 0:55:40And the last year, it was exactly the same.
0:55:40 > 0:55:42I think there is a wider issue here.
0:55:42 > 0:55:50Although I understand why it is hard for many
0:55:50 > 0:55:54people to swallow a 37% increase, I was a councillor myself, and it is
0:55:54 > 0:55:56increasingly becoming a full-time job, particularly as a leader of a
0:55:56 > 0:55:57County Council.
0:55:57 > 0:56:00The amount of hours that I put in is quite astronomical.
0:56:00 > 0:56:03The remuneration is essential, because the last thing you want is
0:56:03 > 0:56:05to put people off coming into local Government,
0:56:05 > 0:56:07simply because they are unable to afford to do so.
0:56:07 > 0:56:08A question, then.
0:56:08 > 0:56:10Keith gets about half what you do as an MP.
0:56:10 > 0:56:12You are both elected, you both represent a
0:56:12 > 0:56:15large number of people in the South East, is this just
0:56:15 > 0:56:16that we don't value local Government?
0:56:16 > 0:56:17I think...
0:56:17 > 0:56:20I get a pension, Keith does not get a
0:56:20 > 0:56:21pension, for example.
0:56:21 > 0:56:22Therefore there are lots of anomalies like
0:56:22 > 0:56:23that.
0:56:23 > 0:56:26I think we have to be sensitive about this issue,
0:56:26 > 0:56:29particularly what is happening in the public and in the private pay
0:56:29 > 0:56:31sector.
0:56:31 > 0:56:33What we need to do is ensure
0:56:33 > 0:56:36that we have an amount that is not so high that it makes it attractive
0:56:36 > 0:56:40to actually go into the position or too low to put people off.
0:56:40 > 0:56:41But to get that balance right is incredibly
0:56:42 > 0:56:43difficult.
0:56:43 > 0:56:45What about somewhere like the House of Lords where you are not
0:56:45 > 0:56:47really trying to attract people in as such?
0:56:47 > 0:56:48Should your allowances stand?
0:56:48 > 0:56:50It is, what, £300 a day?
0:56:50 > 0:56:52We haven't had a pay rise for seven years.
0:56:52 > 0:56:55But most of you have come from other careers, many have other
0:56:55 > 0:56:56interests.
0:56:56 > 0:56:58Is there an argument to say, perhaps the Lords allowance
0:56:58 > 0:56:59should be lowered?
0:56:59 > 0:57:02We had a review some long time ago, as well, which
0:57:02 > 0:57:05set it at the rate it is now.
0:57:05 > 0:57:07You could in an ideal world look at all
0:57:07 > 0:57:11of these comparators, MPs, councillors,
0:57:11 > 0:57:13peers, that is great as
0:57:13 > 0:57:17long as we do it from top to bottom, and that is not what is happening at
0:57:17 > 0:57:18the moment.
0:57:18 > 0:57:21So you have to include all staff, not just a particular one
0:57:21 > 0:57:23that you are focusing on.
0:57:23 > 0:57:24For elected members, wouldn't it be great
0:57:25 > 0:57:26to have an independent commission?
0:57:26 > 0:57:30So we do not have this anomaly.
0:57:30 > 0:57:32Where we then have to ratify something that has been brought
0:57:32 > 0:57:34forward by an independent commission.
0:57:34 > 0:57:37If you don't want to do it that way, then you are always
0:57:37 > 0:57:39going to be in this really difficult place,
0:57:39 > 0:57:44because there will never be a
0:57:44 > 0:57:46good time to vote yourself a pay rise.
0:57:46 > 0:57:49Never a good time.
0:57:49 > 0:57:53As I said, and think it was said earlier, I do not know any
0:57:53 > 0:58:00counsellor that comes into this for the money.
0:58:00 > 0:58:03You are talking about increasing ways to get more people into the
0:58:04 > 0:58:05council.
0:58:05 > 0:58:08Surely isn't the fact they are all of your meetings in the
0:58:08 > 0:58:09afternoon more difficult?
0:58:09 > 0:58:10Do we?
0:58:10 > 0:58:14At the end of the day, County Councils
0:58:14 > 0:58:16are day time meetings, I'm very pleased that we have a
0:58:16 > 0:58:2019-year-old joining us at the election this year.
0:58:20 > 0:58:22And we have some mid-20s.
0:58:22 > 0:58:24If their employers
0:58:24 > 0:58:26don't pay them for the day they have come off,
0:58:26 > 0:58:28and I would urge people to
0:58:28 > 0:58:29read the report.
0:58:29 > 0:58:31It clearly says we need to do something about the
0:58:31 > 0:58:32gender balance, the age balance.
0:58:32 > 0:58:33We are all...
0:58:33 > 0:58:35Think we have to leave it there.
0:58:35 > 0:58:37Thank you very much for coming in.
0:58:37 > 0:58:40It is now time for a round-up of this week's News in 60
0:58:40 > 0:58:42seconds.
0:58:42 > 0:58:50Emergency response times for the most serious call-outs from
0:58:50 > 0:58:52the South East Coast Ambulance service were
0:58:52 > 0:58:53the worst the NHS has ever
0:58:53 > 0:58:54recorded.
0:58:54 > 0:58:57Last month, the service reached just over 50% of the red one
0:58:57 > 0:58:59call-outs in eight minutes when a target is 75%.
0:58:59 > 0:59:01MP Peter Carl says more needs to be done.
0:59:01 > 0:59:03These figures are utterly shocking.
0:59:03 > 0:59:04Something radical has to happen now.
0:59:04 > 0:59:06I've called a meeting of the Ambulance
0:59:06 > 0:59:09Service and NHS improvement and I will be raising this in the very
0:59:09 > 0:59:12highest levels.
0:59:12 > 0:59:14Medway Council has criticised the Government's new
0:59:14 > 0:59:18housing plans that risk decimating green spaces.
0:59:18 > 0:59:23More than 29,000 homes were earmarked to be built by 2035,
0:59:23 > 0:59:26but the Government has set a new target of 38,000 homes.
0:59:26 > 0:59:30The Government has a small majority and can no longer ride
0:59:30 > 0:59:32roughshod over everyone, as they are seeking
0:59:32 > 0:59:33to do with this.
0:59:33 > 0:59:36Sussex MP Nus Ghani this week called for an emergency
0:59:36 > 0:59:38debate to discuss how misogynistic abuse is undermining politics.
0:59:38 > 0:59:40She tweeted that recent actions of Labour MPs show
0:59:40 > 0:59:46the party's systemic problem with sexism and misogyny.
0:59:47 > 0:59:50Maggie Jones, URA Labour woman, does your party have a problem with
0:59:50 > 0:59:54misogyny?
0:59:54 > 1:00:00-- you are a Labour woman.
1:00:00 > 1:00:02Well, I think all political parties have a problem
1:00:03 > 1:00:03with misogyny.
1:00:03 > 1:00:11But it has been Labour...
1:00:11 > 1:00:14Let's not try and score a cheap political point.
1:00:14 > 1:00:16Because actually, as we know, and as more evidence
1:00:16 > 1:00:18comes to light, this is a problem right across the.
1:00:18 > 1:00:20And, yes, we need to tackle it.
1:00:20 > 1:00:22The evidence that is coming forward is really, really
1:00:22 > 1:00:23scary and worrying.
1:00:23 > 1:00:25But you don't have a particular problem in the
1:00:25 > 1:00:26Labour Party?
1:00:26 > 1:00:29I think anybody will except that it is a problem across
1:00:29 > 1:00:30the board.
1:00:30 > 1:00:32A problem across politics, across all sectors.
1:00:32 > 1:00:34And we do need to stamp it out.
1:00:34 > 1:00:35Gareth Johnson, is this political point
1:00:35 > 1:00:37scoring on the part of Nus Ghani?
1:00:37 > 1:00:38No, I don't think it is.
1:00:38 > 1:00:40I think what she said is she wants a debate
1:00:40 > 1:00:43about the language that was used by one of our colleagues.
1:00:43 > 1:00:45I spoke to Nus about this and I looked at
1:00:46 > 1:00:47her Twitter feed afterwards.
1:00:47 > 1:00:48She had something like 12,000 comments that
1:00:48 > 1:00:50were very, very aggressive in the main towards her.
1:00:50 > 1:00:53Whenever a man chipped in to defend her, they
1:00:53 > 1:00:55didn't get anything like the kind of criticism that she got.
1:00:55 > 1:00:58So I agree that actually the mainstream Labour
1:00:58 > 1:01:01Party, there is not any more than there is an any other political
1:01:01 > 1:01:03party, I think the problem we have in British
1:01:03 > 1:01:04politics at the moment is
1:01:04 > 1:01:07that in the same way as the far right are
1:01:07 > 1:01:08deeply unpleasant, so are
1:01:08 > 1:01:10the far left, and the far left...
1:01:10 > 1:01:12Do you accept that, Maggie Jones?
1:01:12 > 1:01:14I'm sorry, I'm not sure the point that
1:01:14 > 1:01:15is being made.
1:01:15 > 1:01:18I think the point that is being made is that the
1:01:18 > 1:01:21problem is right across the board and that is what we really need to
1:01:21 > 1:01:24tackle and, you know, women and all better people need
1:01:24 > 1:01:26to get together and stamp this bad behaviour out.
1:01:26 > 1:01:28The point I was making is that the abuse that
1:01:28 > 1:01:29Nus Ghani received was
1:01:29 > 1:01:31very much from the far left in the country.
1:01:31 > 1:01:34And that is the point I was trying to make about that.
1:01:34 > 1:01:36But I agree on the central point of that
1:01:36 > 1:01:39there is an issue with this throughout every political party,
1:01:40 > 1:01:41no party can be complacent about it.
1:01:41 > 1:01:43How do we solve it very quickly?
1:01:43 > 1:01:48In a sentence, solve the problem for me.
1:01:48 > 1:01:49 I think
1:01:49 > 1:01:51bringing the evidence to the fore is a start.
1:01:51 > 1:01:53I think people taking action when the perpetrators are
1:01:53 > 1:01:55exposed, they need to be...
1:01:55 > 1:01:56Action needs to be taken against them.
1:01:56 > 1:01:57Gareth Johnson?
1:01:57 > 1:02:04Better vetting procedures, quite frankly.
1:02:04 > 1:02:06For people that will be taking up responsible positions.
1:02:06 > 1:02:07Lovely.
1:02:07 > 1:02:10That is all we have time for from the South East
1:02:10 > 1:02:11this week.
1:02:11 > 1:02:14My thanks to our guests for today, Baroness Maggie Jones and
1:02:14 > 1:02:15Gareth Johnson.
1:02:15 > 1:02:15Natalie will be here next week with all of the political
1:02:16 > 1:02:25With that, it's back to Sarah.
1:02:25 > 1:02:27Now, the much anticipated EU Withdrawal Bill,
1:02:27 > 1:02:31which will transfer EU law into UK law in preparation for Brexit,
1:02:31 > 1:02:35is expected to be debated by MPs later next month.
1:02:35 > 1:02:38Critics have called it a "power grab" as it introduces so-called
1:02:38 > 1:02:41Henry VIII powers for Whitehall to amend some laws without
1:02:41 > 1:02:45consulting parliament, and it faces fierce resistance
1:02:45 > 1:02:48from opposition parties as well as many on the government's
1:02:48 > 1:02:53own backbenches, with 300 amendments and 54 new clauses tabled on it.
1:02:53 > 1:02:57We're joined now by the Conservative MP Anna Soubry who has been a strong
1:02:57 > 1:03:01critic of the legislation.
1:03:01 > 1:03:06Thank you very much for joining us. Before we talk about the withdrawal
1:03:06 > 1:03:10bill, I would like to bring up with you that the Prime Minister has just
1:03:10 > 1:03:14sent a letter to the Commons Speaker John Bercow asking for an
1:03:14 > 1:03:19independent body to be established to investigate claims of sexual
1:03:19 > 1:03:23harassment in Parliament. What are your thoughts on that?A very good
1:03:23 > 1:03:28idea, sounds like a great deal of common sense. I had already this
1:03:28 > 1:03:31morning sent a request to the speaker asking for an urgent
1:03:31 > 1:03:35statement from the Leader of the House as to what could now be done
1:03:35 > 1:03:41to make sure that any complaints actually against anybody working in
1:03:41 > 1:03:44Parliament, to extend the protections that workers throughout
1:03:44 > 1:03:48the rest of businesses and in other workplaces have, they should now be
1:03:48 > 1:03:52extended into Parliament and asking for an urgent statement from the
1:03:52 > 1:03:57leader. Clearly the PM is well onto this and it is a good idea. We have
1:03:57 > 1:04:01to make sure everybody who works in Parliament enjoys exactly the same
1:04:01 > 1:04:06protections as other workers, so I welcome this.This should maybe have
1:04:06 > 1:04:11happened a long time ago. We hear stories of harassment that has been
1:04:11 > 1:04:14going on for decades, but until now it has been difficult to work out
1:04:14 > 1:04:20who you could complain to about it. It is my understanding that my Chief
1:04:20 > 1:04:24Whip and the previous deputy Chief Whip, and Milton, shared that view
1:04:24 > 1:04:29and have shared that view for some time but found it difficult to get
1:04:29 > 1:04:33all the agreement necessary. Anyway, we are where we are and we are
1:04:33 > 1:04:45making that progress, but
1:04:45 > 1:04:48my Chief Whip and the previous deputy Chief Whip wanted this done
1:04:48 > 1:04:50some time ago.That is an interesting point. Let's move on to
1:04:50 > 1:04:52the much anticipated EU withdrawal bill which will finally be debated.
1:04:52 > 1:04:55You have put your name to an amendment which is calling for a
1:04:55 > 1:04:58vote on the final agreement in essence, do you really believe that
1:04:58 > 1:05:01that will be a meaningful both offered to the Commons?Yes, if you
1:05:01 > 1:05:07look at the terms of the amendment, it would deliver exactly that. It
1:05:07 > 1:05:12would give members of Parliament the opportunity to debated and voted on
1:05:12 > 1:05:16it. It would be an effective piece of legislation and would go through
1:05:16 > 1:05:21both houses and should be done. One of the problems with this process is
1:05:21 > 1:05:25that Parliament has been excluded from the sort of debate and
1:05:25 > 1:05:30decisions that would have enabled the government to move forward in
1:05:30 > 1:05:40progress and form a consensus so we get the very best Brexit deal.We
1:05:40 > 1:05:43have been excluded, that has been wrong in my view, but by the end we
1:05:43 > 1:05:45should not be excluded. The government have made it clear that
1:05:45 > 1:05:48whilst there may well be a boat if you win on this amendment, it will
1:05:48 > 1:05:53be a take it or leave it vote. This is a deal you should accept, or
1:05:53 > 1:06:00there will be no deal.If you look at the amendment we put forward
1:06:00 > 1:06:03there will be other alternatives. This is all hypothetical because we
1:06:03 > 1:06:07want a good deal and it is difficult to see that the government would not
1:06:07 > 1:06:13bring a good deal to the House in any event. But this is hypothetical,
1:06:13 > 1:06:18it would mean Parliament would say to government, go back and seek an
1:06:18 > 1:06:24extension as we know it is there in Article 50. It is perfectly possible
1:06:24 > 1:06:28with the agreement of the other members of the EU to seek an
1:06:28 > 1:06:32extension so we continue the negotiations and we get a deal that
1:06:32 > 1:06:36is good for our country. It keeps all options open and that is the
1:06:36 > 1:06:41most important thing.How many Conservative MPs really would take
1:06:41 > 1:06:46that option in those circumstances? It is only if you get enough votes
1:06:46 > 1:06:49that you would be able to ask the government to go back and
1:06:49 > 1:06:59re-negotiate.
1:07:02 > 1:07:06Have you for that?For give me, but you are jumping way down the line. I
1:07:06 > 1:07:08am talking about an amendment that keeps the options open. I am not
1:07:08 > 1:07:11speculating as to what would happen, I am not going there, it is far too
1:07:11 > 1:07:15speculative. Let's get this bill in good shape. The principle of this
1:07:15 > 1:07:20bill is right and we need to put into British domestic law existing
1:07:20 > 1:07:25EU laws and regulations into our substantive law. We all agree that
1:07:25 > 1:07:30must happen. It is the means by which we do it that causes problems
1:07:30 > 1:07:37and we have this argument and debate about what we call the endgame.I am
1:07:37 > 1:07:40sure we will talk about this many more times before we get to that
1:07:40 > 1:07:46vote. I will turn to our panel of political experts. Listening to the
1:07:46 > 1:07:52tone of what the remainders are trying to achieve with the EU
1:07:52 > 1:07:57withdrawal bill, will be achieved? You can hear that tussled there,
1:07:57 > 1:08:02they want the maximum space and room for Parliament to have a say. But
1:08:02 > 1:08:08they have to be careful. The reason is that clock is ticking and if you
1:08:08 > 1:08:14have a situation which may seem to be more interested in finding
1:08:14 > 1:08:18different things to object to and saying no to, it is not getting a
1:08:18 > 1:08:22good deal and it does not look good for the remainders in this argument
1:08:22 > 1:08:27and they will have to come through with their proposals. I do not mind
1:08:27 > 1:08:30Parliament saying it should have a big say, but what do you do if
1:08:30 > 1:08:36Parliament says this is not good enough? The government must simply
1:08:36 > 1:08:42say, I am sorry we have run out of time. The 27 will say they cannot be
1:08:42 > 1:08:46bothered to have another round either. They have to be strong, but
1:08:46 > 1:08:50realistic about what their role in this is.Do you think the people
1:08:50 > 1:08:55putting this amendment who say they want a binding vote in parliament
1:08:55 > 1:08:59are doing it because they think Parliament should have a say or
1:08:59 > 1:09:04because they want to obstruct it? They do not think people should have
1:09:04 > 1:09:08a say in the first place, they think people got it wrong, so they need
1:09:08 > 1:09:16more clever people than the voters to have final say.Or they believed
1:09:16 > 1:09:19taking back control means Parliament should have the final say.
1:09:19 > 1:09:22Parliament said they would like to give that decision back to the
1:09:22 > 1:09:28people. This is the issue. It seems to me that people like Anna Soubry
1:09:28 > 1:09:32are trying to delay of the transition period a bit longer.
1:09:32 > 1:09:37These negotiations will take as long as they have got. The EU will take
1:09:37 > 1:09:45it to the wire and if we do not get a decent deal, and one of the
1:09:45 > 1:09:48reasons is the level of incompetence on this government's part I have to
1:09:48 > 1:09:53say and the other one will be the people who want to remain
1:09:53 > 1:09:59undermining them. They undermined the government at every single stage
1:09:59 > 1:10:03and they undermine Britain's interests.It is the timing of all
1:10:03 > 1:10:06of this that is crucial and whether the government can get a deal in
1:10:06 > 1:10:12time.There will be a meaningful vote, whether it is an shined in
1:10:12 > 1:10:17legislation or not, there cannot be an historic development as big as
1:10:17 > 1:10:22this without Parliament having a meaningful vote. I meaningful,
1:10:22 > 1:10:27having the power to either stop it or endorse it. You cannot have a
1:10:27 > 1:10:30government doing something like this with no vote in the House of
1:10:30 > 1:10:37commons. When you say it will go to the last minute I completely agree,
1:10:37 > 1:10:42but last-minute in reality means next summer. It has got to get
1:10:42 > 1:10:45through the European Parliament and the Westminster Parliament and quite
1:10:45 > 1:10:52a few others as well.The trouble with invoking Parliament is if it is
1:10:52 > 1:10:57driven solely by remain, I would love to say what people in the
1:10:57 > 1:11:04league side think. I disagree with Julia, I do not think you could say
1:11:04 > 1:11:08people had their say and the terms with which we leave are left open
1:11:08 > 1:11:12and only the government should have a say in it, Parliament clearly
1:11:12 > 1:11:20should have a say in it.Do we want a good deal or not?It does not mean
1:11:20 > 1:11:26anything if you do not do it by next summer I suggest.Does that leave
1:11:26 > 1:11:30Parliament any room for changing the deal or is it simply take it or
1:11:30 > 1:11:35leave it?It will have to have that rule because it cannot simply be
1:11:35 > 1:11:38another of these binary votes were you accept the deal or no Deal.
1:11:38 > 1:11:44There has to be some space.How can a few MPs in the House of Commons
1:11:44 > 1:11:50change a deal that has been agreed by the member states?Because of the
1:11:50 > 1:11:55sequence, a huge if by the way, if they vote down the deal that the
1:11:55 > 1:11:59government has negotiated, the government will have to re-negotiate
1:11:59 > 1:12:03or there will have to be an election. This will be a moment of
1:12:03 > 1:12:05huge crisis, our government not getting through its much topped
1:12:05 > 1:12:15about...It is a mini Catalonia.I think it would be as big as
1:12:15 > 1:12:18Catalonia, but with the implication that there would have to be a
1:12:18 > 1:12:21practical change in the deal because if Parliament has not supported
1:12:21 > 1:12:27it...It is a remain fantasy that this deal can be put off and off
1:12:27 > 1:12:31until they get something that is as close to remaining as they can
1:12:31 > 1:12:36possibly get. I am very much for trying to get the best and avoiding
1:12:36 > 1:12:43the worst, but there is an unreality to that position if you keep trying
1:12:43 > 1:12:49to do it again and again, at some point people will want clarity.I
1:12:49 > 1:12:54labour putting forward a realistic proposition?I thought Hilary Benn
1:12:54 > 1:12:59was very realistic this morning, I wish he was more in the driving seat
1:12:59 > 1:13:04of Labour policy. He made clear where he disagreed and he made clear
1:13:04 > 1:13:07where he thought the negotiations had gone off track or were bogged
1:13:07 > 1:13:15down. I worry a bit about the Labour position being incoherent, but that
1:13:15 > 1:13:19is kept that way by the present leadership because as far as they
1:13:19 > 1:13:23are concerned the government is suffering enough, why should they
1:13:23 > 1:13:28have a position? Hilary Benn said we needed to have clarity about the
1:13:28 > 1:13:32timetable. It is like reading an insurance contract and finding the
1:13:32 > 1:13:35bit where you might get away with it. That is not a policy.
1:13:35 > 1:13:37That is not a policy.
1:13:37 > 1:13:39That's all for today.
1:13:39 > 1:13:41Join me again next Sunday at 11 here on BBC One.
1:13:41 > 1:13:46Until then, bye bye.