05/11/2017

0:00:37 > 0:00:39Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

0:00:39 > 0:00:41I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:41 > 0:00:44And this is your guide to everything that's happening in the world

0:00:44 > 0:00:45of politics this Sunday morning.

0:00:45 > 0:00:48On today's show:

0:00:48 > 0:00:51Theresa May's right-hand man Damian Green has denied claims that

0:00:51 > 0:00:57police found pornography on a computer in his office in 2008.

0:00:57 > 0:01:00He says the allegations by a former police chief are "political smears."

0:01:00 > 0:01:03With claims of sexual harassment at Westminster growing by the day,

0:01:03 > 0:01:06can either Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get

0:01:06 > 0:01:07to grips with a scandal threatening to engulf

0:01:07 > 0:01:12the entire political class?

0:01:12 > 0:01:18We'll ask a minister and senior member of the Shadow Cabinet.

0:01:18 > 0:01:25And some on the left of politics have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:25 > 0:01:26And in the South East: have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:26 > 0:01:28Impossible and nonsensical - that's the reaction

0:01:28 > 0:01:30from Conservative MPs and council leaders to their own government's

0:01:30 > 0:01:31new housing targets.

0:01:31 > 0:01:32So how do we solve the crisis?

0:01:45 > 0:01:46So there's plenty of explosive political news

0:01:46 > 0:01:49to get you in the mood for bonfire night -

0:01:49 > 0:01:51and with me as usual, three journalists who know quite

0:01:51 > 0:01:54a bit about parliamentary plots - if rather less about

0:01:54 > 0:01:55gunpowder and treason.

0:01:55 > 0:01:57It's Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

0:01:57 > 0:02:00So what are the big political stories making the news this Sunday?

0:02:00 > 0:02:08Well, the papers are brimming with further allegations against MPs

0:02:08 > 0:02:11in the sexual harassment scandal, which according to one newspaper has

0:02:11 > 0:02:12left Westminster frozen in fear.

0:02:12 > 0:02:14First Secretary of State Damian Green, already under

0:02:14 > 0:02:16investigation over allegations - which he strongly denies -

0:02:16 > 0:02:19of propositioning a female activist, is the subject of new claims that

0:02:19 > 0:02:21police discovered pornography on a computer in his Westminster

0:02:21 > 0:02:23office in 2008.

0:02:23 > 0:02:25Mr Green denies the allegation, made by former senior

0:02:25 > 0:02:27police officer Bob Quick, saying it is "completely untrue,"

0:02:27 > 0:02:36and adding that he is the victim of disreputable "political smears."

0:02:36 > 0:02:38Michael Fallon, who resigned as Defence Secretary this week

0:02:38 > 0:02:40over his past behaviour, is also subject to fresh claims

0:02:40 > 0:02:46he lunged at a female journalist in 2003 after a lunch.

0:02:46 > 0:02:48Labour is facing questions over its handling of sexual

0:02:48 > 0:02:55misconduct allegations.

0:02:55 > 0:02:58This morning Shadow Cabinet minister Dawn Butler refused to be drawn

0:02:58 > 0:03:00on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew about alleged misconduct by MP

0:03:00 > 0:03:08Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted to the Shadow Cabinet.

0:03:08 > 0:03:11And there is a reminder that normal political life goes on,

0:03:11 > 0:03:14with reports that the Cabinet has agreed to put housing at the heart

0:03:14 > 0:03:15of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget.

0:03:15 > 0:03:17Well, let's hear from Home Secretary Amber Rudd now -

0:03:17 > 0:03:20she was on the Andrew Marr Show earlier talking about the claims

0:03:20 > 0:03:23against her Cabinet colleague Damian Green.

0:03:23 > 0:03:29Absolutely not. I think it is something that will take place in

0:03:29 > 0:03:34terms of clearing out Westminster of that sort of behaviour, and I think

0:03:34 > 0:03:36that Westminster afterwards, including the Government, will be

0:03:36 > 0:03:45better for it. When we are confident that men and women can work any

0:03:45 > 0:03:47respectful environment and people on the receiving end of abuse of power

0:03:47 > 0:03:54can come forward. That will be a positive thing.

0:03:54 > 0:03:58Let's see what our panel make of this fairly explosive week. Good

0:03:58 > 0:04:05morning to all of you. Starting with you, Steve. Not a party political

0:04:05 > 0:04:08issue but the Tories are in Government. How much harder for them

0:04:08 > 0:04:13is it an Labour?Always harder when you are in Government because it

0:04:13 > 0:04:16makes governing almost impossible. And the wider context is a Prime

0:04:16 > 0:04:19Minister who lost her overall majority a few months ago and

0:04:19 > 0:04:23actually that is the context of everything. When you are having to

0:04:23 > 0:04:26deal with the scandal of such unpredictability, where the

0:04:26 > 0:04:37terms are so imprecise, it is a "lunge", a resignation issue, to use

0:04:37 > 0:04:41that term, and nightmare. I don't think it is fatal. Scandals rarely

0:04:41 > 0:04:47bring down governments, but it makes governing for Theresa May a form of

0:04:47 > 0:04:50political health.Isabel Oakeshott, Damian Green has denied all

0:04:50 > 0:04:54allegations made against him, but there are more this morning. He is

0:04:54 > 0:04:59being investigated by the Cabinet Office at the moment. If Theresa May

0:04:59 > 0:05:02were to effectively lose her Deputy Prime Minister, has serious without

0:05:02 > 0:05:07the?I think very serious indeed. I think it is very significant and

0:05:07 > 0:05:11strange he was not defended in the Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that

0:05:11 > 0:05:15clip we saw today, she didn't say I am certain he will survive, and I am

0:05:15 > 0:05:19beginning to feel that Damian may not survive this. We don't know

0:05:19 > 0:05:23whether it is the last of the allegations that may come out in

0:05:23 > 0:05:27relation to him. It seems to me that the allegations were previously of a

0:05:27 > 0:05:33rather minor order, but this seems to have escalated. And I think one

0:05:33 > 0:05:36of the big problems for Theresa May, and there are the many at the

0:05:36 > 0:05:42moment, for months we have been saying that this Government has no

0:05:42 > 0:05:45bandwidth to do anything except Brexit and right now she can't even

0:05:45 > 0:05:49do Brexit. What is the point of it all?It is important to make clear

0:05:49 > 0:05:53not only that Damian Green denies all of these allegations, but the

0:05:53 > 0:05:59computer mentioned was in a shared office so there is no reason it

0:05:59 > 0:06:03would definitely be his # No guarantee it would definitely

0:06:03 > 0:06:15be his. But we have had two MPs on television this morning, Anna

0:06:15 > 0:06:20Soubry, saying he should stand down. There is an awful lot going on here.

0:06:20 > 0:06:26It is not just a pretty awful sexual harassment scandal. There are also

0:06:26 > 0:06:30without a doubt MPs, police officers, going about settling

0:06:30 > 0:06:35scores. For me I have to say for our pretty discredited police officer

0:06:35 > 0:06:38Bob Quick, to make accusations against serving Cabinet minister, to

0:06:38 > 0:06:46suggest he should go for extreme pornography on computers he may or

0:06:46 > 0:06:49may not have known, it may be extremely distasteful but it is

0:06:49 > 0:06:52alarming for democracy to have ex-police officers like this coming

0:06:52 > 0:06:56in and trying to play with democracy. Some politicians are also

0:06:56 > 0:06:59meeting claims, some for the right reasons to get the allegations out

0:06:59 > 0:07:02there and so on but others for their own agendas and all of this puts the

0:07:02 > 0:07:06Prime Minister in an unbelievably hard situation. I agree with Steve

0:07:06 > 0:07:10and Isabel, she desperately needs two show leadership in all this, but

0:07:10 > 0:07:13every way she could turn there are incredible downfalls, people blaming

0:07:13 > 0:07:17her for trying to get to the bottom of all this. It is very people who

0:07:17 > 0:07:22she is relying on for her leadership, the very Tory MPs the

0:07:22 > 0:07:25support she can't lose.It is not just the Tory party and of course

0:07:25 > 0:07:29Jeremy Corbyn will be making a speech later today where this will

0:07:29 > 0:07:32inevitably and there are accusations about how the senior leadership in

0:07:32 > 0:07:38the Labour Party have handled this. What about that situation?Yes, but

0:07:38 > 0:07:40the Government is much harder because you are meant to be doing

0:07:40 > 0:07:4410,000 other things at the same time. This is about a deregulated

0:07:44 > 0:07:48work environment. For all those who say, I hate the way Britain is too

0:07:48 > 0:07:50regulated, this is what happens in a deregulated work environment. The

0:07:50 > 0:08:00House of Commons has no HR or whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs

0:08:00 > 0:08:03actually don't have much power but they do have power over who the

0:08:03 > 0:08:07point and how to treat them. I think this is the way forward in terms of

0:08:07 > 0:08:10the practical outcome, but it is across the political spectrum.But

0:08:10 > 0:08:16it is unclear what it will be. Can the party sort this out?I'm not

0:08:16 > 0:08:19sure I entirely agree, Steve, you cannot regulate all human

0:08:19 > 0:08:23interaction and a lot of these stories have been about interactions

0:08:23 > 0:08:28between politicians and journalists alike, who have gone out for lunch,

0:08:28 > 0:08:33chosen to drink, presumably to create an informal atmosphere, and

0:08:33 > 0:08:38at what point is a step towards somebody to say goodbye, a peck on

0:08:38 > 0:08:43the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You can't regulate that sort of thing.

0:08:43 > 0:08:48Throughout the programme will come back to some of these things and how

0:08:48 > 0:08:50they might be regulated.

0:08:50 > 0:08:52Now, the Home Secretary has also today been talking

0:08:52 > 0:08:54about what she calls the "moral duty" of social media companies

0:08:54 > 0:08:57to stop child sexual exploitation, ahead of a meeting with her US

0:08:57 > 0:08:58counterparts this week.

0:08:58 > 0:09:01We're joined now by the Home Office minister Sarah Newton -

0:09:01 > 0:09:03she's in our Truro studio.

0:09:03 > 0:09:06Thanks very much for coming in to speak the first night. I want to

0:09:06 > 0:09:09talk to you about the Government's efforts to tackle child pornography,

0:09:09 > 0:09:13but let's pick up on some of the sexual harassment issues at

0:09:13 > 0:09:16Westminster first. Two of your parliamentary colleagues this

0:09:16 > 0:09:19morning saying they think the first Secretary of State Damian Green

0:09:19 > 0:09:26should step down whilst being investigated. Do you agree?Look, he

0:09:26 > 0:09:32has vigorously denied these accusations, and the Cabinet Office

0:09:32 > 0:09:37is investigating these accusations, so we do have processes for when

0:09:37 > 0:09:39ministers have these accusations made against them so they are

0:09:39 > 0:09:44properly investigated. And that is what is going on at the moment.Is

0:09:44 > 0:09:49that process people can be confident in? He is effectively being

0:09:49 > 0:09:55investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one of his colleagues.This is a tried

0:09:55 > 0:09:59and tested process that has stood the test of time, and it is

0:09:59 > 0:10:03important...Has it? Surely what we are learning is it has not stood the

0:10:03 > 0:10:06test of time and that in fact allegations like this have been

0:10:06 > 0:10:10swept under the carpet and ignored for years and years in Westminster,

0:10:10 > 0:10:14exactly what we are learning right now.I think you are conflating two

0:10:14 > 0:10:18things they are, and what we really do need to do is look at the whole

0:10:18 > 0:10:22range of allegations people have been making, and make sure

0:10:22 > 0:10:26Parliament is a safe place for people to work, a respectful

0:10:26 > 0:10:32environment for people who have been subjected to harassment or bullying

0:10:32 > 0:10:34or inappropriate behaviour, so that they feel confident to come forward

0:10:34 > 0:10:38knowing they will be listened to, that there will be an open and

0:10:38 > 0:10:41transparent and fair to everyone concerned process for getting to the

0:10:41 > 0:10:45bottom of it, and that is exactly what the Prime Minister and the

0:10:45 > 0:10:51Leader of the Cows have set out, Prime Minister's meeting with all

0:10:51 > 0:10:56the leaders of the parties tomorrow to set out a proper process so we

0:10:56 > 0:11:04can modernise the work environment at Westminster -- leader of the

0:11:04 > 0:11:08House have set out.You think Damian Green should remain in the Cabinet

0:11:08 > 0:11:13well being investigated?That will be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he

0:11:13 > 0:11:17thinks the misdemeanours have a basis, that he should stand aside,

0:11:17 > 0:11:23that will be the recommendation. I will not second the inquiry on what

0:11:23 > 0:11:27Sir Jeremy Heywood finds.You were in the Whips' Office yourself for a

0:11:27 > 0:11:31year. And much has been said this week of the whips being in receipt

0:11:31 > 0:11:35of a lot of information about bad behaviour, and instead of reporting

0:11:35 > 0:11:39it to authorities they were using it as ammunition. Was that your

0:11:39 > 0:11:45experience?Absolutely not. I was at the Whips' Office up to 2015 and,

0:11:45 > 0:11:48yes, I heard about the rumours of a black spreadsheet, and I can

0:11:48 > 0:11:52certainly say I never saw such a thing. How I went about my business

0:11:52 > 0:11:57as a whip is really twofold. It is quite a technical job in many ways,

0:11:57 > 0:12:03about of the Government through the House, working with the House

0:12:03 > 0:12:07authorities, the opposition. Also... Did you ever hear rumours of these

0:12:07 > 0:12:15people's bad behaviour?Sorry?Did you ever hear rumours of MPs

0:12:15 > 0:12:18misbehaving, sexual harassment, allegations are that?If anybody had

0:12:18 > 0:12:22brought a complaint to me about the behaviour of one of the MPs who were

0:12:22 > 0:12:27in my flock, I would take that really seriously, but bull-mac, that

0:12:27 > 0:12:30didn't happen.You said nobody brought you a complaint. Did you

0:12:30 > 0:12:37hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't happen.About the members of my

0:12:37 > 0:12:40flock? Absolutely not.Is that the MPs you were specifically in charge

0:12:40 > 0:12:47of?I did not have that experience at all.Let's move on and talk about

0:12:47 > 0:12:51the Home Secretary's trip to Washington this week, where she will

0:12:51 > 0:12:54urge tech companies to go further and faster on online child abuse. We

0:12:54 > 0:12:58have heard a lot from this Government urging these companies to

0:12:58 > 0:13:02do something. One specific ideas of what they could do, do you have a

0:13:02 > 0:13:05clear idea of what you are asking from tech companies?Absolutely

0:13:05 > 0:13:11right. As you know, this horrendous crime of child sexual exploitation

0:13:11 > 0:13:16and grooming is constantly evolving as the opportunities for the

0:13:16 > 0:13:20perpetrators arise. They are now using live streaming, different

0:13:20 > 0:13:25sorts of platforms, which are largely controlled by the big

0:13:25 > 0:13:29companies in America. What we really want them to do is to step up and

0:13:29 > 0:13:34use their huge expertise, used the huge money they have got, to help

0:13:34 > 0:13:38find technological solutions to read their sites and rid the opportunity

0:13:38 > 0:13:41of these paedophiles to be able to groom young people. We need the

0:13:41 > 0:13:49politicians in America to exert pressure, as well as other

0:13:49 > 0:13:52companies, because these are global problems. We are not going to solve

0:13:52 > 0:13:56this problem in the UK alone. We have made a lot of progress, working

0:13:56 > 0:14:00with Facebook and other companies as well, but we really need to keep one

0:14:00 > 0:14:05step ahead of the technology, one step ahead of the perpetrators, who

0:14:05 > 0:14:10are using these opportunities to commit horrendous crimes.

0:14:10 > 0:14:14It was back in 2014 Theresa May for the Internet companies to do more in

0:14:14 > 0:14:18terms of child abuse online and we have not seen significant action,

0:14:18 > 0:14:21and it does not appear these kind of calls from the Government actually

0:14:21 > 0:14:27make difference. Well, at the moment we are seeing

0:14:27 > 0:14:32the police being able to make about 400 arrests per month, about 500

0:14:32 > 0:14:36children being safeguarded. The Government itself is investing a lot

0:14:36 > 0:14:42of money in new technology like the project Arachnid, and making sure

0:14:42 > 0:14:45the police have the specialist resources they need to go

0:14:45 > 0:14:48undercover, and absolutely find these perpetrators and bring them to

0:14:48 > 0:14:51justice, but we do need to constantly have the engagement and

0:14:51 > 0:14:56support of the companies themselves to invest in further technologies to

0:14:56 > 0:14:59prevent this from happening. As you say, we have made progress but we

0:14:59 > 0:15:04need to see yet more.Sarah Newton, thank you very much for speaking to

0:15:04 > 0:15:06us today.

0:15:06 > 0:15:07Michael Fallon's decision to resign this week,

0:15:07 > 0:15:12saying his past conduct with women fell short of the standard expected

0:15:12 > 0:15:15of the Armed Forces, led to something of a minor reshuffle.

0:15:15 > 0:15:17And the Prime Minister took Westminster by surprise

0:15:17 > 0:15:19when she announced his replacement, former Chief Whip and relative

0:15:19 > 0:15:21newcomer to the ministerial ranks, Gavin Williamson.

0:15:21 > 0:15:26Here he is speaking on the day of his appointment.

0:15:26 > 0:15:28It's an immense privilege to have been appointed Secretary

0:15:28 > 0:15:31of State for Defence, and what we need to be doing

0:15:31 > 0:15:33is continuing to focus on countering Daesh,

0:15:33 > 0:15:35making sure that our national security is at the forefront

0:15:35 > 0:15:38of everything that we do, and we have some of the world's

0:15:38 > 0:15:41greatest armed services, and it's such a privilege to be able

0:15:41 > 0:15:47to work with them.

0:15:47 > 0:15:50Gavin Williamson, who you saw there, arrives at the Ministry of Defence

0:15:50 > 0:15:52at a challenging time for UK defence.

0:15:52 > 0:15:53The Government has promised an above-inflation increase

0:15:53 > 0:15:55in spending every year but the Ministry of Defence

0:15:55 > 0:15:58is already committed to finding £20 billion of savings

0:15:58 > 0:15:59over the next ten years.

0:15:59 > 0:16:01The Cabinet Office is currently conducting a security review

0:16:01 > 0:16:04which will look at military capabilities and funding up to 2022,

0:16:04 > 0:16:05while there are continuing reports of shortages

0:16:05 > 0:16:10of manpower and equipment.

0:16:10 > 0:16:12And if Labour were to win power, questions persist over

0:16:12 > 0:16:15what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership would mean for defence budget

0:16:15 > 0:16:17and the traditional cornerstones of UK defence policy

0:16:17 > 0:16:18like Trident and Nato.

0:16:18 > 0:16:20Well we're joined now by the Shadow Defence

0:16:20 > 0:16:23secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:23 > 0:16:25Well we're joined now by the Shadow Defence

0:16:25 > 0:16:31secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:31 > 0:16:35Let's talk about defence spending first. Would Labour commit to the

0:16:35 > 0:16:39same thing this Government has which is an above inflation increase in

0:16:39 > 0:16:43spending every year?We've been absolutely clear about that. First

0:16:43 > 0:16:48and foremost we'd meet our commitment of spending at least 2%

0:16:48 > 0:16:55of GDP on defence as is our Nato commitment and we would match the

0:16:55 > 0:16:58Government's year-on-year 0.5% increase above inflation. This is

0:16:58 > 0:17:01really important. Labour's always had a good strong track record of

0:17:01 > 0:17:05spending on defence.Jeremy Corbyn seems to have a different view.

0:17:05 > 0:17:10Speaking at a protest in 2010 he said Labour wanted to fight all the

0:17:10 > 0:17:14cuts except those in the Armed Forces where we want to see a few

0:17:14 > 0:17:19more cuts taking place. He doesn't seem committed to defence spending?

0:17:19 > 0:17:23In the manifesto for this year's election, 2017, he and John

0:17:23 > 0:17:27McDonnell have been absolutely clear we support the exact words I've been

0:17:27 > 0:17:33using now, at least 2% of the spend of GDP spent on defence.Jeremy

0:17:33 > 0:17:37Corbyn's changed his mind on that? He's been very clear about that and

0:17:37 > 0:17:42it was in our manifesto this year. You criticised the Government on

0:17:42 > 0:17:47whether they meet their 2% commitment on defence. You saying

0:17:47 > 0:17:50they were fiddling the figures because they were including

0:17:50 > 0:17:56pensions. You would strip that out and snake sure there's 2% spending

0:17:56 > 0:17:59on defence which doesn't include pensions?Technically, the

0:17:59 > 0:18:01Government would argue you are allowed to include pensions by the

0:18:01 > 0:18:07Nato rules. But we've been very clear, really, when you're talking

0:18:07 > 0:18:11about defence spending it should mean defence. When you look at the

0:18:11 > 0:18:16last year of the Labour Government we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are

0:18:16 > 0:18:22very much committed to looking at what we need in our defence budget

0:18:22 > 0:18:26and looking to the problems they have now where they can't meet the

0:18:26 > 0:18:30commitments they've made.You would sprip pensions out of those figures.

0:18:30 > 0:18:36In order to live up to these commitments you have to find an

0:18:36 > 0:18:40extra billion for the defence budgets because we're not

0:18:40 > 0:18:43calculating pensions anymore?John McDonnell is well aware of what they

0:18:43 > 0:18:48are doing. Putting in the conflict resolution money which Gordon Brown

0:18:48 > 0:18:53kept separate. He is well aware of the figures and the difficulties. We

0:18:53 > 0:18:57are certainly very committed to a defence budget that really does make

0:18:57 > 0:19:02a difference.I'm not clear whether you're telling me it will be 2% 69

0:19:02 > 0:19:08spending, excluding pensions?We want it to be 2% of GDP as in the

0:19:08 > 0:19:12way Labour always calculate it had up until 2010, not including

0:19:12 > 0:19:16pensions.A significant increase in military spending?We are talking

0:19:16 > 0:19:21about making sure the spending we need is there because, at the

0:19:21 > 0:19:24current situation, we have with the current Government, they are

0:19:24 > 0:19:29overstretched. Even the very caution National Audit Office says they are

0:19:29 > 0:19:35at immense risk of not being able to meet the expenditure commitment the

0:19:35 > 0:19:40they have made. Others talk about a black hole. You mentioned it that

0:19:40 > 0:19:47£20 billion. There is a real issue we have to address.To you know what

0:19:47 > 0:19:51it will cost, how muchedingsal funds will have to be found?We have to

0:19:51 > 0:19:57rook at what are the needs at the time as well as the facts we want to

0:19:57 > 0:20:01make that 2% commitment not including things which have just

0:20:01 > 0:20:05been brushed in now by the Conservative Government.Let's move

0:20:05 > 0:20:11on to a different aspect of defence. There is a treaty banning nuclear

0:20:11 > 0:20:14weapons opened at the UN for signatories. 122 countries have

0:20:14 > 0:20:20already signed it. Would an incoming Labour Government sign that treaty?

0:20:20 > 0:20:23The important point here is there was an Is inned opportunity for

0:20:23 > 0:20:28there to be observers from the UK. There should have been at that

0:20:28 > 0:20:33treaty talks.That doesn't change the calculation whether or not an

0:20:33 > 0:20:40incoming Labour Government would sign that treaty?We are committed

0:20:40 > 0:20:45to a strong multi-lateral disarming programme. That's what we've seen

0:20:45 > 0:20:49missing.This is a multilateral approach to try to get rid of

0:20:49 > 0:20:53nuclear weapons. What you say you want. Would a Labour Government sign

0:20:53 > 0:20:58that treaty?You we have to look at how you go about things. We need toe

0:20:58 > 0:21:01somebody clear we want to de-escalate tensions across the

0:21:01 > 0:21:06world. Work with other nuclear partners to help stop the

0:21:06 > 0:21:10proliferation of nuclear weapons. We want to work with those countries

0:21:10 > 0:21:15who feel very strongly about the treaty so we can work together. We

0:21:15 > 0:21:22have to do that in a multilateral framework.This is a multi-lateral

0:21:22 > 0:21:26disarmament framework. Under the auspice Is of the UN disto see how

0:21:26 > 0:21:29else it could be organised. This is a great opportunity for you, who

0:21:29 > 0:21:35have been a lifelong campaigner for disarmament.ment Labour Government

0:21:35 > 0:21:40will be the first nuclear power to do so, sign it and lead the way.We

0:21:40 > 0:21:45need to use our position to be responsible and call for responsible

0:21:45 > 0:21:48multi-lateral disarmamentment there was progress made on this in the

0:21:48 > 0:21:51eighties and nineties with considerable amount of are heads put

0:21:51 > 0:21:55to one side and destroyed. We need to get back on the front foot there.

0:21:55 > 0:21:58I don't see any presence by the UK Government at the moment on that

0:21:58 > 0:22:03aagain da. It is not helpful for the nukes leer nations to be separated

0:22:03 > 0:22:09from the non-nuclear nation in the these debates.That's why I don't

0:22:09 > 0:22:13understand why you're not taking the opportunity to say a Labour

0:22:13 > 0:22:17Government would Take The Stand.We should wok together and we should

0:22:17 > 0:22:22use our position as a nuclear power to work for a multilateral

0:22:22 > 0:22:26disarmament programme.You were very clear in your manifesto that the

0:22:26 > 0:22:30Labour Party would keep Trident for the meantime.Abs will yously.We

0:22:30 > 0:22:33know throughout his life, Jeremy Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of

0:22:33 > 0:22:40it. He signed up to the manifesto saying Trident would stay. Has he

0:22:40 > 0:22:45changed his minds?The important thing is that was a manifesto

0:22:45 > 0:22:49Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to. We stood on it in 2017 because that

0:22:49 > 0:22:54is the Labour Party position. Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour

0:22:54 > 0:22:57Leader really believes in that position?He believes in democracy

0:22:57 > 0:23:00in the party. That is the Labour Party position. I don't see that

0:23:00 > 0:23:04position changing at all. He has said very clearly that he accepts

0:23:04 > 0:23:08that is our Labour Party position. And that is the manifesto we've

0:23:08 > 0:23:13stood on and will continue to stand on.I'll need to ask questions about

0:23:13 > 0:23:18sexual harassment in Westminster. It is as much as inissue for the Labour

0:23:18 > 0:23:22Party as the Conservative. It was not clear listening to Dawn Butler,

0:23:22 > 0:23:25your colleague on The Andrew Marr Show this morning, she was asked

0:23:25 > 0:23:29whether or not the leadership knew about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins.

0:23:29 > 0:23:34Do you know?I absolutely do not know at this moment in time. That's

0:23:34 > 0:23:36why there has to be an investigation. It is extremely

0:23:36 > 0:23:41important to find out what the allegations were, exactly what

0:23:41 > 0:23:46happened, who was told and who told what to whom. Then we will be in a

0:23:46 > 0:23:50position to see what the situation is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins

0:23:50 > 0:23:57has been suspended which is the cricket thing to do.Rosie Winterton

0:23:57 > 0:24:02has been outspoken about what she let the leadership know. If it is

0:24:02 > 0:24:05the case the leadership did know about these allegations should he

0:24:05 > 0:24:09have been put into the Shadow Cabinet?The real question is who

0:24:09 > 0:24:15did know what when.But what I'm asking you is...I am anot going to

0:24:15 > 0:24:20speculate whether there was an if or whatever. We need to know how that

0:24:20 > 0:24:24information was transmitted. Was it put in writing. What it made clear,

0:24:24 > 0:24:28who was told what, when. Until we have a full investigation it would

0:24:28 > 0:24:32be inappropriate to comment. What is absolute lie clear, we need to get

0:24:32 > 0:24:36this right for the future. We must have proper procedures so we deal

0:24:36 > 0:24:41with incidents as and when they occur. And we deal with them

0:24:41 > 0:24:44prepperly in a way which gets to the bottom of the issue and deals with

0:24:44 > 0:24:49it properly.Why should anyone have confidence the Labour Party will

0:24:49 > 0:24:53treat issues that seriously when, firstly there's a question whether

0:24:53 > 0:24:58they knew about Kelvin hop kips and others have been dissuaded from

0:24:58 > 0:25:03making complaints. Knots just Bex Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she

0:25:03 > 0:25:08was harassed at a party senior figures in the Labour Party told her

0:25:08 > 0:25:14it was her own fault. It seems as if there hasn't been a culture within

0:25:14 > 0:25:20Labour to make a complaint.That's why we're having a thorough review

0:25:20 > 0:25:24of procedures. We brought in new procedures in July. We need to

0:25:24 > 0:25:30ensure there's a proper helpline available. We are appointing an

0:25:30 > 0:25:32independent organisation which will deal with allegations first-hand so

0:25:32 > 0:25:36nobody has to go to somebody they think might know other people, be

0:25:36 > 0:25:41friends with other people. They can go somewhere completely confidential

0:25:41 > 0:25:46and private. These are often things you can't want to tell your cross

0:25:46 > 0:25:50friends about. We will appoint that organisation and make sure people

0:25:50 > 0:25:55can go there and access to it is made widely known. It is very, very

0:25:55 > 0:25:58important when people come into a job, they know if anything does

0:25:58 > 0:26:02happen, they will be able to complain. Whether they are ordinary

0:26:02 > 0:26:08party members or working in Westminster.Thank you for talking

0:26:08 > 0:26:08to us

0:26:08 > 0:26:10For Thank you for talking to us some

0:26:10 > 0:26:12on the left of politics,

0:26:12 > 0:26:14this weekend wasn't just a chance

0:26:14 > 0:26:16to mark the anniversary of the failed gunpowder

0:26:16 > 0:26:19plot here in Britain, but also events in Russia 100 years

0:26:19 > 0:26:21ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries led by Lenin seized power

0:26:21 > 0:26:23and ushered in seven decades of Communist rule.

0:26:23 > 0:26:25For critics, that's something to regret, not celebrate.

0:26:25 > 0:26:26Elizabeth Glinka went to one event in London to find out more.

0:26:31 > 0:26:33The 7th November 1917.

0:26:33 > 0:26:37Red Guards under the leadership of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy

0:26:37 > 0:26:42Government buildings in Petrograd.

0:26:42 > 0:26:44This uprising, known popularly as Red October

0:26:44 > 0:26:47because of the difference in the Gregorian calendar,

0:26:47 > 0:26:50was, in fact, a coup.

0:26:50 > 0:26:54The winds of socialist change had been blowing for some time.

0:26:54 > 0:26:59The Tsars had resisted reform and millions toiled in a state

0:26:59 > 0:27:01of almost medieval surfdom.

0:27:01 > 0:27:05Then war.

0:27:05 > 0:27:10Nearly two million Russians would die.

0:27:10 > 0:27:15The revolution had really begun nine months earlier in February 1917.

0:27:15 > 0:27:21The world's first socialist republic was declared.

0:27:21 > 0:27:24October, well that was the Bolsheviks

0:27:24 > 0:27:28asserting their authority.

0:27:30 > 0:27:33A hundred years on, as this event at the TUC shows,

0:27:33 > 0:27:36there's still plenty of people who want to remember and even

0:27:36 > 0:27:40celebrate those momentous events.

0:27:40 > 0:27:43Mainly as an event in history,

0:27:43 > 0:27:45this is an example of historical development in action,

0:27:45 > 0:27:49the ability of people to club together and be able to affect

0:27:49 > 0:27:50the discourse of history.

0:27:50 > 0:27:53It was people's first attempt at trying to build socialism.

0:27:53 > 0:27:56Although there were many terrible things that happened,

0:27:56 > 0:27:58I think we have to try and draw from experience.

0:27:58 > 0:28:01Jeremy Corbyn's close friend and adviser, Andrew Murray,

0:28:01 > 0:28:04was chairing the opening session.

0:28:04 > 0:28:07He didn't want to talk to us but we did manage to speak

0:28:07 > 0:28:13to the daughter of one of the most famous Communists of all time.

0:28:13 > 0:28:16TRANSLATION:It's an historic moment

0:28:16 > 0:28:19which opened up possibilities for further changes

0:28:19 > 0:28:21and allowed other people to strive for a different world.

0:28:21 > 0:28:25A world, which it seems, some are still keen to push for.

0:28:25 > 0:28:27We're growing, so there is obviously a positive reflection.

0:28:27 > 0:28:29There is a lot of negative propaganda that comes

0:28:29 > 0:28:31from the Cold War period.

0:28:31 > 0:28:33It is harder to talk to older people maybe.

0:28:33 > 0:28:35But younger people are quite receptive.

0:28:35 > 0:28:38The events and discussions taking place here today cover a whole range

0:28:38 > 0:28:42of topics from women's rights to the Third World

0:28:42 > 0:28:44and the impact on British socialism.

0:28:44 > 0:28:48But there's much less discussion of the Russian Civil War,

0:28:48 > 0:28:52the purges and the political repression that would come later.

0:28:52 > 0:28:54We wanted to have this conference

0:28:54 > 0:28:57because we wanted to show it in a positive light.

0:28:57 > 0:29:01Whatever one's view of what happened to the Soviet Union subsequently

0:29:01 > 0:29:05the fact is it is important to understand the process

0:29:05 > 0:29:08of revolutionary change for its own sake.

0:29:09 > 0:29:13Red October would usher in 70 years of communism.

0:29:13 > 0:29:16The proletarite would rise, find respect and security.

0:29:16 > 0:29:20But the suppression of the peoples of Eastern Europe, the forced labour

0:29:20 > 0:29:24camps and the murder of hundreds of thousands, if not millions

0:29:24 > 0:29:28of people, make it difficult for many to see that revolution

0:29:28 > 0:29:32as something to celebrate.

0:29:33 > 0:29:35That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting.

0:29:35 > 0:29:37So is the centenary of the Russian Revolution a cause

0:29:37 > 0:29:39for celebration, or regret?

0:29:39 > 0:29:41Well, to discuss this I'm joined by former Labour

0:29:41 > 0:29:47and Respect MP George Galloway, and the journalist Peter Hitchens.

0:29:47 > 0:29:52Good morning. Let me start with you George Galloway. Is the October

0:29:52 > 0:29:56revolution a cause for celebration? With the, if not for the October

0:29:56 > 0:30:00revolution, we'd been conducting this interview in German. Though the

0:30:00 > 0:30:04truth is this interview wouldn't be taking place and we probably

0:30:04 > 0:30:11wouldn't be alive for a variety of reasons. The Soviet Union broke the

0:30:11 > 0:30:14back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill often owe pined in Parliament and

0:30:14 > 0:30:22elsewhere. If not for the Soviet Union, Hitler would have ruled. And

0:30:22 > 0:30:27his successorsness, perhaps until now, from Vladivostok all the way to

0:30:27 > 0:30:32Portugal.You say we wouldn't be able to have this discussion. In the

0:30:32 > 0:30:34former Soviet Union we couldn't have this office either?That's also

0:30:34 > 0:30:42true. But even the...George will be able to say, that of course.Even

0:30:42 > 0:30:46the sun has spots on its face as they used to say in the Soviet

0:30:46 > 0:30:55Union. There is no doubt tremendous abrasions, big crimes, a lot of

0:30:55 > 0:31:05suffering but, if not for the transformation, then the Soviet

0:31:05 > 0:31:12Union, Russia's GDP increased from 1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation.

0:31:12 > 0:31:19And the strength that defeated Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:19 > 0:31:23Peter Hitchens, does it offend you there are people celebrating 100

0:31:23 > 0:31:28years since the Russian Revolution? Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union,

0:31:28 > 0:31:33in which I lived, you would not have been able to say it was set up by a

0:31:33 > 0:31:35cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but engineered by the German Imperial

0:31:35 > 0:31:53Government using -- a cynical putsch, almost bloodless. That this

0:31:53 > 0:31:58was the inauguration of an immensely long period of repression,

0:31:58 > 0:32:02brutality, secret police, concentration camps and lies, which

0:32:02 > 0:32:06I am likely to have seen come to an end in my lifetime, and I cannot see

0:32:06 > 0:32:09why anybody looking at that disastrous country where so much

0:32:09 > 0:32:12misery was needlessly imposed on so many people for so long could

0:32:12 > 0:32:15possibly celebrate the beginning of it, which was completely avoidable,

0:32:15 > 0:32:21and as I say was truly the result of the cynical foreign policy and

0:32:21 > 0:32:23intelligence operations of the Imperial German Government is trying

0:32:23 > 0:32:27to save it skin...But everyone including George Galloway

0:32:27 > 0:32:32acknowledges the tyranny and terror that followed.He doesn't. He gives

0:32:32 > 0:32:35statistics about GDP but fails to mention the people murdered in

0:32:35 > 0:32:42labour

0:32:42 > 0:32:48camp... He was of course formerly a Trotskyite and sung the praises of

0:32:48 > 0:32:52Lenin, which I have not done and neither have I done today. I have

0:32:52 > 0:32:56never been a Communist, unlike Peter Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and

0:32:56 > 0:33:01celebrate that an entirely different world opened up as a result of the

0:33:01 > 0:33:05events in October 19 17. China, you have just seen their party congress,

0:33:05 > 0:33:10decorated with the iconography of the Bolshevik Revolution, and China

0:33:10 > 0:33:13is the most powerful, or soon will be the most powerful country on the

0:33:13 > 0:33:18earth.With one of the most repressive government?I don't think

0:33:18 > 0:33:24that is true. There is repression in China, but...Enormous repression in

0:33:24 > 0:33:28China! How can you possibly argue there is an?China has taken more

0:33:28 > 0:33:33people out of poverty in the last 30 years than any country, resume,

0:33:33 > 0:33:38system, ever has -- how can you possibly argue there is not?All

0:33:38 > 0:33:42despots always argue, trying to distract your attention from the

0:33:42 > 0:33:46mountains of skulls behind them, their supposed economic success,

0:33:46 > 0:33:49which generally does not turn out to be as great as claimed. The Soviet

0:33:49 > 0:33:54Union was an enormous pile of rust by the time I lived there and was a

0:33:54 > 0:33:58complete catastrophe.Yes, that is why it fell down. But we are talking

0:33:58 > 0:34:04about the Revolution 100 years ago. Is it possible to separate the two

0:34:04 > 0:34:07events? A popular overthrowing of a government is perhaps different from

0:34:07 > 0:34:12the tyranny and terror that followed.It was not a popular

0:34:12 > 0:34:16overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein propaganda as if it were fact. What

0:34:16 > 0:34:21we see was a film made afterwards. What actually happened was a putsch

0:34:21 > 0:34:30in the middle of the night in which hardly anybody... Nobody has even

0:34:30 > 0:34:37mentioned...That German connection, a rather more important...Nobody

0:34:37 > 0:34:40has even mentioned during this year until now that there was a Russian

0:34:40 > 0:34:45Revolution. There were two. The first one was a genuine uprising,

0:34:45 > 0:34:48overthrowing the old regime, and I think we can all be glad of it. The

0:34:48 > 0:34:55second one was a cynical for -- foreign financed putsch and it does

0:34:55 > 0:34:58not deserve to be spoken out.Is that true, and Menshevik revolution

0:34:58 > 0:35:04would have done better than a Bolshevik one?It is not my business

0:35:04 > 0:35:10and entirely counterfactual fiction, if I may...Unlike how you open this

0:35:10 > 0:35:14discussion.That is the most important thing. If not for the

0:35:14 > 0:35:21Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here. Hetmyer might still, and most of the

0:35:21 > 0:35:26world, with its allies -- Adolph Hitler might have won and they make,

0:35:26 > 0:35:31and most of the world...The effect of Bolshevism and coming is on

0:35:31 > 0:35:34Europe was colossal.Let's bring it all a little bit more up-to-date.

0:35:34 > 0:35:40You were saying earlier you have never been a Leninist, although

0:35:40 > 0:35:46Peter Hitchens confesses he was at one time.Absolutely was a

0:35:46 > 0:35:53Trotskyist, and now nor the complete folly of that particular political

0:35:53 > 0:35:57disposition.John McDonnell in the Labour Party openly says he is a

0:35:57 > 0:36:02Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a problem for the Labour Party?I

0:36:02 > 0:36:05would have thought, arts would be more respected now than he has been

0:36:05 > 0:36:11for quite some time as capitalism is collapsing around our ears. From

0:36:11 > 0:36:172008 the Economist itself, the bible of capitalism, began to resurrect

0:36:17 > 0:36:22Marxist economics and analysis, so I really don't think it is. Jeremy

0:36:22 > 0:36:32Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only took them four years, 54...It is

0:36:32 > 0:36:39not that.I think we are moving into an era where Governments like the

0:36:39 > 0:36:43Chinese Government are making plans, and are succeeding in implementing

0:36:43 > 0:36:49them, and thus transforming their position. China in 1949, and I don't

0:36:49 > 0:36:52need to tell you, was just about the most backward place you could

0:36:52 > 0:36:59possibly imagine. And from 1949 to now it has sold transforms that it

0:36:59 > 0:37:07is the world's biggest economy...We are in danger of getting sidetracked

0:37:07 > 0:37:12by China here.I have to put this point in. If China was backward in

0:37:12 > 0:37:161949 it was far more backward by the time Mao Zedong finished his great

0:37:16 > 0:37:19leap forward and starved millions of people to death in the period of

0:37:19 > 0:37:25economic lunacy. You just don't notice...What George was saying

0:37:25 > 0:37:29they are, and a sense certainly amongst younger voters in this

0:37:29 > 0:37:31country and others, where they are turning against capitalism, they

0:37:31 > 0:37:35don't think it has worked or delivered for them, that this kind

0:37:35 > 0:37:39of Marxist Leninist philosophy is becoming more popular?Let's hope

0:37:39 > 0:37:43not. The fact the current system is failing does not seem to recommend

0:37:43 > 0:37:49the Soviet system, which is demonstrably a failure, and even its

0:37:49 > 0:37:52own leaders admitted it failed and that is why they tried to reform it

0:37:52 > 0:37:55in the period I was there and why it collapsed. Whatever you might want

0:37:55 > 0:37:58to conclude from examining our position, the Soviet alternative is

0:37:58 > 0:38:01not the thing you want the dues. This was a long period of disaster,

0:38:01 > 0:38:06and I remember at the end of it watching in Moscow said a film which

0:38:06 > 0:38:12has never been shown here, and the title means approximately we can't

0:38:12 > 0:38:18go on living like this, and for the first time, the politburo told the

0:38:18 > 0:38:20truth about what life was like in the dreadful place and everyone in

0:38:20 > 0:38:23that cinema was weeping because finally they saw the truth being

0:38:23 > 0:38:26told about the dreadful anti-civilisation in which they had

0:38:26 > 0:38:30been taught to live for so long. The idea we should celebrate it revive

0:38:30 > 0:38:34it seems to me to be verging on the obscene.George, one interesting

0:38:34 > 0:38:39question about this of course, whilst there are events going on in

0:38:39 > 0:38:43London and across the UK to mark this centenary, it is not being

0:38:43 > 0:38:46celebrated in Russia.I was in Russia a couple of weeks ago. There

0:38:46 > 0:38:51is a big debate about whether it ought to be, and many people are

0:38:51 > 0:38:55celebrating it...Vladimir Putin is not. He would want to ignore it.But

0:38:55 > 0:39:00the Communist Party is the second biggest party in Russia. And it is

0:39:00 > 0:39:06the ruling party in China, which, with respect, is not a separate

0:39:06 > 0:39:08thing, because China is continuing the Russian Revolution and doing

0:39:08 > 0:39:13rather better at it than the Russians did, but there are many

0:39:13 > 0:39:17people, particularly older, that is true, who think that the era of the

0:39:17 > 0:39:23Soviet Union was better than the very cold period of capitalism that

0:39:23 > 0:39:30succeeded it. So half the world followed for a time the red flag,

0:39:30 > 0:39:38the red banner of Leninism. No one will do so again. Leninism of the

0:39:38 > 0:39:41kind that Peter used to proselytise is certainly not coming back, but

0:39:41 > 0:39:47Marxism is going to live on.Let's hope not.Thank you both, gentlemen,

0:39:47 > 0:39:49for coming on to speak about that.

0:39:49 > 0:39:50It's coming up to 11.40am.

0:39:50 > 0:39:51You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:39:51 > 0:39:54Coming up on the programme:

0:39:54 > 0:39:57We've taken the moodbox to where else but bonfire night celebrations.

0:39:57 > 0:40:00We've taken the moodbox to where else but bonfire night celebrations?

0:40:00 > 0:40:02It wasn't just Westminster that had the fireworks this week.

0:40:02 > 0:40:04We're asking people in Guildford in Surrey,

0:40:04 > 0:40:05does Theresa May have control of her Government and her party?

0:40:12 > 0:40:14Hello, I'm Natalie Graham and this is the Sunday Politics

0:40:14 > 0:40:15in the South East.

0:40:15 > 0:40:17Coming up later:

0:40:17 > 0:40:20A longer journey to the Job Centre - if you're on benefits

0:40:20 > 0:40:21in parts of Kent.

0:40:21 > 0:40:23We're going to be hearing from campaigners concerned

0:40:23 > 0:40:28about the decision to close several centres in the county.

0:40:28 > 0:40:30Joining me in the studio this week are Henry Smith,

0:40:30 > 0:40:33the Conservative MP for Crawley, and Keith Taylor, who's the Green

0:40:33 > 0:40:35MEP for the South East region.

0:40:35 > 0:40:36Hi.

0:40:36 > 0:40:37A warm welcome to you both.

0:40:37 > 0:40:40There's a housing crisis and it needs to be fixed.

0:40:40 > 0:40:41That's the mantra of many politicians.

0:40:41 > 0:40:44But how?

0:40:44 > 0:40:46The Government's come up with a new way of working out

0:40:46 > 0:40:51where houses should be built, based on demand.

0:40:51 > 0:40:53It would mean the south east increasing the number

0:40:53 > 0:40:55of new homes by up to 40% in some areas.

0:40:55 > 0:40:58But it's got Conservative MPs and council leaders very cross.

0:40:58 > 0:41:02Here's Sara Neville.

0:41:02 > 0:41:05It seems we're all agreed that the housing market is broken

0:41:05 > 0:41:07and we need to build more homes.

0:41:07 > 0:41:08But how many and where is causing Conservative

0:41:09 > 0:41:11dissent in the garden of England.

0:41:11 > 0:41:15The Government reckons we need 266,000 more homes a year to meet

0:41:15 > 0:41:18rising demand.

0:41:18 > 0:41:28So, it is proposing a radical new shake-up of the system

0:41:28 > 0:41:31to accelerate development, which would see most parts

0:41:31 > 0:41:33of the south east building more homes than is

0:41:33 > 0:41:34currently planned.

0:41:34 > 0:41:36While other areas have their home-building targets cut.

0:41:36 > 0:41:38Here, in the Medway towns, it could mean

0:41:38 > 0:41:40an extra 38,000 homes in the

0:41:40 > 0:41:44next 20 years - an impossible target, according to the area's

0:41:44 > 0:41:48three Conservative MPs.

0:41:48 > 0:41:53Minister and Chatham MP Tracey Crouch, Gillingham MP

0:41:53 > 0:41:58Rehman Chishti and Rochester MP Kelly Tolhurst have sent a warning

0:41:58 > 0:42:01shot to the Government in the form of a joint letter calling for an

0:42:01 > 0:42:03urgent review of the new formula.

0:42:03 > 0:42:04We need to build more homes in Medway,

0:42:04 > 0:42:07everybody recognises that.

0:42:07 > 0:42:12But we need to do it in a sustainable way

0:42:12 > 0:42:15where we are able to provide the infrastructure and the quality of

0:42:15 > 0:42:17life for people that are living in north Kent.

0:42:17 > 0:42:20But I will keep making the case as to why I think those

0:42:20 > 0:42:21numbers are undeliverable for Medway.

0:42:21 > 0:42:24And it's not just MPs who are upset.

0:42:24 > 0:42:28Projections for home-building are currently set by the local authority

0:42:28 > 0:42:34whose leaders are now speaking out.

0:42:34 > 0:42:37One told us this week the plans are nonsensical and take housing

0:42:37 > 0:42:38numbers into the realms of fantasy.

0:42:38 > 0:42:42Another with concerns is the leader of Medway Council.

0:42:42 > 0:42:45Well, I'm absolutely livid, to be quite frank, because it is not

0:42:45 > 0:42:55fair, it's not equitable.

0:42:56 > 0:42:59It would inevitably mean a huge loss of green spaces, open land.

0:42:59 > 0:43:02What I am hearing is absolute astonishment that some of

0:43:02 > 0:43:03these numbers are being consulted on.

0:43:03 > 0:43:05I talk to leaders from all across Kent, particularly

0:43:05 > 0:43:08north and east Kent, and not one of them are

0:43:08 > 0:43:09happy with these numbers.

0:43:09 > 0:43:14So, how would the new targets be calculated?

0:43:14 > 0:43:17Well, areas where house prices are more than four times the average

0:43:17 > 0:43:21income will have to build more homes, which means Kent and Sussex

0:43:21 > 0:43:27will have to develop more than most other regions.

0:43:27 > 0:43:31It would mean some 176,000 more houses in the

0:43:31 > 0:43:34south east in the next ten years.

0:43:34 > 0:43:37For Maidstone and Gravesham, it will mean increasing their plan targets

0:43:37 > 0:43:39by almost 40%.

0:43:39 > 0:43:42Canterbury's house building would increase by 37% and Swales

0:43:42 > 0:43:46by 36%.

0:43:46 > 0:43:50Meanwhile, in parts of East Sussex, the figures would be

0:43:50 > 0:43:54dramatically cut by 38% in Brighton, 30% in Hastings and just over 29% in

0:43:54 > 0:43:58Crawley.

0:43:58 > 0:44:02Some building is happening, like here in Chatham where 77 new

0:44:02 > 0:44:07homes are going up as part of a £12 million regeneration project.

0:44:07 > 0:44:10Most of which are affordable homes like these.

0:44:10 > 0:44:13This social housing was built by one of the biggest providers in

0:44:13 > 0:44:16the south east, the chief executive welcomes the Government's plans.

0:44:16 > 0:44:19Everybody deserves a decent home and we have to find a way of tackling

0:44:19 > 0:44:22that.

0:44:22 > 0:44:25There are so many people across Kent who just can't get

0:44:25 > 0:44:27access to the housing they need and if this leads

0:44:27 > 0:44:33to greater investment, greater opportunity for housing

0:44:33 > 0:44:36associations like MHS to meet local need in that way, then that

0:44:36 > 0:44:39has got to be an important and worthwhile step to make.

0:44:39 > 0:44:41Medway will grow, like much of Kent and

0:44:41 > 0:44:42Sussex, but on whose terms?

0:44:42 > 0:44:43The Government consultation closes this

0:44:43 > 0:44:46week with the hope that the new formula will be introduced

0:44:46 > 0:44:48next year.

0:44:48 > 0:44:50Henry Smith, as you've just heard, this is causing extraordinary levels

0:44:50 > 0:44:52of anger among people in your own party.

0:44:52 > 0:45:03Alan Jarrett, as we just heard, is absolutely

0:45:03 > 0:45:12livid,

0:45:12 > 0:45:14but Andrew Bowles, who's the leader of Swale Borough Council

0:45:14 > 0:45:16says his reaction was horror,

0:45:16 > 0:45:17disbelief and total frustration at these plans.

0:45:17 > 0:45:19Are they wrong to be angry?

0:45:19 > 0:45:21Well, I don't think I've ever known a time

0:45:21 > 0:45:23when house-building hasn't been controversial, both by those who say

0:45:23 > 0:45:26we are not building enough houses because we have got an increasing

0:45:26 > 0:45:29population, people are living longer, fewer people under the same

0:45:29 > 0:45:31roof in many respects and also then the pressure

0:45:31 > 0:45:32on our environment, the

0:45:32 > 0:45:34green belt, in many parts of the south-east and,

0:45:34 > 0:45:36you know, not least the pressure on infrastructure.

0:45:36 > 0:45:39I think people have been very averse to new developments because they

0:45:39 > 0:45:42don't see the new road junction or the railway station or the new

0:45:42 > 0:45:43classrooms...

0:45:43 > 0:45:45That is the complaint of the three MPs in Medway.

0:45:45 > 0:45:48And I think one of the reasons why people

0:45:48 > 0:45:50are so resistant historically to planning is because the

0:45:50 > 0:45:52infrastructure hasn't kept pace with the new housing.

0:45:52 > 0:45:54So, I welcome the Government looking at this issue,

0:45:54 > 0:45:55this consultation that is about to close

0:45:55 > 0:45:57and no doubt will go on, but

0:45:57 > 0:46:00we have to really reach that balance of providing enough housing but at

0:46:00 > 0:46:03the same time not ruining what makes the south-east such a wonderful

0:46:03 > 0:46:04place to live.

0:46:04 > 0:46:07So, in response to my question, are those council leaders

0:46:07 > 0:46:09in Kent and those three MPs, including a Government minister,

0:46:09 > 0:46:12Tracey Crouch, are they wrong to be angry and to make such a big fuss

0:46:13 > 0:46:14about this?

0:46:14 > 0:46:15No, not at all.

0:46:15 > 0:46:17I think it is absolutely right that our

0:46:17 > 0:46:19elected representatives are reflecting the voices of the people

0:46:19 > 0:46:21who they are representing in their local communities.

0:46:21 > 0:46:23And so if there is concern about policy,

0:46:23 > 0:46:24it is absolutely right that

0:46:24 > 0:46:27that should be aired and discussed.

0:46:27 > 0:46:34Now, your constituency, ironically a new town itself

0:46:34 > 0:46:36itself actually would, under this formula,

0:46:36 > 0:46:38see a reduction in the housing targets.

0:46:38 > 0:46:40But for others, this is a very simplistic formula,

0:46:40 > 0:46:41this is the argument, being imposed across

0:46:41 > 0:46:43the board from top down to

0:46:43 > 0:46:46local councils who are telling us that they will not be able to

0:46:46 > 0:46:47deliver them.

0:46:47 > 0:46:49It doesn't sound like good Government policy, does it?

0:46:49 > 0:46:53Well, I think, you know, I can't speak for the Government but what I

0:46:53 > 0:46:57think they are trying to do is open up the debate about the future of

0:46:57 > 0:46:59house-building and I think that is an important

0:46:59 > 0:47:02and necessary debate to have.

0:47:02 > 0:47:06But, at the same time, people are expressing their views very

0:47:06 > 0:47:09vigorously and I think, you know, in a democracy, it's a good thing.

0:47:09 > 0:47:14But this very principle, before I move

0:47:14 > 0:47:16on to Keith Taylor, this very principle of a

0:47:16 > 0:47:18simplistic formula, yes, it might have simplify things,

0:47:18 > 0:47:20but it is being imposed on councils against their will.

0:47:20 > 0:47:23Do you think, as an MP, that is good planning policy?

0:47:23 > 0:47:24I am not a central planner.

0:47:24 > 0:47:30One of my political instincts isn't for the state to be

0:47:30 > 0:47:33telling people what to do if at all possible, so it is against my

0:47:33 > 0:47:35instincts to have some central diktat.

0:47:35 > 0:47:38But I think it is important that the issue of house-building is

0:47:38 > 0:47:41being discussed and I have no doubt there will be a vigorous debate

0:47:41 > 0:47:42going forward.

0:47:42 > 0:47:44Keith Taylor, you represent the whole region in the

0:47:45 > 0:47:46European Parliament.

0:47:46 > 0:47:47I do.

0:47:47 > 0:47:49When you look at the area as a whole and see

0:47:49 > 0:47:52that some towns, as we have just heard, will see

0:47:52 > 0:47:57up to a 40% increase in

0:47:57 > 0:47:59housing targets, but others, like Brighton and Hove

0:47:59 > 0:48:00will see, I think,

0:48:00 > 0:48:02nearly a 40% decrease in the housing targets.

0:48:02 > 0:48:05What do you make of that?

0:48:05 > 0:48:08I think actually we need to start looking at the housing stock that we

0:48:08 > 0:48:11have got and the Tories, if you don't mind me

0:48:11 > 0:48:12saying, are just as

0:48:12 > 0:48:15confused now as they were years ago when Maggie Thatcher introduced the

0:48:15 > 0:48:16right to buy council houses.

0:48:16 > 0:48:19And that is without an obligation to replace that social housing stock.

0:48:19 > 0:48:20What do you mean confused?

0:48:20 > 0:48:28Well, I mean, what's actually happened is

0:48:28 > 0:48:32that we have seen a massive transfer of property ownership from local

0:48:32 > 0:48:38authorities to landlords.

0:48:38 > 0:48:40But the numbers needed, Keith, and this was a

0:48:40 > 0:48:42huge issue in the recent election.

0:48:42 > 0:48:44Yeah, OK, if you...

0:48:44 > 0:48:46The numbers needed, we aren't building enough and we're not

0:48:46 > 0:48:47building them quickly enough.

0:48:47 > 0:48:49No, and we're not building the right sort.

0:48:49 > 0:48:51And leasing land can be tricky and it is

0:48:51 > 0:48:53not going to release enough, is it, enough derelict,

0:48:53 > 0:48:56empty homes to fulfill the needs of ourhousing population?

0:48:56 > 0:48:58What we need is more social housing and we need to stop

0:48:58 > 0:49:02the sell-off of housing association into the private market and that

0:49:02 > 0:49:06both were Tory measures.

0:49:06 > 0:49:10What we need to see now is, as you say,

0:49:10 > 0:49:15brownfield land being brought back in, we need to see an end to this

0:49:15 > 0:49:21ridiculous Tory national policy planning framework which actually

0:49:21 > 0:49:23says to councils, if this isn't sustainable to have a social housing

0:49:23 > 0:49:29quota in there, you don't have to push it through.

0:49:29 > 0:49:31I'd like to challenge that very briefly on two

0:49:31 > 0:49:37points.

0:49:37 > 0:49:40First of all, once somebody exercises the right to buy, that

0:49:40 > 0:49:42house still exists, it is still a dwelling,

0:49:42 > 0:49:45it doesn't disappear but also...

0:49:45 > 0:49:52But it is not owned by the council.

0:49:52 > 0:49:54But, but, but the Government commitment is to at least

0:49:54 > 0:49:57replace every household with a new social housing stock in that same

0:49:57 > 0:49:58area.

0:49:58 > 0:50:01Now, just getting back to this issue of the top down formula, not

0:50:01 > 0:50:04that long ago I was sitting in the studio with Government ministers

0:50:04 > 0:50:07telling us about the marvels of localism and how they were devolving

0:50:07 > 0:50:08power to local government.

0:50:08 > 0:50:10This seems to be, as one council leader

0:50:10 > 0:50:12put it, the final nail in the coffin of localism.

0:50:12 > 0:50:14It's very contradictory, isn't it?

0:50:14 > 0:50:16Well, my background in public life is as

0:50:16 > 0:50:17council leader.

0:50:17 > 0:50:19I was the leader of West Sussex for many years and I

0:50:19 > 0:50:24think, you know, devolution of power is a very important thing.

0:50:24 > 0:50:26I still believe in devolution of power

0:50:26 > 0:50:29and I would certainly resist any central government diktat that took

0:50:29 > 0:50:31that away.

0:50:31 > 0:50:32OK, we move on.

0:50:32 > 0:50:34Sorry, Keith, you will have your chance in

0:50:34 > 0:50:35a moment.

0:50:35 > 0:50:38I could mention a total contradiction again but I won't.

0:50:38 > 0:50:40OK, I just did, we are going to move on.

0:50:40 > 0:50:43Now, if you're claiming benefits and you live in Herne Bay,

0:50:43 > 0:50:45Whitstable or Tunbridge Wells, you may soon have to travel much

0:50:46 > 0:50:47further to go to the Job Centre.

0:50:47 > 0:50:50The Government has been looking again at where they're located.

0:50:50 > 0:50:52It says because more people are claiming their benefits online,

0:50:52 > 0:50:55some centres are under-used and will close next March.

0:50:55 > 0:50:58Rosie Duffield is the Labour MP for Canterbury and says the plans

0:50:58 > 0:51:01are already upsetting many of her constituents.

0:51:01 > 0:51:11It is a £7 return bus fare from Whitstable to Canterbury

0:51:11 > 0:51:13and lots of those people are kind of elderly

0:51:13 > 0:51:15or in a position where they can't necessarily afford that fare.

0:51:15 > 0:51:17Obviously they wouldn't be going to the Job Centre

0:51:18 > 0:51:19if they were comfortably off.

0:51:19 > 0:51:21I think it is all of those things, if you

0:51:21 > 0:51:23an appointment or you miss an interview,

0:51:23 > 0:51:25you are stuck on a bus or

0:51:25 > 0:51:27the bus is late, then you are terrified about getting sanctions

0:51:27 > 0:51:30imposed.

0:51:30 > 0:51:32Also the Universal Credit roll out, people are really, really

0:51:32 > 0:51:35worried about missing that bit of advice, not knowing where to go.

0:51:35 > 0:51:37It is all a horrible, confusing time at

0:51:37 > 0:51:40the moment, that added stress and pressure

0:51:40 > 0:51:41on someone already

0:51:41 > 0:51:43receiving benefits is a bit cruel, I think.

0:51:43 > 0:51:45Well, joining us now from Whitstable double

0:51:45 > 0:51:47is Sue Bott, who is the deputy

0:51:47 > 0:51:48of chief executive of Disability Rights UK.

0:51:48 > 0:51:52Thank you very much for joining us.

0:51:52 > 0:51:55Maybe you could explain what these closures may mean for people who

0:51:55 > 0:51:56claim benefits in Whitstable.

0:51:56 > 0:51:58Well, I think it will mean that people

0:51:58 > 0:51:59have to travel a lot further.

0:51:59 > 0:52:05But let's remember that that is not always easy

0:52:05 > 0:52:06for people, there's the

0:52:06 > 0:52:08affordability problem, but also for the disabled people,

0:52:08 > 0:52:09there is the access problem.

0:52:09 > 0:52:16I have to say that the buses to and from Canterbury are

0:52:16 > 0:52:19not the most accessible going and could cause a lot of disabled

0:52:19 > 0:52:21people especially, I think, great difficulties.

0:52:21 > 0:52:28But the Government is saying, isn't it, that it will offer

0:52:28 > 0:52:30tailored support for the most vulnerable affected by these

0:52:30 > 0:52:32closures?

0:52:32 > 0:52:34It says group sessions, work coaches and increased

0:52:34 > 0:52:37flexibility, it does seem to be responding to those concerns.

0:52:37 > 0:52:39Yeah, but the trouble is that to be able

0:52:39 > 0:52:42to access those concerns, you have got to go to your Job Centre,

0:52:42 > 0:52:43haven't you?

0:52:43 > 0:52:48So, I am not reassured by that statement in any way

0:52:48 > 0:52:53whatsoever and I think what we have heard from our members at Disability

0:52:53 > 0:52:58Rights UK time and time again is that there are all these

0:52:58 > 0:53:00pronouncements but actually when it comes to it, there isn't the

0:53:00 > 0:53:01protection there for disabled people.

0:53:02 > 0:53:03In fact, quite the reverse.

0:53:03 > 0:53:11The Government seems to have it in for disabled people.

0:53:11 > 0:53:14So, what exactly do you think the consequences will be for those

0:53:14 > 0:53:17people who find it difficult to travel that bit further to the

0:53:17 > 0:53:18nearest Job Centre?

0:53:18 > 0:53:20Well, I think the consequences will be that people

0:53:20 > 0:53:23will find it very difficult to claim the benefits that they are entitled

0:53:23 > 0:53:27to.

0:53:27 > 0:53:30We have got the roll out of Universal Credit in this area from

0:53:30 > 0:53:31April next year.

0:53:31 > 0:53:33You have to apply online.

0:53:33 > 0:53:38Not everyone has access to a computer or can

0:53:38 > 0:53:40even use a computer, that is particularly prevalent among

0:53:40 > 0:53:41disabled people.

0:53:41 > 0:53:45So how are they going to claim?

0:53:45 > 0:53:48They need to go to their Job Centre for support but

0:53:48 > 0:53:51they are going to have to go further for support.

0:53:51 > 0:53:55I just fear that many people are going to be left

0:53:55 > 0:53:56absolutely stranded and with nothing to support them.

0:53:56 > 0:53:59Sue Bott, thank you very much for joining us.

0:53:59 > 0:54:04Henry Smith, do you support these closures?

0:54:04 > 0:54:07Well, I think it is actually a reflection of the fact

0:54:07 > 0:54:09that we have got record high employment in this country now.

0:54:09 > 0:54:12In my Crawley constituency, where the

0:54:12 > 0:54:17Job Centre happens to be remaining open, it's 1.5%.

0:54:17 > 0:54:20So I think this is a consequence of both a growing

0:54:20 > 0:54:23economy and more things being able to be done remotely on the web.

0:54:23 > 0:54:25And, of course, it's important that we

0:54:25 > 0:54:28are delivering employment support and Job Centre

0:54:28 > 0:54:30support to people in

0:54:30 > 0:54:33the most cost-effective way, which is up-to-date with the way we

0:54:33 > 0:54:35transact.

0:54:35 > 0:54:36Yeah, and that is the Government's argument for

0:54:37 > 0:54:38justification for the closures.

0:54:38 > 0:54:41But as you have just heard, I mean, Sue Bott

0:54:41 > 0:54:43thinks the Government has got it in for disabled people.

0:54:43 > 0:54:47Rosie Duffield described it as a very cruel move because of those

0:54:47 > 0:54:49small number of very vulnerable people who will be adversely

0:54:49 > 0:54:50affected, they say.

0:54:50 > 0:54:53Well, one of the features of the support for

0:54:53 > 0:54:56unemployed people, those sort of typically

0:54:56 > 0:54:59hard to reach people who

0:54:59 > 0:55:03are maybe long-term unemployed for all sorts of reasons, disability

0:55:03 > 0:55:07being one of them, is targeted support and support groups to make

0:55:07 > 0:55:11sure that they are receiving the kind of help that they need.

0:55:11 > 0:55:16So I think the answer is to really use

0:55:16 > 0:55:24resource more efficiency to target those most in need, whereas I think

0:55:24 > 0:55:27for the vast majority of people, give the example of Monarch Airlines

0:55:27 > 0:55:29going out of business recently, the Job Centre

0:55:29 > 0:55:31remotely contacted all of

0:55:31 > 0:55:34those employees who were losing their jobs with information on how

0:55:34 > 0:55:39easyJet and Virgin Atlantic and other airline employers wanted to

0:55:39 > 0:55:42employ them without ever having to visit the Job Centre

0:55:42 > 0:55:43in the first place.

0:55:43 > 0:55:45I think Job Centres are changing as the economy grows.

0:55:45 > 0:55:47And you are confident they can target

0:55:47 > 0:55:49those people who might be worst hit?

0:55:49 > 0:55:52I don't think we should ever be complacent and we need to ensure

0:55:52 > 0:55:55that resources are focused on those most vulnerable and most in need.

0:55:55 > 0:55:58OK, Keith Taylor, if the Government is right and 99% of people claiming

0:55:58 > 0:56:02Universal Credit are doing it online, it does make sense, doesn't

0:56:02 > 0:56:03it, to reduce your use of expensive buildings?

0:56:03 > 0:56:07Well, in one way, yes.

0:56:07 > 0:56:11But if that expensive building is there for the elderly person or

0:56:11 > 0:56:16the disabled person who is not near a working Job Centre,

0:56:16 > 0:56:22then it is absolutely...

0:56:22 > 0:56:25I think you are saying you were going to help them but are

0:56:26 > 0:56:27you going to play the bus fare?

0:56:27 > 0:56:30Well, the Government is offering to help with travel costs.

0:56:30 > 0:56:31That's good.

0:56:31 > 0:56:32But...

0:56:32 > 0:56:34There has also been a lot of concern,

0:56:34 > 0:56:35as Henry pointed out, about

0:56:35 > 0:56:36the unemployment rate.

0:56:36 > 0:56:38If the rate is relatively low at the moment,

0:56:38 > 0:56:40then again, it's maybe a good time to save money,

0:56:40 > 0:56:42much-needed money by doing this.

0:56:42 > 0:56:44It's always a good time to save money, Natalie.

0:56:44 > 0:56:46But actually what you need to do is make sure

0:56:46 > 0:56:48that you are spending the money wisely

0:56:48 > 0:56:49enough, reaching out to the

0:56:49 > 0:56:52most vulnerable and most disadvantaged members of society.

0:56:52 > 0:57:00Ever since we've had the austerity programme,

0:57:00 > 0:57:03we have seen employment shrink more and more in terms of

0:57:03 > 0:57:06good jobs that are long-term jobs.

0:57:06 > 0:57:09Where actually now we have got 2 million UK jobs on zero hour

0:57:10 > 0:57:14contracts.

0:57:14 > 0:57:17These people are up against, you know, they're up

0:57:17 > 0:57:18against the sharp end.

0:57:18 > 0:57:20It's come back to the people who are on

0:57:20 > 0:57:21benefits.

0:57:21 > 0:57:24I mean, Universal Credit is being rolled out over the next

0:57:24 > 0:57:27few months, Henry, as you know, this is hugely controversial, even within

0:57:27 > 0:57:28your own party.

0:57:28 > 0:57:30Is this the right time to close Job Centres when

0:57:30 > 0:57:33people are so much in the dark about what it means for them?

0:57:33 > 0:57:36Well, Universal Credit is about rolling

0:57:36 > 0:57:39into one benefit many different benefits so that it is much more

0:57:39 > 0:57:45understandable.

0:57:45 > 0:57:51Also it means that it tapers, so as people get back into

0:57:51 > 0:57:54work, they don't have this cliff edge of suddenly benefits ending.

0:57:54 > 0:57:57But it is the Job Centres where people have to go to have that

0:57:57 > 0:58:00explain to them face-to-face and if those Job Centres are closing at

0:58:00 > 0:58:02this critical time in the benefits system,

0:58:02 > 0:58:03surely a delay would be a

0:58:03 > 0:58:04good idea, wouldn't it?

0:58:04 > 0:58:06Well, as we were discussing earlier on, around

0:58:06 > 0:58:10about 99% of people do deal online with Job Centres and for those who

0:58:10 > 0:58:12are most vulnerable, there is support, again, as we were

0:58:12 > 0:58:14discussing in terms of support for their transport

0:58:14 > 0:58:17to get to the Job Centre, if they need to go

0:58:17 > 0:58:18to a physical location.

0:58:18 > 0:58:21What about the wider narrative?

0:58:21 > 0:58:25I mean, this feeds into an increasing feeling among

0:58:25 > 0:58:28many people that all the things Theresa May said when she took

0:58:28 > 0:58:31office a year ago about helping the most vulnerable in society,

0:58:31 > 0:58:32it just isn't materialising and as we have

0:58:32 > 0:58:34just said, having it in for disabled people.

0:58:34 > 0:58:35Rosie...

0:58:35 > 0:58:38Louise Casey, who has been a Government adviser for 20

0:58:38 > 0:58:40years under Labour and the Conservatives, said the current

0:58:40 > 0:58:41benefits system is punitive.

0:58:41 > 0:58:43This is feeding into a sense that you don't

0:58:43 > 0:58:44care, your government doesn't care.

0:58:44 > 0:58:48Well, I think the best way to care about people is to ensure that there

0:58:48 > 0:58:51is employment for the largest number of people and we have the highest

0:58:51 > 0:58:55employment level since recorded history in this country now.

0:58:55 > 0:58:59The way to get people out of poverty, the

0:58:59 > 0:59:02way to get people out of dependency is to grow the economy and create

0:59:02 > 0:59:03jobs and that way...

0:59:03 > 0:59:12We are talking about the people that have the

0:59:12 > 0:59:16-- are the hardest to find work for, for obvious reasons,

0:59:16 > 0:59:17the most vulnerable.

0:59:17 > 0:59:20And now way you can then focus more resource on precisely

0:59:20 > 0:59:22those people who are most honourable and need that extra help.

0:59:22 > 0:59:24So, is that why the government doesn't fund

0:59:24 > 0:59:25any food banks?

0:59:25 > 0:59:27I don't see the consistency in your argument.

0:59:27 > 0:59:30The conclusion that I and many other have reached is that the

0:59:30 > 0:59:33Conservatives don't really care very much about the poor and vulnerable.

0:59:33 > 0:59:35OK, we are going to move on.

0:59:35 > 0:59:38Because it's time for some of the other news you may have

0:59:38 > 0:59:45missed this week in 60 Seconds with Laurence Sleator.

0:59:45 > 0:59:49Families of the 11 men killed in the Shoreham Air disaster have

0:59:49 > 0:59:53been refused legal aid ahead of an inquest into the crash.

0:59:53 > 0:59:56Theresa May pledged to investigate after local MP Tim

0:59:56 > 0:59:58Lawton raised the issue at Prime Minister's Questions.

0:59:58 > 1:00:00Two years after the accident, he says families

1:00:00 > 1:00:06are no closer to justice.

1:00:06 > 1:00:08It just seems extraordinary to me that it is

1:00:08 > 1:00:11taking so long and yet full justice may be denied to those families

1:00:11 > 1:00:15simply because the funding is not available for legal representation,

1:00:15 > 1:00:23so I think the Prime Minister needs to look at this a bit

1:00:23 > 1:00:25more closely and treat it as the

1:00:25 > 1:00:26exceptionally tragic case it was.

1:00:26 > 1:00:29Hastings Pier has won a prestigious architecture award seven years after

1:00:29 > 1:00:30it was devastated by fire.

1:00:30 > 1:00:32Part crowd funded by locals, the people's

1:00:32 > 1:00:35pier beat five other buildings to win the Riba Stirling Prize and

1:00:35 > 1:00:36be crowned the UK's best new building.

1:00:36 > 1:00:38And Brighton schoolchildren descended on Parliament this week

1:00:38 > 1:00:42with their local MPs as part of Save Our Schools campaign.

1:00:42 > 1:00:44They are calling for more investment in

1:00:44 > 1:00:51education in next month's budget.

1:00:51 > 1:00:54Keith Taylor, the Government has announced more funding for schools

1:00:54 > 1:00:57in the last couple of months and yet the schools don't seem to be happy

1:00:57 > 1:00:58with that.

1:00:58 > 1:01:01The sums don't add up.

1:01:01 > 1:01:11There's already a £1.7 billion shortage in their school funding and

1:01:13 > 1:01:16as it goes on, we are actually going to see a real time

1:01:16 > 1:01:18reduction in school funding, I think it's about

1:01:18 > 1:01:214.5% by 2019 or 2018.

1:01:21 > 1:01:25So, do you think the Chancellor should be listening,

1:01:25 > 1:01:28should be increasing the budget again because some schools say they

1:01:28 > 1:01:30need an extra 2 billion from the Government just

1:01:30 > 1:01:32just to stand still?

1:01:32 > 1:01:40Henry, as you know from schools in your constituency.

1:01:40 > 1:01:42Well, the budget is going up for schools.

1:01:42 > 1:01:44In West Sussex, the figure is 10.7% increase

1:01:44 > 1:01:47in school funding, which is a significant number and there a

1:01:47 > 1:01:49guarantee of a minimum per pupil spent £4800 each.

1:01:49 > 1:01:54As you know, Brighton and Hove, it amounts to 3%.

1:01:54 > 1:01:57They say that will actually be outweighed by inflation, it amounts

1:01:57 > 1:01:58to a 0% increase.

1:01:58 > 1:02:00You can understand why people in Brighton and Hove

1:02:00 > 1:02:02aren't happy even if your constituents are happy with the

1:02:02 > 1:02:03new...

1:02:03 > 1:02:07Well, I think what this new formula does is it writes a wrong

1:02:07 > 1:02:09that is over a decade, the block grant system

1:02:09 > 1:02:11which massively funded urban schools over many years to the

1:02:11 > 1:02:13detriment of schools in places like West

1:02:13 > 1:02:14Sussex, which is one of the

1:02:14 > 1:02:17lowest funded counties in the country and it is important.

1:02:17 > 1:02:20All schools are seeing an increase across the country.

1:02:20 > 1:02:23Not every MP is as happy with this situation as you.

1:02:23 > 1:02:26I mean, other MPs in East Sussex, Maria Caulfield for example, she is

1:02:26 > 1:02:28not happy so it sounds like you are saying,

1:02:28 > 1:02:30we are all right in West Sussex, but others aren't.

1:02:30 > 1:02:33No, I would like to see more funding for

1:02:33 > 1:02:34schools, don't get me wrong.

1:02:34 > 1:02:35But I think the Government does deserve

1:02:35 > 1:02:39some credit for increasing funding, as I say, in West Sussex where my

1:02:39 > 1:02:46constituency is, where I know this situation best by 10.7% which

1:02:46 > 1:02:47is pretty good, given the financial environment.

1:02:47 > 1:02:50OK, I'm afraid that is all we have got time for this week.

1:02:50 > 1:02:51Sorry, Keith.

1:02:51 > 1:02:54My thanks to our guests for today, Keith Taylor, the Green MEP,

1:02:54 > 1:02:56and Henry Smith, the Conservative MP for Crawley.

1:02:56 > 1:02:59We're off air next week because the MPs have got a week

1:02:59 > 1:03:00away from Westminster,

1:03:00 > 1:03:02but Julia will be here the week after,

1:03:02 > 1:03:04I hope you can join her then.

1:03:04 > 1:03:05Bye-bye.

1:03:06 > 1:03:07to support.

1:03:07 > 1:03:10All right, and at that point we have to end it there.

1:03:10 > 1:03:12My thanks to Rosena and Andrew, and with that it's back to Sarah.

1:03:12 > 1:03:15It's been a tricky week for Theresa May -

1:03:15 > 1:03:16again, you might think.

1:03:16 > 1:03:18She's lost a Cabinet minister and been forced into a reshuffle

1:03:18 > 1:03:21which did little for party unity, to say nothing of losing a Commons

1:03:21 > 1:03:25vote on Brexit and yet more reports of fireworks in Cabinet meetings -

1:03:25 > 1:03:26this time apparently over housing.

1:03:26 > 1:03:29So, is the Prime Minister's time in office going with a bang

1:03:29 > 1:03:30or more of a whimper?

1:03:30 > 1:03:31Well, we sent Ellie Price

1:03:31 > 1:03:33and the entirely unscientific Sunday Politics moodbox

1:03:33 > 1:03:35to Conservative-held Surrey, to find out.

1:03:35 > 1:03:38ALL:Three, two, one.

1:03:38 > 1:03:44# Ignite the light and let it shine...#

1:03:45 > 1:03:48It's a tale of lit fuses, plots, conspiracy, treachery,

1:03:48 > 1:03:52but enough of the recent goings on in the Conservative Party,

1:03:52 > 1:03:56it's firework night here in Guildford and we're asking,

1:03:56 > 1:03:58does Theresa May have control of her Government and her party?

1:03:58 > 1:03:59Yes or no?

1:03:59 > 1:04:05# Baby you're a firework...#

1:04:05 > 1:04:07With all the scandals in Government at the moment

1:04:07 > 1:04:11and Brexit seems to be dragging on a little bit longer than we thought.

1:04:11 > 1:04:14So, at the moment, I don't think she is in control.

1:04:17 > 1:04:20She's too many people sniping at her back, really.

1:04:20 > 1:04:21Do you think Theresa May's in control?

1:04:21 > 1:04:23I think she's in control.

1:04:23 > 1:04:25She's in a good job having a tough time.

1:04:25 > 1:04:26No, I don't.

1:04:26 > 1:04:28I think she's a mess.

1:04:28 > 1:04:30Even when you read her body language when she's being interviewed

1:04:30 > 1:04:33by people, she doesn't seem like she's in control.

1:04:33 > 1:04:37I think she has poor advisers.

1:04:39 > 1:04:43I'm going to put it in the "yes".

1:04:43 > 1:04:46I do think she's struggling but, I still hope, still think she has

1:04:46 > 1:04:49a bit of a grip on them.

1:04:49 > 1:04:52The Queen is England's role.

1:04:52 > 1:04:54It's her birth right.

1:04:54 > 1:04:57She is England's role of this country.

1:04:57 > 1:05:00I'm going to vote for Theresa May.

1:05:00 > 1:05:03I don't think there's anyone who could do a better job.

1:05:03 > 1:05:06I think she's had a bit of a poisoned chalice with Brexit but

1:05:06 > 1:05:08I think she could have done better.

1:05:08 > 1:05:11The money's not going to where it needs to go.

1:05:11 > 1:05:12I think she should resign, really.

1:05:12 > 1:05:15I feel a bit sorry for her, actually.

1:05:15 > 1:05:17I think she's been witch-hunted a little bit.

1:05:17 > 1:05:20She's doing her best.

1:05:20 > 1:05:22With everything that's going on with the Cabinet at the

1:05:22 > 1:05:26moment, I think the Conservative Party is in a real mess, actually.

1:05:26 > 1:05:28Very disappointed.

1:05:28 > 1:05:34Well, you get bickering in all parts not just the Conservative Party.

1:05:34 > 1:05:36And that's just sort of par for the course.

1:05:36 > 1:05:39But I'm sure she'll hold everybody together

1:05:39 > 1:05:41despite the current difficulties.

1:05:41 > 1:05:43The Tories weren't in control when they had the referendum

1:05:43 > 1:05:46in the first place for the euro.

1:05:46 > 1:05:48We've had two years of complete chaos.

1:05:48 > 1:05:52I don't see an end to it.

1:05:52 > 1:05:54Well, I seem to have acquired a few new friends.

1:05:54 > 1:05:57The oohs and ahs are over and so the moodbox

1:05:57 > 1:06:01and the result is...

1:06:01 > 1:06:02No.

1:06:02 > 1:06:04The majority of people here in Guildford

1:06:04 > 1:06:06don't think Theresa May is in control.

1:06:07 > 1:06:11CHEERING

1:06:11 > 1:06:13That was Ellie with the entirely unscientific moodbox, and thanks

1:06:13 > 1:06:20to Bushy Hill Junior School in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:20 > 1:06:25Let's put the Sorbol question to our panel. Equally unscientific but all

1:06:25 > 1:06:27seasoned Westminster watchers. Is Theresa May in control of her

1:06:27 > 1:06:33Government at the moment or is all of this sex harassment allegations

1:06:33 > 1:06:37swimming around loosening her grip? Depends what you mean by in control.

1:06:37 > 1:06:44All Prime Ministers have a degree of control. They retain the power much

1:06:44 > 1:06:48tat wrongage as we saw with her reshuffle. Didn't go down well with

1:06:48 > 1:06:54her MPs but she did it. You can't be fully in control of these situations

1:06:54 > 1:06:56in effectively what is a hung Parliament. If she won a land sheep

1:06:56 > 1:07:00in the election she would have the authority to do what she wanted. She

1:07:00 > 1:07:04could float over something like this. Stories like this, you could

1:07:04 > 1:07:08say she's perfectly suited for it, the vicar's daughter, the church

1:07:08 > 1:07:12goer, to sort it out. It is much more complicated than that. I don't

1:07:12 > 1:07:16think she will be able to get a full grip of it. There are some practical

1:07:16 > 1:07:20things that need to happen that will happen. I remember with back to

1:07:20 > 1:07:25basics and John Major, that equally vague scandal, what was back to

1:07:25 > 1:07:30basics about? It was still running months afterwards, stories about a

1:07:30 > 1:07:34minister having an affair. This is different. I can see it will be

1:07:34 > 1:07:38impossible for her to fully get to grips with it.Does it provide an

1:07:38 > 1:07:41opportunity for Theresa May to be seen to be taking really serious

1:07:41 > 1:07:45action, trying to root out a bad culture in Westminster and therefore

1:07:45 > 1:07:49get some political credit for it? That opportunity was available to

1:07:49 > 1:07:55her all of last week and she hasn't taken it. What's remarkable for me

1:07:55 > 1:07:58is the near complete breakdown in discipline in the higher ranks the

1:07:58 > 1:08:03Tory Party. It is extraordinary you have Cabinet level ministers who are

1:08:03 > 1:08:07not supporting their colleagues. Ministers and former ministers

1:08:07 > 1:08:10giving interviews in which they slag off their former colleagues. It is

1:08:10 > 1:08:15an absolute unholy mess. There is no sense that she is gripping this. Or

1:08:15 > 1:08:19has any particular solution. I think we can have a lot of sympathy for

1:08:19 > 1:08:23her in terms of finding a solution. How on earth do you grip a problem

1:08:23 > 1:08:31like this where you're talking about apparently an indefinite period of

1:08:31 > 1:08:34retrospective examination of potential faults. 15 years is no

1:08:34 > 1:08:38longer too historic for somebody to dredge up some small thing that may

1:08:38 > 1:08:42or may not have happened to them. It is very difficult for her. But she's

1:08:42 > 1:08:49being battered around by events. Where does this story go next?I

1:08:49 > 1:08:53think the whip's office on every party, Tories, Labour, Liberal

1:08:53 > 1:08:56Democrats, SNP all have their own whipping operations. That seems to

1:08:56 > 1:09:01be the place of it really. This is because, where do we draw the line?

1:09:01 > 1:09:05Going forward what mechanisms are put in place to top this helping

1:09:05 > 1:09:09again. To take allegations seriously, report them and

1:09:09 > 1:09:14investigate them independently. Or is there a bigger job to go back

1:09:14 > 1:09:19into the past retrospective, who knew what when as Nia said about

1:09:19 > 1:09:23Kelvin Hopkins. This is a Shadow Defence Secretary saying what did

1:09:23 > 1:09:28the Labour Party leader know about Kelvin Hopkins' allegations when he

1:09:28 > 1:09:33promoted him? Theresa May is unable to do the retrospective bit. She's

1:09:33 > 1:09:38simply too weak. I asked this of Number Ten last week. Why are you

1:09:38 > 1:09:41not more front-foot the on this. They said they would be if they

1:09:41 > 1:09:45possibly could be. She's running a minority Government. She cannot be

1:09:45 > 1:09:50seen to be going after a witch-hunt on her own people. So, I think this

1:09:50 > 1:09:59goes on. Enof thebly what the whips new -- inevitably what the whips

1:09:59 > 1:10:07knew will be parment. Amber Rudd did the same thing on Andrew Marr.They

1:10:07 > 1:10:13are being precise about the fact they didn't know anything. Sarah

1:10:13 > 1:10:17Newton said she heard no allegations about her flock, the the MPs she was

1:10:17 > 1:10:24in charge of rather than rumours about any other Tories.Amber Rudd

1:10:24 > 1:10:29say, I do not recognise the more lurid allegations. What about the

1:10:29 > 1:10:33less lurid once? So, this smells very, very bad indeed.Jeremy

1:10:33 > 1:10:39Corbyn's going to have to answer some of these questions as well?

1:10:39 > 1:10:44Yeah, but the whip's thing is a red herring. Their remit is to get the

1:10:44 > 1:10:46vote out for the Government fundamentally. Everybody knows that.

1:10:46 > 1:10:50They are not there, it is one of the problems. They are not there to be

1:10:50 > 1:10:54moral guides to these MPs. They are there to win votes for the

1:10:54 > 1:10:59Government or the opposition if that becomes possible. And deal brutally

1:10:59 > 1:11:02with MPs to make sure they get out and vote. Of course they knew

1:11:02 > 1:11:07virtually everything. But whether they were obliged to act as moral

1:11:07 > 1:11:11guard yawns in these situations, I don't think they were. It was not

1:11:11 > 1:11:15part of their job. Maybe you need moral guardians in there but not the

1:11:15 > 1:11:20whips.Normally, less than three-weeks out from a budget that's

1:11:20 > 1:11:23what we'd been talking about. Dominating our conversation. Given

1:11:23 > 1:11:26that's set for November 22nd, is that an opportunity for the

1:11:26 > 1:11:31Government to seize back control of the story?Philip Hammond may be

1:11:31 > 1:11:35glad we're not spending too much time talking about the budget. It

1:11:35 > 1:11:39should be an opportunity for the Government to seize the agenda, draw

1:11:39 > 1:11:43a line under all of this. I think one of the very difficult as pects

1:11:43 > 1:11:47of this so-called scandal for the Government to manage is knowing

1:11:47 > 1:11:51quite how long it will run. In the normal scheme of things they lose

1:11:51 > 1:11:55steam after a couple of weeks. But there are so many potential gayses

1:11:55 > 1:12:00that could come out, it might run longer than that. Rather like the

1:12:00 > 1:12:03expenses scandal. But there is an opportunity at the budget to reset

1:12:03 > 1:12:08the' again da. I just don't think Philip Hammond will take it. I think

1:12:08 > 1:12:11he's a very caution Chancellor. At the moment, there is a feeling

1:12:11 > 1:12:17Theresa May's leadership is so weak it will be too dangerous for them to

1:12:17 > 1:12:22do anything particularly dram attic why. I expect a steady as you go

1:12:22 > 1:12:26budget where they will be hoping not to make any mistakes.You say there

1:12:26 > 1:12:32is disagreement in the Cabinet about what should be in the budget?

1:12:32 > 1:12:38Disagreement between the Chancellor and the Prime Minister. The

1:12:38 > 1:12:42witch-hunt is hiding a huge story which is the incredible dysfunction

1:12:42 > 1:12:45between Number Ten and number 11. Philip Hammond and Theresa May can't

1:12:45 > 1:12:50bear to be in the same room with each other let alone agreeing what's

1:12:50 > 1:12:54in the budget. It is coming down to housing. Everybody agrees it has to

1:12:54 > 1:13:00be the centrepiece of the budget. They have to get more houses built.

1:13:00 > 1:13:05Philip Hammond wands that bee deregulation. Theresa May wants to

1:13:05 > 1:13:08are borrow up to 50 billion merchandise more for the Government

1:13:08 > 1:13:09to build for themselves.

1:13:09 > 1:13:11That's all for today.

1:13:11 > 1:13:13There's no Sunday Politics next weekend

1:13:13 > 1:13:14while Parliament is in recess,

1:13:14 > 1:13:18but I'll be back here at 11am on BBC One in two weeks' time.

1:13:18 > 1:13:22Until then, bye bye.