:35:23. > :35:27.Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics in the South West. Coming
:35:27. > :35:31.Taking away free bus travel from pensioners, the leader of Cornwall
:35:32. > :35:34.Council will be here to defend his controversial proposal.
:35:35. > :35:37.This week we are joined by Anne- Marie Morris, the Conservative MP
:35:38. > :35:40.for Newton Abbot, and the Labour MP for Plymouth Moor View Alison
:35:41. > :35:42.Seabeck. Anne-Marie is currently on the look out for musicians in her
:35:43. > :35:45.constituency interested in entering the annual parliamentary music
:35:46. > :35:48.competition Rock the House. She has been rocking the house herself this
:35:48. > :35:57.week with a debate devoted to microbusinesses, a cause that is
:35:57. > :36:02.close to her heart. Not a great week for businesses for
:36:02. > :36:07.the economy with the GDP figures. They were disappointing but not
:36:07. > :36:14.disappointing. I think that we have to focus on what we do now to
:36:14. > :36:20.ensure that we keep this growth steadily growing. We need to ensure
:36:20. > :36:25.that we keep regulation, which is a real problem, and we need to see
:36:25. > :36:28.what we can do on the tax front. While the Prime Minister was
:36:28. > :36:37.defending pairs of figures, there was a tweed from Alison pointing
:36:37. > :36:42.out that Eton mess was being served. It is quite easy to point across
:36:42. > :36:47.the government benches and say that regardless of the eurozone crisis
:36:48. > :36:54.we have been making a better job of the economy. Yes, but that is not
:36:54. > :37:00.what we should be doing. I have worked behind the scenes and of
:37:00. > :37:06.what you have to do is ensure that you do not over promise. -- and
:37:06. > :37:10.what you have to do in his ensure that you do not over promise.
:37:10. > :37:17.Bodies like the IMF have concerns about the level of austerity
:37:17. > :37:21.measures which are being imposed on the British people. By the time I
:37:21. > :37:27.scurried across the road to get the Eton mess all of the meringue were
:37:27. > :37:31.gone. UN Tuesday, the Health Select
:37:31. > :37:36.Committee has said that -- on Tuesday, the Health Select
:37:36. > :37:40.Committee has said that his ability to safeguard its future is being
:37:40. > :37:43.compromised. The Lib Dem MP Andrew George is
:37:43. > :37:46.urging the government to listen to medics and their mounting
:37:46. > :37:50.opposition to the planned changes to the NHS. There has been hardly a
:37:50. > :37:52.day this week when the Health and Social Care Bill has not been in
:37:52. > :37:55.the headlines, with a critical report saying the overhaul was
:37:55. > :37:57.getting in the way of finding savings to safeguard the future of
:37:57. > :38:00.the service. The medical profession has been uniting in its opposition
:38:00. > :38:03.to health care changes but there is a feeling in Cornwall that
:38:03. > :38:09.ministers are not taking any notice. I do not have any trust in the
:38:09. > :38:13.government about the NHS. I say that varies subtly. Unfortunately -
:38:13. > :38:18.- I say that very sadly, because they have not been listening to the
:38:18. > :38:22.Royal College of Nurses or any of the GPs who are leading the reforms,
:38:22. > :38:26.and they certainly have not listened to patient. The NHS is
:38:26. > :38:31.going through the biggest reorganisation in its history.
:38:31. > :38:38.Under new plans, but it will be managed in local areas, a job that
:38:38. > :38:44.used to be done by primary care trusts. There will be competition
:38:44. > :38:53.from charity and private providers. At the same time, �20 billion in
:38:53. > :39:00.savings have to be found by 2015. Some patients believe it that
:39:00. > :39:08.digger will see to be played in commissioning the services. -- some
:39:08. > :39:13.patients believe that there needs to be more accountability when it
:39:13. > :39:18.comes to commissioning these services. But it is the idea of
:39:18. > :39:26.private sector in the NHS that were raised this doctor. The remain just
:39:26. > :39:30.of this Bill is -- the main gist of this Bill is that doctors will have
:39:30. > :39:35.concerns that this will lead to all sorts of inequalities and we are
:39:35. > :39:39.worried about services being fragmented and broken up and
:39:39. > :39:43.providers coming in and cherry- picking the best services.
:39:43. > :39:48.Ministers say they will safeguard against privatisation. They also
:39:48. > :39:53.say that financial pressures caused by a Labour and disapproval of
:39:53. > :39:59.pension changes are the real reasons for the backlash.
:39:59. > :40:03.The South West has been a focus for rebellion against the plans, what
:40:03. > :40:13.Adrian Sanders and Andrew George among cost only for her MPs against
:40:13. > :40:21.
:40:21. > :40:25.the Bill -- among cooler four MPs against the Bill. This is the
:40:25. > :40:30.largest amount of money we have ever had to cut from the NHS and we
:40:30. > :40:35.have to do more things and use less money but you need stability and
:40:35. > :40:38.uncertain -- certainty. You do not need to have a catastrophe going on
:40:39. > :40:44.in the NHS at the same time what the whole world being turned upside
:40:44. > :40:49.down. But despite backbench unease over
:40:49. > :40:55.the Bill, this week, David Cameron continued to defend it. The error
:40:55. > :41:00.thousands of GPs across the country -- the there are thousands of GPs
:41:00. > :41:03.across the country who are implementing these reforms. Last
:41:03. > :41:08.year Nick Clegg claimed victory after the Government backed down on
:41:08. > :41:12.some of the reforms. Next month, the Bill will return to the Lords,
:41:13. > :41:15.and attention will return to the Lib Dems to see if any of them will
:41:15. > :41:25.make renewed attempts to block the Bill.
:41:25. > :41:30.
:41:30. > :41:37.Emery, this is turning into a I do not think I would agree that
:41:37. > :41:41.this is a disaster. I think the real challenge to the NHS is that
:41:41. > :41:45.it is a centre at issue and we need to make sure that we communicate
:41:46. > :41:51.but we are doing in an appropriate way and that is one of the problems.
:41:51. > :41:55.I think that is why we are where we are. We have an ageing population
:41:55. > :42:00.and we have to make sure that we have an NHS for the future. A lot
:42:00. > :42:05.of people are saying it is not doing very badly and does not need
:42:05. > :42:10.to be turned upside down. reality is that the costs are
:42:10. > :42:14.soaring and there have been changes as far as what is available. We
:42:14. > :42:18.have an ageing population and if we do not address this now we will put
:42:18. > :42:23.ourselves in a difficult position for the future. When you talk about
:42:23. > :42:27.change, up most of the change is taking place. These new
:42:27. > :42:35.commissioning bodies are already there and working and a budget is
:42:35. > :42:40.being held by the PC 80s. If I can give you a personal example, I used
:42:40. > :42:44.to chair a committee when I was a councillor, and I used to find that
:42:45. > :42:48.having a PC tea meant that I did not get the same focus on the real
:42:48. > :42:56.local means that I believe these counselling groups can do at a
:42:56. > :43:00.reduced cost. Alison, Labour is the last -- Labour is saying the last
:43:00. > :43:07.thing the NHS needs his reorganisation. There is a lesson
:43:07. > :43:12.to be learned. We were saying this in the last Parliament. A number of
:43:12. > :43:17.people were saying that we do not need any more reorganisation and
:43:17. > :43:21.the Prime Minister felt the same way. He pledged that there would be
:43:21. > :43:26.no reorganisation and the first thing they did was re organise it
:43:26. > :43:36.at a time when the economy is in a downward spiral and morale is
:43:36. > :43:42.damaged. Morale is at rock-bottom. We are seeing waiting lists going
:43:42. > :43:49.up and we have bodies like the BMA and the Royal College of midwives,
:43:49. > :43:54.who I was only with this week, and they are all saying this is wrong.
:43:54. > :43:59.I suspect that when it is discussed in the house we will see very
:44:00. > :44:09.strong opposition to it from a number of different angles. I hope
:44:10. > :44:10.
:44:10. > :44:13.the Government does listen. Murray, Andrew George says that GPs
:44:14. > :44:19.are were accountable and the coalition was proposing elected
:44:19. > :44:27.board members who would be elected by the Government into primary care
:44:27. > :44:31.trusts. I think the answer is that they are not accountable. They are
:44:31. > :44:36.responsible to the overall commissioning Board. There is
:44:36. > :44:42.accountability and responsibility. At the end of the day, what are we
:44:42. > :44:49.trying to deliver? A good service that we can afford. We have got
:44:50. > :44:59.4,000 new GPs' and the waiting list time has come down. There has been
:45:00. > :45:00.
:45:00. > :45:06.some significant benefit. It has only been a few years since
:45:06. > :45:15.the over-60s bus pass was added to a list of life's certainties. But
:45:15. > :45:20.now there its an idea that there could be a charge of 50p per ride.
:45:20. > :45:26.Cornwall cows will's idea to charge pensioners 50 p per ride has were
:45:26. > :45:35.fired some. -- Cornwall Council. This is bad. It has to be stopped
:45:35. > :45:39.now. It will be back across the country if they get away with it.
:45:39. > :45:42.The free bus pass was brought in by Labour, and from the start,
:45:42. > :45:48.councillors from across the region have complained about its funding.
:45:48. > :45:51.Government initially said they would be funding this scheme. They
:45:51. > :45:57.have introduced a scheme that does not work and his leading places
:45:57. > :46:02.like Exeter very short. Now, in Devon and Dorset, councillors are
:46:02. > :46:07.having to cut around �1 million from their annual budgets.
:46:07. > :46:12.Transport campaigners have said that that is because funding has
:46:12. > :46:16.been cut by nearly one-third. Government cuts the funding and the
:46:16. > :46:22.it has been squeezed, the budget, and some ministers are saying they
:46:23. > :46:28.have had to put their hands into other parts of money which should
:46:28. > :46:32.be used to help fix roots and other parts of the transport service.
:46:32. > :46:37.Cornwall Council says it will have to start cutting bus services in
:46:37. > :46:41.two years' time unless it is a large -- allowed to charge
:46:41. > :46:46.pensioners 50p per ride. Some pensioners think it is a sensible
:46:46. > :46:51.idea. I would rather pay full fare and have a bus then lose a bus.
:46:51. > :46:56.Such tinkering with the over-60s scheme would need a change in the
:46:56. > :47:00.law, and that does not look likely. In East Yorkshire, a voluntary
:47:00. > :47:04.charge was tried out, but it did not work out. Ministers say that
:47:04. > :47:09.some councils are planning to deal with the cuts using a little bit at
:47:09. > :47:16.imagination, but it seems the, all idea is not quite what they are
:47:16. > :47:20.looking for. I understand the idea. It is not an unreasonable idea. We
:47:20. > :47:29.think we could put people off travelling by bus if we use this
:47:29. > :47:33.idea. The Government has just put �90 million into a national
:47:33. > :47:37.community transport fund and says that pensioners like Thomas need to
:47:37. > :47:42.be confident that the free bus pass they get today will be the same as
:47:42. > :47:48.they get next year. But others worry about how useful that pass
:47:48. > :47:51.will be if writs are shut down to pay for it. -- if it runs are shut
:47:51. > :47:59.down. We cannot speak to the reader of
:47:59. > :48:04.Cornwell Council. One man said -- we can now speak to the leader of
:48:04. > :48:07.Cornwall Council. One man said this was mad and bad. This was a
:48:07. > :48:17.suggestion that came from the very pensioners who were using these
:48:17. > :48:17.
:48:17. > :48:21.buses. How representative is this group? The big question in people's
:48:21. > :48:26.minds, knowing that the government funding is coming down to support
:48:26. > :48:31.this scheme, is that bus routes are threatened. People do not want to
:48:31. > :48:34.lose theirs. What is the point of a free bus pass it there is no bus to
:48:35. > :48:40.use it on? We are hearing this from all over the country, that people
:48:40. > :48:48.would rather pay a small amount they have no bass. What do you make
:48:48. > :48:52.of your own government's answer to this? We have to use all of the
:48:52. > :48:56.imagination and solve this in different ways. We are suggesting a
:48:56. > :49:01.pilot scheme at the moment. It does not look as though it will happen,
:49:01. > :49:05.does it? We will be pushing for it. There is a strong argument to keep
:49:05. > :49:12.pushing for it because Cornwall is in a stronger position than most
:49:12. > :49:19.local authorities. We sat a four your budget strategy and we have
:49:19. > :49:22.put money into reserves. We will be using reserves to support our bus
:49:22. > :49:27.services in the short term for the next two years. That is exactly
:49:27. > :49:32.what we are going to do. Government is not very welcoming of
:49:32. > :49:39.this proposal. Emery, you have got local government experience. There
:49:39. > :49:45.is no doubt that you sympathise. Is the government right to say that
:49:45. > :49:52.they should use their imagination? I think they should go away and
:49:52. > :49:55.think about it. The honest answer is that we are in different times
:49:55. > :50:03.and have a significant that that we have to deal with and we have to be
:50:03. > :50:08.creative. There has been a lot of cross working in Devon between the
:50:08. > :50:12.local authority and local charities and local people. I think there are
:50:12. > :50:19.creative ways. The Isle of Wight has come up with a very creative
:50:19. > :50:24.way. This is creative. Yes, it is creative, and I empathise with what
:50:24. > :50:30.people are saying. But I just feel that you could not differentiate
:50:30. > :50:37.between those in need and those not in need. If I was going to do
:50:37. > :50:44.something on a voluntary basis, I would create a charity. There could
:50:44. > :50:48.be a bus pot. I know it has been tried in other areas. There had
:50:48. > :50:53.been a areas that have tried it and have not been allowed to continue.
:50:53. > :50:57.This will have to be addressed in a number of ways. We will be able to
:50:57. > :51:01.buy some time in Cornwall to be creative. We need to roll out
:51:01. > :51:06.community schemes. Other authorities will not be able to do
:51:06. > :51:11.that. They do not have at the level of reserves and they have not
:51:11. > :51:15.budgeted the way that we have. I see bus services Britain all over
:51:15. > :51:18.the country, particularly in areas that will affect the coalition
:51:18. > :51:22.government, and I think the Government will have to look at all
:51:22. > :51:27.of the options. The primary legislation at the moment is too
:51:27. > :51:35.restrictive. Another localism agenda, we should be allowing local
:51:35. > :51:39.people to find their own solutions. Before the recession, Labour
:51:39. > :51:44.brought in an agenda at that authorities said, the Government
:51:44. > :51:50.has given us the responsibility but not the money. If it was an
:51:50. > :51:55.affordable then it will be an affordable now. Local authorities
:51:55. > :52:05.and pensioners are Between a Rock and a hard place on this one. They
:52:05. > :52:07.
:52:07. > :52:13.have had their tax benefits cast -- cut. It will hit some areas hardest.
:52:13. > :52:17.Pensioners and charities like a UK are deeply worried. I understand
:52:17. > :52:26.why you were thinking about this. But this will hit the most of
:52:26. > :52:31.marble and poorest the hardest. I would be surprised if the treasurer
:52:31. > :52:41.changed his mind. We will have to look for exemptions where we can.
:52:41. > :52:56.
:52:56. > :52:59.Now for a round-up of the political week in 60 seconds.
:52:59. > :53:02.And the Academy of Royal Medical Colleges is holding a summit. We
:53:02. > :53:04.have It's been a thoroughly energised Week as the South West
:53:04. > :53:06.was declared Britain's first Marine Energy Park.
:53:06. > :53:08.Anti-nuclear campaigners have been getting their teeth into plans to
:53:08. > :53:11.expand Hinkley Point. The sun broke through for people
:53:11. > :53:14.hoping to get generous subsidies to generate solar power. The
:53:14. > :53:17.government wanted to slash the payments by half from last December.
:53:17. > :53:19.Now the Appeal Court says the Energy Minister will have to think
:53:19. > :53:22.again. Or will he? We were disappointed with this result,
:53:22. > :53:24.clearly. The Secretary of State is now clear that we will take this to
:53:24. > :53:27.the Supreme Court. The economic prospect was decidedly
:53:27. > :53:29.cloudy as the Centre for Cities declared Plymouth one of the worst
:53:29. > :53:31.places in the country for losing private sector jobs.
:53:31. > :53:38.In Exeter, though, one of the city's oldest trades,
:53:38. > :53:48.ecclesiastical tailoring, proved it's still as vibrant as ever.
:53:48. > :53:50.
:53:50. > :53:57.have been having a clerical fashion crisis!
:53:57. > :54:01.But about the way this has been handled, Anne Marie? I believe that
:54:01. > :54:05.this is a great scheme but the way it was handled in terms of the
:54:05. > :54:11.termination at such short did us, I agree with you... It should have
:54:11. > :54:15.been foreseen. It could have been done the from the. We need to get
:54:15. > :54:21.help for energy because it has to be one of the most important
:54:21. > :54:28.sources going for it to solve our problem. Labour set it up, should
:54:28. > :54:31.they have foreseen that this would have been unaffordable? I think
:54:31. > :54:37.governments always have a responsibility to look for word
:54:37. > :54:45.when it comes to the cost of a programme. It is an incredibly
:54:45. > :54:51.valuable programme. There have been small set-ups and some large
:54:51. > :54:54.proposals. I am surprised that the Government is going to spend even
:54:54. > :55:01.more tax payer money on taking this right to the bitter end, to the
:55:01. > :55:04.wire. I think it makes more sense now to say, let's go with it,