:01:31. > :01:35.In the South West. The law says this Cornwall Hotel should welcome
:01:35. > :01:45.homosexual couples. The report from upper lip grip of Christian MP says
:01:45. > :01:45.
:01:45. > :31:22.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1777 seconds
:31:22. > :31:25.Has no, I am Lucie Fisher, coming up on the Sunday Politics in the
:31:25. > :31:28.South West. The Christian MP fighting back
:31:28. > :31:34.against recent decisions, which she says have been unfair to people of
:31:34. > :31:38.faith. Lots of these decisions are been made by police officers or
:31:38. > :31:44.judges or employers, who have no understanding whatsoever of people
:31:44. > :31:48.of faith and the faith motivator. I will be joined by Anne Marie
:31:48. > :31:53.Morris, the Conservative MP for Newton Abbott and Ben Bradshaw, the
:31:53. > :31:59.Labour MP for Exeter. This week, a report is out
:31:59. > :32:02.suggesting that Christians are been marginalised. Then, you are a
:32:02. > :32:07.Christian and you are on the ecclesiastical committee in
:32:07. > :32:14.Parliament. How do you feel? I feel I can practise my fate. You saw the
:32:14. > :32:18.Queen making a faith extolling the virtues of the Church. I think
:32:18. > :32:23.there are some Christians, perhaps the more conservative Christians,
:32:23. > :32:28.who have problems with some of modern Britain, in particularly
:32:28. > :32:34.with hour a quality legislation. I hope they will get over it. Anne
:32:34. > :32:42.Marie, what is your view? I share then stew on this. I do not feel
:32:42. > :32:45.marginalised. This report is looking at how Christians feel
:32:45. > :32:49.internally. It is an opportunity for Christians to look externally
:32:49. > :32:54.about what they can do in society and how they can be relevant to the
:32:54. > :32:58.community. That is more worthwhile than too much introspection. Much
:32:58. > :33:02.more on that later. The Coalition's plan to find jobs
:33:02. > :33:07.for the unemployed, suffered another blow this week from one of
:33:07. > :33:10.its own ministers. A leaked letter from defence minister Nick Harvey,
:33:10. > :33:17.revealed his concern that an agency which delivers the Work Programme
:33:17. > :33:22.in his constituency was about to go bankrupt. Getting their hands dirty.
:33:22. > :33:27.The young apprentices at this recycling centre work for the
:33:27. > :33:30.charity groundwork. The charity is one of many helping to deliver the
:33:30. > :33:34.government's Work Programme, which targets the long-term unemployed.
:33:34. > :33:41.Some charities are claiming that the scheme is not delivering for
:33:41. > :33:51.them. The financial problems facing this charity was the subject of a
:33:51. > :33:52.
:33:52. > :33:56.letter from Nick Harvey to implement Mr Chris Grayling. There
:33:56. > :34:01.is a real worry that the companies are cherry-picking. They are
:34:01. > :34:05.holding back the people they think they can place quite easily and
:34:05. > :34:10.giving the people who are a long way from the labour market to local
:34:10. > :34:15.charities to sort out. Local people taking part in the programme are
:34:15. > :34:19.referred on to two large service providers. Depending on their
:34:19. > :34:22.location or needs, some are referred on to sub-contractors and
:34:22. > :34:27.these are often charities and voluntary organisations.
:34:27. > :34:30.Contractors are only paid once a person has been placed in a
:34:30. > :34:37.programme for six months. It is designed as an incentive for
:34:37. > :34:42.providers to get people into work. It is difficult for charities, so
:34:42. > :34:46.we have to be businesslike and smart about how we deliver this. We
:34:46. > :34:52.work very hard beforehand to work out what our cash flow would be for
:34:52. > :34:58.a year before we start to get paid. It has cost us a lot of money to do
:34:58. > :35:03.it, but we hope the returns will help us to reinvest more money into
:35:03. > :35:07.our charitable objectives. Adam Smith was on a work programme and
:35:07. > :35:12.now has an apprenticeship. The training he has received were
:35:12. > :35:18.hoping -- will help them to secure work. I am �100 more confident that
:35:18. > :35:22.I was before I did this. I was not confident before. I do not know
:35:22. > :35:26.where I would be without this opportunity. The Employment
:35:26. > :35:30.Minister was in Truro this week and seemed to shrug off the criticisms
:35:30. > :35:36.levelled at him. The voluntary sector is doing fine across the
:35:36. > :35:40.South West. I have visited charities like Groundwork South
:35:40. > :35:44.West which is doing great work. I have talked to a volunteer centre
:35:44. > :35:49.about their work programme and I am comfortable with the role that the
:35:49. > :35:54.voluntary sector is plain. Critics argue that some organisations are
:35:54. > :36:00.under resource to shoulder the cause -- the cost of training. The
:36:00. > :36:04.success of this government scheme could not be more important. He
:36:04. > :36:09.this is the flagship government policy and here we have a
:36:09. > :36:12.government minister saying it is in trouble. Should we be worried?
:36:12. > :36:16.have Chris Grayling scene it is not in serious trouble. What makes me
:36:16. > :36:21.sad is we are detracting from the important issue and the Work
:36:21. > :36:26.Programme is a great way of getting people into employment. If it
:36:26. > :36:34.works? Some ministers are saying it is not working. The that is a fair
:36:34. > :36:38.point. If you clip showed there was no payment until six months in.
:36:38. > :36:42.There is a payment up front and another payment at six months and
:36:42. > :36:48.then over the next two years, their payments depending on the nature of
:36:48. > :36:52.the programme. If there are sub- contractors are who are not
:36:52. > :36:56.properly been respected by the main contractor, there are issues that
:36:56. > :37:01.need to be addressed. Chris Grayling said he would not address
:37:01. > :37:06.this. He does not think this needs to be looked into. The charities
:37:06. > :37:09.are saying it does need to be looked into. He is saying that the
:37:09. > :37:13.mechanisms are there, it is insuring that their work properly.
:37:13. > :37:18.It has not been clear that this is a flexible programme and that is
:37:18. > :37:22.one of the distinctions between this and the previous government
:37:22. > :37:26.programme. We do need to insure that sub-contractors are properly
:37:26. > :37:33.supported, but that can be done within the present system. Let us
:37:33. > :37:38.bring them in here. Would you agree? And not at all. The work
:37:38. > :37:43.programme is in real trouble. It is not just people like Nick Harvey
:37:43. > :37:47.who is putting criticisms in a letter. If you have a problem with
:37:47. > :37:51.government policy, usually talk to someone. We have some of the major
:37:51. > :37:58.employers threatening to withdraw from the programme in the last few
:37:58. > :38:07.weeks and the government having to rethink it. You have the scandal at
:38:07. > :38:10.the employment... Or all sorts of problems. I hope that Chris
:38:10. > :38:15.Grayling doors listen to some of these valid criticisms to improve
:38:15. > :38:19.the scheme. What about your own constituents, have you heard
:38:19. > :38:23.complaint? The charity that featured in a car the's letter also
:38:24. > :38:28.operates in my constituency and it was my office that received this
:38:28. > :38:32.letter in a brown on the look. Whether that was deliberate,
:38:32. > :38:38.because of the impact on my constituents... There is a problem
:38:38. > :38:42.in the west Country which Nick Harvey's letter highlights, like
:38:42. > :38:45.low wage economies, these charities and enterprises have a great record
:38:45. > :38:52.at getting people into work and they are threatened with going to
:38:52. > :39:02.the wall. Have you heard any complaints? Every one is happy. Ben
:39:02. > :39:03.
:39:03. > :39:07.is confusing the issue. I have had no complaints.
:39:07. > :39:10.Should people who run businesses be allowed to use their religious
:39:10. > :39:14.beliefs as grounds for rejecting customers who are gay? That is one
:39:14. > :39:18.of the questions considered by a report from a group of Christian
:39:18. > :39:22.MPs in Parliament. It says the judgment, which and against the
:39:22. > :39:25.hotel owners in Marazion was unfair. It recommends that the quality lot
:39:25. > :39:30.has changed and calls for more education about the role of
:39:30. > :39:37.Christianity in Britain's political life. Critics say the report is
:39:37. > :39:41.confused and can look to the erosion of basic human rights. This
:39:41. > :39:45.hotel is at the centre of a row over religious freedom. The
:39:45. > :39:50.Christian couple who run it refused a gay couple a double room. The
:39:50. > :39:54.courts have twice ruled this was the discrimination. But Peter Bull
:39:54. > :40:00.and Hazelmary Bull believe sex outside marriage is a sin and argue
:40:00. > :40:04.their rule applies to any a married couple. What happened today was a
:40:04. > :40:09.collision of two lifestyles. I would have thought in this country,
:40:09. > :40:14.our democratic society he is big enough to be able to encompass two
:40:14. > :40:17.different lifestyles. I do not want to see a return to the days of
:40:17. > :40:21.persecution and oppression that certain groups in our society
:40:21. > :40:26.suffer, but I would like to make sure that we are not going to
:40:26. > :40:30.exchange it one lot of oppression for another. Judges told the couple
:40:30. > :40:35.that religious belief does not offer exemption from equality laws
:40:35. > :40:38.that businesses have to follow. This has angered some Christians.
:40:38. > :40:43.Then MP lead report is claiming that what happened to the couple
:40:43. > :40:47.who owned the hotel was unfair. There are calls for changes to the
:40:47. > :40:52.law. The inquiry was set up after an number of high profile at
:40:52. > :41:02.religious freedom cases. Across party group heard from dozens of
:41:02. > :41:12.
:41:12. > :41:16.mostly Christian groups on the case South West Devon MP he chairs
:41:16. > :41:21.Christians and Parliament. He says that the owners should have won
:41:21. > :41:26.their case and thinks the law needs tweaking. There is a problem with
:41:26. > :41:29.the a quality act. It was introduced in 2010 in a hurry. It
:41:30. > :41:35.lists a number of protected groups, but does not say what happens when
:41:35. > :41:41.those groups are clashing with each other. What happened in the last
:41:41. > :41:44.few years is almost as if people of, sexual orientation have been given
:41:44. > :41:49.a trump card which trumps everything else and that was never
:41:49. > :41:53.the intention of the Act. Critics are accusing the MP of trying to
:41:53. > :41:57.turn back the advance of a quality. He seems to want to try this back
:41:57. > :42:02.to a place we were before. We have made a lot of progress and got rid
:42:02. > :42:07.of a lot of horrible things. The findings of this report would be
:42:07. > :42:11.putting us back in that direction. Another case in the report is the
:42:11. > :42:15.High Court ruling on formal prayers at Bedford Town Council in Devon.
:42:15. > :42:19.It is seen as another example of Christians being squeezed out of
:42:19. > :42:23.public life. The government is stepping in, scene councils will be
:42:23. > :42:29.given the power to decide from themselves. Those bringing the case
:42:29. > :42:34.are not happy about the argument. The let us not forget that Britain
:42:34. > :42:39.can be proud of the freedom of religion that it extends to
:42:39. > :42:47.everyone in this country almost probably the best country in the
:42:47. > :42:52.world and the I think that the MP is trying to impose religion on
:42:52. > :42:56.other people when he should not be. Gary Streeter says his committee
:42:56. > :43:01.intends to take the inquiry further to hear the opinions of other faith
:43:01. > :43:05.groups and minorities. Back in West Cornwall, Hazelmary Bull says it
:43:05. > :43:10.some are been seen as more equal than others they are prepared to
:43:10. > :43:16.take their fight back to the courts for a third time.
:43:16. > :43:22.We are joined now by the Ravenhill from Clement -- Plymouth Methodist
:43:23. > :43:27.Community Hall. Do you agree that the law is unfair. I think there is
:43:27. > :43:32.a strong bias. People feel that the dice is weighted against Christians,
:43:32. > :43:36.when it two issues are weighed one against the other, they feel the
:43:36. > :43:44.dice is weighted against the Christian. Were examples can you
:43:44. > :43:48.give me? In a secular society, as the report said, there is a
:43:48. > :43:53.religious illiteracy among people who have decisions to make. The do
:43:53. > :43:58.not understand how Christians feel, what makes them take. The Christian
:43:58. > :44:05.faith is increasingly seen as a hobby that people enjoy doing. It
:44:05. > :44:09.is what we are. It is our whole being. When you are a Christian, it
:44:09. > :44:13.shakes everything. The idea that been a Christian it should be a
:44:13. > :44:19.private occupation and not in Athlone should judgments at all is
:44:19. > :44:24.quite foreign to us. Ben Bradshaw, turning to the case of the hotel
:44:24. > :44:29.owners. What is your view? Should she be allowed to deny it a service
:44:29. > :44:36.to customers on the basis that their belief that has not agree
:44:36. > :44:39.with yours? I welcomed the legal raining in that case. By and for
:44:39. > :44:43.freedom of religion and freedom of faith and freedom to practise my
:44:43. > :44:47.face. That freedom cannot impinge on the fundamental human rights of
:44:47. > :44:51.others. We have a quality legislation and we do not
:44:51. > :44:55.discriminate against gay couples. If you want to provide goods and
:44:55. > :45:03.services, you have to obey the law. As a Christian, I fear that is the
:45:03. > :45:08.right decision. A Anne Marie, do you agree with this? Both need to
:45:08. > :45:13.be looked at equally. I share them's view. We need to remember
:45:13. > :45:18.that the couple in question were in business. It is not a said it was
:45:18. > :45:22.their private home. The challenge here is not the legislation, it is
:45:22. > :45:27.the way it is interpreted. There are some challenges to get the
:45:27. > :45:32.judiciary to take a more balanced approach. Do you believe there is a
:45:32. > :45:40.case that if the hotel owners were Muslim or seek or Hindu, this would
:45:40. > :45:45.be treated differently? In terms of their perception? Inevitably.
:45:45. > :45:54.Because 44 million people in this country are Christians, there is a
:45:54. > :46:02.greater sensitivity. Do I think they are they are right? Know. It
:46:02. > :46:08.has to be equal. If the Muslims had stopped a single woman, it is about
:46:08. > :46:12.the national law. I love we live in a Christian country, but we also
:46:12. > :46:18.have a lot that respects other faiths. That law is based on
:46:18. > :46:26.quality. I think that is a Christian principles. Reverend Paul
:46:26. > :46:36.Smith which you agree with that? feel there is a growing feeling
:46:36. > :46:37.
:46:37. > :46:45.amongst Christians that the equality legislation takes Muslims
:46:45. > :46:51.are seriously. Or other faiths. Or secularism. Does it take him far
:46:51. > :46:58.more seriously and given more credit than the Christian faith.
:46:58. > :47:03.The law has to make a point. Were the case had been brought if the
:47:03. > :47:10.owners had been Muslims? People are perhaps more sensitive to the use
:47:10. > :47:14.of other religions then? Absolutely. At group of young Muslim men have
:47:14. > :47:19.just been prosecuted for distributing homophobic literature.
:47:19. > :47:25.You cannot say that. The case is not about homophobia. It is about
:47:25. > :47:35.the rights of conscience of individual people. Thank you. Our
:47:35. > :47:38.
:47:38. > :47:42.regular round-up of the political week. Paul Conroy has been rescued
:47:42. > :47:47.from Syria. The Prime Minister praised his courage and those who
:47:47. > :47:51.help to get him out. Many of whom have paid a high price. Lib Dems
:47:51. > :47:55.worried about regional pay in the public sector call for a report
:47:55. > :48:00.into the impact it would have on Torbay's economy. Animal-welfare
:48:00. > :48:07.groups launched a legal challenge over the badger cull. They say the
:48:07. > :48:11.plan to control TB breaks European regulations.
:48:11. > :48:15.Drivers on the Isles of Scilly are to benefit from a five pence
:48:15. > :48:21.discount on fuel. Danny Alexander said rural motorists elsewhere
:48:21. > :48:29.should not get their hopes up. is for this area. We are pleased we
:48:29. > :48:33.are benefiting them. This children's Playhouse on Dartmoor
:48:33. > :48:43.has to move. The National Park Authority says it breaks planning
:48:43. > :48:44.
:48:44. > :48:47.rules. That was our round-up. Ben Bradshaw,
:48:48. > :48:52.concerns and Torbay about introducing regional pay. Should
:48:52. > :48:57.public sector workers in the South West's suffer pay cuts as a result
:48:57. > :49:02.of trying to even out the paid? Know. That would be a bad move for
:49:02. > :49:07.the economy in the South West. If it happened, our wages would be cut,
:49:07. > :49:11.because private sector pay here is relatively low. We already have the
:49:11. > :49:17.biggest gap between what people earn and house prices, so it would
:49:17. > :49:21.make the house price affordability problem worse. This is an idea that
:49:21. > :49:26.George Osborne raised at the last Budget and I hope he drops it at
:49:26. > :49:33.the next Budget. The were due supported? We need to look at it.
:49:33. > :49:38.If there is any suggestion that people take pay cuts, we need to
:49:38. > :49:42.recognise a... The private sector earn less. To even that out, you
:49:42. > :49:46.would have to give the public sector less money. That is all
:49:46. > :49:51.about implementation. That is something you do every time. You do
:49:51. > :49:56.not suddenly give people a pay cut. You do have to look at it to get
:49:56. > :50:02.the balance right. We have high a housing costs, but some other costs
:50:02. > :50:06.are lower. The salary house to meet the cost. We need to look at that.
:50:06. > :50:11.There is speculation that it in the South West it would not necessarily
:50:11. > :50:15.fall, because public sector pay is relatively low. It would be done on
:50:15. > :50:20.the basis of what you have to be able to meet with that sum of money.
:50:20. > :50:25.It is a fair point. If housing costs are lower, you should be paid
:50:25. > :50:30.slightly less. They are not law. They are the highest in the country
:50:31. > :50:34.compared with wages. Transport costs, a lot of people rely on cars
:50:34. > :50:38.and petrol costs have reached record levels. You either but wages
:50:38. > :50:42.up in London and the South East and the Chancellor will not
:50:42. > :50:47.recommending that, or you put them down in areas like the South West
:50:47. > :50:50.were private sector wages are lower. I think it is a bad idea. I'm
:50:50. > :50:57.amazed the Liberal Democrats did not stop it coming out in the first