:01:28. > :01:32.In the south-west: People worried health reform will mean a health
:01:32. > :01:42.care gets worse. And the master craftsman at the
:01:42. > :01:42.
:01:42. > :31:53.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1811 seconds
:31:53. > :31:59.Welcome to Sunday Politics. Coming up: The immigration rules force a
:31:59. > :32:02.craftsman to stocktaking pupils. My guests -- My guests this week
:32:03. > :32:05.bring together two of the region's glorious uplands. The Labour peer
:32:05. > :32:07.Ann Mallalieu, long-term resident of Exmoor, president of the
:32:08. > :32:10.Countryside Alliance and once described by the Daily Mail as a
:32:10. > :32:13.Brigitte Bardot look-alike, and Dan Rogerson, the Liberal Democrat MP
:32:13. > :32:23.for North Cornwall and chairman of the All Party Parliamentary Cheese
:32:23. > :32:24.
:32:24. > :32:29.Group. As I have the President of the Countryside Alliance, I would
:32:29. > :32:34.like to talk briefly about this free vote to a peel the have -- the
:32:34. > :32:39.hunting ban. The Government is vague about when it will happen.
:32:39. > :32:44.People with in the hunting community are saying, they do not
:32:44. > :32:54.want it? They have done the sums and they think you will lose.
:32:54. > :32:54.
:32:54. > :32:58.think the figures are tight. It is not sure one way or the other. I do
:32:58. > :33:05.think there will come a time... Would you like it in this
:33:05. > :33:11.Parliament? Yes. As soon as possible. Every minute that act is
:33:11. > :33:16.out, time is being wasted, animal cruelty has increased and I hope
:33:16. > :33:25.there will be evidence of that MPs will look at. People are being
:33:25. > :33:32.unjustly pursued and followed. this was a Conservative pledge. I
:33:32. > :33:39.know you want a ban. Would you like to finish hunting for good? This is
:33:39. > :33:45.something I approach with an open mind. I went on a hunt one day. It
:33:45. > :33:51.was not the most exciting afternoon. I have looked at the situation, the
:33:51. > :33:58.dire prophecies. That has not happened. So you are not fast?
:33:58. > :34:03.think if there is a vote, the ban will stay. -- bothered. The NHS
:34:03. > :34:08.reforms have dominated the news for another week. It is easy to forget
:34:08. > :34:12.this is a health and social care bill. Providing social care is an
:34:12. > :34:16.enormous challenge, particularly here in the south-west with the
:34:17. > :34:20.elderly population. One part of Devon was held up as a shining
:34:20. > :34:24.example of successfully integrating clinical and social care. It is
:34:24. > :34:31.based on a structure which seems bound to disappear if the
:34:31. > :34:36.Government's reforms become law. My cooker has been raised so I can
:34:36. > :34:42.could easily. Mindy she appel has been able to keep our independence
:34:42. > :34:47.despite her mobility problems because of adaptations like these.
:34:47. > :34:51.Suffering from depression, angina, arthritis and asthma, she needs
:34:51. > :34:56.help from the NHS and social care services which are traditionally
:34:56. > :35:00.provided by separate bodies. She feels she has benefited from a
:35:00. > :35:07.joined up way of working which is being piloted in Torbay. You will
:35:07. > :35:12.get somebody who will come from occupational therapy and she will
:35:12. > :35:22.know somebody else that could help me in another area. You start off
:35:22. > :35:27.
:35:27. > :35:32.with one person and then you have everybody. It is brilliant. Under
:35:32. > :35:36.the scheme, the care trust received a budget from the NHS and the local
:35:36. > :35:42.authority to buy services for residents. Both health and social
:35:42. > :35:46.care staff work from that same building, providing a contact point
:35:46. > :35:51.for residents and means home helpers are able to work closely
:35:51. > :35:55.together to provide the services needed. A recent Health Select
:35:56. > :35:59.Committee report says Torbay Integrated Care Project has bought
:35:59. > :36:05.benefits. These include fewer emergency admissions, shorter stays
:36:05. > :36:08.in hospital and fewer delayed discharges. But the report also
:36:08. > :36:12.highlights concerns raised by Torbay Council that their
:36:13. > :36:17.partnership working will be diminished by the imminent health
:36:17. > :36:24.reforms. Some Liberal Democrats are also sceptical about the changes.
:36:24. > :36:29.The health reforms actually make the creation of a single body more
:36:29. > :36:33.difficult. The reforms are not going to help the process of
:36:33. > :36:37.achieving efficiencies the Government want to achieve. In the
:36:37. > :36:41.new NHS, it will not be possible for one body to buy or commission
:36:41. > :36:45.both health and social care services. Health ministers say this
:36:45. > :36:50.question of structure is not important but the real lesson to be
:36:50. > :36:55.learnt from debate is about culture and behaviour within the
:36:55. > :37:01.organisation. Dr Sarah Wollaston agrees. Residents in Torbay will
:37:01. > :37:07.agreed -- will continue to enjoy a joined up service. There is a real
:37:07. > :37:13.commitment from the authority, a real commitment from the Torbay
:37:13. > :37:23.Care Trust and the GPs to carry this work on. It is so important.
:37:23. > :37:24.
:37:24. > :37:34.not everyone is so optimistic. we are getting is silent working --
:37:34. > :37:35.
:37:35. > :37:39.so are working. Policies are developed and it is back room
:37:39. > :37:43.working. Mindy's experience of joined-up working has been positive
:37:43. > :37:47.and few would argue against the principles of integrating health
:37:47. > :37:51.and social care. The real contentions are over whether the
:37:51. > :37:56.reforms will deliver the organisational structures to allow
:37:56. > :38:05.what Mindy has benefited from to continue.
:38:05. > :38:12.Dan, the Health Minister said the tour they set-up was an experiment
:38:12. > :38:17.which did not get out of a lab. It seems to suggest it did not work.
:38:17. > :38:23.Bringing the two things together is where we want to be. It is the
:38:23. > :38:28.question of how it happens. It is just one model. If you look at
:38:28. > :38:32.Cornwall, we have hubs where professionals from health and
:38:32. > :38:40.social care work together without being in one institution. I suspect
:38:40. > :38:44.as proposals move forward, that will allow a councillors to be
:38:44. > :38:50.represented and to set strategic plans for health and social care
:38:50. > :38:55.across an area and those who are being commissioned to provide will
:38:55. > :38:59.have to work within that sector. They do not need to be in one
:38:59. > :39:07.building. It could be more integrated. Another point the
:39:07. > :39:12.minister made, he said the lesson from Torbay was not structure or
:39:12. > :39:16.cultural. But we should talk to each other. If you apply that to
:39:16. > :39:22.the NHS reforms, you would not be turning the whole thing upside down.
:39:22. > :39:26.You would just say talk to each other. There are two aspects to
:39:27. > :39:30.this. Who delivers it and who commissions it. You need to bring
:39:30. > :39:34.decommissioning together so there is a vision for health and care.
:39:34. > :39:38.When it comes to delivery, I have constituents who are happy with the
:39:38. > :39:43.set-up and those who are not. They might want to go somewhere else. It
:39:43. > :39:53.is giving them the opportunity to get the service which they want.
:39:53. > :39:57.Your government set up this pilot. Would you continue? Certainly. The
:39:57. > :40:01.Health Bill is being kept afloat by the Liberal Democrats. They paused
:40:01. > :40:04.it. They have decided for reasons of their own which are unclear to
:40:04. > :40:09.me that the Bill is going to continue. Every amendment was
:40:09. > :40:14.defeated this week. The Government had its way. That bill will reach
:40:14. > :40:18.the statute book because of the Liberal Democrat support. It will
:40:18. > :40:23.set one group of doctors against another. I cannot understand why
:40:23. > :40:27.anyone would think it is good practice to let people go out,
:40:27. > :40:35.imply a -- employee their own commissioning agents, by their own
:40:35. > :40:39.medicine when a group can buy things at a more advantageous rate.
:40:39. > :40:45.Torbay is doing something addressing that. They are bringing
:40:45. > :40:50.things together in cutting out layers of telephoning and then you
:40:50. > :40:53.get passed on. Integrating the whole service. Torbay is an example
:40:53. > :40:57.of what ought to be happening throughout the Health Service
:40:57. > :41:03.throughout the country. I think it is a tragedy the attempts to put
:41:03. > :41:09.things right a going to make things worse. It is a staggering thing to
:41:09. > :41:14.say that what was happening was integration. When I looked at what
:41:14. > :41:21.happened in Cornwell, we had increasing involvement in the
:41:21. > :41:27.private sector with attractive contracts for the private sector
:41:27. > :41:32.whether they carried the work out or not. This way is more
:41:32. > :41:36.transparent and it is a level playing field. We want a better
:41:36. > :41:42.deal rather than just handed over to the private sector. A large part
:41:42. > :41:48.of the most important people, in particular the doctors, do not see
:41:48. > :41:52.your way. If you produce reforms which produce this level of
:41:52. > :41:56.disquiet, you really ought to stop and look again and see what you're
:41:56. > :42:01.doing. The Lib Dems started doing and pours the bill. Now they have
:42:01. > :42:05.given in. Since they left office, Labour
:42:05. > :42:08.politicians have admitted they did not do enough to address
:42:08. > :42:13.immigration. The coalition has forged ahead with policies to bring
:42:13. > :42:16.her immigration levels down. For some, it is having unpleasant side-
:42:16. > :42:21.effects. Language schools have already protested about the damage
:42:21. > :42:31.the rules are doing to them. Johnny Rutherford has been talking to a
:42:31. > :42:35.
:42:35. > :42:40.different kind of businessman. Passion, enthusiasm, commitment,
:42:41. > :42:44.determination and creativity are said to ooze out of this workshop.
:42:44. > :42:50.There are no traditional examinations, these students learn
:42:50. > :42:57.their craft in an old-fashioned way. David Savage runs the year-long
:42:57. > :43:02.specialist courses from West Devon. Recent changes in immigration rules
:43:02. > :43:06.are ruining the business. I am at the top of my field and I have
:43:06. > :43:11.drawn people from all over the world to come here and to study.
:43:11. > :43:17.Now I cannot do that. Is too difficult. That is a real shame
:43:17. > :43:21.because people are coming here for what is great about Britain. Our
:43:22. > :43:26.sense of quality, skill and knowledge. We can no longer do it.
:43:26. > :43:32.Are to be able to sponsor a foreign student's application for a visa,
:43:32. > :43:39.you now have to have highly trusted status. You get this by paying for
:43:39. > :43:43.assessment to become accredited. have already paid over �4,000 for
:43:43. > :43:48.accreditation. That is good for six months. It is not good enough for
:43:48. > :43:53.the border agency. If we want to sponsor a stint for one year. For
:43:53. > :43:58.that, we would have to seek a new accreditation from the new body and
:43:58. > :44:02.that would cost more than double. Even then, there is no guarantee
:44:02. > :44:07.the border agency will give us highly trusted status. To apply for
:44:07. > :44:12.a visa, a student must be given a CAS number by their sponsor, a
:44:12. > :44:18.confirmation of acceptance on the cause. David was allotted three CAS
:44:18. > :44:24.numbers were 1 student application failed on a technicality. A single
:44:24. > :44:31.case amounted to 33% of their allotment. Policy states failure of
:44:32. > :44:38.more than 10% Prince schools even applying up for highly trusted
:44:38. > :44:44.status. -- prevents schools. might be OK for a university that
:44:44. > :44:48.has been allocated 400 numbers. We were allocated three. It is
:44:48. > :44:52.completely unfair and discriminates against the small specialist
:44:52. > :44:57.college. Within a year, this workshop will have to change.
:44:57. > :45:01.Already they have lost a quarter of their students and a permanent
:45:01. > :45:05.member of staff as a direct result of the Government changing
:45:05. > :45:10.immigration policy. Christopher Brown travelled from
:45:10. > :45:15.Texas to learn from David. He may be the last long-term international
:45:15. > :45:20.student at the college. I came to the workshop because this is one of
:45:20. > :45:27.the few places in the world where you can learn these skills under a
:45:27. > :45:33.master craftsman. In the difficult process to go through but it would
:45:33. > :45:38.have been a huge loss to me and it will be a huge loss to others if we
:45:38. > :45:44.cannot do this. That potential loss has been noted by David's local MP
:45:44. > :45:48.who thinks the Government should make allowances. I intend to be a
:45:48. > :45:53.thorn in the Government's side on this. This is a matter of principle.
:45:53. > :45:58.It is important. When you have a figure like David Savage, who
:45:58. > :46:06.increases and contributes to the cultural and artistic reputation,
:46:06. > :46:10.you have to design rules that do not run a bulldozer over the
:46:10. > :46:14.artistic endeavours of people like him. The Home Office says
:46:14. > :46:18.immigration was allowed to get out of control. A spokesperson told of
:46:18. > :46:22.it is vital the UK continues to attract the best international
:46:22. > :46:29.students but they said they have to be more selective about who can
:46:29. > :46:34.come here and how long they can stay.
:46:34. > :46:42.Damp, I will ask you this. If you are broadly supportive of the
:46:43. > :46:51.immigration strategy, would you except possibly this situation is
:46:51. > :47:00.the price worth paying? Yes. It is interesting the population in that
:47:00. > :47:04.this country is increasing the birthrate. I think it is legitimate
:47:04. > :47:09.to have this conversation about immigration. I struggle with
:47:09. > :47:13.something that came from the Conservatives, flat caps on numbers.
:47:13. > :47:21.Then you get this situation here. The Government will have to refine
:47:21. > :47:25.it up to deal with cases like this. As long as we continue to bear down
:47:26. > :47:33.on illegal immigration and processing asylum cases, that will
:47:33. > :47:42.lead to better gains than getting the people who play by the rules.
:47:42. > :47:48.And, is the coalition having to clear up the mess? I think so. We
:47:48. > :47:52.were very relaxed. There were far too many people who came on bogus
:47:52. > :47:57.courses and disappeared and we had no means of checking who went out.
:47:57. > :48:01.The public rightly wanted to see things changed. I do not think they
:48:01. > :48:11.want to see what is going on now which is a role which has no
:48:11. > :48:12.
:48:12. > :48:17.sensible flexibility. Something like this, it is crazy. Students
:48:17. > :48:26.shouldn't have to go through this if it is a course they can't get
:48:26. > :48:31.anywhere else. I have had people saying about racing, this is my
:48:31. > :48:38.best rider but he is not allowed to come back. He has got to go. We
:48:38. > :48:43.have got to have flexibility. Especially with people who have
:48:43. > :48:50.particular skills all want to learn the skills we can uniquely provide.
:48:51. > :49:00.I dislike rules with no exceptions. Now for our round-up of the
:49:01. > :49:02.
:49:02. > :49:06.political week. The leaders of Devon and Somerset
:49:06. > :49:14.Fire authority see their careers go up in smoke after the reaction to
:49:14. > :49:21.their plans to put up council tax and members' allowances. I should
:49:21. > :49:26.not be punished. Allegations of arson and milk contamination at
:49:26. > :49:36.this farm. The owner thinks he has been targeted for supporting the
:49:36. > :49:43.badger cull. There are people in the country who can do such an act,
:49:43. > :49:48.I cannot believe it. Eight Devon MP demands compensation for the few
:49:48. > :49:53.men and vegetable victims of sudden ogre death. We want the trees to be
:49:53. > :50:03.be planted and we want successful woodland. Planners give the go-
:50:03. > :50:07.
:50:07. > :50:12.ahead for a �1 billion new town besides these rolling green fields.
:50:12. > :50:16.Where do you stand on badger culls? Behind people who speak out and say
:50:17. > :50:22.what they think and are on the receiving end of criminal behaviour
:50:22. > :50:32.like that. I am on the side of a cull in areas where there is a
:50:32. > :50:36.
:50:36. > :50:41.serious TB problem. I would like to see the people who set these barns
:50:41. > :50:47.a light, come and help in areas ridden with TB. Let them see what
:50:47. > :50:51.is going on the farms. The Lib Dems promised a cull. It is not
:50:51. > :50:56.something that all of you are comfortable with false up I am not
:50:56. > :51:01.comfortable with it. None of us want to see animals destroyed. The
:51:01. > :51:10.only way we are going to bed down on this disease, if we look at all
:51:10. > :51:20.the sources of infection, badgers are part of it. Some are opposed to
:51:20. > :51:22.