0:01:23 > 0:01:25In the South West: The MP who says God can heal, the humanist who
0:01:26 > 0:01:35thinks such claims are putting lives at risk. And the children who
0:01:36 > 0:01:36
0:01:36 > 0:29:48Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1692 seconds
0:29:48 > 0:29:51The Christians in a row about their claim that God can heal cancer.
0:29:51 > 0:29:54With me for the next 20 minutes are a double act we've treated you to
0:29:54 > 0:29:57before. They were such good value we've invited them back. Lib Dem
0:29:57 > 0:30:00peer John Burnett and Cornwall Council's one and only Labour
0:30:00 > 0:30:05councilor, Jude Robinson. Welcome. It is a week full of stories, one
0:30:05 > 0:30:10was the return of this debate about whether the Government plans to
0:30:10 > 0:30:14camp housing benefit is forcing people out of London. Forcing
0:30:14 > 0:30:17homeless people into other parts of the country. The Labour councillor
0:30:17 > 0:30:23in London says yes and the Government says there should not be
0:30:23 > 0:30:28happening. We have somebody who has turned up in Torbay who claims
0:30:28 > 0:30:36Westminster City Council put in there against his solution? Let us
0:30:36 > 0:30:41say exactly what we have done. We have capped benefits at �26,000 per
0:30:41 > 0:30:43year and gross that for taxation and that is �35,000 and every
0:30:43 > 0:30:49viewer watching this today will think that is a phenomenally high
0:30:49 > 0:30:55sum. I cannot understand that. you agree with the Housing Minister
0:30:55 > 0:30:59that this does not force people out of London? It will force people out
0:30:59 > 0:31:05of the most expensive properties in Mayfair and Belgravia, but there
0:31:06 > 0:31:10are other places. It is obvious that in parts of London, the rent
0:31:10 > 0:31:15is so high that that will force people out. And for us in the
0:31:16 > 0:31:19south-west, this is a minefield. We already have difficulty housing
0:31:19 > 0:31:23people that they already have on the waiting list and to have people
0:31:23 > 0:31:27coming from more expensive areas... The Government says there is done
0:31:28 > 0:31:32to property for this council area. They're playing politics ahead of
0:31:32 > 0:31:36the elections? They were said that and they are out of touch and what
0:31:37 > 0:31:41people are paying. We know that if you are trying to find somewhere to
0:31:41 > 0:31:46rent, whatever is advertised in the paper, many have gone when you try
0:31:46 > 0:31:51to apply and many landlords will not take benefit claimants. It is
0:31:51 > 0:31:56really difficult. My own view, if I can just say, there are many
0:31:56 > 0:32:02properties available for under �26,000 per year. Many places.
0:32:02 > 0:32:05must move on. Schoolchildren in much of the South West are among
0:32:05 > 0:32:08the worst funded in the country. This leaves pupils in places like
0:32:08 > 0:32:10Devon thousands of pounds worse off every year than their opposite
0:32:10 > 0:32:13numbers in the best-funded urban authorities. After years of
0:32:13 > 0:32:15campaigning, the last government agreed to review the funding
0:32:15 > 0:32:18formula and the coalition launched its own consultation into doing so.
0:32:18 > 0:32:21The Education Secretary has now reached his decision, which is to
0:32:21 > 0:32:27do absolutely nothing about it until after the next election. Amy
0:32:27 > 0:32:30Cole reports. Each pupil in this history lesson is worth less than
0:32:30 > 0:32:34their contemporaries in other parts of the country. Why? Well, it's a
0:32:34 > 0:32:37matter of geography. According to F40, the group campaigning for
0:32:37 > 0:32:47fairer school funding, Devon seems to lose out against more urban
0:32:47 > 0:32:49
0:32:49 > 0:32:56areas. How do they feel? I never thought about this because I have
0:32:56 > 0:33:01sinned every pupil would be worth the same. It is hard to think it's
0:33:01 > 0:33:05that some of us are less important. That money could go towards more
0:33:05 > 0:33:07teachers and smaller classes. teacher, Jason Scott, who is also a
0:33:07 > 0:33:13parent, thinks the Government is failing pupils in rural areas like
0:33:13 > 0:33:18Devon. The Government are doing these children and a service. We
0:33:18 > 0:33:22are well and have our own problems, children, and buses, the course
0:33:22 > 0:33:26that goes with travelling and troops and everything else, that
0:33:26 > 0:33:30isn't recognised. We are a very poor area of the country and we're
0:33:30 > 0:33:32getting hit double. As you can see from this table, none of the South
0:33:32 > 0:33:35West's education authorities receive more than �5,000 per pupil
0:33:35 > 0:33:41per year. Devon receives the lowest amount at just over �4,600 per
0:33:41 > 0:33:47pupil per year. Compare that to schools in the City of London and
0:33:47 > 0:33:52the difference is staggering. They receive more than �9,300 per pupil
0:33:52 > 0:33:58per year. Campaigners had high hopes that the government was going
0:33:58 > 0:34:00to help rural schools. But earlier this month the Education Secretary,
0:34:00 > 0:34:06Michael Gove, said the current government wouldn't be making any
0:34:06 > 0:34:14changes to the funding formula. The decision has dismayed one former
0:34:14 > 0:34:17Labour schools minister. -- schools minister. We have just patched and
0:34:17 > 0:34:21something for pockets of rural deprivation to make things easier
0:34:21 > 0:34:27for some of the series. We have a big consultation process and the
0:34:27 > 0:34:29group representing rural areas put into that and it was ignored.
0:34:30 > 0:34:36week, MP's from all parties, such as Cornwall's Sheryll Murray,
0:34:36 > 0:34:40debated the issue of fairer funding. In the long term, we have to have
0:34:40 > 0:34:48much more equal funding amongst the schools, regardless of the local-
0:34:48 > 0:34:54authority. And Cornwall is about 134th out of 151 local authority
0:34:54 > 0:34:59areas and that is really bad. We should not have 151 local
0:34:59 > 0:35:01authorities receiving different funding and we have to look at this.
0:35:02 > 0:35:04F40 has provided the government with a number of more affordable
0:35:04 > 0:35:07options. One includes making an extra �99 million available
0:35:07 > 0:35:17immediately, which it says would start to narrow the gap and give
0:35:17 > 0:35:19
0:35:19 > 0:35:26pupils a better education in the future. We are joined by Gary
0:35:26 > 0:35:31Stricker. I want to begin with you. These areas affected, predominantly
0:35:31 > 0:35:37rural Conservative areas, Conservative MPs have campaigned to
0:35:37 > 0:35:40change this and had you not had to abide by your own government?
0:35:40 > 0:35:44Secretary of State did not say we're doing nothing, we are
0:35:44 > 0:35:50reviewing this and nothing will be introduced in terms of any change
0:35:50 > 0:35:54between now and 2014. That is what was actually said. The problem is,
0:35:54 > 0:35:57it is hugely complicated. It is often recognise that there are
0:35:57 > 0:36:02about three people in the country to understand local authority
0:36:02 > 0:36:05funding, the former for schools. And work is already underway on
0:36:05 > 0:36:11reviewing what can be a fairer system and we have set out what
0:36:11 > 0:36:15will happen, it will be simpler, easier to understand and warfare.
0:36:15 > 0:36:20We will not know what will happen until after the next election.
0:36:20 > 0:36:24Because it is complicated and we need time. Being cynical, unless
0:36:24 > 0:36:27you have more money to put into the funding of schools, that means
0:36:27 > 0:36:33there will be losers? What of the reasons for not do this in the
0:36:33 > 0:36:37short term because this government is fair. At a time when schools are
0:36:37 > 0:36:41under the tough conditions, that isn't a good time. You don't have
0:36:41 > 0:36:46your eye on floating voters in London he might be losing money?
0:36:46 > 0:36:50Not at all. This is about getting a very important matter about and put
0:36:50 > 0:36:53in place for the next generation affair funding for Miller and that
0:36:53 > 0:37:03will require taking something away from northern cities and giving it
0:37:03 > 0:37:05to rural areas. But it will not happen overnight. Dude? One thing I
0:37:05 > 0:37:11understand with is this is complicated and we always start
0:37:11 > 0:37:15from this point when talking about funding. From the money. Are the
0:37:15 > 0:37:18results in this area much worse? They're not. By army not talking
0:37:18 > 0:37:24about what works and education rather than how much money be put
0:37:24 > 0:37:29in? One of the massive complications isn't the urban areas,
0:37:29 > 0:37:33they have a lot of children who don't have English as their first
0:37:33 > 0:37:37language, but you must put more money into things like that. People
0:37:37 > 0:37:41in urban areas deserve more money? Teachers in the south would say
0:37:41 > 0:37:45that actually, even the average level of funding would keep my
0:37:45 > 0:37:51budget in the black, stop me having to make teachers redundant.
0:37:51 > 0:37:54Everybody wants to move to a fairer system. We do. And there are issues
0:37:54 > 0:37:59in Cornwall were urban areas are getting far less than rural areas
0:37:59 > 0:38:06because of the way the funding is cut. Let's look at all these issues
0:38:06 > 0:38:11together. We saw Holsworthy Community College, in your old
0:38:11 > 0:38:15constituency, well? It has been a problem during her time in office
0:38:15 > 0:38:22and something I have picked up the baton with that on many occasions
0:38:22 > 0:38:27but the Ministry of State said that he has sketched out a very profound
0:38:27 > 0:38:31set of aspects from this review and we will cut away 37 factors and
0:38:31 > 0:38:39concentrate on 10 of them. It will be more simple. It is a very
0:38:39 > 0:38:45difficult problem, it is a bit like the Holstein Question, three people
0:38:45 > 0:38:51knew about that and one was dead and one had forgotten. We will get
0:38:51 > 0:38:55this right, it will be fair and the point made that you can get an
0:38:55 > 0:38:59inner-city school with 50 different languages being spoken, that is one
0:38:59 > 0:39:05of those factors. It will be right, it will take time but at least
0:39:06 > 0:39:13we're doing something about this. Nothing was done from 97 until 2000.
0:39:13 > 0:39:15Bowker, we must move on. -- OK. You might be surprised at some of the
0:39:15 > 0:39:18issues the Advertising Standards Authority gets involved in.
0:39:18 > 0:39:20Recently it condemned a misleading advert placed by a group
0:39:20 > 0:39:22campaigning against Devon's incineration plans. It has also
0:39:22 > 0:39:25banned leaflets handed out by a Christian group which claims God
0:39:25 > 0:39:28can heal people of cancer and a list of other illnesses. The
0:39:28 > 0:39:31decision has infuriated the MP who chairs Christians in Parliament.
0:39:31 > 0:39:35That MP is our own Gary Streeter, so he'll be staying with us to
0:39:35 > 0:39:38discuss this report from Tamsin Melville. A healing prayer session
0:39:38 > 0:39:43in Truro. Volunteers from the city's Healing on the Streets
0:39:43 > 0:39:47branch offer their services free of charge. A leaflet they're using
0:39:47 > 0:39:54says God can heal you today and lists a number of ailments from
0:39:54 > 0:40:01back pain to cancer. We are not claiming this will happen for you
0:40:01 > 0:40:05right now and they are not saying that we will replace the NHS. Just,
0:40:05 > 0:40:10sometimes, it can happen. We can work alongside the NHS and we can
0:40:10 > 0:40:13refer people to the NHS if we have concern. The group Tracy runs is
0:40:13 > 0:40:16part of a national network. And a complaint about a leaflet almost
0:40:16 > 0:40:19identical to this being used in Bath has led to the Advertising
0:40:19 > 0:40:22Standards Authority banning its use there, saying it's misleading and
0:40:22 > 0:40:25could discourage people from seeking medical treatment. The
0:40:25 > 0:40:28regulator told The Sunday Politics: We don't wish to disregard anyone's
0:40:28 > 0:40:30beliefs but specific claims targeted at people who may be
0:40:30 > 0:40:37seriously ill must comply with the rules on substantiation and social
0:40:37 > 0:40:39responsibility that apply to all Last week, footballer Fabrice
0:40:39 > 0:40:46Muamba described his recovery from cardiac arrest as more than a
0:40:46 > 0:40:50miracle. His case is being used by Devon MP Gary Streeter in his
0:40:50 > 0:40:53challenge to the ad watchdog over its ruling. As chair of the
0:40:53 > 0:40:55Christians in Parliament group, he has co-written a letter asking the
0:40:55 > 0:41:03authority to provide scientific evidence to show prayer doesn't
0:41:03 > 0:41:06work. And he makes it personal. Gary Streeter writes in the letter
0:41:06 > 0:41:10about his own experience of what he calls divine healing at a church
0:41:10 > 0:41:15meeting in 1983. He says after prayer at the meeting he was
0:41:15 > 0:41:18immediately free of pain in his right hand and has been ever since.
0:41:18 > 0:41:28The ASA says testimonials are insufficient evidence for claims of
0:41:28 > 0:41:29
0:41:29 > 0:41:34healing. Others say an MP shouldn't get involved. For somebody in his
0:41:34 > 0:41:39position to advance these ideas is extremely dangerous. He does put
0:41:39 > 0:41:43people's lives at risk. And he puts his own reputation at risk because
0:41:43 > 0:41:46he clearly cannot tell fact from fantasy. But the Healing on the
0:41:46 > 0:41:48Streets movement is not alone in believing in the power of prayer to
0:41:49 > 0:41:52heal. For centuries, Catholics have been visiting places like Lourdes
0:41:52 > 0:42:00in France to be cured. But even those who fully believe urge
0:42:00 > 0:42:05caution. One should not say that God will hear today because we
0:42:05 > 0:42:10literally cannot say that God can heal somebody of some dreadful in
0:42:10 > 0:42:15this today. Healing is in God's hands and this is unquestionable.
0:42:16 > 0:42:20That God can heal and does heal people. I firmly believe that along
0:42:20 > 0:42:22with countless other believers. Back in Truro, the Healing on the
0:42:22 > 0:42:30Streets group is waiting for an imminent decision on the Bath
0:42:30 > 0:42:37appeal against the ASA's ruling. You do not look like a dangerous
0:42:37 > 0:42:44man. But it strikes may that it is impossible to be a Christian and
0:42:44 > 0:42:50not like, -- not, like the Monsignor, believe that God can
0:42:50 > 0:42:54heal. But this ticketless specific diseases and there is nothing else
0:42:54 > 0:42:58about the tenets of Christian belief, it is all about healing?
0:42:58 > 0:43:03Does it across the line? It is probably unwise to list complaints
0:43:03 > 0:43:07that you can be healed from, it seems clinical and this isn't about
0:43:07 > 0:43:12pushing buttons. I fully accept that sometimes people pray for
0:43:12 > 0:43:15healing and it does happen and sometimes it does not. The words of
0:43:15 > 0:43:22the Advertising Standards Agency objected to what that God can heal
0:43:22 > 0:43:26you physically. I say that is the same as saying, God isn't real. God
0:43:26 > 0:43:31does not exist. That is what they are really saying. That isn't their
0:43:31 > 0:43:35decision, that is a matter for individual fate. It has been a part
0:43:35 > 0:43:38of mainstream Christian tradition for 2000 years. God can heal you.
0:43:38 > 0:43:44We should not be stopped from making that very modest claim
0:43:44 > 0:43:50because it does happen to be true. You had a look at the Lee for, do
0:43:50 > 0:43:54you agree? -- leaflet. I do not know why the Church is getting into
0:43:54 > 0:43:59this, I have a lot of time with the Church, the work it does with
0:43:59 > 0:44:04Thomas Papal and other problems in society... Should this be banned?
0:44:04 > 0:44:09Is there an issue of freedom of speech? If the Church wants to say
0:44:09 > 0:44:15that God can heal, I'd do not see how that can be banned but the
0:44:16 > 0:44:18issue of the small print, like the *, only adviser to seek your
0:44:18 > 0:44:25doctors for a vacation, that cheapens this and the Church should
0:44:25 > 0:44:30stay away. I want to go to buy Tesco shop and have my bunions
0:44:30 > 0:44:34fixed by back-heeler on the way. Why would you go down this road?
0:44:34 > 0:44:40What people are doing is take to the streets the message that God is
0:44:40 > 0:44:43alive and he can he knew. But it is a mistake to less things,
0:44:43 > 0:44:48especially if bargains are there... That's not to say that God cannot
0:44:48 > 0:44:51heal Bunyan's but it is part of our gospel to take the good news to the
0:44:51 > 0:44:56streets and it really is a question of freedom of speech, freedom of
0:44:56 > 0:45:00conscience and the ASA should not band this. Come, you are practising
0:45:00 > 0:45:06Catholic and the Catholic Church isn't just believe that miraculous
0:45:06 > 0:45:09healing happens, but it regularly and colleges specific instances.
0:45:10 > 0:45:14Does that put you on Gary's side? They it does not. I should add that
0:45:14 > 0:45:19I could be a better Catholic, although I am practising, and we
0:45:19 > 0:45:22could all be better but certainly myself. I am on the Advertising
0:45:22 > 0:45:26Standards Agency side and when my beloved father went to Lourdes
0:45:26 > 0:45:31before he died with terminal cancer, he was not looking for a cure but
0:45:31 > 0:45:36he got great comfort and solace. That is a matter of faith. I think
0:45:36 > 0:45:44this kind of advertising can be misleading to people. If you look
0:45:44 > 0:45:50at it like that, in its broad nakedness, it looks as though, if I
0:45:50 > 0:45:54pray I will be cured. That is wrong. It is wrong but belief that does
0:45:54 > 0:46:01not say that God will hear you, it says that God can heal you.
0:46:01 > 0:46:05know what people are like. They will say that God can heal today,
0:46:05 > 0:46:09and I think it is misleading and I am with the Advertising Standards
0:46:09 > 0:46:13Agency on this. There is this fundamental issue of freedom of
0:46:13 > 0:46:17speech, to persuade people of the views you passionately hold but
0:46:17 > 0:46:22other people might think are nonsense. You cannot mislead people
0:46:23 > 0:46:28in advertising. And the way this is put is too much, you do this and
0:46:28 > 0:46:33something will happen. It has crossed the line. It does seem like
0:46:33 > 0:46:37advertising. That is a problem. I do not see why the Church needs to
0:46:37 > 0:46:47do this. We must move on. Thanks, Gary. Now our regular roundup of
0:46:47 > 0:46:50
0:46:51 > 0:46:59the political week in 60 seconds. The campaign to save the pasty from
0:46:59 > 0:47:03the taxman rolled into Westminster. I could not put up by prices by 20%.
0:47:03 > 0:47:06Plans to recycle incinerator ash at this quarry in but vastly were
0:47:06 > 0:47:12rejected by councillors and they need to be recycled and not run
0:47:12 > 0:47:18away themselves. I did a percent of the town said know. As to the
0:47:18 > 0:47:22councillors. It just indicates this. This is democracy. In Cornwall, too
0:47:22 > 0:47:26much money is being thrown away on the council's chief executive,
0:47:26 > 0:47:29according to the tax payers alliance. You cannot as a Chief
0:47:29 > 0:47:34Executive decide where to make spending cuts if you are not
0:47:34 > 0:47:41willing to take a pay freeze, if not a pay cut. The hands and feet
0:47:41 > 0:47:44are well done but apart from that... Like or loathe it, the statue has
0:47:44 > 0:47:47embroiled the council in more financial controversy. Councillors
0:47:47 > 0:47:57admit they paid for it with money they should have spent on something
0:47:57 > 0:48:00
0:48:00 > 0:48:03else. Well, the taxpayers Alliance compound the Rich List of
0:48:04 > 0:48:12councillors. Should any Chief Executive take a pay rise this
0:48:12 > 0:48:16year? No, I do not. Something has gone wrong. We are in this arms
0:48:17 > 0:48:23race of top salaries for everybody wants more. Having said that, in
0:48:23 > 0:48:26defence, and would say he has taken a pay cut in the past year because
0:48:26 > 0:48:32of financial situation. I think this whole thing of top salaries
0:48:33 > 0:48:38are is getting out of hand. John? completely agree and I think that
0:48:38 > 0:48:43he earns �207,000 each year. Phenomenal. And in this part of the
0:48:43 > 0:48:47world. And it isn't stopping at the Saturday, his pension will be
0:48:47 > 0:48:51enormous. The package is very generous indeed. It would be
0:48:51 > 0:48:54interesting to see how this compares with the Chief Executive
0:48:54 > 0:49:01of Devon County Council. It is too high and I think you should take
0:49:01 > 0:49:10another pay cut. And the pasta tax riot rolls on? I know! What an
0:49:10 > 0:49:14appalling thing to do. You can talk about sorting out anomalies, as