:01:36. > :01:46.In the South West. Is the Lib Dem's key education
:01:46. > :01:47.
:01:47. > :37:11.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2124 seconds
:37:11. > :37:14.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in the South West. Coming
:37:14. > :37:21.up. How rich should pensioners be before they give up their free bus
:37:21. > :37:26.passes, free TV licences and winter fuel allowances? I am joined by her
:37:26. > :37:29.Liberal-Democrat Peer Robin Teverson, hopefully not too over-
:37:29. > :37:36.excited after the conference and by Luke Pollard to stood for Labour in
:37:36. > :37:40.the safe Tory seat of South West Devon at the last election. I
:37:40. > :37:45.spotted you their spying on them. You will see me at the Labour
:37:45. > :37:51.conference this week. That is about to kick off in Manchester and I
:37:51. > :37:56.caught up with Ed Miliband and he made this admission. We were too
:37:56. > :38:01.late to the issue of housing. left the coalition with the lowest
:38:01. > :38:06.building up of houses since the 1920s. House building has gone down
:38:06. > :38:12.under this government. There is a huge debt with the recession, but
:38:12. > :38:15.even before that it was low. recognise the need to build
:38:15. > :38:19.affordable housing and give councils the right to build more
:38:19. > :38:28.houses, but we did it too late. The question for the future in all
:38:28. > :38:32.these things is how do we move on. So, the Europe leader admitted that
:38:32. > :38:38.his government fiddled and postponed it until the 11th hour.
:38:38. > :38:42.This is the biggest issue here. is. I think what he is doing is
:38:42. > :38:48.grappling with the big issues that we have to face for the next
:38:48. > :38:52.manifesto. We need more affordable homes. How will that happen?
:38:52. > :38:56.need to make sure that measures about affordable housing are put in
:38:56. > :39:00.place and what we have got is a government that is taking away the
:39:00. > :39:08.restrictions on housing so developers do not have to build any
:39:08. > :39:12.affordable housing in their developments. What will you do that
:39:12. > :39:18.is new and different? We need to look at new ways of ownership, new
:39:18. > :39:22.ways of unlocking public sector land that has not been built on.
:39:22. > :39:27.They are a whole host of ideas that are been looked at by the Labour
:39:27. > :39:31.Party, but what is certain is that if you take away the compulsion for
:39:31. > :39:36.housebuilders to build affordable houses, they will not build
:39:36. > :39:41.affordable houses, they will build a luxury flats. When you were in
:39:41. > :39:45.opposition, he said the problem with Labour is that it muscled in
:39:45. > :39:50.on councils and told them to build homes. Is that not what you are
:39:50. > :39:55.doing now? It is still a big problem. There has not been much
:39:55. > :39:59.progress over the last two years. I think what we have got to do...
:39:59. > :40:09.There is a message this has to change. Housebuilding is down to
:40:09. > :40:11.
:40:11. > :40:14.the levels of and 1923 -- in 1923. We have got to get that back in
:40:14. > :40:18.balance and we have to get affordable homes. We are not saying
:40:18. > :40:24.that all that affordable housing stocks, but it needs to be looked
:40:24. > :40:28.at to make sure it doesn't get in the way of some construction.
:40:28. > :40:34.you excepting it that it is not the case be if you leave it to local
:40:34. > :40:39.councils, it will happen. You need a bigger man with a big stick to
:40:39. > :40:42.make it happen. I do not entirely accept that. One of the problems
:40:42. > :40:46.even on affordable housing is when people want to buy affordable
:40:46. > :40:50.housing which is part of the scheme, you still cannot get mortgages
:40:50. > :40:55.easily and some of the work that is being done on the financial side is
:40:55. > :40:59.starting to take that barrier away. Do not go away.
:40:59. > :41:03.Little makes a Lib Dem chest swell with pride as much as the pupil
:41:03. > :41:08.premium. Extra funding for the poorest children is one of the few
:41:08. > :41:12.things Nick Clegg says he would have died in a ditch for during at
:41:12. > :41:20.the negotiations. One MP and now claims it is a cack-handed policy
:41:20. > :41:23.which makes inequalities in school funding it worse. Lunchtime at
:41:23. > :41:30.South Dartmoor Community College. Some of these children are getting
:41:30. > :41:33.it free. But free school meals are not just about food these days.
:41:33. > :41:38.Since the launch of the pupil premium, schools are given a large
:41:38. > :41:43.dollop of money for each child on the school meals register. For some,
:41:43. > :41:47.the way of dishing out the funding is proving hard to digest.
:41:47. > :41:52.problem is that the money is being allocated in a cack-handed way and
:41:52. > :41:57.is not getting to the places that need it most. Devon is among the
:41:57. > :42:01.lowest funded education authorities in the country. Last year, it has
:42:01. > :42:07.given �4,600 of funding per pupil and in London be received at twice
:42:07. > :42:13.that amount, �9,300. The pupil premium is one of the flagship
:42:13. > :42:19.policies of the Liberal Democrat designed to address inequalities in
:42:19. > :42:22.education. In it is a huge amount of extra money. It is given
:42:23. > :42:27.directly to schools to teach children for more disadvantaged
:42:27. > :42:31.backgrounds and the teachers as well will be completely free to do
:42:31. > :42:36.with that money would every they want, what they judge to be best
:42:36. > :42:41.for the children. But Nick Harvey says it is based on a clumsy and
:42:41. > :42:46.crude measure of income levels. There are many areas that we know
:42:46. > :42:50.from all the other economic statistics are very poor areas were
:42:50. > :42:56.perhaps rather surprisingly the free school make it -- meal claim
:42:56. > :42:59.count is below average. He and the Speaker areas are then not getting
:42:59. > :43:03.the pupil premium on the scale they were expecting and far from
:43:03. > :43:07.narrowing the gap but there are between the poorer areas and
:43:07. > :43:13.wealthier areas, it is increasing it because it is not working in the
:43:13. > :43:17.way it was intended. Pupil premiums are worth �600 per student claiming
:43:17. > :43:23.free school meals, next year it will go up to �900 and the funding
:43:23. > :43:27.is set to double in 2014. The worry is that schoolchildren in the South
:43:27. > :43:32.West are losing out because even though incomes here are amongst the
:43:32. > :43:37.lowest in the country, only 10% of secondary pupils in Devon are
:43:37. > :43:41.claiming free school meals compared to the national average of 15%. In
:43:41. > :43:47.rural areas it is thought there may be more of the stigma attached to
:43:47. > :43:51.claiming compared to towns and cities. It is a blunt tool. The
:43:51. > :43:54.funding of follows youngsters who get free school meals and
:43:54. > :44:00.unfortunately a lot of parents particularly in rural area do not
:44:00. > :44:05.apply for those free school meals, they are either too proud to apply
:44:05. > :44:08.for them and believe they should stand on their own two feet or are
:44:08. > :44:12.they perhaps do not have the literacy skills to complete the
:44:12. > :44:16.paperwork and feel intimidated by the whole system. The Department
:44:16. > :44:20.for Education says the pupil premium is designed to help the
:44:20. > :44:23.most disadvantaged pupils and says the scheme has recently been
:44:23. > :44:32.extended to include students who have claimed free school meals at
:44:32. > :44:38.any point in the last six years. If Nick Harvey is right, it is
:44:38. > :44:43.extremely embarrassing, the great pupil premium, the flagship policy,
:44:43. > :44:48.which is not really working in the rural South West? There are issues
:44:48. > :44:53.around at the rural areas and it is important to us here. It basically,
:44:53. > :44:59.the premium is the right thing and what it is trying to do is even up
:44:59. > :45:02.people's life chances. Some other policies, like child care, are
:45:03. > :45:08.really starting to come through but the problem is we do not have the
:45:08. > :45:12.right indicator and as in Nick says free school meals at... Similar
:45:12. > :45:17.places in terms of poverty, Sunderland, Tower Hamlets have a
:45:17. > :45:21.much higher level of free school meals so what we need to do is
:45:21. > :45:26.based this, perhaps we look at the way it is based statistically.
:45:26. > :45:34.There is no indication that that will happen and it looks as though
:45:34. > :45:39.this has been it scuppered. should not be a... There is a
:45:39. > :45:44.fundamental problem here which has been going on for a long long time.
:45:44. > :45:49.What we do have to change is the basis on which it is done. That
:45:49. > :45:54.might take a while. It means we do at least have the right policy we
:45:54. > :45:59.just need to make sure the way it is looked at it is refined. I
:45:59. > :46:06.absolutely agree with him on that. A Nick Harvey also said that all
:46:06. > :46:11.three parties were a keen on some kind of pupil premium. What do you
:46:11. > :46:20.think? The devil is in the detail. All the main parties for wanting to
:46:20. > :46:24.give more to schools. What you report did not say is about the
:46:24. > :46:27.school at cuts that are taking place, the cuts in terms of
:46:27. > :46:33.education and what the Government is doing is taking with one hand
:46:33. > :46:36.and giving some with another and that does not balance out. Try to
:46:36. > :46:41.keep it specifically to what this focuses, this premium and but it
:46:41. > :46:45.would have achieved. I think you were nodding when Nick Clegg said
:46:45. > :46:50.that schools can do what they like with it. The problem is head
:46:50. > :46:54.teachers are not doing what they like with it. It is not focused on
:46:54. > :46:58.the most vulnerable children. answer to that it would be to
:46:58. > :47:03.Ofsted what is your job to do other than to check how this is being
:47:03. > :47:07.done. The Government could ring- fence it though. You could do, but
:47:07. > :47:11.there needs to be more accountability. One of the things I
:47:11. > :47:16.welcome is that schools were now. After publicly state how they use
:47:16. > :47:20.this money. I think head teachers know best how to use this money.
:47:20. > :47:24.They perhaps need some help on it, but the last thing we want is the
:47:24. > :47:31.big dictate coming down from the Department of Education at saying
:47:31. > :47:36.how you use this money. It goes to the right places generally. What
:47:36. > :47:41.schools need to do is to make sure that they use it in the right way
:47:41. > :47:47.for the specific pupils from poorer families, not just on free school
:47:47. > :47:50.meal children. How would Labour be focused on S? You need to look at
:47:50. > :47:55.the basket of measures that define poverty and the Government have not
:47:55. > :48:02.got it right when it comes to funding education here. It is also
:48:02. > :48:05.looking at the other school budgets because this is a good... Places
:48:05. > :48:12.like Devon and Cornwall are traditionally underfunded. It is a
:48:12. > :48:15.bit like housing. You consulted on changing the system. He and
:48:15. > :48:19.teachers need to know that they're getting a fair amount of money to
:48:19. > :48:23.provide education for that community. At the moment with cuts
:48:23. > :48:27.and the problems with the pupil premium we're not getting that.
:48:27. > :48:30.Whether it is Labour other Tories or the Liberal Democrats, we still
:48:30. > :48:33.have two and a half years of this coalition and we need to make sure
:48:33. > :48:37.that the Government is getting it right for the children matter in
:48:37. > :48:39.education now and that means looking again at the conditions
:48:39. > :48:45.that about pupil premium and the reasons why families are not
:48:45. > :48:49.claiming it. We need to get life chances sorted. That is the clear
:48:49. > :48:54.thing. That central message and that is a Liberal Democrat message.
:48:54. > :48:57.We will now go to the other end of the age range. Remember the row
:48:57. > :49:01.when George Osborne came up with his plans to take a child benefit
:49:01. > :49:04.away from higher earners? Last week in Nick Clegg floated a similar
:49:04. > :49:09.idea to trim benefits for the elderly which would see some of
:49:09. > :49:17.them lose the bus passes, winter through a -- winter fuel allowances
:49:17. > :49:19.and free TV licences. It is the last day of the season at this
:49:19. > :49:23.bowling club with these over- sixties are making the most of
:49:23. > :49:29.their retirement. Nick Clegg bus Commons this week about some
:49:29. > :49:34.benefits they get has got them talking in the clubhouse. If we
:49:34. > :49:44.lose things like that, it of censure costs. Hopefully I will get
:49:44. > :49:50.
:49:50. > :49:53.the �200. It cost me �800 to do one or oil tank. If you are paid
:49:53. > :49:59.�40,000 by year, you should not be receiving the benefits. At the
:49:59. > :50:05.moment, all over-sixties can get a winter fuel payment worth �200,
:50:05. > :50:10.free prescriptions, eye tests and a bus pass. Over 75 so eligible for a
:50:10. > :50:15.free TV licence. Add to this other means tested benefits and the
:50:15. > :50:19.elderly are running up the bill for the taxpayer in excess of �100
:50:19. > :50:24.billion per year. Nick Clegg says his party would be prepared to
:50:24. > :50:31.examine cutting in the universal benefits for some older people.
:50:31. > :50:35.think there are many millionaires in this country who in the future
:50:35. > :50:38.will be much in the spirit that I am saying that people of
:50:38. > :50:42.considerable wealth want to make a contribution will also say
:50:42. > :50:46.voluntary early that maybe they should give up some of those
:50:46. > :50:51.universal entitlements to help the people who are less lucky than them
:50:51. > :50:57.to make ends meet. Campaigners are anxious. Universal benefits are
:50:57. > :51:01.there to help all older people. If you try and tinker with them, we
:51:01. > :51:06.are going to see lots of older people who have needs slip through
:51:06. > :51:10.the net. This is a sensitive topic and although the Prime Minister has
:51:10. > :51:15.ruled out a touching pensioners' benefits in this Parliament, the
:51:15. > :51:18.coalition is now looking be on this. George Osborne has raised the
:51:18. > :51:22.prospect of a further �10 billion worth of cuts to welfare spending
:51:22. > :51:28.in the next parliament and a growing number of voices are saying
:51:28. > :51:33.it is universal benefits for the elderly that is an obvious target.
:51:33. > :51:38.One of Devon's comfortably of a pensioner's thinks the winter fuel
:51:38. > :51:41.payment is particularly nonsensical. I remember picking up a very large
:51:41. > :51:46.cheque from Strictly Come Dancing and in the same post finding the
:51:46. > :51:50.Government had so kindly giving me a winter fuel allowance. That is a
:51:51. > :51:56.nonsense. My view is that the winter fuel allowance should be
:51:56. > :52:02.means tested, but simply so. Simply say higher-rate taxpayers should
:52:03. > :52:06.not get the winter fuel allowance. Institute for Fiscal Studies says
:52:06. > :52:09.it targeting only millionaire pensioners would not make a dent in
:52:09. > :52:14.the deficit and Ann Widdecombe things that the Liberal Democrat
:52:14. > :52:20.leader needs to rethink. He is right on the principal been that
:52:20. > :52:25.the wealthy should not get handouts. He is right on that. Were he is
:52:25. > :52:31.wrong is trying to define what he perceives as well which is the
:52:31. > :52:36.usual liberal Democrat resentment towards anyone who has done well.
:52:36. > :52:39.By get the bowling club there is a feeling that the wealthy could
:52:39. > :52:45.force that some benefits but there is an acknowledgement that it could
:52:45. > :52:49.be a tricky target. We are joined and now from our Westminster studio
:52:49. > :52:55.by James Browne from the Institute for Fiscal Studies. Welcome to the
:52:55. > :53:00.programme. You have crunched some of the figures and what do you
:53:00. > :53:04.think? If you were a to take things like the winter fuel payments and
:53:04. > :53:10.free bus passes away from people with very high levels of wealth,
:53:10. > :53:14.millionaires, that would not save much money. To introduce a whole
:53:14. > :53:24.new system of means testing and would more than offset the savings
:53:24. > :53:29.you would get from that. In order to save serious amounts of money
:53:29. > :53:32.from a policy like this you would really need it to say give these
:53:32. > :53:39.benefits to those pensioners who are on pension credit and that
:53:39. > :53:44.would save around �1.4 billion per year. When Nick Clegg clarified his
:53:44. > :53:48.position he said he would only be targeting the very rich, so that is
:53:48. > :53:53.nonsense in your view? Well, you could introduce a system like that,
:53:53. > :53:57.but I think you need to think more fundamentally about how we design a
:53:57. > :54:03.system of support for older people and whether we need all these
:54:03. > :54:08.separate little benefits on top of the state pension and pension
:54:08. > :54:11.credits as a means tested top up which we have at the moment. I will
:54:11. > :54:14.bring in the studio guests. Nick Clegg has apologised for the
:54:14. > :54:19.student fee pledge something he said he had not thought through
:54:19. > :54:24.properly, is this another thing he has not thought through properly?
:54:24. > :54:28.We are discussing it at the moment. We're talking about after the next
:54:28. > :54:31.general election and other things they might stand for. What is clear
:54:31. > :54:36.across all the Liberal Democrats who have spoken on this is that
:54:36. > :54:40.this is an area were work needs to be done. We are talking about a
:54:40. > :54:43.prolonged period of squeezing most of the population and most by a
:54:43. > :54:49.feeling that way, then surely people that are very well-off do
:54:49. > :54:54.not need some of these benefits. you in favour of this? Or we
:54:54. > :54:59.stalking about millionaires? would agree with some of my other
:54:59. > :55:03.colleagues. Some who say it should be a lower level than that. You
:55:03. > :55:06.would have to do it through the taxation system, you would have to
:55:06. > :55:11.do it through an income based rather than an asset-based or else
:55:11. > :55:15.it would get too expensive. It is one of those areas that politicians
:55:15. > :55:20.do not like to confront because there are losers in this as well as
:55:20. > :55:24.winners but I think it is an area where we need to move forward.
:55:24. > :55:28.heard Ann Widdecombe say it was absurd for her to receive a huge
:55:28. > :55:36.cheque for a television appearance and a winter fuel allowance. A bit
:55:36. > :55:39.odd for Labour to defend that. would be nice if all its seven
:55:39. > :55:45.pensioners were receiving such checks. The majority of pensioners
:55:45. > :55:49.are suffering from squeezed incomes and higher energy bills. What we
:55:49. > :55:52.need is a proper system that recognises the real costs of
:55:52. > :55:55.growing old and really supports them and universal benefits is one
:55:55. > :55:59.of those safety nets that guarantees everyone on it and if
:55:59. > :56:02.you could create a system without the bureaucracy and means testing
:56:03. > :56:06.which the proposals would mean it then if that were to win public
:56:06. > :56:11.support that is something to look at. I do not think that can be
:56:11. > :56:15.created. The universal benefits have already come under attack from
:56:15. > :56:18.the government and we need to protect those benefits to make sure
:56:18. > :56:23.that when people know they're getting the allowance they are
:56:23. > :56:28.getting protection. Do you think Ann Widdecombe it should he get up
:56:28. > :56:34.at the winter fuel allowance? chose not to send it back. It is a
:56:34. > :56:37.choice about whether you cash that cheque. If the preferred system was
:56:37. > :56:43.implemented, it would not go down terribly well with the people you
:56:43. > :56:47.want to vote for you what it? think the word. My mother who is a
:56:47. > :56:50.Conservative supporter always says it is ridiculous that I get my
:56:50. > :56:56.winter fuel allowance but she is not even particularly well off. A
:56:57. > :57:01.lot of people and know that the people had difficult times and they
:57:01. > :57:05.think we have the wrong balance. We have to get it right and it is
:57:05. > :57:10.difficult but sometimes politicians have to lead. That's is something
:57:10. > :57:20.today. We also know that Lord Sugar does not have a bus pass. Time for
:57:20. > :57:22.
:57:22. > :57:25.our round-up of the Week in 60 seconds. The campaign to save the
:57:25. > :57:30.planet airport continued. City councillors pledged to safeguard
:57:30. > :57:35.the site for a possible reopening. Nurses fighting regional pay tell
:57:35. > :57:45.him the new boss of our biggest hospital to think again. People are
:57:45. > :57:48.demoralised. They're talking to me about quitting. Cornwall Council
:57:48. > :57:53.leader Alex Robertson runs and so more opposition to his plans to
:57:53. > :57:59.privatise council services. This time it is from his own deputy.
:57:59. > :58:03.Badger cull opponents raised more than 100,000 signatures. The Chief
:58:03. > :58:11.Executive of the Isles of Scilly Council that defence is huge
:58:11. > :58:15.overtime claim. A I was working 18 hour days. It is perfectly
:58:15. > :58:25.reasonable that that is respected. Cornish campaigners say Prince
:58:25. > :58:27.
:58:27. > :58:31.Charles should give his Duchy back to the people. The airport of
:58:31. > :58:35.course, potentially incredibly valuable to Plymouth. Be it is an
:58:35. > :58:39.since it closed under the last Conservative administration we have
:58:39. > :58:42.seen in the city suffer. It is great to see the Labour council is
:58:42. > :58:48.preserving and safeguarding land and what they're calling for his
:58:48. > :58:55.people to write to David Cameron and say that this land protected,
:58:55. > :58:58.help us rebuild our airport because we need Connectivity. We need that
:58:58. > :59:03.Connectivity that an airport can bring and it is great to see the
:59:03. > :59:09.council taking a lead on protecting that. Your background is in
:59:09. > :59:13.business. It is important isn't it? Yes. A major city should have an
:59:13. > :59:19.airport. There is a major problem when you cannot let the -- land a
:59:19. > :59:23.major jet there. I wish the council all the best on resolving this.
:59:23. > :59:28.Duchy of Cornwall handed back to the people? Excellence idea. That
:59:28. > :59:34.would be really good but I would be careful about the who those people
:59:34. > :59:39.might be. It is a strange organisation. You would like to see
:59:39. > :59:46.it taken away from the heir to the throne's it is more less run by the
:59:46. > :59:49.state and the Treasury anyway. The money will go to Cornwall them?