:37:11. > :37:14.Hello. Coming up on the Sunday Politics, in the South West. The
:37:14. > :37:20.man who says he can't afford flood insurance, and has little hope the
:37:20. > :37:24.Government will help him. And for the next 20 mince I am joined by
:37:24. > :37:29.the Conservative MP George Eustice and Anne Mallalieu. Welcome both of
:37:29. > :37:33.you. Let us start with the plan for regional pay in the NHS. Three
:37:33. > :37:39.weeks' ago the Government seemed to be standing firmly behind the South
:37:39. > :37:44.West Health Trusts proposing this. Health Minister soub describe them
:37:44. > :37:48.as mature. Her fellow Health Minister Dan Poulter appeared to
:37:48. > :37:53.perform a dramatic U-turn. There is a general agreement we need to
:37:53. > :37:58.maintain national pay frameworks, provided they are fut for purpose.
:37:58. > :38:02.I think he will find that the South West pay consortium, who have been
:38:02. > :38:07.heavy handed in the way they have conducted their affair, will also
:38:07. > :38:11.see the benefit of maintaining national pay frameworks. So, George,
:38:12. > :38:14.people ra going to be confused by this -- are going to be confused.
:38:14. > :38:19.Does the Government support the South West looking into regional
:38:19. > :38:24.pay or not? I think there is a pretty clear indication there from
:38:24. > :38:28.Dan Poulter they feel the South West consortium hasn't handled this
:38:28. > :38:33.very well. There would be agreement about that. What about as far as
:38:33. > :38:36.Anna Soubry goes, saying it was responsible. There is a difference
:38:36. > :38:40.of emphasis. The important thing to bear in mind it has been possible
:38:40. > :38:47.for PCTs to negotiate their own terms and conditions with staff.
:38:47. > :38:49.Since 2004 most have used the agenda for change mechanism, and
:38:49. > :38:54.the majority will probably continue to do that. But I think it is
:38:54. > :38:59.important to remember with 70% of all the costs that PCTs have, being
:38:59. > :39:04.in staff costs, I think it is wrong to completely rule out any changes
:39:04. > :39:09.at all to pay and conditions. appears to be a communications
:39:09. > :39:13.break down, is it embarrassing for you? Where the consortium would
:39:13. > :39:18.agree, the way this came out caused some alarm. They are not talking
:39:18. > :39:21.about cutting pay, they are talking about changing shift patterns for
:39:21. > :39:26.instance, which most people would think more sensible. People have to
:39:26. > :39:29.ask the question if it is a choice between cutting frontline services
:39:29. > :39:32.or having more flexibility in pay and conditions which should you do
:39:32. > :39:37.it would be wrong to rule out flexibility in pay and conditions.
:39:37. > :39:41.What is Labour's position? In is a good shambles. It is not just one
:39:41. > :39:46.minister knowing what the other one is saying, the Government is saying
:39:46. > :39:49.we want localism, people taking decision at local level and local
:39:49. > :39:53.people making the major decisions as oppose to Westminster, and when
:39:53. > :39:58.they do they say we don't like this at all, we think this should be a
:39:58. > :40:02.central decision. The option to set pay at a local level did exist
:40:02. > :40:06.under Labour, didn't it? This did. What is happening now the
:40:06. > :40:10.trusts are being encouraged to do a great many things they were never
:40:10. > :40:15.encouraged to do before, such as buy supplies and so on. I think
:40:15. > :40:22.this trust has made a big decision which is a mistaken one, because I
:40:22. > :40:25.think that if you do, if you offer lower wages here than elsewhere, in
:40:25. > :40:28.the short-term you won't fill posts, and I don't think they are queuing
:40:28. > :40:31.dough the road at the hospitals at the moment to come and work in the
:40:31. > :40:35.South West trust, and secondly, in the long-term, I am afraid you are
:40:35. > :40:40.not going to attract the highest quality of people and Health
:40:40. > :40:43.Services will suffer here. Briefly George? It is important they carry
:40:43. > :40:47.the unions and industry and employees with them on this. This
:40:47. > :40:52.is where things have gone wrong. Anne says people won't be queuing
:40:52. > :40:57.up for job, they may go elsewhere. What is more likely we are not
:40:57. > :41:02.talking about paying people less, no-one will have a pay cut but
:41:02. > :41:06.there might be more flex bill in shift patterns. If you can protect
:41:06. > :41:11.the front line by having flexibility, it is not something
:41:11. > :41:15.they should rule out completely. The coalition's flagship Welfare to
:41:15. > :41:18.Work programme was heralded as a break from the past. The Government
:41:18. > :41:21.says the not-for-profit organisations who help the long-
:41:21. > :41:26.term unemployed find jobs are saving taxpayers thousands, but
:41:26. > :41:31.Labour say the scheme is a flop and figures released this week make
:41:31. > :41:38.uncomfortable reading bg here in the south-west the figures are
:41:38. > :41:43.especially alarming. Roxanne is 22, and one of the lucky one, she has
:41:43. > :41:48.started a full-time job with a housing association. Beforehand,
:41:48. > :41:52.Roxanne was unemployed for over a year. What has helped her and 1300
:41:52. > :41:58.others in the region get a job is the Government's new work programme.
:41:58. > :42:02.You know, I have never had full- time work before, it has always
:42:02. > :42:09.been part-time. To be honest, I never thought I would have a job
:42:09. > :42:14.that I would enjoy so much as I do here. Roxanne has been taking part
:42:14. > :42:18.in an experiment, where firms and charities are paid to help find
:42:18. > :42:23.jobs for the long-term unemployed, while she has benefited not even is
:42:23. > :42:28.so impressed as details of the work programme's first year emerged.
:42:28. > :42:31.figures show the work programme isn't working, in fact it's a
:42:31. > :42:33.miserable failure and the reason it is a failure is because the
:42:33. > :42:37.Government is not showing its responsibilities to make the work
:42:37. > :42:45.available for people. The scheme marked its first birthday with
:42:45. > :42:50.figures showing that of the 8 -- 878,000 who were referred, 31,000
:42:50. > :42:54.were employed for at least six months. The Government's minimum
:42:54. > :43:00.target was 5.5% of the total to have been helped. The figures show
:43:00. > :43:05.it is 3.5. It is worse in the south-west, where one of the main
:43:05. > :43:08.providers Prospect has only found long-term employment for 2%.
:43:08. > :43:12.Government ministers though are still up beat. This scheme isn't a
:43:12. > :43:17.failure. It is getting people into work, off benefit, that is what the
:43:17. > :43:21.scheme was designed to do. We need to get the providers to work harder,
:43:21. > :43:26.to share data, to improve their performance. But in the past,
:43:26. > :43:30.ministers have had their doubts about whether the programme can
:43:30. > :43:35.deliver. This charity was one of several providers in the region
:43:35. > :43:40.that has gone into administration. And earlier this year North Devon
:43:40. > :43:44.MP Nick Harvey questioned the scheme. He wrote to Chris Grayling
:43:44. > :43:48.saying the funding model is in trouble. All of this alarmed some
:43:48. > :43:52.of those desperately looking for work. This Plymouth man expects to
:43:52. > :43:56.join the scheme after being out of work for 11 months. I do feel that
:43:56. > :44:01.the large amount of money they are spending would better creating new
:44:01. > :44:04.jobs instead of trying to get people into jobs that don't exist.
:44:04. > :44:09.The work programme has been described as a giant dating agency
:44:09. > :44:14.for jobs. Trying to match the long term unemployed with a long-term
:44:14. > :44:22.job. True love rarely runs smooth and some argue the programme is on
:44:22. > :44:26.the rocks. But in Redruth things are going strong for Roxanne. Good
:44:26. > :44:31.news for people like Roxanne, we saw ta, but in the south-west only
:44:31. > :44:35.2% of those people who signed up for this scheme have got a job for
:44:35. > :44:40.longer than six months. George, is it working? Well, I think if you
:44:40. > :44:44.focus on the figures over six months you are going to get the
:44:45. > :44:49.figures you have reflected. That is the idea, back in to long-term.
:44:49. > :44:53.There are 200,000 people, one in four have done some work and come
:44:53. > :44:57.off benefits for a period. Which is the first step. These are people
:44:57. > :45:00.who have been long-term unemployed. It is... But they are back
:45:00. > :45:06.unemployed now. One of the things I have raised with ministers myself,
:45:06. > :45:10.is that because we are in a challenging labour market, where
:45:10. > :45:12.there is high unemployment, we may need to tweak and refine the way
:45:12. > :45:18.the programme works and particularly the payments that go
:45:18. > :45:22.to the providers, but the scheme's ultimately a good scheme. Better
:45:22. > :45:26.than the new deal scheme the previous Government had. Why? Only
:45:26. > :45:30.2% of people are getting a long- term job. Actually, Government
:45:30. > :45:34.modelling suggests that 5% of people would get a job any way, so
:45:34. > :45:38.at 2%, you are better off not to sign up to this scheme. You are
:45:38. > :45:43.keep going on about the 2%. One in four people have done some work,
:45:43. > :45:46.and that is the first step to them getting back into a long-term job.
:45:46. > :45:53.It works, because it is payment by result, what happened in the past
:45:53. > :46:00.you had providers going through the motions, ticking box, not helping
:46:00. > :46:03.people. Because is payment by result it challenges providers to
:46:03. > :46:06.think carefully about who they engage and the support they offer
:46:06. > :46:10.people. Anne, George is saying your scheme didn't work, under Labour
:46:10. > :46:14.the scheme isn't working, is that fair? I don't think it is fair. A
:46:14. > :46:20.great many people benefited, particularly from the new deal. But,
:46:20. > :46:23.this scheme, we all want to work, we all desperately agree people
:46:23. > :46:27.shouldn't be long-term unemployed and we shouldn't have generations
:46:27. > :46:31.of people and in families who have never worked. We shouldn't have
:46:31. > :46:36.people better off not working than working. All that that Iain Duncan
:46:36. > :46:42.Smith has tried to do is right. isn't it working? Why are only 2%
:46:42. > :46:49.of people getting a job? The first thing I would want to know what are
:46:49. > :46:52.the explanation for the difference, up in Thames Valley it is 5%.
:46:52. > :46:55.is possibility the jobs aren't here. That is a possibility. What is
:46:55. > :46:59.important is growth F there is growth in an area and jobs are
:46:59. > :47:06.being created there is much more opportunity to find people to fill
:47:06. > :47:10.those jobs. George?. The frame with the two contractors have taken
:47:10. > :47:15.different approaches. Prospects have tended to sub contract the
:47:16. > :47:19.entire package to smaller charities, group, whereas Working Links have
:47:19. > :47:23.take an different approach. They take each of the clients through
:47:23. > :47:28.the programme and buy in specialist support from small charity, who
:47:28. > :47:32.focus on individual areas. This is to do with the training. Now we are
:47:32. > :47:36.saying there aren't the job for people in the south-west, so may
:47:36. > :47:40.you are barking up the wrong tree. Maybe you need investment for the
:47:40. > :47:43.jobs in the first place. I don't accept that, the work programme is
:47:43. > :47:48.designed to help the long-term unemployed. We have to recognise
:47:48. > :47:53.the fact that in the last ten years, where we had rising employment, the
:47:53. > :47:56.jobs were being filled by people coming in from abroad and from
:47:56. > :47:59.immigrants because we weren't managing to get the long-term
:47:59. > :48:03.unemployed back to work. So let us put that to Anne. In the last ten
:48:03. > :48:07.years we weren't able to get people back in to work. Maybe the level of
:48:07. > :48:11.investment in the south-west needed wasn't happening during the boom
:48:11. > :48:15.times. I think you are right on that. I think there has been a lack
:48:15. > :48:19.of investment in infrastructure, that is apparent now, but I think
:48:19. > :48:23.what is crucial is that we look to how we avoid the problem we have
:48:23. > :48:27.got into, with the welfare state generally. This was part of the
:48:27. > :48:30.scheme, your Government has produced. These figures are
:48:30. > :48:33.disappointing for everybody. What a minister should be doing now is
:48:33. > :48:38.saying we have got to make sure we understand why this is not
:48:38. > :48:42.happening, as we hoped it would. If it is not going to work, we have to
:48:42. > :48:45.pull the plug on it and not let it run for five years and we have to
:48:45. > :48:51.be looking at what the alternatives are we should be doing at the same
:48:51. > :48:54.time. That means investment. Moving on then to the floodwater, the
:48:54. > :48:59.floodwaters may be going down but the issues they raised are still
:48:59. > :49:03.high on the political agenda. On Friday, the Government announced an
:49:03. > :49:08.extra �120 million for the flood defence budget but council leaders
:49:08. > :49:11.in the South West say the region needs more money for roads and rail
:49:11. > :49:14.network. Flood victims are still waiting to find out whether the
:49:14. > :49:20.Government will help them get insurance. This package was put
:49:20. > :49:23.together before the announcement on flood defences. The storms that hit
:49:23. > :49:26.the south-west haven't just left hundreds of properties in deep
:49:26. > :49:31.water. The Government's come under inceeing pressure over its funding
:49:31. > :49:35.of flood defences. -- increasing. The Prime Minister visited Devon,
:49:35. > :49:40.he had this to say. We have to make sure that the Environment Agency
:49:40. > :49:45.put in place good flood defence, there are lessons to learn and I
:49:45. > :49:49.wanted to come here and hear it for myself. Some say that was a bit
:49:49. > :49:52.rich. The Government has cut 30% from investment in flood defence,
:49:52. > :49:56.one of the biggest cuts it has made to any area of Government spending.
:49:56. > :50:01.I said when it did this this would be a false economy, because for
:50:01. > :50:07.every pound you spend on flood defences you save �8 in avoided
:50:07. > :50:11.flooding and the cost and misery. Ben Bradshaw says his constituency
:50:11. > :50:16.is a case in point. The flood defences here worked this time, but
:50:16. > :50:20.there are warnings that the 50- year-old system is? Urgent need of
:50:20. > :50:23.a �25 million upgrade. The question is, where all this money is going
:50:24. > :50:28.to come from. David Cameron's encouraging the idea of private
:50:28. > :50:33.money being used for flood defences, and some councillors in Exeter say
:50:33. > :50:36.local businesses will have to find the missing �6 million the city's
:50:36. > :50:39.project needs. But the Prime Minister's coalition colleagues in
:50:39. > :50:45.the south-west believe the region does need extra Government support.
:50:45. > :50:50.Not just for flood defence, but for repairs to our roads and railways.
:50:50. > :50:54.We have the needs down here as much as everywhere else. What we don't
:50:54. > :51:00.always get is a fair share, in my view, we have got to lobby better
:51:00. > :51:06.for ourselves, so that we get the support down here, that we can
:51:06. > :51:14.improve. We are very much the end of the line, in some respects.
:51:14. > :51:19.Government's also under pressure over flood insurance. Lost
:51:19. > :51:26.withyell's's owner Joe's shop flooded and he can't afford the
:51:26. > :51:31.flood cover now. The Nobody will touch me for flood unless a pay a
:51:31. > :51:35.lot. I have none. That is it. deal between the Government and
:51:36. > :51:40.insurers that means flood victims are offered cover, even if it is
:51:40. > :51:47.pricy runs out next year. The industry says with state help it
:51:47. > :51:51.could offer cheaper premiums to people like Joe. We call it flood
:51:51. > :51:55.Rewhich provides for affordable and available flood insurance for those
:51:55. > :52:01.at highest risk. We need Government support. Over the long-term there
:52:01. > :52:04.will be enough money in this flood in insurance fund but we need their
:52:05. > :52:08.support in case a large flood happens in the first year, before
:52:08. > :52:11.there is enough to pay for the claims fully. Negotiations over
:52:11. > :52:15.this are said to have reached deadlock, David Cameron said he
:52:15. > :52:20.will take a tough approach. Joe is worried if he is flooded again he
:52:20. > :52:27.will lose his business. Last weekend he says all he could do was
:52:27. > :52:31.watch the swollen river with his fingers firmly crossed. George,
:52:31. > :52:35.this �120 million for flood defences announced on Friday, is it
:52:35. > :52:40.the mission by the Government that it was wrong to cut the flood
:52:40. > :52:46.defence budget? No, I think it is adding to what we are doing. It is
:52:46. > :52:51.worth bearing in mind that flood defence and capital spending is the
:52:51. > :52:56.singer in DEFRA, huge amounts. There was going to be about 2.2
:52:56. > :53:01.billion going on flood definances to give new protection to 140,000
:53:01. > :53:08.homes. The additional money today in the the most pressing areas,
:53:08. > :53:14.allowing another 50 or so schemes will protect another 60,000 homes.
:53:14. > :53:17.I know Ben Bradshaw says it was cut, you have to put that in con tect
:53:17. > :53:21.tect, the Labour Government said they were going to cut spending.
:53:21. > :53:25.The new Government hasn't cut any furtherment we have gone out of our
:53:25. > :53:28.way to find new money for infrastructure. These cuts would
:53:28. > :53:33.have had to happen any way because they had to find the savings and
:53:33. > :53:38.the last Government were going to do the same. The keelings
:53:38. > :53:42.Government is doing a good thing now? It is doing a good thing in
:53:42. > :53:46.putting money in on Friday, thank goodness, but we have been
:53:47. > :53:50.underspending for years on flood defence, everyone has to accept
:53:50. > :53:53.that. We have been building in places we shouldn't have been. We
:53:53. > :53:58.have not been spending money on infrastructure to deal with getting
:53:58. > :54:01.water away, and the result is not just people who have got know no
:54:01. > :54:04.insurance, can't afford the premiums but people who can't move
:54:04. > :54:07.because no-one will buy their houses because of the insurance and
:54:07. > :54:12.the flooding position. What should the Government be doing? They have
:54:12. > :54:18.to get a deal in place with the insurer, there were questions last
:54:18. > :54:23.week in the Lords. Is that why this money is announced. As a bargaining
:54:24. > :54:27.tool with the insurers: I am not sure I am on the DEFRA Select
:54:27. > :54:30.Committee. We have been pressing the Government on this for the last
:54:30. > :54:35.18 month, they need to get a new deal in place when the one that was
:54:35. > :54:40.set up in 2008 that ran for five years expires. Why is there a
:54:40. > :54:43.problem? There appears to be deadlock over the detail. Perhaps
:54:43. > :54:48.bring man ship going on. The Government is going to make sure
:54:48. > :54:52.there will be some deal in place to replace the old one when it expires
:54:52. > :54:57.next year. You mentioned the issue of billing on flood plain, we have
:54:57. > :55:01.problems with the railways we have seen last week, the railways were
:55:01. > :55:06.closed, why have we seen such a lack of investment in things like
:55:06. > :55:10.the railway, what should be done about that? I can't answer that. I
:55:10. > :55:13.don't think anybody can. We ought to have been channelling more into
:55:13. > :55:18.long-term investment and allowing what were boom year, and there is
:55:18. > :55:22.no way round that. I don't just point my finger at the Labour Party
:55:22. > :55:24.and the Labour Government for that, it has been going o on for many
:55:24. > :55:29.many years. We face this problem, particularly in Cornwall, where
:55:29. > :55:31.they say we can't make the business case stack up to do this investment
:55:31. > :55:34.in rail. I don't think... It does come back to the discussion about
:55:34. > :55:39.the jobs, you have to have the infrastructure in place if you are
:55:39. > :55:43.going to bring more businesss to the area. I would like to see a lot
:55:43. > :55:48.more rail investment in the far south-west. We have billions of
:55:48. > :55:54.pounds going into high speed rail links. What are you going to do
:55:54. > :55:57.about it? I have been putting pressure on the franchise to get
:55:57. > :56:01.agreement. Cornwall Council are going to work with Network Rail and
:56:01. > :56:05.the franchisees on this. Do you think we will see... What upsets
:56:05. > :56:10.people is they see money going elsewhere, and it is not coming
:56:10. > :56:16.down here, is it. That is very upsetting. It upsets me as much as
:56:16. > :56:20.anybody else. That is why I and all the other MPs in Devon and Cornwall
:56:20. > :56:24.push it, we meet regularly to talk about rail infrastructure in Devon
:56:24. > :56:29.and Cornwall. We are pressing the case, with the new franchise coming
:56:29. > :56:33.up there is an opportunity to think creatively and work with Local
:56:33. > :56:37.Authorities, using European money we can qualify for as well,
:56:37. > :56:47.sometimes. We have move on, now we have our regular round up of the
:56:47. > :56:50.
:56:50. > :56:54.The Campaign to Protect Rural England was alarmed when the
:56:54. > :56:58.planning minister said we should build homes on another 3% of the
:56:58. > :57:01.countryside.. If they want to have people able to bring up their kids
:57:01. > :57:07.in a small house with a garden, they have got to accept that we
:57:07. > :57:12.have got to build more on some open land. The plan to put a minimum
:57:12. > :57:18.price on alcohol moved forward. The launch of the consultation was week
:57:19. > :57:23.welcomed, but Ben Bradshaw said it would never happen and said he
:57:24. > :57:29.would buy Sarah Wollaston a crate of cider if it did. MPs said
:57:29. > :57:31.National Park member should be directly elected. If we want
:57:31. > :57:36.thriving businesses, communities in our National Parks, then we need to
:57:36. > :57:40.make sure that decisions are taken by people chose been by the local
:57:40. > :57:50.communities, and there was a wee problem in Parliament for Ben
:57:50. > :57:52.
:57:52. > :57:56.Bradshaw. Urine pouring through the ceiling of his commons office.
:57:56. > :58:01.Mr Bradshaw. It's a new meaning to flooding. Minute mull pricing for
:58:02. > :58:07.alcohol, do you think it will happen? Ben Brad Shaw says not.
:58:07. > :58:11.What is your take on it. It is a very powerful drinks industry at
:58:11. > :58:16.work, I know people think it makes a huge difference, you look at
:58:16. > :58:20.countries where alcohol is cheaper they don't have our binge drinking
:58:20. > :58:24.culture, the problem is the culture rather than the cost. You think it
:58:24. > :58:29.will happen or you don't? I think it is doubtful. The drinks industry
:58:29. > :58:32.is very powerful. OK. George what do you think? Will this happen?
:58:32. > :58:36.mean I think it could happen, the Prime Minister has indicated he is
:58:36. > :58:41.keen on this idea. I think it is something we should look at,
:58:41. > :58:46.because you know over the last ten, 20 years we have put up beer duty
:58:46. > :58:50.and duties on alcohol, being detrimental to pubs, that is a bad
:58:50. > :58:53.thing, we should encourage people to drink socially, in pubs when
:58:53. > :58:58.sometimes perhaps if they have to drive they have to limit to one
:58:58. > :59:03.drink any way. What we have encouraged by having too high
:59:03. > :59:08.duties in pubs is a culture where people go to the supermarket and
:59:08. > :59:11.buy cheap alcohol and preload. Drinking before they go out? They
:59:11. > :59:15.get hammered before they go out and you end up with fights and all
:59:15. > :59:20.sorts of problems. This is a major issue for people operating
:59:20. > :59:26.nightclubs, they have people turn up... We need to encourage a quick
:59:26. > :59:32.bet in the studio who will it happen, won't it happen? I think it
:59:32. > :59:38.will happen. If I will have to buy cider because Sarah won't drink it.