:01:21. > :01:24.In the South West, will the so- called bedroom tax ease our housing
:01:24. > :01:34.crisis? And will council plans to cut beach
:01:34. > :01:34.
:01:34. > :42:37.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2463 seconds
:42:37. > :42:45.services damage the region's Hello. Why am Martin Oates. Coming
:42:45. > :42:51.up: Has the male of Torbay -- email of Torbay changed his mind about
:42:51. > :42:55.tourism? I don't recall saying that. We have
:42:55. > :43:00.got it on tape. I would like to listen to the Tate, because I don't
:43:00. > :43:09.recall that. I am joined by Alison Seabeck,
:43:09. > :43:12.Labour MP, and by the Plymouth MP Robin Teverson. There was some good
:43:12. > :43:17.news this week in terms of more money for flood defences in the
:43:17. > :43:23.region, but it leaves this issue of people not being able to get flood
:43:23. > :43:26.insurance. Many people get it now because a deal was struck between
:43:26. > :43:33.the previous government and the insurers which runs out in five
:43:33. > :43:37.months, and it has of being replaced. It is a worry for people
:43:37. > :43:41.who have been flooded out. I spoke to the Secretary of State last week
:43:41. > :43:45.and he assures me and others that those negotiations are going on.
:43:45. > :43:48.The insurance industry is being tough about it. The Government is
:43:48. > :43:51.determined to get that fixed. Hopefully it will be. In the
:43:51. > :43:56.meantime, there are many people with white carpets who are
:43:56. > :44:00.concerned about his. We have had people from the insurance industry
:44:00. > :44:05.saying these negotiations are we problem. The Government recently
:44:05. > :44:09.said the negotiations were going swimmingly. The insurance companies
:44:09. > :44:16.are trying to give away as little as possible. They are putting
:44:16. > :44:22.residents in a difficult position. The present deal, Alison, was
:44:22. > :44:28.negotiated in 2008. It was agreed then that it would expire now. DQ
:44:28. > :44:35.and -- is this a ticking bomb? original deal was that it would be
:44:35. > :44:39.short term. The insurance companies would not have come to the table it
:44:39. > :44:44.was a prolonged process. The point is that there are now 200,000
:44:44. > :44:47.people or more he potentially have homes which cannot be insured after
:44:47. > :44:53.June this year unless the Government can get the insurance
:44:53. > :44:57.companies to broker a deal. hope they do. Five months and
:44:57. > :45:01.counting. The so-called bedroom tax sounds as if it should belong in
:45:01. > :45:06.the 18th century along with the window tax. David Cameron pointed
:45:06. > :45:09.out that it is not pay tax at all, but a cut in housing benefit which
:45:09. > :45:15.many people fear will cause problems for people in the South
:45:16. > :45:21.West in a few months. It has been the family home for 17
:45:21. > :45:25.years, but Michelle Kent says a hate -- each a change to housing
:45:25. > :45:31.benefit called the bedroom tax is leaving her with a stark choice.
:45:31. > :45:37.Lose out or -- move out or lose cash. This is not about bricks and
:45:37. > :45:41.mortar. This is my home and I have been here for 17 years. From April,
:45:41. > :45:45.working-age people in social housing deemed to have spare rooms
:45:45. > :45:52.will get less housing benefit. Disabilities mean that Michelle
:45:52. > :45:58.Clark work, but her home has three bedrooms and anyone of her three
:45:58. > :46:00.children lives at home, so she will lose about �12 a week. I feel that
:46:00. > :46:10.making somebody find some money from the bare minimum of what they
:46:10. > :46:19.have got in the first place, I did then that is fair on anybody.
:46:19. > :46:25.-- I did think that is fair. change, the Government claims, will
:46:25. > :46:30.bring fairness back into the system. For two weeks, this has been under
:46:30. > :46:33.scrutiny at PMQs, with Alison Seabeck raising the case of a
:46:33. > :46:37.constituent whose son in the armed forces might not have a bedroom
:46:37. > :46:40.when he comes home. There are many people in private rented
:46:40. > :46:47.accommodation who don't have housing benefit and cannot afford
:46:47. > :46:50.extra bedrooms, and we have to get control of housing benefit. We are
:46:50. > :46:55.spending �23 billion on housing benefit, and we have to get back
:46:55. > :46:59.under control. Critics argue that although the Government might be
:46:59. > :47:03.right to tackle the housing benefit bill, this policy is not the right
:47:03. > :47:08.way to do it, as there is simply not the social housing available
:47:08. > :47:12.for people to downsize to. How can it possibly may sense to force
:47:12. > :47:16.people into a situation where they cost the state more, not less, by
:47:16. > :47:20.moving into the private rental sector?
:47:20. > :47:27.The councillor in charge of housing in Cornwall echoes the Cup -- these
:47:28. > :47:34.concerns. The bedroom tax will hit the people who need housing and
:47:34. > :47:37.those people on low incomes. It will not deliver what the
:47:37. > :47:43.Government wanted to deliver, which is for people to downsize. There
:47:43. > :47:50.are not enough houses for people to downsize in tea. Michelle showed me
:47:50. > :47:54.her third bedroom. You can see how small this is. Hair MP suggested
:47:54. > :47:58.she could take in a lodger to cover her costs. Michelle thinks this is
:47:58. > :48:05.ridiculous. Sarah Newton acknowledges that every case is
:48:05. > :48:10.different. Cornwall council this financial year will be getting just
:48:10. > :48:15.under �900,000, so where there are people who can't move, especially
:48:15. > :48:18.people with disabilities to need a spare room, foster-parents, they
:48:18. > :48:22.actually can have helped if they can't afford to make it up.
:48:22. > :48:25.Government says the changes are not about forcing people to move, and
:48:25. > :48:30.that it is expected most people will find a way to make up the
:48:30. > :48:33.shortfall. With other welfare reform is about to a factor as well,
:48:33. > :48:37.Michelle says that sometimes it is not that simple. The difference
:48:37. > :48:40.with this is that it does not affect everybody, so those that he
:48:40. > :48:48.desired effect cannot see what is going on and cannot see what it is
:48:48. > :48:53.doing to people like me. Robin, you are a councillor in
:48:53. > :49:00.Cornwall. Do you agree with your fellow councillor in that package
:49:00. > :49:03.that it will be a problem to find smaller properties? Mark Kaczmarek
:49:03. > :49:09.has a fair bit of knowledge about that. It is not quite as simple
:49:10. > :49:17.about it -- as simple as that. We do have a small stock of social
:49:17. > :49:23.housing. The Labour Party reduced the social housing stock by nearly
:49:23. > :49:28.500,000 units. We have to live with that at the moment, though. Exactly.
:49:28. > :49:32.That is why we need to use the current stock more effectively. We
:49:32. > :49:36.do not have a lot of social housing being built. What we have to do is
:49:36. > :49:45.try to make sure we have some mobility within that market, like
:49:45. > :49:50.it is in the private sector. It the real problem is the 5 million
:49:50. > :49:53.people nationwide that are on waiting lists, not even in houses
:49:53. > :49:56.at the minute, but we have to help the one see what they're at the
:49:56. > :50:02.moment. You talk about moving into the private sector. Ed Miliband
:50:02. > :50:06.said it would be a bad thing to happen. He may be prejudiced
:50:06. > :50:11.against the private sector... might be more expensive, which
:50:11. > :50:16.would defeat the object, he is think. No, what we're trying to do
:50:16. > :50:19.here, the object is, and it is a difficult process, because the
:50:19. > :50:23.amount of investment in housing stock by the last government has
:50:23. > :50:27.been minimal, is that we have to try to get the stock that we have
:50:27. > :50:32.got working better, which means that the one million or so bedrooms
:50:32. > :50:38.that are out there can provide better value for tax paper --
:50:38. > :50:42.taxpayers. So Robin is saying that this is part of the inheritance
:50:42. > :50:45.from the Labour Party. Also, he seems to be saying that if people
:50:45. > :50:51.move into the private sector, this is part of the solution. This is
:50:51. > :50:55.not part of the solution. We need more homes. Everyone is agreed on
:50:55. > :50:59.that. The point about the private sector is that if more people are
:50:59. > :51:04.beginning to the private sector, and I know because I met some
:51:04. > :51:08.landlords in the South West recently, there are simply not the
:51:08. > :51:10.private properties in the private sector either. So what you do is
:51:10. > :51:14.put pressure on the private sector which means that prices go up
:51:14. > :51:17.because there is a scarcity, housing benefit comes in for others
:51:17. > :51:21.at a different level, and the housing benefit bill will continue
:51:21. > :51:26.to rise. We have seen this in London where there is pressure on
:51:26. > :51:30.the private sector. This is not the solution. It is a ham-fisted
:51:30. > :51:34.attempt by the Government and it is hurting people. As the woman said
:51:34. > :51:38.in the film, this is not just about the bedroom tax, but about council
:51:38. > :51:43.tax benefit changes which will also hit the working poor, and they are
:51:43. > :51:50.simply saying to me, why is David Cameron doing this to people like
:51:50. > :51:58.us? What about the people who have their houses, Alison? It is all
:51:58. > :52:02.about people you are lucky enough, they're all sort of challenge is
:52:02. > :52:07.there, but there is a whole raft of people who cannot afford housing at
:52:07. > :52:12.all and have no prospect of housing at all. That was the last
:52:12. > :52:15.Government's doing. No, it wasn't. The social housing budget was cut
:52:15. > :52:20.almost in half by Eric Pickles, so the blame for the lack of
:52:20. > :52:26.building... 400,000 less social housing units in stock at the end
:52:26. > :52:31.of the Labour government than at the beginning. That is a fact.
:52:31. > :52:40.are putting the right to buy issue into the debate. The point is that
:52:40. > :52:47.more houses that get build that -- that were built under the last
:52:47. > :52:53.Labour government they are being built now. We were up to 210,000
:52:54. > :52:57.houses a year. We need 250, and it was on an upward trend. We are now
:52:57. > :53:02.seeing more homeless people, fewer planning applications. This
:53:02. > :53:06.government is not building houses. Nationally, during the period of
:53:06. > :53:10.the Labour government, there were no more than three digits, it never
:53:10. > :53:13.got into the thousands of council houses that were built. Should
:53:13. > :53:20.people be in bigger houses than they need? It is wasteful, isn't
:53:20. > :53:24.it? No. We need to look at people occupy their homes, clearly. We
:53:24. > :53:30.have a different mindset. The lady on the film, when she took her home,
:53:30. > :53:33.it was her home for life. If you are starting to rent from scratch
:53:33. > :53:37.now, you would say to people, this is your home, but we may need to
:53:37. > :53:40.look at how will you cannot abide and if you need all your dreams. It
:53:40. > :53:45.is really difficult to suddenly draw a line in the sand and say,
:53:45. > :53:53.sorry, that is not your home any more and you cannot have your son
:53:53. > :54:00.or your carer to come and stay. Disability and carers, that's
:54:00. > :54:03.allowed, and foster parents as well. With respect, if you look at my
:54:03. > :54:07.caseload and the people you are getting advice, and I have had
:54:07. > :54:10.advice from Lord Freud himself about some of these people,
:54:10. > :54:14.including the lady with the sun in the armed forces, it is entirely
:54:14. > :54:17.contradictory. People need clarity and they are not getting it, and
:54:17. > :54:24.some people are genuinely frightened that they will lose
:54:24. > :54:30.their homes. Pensioners are excluded from this, people with
:54:30. > :54:33.Careys and those who are foster- parents. We must move on.
:54:33. > :54:39.Councils and coats, and all too familiar refrain, especially at
:54:39. > :54:46.this time of year. -- councils and cuts. Torbay has the region's an
:54:46. > :54:50.elected Mayor and has cut �10 million to balance the books. --
:54:50. > :54:54.only elected Mayor. It has been a while since Torbay
:54:54. > :54:58.was the destination of choice when it came to summer holidays. Glamour
:54:58. > :55:03.may have faded from the English Riviera, but tourism is still its
:55:03. > :55:08.most important business. No wonder that eyebrows were raised when the
:55:08. > :55:11.Mayor announced a series of money- saving measures. The Tourist
:55:11. > :55:15.Information Centre in Paignton will close for good, and on the beaches,
:55:16. > :55:21.the day's blue flags might be removed for ever. I am not a local,
:55:21. > :55:25.but I have been coming here for 10 years, and I live here now. I think
:55:25. > :55:30.they drive people away, because people would come here. On the face
:55:30. > :55:34.of it, 142,000 hand-cut in beach cleaning might seem like small beer,
:55:34. > :55:40.given the cuts elsewhere. But many believe that tourism is the goose
:55:40. > :55:43.that lays Torbay's golden egg. During the mayoral election
:55:43. > :55:49.campaign, Gordon Oliver told the Sunday Politics that Torbay needed
:55:49. > :55:53.to promote tourism a lot more. of the poorest regions in Europe...
:55:53. > :55:59.I don't recall saying that. I didn't say that, but in Europe. I
:55:59. > :56:05.would like his is an to the Tate. - - I would like to listen to the
:56:05. > :56:11.tape. We are now one of the poorest
:56:11. > :56:14.regions in Europe, yet be a Britain's second biggest holiday
:56:14. > :56:20.resort. We need to market the be a lot more. There are many things
:56:20. > :56:25.left undone. But Torbay is now faced with cuts
:56:25. > :56:29.of �10 million. It seems the May a's approach has changed. We may
:56:29. > :56:33.have our own local protocol which we can promote in end of the more
:56:33. > :56:37.efficient way instead of paying out substantial sums for the Blue Flags.
:56:37. > :56:42.There are other ways of doing these things, but it has not been to say
:56:42. > :56:46.that there is a negative aspect to it. Torbay is not alone when it
:56:46. > :56:49.comes to facing tough decisions. Cornwall's councillors on the verge
:56:49. > :56:53.of pulling funding for this magnificent stately home. Just when
:56:53. > :56:57.they thought it could not get any worse, local authorities in the
:56:57. > :57:01.region are being asked to stump up thousands of pounds for essential
:57:01. > :57:06.repairs to the South West Coast Path. If the current level of cuts
:57:06. > :57:11.continues, by 2020, we will be able to do nothing but our statutory
:57:11. > :57:15.duties, and that means we won't be able to support the local economy
:57:15. > :57:19.to improve jobs and tourism in important parts of the country such
:57:19. > :57:26.as Cornwall and Torbay. Central government is unlikely to offer any
:57:26. > :57:31.sympathy, let alone financial help. What kind of abysmal, philistine,
:57:31. > :57:35.reactionary government puts dispense above library books?
:57:35. > :57:40.people who are putting distance above those things are people who
:57:40. > :57:44.care about the General Service for the electorate. I have to say, the
:57:44. > :57:49.honourable gentleman is a bit of a luvvie, so no doubt he is looking
:57:49. > :57:55.very intensely at the drop in culture. Matthew Clarke could
:57:55. > :57:57.easily be described as a lovely. He runs a bookshop and his chairman of
:57:58. > :58:01.the Paignton Business Improvement District. He is warning councillors
:58:01. > :58:06.to tread carefully. The real problem is that when you win an
:58:06. > :58:11.award, like the Blue Flag, and then it is taken away, the publicity can
:58:11. > :58:15.damage the reputation of an area. Curtin beach services might not be
:58:15. > :58:20.the hardest decision Torbay's councillors face next week, but
:58:20. > :58:24.given the importance of tourism to the day, some fear the long-term
:58:24. > :58:28.economic consequences. We asked Gordon Oliver to join us
:58:28. > :58:31.on the programme. He was unavailable, but we are pleased to
:58:31. > :58:37.welcome Councillor Chris Lewis, one of his height of -- right-hand men.
:58:37. > :58:42.He seemed to change his mind a lot, a your boss. Tourism is our in the
:58:42. > :58:47.front line for cuts. What we have done is put a lot of money into
:58:47. > :58:54.tourism in the last two years while he has been male. He pledged to
:58:54. > :58:58.defend �50,000, which we have spent two about the day. During the
:58:58. > :59:01.Olympics we had adverts on the Tube. We went to the Midlands and
:59:01. > :59:05.promoted their. One of the problems is that a lot of people don't
:59:05. > :59:10.actually know what Torbay years or what it has to offer. We have been
:59:10. > :59:20.at their promoting it, promoted events. When the Olympic torch came,
:59:20. > :59:30.it came through a 0.5 miles in Torbay. We had an enormous turnout
:59:30. > :59:33.
:59:33. > :59:36.of 100,000 people. -- 8.5 miles. But Blue Flag beaches, that is a
:59:36. > :59:45.benchmark which is well known everywhere, and you are throwing
:59:45. > :59:49.away. You say that, but we are negotiating a to keep the blue flag
:59:49. > :59:55.status. One of the criteria of is that you have to have somebody
:59:55. > :59:59.there from the council to man the beach. We are doing that during the
:59:59. > :00:06.summer months, during school holidays, but let me tell you that
:00:06. > :00:11.I am a councillor near one of the best beaches in Torbay. We have not
:00:11. > :00:15.had a blue flag there for two years. The numbers have not gone down.
:00:15. > :00:19.People don't visit beaches because they are blue flags. There are lots
:00:19. > :00:22.of brilliant beaches across the country which don't have blue flags.
:00:22. > :00:30.We lost it because they came and inspected it on a date that we have
:00:30. > :00:35.had enormous range, and the water did not come up to the normal
:00:35. > :00:39.standard. That was one day. I think the blue flag is a bit of a red
:00:39. > :00:42.herring. But councils make a huge fuss about it when they get it, and
:00:42. > :00:47.there's a lot of bad publicity about it when they use it. I don't
:00:47. > :00:51.think we get back because of -- bad publicity. What we need to do is
:00:51. > :00:56.promote Torbay and get people coming their from the Midlands and
:00:56. > :01:01.other areas, driving down. That's what we need, people coming to
:01:01. > :01:07.Torbay. I don't think they make a judgment on the blue flag, but on
:01:07. > :01:15.other things which Gordon Oliver as Mayer is starting to do. The
:01:15. > :01:20.promenade needed a lot of work doing to it. We need more events.
:01:20. > :01:24.Can I just brink Robin in. There are a lot of prominent blue Flag
:01:24. > :01:32.beaches in Cornwall. Councils to trumpet this when beaches get Blue
:01:32. > :01:36.Flag status. Is it pointless? it is pointless. It is part of a
:01:36. > :01:45.tourism offer. I don't think it is as high-profile as it once was. Now
:01:45. > :01:53.we have sorted out problems with sewage going out into the sea, it
:01:53. > :01:57.is important. We are the premiere tourist area of the UK, and we're
:01:57. > :02:00.proud to be so. But I would say that there are many of your beaches
:02:00. > :02:08.in Cornwall that don't have the blue flag but still attract
:02:08. > :02:14.enormous numbers of holidaymakers, and tourist strip. We keep the are
:02:14. > :02:19.the ones to ourselves! Places like St Ives and other resorts do have
:02:19. > :02:29.them. Can I bring Dalacin in, because there is this broader issue
:02:29. > :02:30.
:02:30. > :02:34.of cuts to tourism. There are all sorts of complicated issues at the
:02:34. > :02:39.moment, particularly for councils like Torbay and Plymouth who are
:02:39. > :02:44.poorer councils with severe needs of one sort or another. There --
:02:44. > :02:48.they are making difficult decisions. Plymouth has decided that tourism
:02:48. > :02:55.is important and they are going to keep the investment they have got
:02:55. > :03:01.to in tourism. Mount Edgecombe is now a potentially using one of its
:03:01. > :03:04.main backers. That is a debate we need to have in Plymouth. That is
:03:04. > :03:14.the end of this debate. Thank you very much.
:03:14. > :03:16.
:03:16. > :03:19.Time now for our round-up of the Fishing reform takes a big step
:03:19. > :03:24.forward as the European Parliament votes to rent discards in less than
:03:24. > :03:29.one year. I think predominantly, a move in this direction has got to
:03:29. > :03:33.be good. Dorset's first Police Commissioner
:03:33. > :03:36.explains why he is putting up council tax. If we don't bring new
:03:36. > :03:43.police officers in, we will be on the thin edge, and that is why am
:03:43. > :03:49.asking the people of also to give 1p per day.
:03:49. > :03:53.Some MPs say the 8.5 billion -- �8.5 million pot for rural councils
:03:53. > :03:56.is not big enough. Weymouth council is looking for a Big Society
:03:56. > :04:00.solution to save the town's Pavilion. The model which we have
:04:00. > :04:04.where we put all the shows and sell the tickets and to all the
:04:04. > :04:10.advertising, all of that, that is not sustainable. And this charity
:04:10. > :04:20.for the homeless in St Austell is the first Cornish winner of the
:04:20. > :04:21.
:04:21. > :04:27.Prime Minister's BID Society award. Robin, it is true that the
:04:27. > :04:30.coalition is not closing the funding act in rural areas, that is
:04:31. > :04:40.embarrassing for people like you. Yes, it would be wrong and
:04:41. > :04:44.embarrassing. At the moment, it is widening, and I don't defend it.
:04:44. > :04:50.Although Torbay and Plymouth do not have -- have their issues, rural
:04:50. > :04:54.areas have about half the funding of their bin areas. The Labour
:04:54. > :04:59.Party is banging on about Northern cities not getting enough money at
:04:59. > :05:02.the moment. The funding reform is very complex, and I can remember
:05:02. > :05:08.working for a local government minister in government when we did
:05:08. > :05:16.into cheese sparsity into the process -- introduce sparsity into
:05:16. > :05:20.the process. The revolt case is being made very loud and clear. I