:01:20. > :01:23.In the South West: The MP longing for even a pale imitation of Maggie
:01:23. > :01:33.among today's Tories. And the man promising a return to
:01:33. > :01:33.
:01:33. > :38:00.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2186 seconds
:38:00. > :38:03.Hello, I'm Martyn Oates. Coming up on the Sunday Politics in the South
:38:03. > :38:06.West: This big fan of Margaret Thatcher is standing more candidates
:38:06. > :38:14.in the local elections than ever before, but will UKIP be a
:38:14. > :38:17.beneficiary of the Lady's legacy? And for the next 20 minutes, I'm
:38:17. > :38:19.joined by Labour peer Brenda Dean, Sarah Wollaston the Conservative MP
:38:19. > :38:29.for Totnes and Stephen Gilbert, Liberal Democrat MP for St Austell
:38:29. > :38:34.
:38:34. > :38:37.Monday, we've been deluged by archive footage of the 1980s. I hope
:38:37. > :38:45.you haven't reached saturation point yet, because we're starting today
:38:45. > :38:53.with a bit more. Brenda Dean rushed back to London
:38:53. > :39:00.from an earlier meeting in Leeds. She led women through the crowd.
:39:00. > :39:10.the unions, the stalemate is costly, with more claims to come.
:39:10. > :39:11.
:39:11. > :39:15.it is down to our determination, we will survive. Your career in many
:39:15. > :39:22.ways sort of mirrored Margaret Thatcher's. You would first woman to
:39:22. > :39:27.lead a major trade union. You were almost literally on the other side
:39:27. > :39:30.of the barricades in the 1980s. There seems to be a political
:39:30. > :39:36.consensus that she was right and you were wrong, do you accept that,
:39:36. > :39:44.looking back? I don't think it is as simple as that. When we had that
:39:44. > :39:50.dispute, we balloted our members. The overwhelming majority voted in
:39:50. > :39:54.favour, because we'd reached the end of the road on negotiations. The
:39:54. > :39:59.main stumbling block we had then was the labour laws, the anti trade
:39:59. > :40:09.union laws that had been enacted by this is that China... But Labour has
:40:09. > :40:13.
:40:13. > :40:19.done nothing. -- enacted by Mrs Thatcher. We held a ballot, we
:40:19. > :40:25.followed the law, but because of the ramifications of that antiunion
:40:25. > :40:34.legislation, what ever we did with the secondary action and the union
:40:34. > :40:40.was then second straight. What is your general verdict on your old
:40:40. > :40:49.adversarial? She wasn't directly my adversarial. Her achievement as a
:40:49. > :40:53.woman in politics in the 1970s was remarkable. She was elected leader
:40:53. > :40:58.of the Conservative party in 1975, when the position of women in
:40:58. > :41:05.Britain and indeed globally was so poorly recognised and represented
:41:05. > :41:08.that the UN declared it international woman's year. Women
:41:08. > :41:14.like me on the opposite side of the political fence were optimistic
:41:14. > :41:18.about her election, we thought that was good for women. Of course, as
:41:18. > :41:22.Prime Minister, diametrically opposed to much of what she tried to
:41:22. > :41:26.achieve. Sarah, this week you said she showed a generation of women
:41:27. > :41:30.anything is possible, but there has been persistent allegations that
:41:30. > :41:36.actually she didn't do very much for women when she was in power and she
:41:36. > :41:44.didn't behave in the way that many women would be able to or want to -
:41:44. > :41:50.a complete workaholic, are all night drinking whiskey, reading papers.
:41:50. > :41:55.Yes, that point has been made. I was a sixth form in 1979 and she
:41:55. > :42:00.certainly inspired me and suggested anything was possible now for a
:42:00. > :42:05.woman. That attitude which persisted and that women couldn't achieve,
:42:05. > :42:12.that was swept away. That legacy is important. A lot of people like you
:42:12. > :42:18.would say the key thing is the work life balance. Sleeping four hours in
:42:18. > :42:22.24 hours, there was no balance for her. No, she was absolutely
:42:22. > :42:26.dedicated to her work and that is very clear. She would have been
:42:26. > :42:31.keeping up that frantic work life balance even its she had been Prime
:42:31. > :42:38.Minister today. That is the point, she was completely committed to
:42:38. > :42:43.serving this country. She was potentially a good role model. Prime
:42:43. > :42:46.Minister in 1979, first woman, and yet it took over 20 years for women
:42:46. > :42:52.to do really start making it in Britain, whether that's in the
:42:52. > :43:02.professions... Not much in the unions, either. Boring politics,
:43:02. > :43:04.
:43:04. > :43:14.although that is changing. -- or in politics. Stephen, your political
:43:14. > :43:18.background is in the country. How do you view Margaret Thatcher's legacy?
:43:18. > :43:23.I think she was a very divisive character. You either loved her or
:43:23. > :43:28.hate it out, and certainly the communities that I represent have
:43:28. > :43:33.good reason to question some of the things that she did. I grew up in a
:43:33. > :43:35.working-class family during the 1980s and was at the raw end of some
:43:35. > :43:42.of the change is the last Conservative Government brought
:43:42. > :43:48.through. One of my earliest memories, I was coming out of school
:43:48. > :43:53.at 14, watching her resign on the steps of the French embassy. So
:43:53. > :43:56.there is a mixed legacy. There is no doubt she will go down as one of the
:43:56. > :44:01.most outstanding postwar British politicians, and there is no doubt
:44:01. > :44:04.she has left a mark on the country, but it is not entirely a positive
:44:04. > :44:12.story and it is worth just reflecting on that as we mark the
:44:12. > :44:15.events recently. Usually at this point, I say, it is time for
:44:15. > :44:21.something completely different. But this is a significant political
:44:21. > :44:26.moment, so we are sticking with the iron Lady. One Tory MP this week
:44:26. > :44:30.sighed and said, how I wish for even a pale imitation of her now. Not
:44:30. > :44:33.exactly a ringing endorsement of his present leader! We've been looking
:44:34. > :44:37.back at Margaret Thatcher's impact on the region.
:44:37. > :44:44.She had no strong personal links to the south-west other than the fact
:44:44. > :44:49.that Cornwall was a favourite holiday destination. But the effect
:44:49. > :44:54.of a time as Prime Minister was profound. The historic election of
:44:54. > :44:58.1979 brought the strongest ever representation of Conservative MPs
:44:58. > :45:08.in the south-west. 18 out of the 20 seats were held by the Tories.
:45:08. > :45:08.
:45:08. > :45:12.Today, they hold just 14. Gary was elected in 1992 after Alan Clark
:45:12. > :45:17.resigned his seat. He is in no doubt Margaret Thatcher was the driving
:45:17. > :45:22.force behind that success. They used to be an expression around the
:45:22. > :45:25.Cabinet, there is no alternative. What Mrs Thatcher said went. But
:45:25. > :45:32.that is what you need in tough times. Quite a few people today
:45:32. > :45:35.think that is what the leadership needs. There is little doubt her
:45:36. > :45:40.abrasive style and conviction sharply divided voters and proved an
:45:40. > :45:45.acquired taste among many of her own MPs. Three years into her
:45:45. > :45:55.premiership, those convictions were put to the test, and the south-west
:45:55. > :45:57.
:45:57. > :46:02.stepped up to a major role in the Falklands War. God save the Queen.
:46:02. > :46:06.Just rejoice at that news. Victory in the South Atlantic propelled the
:46:06. > :46:11.Government to electoral success once more in 1983, but there was little
:46:11. > :46:17.rejoicing in subsequent years at the dockyard, which had played a vital
:46:17. > :46:21.part in preparing the Falklands task force. By 1987, it had felt the full
:46:21. > :46:26.impact of the Thatcherite Industrial Revolution. Here, the unions fought
:46:26. > :46:32.hard but in vain to hold back the tide of privatisation. It was
:46:32. > :46:40.somebody who was good at destroying things. I'm not sure whether she was
:46:40. > :46:44.good at creating or mending things, and that was her downfall. Another
:46:44. > :46:49.factor in that downfall was undoubtedly the community charge or
:46:49. > :46:54.poll tax. In 1990 in the south-west and across the country, there were
:46:54. > :47:00.angry protests on the streets. Mrs Thatcher resigned that November, but
:47:00. > :47:06.Dorset NP Richard Drax who met her said she was a strong leader,
:47:06. > :47:12.unafraid to make tough decisions. She didn't court popularity or focus
:47:12. > :47:16.groups or spend, which so many politicians do today. She followed
:47:16. > :47:20.her gut and everyone respected her. Whether you agreed with her or not,
:47:21. > :47:25.she gained respect, and that is missing in politics today.
:47:25. > :47:29.swansong in the south-west came a decade later when she addressed a
:47:29. > :47:39.2001 general election rally in Plymouth. A delighted audience found
:47:39. > :47:40.
:47:40. > :47:45.the Ireland Lady as indomitable as ever. -- the Iron Lady. She was a
:47:45. > :47:48.strong leader but also hugely divisive. She split not just the
:47:48. > :47:55.election but also her own party. Today, many feel it still has not
:47:55. > :48:03.fully recovered. Sarah, by implication, criticism of
:48:03. > :48:05.the present leadership. I don't see it that way. What we came across in
:48:05. > :48:12.that clip was conviction. Margaret Thatcher was a conviction
:48:12. > :48:22.politician. The implication is you don't see that today. Well, the
:48:22. > :48:26.words used which is by save -- were divisive, sometimes hated.
:48:27. > :48:31.suggestion seemed to be there is not that level of conviction in politics
:48:31. > :48:35.today. I think this is a week to remember her excellent qualities,
:48:35. > :48:41.and those were her excellent qualities. In many ways, you are a
:48:41. > :48:45.conviction politician. It's got you into a bit of trouble with the
:48:45. > :48:51.whips, occasionally. It probably isn't hastening your rise in the
:48:51. > :48:53.ranks of Government, but you think it is right. I think people like and
:48:53. > :48:59.respect politicians when they know what they stand for and are prepared
:48:59. > :49:06.to stand up for it. Stephen, in terms of when politician should be
:49:06. > :49:09.driven by conscious or conviction, I'll give you a recent example. The
:49:09. > :49:16.local Government settlement, I know you and a lot of others said it was
:49:16. > :49:20.hugely unfair for role regions. All of those MPs venture fully voted it
:49:20. > :49:25.onto the statute books. If you'd voted with Labour, you would have
:49:25. > :49:33.forced them to re-examine it. think you are right, there are
:49:33. > :49:37.moments when you need to show conviction to the public. There are
:49:37. > :49:39.other times, and this is one of them, when you can be more
:49:39. > :49:44.influential working behind the scenes with ministerial colleagues
:49:44. > :49:48.to get them to look again at the issue. But you began by saying they
:49:48. > :49:54.must change their minds that this settlement and then suddenly you
:49:54. > :49:57.said, we will change it later. in my case I was not able to make
:49:57. > :50:02.the vote for personal reasons. I am determined to make sure Cornwall
:50:02. > :50:05.Council gets a fair share of the national funding. We're not getting
:50:05. > :50:12.it at the moment and I'm continuing to use my influence with colleagues
:50:12. > :50:16.in Government to make that happen. Brenda, in tones of conviction
:50:16. > :50:19.politicians, I guess what you want to be is a conviction politician but
:50:19. > :50:28.also a winner. Not necessarily selfishly, but to implement your
:50:28. > :50:30.policies. But you've got in Powell on the right, Michael foot,
:50:30. > :50:36.conviction politicians are incredibly eloquent, shouting from
:50:36. > :50:40.the sidelines throughout the careers. The problem with Margaret
:50:40. > :50:46.Thatcher was her conviction was with confrontation. And that did not give
:50:46. > :50:50.people who wanted to see a different way a chance to be part of a
:50:50. > :50:57.consensus. We ended up with record unemployment, particularly among
:50:57. > :51:01.young people, Holmes stopped being built. That legacy here in the
:51:01. > :51:06.south-west, you can see that now. A very serious housing problem. So
:51:06. > :51:09.simply to say, well, we need more conviction, what you need is
:51:09. > :51:17.conviction in someone who will lead with consensus in the country to
:51:17. > :51:24.take people forward. I believe that in Edmonton and we've got that
:51:24. > :51:27.person. OK, OK! Lady Thatcher's death coincided with
:51:27. > :51:30.two of the major parties launching their campaigns ahead of next
:51:30. > :51:32.month's local elections. But some of the smaller parties have been quick
:51:32. > :51:35.to claim they are the real conviction politicians of the 21st
:51:35. > :51:41.century. Jenny Kumah's been talking to some of them.
:51:41. > :51:46.More than 200 UK candidates are standing in the region's local
:51:46. > :51:51.elections - a record number. If any of their candidates were to be
:51:51. > :52:01.successful this time, Nigel for Raj would be celebrating the parties
:52:01. > :52:03.
:52:03. > :52:07.first breakthrough. -- Nigel Farage. The last time, they fielded 33
:52:07. > :52:11.candidates. This year, they have twice as many, fighting in almost
:52:11. > :52:15.every single ward. They are hoping to build on the support shown for it
:52:15. > :52:25.in the recent by-election in Eastleigh, where basic -- where they
:52:25. > :52:26.
:52:26. > :52:30.came second to the Lib Dems. Let's hear the Eastleigh raw! No surprise
:52:30. > :52:37.that the UK leader launched the local election manifesto in Exeter
:52:37. > :52:40.at the recent spring conference. Immigration from Eastern Europe was
:52:40. > :52:46.top of the Bill, and issue Councillors have no control over.
:52:46. > :52:50.But the party says it matters. It also says it offers real localism.
:52:51. > :52:55.The Tories talk a good game, but if you actually follow what they do,
:52:55. > :53:00.talking about building houses, you could have every single person in
:53:00. > :53:04.this area against having a new housing estate, but if it went to
:53:04. > :53:08.local Government inspectors at Whitehall, local people could be
:53:08. > :53:13.completely overwritten. That is not localism. We believe certain
:53:13. > :53:16.policies should be taken by local people at the local level and not
:53:16. > :53:21.overridden by central Government. Paula Black made history when she
:53:21. > :53:25.was elected as a Green party councillor on to Devon county
:53:25. > :53:30.council in 2009. But she defected to Labour last year, saying she felt
:53:30. > :53:35.she would be more able to serve her community if she were part of a
:53:35. > :53:39.bigger political group. One thing it demonstrates is how difficult it is
:53:39. > :53:44.to be a single councillor representing a party in the council.
:53:44. > :53:52.Unless you've got to councillors, you are not officially recognised as
:53:52. > :53:55.a party, so one of our aims would be to have at least two Mac councillors
:53:55. > :53:59.electors -- to councillors electors rather than having to work with
:53:59. > :54:04.other parties on the council. The Lib Dem leader was in Cornwall this
:54:04. > :54:09.week, launching their campaign. party is fielding 28 fewer
:54:09. > :54:14.candidates in the county this time. The Conservatives are also down by
:54:14. > :54:19.20. The number of independent -- independent candidates has also seen
:54:19. > :54:24.a drop. But Labour has increased its offering. The Cornish nationalist
:54:24. > :54:30.party is hoping the council tax row which has split the larger parties
:54:30. > :54:34.will help them build on their six councillors. We are there to
:54:34. > :54:37.actually look at what is best for Cornwall as a whole. When not
:54:37. > :54:43.looking at narrow party politics or playing games, we have some very
:54:43. > :54:47.good, political, professional candidates who are looking to put
:54:47. > :54:50.Cornwall burst and make sure that whatever budget we have to deal with
:54:50. > :54:59.is spent in the best way for the future of Cornwall and the long-term
:54:59. > :55:04.future. While many of the smaller parties are putting up more
:55:04. > :55:08.candidates in these elections, one is bucking the trend. The British
:55:08. > :55:15.National Party fielded a team candidates in 2009. This year, they
:55:15. > :55:18.are only putting up one, who is standing in Exeter.
:55:18. > :55:21.Jenny Kumah reporting, and there will of course be more information
:55:21. > :55:31.about next month's local elections and the candidates contesting them
:55:31. > :55:34.
:55:34. > :55:38.on the BBC website. Sarah, are you worried that UKIP is
:55:38. > :55:43.attracting people who don't like the modern face the Tories are
:55:43. > :55:46.presenting? Well, as that clip said, as a local councillor you cannot
:55:46. > :55:52.influence things such as immigration. You are there to make
:55:52. > :55:55.sure your local area is properly served. Despite the fact the
:55:55. > :56:00.Government says it is localising, you are saying you don't have much
:56:00. > :56:06.planning power? Well, that is interesting. There was a huge public
:56:06. > :56:11.meeting recently, and the Tories explained that localism doesn't mean
:56:11. > :56:15.that you can say no to everything. You do need to provide homes for
:56:15. > :56:19.people. What localism is about is saying where those homes should be,
:56:19. > :56:28.not just saying, we're not interested in providing homes for
:56:28. > :56:36.people, because there is a real housing crisis in the south-west.
:56:36. > :56:40.After the Eastleigh by-election, polling showed that UKIP took as
:56:40. > :56:47.many votes from the Lib Dems as they did the Tories. Is that worrying?
:56:47. > :56:51.Well, let's wait for the local elections. I agree with Sarah, you
:56:52. > :56:56.need to keep council tax low, and Lib Dems in Cornwall have delivered
:56:56. > :57:01.that. You need to make sure the bins are collected. The Conservatives
:57:01. > :57:11.running Cornwall Council did not even managed to collect rubbish
:57:11. > :57:13.
:57:13. > :57:17.recently. It is about getting those basics right. Brenda, in terms of
:57:17. > :57:22.housing, Labour have said you can choose whether houses go, but you
:57:22. > :57:26.have to ill a certain number of houses. I used to be chairman of the
:57:26. > :57:31.Housing Corporation, and certainly in the West Country and Cornwall a
:57:31. > :57:34.lot of money was spent on social housing. But there still is an
:57:34. > :57:37.enormous shortage. I think what was interesting on those clips you
:57:37. > :57:44.showed, it was all about what they are going to stay top, not what they
:57:44. > :57:49.are going to do. The gentleman said, well, when local people don't want
:57:49. > :57:57.housing, it goes up to London and they decide. But people who are
:57:57. > :58:01.homeless need housing. They are the people in the areas where UKIP want
:58:02. > :58:06.to be elected. Sir I would challenge that strongly. We do have a housing
:58:06. > :58:16.policy. Time now for our regular roundup of
:58:16. > :58:21.
:58:21. > :58:25.The Fire Brigades union attacks what it describes as the biggest cuts to
:58:25. > :58:29.frontline fire and rescue in Devon and Somerset in living memory. It
:58:29. > :58:33.says the plans are unacceptable and dangerous and should be dropped
:58:33. > :58:37.immediately. The longer you take to get to a fire, the more the fire
:58:37. > :58:40.grows, which makes it more dangerous.
:58:40. > :58:45.Devon and Cornwall's police commissioner denies his force is
:58:45. > :58:49.standing still after a drop in crime figures simply cancels out a
:58:49. > :58:53.previous rise. We're not by any means standing still and there are
:58:53. > :58:57.many people in my own office and force working hard to drive crime
:58:57. > :59:04.down and also to reduce the fear of crime.
:59:04. > :59:09.Cornwall 's children's services come after several measures after OFSTED
:59:09. > :59:12.notes significant improvements. It is now rated as adequate by the
:59:12. > :59:22.Government Inspectorate. And after 11 years of illegal
:59:22. > :59:23.
:59:23. > :59:28.occupancy, travellers next to will be given an official site.
:59:28. > :59:36.What do you make of a fire service which on the one hand says increase
:59:36. > :59:39.council tax but cut services? brand act knowledge is, there is an
:59:39. > :59:44.economic crisis that we have to deal with. There are some difficult
:59:44. > :59:51.decisions in relation to the age at which firefighters are expected to
:59:51. > :59:58.continue... But in terms of this provision of services? The balance
:59:58. > :00:02.should be left with a fire commander. But in terms of these
:00:02. > :00:06.cuts to services, Brenda, presumably instinctively you are with your
:00:06. > :00:10.colleagues in the union? Yes, instinctively, but not because they
:00:10. > :00:15.are trade unionists. Because looking at the geography of the area we are
:00:16. > :00:18.in, it is a very widespread area, you do need to have local services.
:00:18. > :00:22.The coalition's policy is local services and they are now cutting
:00:23. > :00:28.back on something which has been a really serious problem in Cornwall.
:00:28. > :00:34.There have been some dreadful fires. I think people should think twice
:00:34. > :00:37.before they get back -- they cut back on the services. The council
:00:37. > :00:42.tax is going up and they are cutting services. There are some difficult
:00:42. > :00:46.choices to make. But there is some good news, the number of fires has