:01:46. > :01:56.regional benefits cap would damage the local economy. And robust cuts
:01:56. > :01:57.
:01:57. > :37:29.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2132 seconds
:37:29. > :37:33.Hello, I'm Lucie Fisher. Coming up on the Sunday Politics in the South
:37:33. > :37:38.West: A warning to bus passengers from campaigners who fear bus
:37:38. > :37:41.funding is about to be cut by a further 15%.
:37:41. > :37:44.And for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by the Conservative MP Anne
:37:44. > :37:50.Marie Morris and Labour Councillor Nicky Williams - welcome to the
:37:50. > :37:53.programme. This week the Energy Secretary Ed
:37:53. > :37:56.Davey unveiled measures giving local communities more powers to block
:37:56. > :38:00.onshore wind farms. He said that far too often, people living nearby have
:38:00. > :38:03.seen the wind farms but not the windfall - he wants to see companies
:38:03. > :38:12.paying local people depending on how much energy is generated. But some
:38:12. > :38:18.critics say the policy could mark the end of onshore wind farms.
:38:18. > :38:23.Anne-Marie, have you given in on this one? Not at all. We need to
:38:23. > :38:28.recognise that if we want beautiful countryside as well as green energy,
:38:28. > :38:32.there needs to be a balance. The local people to be able to have a
:38:32. > :38:37.real say in what that balance should be is absolutely the way forward,
:38:37. > :38:39.particularly if they're going to get some financial benefit. You think
:38:39. > :38:46.the financial benefit will make a difference? You don't think people
:38:46. > :38:50.will just say, no, thank you. think people are far more savvy and
:38:50. > :38:55.sensible, and that is why as a government we've looked at giving
:38:55. > :38:59.them the opportunity to develop neighbourhood plans. This is part of
:38:59. > :39:03.the same move to give local communities control and respect
:39:03. > :39:08.their judgement. Nikki, what do you make of this? Could this be the end
:39:08. > :39:15.of wind farms? I think it certainly could be. We only need to look at
:39:15. > :39:18.the government 's plans for carbonisation. This is just another
:39:18. > :39:23.measure that will make it more difficult for investment in
:39:23. > :39:28.sustainable energy. Even if they get some kind of payment for having
:39:28. > :39:32.those wind farms near the house? think it's good that there are
:39:32. > :39:35.incentives for doing that, but actually, what we know by the
:39:35. > :39:41.campaigns up and down the country is people will continue to say, not in
:39:41. > :39:47.my backyard. They will actually oppose measures if they affect them
:39:47. > :39:50.personally. Well, stay with those, we've got plenty more to discuss.
:39:50. > :39:53.This week, Labour's top men set out to convince voters they can be
:39:53. > :39:55.trusted to run the economy. The shadow chancellor's "iron
:39:55. > :39:58.discipline" included the suggestion of a regional benefits cap, an idea
:39:58. > :40:01.which is already dividing Labour MPs. Some argue it makes sense to
:40:02. > :40:05.pay less housing benefit in places where rent is lower, but others are
:40:05. > :40:12.warning the South West economy would take a big hit. John Henderson
:40:12. > :40:15.reports. The war of words on welfare.
:40:15. > :40:21.Fairness is also about being fair to the person who leaves home every
:40:21. > :40:25.morning to go out to work and sees their neighbour sleep -- sleeping on
:40:25. > :40:32.benefits. George Osborne said his cap of �26,000 on benefit would do
:40:33. > :40:36.two things: yes, save him money, but, crucially, make work pay.
:40:36. > :40:41.well as a tax system where the rich pay their fair share, we have to
:40:41. > :40:44.have a welfare system that is fair to the working system -- the working
:40:44. > :40:47.people who paid for it. The benefits cap came into effect in April. In
:40:47. > :40:50.Cornwall, 114 families have had money taken away because of the cap.
:40:50. > :40:53.This week, the man who wants Osborne's job set out his plans and
:40:53. > :41:03.implied that true fairness could only be achieved by localising that
:41:03. > :41:04.
:41:04. > :41:08.benefits cap. A fair cap on household benefits, not one that
:41:08. > :41:14.costs more than it saves, but which takes account of housing costs in
:41:14. > :41:19.different parts of the country, with an independent body advising on
:41:19. > :41:22.whether the caps should be higher in high-cost areas like London, but
:41:22. > :41:26.potentially lower in other parts of the country. So how would a regional
:41:26. > :41:33.benefits cap work, and what would it mean for the South West? Exeter's MP
:41:33. > :41:37.is optimistic. It's ridiculous to have a one size fits all cap
:41:37. > :41:42.throughout the country when housing costs and rents vary so much. This
:41:42. > :41:46.is what we're talking about, housing benefit. In an area like the
:41:46. > :41:53.south-west and Exeter in particular, we have very high housing costs and
:41:53. > :41:56.rents, said the benefits cap should reflect that. The bill for housing
:41:56. > :41:59.benefit last year was a whopping �17 billion. The fear among some is that
:41:59. > :42:01.Labour's plan to control that spending with a regional benefits
:42:01. > :42:11.system could mean extra money to London claimants comes at the
:42:11. > :42:14.expense of those here. The question will then be, it's certain areas are
:42:14. > :42:24.going to receive more in terms of the benefits bill, how is this going
:42:24. > :42:25.
:42:25. > :42:31.to be paid for? Does this mean other areas are going to be squeezed?
:42:31. > :42:35.Labour MP in the North East has condemned his party's new approach.
:42:35. > :42:41.I am opposed to regional benefit caps in the same way that I am
:42:41. > :42:43.opposed to organising regional pay in the public service. It is unfair
:42:43. > :42:46.on the North of England and the south-west of England. Labour's
:42:46. > :42:49.conversation with voters on its new policies is only just beginning -
:42:49. > :42:59.its idea for a regional cap on benefits could prove to be a hard
:42:59. > :43:10.
:43:10. > :43:17.it a good idea? The devil is in the detail. It costs a lot more to live
:43:17. > :43:20.in London and we need to address that. I do have concerns about how
:43:20. > :43:25.it could impact Plymouth because we know rents are disproportionately
:43:25. > :43:29.lower than some of the immediate surrounding areas. So we really need
:43:30. > :43:39.to look at how they would intend to bring Latin and how it would affect
:43:40. > :43:40.
:43:40. > :43:46.local people. Back to bring that in. To discuss this, Brian is here with
:43:46. > :43:54.us. He has spent years working with people with benefits. Is this idea
:43:54. > :44:00.workable? I'm old enough to remember when Margaret Thatcher made housing
:44:00. > :44:06.benefits rocket. It was landlord is printing money. 13 years of the
:44:06. > :44:10.Labour government did not stop that. Housing benefit has been
:44:10. > :44:13.chopped. This idea seems to say we're going to limit housing benefit
:44:13. > :44:18.locally but private landlords can still charge what they want in the
:44:18. > :44:22.private sector. I'm not saying that is wrong for the landlord to do it,
:44:22. > :44:27.they provide a service and demeaned in many ways when they shouldn't be
:44:27. > :44:32.because many of them are very good. I can't see how this is going to
:44:32. > :44:36.work. This is a Labour policy, and something you are not sure you
:44:36. > :44:43.support. People are saying it is not even workable. Should Ed balls go
:44:43. > :44:46.back to the drawing board? We have not had the detail yet and we had a
:44:46. > :44:51.very broad announcement. What we do need to acknowledge is that people
:44:51. > :44:58.in certain parts of the country are suffering disproportionately because
:44:58. > :45:03.of the benefits cap. In Plymouth, we know that only 150 people have been
:45:03. > :45:10.affected by the benefits cap. That is probably 150 people to many, I
:45:10. > :45:14.would argue, but actually we do need to look at the more structural ways
:45:14. > :45:19.we can target resources, bearing in mind that we have a huge economic
:45:19. > :45:26.legacy which were going to inherit after that cutting of the
:45:26. > :45:30.Conservative government. Anne-Marie, Boris Johnson had some
:45:30. > :45:37.reservations about this kind of regional benefit, didn't he? What do
:45:37. > :45:45.you make of it? Interestingly, although then in your clip focused
:45:45. > :45:49.on housing, I think when I look back at what the policy was about, it was
:45:49. > :45:53.more holistic. But I do share the comment that it isn't workable,
:45:53. > :45:57.particularly if you start throwing in all the benefits, not just
:45:57. > :46:02.housing. I have concerns about what this would do to the private renting
:46:02. > :46:08.sector which we absolutely do need. It seems to be far too complex to
:46:08. > :46:14.actually work. Say in Exeter the average rent is �1100 and Plymouth
:46:14. > :46:20.about �800 for a family house. If the cap came in at �900, you might
:46:20. > :46:27.see people having to move out of Exeter and into Plymouth. I would
:46:27. > :46:33.worry about that, it is rather bizarre. It will just cause poverty
:46:33. > :46:38.and rent arrears. People will not leave their jobs. But since the
:46:38. > :46:45.spare room subsidy was introduced people have had to move out. I think
:46:45. > :46:50.that is the council tenants. We have to remember Labour did this to the
:46:50. > :46:58.private rented sector ten years ago. This exact same bedroom tax was
:46:58. > :47:02.implemented ten years ago. What would you like to see then? We need
:47:02. > :47:10.an investigation into the whole benefits system. In the 20 years
:47:10. > :47:14.I've been in advance -- advice worker, I've seen too many people
:47:14. > :47:19.living lives on benefits with no aspirations. Their children are the
:47:19. > :47:22.same. That is not fair on the children. If housing costs are lower
:47:22. > :47:28.in certain areas it does seem to make sense that they receive less
:47:28. > :47:31.benefits. There are limits to say what landlords can charge in Exeter
:47:31. > :47:40.and implement. Ed Miliband did not mention this in his keynote speech
:47:40. > :47:45.on Thursday. So you think it's all talk? I think it is another sign of
:47:45. > :47:49.dabbling. Boys and girls in the back rooms of policy people in London
:47:49. > :47:54.with not much of a clue. I'm cynical and I've been in this game for 30
:47:54. > :48:00.years. I wish they would ask is more. One fundamental point which
:48:00. > :48:06.has been mist is what was spoken about in this speech by Ed has been
:48:06. > :48:12.about making work pay. They would have more rights they been working
:48:12. > :48:21.for a longer of time. People should be valued for actually having
:48:21. > :48:30.worked. Is your benefit cap making work pay? Well, what's happening is
:48:30. > :48:40.people are beginning to look at this very -- this necessary balance
:48:40. > :48:41.
:48:41. > :48:45.between the two. In Cornwall, the average wage is 20000 and the cap is
:48:45. > :48:53.26,000, so maybe it doesn't make much sense to not have a regional
:48:53. > :49:00.cap. We all agree it is complex, but that is quite simple. It doesn't
:49:00. > :49:05.seem to make sense. The challenge is that housing benefit is not simple.
:49:05. > :49:09.It is not simply here is the amount you are paying and here is the
:49:09. > :49:15.figure. The calculation is not just here is the cap. It just doesn't
:49:15. > :49:17.work like that. Thank you very much for joining us.
:49:17. > :49:20.As ministers put the finishing touches to their 2015 spending
:49:20. > :49:23.plans, there are warnings any further cuts to bus funding would
:49:23. > :49:26.decimate the South West's rural network. Many of the region's MPs
:49:26. > :49:32.are lobbying the Treasury amid fears of 15% being slashed from bus
:49:32. > :49:42.budgets. Tamsin Melville reports. Getting the bus to and from her job
:49:42. > :49:42.
:49:42. > :49:48.at a Boscastle hotel would be a struggle for Sharon van der Linden.
:49:48. > :49:52.In the mornings I have to get dropped off because I'd have to get
:49:52. > :49:55.a three-mile walk to the bus stop anyway. And then there is a
:49:55. > :49:58.three-mile walk when I get off. Sharon's boss says a reduced service
:49:58. > :50:05.in the past year to a village reliant on tourism has been bad
:50:05. > :50:09.enough - and he's worried things could get worse. If there was a
:50:09. > :50:13.reduction in the service as it is now we would have trouble getting
:50:13. > :50:16.stats and we already have trouble getting staff. It cannot appreciate
:50:16. > :50:19.any more. Peter's fears aren't unfounded. The Campaign for Better
:50:19. > :50:25.Transport is warning buses could be hit by a 15% cut in the Spending
:50:25. > :50:28.Review at the end of this month, putting more rural services at risk.
:50:28. > :50:32.In Cornwall, bus operators have already been hit by Government cuts
:50:32. > :50:36.to a fuel rebate and a squeeze on the subsidy they get for over 60s
:50:36. > :50:46.free passes. One campaigner says any further cuts could signal a major
:50:46. > :50:46.
:50:46. > :50:53.decline in routes. In the last two years we have seen a reduction bit
:50:53. > :50:58.by bit of some routes, but I think it's could be a major service
:50:58. > :51:02.reduction, the likes of which in Cornwall we've not seen since 1971
:51:03. > :51:05.when I think 75 bus routes were withdrawn with major consequences
:51:05. > :51:08.for decades to come as a result. Some south west MPs representing
:51:08. > :51:14.rural areas are lobbying the Treasury to create a new pot of
:51:14. > :51:21.money to protect rural bus services. I think it is in the government 's
:51:21. > :51:24.interest to see economic development. Report after report has
:51:24. > :51:30.said the rural economy could generate far more jobs, could be far
:51:30. > :51:34.more of a driver for the recovery of the economy. In order for that to
:51:34. > :51:40.happen, people need to get around the rural areas. They can't all
:51:40. > :51:42.afford a car. That is why this is crucial. Back in Boscastle in Dan
:51:42. > :51:50.Rogerson's constituency, Sharon van der Linden finds the prospect of any
:51:50. > :51:52.further reduction in routes ridiculous. Well, there would be
:51:52. > :51:55.hardly anybody working because hardly anybody could get into the
:51:56. > :52:05.town. The Government's spending review will take place on the 26th
:52:06. > :52:06.
:52:06. > :52:11.June, when the transport budget for 2015-2016 will be revealed.
:52:11. > :52:15.I'm joined by transport campaigner Richard from London. Welcome to the
:52:15. > :52:20.programme. Tel is your concerns, what is making you think cuts are on
:52:20. > :52:24.the cards for bus services? The big worry we have is what is happening
:52:24. > :52:27.to the whole transport budget. Funding for London and the highway
:52:27. > :52:31.maintenance will be squeezed, and particularly funding for buses.
:52:31. > :52:37.We're worried about what will happen to the main grants for buses. It
:52:37. > :52:45.could lead to a major reduction of services in rural areas. What do you
:52:45. > :52:49.want the government to do the government to safeguard the funding
:52:49. > :52:52.this time round. We know it is difficult, but it is a gentle --
:52:52. > :52:57.essential that we don't rush into changes. In the long-term, let's
:52:57. > :53:03.look at more efficient ways of funding bus services. But a real
:53:03. > :53:07.reduction in terms of services would be disastrous. Should we be worried
:53:07. > :53:12.about these bus services? Well, if that prediction comes true then of
:53:12. > :53:17.course and I'm very concerned about Rob buses. I've made in a bob
:53:17. > :53:21.representations to the government over the years. But there are two
:53:21. > :53:25.pots of money, one goes to the bus services and one goes to the
:53:25. > :53:30.council. In my concern is because of the cuts to the councils, put the
:53:30. > :53:34.two together and you will have a problem. So I think we need a fairer
:53:34. > :53:40.way of ensuring the raw part of our community get a fair part of the
:53:40. > :53:47.funding. At the moment, the funding part which is used
:53:47. > :53:57.disproportionately puts rural people at a disadvantage. I want a fairer
:53:57. > :53:58.
:53:58. > :54:03.funding formula so we take account of the role issue. -- rural. That
:54:03. > :54:08.could work. The real worry is about short-term cuts in the same time as
:54:08. > :54:12.making changes to funding. That happened in Wales and they have seen
:54:12. > :54:16.a significant reduction in services and a rise in pairs. Let's look at a
:54:16. > :54:21.better way of trying to find funding but in the short-term let's not rush
:54:21. > :54:28.into it in a desired to find spending cuts. Labour would be in a
:54:28. > :54:32.similar position, wouldn't they? There would have be cuts? Yes, but
:54:32. > :54:37.they need technology transport is vital to a growing economy. So we
:54:37. > :54:42.need to invest in our bus services to ensure people can access work and
:54:42. > :54:46.opportunities, not only in rural areas but in our cities. I'm deeply
:54:46. > :54:50.concerned about these proposed cuts in funding because there is a
:54:50. > :54:58.limited pot of money available to councils to subsidise bus services.
:54:58. > :55:02.Where would you see cuts be made instead? I'm not going to
:55:02. > :55:06.second-guess that an answer that here. Wouldn't people living in
:55:07. > :55:13.Devon rather see things like overseas aid cut them bus services?
:55:13. > :55:17.Things that are important to them and might make the economy grow?
:55:17. > :55:21.think we need to look strategically long and hard. I cannot give you an
:55:21. > :55:25.answer on that, I'm not a government minister so I don't have charge of
:55:25. > :55:33.those finances. But we do need a fundamental review of the spending
:55:33. > :55:42.that is going on. But you may have an opinion. Is area -- is overseas
:55:42. > :55:45.aid in area that you see as a possible cut? These suggested
:55:45. > :55:52.proposals on the grapevine - we don't know whether or not these cuts
:55:52. > :55:56.will actually be made - but in terms of whether cuts should fall, I don't
:55:57. > :56:04.think anybody enjoys cuts. As to where the right places, I think that
:56:04. > :56:08.is a very difficult call to make. Should bugs -- bus passes for the
:56:08. > :56:16.over 60s be means tested? Showed some of them be given to young
:56:16. > :56:21.people who are looking for work? issue of bus passes is a good one. I
:56:21. > :56:31.think it is important that the older person as the bus pass. What if they
:56:31. > :56:32.
:56:32. > :56:38.are very wealthy? Just a me out. -- just hear me out. If it makes them
:56:38. > :56:42.go out, then it is a good thing. But if they are wealthy, it is essential
:56:42. > :56:47.that they have the chance to not use it. I think we needed charity said
:56:47. > :56:54.that those who want to can give that benefit up. Richard, do you think
:56:54. > :56:59.the over 60s bus pass is working? think it is working. There are
:56:59. > :57:03.worries about underfunding. But if you want diverse communities then I
:57:03. > :57:07.think it's really important you support the independence of older
:57:07. > :57:11.people. I think there are changes you could make to the transport
:57:11. > :57:17.budget. The government is trying to push money into infrastructure and
:57:17. > :57:20.capital expenditure, and actually not all that is needed. More buses
:57:20. > :57:28.would reduce congestion, so I think that is where we should be looking
:57:28. > :57:34.at savings. Now, our regular round-up of the
:57:34. > :57:44.political week in 60 seconds. The Prime Minister was asked if he'd
:57:44. > :57:48.retire judges who didn't imprison convicted paedophiles. We have clear
:57:49. > :57:51.laws we passed in this country about how serious Parliament thinks
:57:51. > :57:58.offences are, and judges should pay heed to those laws.
:57:58. > :58:01.Lawyers protested about cuts to legal aid. The government cuts will
:58:01. > :58:04.make it untenable to continue. The badger cull was debated in
:58:04. > :58:13.parliament, while the St Ives MP advanced plans to give badgers in
:58:13. > :58:17.his constituency a TB vaccine. two pilot areas run the risk of
:58:17. > :58:20.making the devastating problem of bovine TB significantly worse. The
:58:20. > :58:23.vaccination programme would be significantly cheaper according to
:58:23. > :58:29.the report. And a council official in Dorset
:58:29. > :58:34.explained why it's taking so long to reopen the Beaminster Tunnel.
:58:34. > :58:44.you can see the guys up there are having to abseil. It is very steep,
:58:44. > :58:47.
:58:47. > :58:52.so it is difficult. Let's look at the badger cull.
:58:52. > :58:57.Anne-Marie, do you think this could cost U-boats? Is it an unpopular
:58:57. > :59:02.measure which could cost U-boats? have to recognise the damage this is
:59:02. > :59:07.doing to farmers. Every time there is an outbreak, that is �30,000 they
:59:07. > :59:11.have to pay. We cannot allow it to go one. Half the outbreaks of bovine
:59:11. > :59:16.TB are in this region and it would be negligent to sit here and do
:59:16. > :59:20.nothing about it. Every country that has had this problem, the only way
:59:20. > :59:25.they have resolved it is by dealing with the wildlife. In Ireland they
:59:25. > :59:29.did it recently and there was a third reduction in infection. We
:59:29. > :59:34.need to look after the livelihood of our farmers and our community.
:59:34. > :59:38.you support the coal? I think the jury is still out as to how
:59:38. > :59:44.effective it might be. Other people are looking at vaccination is a
:59:44. > :59:49.problem. What about the idea that we are allowed to shoot rabbits and
:59:49. > :59:52.nobody seems to mind about that, and yet a badger seems to somehow go to
:59:52. > :59:58.the heart of people and they don't want to see that happening? Is there
:59:58. > :00:04.a difference? I think the issue is the amount of resources we are
:00:04. > :00:07.spending. Police policing the badger cull, that is a huge issue in its
:00:07. > :00:10.self. So we need to look at the pros and cons and how much it will