:01:30. > :01:34.In the South West. The �5 million cut to fire services
:01:34. > :01:44.in Devon and Somerset. And the MPs who say gypsy and
:01:44. > :01:44.
:01:44. > :38:50.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2226 seconds
:38:50. > :38:52.traveller sites shouldn't get on the Sunday Politics in the South
:38:52. > :38:56.West. The duty to provide sites for gypsies and travellers. Conservative
:38:56. > :39:01.MPs say it should be removed and we should take a much harder line with
:39:01. > :39:07.illegal camps. And for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by the Labour MP
:39:07. > :39:10.Alison Seabeck and the Conservative MEP Julie Girling.
:39:10. > :39:13.The company which runs out-of-hours GP services in Cornwall has again
:39:13. > :39:16.come in for scathing criticism from MPs. The findings were in a report
:39:16. > :39:19.commissioned by the influential Public Accounts Committee. Here's a
:39:19. > :39:26.quick reminder of the heated exchanges which took place when the
:39:26. > :39:32.company, Serco, was giving evidence to the committee.
:39:32. > :39:39.How many unfilled shifts in January this year? In terms of unfilled
:39:39. > :39:44.shifts, I'd could tell you these statistics for last Saturday.
:39:44. > :39:51.to know them for January, February and March. It is important to
:39:51. > :39:57.recognise... Just answer the question. In terms of non-clinical
:39:57. > :40:04.or clinical or smack you can define them however you want but and so the
:40:04. > :40:09.question. Unfilled shifts, recently highlighted in the media as well,
:40:09. > :40:13.that is not an accurate way to measure the service.
:40:13. > :40:19.Some might say that this is not terribly encouraging in terms of a
:40:19. > :40:28.move towards even more private sector involvement in the NHS.
:40:28. > :40:33.not familiar with the details of the Serco issue. The thing about service
:40:34. > :40:39.in the health service is that it does vary from place to place. If
:40:39. > :40:43.there is a problem in one place it needs to be sorted out and the
:40:43. > :40:51.Public Accounts Committee have got their teeth into this. I hope they
:40:51. > :40:55.come to a solution. But it does not mean, any more than all public
:40:55. > :41:02.service is bad, that all private services are bad. In terms of out of
:41:02. > :41:07.hours care, my own personal view, I have always been uncomfortable with
:41:07. > :41:13.the reforms that came in and took it away from the family prang. I
:41:13. > :41:21.thought that was a bad idea and I regret that it has not been changed
:41:21. > :41:25.since the government changed. to go back to Labour, one of Julie
:41:25. > :41:31.was my colleagues has also said that this happened in Cornwall where
:41:31. > :41:38.there was insufficient monitoring by the primary care trust. Now we have
:41:38. > :41:43.got doctors running the NHS and things are improving? I think there
:41:43. > :41:50.are wider issue. This happens in all sectors to some extent or another,
:41:50. > :41:55.public or private. The important thing is we need to get to the
:41:55. > :42:01.bottom of what happened in Cornwall. I am about to work on a
:42:01. > :42:07.Bill in Parliament designed to put a private company in charge of defence
:42:07. > :42:10.procurement. We need to be sure that accountability is in place,
:42:10. > :42:14.transparency is in place and mechanisms are there to ensure that
:42:14. > :42:18.these things are properly scrutinised to avoid the kind of
:42:18. > :42:23.examples that we have seen in Cornwall in particular. Harrowing
:42:23. > :42:27.tales coming out from Cornwall. Fewer people are dying in fires and
:42:27. > :42:30.firefighters are dealing with fewer emergency incidents.
:42:30. > :42:35.That was the justification for over �5 million worth of cuts to front
:42:35. > :42:38.line fire services in Devon and Somerset. But unions and members of
:42:38. > :42:47.the public say the austerity-driven move puts lives at risk. Jenny Kumah
:42:47. > :42:50.reports. Campaigners outside one of the most
:42:50. > :42:57.significant fire authority meetings in recent years. But their hopes
:42:57. > :43:01.were dashed as �5 million of cuts were voted through. They need to
:43:02. > :43:11.revisit their plans. The level of cuts to the front-line is just
:43:11. > :43:18.unacceptable. In Plymouth three fire engines would be cut from being
:43:18. > :43:22.crude full-time to on-call. The second fire engine in Torquay would
:43:22. > :43:29.be cut to on-call as is the second fire engine in Taunton. In
:43:29. > :43:36.Ilfracombe the fire engine is being cut from being a full crew to being
:43:36. > :43:40.on call. Plymouth, they will have on-call firefighters which means
:43:40. > :43:46.that some residents served by this station are likely to see slower
:43:46. > :43:51.response times. At the moment if you live here near Plymouth Fire can get
:43:51. > :43:54.to you in an emergency within ten minutes. But under the changes this
:43:55. > :44:00.week response times would be slower and you could have to wait up to
:44:00. > :44:08.three minutes longer. The Fire Brigades union says the cuts will
:44:08. > :44:14.put lives at risk. It is quite simple. The more if I developed the
:44:14. > :44:21.more danger if resents both to the public and firefighters alike. So if
:44:21. > :44:26.you delay by five minutes, how quickly will these people be able to
:44:27. > :44:30.get to a station in the summer? It is not acceptable. But the Devon and
:44:30. > :44:35.Somerset Fire authority argues that the cuts affect the changing nature
:44:35. > :44:45.of their work. They saved the number of emergency incidents has
:44:45. > :44:49.significantly dropped from 4000 in 2007, to 3000 in 2012. The reduced
:44:49. > :44:54.pressure is on fire services were highlighted in a recent review. In
:44:54. > :44:58.that report from the government it was said that fire deaths are at an
:44:58. > :45:06.all-time low. It is not about cutting a service but adjusting it
:45:06. > :45:12.to the new need of the public which is a lesser need in terms of
:45:12. > :45:18.critical response with fewer fire deaths and injuries. The fire
:45:18. > :45:26.authority agrees that their work is more about prevention and less about
:45:26. > :45:32.response. The future for me is education. We have got to be
:45:32. > :45:38.proactive rather than reactive to all situations. You have seen the
:45:38. > :45:45.statistics, it makes sense to be proactive instead of reactive.
:45:45. > :45:50.cuts made this week were about meeting tough spending targets set
:45:50. > :45:57.by the government. Even though fire risks have fallen some are still
:45:57. > :46:02.worried that the pressure to save money has led to a decision which
:46:02. > :46:09.could put lives at risk. And so a couple of different
:46:09. > :46:18.opinions. Is it in fact reasonable rationalisation of the service or
:46:18. > :46:23.plain dangerous? For Plymouth, you have a moral service in an urban
:46:24. > :46:30.environment and that does not make sense to us. No other comparable
:46:30. > :46:34.city are looking to do this. We also have something like one third of the
:46:34. > :46:39.major risks across the region, high-rise, nuclear activity,
:46:40. > :46:47.students, the level of risk is enormous. So you would not dispute
:46:47. > :46:55.the general point that incidents are coming down but saying that there
:46:55. > :47:02.are special circumstances in? Absolutely. And what the fire
:47:02. > :47:06.service are doing has been brilliant. But if all incidents at
:47:06. > :47:10.now responded to three minutes later, how many will turn into
:47:10. > :47:17.serious injury or fatality could make which previously did not
:47:17. > :47:25.because of the staffing levels. If you talk to firefighters they will
:47:25. > :47:31.say that a number of incidents do require two fire engines and require
:47:31. > :47:37.them to be on-site promptly. There was a significant incident requiring
:47:37. > :47:44.ladders and there are genuine concerns. The retained service, the
:47:44. > :47:52.firefighters largely do a fantastic job. I would not say that they would
:47:52. > :47:59.not do a good job. They would do the best job that they can. But the time
:47:59. > :48:03.of response is crucial in a fire. Julie, do you agree with the unions
:48:03. > :48:07.or the authority? I agree that we should look at it carefully. Money
:48:07. > :48:13.does have to be saved across all services. Throughout the whole
:48:13. > :48:18.south-west we do juggle with this issue around rural and urban areas.
:48:18. > :48:24.Retained firefighters in the South West are fantastic. The work that
:48:24. > :48:33.they do I think is second to none. Urban areas have unique problems. I
:48:33. > :48:39.would say, let us be flexible. you happen to be that minor
:48:39. > :48:44.statistic, your house is on fire, it is no consolation to you that
:48:44. > :48:51.generally it does make sense. agree with that and risk management
:48:51. > :48:57.is about weighing that up. Full risk assessment has happened here and it
:48:58. > :49:03.has been deemed that that risk is small enough to be not significant.
:49:03. > :49:09.Let us see how we go. Nobody could say that there could not be an
:49:09. > :49:16.incident in Plymouth where two fire engines were required in five
:49:16. > :49:21.minutes. But I think you can say with confidence that they have
:49:22. > :49:25.looked at those possibilities and that they are sure that the plan and
:49:25. > :49:29.they are putting in place will be adequate.
:49:29. > :49:31.Should the government - and the taxpayer - have a duty to provide
:49:31. > :49:35.residential sites for gypsies and travellers? Both this government and
:49:35. > :49:38.the last one have said yes. This week, though, Tory MPs were again
:49:38. > :49:41.insisting we shouldn't be giving them special treatment. But the
:49:41. > :49:49.authorities should be doing more to evict them from illegal camps. Scott
:49:49. > :49:51.Bingham reports. The debate over Gypsy and Traveller
:49:52. > :50:00.pictures has divided political parties, councils and communities.
:50:00. > :50:02.Under government guidance local authorities now have to identify a
:50:02. > :50:07.supply of deliverable fights sufficient for five years provision
:50:07. > :50:11.against locally set targets in their local plan. Cornwall Council
:50:11. > :50:19.identified this plot overlooking the sea as a potential site earlier this
:50:19. > :50:23.year. This lay-by in Cornwall is well known locally as an
:50:23. > :50:28.unauthorised site which until recently was occupied by a traveller
:50:28. > :50:34.known as the mushroom man due to the card wooden ornaments used to sell.
:50:34. > :50:38.Cornwall Council put forward a planning application to create
:50:38. > :50:43.permanent Gypsy and Traveller pictures here that there was
:50:43. > :50:48.widespread local opposition. The application has now been withdrawn
:50:48. > :50:52.and the mushroom man has moved on. Opposition to such land is often one
:50:52. > :50:58.of the major obstacles to local authorities being able to provide
:50:58. > :51:03.pictures. The local MP is firmly behind the object to this. To put in
:51:03. > :51:08.a planning application after somebody had just decided to park by
:51:08. > :51:13.the side of the road in a beauty spot was totally unacceptable. It
:51:13. > :51:16.sent out the message that anybody who was prepared to flout the
:51:17. > :51:22.planning laws would get away with it. It just was not right. She's not
:51:22. > :51:27.alone her view. I did not think it is the responsibility of the
:51:27. > :51:32.government to provide site for travellers. In most cases they are
:51:32. > :51:38.people who are not vulnerable but have plenty of resources. I think we
:51:38. > :51:43.should be better in forcing the law and removing them when they
:51:43. > :51:48.gate-crash online. Some want to go even further along that hard line.
:51:48. > :51:54.wanted to call my bill Gypsies and Travellers, the same planning rules
:51:55. > :51:58.as everyone else. This week Philip Holub own called for the removal of
:51:58. > :52:04.any special provision for Gypsies and Travellers from national
:52:04. > :52:10.planning regulations. I do not see why one category of person should be
:52:10. > :52:14.treated differently from anyone else. But Gypsy and Traveller groups
:52:14. > :52:19.say when local authorities are already struggling to provide enough
:52:19. > :52:26.pitches, such a move would simply force more people onto illegal
:52:26. > :52:33.encampments. I think local authorities will us the chance to
:52:33. > :52:39.have a home and have access to health and education and for a
:52:39. > :52:45.permanent base. Cornwall Council forecast it will need 237
:52:45. > :52:50.residential pitches by 2020 and has already approved 106 five since
:52:50. > :52:55.2006. It says it needs assessment is currently being updated for the next
:52:55. > :53:00.stage of the local plan. Well we're joined by the man whose
:53:00. > :53:10.job it is to provide Gypsy and Traveller sites in Cornwall.
:53:10. > :53:10.
:53:10. > :53:15.Councillor Jeff Brown. Where are you in your general need to satisfy
:53:15. > :53:22.this? Well the people who have been resident in one area have actually
:53:22. > :53:26.integrated well in one area and we have lessons to drool from that. We
:53:26. > :53:32.need to engage with local communities much earlier. But we
:53:32. > :53:41.need to provide, at the moment the target is 159 residential pitches.
:53:41. > :53:46.We have achieved 106. There are two problems. One is that we need to
:53:46. > :53:50.deliver pitches in places which Gypsies and Travellers will use and
:53:50. > :53:54.secondly they need to be accepted into the local community. It is
:53:54. > :53:59.incredibly difficult. One councillor said it was the most difficult job
:53:59. > :54:03.they had ever had to do as a councillor. It is usually
:54:03. > :54:09.challenging. It goes back to the Housing act of 2004, the obligation
:54:10. > :54:18.to provide these pictures. And now there is a bill coming through
:54:18. > :54:23.Parliament effectively saying, take the pain rushes away. Whether you
:54:23. > :54:26.agree or disagree with the latest build, the fact is that those
:54:26. > :54:30.Gypsies and Travellers will still be there and we need to provide for
:54:30. > :54:38.them, for the welfare of the children and families and their
:54:38. > :54:46.education as well. Julie, do you agree that really we do not as a
:54:46. > :54:49.society open Gypsies and Travellers this service? I get confused by
:54:49. > :54:53.travellers who talk about a permanent residents. If you are
:54:53. > :55:01.asking to be provided with a permanent site then you're not
:55:01. > :55:08.traveller. It is a cultural thing. I think I would say that transit
:55:08. > :55:12.fights are one thing. There is still a community out there that moves
:55:13. > :55:16.around, whether you like it or not, that exists. I live in
:55:16. > :55:21.Gloucestershire where we have a gypsy fair every year and we see a
:55:21. > :55:26.huge number of people travelling to that and the community has had to
:55:26. > :55:31.adjust to that and has done it well. I think Ford transit there is an
:55:31. > :55:36.issue. Councils to need to keep that in mind. But permanent residence for
:55:36. > :55:41.people who say they are Travellers, it is just a logical to me. If you
:55:41. > :55:47.want to stay in one place and integrate into a community, then
:55:47. > :55:51.that is a totally different thing. You are the expert on this, what do
:55:51. > :55:56.travellers want in these circumstances could make many of
:55:56. > :55:59.them do want a permanent base. of them travel in the summer months.
:55:59. > :56:04.Historically they travelled for work. In Cornwall it is one of our
:56:04. > :56:11.largest ethnic minority groups and it is important to realise that we
:56:11. > :56:15.have to provide for these people and it is better if we can provide for
:56:15. > :56:24.them in local authority sites so we can put in sanitation, freshwater,
:56:24. > :56:30.access to a network of support, medical and welfare support. Cheryl
:56:30. > :56:35.Murray was talking that she knew of Romany Gypsies in her constituency
:56:35. > :56:40.who had applied for planning a mission for a piece of land in the
:56:40. > :56:44.normal way. And we get a huge number of applications that do come through
:56:44. > :56:50.like that. The majority of our pitches are actually private
:56:50. > :56:54.applications. If that's not a better way forward with Mac even with the
:56:54. > :57:01.private applications, that is not delivering the number that we need
:57:01. > :57:05.to deliver. I think it is safe to say that you do not take the view
:57:05. > :57:11.that the obligation should be lifted from local authorities? No, indeed.
:57:11. > :57:18.I think authorities are being enlightened and people do need
:57:18. > :57:21.permanent sites. These are people who used to travel to pick hops in
:57:21. > :57:27.Kent or do agricultural work in Lincolnshire and then return back to
:57:27. > :57:33.a base where their children often were educated. So permanent is
:57:33. > :57:38.perhaps not quite -- the right word. But they do not do that any more.
:57:38. > :57:45.Most families still do. I do not agree with you about the need for
:57:46. > :57:55.transit. Plymouth have just got the go-ahead for a transit site. We have
:57:56. > :57:57.
:57:57. > :58:03.one persistent problem where it makes local people's lives hell. The
:58:03. > :58:09.council are operating with one arm tied behind their back. It is
:58:10. > :58:16.important that there is a duty to have transit sites. That will make
:58:16. > :58:23.it easier to enforce as well. think the Labour government should
:58:23. > :58:29.have taken a firmer line? It is years since you eventually restored
:58:29. > :58:34.this requirement and it has crept along at a smell's pace. It has been
:58:35. > :58:41.down to local councils to push it through and some have been better
:58:41. > :58:47.than others. Cornwall clearly have made some very good efforts and
:58:47. > :58:52.Plymouth have certainly tried. Whilst at the same time listening to
:58:52. > :58:59.the concerns of people. Most people's experience of settling is
:58:59. > :59:06.not a good one. A lot of Gypsies used to travel for agricultural work
:59:06. > :59:09.in the summer. Much of that is now done by Eastern Europeans and Now
:59:09. > :59:11.our regular round-up of the political week in 60 seconds.
:59:11. > :59:14.The Gypsies are now often travelling through Europe. At one site I spoke
:59:14. > :59:24.to one 12-year-old who was fluent in three languages. We will have to
:59:24. > :59:29.
:59:29. > :59:34.leave it there. I am pleased that the court listened
:59:34. > :59:38.to the challenge about fishing quotas. The Cornwall Council of the
:59:39. > :59:43.sparks fury with comments about disabled children resigns. An
:59:43. > :59:49.official report concluded that the things he had said were outrageous
:59:49. > :59:53.and grossly insensitive. In terms of reputation it has not been good for
:59:53. > :59:58.Cornwall. I regret that the comments were ever made in the first race and
:59:58. > :00:04.that is the problem we have to address. It deal has been signed to
:00:04. > :00:10.bring high-speed broadband to 97% of people in Dorset. It builds to
:00:10. > :00:18.impose licensing on street traders was introduced. And there is also a
:00:18. > :00:25.campaign to scrap business rates for public lavatories.
:00:25. > :00:29.Julie, you know a lot about fishing. Some suggested that moving the quota
:00:29. > :00:33.to smaller boat is not quite what it seems because some of the smaller
:00:33. > :00:38.boats can be powerful. Nowadays they have good engines on some of them
:00:38. > :00:46.but in the end they are small boats and there is a limit on how far out
:00:46. > :00:52.to see they can go. They are limited by their seagoing worthiness. I
:00:52. > :00:57.think the real issue in October and November, the Minister has committed
:00:57. > :01:04.to publishing full quotas for the UK. Up until now that has been very
:01:04. > :01:08.murky. Then we can get a good debate going. Let me just ask, this
:01:08. > :01:14.recommendation that MPs should get bigger salaries? Well an independent
:01:14. > :01:20.body have looked into it. And now nobody seems to like the outcome. I
:01:20. > :01:26.would urge Mike constituents to contribute to the consultation