:00:38. > :00:44.Morning, folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. And in-out EU
:00:44. > :00:48.referendum before the general election? We talk to the Tory rebel
:00:48. > :00:53.demanding one next year, that is our top story. As government ministers
:00:53. > :00:54.prepare to decide how the press should be regulated, what will be
:00:54. > :00:58.the impact of this week's row should be regulated, what will be
:00:58. > :01:05.between the Daily Mail and Ed Miliband?
:01:05. > :01:12.You are talking about the colour of peoples faces?!
:01:12. > :01:15.In the South West: Concern government help for home
:01:15. > :01:17.buyers could push up house prices. And councils are told to stop using
:01:17. > :02:01.parking charges as a money spinner. He will try to force a vote in the
:02:01. > :02:08.October. Home Secretary Theresa He will try to force a vote in the
:02:08. > :02:17.was asked about his plans on the BBC earlier this morning. I think he has
:02:17. > :02:20.got it wrong, I think what we need to do is to negotiate the settlement
:02:20. > :02:26.with the European Union and then put that to the people me to decide
:02:26. > :02:34.whether to be in or out. Is this a flea bite or a real threat? I think
:02:34. > :02:39.the next election, a Conservative Party that will be offering people
:02:39. > :02:43.that renegotiation, a new settlement with Europe, looking to the future
:02:43. > :02:48.and putting that to the British people in and in or out referendum.
:02:48. > :02:51.And what the amendment possibly could do, as James Wharton, who
:02:51. > :02:53.And what the amendment possibly putting the Referendum Bill through
:02:53. > :03:00.Parliament has said, is it could jeopardise that bill. Adam Afriyie
:03:00. > :03:04.joins us now from Millbank studio. Good morning. If the referendum
:03:04. > :03:08.would be held next October, it would have to be an in-out question based
:03:08. > :03:15.the status quo? There wouldn't be time for a full renegotiation. I
:03:15. > :03:20.disagree. By having a referendum in 2014, it gives us 12 months to
:03:20. > :03:23.renegotiate, but it kick-started negotiations, because the European
:03:23. > :03:24.Union, if they wish us to remain members, would need to accommodate
:03:24. > :03:27.and make changes so that they would members, would need to accommodate
:03:27. > :03:32.and make changes so that they would persuade the British public to stay,
:03:32. > :03:37.strengthens the Prime Minister's hand, and 12 months is ample time
:03:37. > :03:40.for that kind of negotiation. You might think that, but Germany has
:03:40. > :03:44.not even got a government at the moment, why should they meet our
:03:44. > :03:46.timetable? This is going to be incredibly, located renegotiation. I
:03:46. > :03:53.think, basically, 80% of people incredibly, located renegotiation. I
:03:53. > :03:57.a referendum. More than 50% what a election. British businesses need
:03:57. > :03:59.certainty, and we could carry on taking a scan down the road for
:03:59. > :04:02.ever, but I have struggled with taking a scan down the road for
:04:02. > :04:07.conscience over this one. I do not want to cause trouble, but it is
:04:07. > :04:09.essential that Parliament and MPs have the opportunity to search their
:04:09. > :04:13.souls and give people a referendum this side of the election. That
:04:13. > :04:18.would also bring certainty and clarity for the future, and like I
:04:18. > :04:20.said, it strengthens the Prime Minister's hand if it is successful.
:04:20. > :04:24.You right in the Mail on Sunday Minister's hand if it is successful.
:04:24. > :04:28.the people are not convinced there even will be a referendum, so they
:04:28. > :04:32.don't trust David Cameron? I think the headline was not the headline I
:04:32. > :04:39.wrote for that piece. What I am You are saying that the British
:04:39. > :04:42.people are not convinced. Look, there are too many uncertainties
:04:42. > :04:47.here - they may not be convinced the Conservatives will win the election,
:04:47. > :04:48.I hope we will, they may not be convinced the renegotiation will be
:04:48. > :04:53.good enough, that there will be convinced the renegotiation will be
:04:53. > :04:59.referendum. Do you trust David That is why we need to bring the
:04:59. > :05:02.referendum forward, there is time to negotiate, and we tidy up the issue
:05:03. > :05:07.that has been hanging around for too long. Do you trust David Cameron to
:05:07. > :05:17.deliver a referendum in 2017? I Minister, and of course I trust
:05:17. > :05:17.deliver a referendum in 2017? I referendum? There as only variables
:05:17. > :05:22.in between. What I am doing with referendum? There as only variables
:05:22. > :05:24.this amendment, is to try to be referendum? There as only variables
:05:24. > :05:25.is that Parliament and every MP referendum? There as only variables
:05:25. > :05:29.the opportunity decide whether they want to be sure of a referendum
:05:29. > :05:33.within this parliament, or maybe leave it to the vagaries of what may
:05:33. > :05:38.within this parliament, or maybe happen in 2015. Supposing you got
:05:38. > :05:39.your way, how would you vote? Like Michael Gove, I would vote for us to
:05:39. > :05:43.leave as of today, but there will be Michael Gove, I would vote for us to
:05:43. > :05:44.an enormous amount of pressure on European Union leaders to come
:05:44. > :05:49.forward with proposals. If they European Union leaders to come
:05:49. > :05:50.to say, the mandate is not ever closer political union, it is ever
:05:50. > :05:56.closer trading harmony, giving us closer trading harmony, giving us
:05:56. > :05:57.more border control and control closer trading harmony, giving us
:05:57. > :06:00.our legal system, I might change my mind. But this is what needs to
:06:00. > :06:05.happen - if we have a referendum in happen - if we have a referendum in
:06:05. > :06:08.negotiations to be kick-started happen - if we have a referendum in
:06:08. > :06:12.people to argue in or out, and the end result is a stronger Prime
:06:12. > :06:15.Minister. Is it true that you have end result is a stronger Prime
:06:15. > :06:20.Minister. Is it true that you have got about 80 MPs supporting this? It
:06:20. > :06:24.certain, and I think we will see it on hold over the next three or five
:06:25. > :06:30.weeks. He will have to ask each individual MP. I am asking you,
:06:30. > :06:36.is your motion! There will be other motions coming forward, and I know
:06:36. > :06:40.cross-party, for people who want the British public to have a say in
:06:40. > :06:45.2014. You know it is not going to get through, the whips will stop
:06:46. > :06:49.this from happening. One of the successes, apparently, of your
:06:49. > :06:52.party's Manchester conference was that you were not divided over
:06:52. > :06:56.Europe anymore, the Europe issue was settled. Here you are bringing it
:06:56. > :07:00.Europe anymore, the Europe issue was back to life and pouring petrol
:07:00. > :07:03.Europe anymore, the Europe issue was unlicensed troublemaker of the
:07:03. > :07:06.Tories? The only struggle I have had is not a fight with my party but
:07:06. > :07:07.Tories? The only struggle I have had with my conscience as to whether or
:07:07. > :07:10.not I would give Parliament and with my conscience as to whether or
:07:10. > :07:16.British people an opportunity to have a say in 2014. I wrestled with
:07:16. > :07:19.it, and I decided I wanted people to have that opportunity. It is for
:07:19. > :07:22.each individual MP to search their soul, speak to constituents and
:07:22. > :07:28.decide whether they want that. You decided it would get you in the
:07:28. > :07:30.headlines again. Oh, you are so cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition
:07:30. > :07:38.publicity seeker. All I seek is cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition
:07:38. > :07:39.would not be able to sleep at night if I did not bring forward this
:07:40. > :07:44.opportunity for Britain to have if I did not bring forward this
:07:44. > :07:49.say. We have left it far too long. Nobody under the age of 56 has had a
:07:49. > :07:53.say. Thanks for joining us, good luck with this continuing struggle
:07:53. > :07:56.with your conscience! I will move the seat around and addressed the
:07:56. > :07:57.panel, what do you make of it? The party managers must be furious with
:07:57. > :08:02.him. I think what this confirms party managers must be furious with
:08:02. > :08:10.that David Cameron is incredibly lucky in his enemies. His most
:08:10. > :08:14.prolific critics, Nadine Dorries, Peter Bone, Adam Afriyie, even if
:08:14. > :08:18.you are very anti-Cameron, you will not think, man, if only they were in
:08:18. > :08:24.charge of the party! I think the party managers are not too alarmed.
:08:24. > :08:29.They do not take him seriously? No, is not as if the James Wharton bill
:08:29. > :08:33.is a work of genius, it is riddled with flaws, anomalies and loopholes.
:08:33. > :08:37.It purports to guarantee that a referendum will take place in the
:08:37. > :08:40.next Parliament. My understanding of theoretically impossible and that
:08:40. > :08:43.all the future government would theoretically impossible and that
:08:43. > :08:45.is cancel out that bill with another bill. He does have a point that
:08:45. > :08:51.Cameron's plan for a referendum bill. He does have a point that
:08:51. > :09:00.nothing like as likely to happen... dangerous. The problem for David
:09:00. > :09:04.Cameron is twofold. One, if Ed Miliband says he's going to support
:09:04. > :09:07.Adam Afriyie, it will go through. Unlikely that Ed Miliband would
:09:07. > :09:11.Adam Afriyie, it will go through. that, but what he might do is say to
:09:11. > :09:16.his MPs, ignore this. It may well be significant number of Labour MPs do
:09:16. > :09:22.not turn up, and then what you have Conservative backbenchers, and in
:09:22. > :09:28.that war you might well find that through, and then the Prime Minister
:09:28. > :09:36.has real trouble, because Adam Afriyie says, the Prime Minister
:09:36. > :09:39.membership, up what basis and with which mandate? He would not be able
:09:39. > :09:41.to get agreement with Nick Clegg or Ed Miliband, so you would be looking
:09:41. > :09:49.think he is a Labour mole, that Ed Miliband, so you would be looking
:09:49. > :09:50.what I have come to, a Daily Mail style conspiracy theory, it could
:09:50. > :09:55.not be more perfect. The prospect of style conspiracy theory, it could
:09:55. > :10:02.a referendum on the EU at the same time as Scottish independence is
:10:02. > :10:09.has told us he could not sleep at conscience. We could send him some
:10:09. > :10:11.pills, I suppose. We know he's going to sack all those lieutenants were
:10:11. > :10:16.going around and saying he is the great future and the next leader of
:10:16. > :10:22.the Conservative Party. He denied doing that! He would be amazed to
:10:22. > :10:27.hear you say that, this is a crisis conversations in corridors, quite an
:10:27. > :10:32.operation to get letters into Graham Brady, he said to have letters,
:10:32. > :10:34.operation to get letters into Graham 46, but at the moment this campaign
:10:35. > :10:44.is being run by Lieutenant of Adam They are disaffected and not happy
:10:44. > :10:49.under David Cameron's leadership. There is a whole army of them! I am
:10:49. > :10:52.pleased he has outmanoeuvred the awkward squad, and now James Wharton
:10:52. > :10:58.is saying, you're going to kill awkward squad, and now James Wharton
:10:58. > :11:04.bill. I do not think they are very competence lieutenants. The main
:11:04. > :11:08.episode is it will unify a large Conservative Party behind David
:11:08. > :11:14.Cameron. On what they hope is a settled position. We still hope
:11:14. > :11:16.Cameron. On what they hope is a be talking to John Prescott, who is
:11:16. > :11:21.in hole, if you see him, pointing in the direction of the BBC studios! Do
:11:21. > :11:26.you want to buy a house? Can you afford the mortgage repayments but
:11:26. > :11:28.not the 20% or 30% deposit the mortgage provider is demanding from
:11:28. > :11:32.you? The Government says it has mortgage provider is demanding from
:11:32. > :11:38.scheme designed for you which is in launching next week, help to buy,
:11:38. > :11:43.re-emergence of 95% mortgages, remember them?! But is the policy
:11:43. > :11:45.really good for home-buyers or the British economy? Here is Giles.
:11:45. > :11:50.Never mind who lives in a house British economy? Here is Giles.
:11:50. > :11:53.this, who can afford to buy a house these days? The Government would
:11:53. > :11:54.this, who can afford to buy a house like many more people to be able to
:11:54. > :11:57.without putting down a crippling like many more people to be able to
:11:57. > :11:59.without putting down a crippling amount of money as a deposit, and in
:11:59. > :12:04.the spirit of rights to buy, the government has launched help to
:12:04. > :12:04.the spirit of rights to buy, the confusingly it is the name for two
:12:04. > :12:25.been running since April. Help to government are bringing it in early.
:12:25. > :12:29.Let's get in on the inside and take a good look around at what this
:12:29. > :12:34.scheme actually has to offer. And why the Government thinks it really
:12:34. > :12:40.works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity loan scheme. The idea, nice, is
:12:40. > :12:41.works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity it was for new build only, up to a
:12:41. > :12:47.value of £600,000. But it is Help to value of £600,000. But it is Help to
:12:47. > :12:51.Buy 2 that everyone is looking into right now. It is for any property up
:12:51. > :12:58.to a value, again, of £600,000. right now. It is for any property up
:12:58. > :13:00.time the Government is guaranteeing that it will take on the first
:13:00. > :13:04.losses should the home owner in that it will take on the first
:13:04. > :13:08.future failed to make their mortgage payments. Don't worry about that, if
:13:08. > :13:13.you are a buyer, you are going to be concerned about coming up with the
:13:13. > :13:18.5% deposit and 95% mortgages will be available again in participating
:13:18. > :13:27.banks and building societies. And a housing prime mover. You cannot
:13:27. > :13:31.get training to 5% mortgage anymore, 90% even, so there are couples in
:13:31. > :13:33.our country who have good jobs, decent incomes, they could afford
:13:33. > :13:42.the mortgage payments but they failure in our banking market. So
:13:42. > :13:45.Jonathan, but I guess for you this is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a
:13:45. > :13:51.main impact of this scheme will is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a
:13:51. > :13:55.to push up prices, who does that benefit? Mostly rich and all the
:13:55. > :14:00.people who own their houses. Plus the banks, of course, because it is
:14:00. > :14:04.a subsidy for them. Who loses? People who want to buy a house in
:14:04. > :14:09.the future. Moreover, it is a bit odd that the Government says it
:14:09. > :14:11.the future. Moreover, it is a bit not OK to borrow to finance schools
:14:11. > :14:23.or roads, but it is fine for the effectively, in order to guarantee
:14:23. > :14:27.housing market. 2.3 million? I do not think Help to Buy covers that.
:14:27. > :14:34.But enter a would-be buyer, will they now be seeing a plethora of
:14:34. > :14:41.help to buy mortgages? In a word, no. David Cameron has brought the
:14:41. > :14:45.months, and banks were not ready at that stage. Two banks have committed
:14:45. > :14:50.to fund the scheme, the Lloyds group and the RBS group, so lenders like
:14:50. > :14:53.Halifax, RBS and NatWest. They will be doing the scheme, but even once
:14:53. > :15:01.the scheme is up and running you are probably find 95% mortgages on the
:15:01. > :15:10.high street because of the guarantee the government is offering. People
:15:10. > :15:14.might say this is how we got into a mess in the first place. Why would
:15:14. > :15:20.the government want to make those products available then now? It
:15:20. > :15:23.the government want to make those more what investment banks were
:15:23. > :15:28.doing in the background that caused performed extremely well through the
:15:28. > :15:35.depths of the downturn. Is this performed extremely well through the
:15:35. > :15:37.game changer? Yes, I have done my best to save over the last few years
:15:37. > :15:42.but this has enabled me to make best to save over the last few years
:15:42. > :15:48.first purchase. How frustrating best to save over the last few years
:15:48. > :15:53.it just renting? Very frustrating, you are throwing away money hand
:15:53. > :16:01.over fist, and now I can take that enthusiasm raises a question back at
:16:01. > :16:07.the flat. If you are looking for a 95% mortgage, you don't really care
:16:07. > :16:14.economy, you are thinking, great, I can buy a house. Yes, if I was a
:16:15. > :16:21.house buyer or a bank, I would be pleased, but it will do longer term
:16:21. > :16:25.economic damage. The tricky steps the government are trying to pull
:16:25. > :16:32.off is that home-buyers might be so grateful for the opportunity to
:16:32. > :16:32.off is that home-buyers might be so their own homes that they reward the
:16:32. > :16:35.Government with the vote, while their own homes that they reward the
:16:35. > :16:52.the same time the Government tries to sidestep consequences that such a
:16:52. > :16:57.Now Conservative MP Margot James, and Allister Heath, editor of City
:16:57. > :17:04.It is said by the critics that this scheme will cause a housing bubble.
:17:04. > :17:18.Where is the evidence? House prices are more varied. Housing not just in
:17:18. > :17:22.London remains overvalued and the problem with this scheme is that it
:17:22. > :17:31.will pump up house prices, it will therefore houses will become even
:17:31. > :17:35.more overvalued. That is a dangerous territory, last time it ended in
:17:35. > :17:42.tears, and now the Government is taking on the risk of that policy.
:17:42. > :17:44.What do you say to that? We have a real problem, it takes people on
:17:44. > :17:55.average until they are 38 years real problem, it takes people on
:17:55. > :17:59.property. The problem is not that they cannot afford it, but they
:17:59. > :18:03.cannot afford the deposit. We have got to do something to allow people
:18:04. > :18:08.to get their feet on the property ladder and I don't agree it will
:18:08. > :18:23.cause a boom in house prices. It would if we were not building any
:18:23. > :18:34.have had a record this year, 12 months to right now, the record
:18:34. > :18:34.have had a record this year, 12 the last ten years. These are not
:18:34. > :18:41.the statistics I have seen, but the last ten years. These are not
:18:41. > :18:46.new supply is coming up. It is starting to creep up. We don't see
:18:46. > :18:51.enough house building, need to build more houses and that is a solution
:18:51. > :18:54.to this problem. You are right, people cannot afford to buy homes
:18:54. > :19:00.and the reason is there are not enough good quality homes in the
:19:00. > :19:04.deposits are so high is because secondly the Government has passed
:19:04. > :19:08.laws to make the banking system secondly the Government has passed
:19:08. > :19:16.prudent, telling them to put more wrong. Now suddenly the Government
:19:16. > :19:20.is not happy with the outcome of its own rules and is trying to create
:19:20. > :19:26.these subsidies to circumvent the rules it has put in place. It is not
:19:26. > :19:32.a subsidy. Don't forget banks have to pay a charge in order to take
:19:32. > :19:39.part in this loan scheme and that the... You are guaranteeing the
:19:39. > :19:42.money. Yes, but the fear is worked out on a commercial basis. The
:19:42. > :19:49.taxpayer is protected. Why? You out on a commercial basis. The
:19:49. > :19:55.guaranteeing £12 billion worth of mortgages per year. Yes but the
:19:55. > :20:00.change in the whole mortgage basis has been made a few years ago in
:20:00. > :20:03.response of the crash. They made the distressed test on people applying
:20:03. > :20:13.for mortgages much higher and you twice... So it will not be like
:20:13. > :20:20.these self certification mortgages handed out in America that caused
:20:20. > :20:24.the sub-prime crisis? Pigment bit like that but the banks are rightly
:20:24. > :20:29.asking for bigger deposits, they know there is a big chance house
:20:29. > :20:33.prices could fall if interest rates eventually, so they are demanding
:20:33. > :20:39.bigger deposits. The Government eventually, so they are demanding
:20:39. > :20:41.circumventing this is being passed eventually, so they are demanding
:20:41. > :20:46.on to the taxpayers which is why it is a dangerous policy. Instead they
:20:46. > :20:55.should be massively accelerating Planning permission is much easier
:20:55. > :20:58.to get now, we have seen a 49% increase in planning permission
:20:58. > :20:59.to get now, we have seen a 49% a new building over the last year, a
:20:59. > :21:05.huge increase. In the figures I a new building over the last year, a
:21:05. > :21:09.recently, they showed new start a new building over the last year, a
:21:09. > :21:12.the 12 months to the autumn were only about 110,000 which is the
:21:12. > :21:18.figure you inherited, which was only about 110,000 which is the
:21:18. > :21:24.an all-time low in 2010. New house built in the last quarter are third
:21:24. > :21:29.up on the time last year. You have relaxation of planning laws and
:21:29. > :21:31.up on the time last year. You have other policies the Government put
:21:31. > :21:36.into effect last year to take effect and it is coming through now. I
:21:36. > :21:42.agree, if we weren't building more houses, if the construction sector
:21:42. > :21:49.advantage of the increased demand, there would be a risk. David Cameron
:21:49. > :21:57.says you are snob and it is only snobs who dislike Help To Buy. They
:21:57. > :22:04.don't have the bank of mum and dad, people like that will finally get on
:22:04. > :22:07.the housing ladder. That is complete nonsense. We need a sustainable
:22:07. > :22:12.housing market where there is a large amount of construction, like
:22:12. > :22:19.in the 1930s for example, where large numbers of proper family homes
:22:19. > :22:25.were being built for people. House prices were pushed down and people
:22:25. > :22:30.could afford houses. You are now encouraging people to take out a 95%
:22:30. > :22:39.mortgage, I thought that was a bad idea, so supposing interest rates go
:22:39. > :22:44.struggle, and supposing house prices fall by more than 5%, I am now faced
:22:44. > :22:49.with negative equity and soaring interest rates that I cannot afford.
:22:49. > :22:55.95% mortgage, if you can afford interest rates that I cannot afford.
:22:55. > :23:01.repayments, you will be fine. What happens when interest rates rise?
:23:01. > :23:03.They have got to rise a lot before you get into trouble. People are
:23:03. > :23:09.already affording rent which is you get into trouble. People are
:23:09. > :23:16.lot higher than mortgage payments. You will not be able to get into
:23:16. > :23:20.this scheme unless you can afford repayments double what they are
:23:20. > :23:25.this scheme unless you can afford the moment. The Conservatives should
:23:25. > :23:30.limelight last week but there was an unwelcome intruder in the shape
:23:31. > :23:33.limelight last week but there was an row between Ed Miliband and the
:23:33. > :23:41.Daily Mail. Just over a week ago the claiming that Ed Miliband's Father
:23:41. > :23:48.Ralph hated Britain. They showed a picture of his father's gravestone
:23:48. > :23:52.with the caption, grave socialist. They then removed the photo and
:23:53. > :23:57.with the caption, grave socialist. Ed Miliband the right to reply on
:23:57. > :24:01.printed an editorial alongside it saying they stood by every word
:24:01. > :24:06.printed an editorial alongside it published an fair headline. It also
:24:06. > :24:11.reporter had gate-crashed a private memorial service for Ed Miliband's
:24:11. > :24:15.uncle in a London hospital, for which the paper has now apologised,
:24:15. > :24:24.but Ed Miliband has called on the hard look at the way his papers
:24:24. > :24:31.but Ed Miliband has called on the run. This comes a week before a
:24:31. > :24:31.but Ed Miliband has called on the Joining us now from Hull, John
:24:31. > :24:43.Prescott. Does this row between Joining us now from Hull, John
:24:43. > :24:50.reinforce the case for tough, new certainly influences the opinion
:24:50. > :24:53.about that but that is more of Paul Dacre's doing. Ed Miliband rang
:24:53. > :24:54.about that but that is more of Paul while I was in Strasbourg making
:24:54. > :24:59.sure my complaints were nothing while I was in Strasbourg making
:24:59. > :25:05.do with press regulation and he while I was in Strasbourg making
:25:05. > :25:07.right. This argument is not about politicians and media people, it is
:25:07. > :25:16.about ordinary people that love politicians and media people, it is
:25:16. > :25:21.and dealt with. All of these cases affected individual people and they
:25:21. > :25:27.are the ones that need to have justice in this matter. Next week we
:25:27. > :25:33.will be hearing whether the Privy Council will be reporting on the
:25:33. > :25:49.proposal to replace it. Are you agreeing then that what the mail did
:25:49. > :26:02.with its Miliband article was a matter of judgement? Yes, and the
:26:02. > :26:05.with its Miliband article was a conclusion that the relationship
:26:05. > :26:13.between the press, the police and politicians should be governed,
:26:14. > :26:19.between the press, the police and proposal given by half the press
:26:19. > :26:23.industry that that does not meet the Leveson requirement and I suspect
:26:23. > :26:26.the Privy Council this week will have to reject that, and I hope
:26:26. > :26:28.the Privy Council this week will will because it is not consistent
:26:28. > :26:34.with the Leveson report which the Prime Minister said he supported.
:26:34. > :26:41.You attacked the mail in your column today but your paper went through
:26:41. > :26:45.the Cameron family bins to see what nappies they used for their disabled
:26:45. > :26:47.son. Isn't that far more offensive than what the Daily Mail wrote about
:26:47. > :26:56.Ralph Miliband? It probably is, than what the Daily Mail wrote about
:26:56. > :27:09.couldn't defend that. I have had Haven't we all? Yes, but we are
:27:09. > :27:23.editors who acts unilaterally. Paul Dacre is running this thing in the
:27:23. > :27:33.judgement and some accountability which the press have accepted the
:27:33. > :27:37.old PCC is no good. They are playing for time because if they reject
:27:37. > :27:40.old PCC is no good. They are playing this week there is 12 months until
:27:40. > :27:44.you can consider a parliamentary alternative and then you are near
:27:44. > :27:48.the election and you begin to bully the leaders. That is how they have
:27:48. > :27:58.been successful in putting off recommendations. Maybe my memory is
:27:58. > :28:04.fading but did you or anybody else in the Labour Party object to the
:28:04. > :28:09.Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't know about it. I would just say
:28:09. > :28:11.Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't is wrong if that is what they did.
:28:11. > :28:17.As you said, you have the same position when they go through your
:28:17. > :28:22.rubbish bins, I think that is wrong. We have Leveson set up by the Prime
:28:22. > :28:25.Minister to look at the cultures and practices and the unilateral action
:28:25. > :28:39.of editors and he came forward with Parliament under a compromise of the
:28:39. > :28:44.frankly, but we have agreed to go frankly, but we have agreed to go
:28:44. > :28:51.Government set up in charge at the same time rushed through the press
:28:51. > :28:59.box? It looks like a fix, like they are using the Royal Charter as a
:28:59. > :29:02.means of delaying everything. They have now said they are going to
:29:02. > :29:08.introduce their own independent charter. This industry does not
:29:08. > :29:09.introduce their own independent accountability. We know Alistair
:29:09. > :29:14.Campbell and Ed Miliband's officers accountability. We know Alistair
:29:14. > :29:24.are working closely on the assault of the Mail. What is the endgame for
:29:24. > :29:36.this? Is it the head of Paul Dacre? He is not an acceptable character to
:29:36. > :29:41.me, and he needs to be taking account. When Ed Miliband rang me it
:29:41. > :29:44.was to say, don't let these arguments drift into press
:29:44. > :29:58.regulation, he wanted the argument of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband
:29:58. > :30:00.after Paul Dacre's head? No, he can stay there. It is like with Murdoch,
:30:00. > :30:04.after Paul Dacre's head? No, he can we were not attacking him but what
:30:04. > :30:08.is papers were doing. To that extent, what they are doing about
:30:08. > :30:12.ordinary people, not just big politicians who can look after
:30:12. > :30:16.themselves. We know, with the bad cases he had to deal with, they
:30:16. > :30:20.might get libel action, which the press say, but they pretty well
:30:20. > :30:26.destroyed their lives. That is about judgment. If you say, as Paul Dacre
:30:26. > :30:31.got good judgment? I would say no, he will have to live with it.
:30:31. > :30:36.Thank you for joining us, he did not even have to go to the BBC studios,
:30:36. > :30:41.we sent a truck there for him. What is the endgame in this? Whether the
:30:41. > :30:45.Labour Party is trying to make this an issue press regulation are not,
:30:45. > :30:49.this is where it is going. We have the criminal trial involving Andy
:30:49. > :30:51.Coulson coming up, the Privy Council discussing press radiation before
:30:51. > :30:55.the end of the year, and the question is, what is political
:30:55. > :30:59.impact? My hunch, it is an unfashionable view, is that the
:30:59. > :31:02.total at yum elated political impact of the Leveson story over the past
:31:02. > :31:09.several years, hacking and everything, is close to zero,
:31:09. > :31:13.because most voters do not care, and those who do care believe that all
:31:13. > :31:18.parties are roughly complicit in being too close to editors and
:31:18. > :31:24.proprietors. You said that Adam Afriyie was a Labour mould, with a
:31:24. > :31:28.smile. Is the Daily Mail also a Labour mole? This has been a dream
:31:28. > :31:34.for Ed Miliband, I took on Murdoch, I am taking on the energy companies
:31:34. > :31:38.and now the evil Daily Mail! I think... I should say I used to work
:31:38. > :31:42.for the Daily Mail, but when they printed the right of reply, they
:31:42. > :31:44.surrounded it with a big two fingers up at Ed. If they had not done
:31:44. > :31:49.surrounded it with a big two fingers that, they would not be in this
:31:49. > :31:53.position. The poll in the Sunday Times this morning shows 72% think
:31:53. > :31:58.the Daily Mail was wrong and backed Mr Miliband's demand for an apology.
:31:58. > :32:02.If you come to define and your dad, people are naturally going to do
:32:02. > :32:05.this, but it took all the coverage away from the Tory conference, the
:32:05. > :32:12.media loves covering itself, here we are doing it again, this has been a
:32:12. > :32:15.dream for Mr Miliband. The political significance of this is that David
:32:15. > :32:18.Cameron said in the House of Commons that he wanted to try to find some
:32:18. > :32:24.common ground between the three party Royal Charter and the
:32:24. > :32:28.so-called press industry version. What the Daily Mail has done is
:32:28. > :32:31.ensured that the Prime Minister is not going to be able to do that.
:32:31. > :32:35.What is going to happen this week is that the press Royal Charter has to
:32:35. > :32:42.be considered first, and that will probably be rejected. The Privy
:32:42. > :32:47.Council will reject it. Then the three party Royal Charter will come
:32:47. > :32:51.up, but meanwhile the press will set up their own regulatory body because
:32:51. > :32:52.the Royal Charter is not a proper statutory underpinning, they will be
:32:52. > :32:57.able to go ahead with that. There statutory underpinning, they will be
:32:57. > :33:01.will be the legal basis for the oversight of the oversight body, and
:33:01. > :33:07.it will basically just be an ambassador that will not be
:33:07. > :33:10.resolved. As you say, no-one much cares about this outside of the
:33:10. > :33:18.profession and a few media watchers. But this has been great politics for
:33:18. > :33:25.Ed Miliband. It is only great politics if he scores a great
:33:25. > :33:29.victory. I take your view that people are cynical about it. But the
:33:30. > :33:34.narrative is, I am the chap who stands up to vested interests. But
:33:34. > :33:36.all those vested interests are people that you would expect a
:33:36. > :33:45.left-wing politician to want to take on. It is also more significant
:33:45. > :33:48.about who he has stood up for, and the person he has studied for is his
:33:48. > :33:54.father. Maybe people thought of him as a Marxist, now they think of him
:33:54. > :34:00.as war hero. He gets to the crux of matters, you know! You are watching
:34:00. > :34:01.the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be
:34:02. > :34:19.speaking to Godfrey Hello, I'm Martyn Oates.
:34:19. > :34:22.Coming up on the Sunday Politics in the South West:
:34:22. > :34:28.The councils being told to stop using parking charges as a cash cow.
:34:28. > :34:31.And for the next 20 minutes I'm joined by Adrian Sanders, the
:34:31. > :34:34.Liberal Democrat MP for Torbay and Councillor Richard Westlake, leader
:34:34. > :34:37.of the Labour group on Devon County Council.
:34:37. > :34:40.Welcome. This week it emerged that Devon and
:34:40. > :34:43.Cornwall's Police and Crime Commissioner is spending 12% more
:34:43. > :34:50.on his staff than the old Police Authority. Meanwhile, a former
:34:50. > :34:55.Conservative leader of Devon County Council said introducing Police
:34:55. > :34:59.Commissioners was a mistake. I was chairman of the Devon and Cornwall
:34:59. > :35:03.police authority and it worked extremely well. I can't think that
:35:03. > :35:07.Policing has improved one iota since the commissioners were
:35:07. > :35:12.appointed. The commissioners are alien to our system in Devon and
:35:12. > :35:17.Cornwall. It emanated in not —— it emanated in America and we were far
:35:17. > :35:21.better as we were. If you have senior Tories
:35:21. > :35:24.criticising the existence of Police And Crime Commissioner has, it has
:35:24. > :35:30.come to something. Were we better the way we work? I think we were.
:35:30. > :35:34.Simon Day should be listened to. He has years of public service to the
:35:34. > :35:39.people of Devon and the south—west and he knows what he is talking
:35:39. > :35:46.about. I think he is right. This new system was supposed to make
:35:46. > :35:55.them more accountable to the public and the public are having to pay
:35:55. > :36:01.more for less police. Part of making the police more visible and
:36:01. > :36:06.consulting nor is one of the reasons for having this. I think
:36:06. > :36:10.the police authority did its fair share of consulting in the past. I
:36:10. > :36:18.don't think it is justified at a time of austerity when we are
:36:18. > :36:21.having bobbies taken off the beat. The most important thing is
:36:21. > :36:26.operational capacity. If you need more people in the backroom been
:36:26. > :36:29.clearly this experiment is not working. Labour was not a fan of
:36:29. > :36:32.the police commissioners, should you be committed to getting rid of
:36:32. > :36:37.them if you why elected after the next general election? We should
:36:37. > :36:43.certainly have a look at it. The election cost £100 million which
:36:43. > :36:46.everyone agrees was a fiasco. Really we are not seeing yet what
:36:46. > :36:51.we were told we were going to get on the tin. It is very important
:36:51. > :36:55.that we have to look at this. The whole problem is that if you want
:36:55. > :36:59.to change things and you change it again, then you always have a cost.
:37:00. > :37:03.That is a real worry. What people are telling me and I am sure they
:37:03. > :37:08.are saying the same to Adrian is we want to see police on our streets,
:37:08. > :37:12.looking after us, walking the streets and fighting crime. That is
:37:12. > :37:19.what they are talking about. The other area they are concerned about
:37:19. > :37:30.his PCF those who do a fantastic job. PCF sos they give so much to
:37:30. > :37:32.the community and that thing that is so important.
:37:32. > :37:35.The Prime Minister has announced that the government is bringing
:37:35. > :37:38.forward the second phase of its Help To Buy housing scheme. But
:37:38. > :37:41.with tens of thousands of people on waiting lists for affordable homes
:37:41. > :37:44.in the region, campaigners say much more radical action is needed to
:37:44. > :37:47.tackle the housing crisis. Tamsin Melville reports.
:37:47. > :37:51.If a first—time buyer was buying that, whereas before they would
:37:51. > :37:55.need... Business has been picking up for this estate agent recently
:37:55. > :38:00.but he is not sure that the Government subsidising mortgages is
:38:01. > :38:04.the answer took housing issues. The main problem we have with house
:38:04. > :38:08.prices in Cornwall as a we are in a small and popular and sought—after
:38:08. > :38:14.geographical area and what we need is more properties built. The Help
:38:14. > :38:19.To Buy scheme was announced in this year's budget. It allows homeowners
:38:19. > :38:22.with a small deposit to get a 95% mortgage. It is backed by a
:38:22. > :38:28.government guarantee and will now be available on new and existing
:38:28. > :38:31.properties in England, worth up to £600,000. As prime minister I am
:38:31. > :38:35.not going to stand back while people's aspirations to get on the
:38:35. > :38:39.housing ladder and own their own home is been trashed, that is why
:38:39. > :38:42.we need to act. Critics say would not enough houses to go round the
:38:43. > :38:47.Government's strategy to help buyers could fuel a housing bubble.
:38:47. > :38:52.This development near Falmouth is under way but in Cornwall alone
:38:52. > :38:57.there are nearly 13,000 homes with planning permission that remain
:38:57. > :39:01.unfilled. With recent reports the south—west is alone in seeing a
:39:01. > :39:06.fall in new build, some argue their needs to be a radical change in
:39:06. > :39:09.thinking. There are plenty of plots, if you like, with planning
:39:09. > :39:13.permission that simply do not go ahead because we have managed to
:39:13. > :39:18.confuse social housing on the one hand with market housing on the
:39:18. > :39:24.other. In my view it would be much better to separate them completely
:39:24. > :39:29.so that affordable housing for rent and shared ownership is one thing
:39:29. > :39:32.and market housing is something different. He believes there is
:39:32. > :39:37.nothing standing in the way of local communities having the homes
:39:37. > :39:41.at prices they can afford. It should be financed by a combination
:39:41. > :39:45.of the Local Enterprise Partnership and local authority pension funds.
:39:45. > :39:52.There is no need for any more government grants and no need for
:39:52. > :39:55.any more public spending. Those who lead the local enterprise
:39:55. > :39:58.partnerships say it is not that simple. They are not all things to
:39:58. > :40:02.everything. We will have a small amount of money to invest but it
:40:02. > :40:06.needs to be strategically invested to get the best value for money
:40:06. > :40:10.that we could possibly have. Throwing all of that at an area of
:40:10. > :40:15.market failure such as affordable housing is not the answer to our
:40:15. > :40:18.budgets. Here there has not been much interested help to buy so far
:40:18. > :40:22.but with a long—term housing solution seemingly a long way off,
:40:22. > :40:25.there are hopes it could get the market on track.
:40:25. > :40:31.Tamsin Melville reporting and Cornwall Conservative MP George
:40:31. > :40:35.Eustice joins us to discuss. Welcome to the programme. Figures
:40:35. > :40:39.from the National House Building Council show that new builds in
:40:39. > :40:43.Cornwall are static or in decline. That is against the background of
:40:43. > :40:48.20% increase across the country last year. It is pretty poor and
:40:48. > :40:52.pretty worrying, isn't it? The Government has a number of policies
:40:52. > :40:56.to increase housebuilding and we have a home shortage and we have
:40:56. > :41:00.people who are unable to get a home of their own. The new homes Bonas
:41:01. > :41:06.has been quite important to encourage local authorities to take
:41:06. > :41:09.the right approach. When we do read —— when we do new—build we should
:41:09. > :41:15.focus on brownfield sites first rather than green field sites like
:41:15. > :41:19.my conserve —— constituency. Would you accept Labour's recitation that
:41:19. > :41:25.you have got the balance wrong with the emphasis you are placing on
:41:25. > :41:29.building rather than facilitating people buying existing houses? We
:41:29. > :41:33.have got the balance right. These figures do not suggest it. We
:41:33. > :41:36.abolish the regional spacial strategies that Labour had that
:41:36. > :41:42.were putting unsustainable housing targets on Cornwall. In my own
:41:42. > :41:46.patch we have plans to build 11,000 houses when there is only 8,000 now
:41:46. > :41:49.and we scrapped the targets and told the local authority was up to
:41:49. > :41:53.them to decide what they needed and they have halved the housing target.
:41:53. > :41:57.We have got it right in terms of planning. We should support people
:41:57. > :42:02.when it comes to buying their new home. One I bought my first flat 10
:42:02. > :42:06.years ago 95% mortgages were normal. It was easy to buy a flat. The did
:42:06. > :42:10.not have to have huge savings. The reality now with that unless you
:42:10. > :42:14.are very wealthy or you have wealthy parents, you are denied the
:42:14. > :42:17.opportunity to own your own home. That cannot be right and we have to
:42:17. > :42:22.support people and help them by making these 95% mortgages which
:42:22. > :42:26.used to be normal available to young people now. Labour makes
:42:26. > :42:30.great play of the fact we are building fewer houses now since the
:42:30. > :42:35.1920s. I have looked into the figures and it appears to be true.
:42:35. > :42:38.The problem is the advice is coming from you in a Labour when
:42:38. > :42:43.housebuilding flat line when you were in government as well. Why do
:42:43. > :42:49.you have the solution now? It is quite important to realise that we
:42:49. > :42:53.do need to have affordable housing. I will say that in terms of council
:42:53. > :42:57.housing we came to this very late and it was at the end of the Labour
:42:57. > :43:01.government that we actually started to see an increase in have —— in a
:43:01. > :43:05.council house building. We have seen in the last three or four
:43:05. > :43:09.years a complete shutdown in some ways because of all the problems we
:43:09. > :43:13.have had with planning regulations and the change in the spatial
:43:13. > :43:18.strategy so we are not seeing... You think has a housing is the way
:43:18. > :43:22.forward? It is true that government facilitated small house will ——
:43:22. > :43:26.some small amount of council house building. You can I have complete,
:43:26. > :43:31.you have got to have a mixture. For councils to have the opportunity
:43:31. > :43:34.for them to develop especially affordable housing which is the key.
:43:34. > :43:38.What we are seeing now is young couples who cannot get on to the
:43:38. > :43:42.housing ladder. What they do do, however, is they are paying rent
:43:42. > :43:46.that is far more than what a mortgage would have been. That is a
:43:46. > :43:51.real problem. Should we build more council housing? We should set the
:43:51. > :43:56.build more affordable housing, more rented accommodation. We are
:43:56. > :44:00.talking about regulated rent, secured Tennessee housing. If we
:44:00. > :44:07.could change the laws on private rented, we could open up the market
:44:07. > :44:11.where people can rent on seven—year or 14 year agreements and that is
:44:11. > :44:14.not something we have here. The private sector could be used to
:44:14. > :44:18.build some of that. The important thing, and I despair when I hear
:44:18. > :44:20.the chairman of the early be not recognising the importance of
:44:21. > :44:25.affordable housing, of keeping skilled people in our labour market
:44:25. > :44:32.and attracting people in to invest in the area. Instead they move away
:44:32. > :44:35.and that is no good for our economy. The LEP has other responsibilities
:44:35. > :44:38.and this discussion has demonstrated that it is pretty
:44:38. > :44:42.complex. Most people I have discussed it with have said there
:44:42. > :44:47.is no one solution and the exception to that seems to be one
:44:47. > :44:51.person who thinks there is. Anything that offers a solution
:44:51. > :44:55.needs to be investigated. We get caught up in a numbers game. It is
:44:55. > :45:00.about meeting local housing need. We are in a high property price
:45:00. > :45:04.area with lower than average wages. We need more affordable housing
:45:04. > :45:08.than would otherwise be the case. Leaving it up to the market I am
:45:08. > :45:13.afraid has put us in the position we are in at the moment. Just
:45:13. > :45:18.bringing George back. On this silver bullet. A I remember
:45:18. > :45:24.discussing this with him about two years ago when he was the first
:45:24. > :45:29.chairman we had a of the MEP for a brief period. It is an interesting
:45:29. > :45:33.idea. What he was saying was let us not chuck public money at this but
:45:33. > :45:36.have their Local Enterprise Partnership facilitator Newmarket
:45:36. > :45:40.way you might get pension funds who are fearful of where they are going
:45:40. > :45:44.to invest their money in a credit crunch, get them to invest in large
:45:44. > :45:47.housing estates where they can have a guaranteed income over a period
:45:47. > :45:52.of time and er thing that is an interesting idea and others have
:45:52. > :45:56.also mentioned this. I think there is scope for this. It is a shame
:45:56. > :45:59.that the Local Enterprise Partnership did not recognise the
:45:59. > :46:03.benefit and the importance of housing to the Cornish economy of.
:46:03. > :46:07.The business community were reluctant to get involved in this
:46:07. > :46:10.because they did not understand the relevance of it but if you are a
:46:10. > :46:14.construction company or a plant hire company that having a vibrant
:46:14. > :46:17.construction industry is important. Thank you very much, we have to
:46:17. > :46:20.leave that there. This week there was more talk about
:46:21. > :46:23.putting up council tax in Cornwall. Cash—strapped authorities have few
:46:23. > :46:26.other options for raising revenue. And one which the Government now
:46:26. > :46:28.says they shouldn't be abusing is parking charges. John Henderson
:46:28. > :46:32.reports. Paying for parking is right up
:46:32. > :46:38.there with the things we love to hate. I see it as a tax on
:46:38. > :46:42.motorists. The impact that it is happening on our local communities
:46:42. > :46:47.I think it is having a detrimental effect. Generally it is ridiculous.
:46:47. > :46:51.It is too dear. If I want to go and pick up a newspaper it costs me a
:46:51. > :46:57.pound to park. Some news from Liskeard. They could be from any
:46:57. > :47:02.car park in the region. It is not cheap to park here, £1 for up to
:47:02. > :47:06.two hours and if you have a £2 coin then there is no change. Perhaps it
:47:06. > :47:12.is one of the reasons why Cornwall council is making eye—watering
:47:12. > :47:16.amounts from its car parks. Eye— watering equals just under £800,
:47:16. > :47:20.put in Cornwall in the top 10 nationally when it comes to profits
:47:20. > :47:24.from car parks. Regionally Cornwallis way out in front. Exeter
:47:24. > :47:28.and Torbay make half as much but are still pretty flush. Others are
:47:28. > :47:33.not doing too badly either, even those near the bottom are making a
:47:33. > :47:37.profit and those riches have not gone unnoticed. What this is about
:47:37. > :47:43.is it is about raking in pretty large sums of money to fill the
:47:43. > :47:47.council coffers. The law is pretty clear. It says there you are not
:47:47. > :47:51.allowed to do that. Cornwall council has said without the
:47:51. > :47:56.largesse from its car parks it would have to cut services and
:47:56. > :47:59.raise council tax. Yes, we are in the top 10 and they don't think it
:47:59. > :48:04.is a surprise. The money we get from parking of course helps us to
:48:04. > :48:07.maintain our car parks and our roads and Allestree lives, our
:48:07. > :48:12.hedges and all the services that people of Cornwall rely on. We do
:48:12. > :48:16.make a surplus and it is put to good use otherwise we would have to
:48:16. > :48:20.find the money from somewhere else. It is a similar story in Torbay
:48:20. > :48:25.where the council openly admits it is trying to maximise income at a
:48:25. > :48:31.time when budgets are tied. Latest figures show the car parts raise
:48:31. > :48:34.£3.7 million a year. Officers say any surpluses put back into the
:48:34. > :48:39.council's overall budget and can be used in the same way as council tax
:48:39. > :48:44.income. They introduced parking meters in 2009 and they bring in
:48:44. > :48:48.over £1 million a year, money it is using to help pay for pension a bus
:48:48. > :48:52.travel. The rules regarding on— street parking revenue are less
:48:52. > :48:56.flexible and some councils have found themselves in trouble. We saw
:48:56. > :49:00.in the High Court a few months ago that Barnet council was found to
:49:00. > :49:04.have acted illegally by setting parking charges not to manage
:49:04. > :49:08.congestion or cover their parking costs but to raise general revenue.
:49:08. > :49:11.We have every sympathy with cash— strapped councils but we have no
:49:11. > :49:15.sympathy with them if they think they can essentially tax motorists
:49:15. > :49:20.to make up the shortfall. Putting up parking charges is tempting for
:49:20. > :49:26.councils, partly because it appears so easy compared to raising council
:49:26. > :49:29.tax. But there are risks. With the government promising to get tough
:49:29. > :49:34.and the public suspicious about where all the money goes.
:49:34. > :49:36.John Henderson reporting. Earlier I spoke the the Local Government
:49:36. > :49:39.Minister Brandon Lewis and asked him for the Government's message to
:49:39. > :49:45.councils like Torbay and Cornwall which openly admit they're using
:49:45. > :49:48.parking charges as a revenue stream. What we say to them is you have to
:49:48. > :49:52.look really carefully at how you develop your area in the future.
:49:52. > :49:57.First the you should not be making profits from parking charges, that
:49:57. > :50:00.is clear. Councils in the future are funded primarily through
:50:00. > :50:04.business rates. We have changed the system this year so any growth in
:50:04. > :50:07.business rates goes back to the district councils directly and a
:50:07. > :50:11.benefit with every little bit of growth. To see a town—centre grow
:50:11. > :50:15.and see business rates grow, we need to see retail rates in the
:50:15. > :50:18.High Street grow. We need to get more people into the High Street
:50:18. > :50:23.and the town centres and parking charges can be a disincentive to
:50:23. > :50:26.put people off coming year. We want people in the town centres and
:50:26. > :50:31.councils should one people there. The best way to do that is to have
:50:31. > :50:36.really good, sensible, attractive parking policies. Actually this is
:50:36. > :50:39.a lot more carrot and stick. Eric Pickles says you should stop doing
:50:39. > :50:44.it because it is bad per se, but this is rather a different argument,
:50:44. > :50:49.this is an incentive. Absolutely, it is both. It is absolutely an
:50:49. > :50:52.incentive. Get more people endure Townsend and your high streets and
:50:52. > :50:55.that will attract more people to your shops which is more money for
:50:55. > :51:00.the council. He declared council should not overcharge for parking
:51:00. > :51:04.charges. That is not what they are about. And they are there to make
:51:04. > :51:06.sure people park sensibly and reasonably. He it is not really
:51:07. > :51:10.what people should be doing but there is nothing to do to stop it
:51:10. > :51:13.other than offering an incentive. We offer an incentive and we are
:51:13. > :51:17.making it clear to councils that we are looking closely at it. We want
:51:17. > :51:21.to make sure that high streets and town centres are attractive places
:51:21. > :51:26.for people and parking charges are part of that. Do you accept the
:51:26. > :51:29.councils are saying that we have throws and council tax, as we have
:51:29. > :51:32.been asked to do and we need to get the money somewhere. If we stop
:51:32. > :51:37.making this money from parking we must put council tax up. The best
:51:37. > :51:41.way for councils to see an increase in their income is an increase in
:51:41. > :51:44.business rates. An increase in business rates comes from more
:51:44. > :51:48.business is doing better and be more successful in the High Street
:51:48. > :51:52.and the town centres. I come back to the secular but positive
:51:52. > :51:54.argument. That means week or more people in town centres and high
:51:54. > :51:58.streets and the easiest way to attract them is have a good offer
:51:58. > :52:02.and a huge part of that is an attractive parking policy. Just to
:52:02. > :52:06.be clear, you accept that councils need to be persuaded by this
:52:06. > :52:11.initial incentive rather than being forced by government. We have been
:52:11. > :52:15.clear to councils that they should not use the parking charges to will
:52:15. > :52:20.raise charges. But effectively they are. They should not be doing that.
:52:20. > :52:24.The law allows them to so clearly they will have their finances are
:52:24. > :52:28.tight. Actually the law is really clear. Parking charges are not
:52:28. > :52:33.supposed be a punitive tax and parking notices are not supposed to
:52:33. > :52:38.be a punitive tax. But the law says if the council brazenly uses ate
:52:38. > :52:43.they are on the wrong side of the law but if they say they have a car
:52:43. > :52:46.park which is self— financing and they have a large surplus the
:52:46. > :52:49.making do what they like with the money, so they are likely to do
:52:49. > :52:54.that. That is where councils will lose out because shoppers will not
:52:54. > :52:57.go into town centres. But you cannot legally stop them doing it?
:52:57. > :53:01.The ultimate issue is about whether people are in the town centres. If
:53:01. > :53:04.they are not then councils lose out because they look shops and
:53:04. > :53:08.business rates and none of us want to say that. They should want to
:53:08. > :53:11.attract people into the town centres with good, attractive
:53:11. > :53:18.sensible parking structures. Thank you very much.
:53:18. > :53:24.Adrian, are you with the the government and the motorist or the
:53:24. > :53:29.council's? I am with keeping vibrant town centres. If Torbay is
:53:29. > :53:34.now getting £1 million from the parking meters they put in, that is
:53:34. > :53:38.£1 million that is not going into shop tills. If I was running the
:53:38. > :53:41.council then I am not sure if I would be able to do anything
:53:41. > :53:45.differently because of being a cash—strapped unitary authority.
:53:45. > :53:50.This is quite a complex issue. If you have a town or parish council
:53:50. > :53:54.that set the precept and it can be spent directly on whatever you want
:53:54. > :53:59.which is why you find car—parking charges are not a cash cow in those
:53:59. > :54:03.areas. If you are a unit tree you have statutory duties so you have
:54:03. > :54:05.to pay for them and what goes over goes towards things like parking
:54:05. > :54:10.and gardens and all the rest of it and the only thing you really
:54:10. > :54:14.control income wise beyond your council tax is car parking charges.
:54:14. > :54:18.Richard, you obviously do not write council but you sit on a council
:54:18. > :54:24.and are involved in these decisions. Well, the off—street parking is a
:54:24. > :54:28.city council in Exeter and the on— street is the county council.
:54:28. > :54:36.Yesterday I was reading through some papers and I noticed that it
:54:36. > :54:43.was about to perform million pounds —— £2.4 million. That we have in
:54:43. > :54:47.parking charges. The problem that Eric Pickles did not say was over
:54:47. > :54:50.the last four years we have had £100 million taken out of our
:54:50. > :54:55.budget and now we have been told we have another £100 million being
:54:55. > :54:59.taken out of our budget so it is balancing how we actually maintain
:54:59. > :55:03.enforcement and maintain our roads and structure and them worry I have
:55:03. > :55:06.is the fact that we are not going to be able to do those things in
:55:06. > :55:10.future. That was another issue we did not get time to get round
:55:10. > :55:18.Now our regular round—up of the political week in 60 seconds.
:55:18. > :55:23.Confirmation that the region is to lose all of its direct flights to
:55:23. > :55:26.London is met with dismay by businesses. I cannot say that I can
:55:26. > :55:31.support further growth within Cornwall at this stage. Meanwhile
:55:31. > :55:35.train passengers to the capital will continue to travel courtesy of
:55:35. > :55:39.First Great Western for the next two years. No problem with First
:55:39. > :55:42.Great Western, it is the agreement with the Government and the lack of
:55:42. > :55:46.any investment in Bristol and the next three years. Buses, roads,
:55:46. > :55:49.libraries and support for vulnerable people are all in the
:55:49. > :55:54.firing line in Cornwall at the Council reveals next year's draft
:55:54. > :55:59.budget. In Devon day—care centres face closure. For those people who
:55:59. > :56:06.need the kind of care that only day centres can offer and a respite for
:56:06. > :56:11.carers, they are essential. And councils across the region asked to
:56:11. > :56:15.stop employing staff on zero hours contracts. I really do feel we
:56:15. > :56:22.ought to stop it and make sure that people have fixed—term contracts on
:56:22. > :56:28.decent wages. So, Adrian, broadly, more bad news
:56:28. > :56:31.for the transport sector. It is a problem for us being on the
:56:31. > :56:35.periphery of the United Kingdom and is vital to have good transport
:56:35. > :56:39.links. The three ingredients of success are a skilled workforce,
:56:39. > :56:42.affordable housing and good transport links. Richard, Exeter is
:56:42. > :56:49.a little better served than the rest of the region but still it is
:56:49. > :56:52.an issue. It is a very serious issue. With First Great Western,
:56:52. > :56:59.the announcement of the 20 three— month extension, but however, that
:56:59. > :57:02.23 months are in limbo and we need to know what is going to happen and
:57:02. > :57:04.we need to see investment in our railways. Thank you very
:57:04. > :57:08.we need to see investment in our We are getting into a discussion of
:57:08. > :57:17.more affordable homes needed, but we have no time. Andrew, back to you.
:57:17. > :57:22.Our next guest is no stranger to controversy, a former UKIP MEP he
:57:22. > :57:44.recently lost his party's whip after a series of outbursts including
:57:44. > :57:47.receiving aid as 'Bongo Bongo Land' and joking that a group of UKIP
:57:47. > :57:52.women who didn't clean behind their fridges were 'sluts'. Now he sits in
:57:52. > :57:55.independent but remains a UKIP party member. Here's a flavour of recent
:57:55. > :58:10.events in the political life of Godfrey Bloom. How you can possibly
:58:10. > :58:16.be giving £1 million a month... Bongo Bongo Land. I got 6000 e-mails
:58:16. > :58:20.within 12 hours, only 47 were not agreeing with me so you are the
:58:20. > :58:23.within 12 hours, only 47 were not that is out of touch. Everybody
:58:23. > :58:27.knows me, a bit like the Marmite joke, they love me or they hate
:58:27. > :58:36.knows me, a bit like the Marmite but I have always told me like it
:58:36. > :58:40.is. I made a joke and said that women who did not clean behind the
:58:40. > :58:46.French were sluts and everybody laughed along, including the women.
:58:46. > :58:51.I have had hundreds of e-mails, saying, God Almighty, can't you
:58:51. > :58:54.I have had hundreds of e-mails, a joke any more? I am long in the
:58:54. > :59:07.correctness and I understand UKIP have moved on and they are doing
:59:07. > :59:10.well, and I wish them well. This, with no black faces on it. You are
:59:10. > :59:17.picking people out for the colour of with no black faces on it. You are
:59:17. > :59:25.their skin? You disgust me! Perhaps the way they are doing things now is
:59:25. > :59:31.disgrace me. We are joined now with a suitable distance between us by
:59:31. > :59:34.the independent MEP for Yorkshire and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You
:59:35. > :59:40.said this weekend that you have and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You
:59:40. > :59:50.be a complete sociopath to be in politics, are you a sociopath? No, I
:59:50. > :59:52.am just an ordinary bloke from the rugby club likes to tell it as it
:59:52. > :59:56.is. I did not come into politics to rugby club likes to tell it as it
:59:56. > :00:03.save my country from the clutches of the awful, evil... That is why I am
:00:03. > :00:15.in politics, and that is why I member, and I will still be voting
:00:15. > :00:21.ability... Do you accept that your conference? We were both born in
:00:21. > :00:25.ability... Do you accept that your same year, we are too old to worry
:00:25. > :00:31.about regrets. Let's look forward and see... Never mind the year I was
:00:31. > :00:35.born, what is the answer to my country and intent to do the best I
:00:35. > :00:43.independent for my country, and country and intent to do the best I
:00:43. > :00:48.re-elected. They are the only game in town, the only party that will
:00:48. > :00:56.get as out. Shouldn't you have been liability? You hijacked the party
:00:56. > :01:00.conference. That is a matter of perception. We have heard nothing in
:01:00. > :01:05.the last two years but it is a one-man band, a Nigel Farage party,
:01:05. > :01:09.and I can make a joke at a fringe meeting and collapse the whole
:01:09. > :01:19.thing. This doesn't say anything Andrew. It tells you about your
:01:19. > :01:26.journalism - it is not about UKIP or me, it was the journalists' reaction
:01:26. > :01:30.to a small joke at a meeting. And also Nigel Farage's reaction - is
:01:30. > :01:43.myself, unless I had a commended. Personality, the most unbelievable
:01:43. > :01:56.force of personality to collapse a party conference. Nigel Farage has
:01:56. > :02:00.been a friend of mine for 20 years, and may I remind you that in June
:02:00. > :02:06.and July UK was slipping in the polls, and when I made my statement
:02:06. > :02:14.about overseas aid, we went back to liability, I never was, I am a vote
:02:14. > :02:18.getter. As you know, there is a correlation, but let me show you
:02:18. > :02:23.what Nigel Farage had to say about you on the BBC. Let's blunder clip
:02:23. > :02:30.of that. We are not here to win friends amongst the liberal elite,
:02:30. > :02:39.and Godfrey's problem was that he manifesto. Don't you need to reflect
:02:39. > :02:41.that you are too outrageous, too politically incorrect even for UKIP?
:02:42. > :02:47.Well, you see, to a certain extent I politically incorrect even for UKIP?
:02:47. > :02:51.have been gagged on other subjects. I am a libertarian, I wanted to
:02:51. > :02:53.have been gagged on other subjects. about flat tax. I thought David
:02:54. > :02:57.Aronowitz wrote a very good piece in the times on drugs, and I have been
:02:57. > :03:02.gagged to speak about any of these things because they are not part of
:03:02. > :03:11.it, so I tend to speak about other things. Maybe they have outgrown
:03:11. > :03:13.machine, and they have to get rid of the Victor Meldrew wing. You might
:03:13. > :03:17.have a point, but I am speaking the Victor Meldrew wing. You might
:03:17. > :03:23.you from Hull, and if you look at Barnsley, and very recently in
:03:23. > :03:28.Scarborough and Whitby in the buy legends, 25%, so how you see things
:03:28. > :03:32.in the bubble, it is not like how we see it appear in Yorkshire. You
:03:32. > :03:35.in the bubble, it is not like how we like the one who was sitting in
:03:35. > :03:35.in the bubble, it is not like how we bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of
:03:35. > :03:41.course it isn't, we are getting bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of
:03:41. > :03:45.of the vote in by-elections, of course it is not. Boy, wouldn't
:03:45. > :03:48.of the vote in by-elections, of main parties and the establishment
:03:48. > :03:52.love to see that! But I am sorry, it is not happening. Will you stand as
:03:52. > :03:55.an independence against UKIP in is not happening. Will you stand as
:03:55. > :04:08.European elections? Almost certainly elections were next week, I could
:04:08. > :04:10.do not think I will go that route. Will you stand as a UKIP candidate
:04:10. > :04:14.again? We do not know, probably Will you stand as a UKIP candidate
:04:14. > :04:18.but I shall certainly be trying Will you stand as a UKIP candidate
:04:18. > :04:21.help UKIP as best I can. You both share a flat, I understand, in
:04:21. > :04:26.Brussels, neither of you clean behind the fridge. Other than the
:04:26. > :04:30.fact that the place is probably quite murky, you have got a chance
:04:30. > :04:34.to talk to each other and get back into his good graces, haven't you? I
:04:34. > :04:44.am sure we will be having a beer before the month is out. So Godfrey
:04:44. > :04:50.take it? For those of you who were shrugged! Thank you very much for
:04:50. > :04:56.joining. A great pleasure. I will have to move my own share, you do
:04:56. > :05:00.not have the sea Jeremy Paxman doing that! Nobody votes for UKIP because
:05:00. > :05:07.they think they are a smooth, slick, absence of PR polish is the reason
:05:07. > :05:11.for their popularity, so these are skirmishes are not a problem, and
:05:11. > :05:15.more than that, Godfrey Bloom does make Nigel Farage look better. Even
:05:15. > :05:20.in that clip from Andrew Marr, he juxtaposition with someone like
:05:20. > :05:25.Godfrey Bloom than he has done before. I mean, he did hijacked
:05:25. > :05:26.Godfrey Bloom than he has done conference, it was a disaster, they
:05:26. > :05:29.got tonnes of publicity but not conference, it was a disaster, they
:05:29. > :05:37.kind they wanted. But you have to journalists. I thought he was sexist
:05:37. > :05:42.long before anyone else, he used to have an incredible page on his
:05:42. > :05:47.website entitled Godfrey Bloom: Misogynist, and the proof that he
:05:47. > :05:53.photographed with a girls' rugby characters in politics. He does
:05:53. > :05:55.photographed with a girls' rugby Nigel Farage look better, but is sin
:05:55. > :06:02.was to say things you said before but to ruin the party conference. It
:06:02. > :06:06.sounds like he is coming back. A beer in Brussels and he will be
:06:06. > :06:07.sounds like he is coming back. A on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a
:06:07. > :06:12.beer in that built the Chechen, on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a
:06:12. > :06:15.sounds like it may be what the deal is that he comes back into UKIP
:06:16. > :06:19.sounds like it may be what the deal does not stand as an MEP at the
:06:19. > :06:22.European Parliamentary elections. -- in that built the kitchen. It is
:06:22. > :06:25.right to say the electorate are sophisticated and they know what
:06:25. > :06:33.this party is for, what characters Godfrey Bloom said for people to
:06:33. > :06:37.electorate know what they go using UKIP four. They are using it as
:06:37. > :06:37.electorate know what they go using vehicle to beat over the head the
:06:38. > :06:41.three established parties. They vehicle to beat over the head the
:06:41. > :06:44.probably do it in the European elections and give them first place.
:06:44. > :06:56.The big question is what happens in problem that Nigel Farage was making
:06:56. > :06:56.The big question is what happens in an Andrew Marr this morning is that
:06:56. > :06:58.he wants to copy the tactics of an Andrew Marr this morning is that
:06:58. > :07:00.he wants to copy the tactics of Paddy Ashdown, get elected and
:07:00. > :07:01.councils, build up a Parliamentary base, and to do that you do need
:07:01. > :07:05.Commons next week, and there is base, and to do that you do need
:07:05. > :07:06.ministerial reshuffle on the cards, that is the rumour in Westminster.
:07:07. > :07:11.David Cameron has spoken of the that is the rumour in Westminster.
:07:11. > :07:12.David Cameron has spoken of the extraordinary talent pool of women
:07:12. > :07:15.among his ministers, so could he bring more of them into the cabinet?
:07:15. > :07:20.He was talking about it earlier bring more of them into the cabinet?
:07:20. > :07:25.week. I think we are getting there in Britain, but we have a long way
:07:25. > :07:29.businesses in Britain, there are not boardroom. If you look at politics
:07:29. > :07:34.in Britain, there aren't nearly enough women around the Cabinet
:07:34. > :07:38.table. So I think, in every walk of life, whether it is the judiciary,
:07:38. > :07:41.whether it is politics, business, there is a lot further to go. Before
:07:41. > :07:45.the last election, we only had there is a lot further to go. Before
:07:45. > :07:48.women Members of Parliament. We there is a lot further to go. Before
:07:48. > :07:50.have around 50, so we have made there is a lot further to go. Before
:07:50. > :07:55.big change, but it is still 50 out of 300, not nearly enough. So we
:07:55. > :08:00.need to do more. My wife likes to say, if you don't have women in
:08:00. > :08:03.need to do more. My wife likes to places, you're not just missing
:08:03. > :08:06.need to do more. My wife likes to missing out on a lot more than
:08:06. > :08:09.need to do more. My wife likes to of the talent, and I think she
:08:09. > :08:14.need to do more. My wife likes to probably has a point. The prime
:08:14. > :08:15.need to do more. My wife likes to there going to be a reshuffle? I
:08:15. > :08:19.think you are right to say there there going to be a reshuffle? I
:08:19. > :08:25.will be a lot more women, they need to change the ratio of women to
:08:25. > :08:33.will be a lot more women, they need called Dave who went to maudlin
:08:33. > :08:43.college. So obviously they are not fishing in the biggest talent pool,
:08:43. > :08:46.but there are numbers. Esther McVey has been selling a very difficult
:08:46. > :08:48.brief in work and pensions, you could see people being given bigger
:08:48. > :08:55.roles. Helen is pretty sure. We could see people being given bigger
:08:55. > :08:58.told it is not a Cabinet level reshuffle me it is under Secretary
:08:58. > :09:05.level, so maybe you could put Esther McVey into the Cabinet. Margot
:09:05. > :09:07.James, who you had here not that long ago, she is very impressive.
:09:07. > :09:12.What is impressive is that some long ago, she is very impressive.
:09:12. > :09:16.like Andrea Leadsom, who is really impressive, worked in the City,
:09:16. > :09:20.like Andrea Leadsom, who is really smart, really big on important
:09:20. > :09:23.intervention, she should still be in there, but she fell out with George
:09:23. > :09:33.Osborne when she dared to criticise him a few years ago over Ed Balls
:09:33. > :09:41.you are doing it on talent, Andrea expectation, if he does not do this
:09:41. > :09:48.now, a tonne of bricks will fall on him. He has got no excuse not to
:09:49. > :09:56.promote women, because the 2010 intake was disproportionately female
:09:56. > :10:00.in terms of talent. The question of the Tories and the struggle with
:10:00. > :10:03.women voters is a very deep and historic one. You have to remember
:10:04. > :10:07.that for most of the post-war period they had an advantage electorally
:10:07. > :10:12.amongst women voters. Many times Conservative government without
:10:12. > :10:14.amongst women voters. Many times women of this country. This began to
:10:14. > :10:21.change in the mid-1990s, and the question is, why has that happened?
:10:21. > :10:26.personalities at the top are now much more hostile to women, or less,
:10:26. > :10:28.personalities at the top are now Brent doubled to female voters?
:10:28. > :10:29.personalities at the top are now is such a deep historical trend
:10:29. > :10:35.personalities at the top are now I do not think one reshuffle will
:10:35. > :10:40.change it. -- or less competent civil. The English party conference
:10:40. > :10:47.season is over, do you share the consensus view that Ed Miliband
:10:47. > :10:51.season is over, do you share the out best of the three party leaders?
:10:52. > :10:56.I think I probably do, but his overall approval ratings are still
:10:57. > :11:00.minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus ten. And the more the recovery seems
:11:00. > :11:03.minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus to take place, and some of the
:11:03. > :11:08.latest figures are quite amazing, they certainly surprised me, you
:11:08. > :11:14.wonder whether Labour's tactic is right to put all their eggs into the
:11:14. > :11:18.living standards basket. I was looking at car sales, which are
:11:18. > :11:22.booming. If people start to feel better, and they don't yet, but
:11:22. > :11:30.booming. If people start to feel they were, it is tougher to go on
:11:30. > :11:32.about living standards. George Osborne's... You have Ed Miliband
:11:32. > :11:37.making a great thing about living standards, but then they say under
:11:37. > :11:43.their breath, this is global forces, outstripping wage increases. And
:11:43. > :11:47.you're absolutely right, as the economy improves, presumably that
:11:47. > :11:51.will be dealt with, but Miliband's argument will be that there are
:11:51. > :11:56.people suffering, and even if the economy recovers, they will still
:11:56. > :12:01.forces, it is difficult to blame the government for that. Body being
:12:01. > :12:06.noticed now, there is nothing worse for the leader of the opposition
:12:06. > :12:11.than to be not noticed. -- but he is being noticed now. It seems that he
:12:11. > :12:13.in many ways has set the political weather. Look at the number of
:12:13. > :12:18.references to the Labour leader weather. Look at the number of
:12:18. > :12:25.Mr Cameron's speech. And in Mr Obama's speech on a similar topic,
:12:25. > :12:31.living standards. Was the mentioning Ed Miliband?! Oh, he was using the
:12:31. > :12:37.same language, he has not gone that far. If I were Ed Miliband, I would
:12:37. > :12:41.be more worried now, because Labour through the kitchen sink at their
:12:41. > :12:45.conference. They came out with the biggest policy announcements they
:12:45. > :12:49.could, compulsory apprenticeships, the energy freeze on prices, and it
:12:49. > :12:54.generated a poll boost which has fizzled away within ten days. I
:12:54. > :12:57.generated a poll boost which has not know where they go from here.
:12:57. > :13:04.What is significant with Ed Miliband conference beaches, he has set the
:13:04. > :13:08.one nation Britain, and the problem with those speeches is people say,
:13:08. > :13:14.they are fine, they are academic, but what does it mean? What you
:13:14. > :13:16.they are fine, they are academic, now is an intellectual framework
:13:17. > :13:20.that translates into policies. The polls to watch are not the ones
:13:20. > :13:24.after the conferences, but at the end of the month when it has also
:13:24. > :13:28.pulled down. They will tell us where we are going. We will have to go
:13:28. > :13:31.ourselves now. Thank you to our guests. The Daily Politics will
:13:31. > :13:34.ourselves now. Thank you to our back tomorrow at noon on BBC Two,
:13:34. > :13:37.and I will be back on BBC One this time, same time, next week. If it is
:13:37. > :13:39.Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.