:00:39. > :00:44.Good morning and welcome to The Sunday Politics. Alex Salmond says a
:00:45. > :00:49.vote for Scottish independence would be an act of national self belief.
:00:50. > :00:53.His deputy joins us live from the SNP conference in Perth. Is
:00:54. > :00:59.Whitehall meddling too much in modern affairs? The Communities
:01:00. > :01:04.Secretary, Eric Pickles, joins me for The Sunday Interview. Senior
:01:05. > :01:06.coppers will be answering questions this week over the Andrew bachelor
:01:07. > :01:12.for. In the South West: A warning the
:01:13. > :01:14.promise of affordable flood insurance for all is far from
:01:15. > :01:16.water`tight. And the sheep farmers calling for a relaxation of the
:01:17. > :01:32.hunting ban. All of that to come. And the Home
:01:33. > :01:37.Office minister sacked by Nick Clegg, who says his party is like a
:01:38. > :01:42.wonky shopping trolley, which keeps veering off to the left. He will
:01:43. > :01:50.join us live at noon. With me to unpack all of this, Nick Watt, Helen
:01:51. > :01:56.Lewis and Iain Martin. They will be tweeting throughout the programme,
:01:57. > :02:00.using hashtag #bbcsp. It is the last day of the Scottish national party
:02:01. > :02:04.conference in Perth. We have discovered that Alex Salmond has
:02:05. > :02:09.been on the same diet as Beyonce. The SNP leader compared his attempts
:02:10. > :02:14.to lose weight with the campaign for independence - lots achieved so far,
:02:15. > :02:17.20 more to do. In a moment, I will be joined by the deputy leader of
:02:18. > :02:28.the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. First they report on the independence
:02:29. > :02:33.campaign. September 18 2014, the date of destiny for Scotland, the
:02:34. > :02:37.day when these campaigners hope its people will decide to vote yes for
:02:38. > :02:42.independence. In a recent poll, only 14% said they knew enough to vote
:02:43. > :02:47.either way. That is unlikely to change any time soon. I think the
:02:48. > :02:50.Scottish people will be going to the polls next year still not knowing an
:02:51. > :02:56.awful lot of stuff which is important, because the outcome, in
:02:57. > :03:00.terms of taxation, debt, exactly what will happen to the allocation
:03:01. > :03:04.of assets between the two countries, will come about as a result of
:03:05. > :03:09.negotiation between a Scottish government and the UK Government.
:03:10. > :03:14.That is not stuff which will be known year. At the moment, polls
:03:15. > :03:17.suggest Scotland will decide to remain within the UK. A recent
:03:18. > :03:24.survey found that 44% of those questioned planned to vote no, 5%
:03:25. > :03:29.yes. But interestingly, the undecideds were at 31%, suggesting
:03:30. > :03:34.that Alex Salmond's task might be tough but not impossible. There are
:03:35. > :03:40.a number of reasons which make a vanilla campaign a good idea. It
:03:41. > :03:43.does not put off cautious voters, it allows for people to imagine their
:03:44. > :03:47.own version of what independence will be like, and crucially, it
:03:48. > :03:52.allows for the yes campaign to take advantage of any mistakes by the no
:03:53. > :03:56.campaign. In other words, the yes campaign are not out there with big
:03:57. > :04:00.ideas, they are just waiting for the no campaign to trip up. What we do
:04:01. > :04:05.know is that whatever happens next September, Scotland will be getting
:04:06. > :04:08.more power. From 2016, a separate income tax regime will come into
:04:09. > :04:12.force, giving the Scottish Parliament control over billions of
:04:13. > :04:16.pounds of revenue. What we do not know yet is how the alternative
:04:17. > :04:20.would pan out. There are issues which would be raised by
:04:21. > :04:24.independence, issues about how the national debt is allocated, what the
:04:25. > :04:27.currency will look like, how an independent Scotland would balance
:04:28. > :04:31.the books, because it would have a bigger job to do, even down the
:04:32. > :04:34.Whitehall government has to do. Those are really big issues, which a
:04:35. > :04:39.Scottish government would have to face, on top of whatever negotiation
:04:40. > :04:42.it had to have with the UK Government. The Scottish
:04:43. > :04:46.government's White Paper on independence, two to be published
:04:47. > :04:53.within weeks, should fill in some of the banks. But how Scotland votes in
:04:54. > :04:59.September may yet be determined by what it feels rather than what it
:05:00. > :05:02.knows. And joining me from Perth is Scotland's Deputy First Minister,
:05:03. > :05:09.Nicola Sturgeon. Nicola Sturgeon, we meet again! Hello, Andrew. Former
:05:10. > :05:13.leader of the SNP Gordon Wilson said, if this referendum fails, it
:05:14. > :05:18.will fail on the basis that people put their British identity ahead of
:05:19. > :05:25.their Scottish identity, so we have got to attack on the British
:05:26. > :05:28.identity - what does he mean? Gordon Wilson is a very respected, much
:05:29. > :05:34.loved former leader of the SNP. My view is that I do not think the
:05:35. > :05:38.independence referendum is really about identity. I am secure and
:05:39. > :05:45.proud of my Scottish identity, but this is a decision about where power
:05:46. > :05:49.best lies. Do decision-making powers best lie here in Scotland, with a
:05:50. > :05:53.government which is directly accountable to the people of
:05:54. > :05:57.Scotland, or does it best lie in Westminster, with governments which,
:05:58. > :06:01.very often, people in Scotland do not vote for? That is the issue at
:06:02. > :06:11.the heart of the campaign. Let me just clarify, you do not agree with
:06:12. > :06:16.him, that you need to go on the attack with regard to the British
:06:17. > :06:20.identity of Scottish people? No I do not think we are required to
:06:21. > :06:25.attack British identity. It is absolutely compatible for somebody
:06:26. > :06:28.to feel a sense of British identity but still support Scottish
:06:29. > :06:34.independence, because Scottish independence is about a transfer of
:06:35. > :06:36.power. It is about good government, accountable government, ensuring
:06:37. > :06:40.that decisions are taking here in Scotland, by people who have got the
:06:41. > :06:45.biggest stake in getting those decisions right. I represent a
:06:46. > :06:49.constituency in the south side of Glasgow, and if you speak to many
:06:50. > :06:53.people in my constituency, if you ask them their national identity,
:06:54. > :06:57.many of them would say Irish, Pakistani, Indian, Polish, and many
:06:58. > :07:01.of them will vote yes next year because they understand the issue at
:07:02. > :07:06.stake, which is the issue of where decisions are best taken. It looks
:07:07. > :07:09.like you are changing tack ex-, you have realised the softly softly
:07:10. > :07:13.approach, of saying that actually, nothing much will change, we will
:07:14. > :07:18.still have the Queen, the currency, and all the rest of it, is moving
:07:19. > :07:25.over towards voting for a left-wing future for Scotland... Well, I know
:07:26. > :07:32.that what we are doing is pointing out is pointing out the choice
:07:33. > :07:37.between two futures. If we vote yes, we take our own future into our own
:07:38. > :07:42.hands. We make sure that for ever after, we have governments which
:07:43. > :07:46.will be in demented policies which we have voted for. If we do not
:07:47. > :07:49.become independent, then we continue to run the risk of having
:07:50. > :07:55.governments not only that we do not vote for, but often, that Scotland
:07:56. > :07:58.rejects. We are seeing the dismantling of our system of social
:07:59. > :08:02.security. There are politicians in all of the UK parties who are
:08:03. > :08:08.itching to cut Scotland's share of spending. So Scotland faces a choice
:08:09. > :08:11.of two futures, and it is right to point out the positive consequences
:08:12. > :08:17.of voting yes, but also the consequences of voting no. But you
:08:18. > :08:22.are promising to reverse benefit cuts and increase the minimum wage.
:08:23. > :08:25.You would renationalise the Royal Mail, though how you would do that
:08:26. > :08:30.nobody knows. You are promising to cut energy bills. These are the kind
:08:31. > :08:35.of promises that parties make in a general election campaign, not in a
:08:36. > :08:40.once in 300 years extra stench or choice. Is the future of Scotland
:08:41. > :08:50.really going to be decided on the size of the minimum wage? --
:08:51. > :08:56.existential choice. A yes vote would be about bringing decision-making
:08:57. > :09:01.powers home, but we are also setting out some of the things an SNP
:09:02. > :09:03.government would do, if elected A decision on what the first
:09:04. > :09:07.government of an independent Scotland would be would not be taken
:09:08. > :09:13.in the referendum, that decision would be taken in the 2016 election.
:09:14. > :09:15.And all of the parties will put forward their offers to the
:09:16. > :09:19.electorate. We are setting out some of the things which we think it is
:09:20. > :09:25.important to be prioritised. These are things which have a lot of
:09:26. > :09:30.support in Scotland. We see the pain being felt by people because of the
:09:31. > :09:33.rising cost of energy bills, there is widespread opposition to some of
:09:34. > :09:37.the welfare cuts. So, we are setting out the options which are open to
:09:38. > :09:42.Scotland, but only open to Scotland if we have the powers of
:09:43. > :09:47.independence. Given that you seem to be promising aid permanent socialist
:09:48. > :09:51.near Varna, if Scotland is independent, if you are right of
:09:52. > :09:56.centre in Scotland, and I understand that is a minority pursuit where you
:09:57. > :10:02.are, but it would be a big mistake to vote for independence, in that
:10:03. > :10:05.case, wouldn't it? No, because the whole point of independence is that
:10:06. > :10:10.people get the country they want, and the government a vote for. So,
:10:11. > :10:15.right of centre people should not vote for independence? No, because
:10:16. > :10:18.people who are of that political persuasion in Scotland get the
:10:19. > :10:23.opportunity to vote for parties which represent that persuasion and
:10:24. > :10:27.if they can persuade a majority to vote likewise, then they will get a
:10:28. > :10:30.government which reflects that. That is the essence of independence.
:10:31. > :10:34.Right now, we have a Westminster government which most people in
:10:35. > :10:39.Scotland rejected at the last general election. That is hardly
:10:40. > :10:43.democratic. It is right and proper that the SNP, as the current
:10:44. > :10:58.government, points out the opportunities that would be opening
:10:59. > :11:03.up. Can I just clarify one thing, when we spoke on The Daily Politics
:11:04. > :11:09.earlier last week, you made it clear to me that Alex Salmond, we know he
:11:10. > :11:12.wants to debate with David Cameron, but you made it clear to me that he
:11:13. > :11:22.would debate with Alistair Darling as well, and Mr Carmichael... He
:11:23. > :11:26.made it clear yesterday. Well, he said to the BBC this morning that he
:11:27. > :11:29.would only debate with these people after he had had a debate with Mr
:11:30. > :11:35.Cameron, so who is right? I was making the point last week, and Alex
:11:36. > :11:39.Salmond was making it yesterday and this morning - let's have that
:11:40. > :11:42.agreement by David Cameron to come and debate with Alex Salmond, and
:11:43. > :11:49.then Alex Salmond, just like me will debate with allcomers. So if he
:11:50. > :11:54.does not get the David Cameron debate, then he will not do the
:11:55. > :11:59.others, is that right? Let's focus on is wading David Cameron to do the
:12:00. > :12:08.right thing. So, in other words he will not debate, yes or no? Members
:12:09. > :12:13.of the SNP government... We know that, but what about Alex Salmond?
:12:14. > :12:17.He said yesterday, we will debate with all sorts of people, including
:12:18. > :12:33.the people you have spoken about, but David Cameron should not be let
:12:34. > :12:41.off the hook just putting aside the independence issue, energy prices
:12:42. > :12:46.are now even playing into the SNP, so every political party has to do
:12:47. > :12:51.something about energy prices. Yes, it is clearly it is interesting is
:12:52. > :12:55.the difference between the SNP and the Labour approach. Ed Miliband
:12:56. > :12:58.electrified the party conference season when he said he would freeze
:12:59. > :13:02.energy prices for 20 months, seemingly having an amazing control
:13:03. > :13:07.over the energy market, where we know that essentially what pushes
:13:08. > :13:12.prices up the wholesale prices on world market. What Nicola Sturgeon
:13:13. > :13:16.is talking about is actually saying, this amount is added to your bills
:13:17. > :13:21.for green levies, and we are going to take them off your bills and they
:13:22. > :13:25.will be paid out of general taxation in an independent Scotland. That is
:13:26. > :13:29.a credible government, making a credible case, very different to
:13:30. > :13:33.what Labour is saying, although playing to the same agenda. So,
:13:34. > :13:39.Labour has got a populist policy, the SNP has also got a populist
:13:40. > :13:48.policy, the one group of people that do not have a decent response to
:13:49. > :13:52.this is the coalition? Exactly. What the SNP also have is a magic money
:13:53. > :13:56.pot, so that speech yesterday, you are right, it was very left wing,
:13:57. > :14:01.social democratic, but there was none of the icing like Labour has
:14:02. > :14:05.been talking about, with fiscal responsibility. I think that is the
:14:06. > :14:08.difference between the two. We know what the Tories would really like to
:14:09. > :14:12.do, all of these green levies which were put on our bills in the good
:14:13. > :14:18.times, when they were going to be the greenest party ever, the Tories
:14:19. > :14:23.would like to say, let's just wipe out some of them, put the rest on to
:14:24. > :14:29.some general government spending, but they have a problem, which is in
:14:30. > :14:38.the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Not only that, they really
:14:39. > :14:41.are stuck now. But there is something in the free schools debate
:14:42. > :14:46.this morning, the parties are now determined to send a message to
:14:47. > :14:51.their potential voters at the next election, that they are trying to
:14:52. > :14:54.fight their coalition partners. Do not expected any change in coalition
:14:55. > :14:59.policy or free schools policy before the election, but we can expect to
:15:00. > :15:02.hear the parties try to pretend that they are taking on their coalition
:15:03. > :15:07.partners. Mr Clegg has said, we would put this free schools policy
:15:08. > :15:12.into our manifesto, so is it not possible that the Tories will say,
:15:13. > :15:15.if you give us an overall majority, we will cut your electricity bill
:15:16. > :15:20.because we will get rid of these green levies? I think that is
:15:21. > :15:23.entirely possible. The Tories know that they are stuck on this, they do
:15:24. > :15:28.not have a response to Ed Miliband. How much should ministers in
:15:29. > :15:34.Whitehall medal in local decisions across England? In opposition, David
:15:35. > :15:39.Cameron said he wanted a fundamental shift of power from Whitehall to
:15:40. > :15:58.local people. He said, when one size fits all solution is...
:15:59. > :16:02.Eric Pickles described it as "an historic shift of power". But the
:16:03. > :16:08.Communitites and Local Government Secretary can't stop meddling. In
:16:09. > :16:11.the past few months Mr Pickles has tried to ban councils from using
:16:12. > :16:15.CCTV cameras and "spy cars" to fine motorists... Told councils how to
:16:16. > :16:19.act quicker to shut down illegal travellers' sites... Criticised
:16:20. > :16:24.councils who want to raise council tax... Insisted councils release
:16:25. > :16:30.land to residents hoping to build their own property... And stated new
:16:31. > :16:34.homes should have a special built in bin storage section. It seems not a
:16:35. > :16:38.week goes by without a policy announcement from the hyper active
:16:39. > :16:43.Mr Pickles. So is the government still committed to localism, or is
:16:44. > :16:46.it all about centralism now? And Communities Secretary Eric
:16:47. > :17:00.Pickles joins me now for the Sunday Interview.
:17:01. > :17:06.Welcome. Nice to be here. You said in July you were going to give town
:17:07. > :17:15.halls the power to wreak their local magic. So why issue diktats from
:17:16. > :17:22.Westminster? It is not about giving power to local councils, it is going
:17:23. > :17:29.beyond that to local people. If local councils refuse to open up
:17:30. > :17:34.their books, we have to go straight to local people. You have attacked
:17:35. > :17:39.councillors using so-called spy cameras to enforce parking rules.
:17:40. > :17:45.Why is that your business? Because there is an injustice taking place.
:17:46. > :17:52.You cannot use fines to raise money and that is plainly happening. If
:17:53. > :17:59.you get yourself a ticket from a CCTV, it could be days or weeks
:18:00. > :18:03.before that lands on your doorstep and you have virtually no
:18:04. > :18:09.possibility to be able to defend yourself. But just leave it to
:18:10. > :18:14.people to vote out the council then. We are trying to enforce the law and
:18:15. > :18:22.it clearly states that you cannot use parking fines in order to fund
:18:23. > :18:26.general rate. So why are you not taking them to court if they are
:18:27. > :18:34.breaking the law? There have been a number of court cases taken by local
:18:35. > :18:41.residents. I am there to stand by local residents. Your even trying to
:18:42. > :18:48.micromanage, allowing motorist s to park for 15 minutes in local high
:18:49. > :18:51.street. Why is that your business? I'm trying to ensure that local
:18:52. > :18:59.authorities understand the importance of the town centre. If
:19:00. > :19:03.you look at all opinion polls, right now there is a five-minute leeway
:19:04. > :19:09.but there are many cases of people being jumped on by parking officials
:19:10. > :19:15.for quite trivial things. It is about saying, surely I can go and
:19:16. > :19:20.get a pint of milk. But a party that dines out on localism, that is a
:19:21. > :19:26.matter for local people, not the men in Whitehall. I have to be on the
:19:27. > :19:34.side of local people. That person who wants to go and get a pint of
:19:35. > :19:38.milk. Ultimately it is a matter for them. It is a matter for the
:19:39. > :19:44.council. But a little bit of criticism is not a bad thing. You
:19:45. > :19:48.have now declared war on the wheelie bin and suggested that new homes
:19:49. > :19:59.should have built in storage sections. You just cannot help
:20:00. > :20:06.meddling! I suppose that is possible. You are a meddler! I am in
:20:07. > :20:16.charge of building regulations and planning. So I may have some
:20:17. > :20:25.responsibility there. Another one, interfering in local planning
:20:26. > :20:30.decisions. A couple of places, you ruled in favour of developers. They
:20:31. > :20:38.want to build over 200 houses against the wishes of the parish and
:20:39. > :20:43.district councils. The local MP said the Secretary of State's decision
:20:44. > :20:49.runs roughshod over any concept of localism. Now I have to be a
:20:50. > :20:58.blushing violet because of course this is still potentially subject to
:20:59. > :21:11.judicial review. I have to act properly. And Apple went is entitled
:21:12. > :21:16.to justice. -- an applicant. A local authority has a duty to ensure that
:21:17. > :21:24.is adequate housing for people in their area. This was not a decision
:21:25. > :21:27.that I took as a personal decision, it was on the advice of an
:21:28. > :21:35.inspector. But you contradict what David Cameron himself said in 2 12,
:21:36. > :21:42.he spoke about a vision where we give communities much more say and
:21:43. > :21:46.local control. People in villages fear big housing estates being
:21:47. > :21:59.plonked from above. You have just done exactly that. After a proper
:22:00. > :22:03.quasi judicial enquiry. What we have is planning framework which local
:22:04. > :22:10.people can decide where it goes But they cannot say, nothing here. They
:22:11. > :22:15.have to have a five-year housing supply. Previous to this government
:22:16. > :22:23.decided exactly where houses would go, now local people can take the
:22:24. > :22:26.lead. Anna Silbury said because of the way your department rules, local
:22:27. > :22:36.authorities now have no alternative but to agree development on green
:22:37. > :22:40.belt land. I do not accept that I think around Nottingham there are
:22:41. > :22:48.particular problems with regards to the green belt. The matter has been
:22:49. > :22:59.referred back. the green belt. The matter has been
:23:00. > :23:05.want to see development on the green belt but on Brownfield site. We want
:23:06. > :23:05.to see underused land. But you have to remember why we have the green
:23:06. > :23:12.belt. Not to remember why we have the green
:23:13. > :23:13.nice, it is their to prevent conurbations bumping into one
:23:14. > :23:18.another. Your conurbations bumping into one
:23:19. > :23:23.is vocal about the need to deal what he calls the historic under
:23:24. > :23:35.provision of housing. Shelter says we need 250,000 new homes per year.
:23:36. > :23:35.provision of housing. Shelter says Houston statistics are getting
:23:36. > :23:38.there, but nowhere near that. - housing. You cannot
:23:39. > :23:40.there, but nowhere near that. - localism agenda as well as meeting
:23:41. > :23:53.housing demand. I do not accept that. We inherited a position where
:23:54. > :23:59.the lowest level of building since the 1920s was in place. But it has
:24:00. > :24:05.steadily improved. It does take a while. You cannot have a localism
:24:06. > :24:10.agenda where people call the shots on housing as well as meeting the
:24:11. > :24:16.housing demand. People have a duty to ensure that future generations
:24:17. > :24:21.have somewhere to live. You cannot pull up the drawbridge. There is
:24:22. > :24:27.nothing incompatible between that and localism. Because someone has to
:24:28. > :24:34.be the voice of those people who are going to live there and to make sure
:24:35. > :24:40.there is the proper amount. Plans now exist for more than 150,000
:24:41. > :24:45.homes to be built on protected land, including the green belt. That will
:24:46. > :24:50.mean riding over local concerns Each application will be taken on
:24:51. > :24:55.its own merits. To suggest that there is an assault on the green
:24:56. > :24:59.belt is as far from the truth as you can imagine. Should Andrew Mitchell
:25:00. > :25:03.get his job back if the years exonerated? I would be honoured to
:25:04. > :25:11.sit with Andrew Mitchell in the Cabinet. I have always believed his
:25:12. > :25:14.version. But it is a matter for the Prime Minister who he has in
:25:15. > :25:23.government. He would have no problem in seeing him back in Cabinet?
:25:24. > :25:27.Absolutely not. Your mother answered Vulcan junior minister Nick balls
:25:28. > :25:33.said about the Royal Charter for the press, there's nothing we have done
:25:34. > :25:36.that troubles me as much as this. Is that your view? It is not. I accept
:25:37. > :25:44.the compromise agreement put together. If the press want to have
:25:45. > :25:49.an additional protection that the Royal Charter offers, then they can
:25:50. > :25:55.move into the system. But if they want to continue independently that
:25:56. > :26:02.is acceptable to me. But you previously echoed Thomas Jefferson,
:26:03. > :26:07.you said for a free society to operate the river of a free press
:26:08. > :26:15.has to flow without restriction That is what I said at the time We
:26:16. > :26:22.had to find a compromise. And that seems to me to be a better
:26:23. > :26:34.compromise. Let me just show you this little montage of pictures that
:26:35. > :26:42.we have. I could not be happier Then you are in the Desert and there
:26:43. > :26:56.you are in San Francisco. Then you are in the casino. That is my
:26:57. > :27:02.personal favourite. These students took a cardboard cutout of you and
:27:03. > :27:08.took it round the world with them. Did you ever think you would become
:27:09. > :27:13.a student icon? I always felt secretly that that might happen one
:27:14. > :27:21.day. But it came earlier in my career than I thought! Why would
:27:22. > :27:29.they do that? I think they thought I could do with a bit of an airing! I
:27:30. > :27:37.went to Norfolk earlier, but that looks better. Thank you.
:27:38. > :27:40.On Wednesday senior police folk including chief constables, will be
:27:41. > :27:44.questioned by MPs about what's become known as Plebgate. That's the
:27:45. > :27:47.incident in Downing Street last year which led to the resignation of the
:27:48. > :27:49.government chief whip Andrew Mitchell. Last week the Independent
:27:50. > :27:51.Police Complaints Commission questioned the "honesty and
:27:52. > :27:57.integrity" of police officers who met Mr Mitchell following the row.
:27:58. > :28:04.So do scandals like this affect public trust in the police? Here's
:28:05. > :28:10.Adam Fleming. It's a story of politics, the
:28:11. > :28:12.police, and CCTV. No, not Andrew Mitchell, but an MP's researcher
:28:13. > :28:19.called Alex Bryce and his partner Iain Feis.
:28:20. > :28:23.It started on a summer night in 2011. They'd been in Parliament
:28:24. > :28:28.After a few words with a police officer, Ian was wrestled to the
:28:29. > :28:32.ground. Alex came to have a look and the same thing happened to him. Both
:28:33. > :28:37.were arrested and charged. These pictures emerged on day one of their
:28:38. > :28:44.trial. A trial that was halted because the police version of events
:28:45. > :28:51.just didn't match the footage. A lot of people with incidence like this
:28:52. > :28:55.which we experienced, people think there is no smoke without fire. So
:28:56. > :29:02.when we said we did nothing wrong, people would think police just would
:29:03. > :29:06.not do that. There is always that underlying view that some people
:29:07. > :29:11.have. I think that has been challenged and people who know us
:29:12. > :29:14.believe that. This year the Met apologised and paid compensation.
:29:15. > :29:20.And it's led to an unlikely sort of friendship. When the truth came out
:29:21. > :29:24.about the Andrew Mitchell story I actually sent him an e-mail to
:29:25. > :29:31.congratulate him about the truth coming out. He did send a reply
:29:32. > :29:34.acknowledging that. So where are we with THAT saga? Remember last
:29:35. > :29:38.September? Andrew Mitchell had a row with police at the gates of Downing
:29:39. > :29:41.Street about his bike. He lost his job as chief whip after accusations
:29:42. > :29:47.he called the officers plebs. That, he's always denied. This week the
:29:48. > :29:50.police watchdog the IPCC suggested that three officers may have lied
:29:51. > :29:56.about a meeting with him at the height of the scandal. Add that to
:29:57. > :30:01.the charge sheet of cases that haven't exactly flattered the
:30:02. > :30:05.police. Like the revelation of a cover up over Hillsborough. The
:30:06. > :30:11.prosecution of an officer from the Met over the death of Ian Tomlinson
:30:12. > :30:14.during protests in 2009. Along with news that undercover officers were
:30:15. > :30:19.told to smear the family of Stephen Lawrence. During Thursday's protest
:30:20. > :30:24.by teachers in Westminster the police operation was really, really
:30:25. > :30:28.relaxed. And recent scandals have done nothing to affect society's
:30:29. > :30:32.view of the boys and girls in blue - or should I say hi-vis. About 6 % of
:30:33. > :30:39.the public say they trust the police. And that's not budged since
:30:40. > :30:48.pollsters started measuring it 0 years ago.
:30:49. > :30:54.Of course, in Britain, crime is down, so the perception might be
:30:55. > :30:58.that the police is doing a good job. And the rank-and-file recently
:30:59. > :31:04.seamed pretty chipper at this awards ceremony. Is it a good time to be a
:31:05. > :31:10.police officer? It is a good time. Despite all of the headlines? Still
:31:11. > :31:14.a good time. But speak to officers privately, and they say Plebgate is
:31:15. > :31:17.affecting how the public see them. Some of them also think
:31:18. > :31:23.politicians, the Tories especially, are enjoying that a little too much.
:31:24. > :31:30.Adam Fleming reporting there. Going head-to-head on this issue of trust
:31:31. > :31:36.in the police, a Sunday Mirror columnist and Peter Kirkham, former
:31:37. > :31:42.chief inspector. Peter Kirkham, let me come to you first. Plebgate, the
:31:43. > :31:48.cover-ups over John Charles De menace, the death of Ian Tomlinson,
:31:49. > :31:53.the industrial deception over Hillsborough, why is the culture of
:31:54. > :31:58.deceit so prevalent in the police? I do not agree there is a cultural
:31:59. > :32:02.deceit. These are all individual incidents which raise individual
:32:03. > :32:05.issues. I would suggest that your short headline summarising each of
:32:06. > :32:14.them has taken the most negative view of it. How can you be positive
:32:15. > :32:18.about the police's behaviour over Hillsborough? It remains to be seen
:32:19. > :32:20.with the inquiry but we are probably talking about a handful of senior
:32:21. > :32:31.officers, dealing with the paperwork. Well over 100 testimonies
:32:32. > :32:36.being doctored by the police. Well, those testimonies were true to start
:32:37. > :32:41.with, so the officers have told the truth, and they have been changed
:32:42. > :32:45.for some reason. By the police. By the police all lawyers we have got
:32:46. > :32:51.this thing that the police conflates everything. There are 43 forces
:32:52. > :32:59.there is ACPO, there is the College Of Policing... People say it was a
:33:00. > :33:03.handful of police officers, it wasn't, it was six senior police
:33:04. > :33:07.officers who were alleged to have doctored 106 D4 statements. Even
:33:08. > :33:16.today we are hearing that more than 1000 officers are yet to be spoken
:33:17. > :33:19.to about Hillsborough. -- 164. Do we pretend that Hillsborough, and some
:33:20. > :33:26.of these examples, are the exception rather than the rule? What is the
:33:27. > :33:31.evidence that this is now prevalent in our police? I think there is a
:33:32. > :33:34.lot of evidence, and Plebgate is probably the thing which has
:33:35. > :33:38.clinched it. The public want to know, how deep does this girl? The
:33:39. > :33:44.audacity of a group of policemen who think they can set up a Cabinet
:33:45. > :33:48.minister. Five of those who were arrested and bailed still have not
:33:49. > :33:51.been charged. One of those officers actually wrote an e-mail pretending
:33:52. > :33:57.to be a member of the public. I do not see what the problem is in
:33:58. > :34:00.prosecuting them for that. Taking Plebgate, there are loads of
:34:01. > :34:03.different bits of that incident There is the officers on duty in
:34:04. > :34:09.Downing Street, the issue of who leaked the story to the Sun, there
:34:10. > :34:12.are the officers who claim to have been there who would appear not to
:34:13. > :34:15.have been there, and then we have got the West Midlands meeting
:34:16. > :34:24.issue, which has sort of been resolved this week. There has been
:34:25. > :34:27.misconduct. But at a lower level. But it is the audacity of an
:34:28. > :34:32.organisation which thinks it can take on an elected minister and
:34:33. > :34:35.destroy him for their own political purposes, at a time when the
:34:36. > :34:39.Government are cutting please pay, when they are freezing their
:34:40. > :34:43.pensions and reducing their numbers. It looks very much to all of us the
:34:44. > :34:46.public, that the police are at war with the government, and they are
:34:47. > :34:51.going to do anything they can to discredit the Government. The police
:34:52. > :35:00.would have every reason to be at war with the Government, because there
:35:01. > :35:05.if there is a crisis of trust.. But it looks like they fitted up a
:35:06. > :35:11.Cabinet minister. That remains to be seen, it is being investigated. We
:35:12. > :35:16.know that those Birmingham officers, they totally misrepresented to, if
:35:17. > :35:20.not lied outright, about what was said. Again, that is a
:35:21. > :35:24.misrepresentation of what happened. If you actually go and look at what
:35:25. > :35:31.is said, it is plain from the context, they were saying, he has
:35:32. > :35:37.told us nothing new. But he had in the transcript, it said he hadn't.
:35:38. > :35:42.He would not admit he had used the word pleb. He apologised profusely,
:35:43. > :35:47.he said it would never happen again, he said many things that he had not
:35:48. > :35:52.said before. I agree, which is presumably... Thereon many police
:35:53. > :35:56.forces in this country, they have one of the toughest jobs in the
:35:57. > :36:02.land, they end up getting involved in almost anything which happens in
:36:03. > :36:08.society, and there are obviously a number of difficult examples, but
:36:09. > :36:16.what is the evidence that it is out of hand, other than just several bad
:36:17. > :36:18.apples? This bad apples argument, we have some amazing police people,
:36:19. > :36:22.thank God, but it is because of those that we have to root out the
:36:23. > :36:27.bad ones, the ones that are possibly corrupt. From where most of us are
:36:28. > :36:30.standing, the ones who are being accused of being corrupt, there does
:36:31. > :36:34.not seem to be any process to deal with these people. The trouble with
:36:35. > :36:39.a rotten apple is that it spreads. It is not fair on the good cops to
:36:40. > :36:42.be tainted by this, and I think the police force, as an institution...
:36:43. > :36:50.For all of us, we have to respect the police. There is a problem, is
:36:51. > :36:56.there not? People do worry that if you can fit up a Cabinet minister,
:36:57. > :37:00.you can fit up anybody... . I would disagree that anybody has proved
:37:01. > :37:04.that anybody has been fitted up. We are yet to hear what happened at the
:37:05. > :37:09.gates of Downing Street. But what we do know about the gates of Downing
:37:10. > :37:16.Street is that we were told by the police officers that passers-by had
:37:17. > :37:26.heard this incredible row, where Mitchell's file went was bullied.
:37:27. > :37:32.That is not true... . They did not use those words, actually. All
:37:33. > :37:43.right, but it is clear that the Police Federation jumped on this as
:37:44. > :37:47.a politically motivated campaign... I have always said that politics
:37:48. > :37:51.should be kept out of policing. The federation, they cannot go on
:37:52. > :37:55.strike, but this was to covertly political, so I criticise them for
:37:56. > :38:01.that. Do we need a better way of monitoring the police? We need a
:38:02. > :38:07.more competent and properly resourced Independent police
:38:08. > :38:11.commission. But if you look at those Bravery Awards, every police
:38:12. > :38:18.officer, every year, who acts with bravery... That is the police force
:38:19. > :38:24.we want to believe in. That is the police force you have got. We will
:38:25. > :38:27.leave it there. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be speaking
:38:28. > :38:38.to former Lib Minister Jeremy Browne. And in The Week Ahead,
:38:39. > :38:44.Hello, I'm Martyn Oates. Coming up on the Sunday Politics in the
:38:45. > :38:48.Southwest: No hogwash, I hope, but we will be talking pigs with this
:38:49. > :38:52.expert who is now the farming Minister. Well, George Eustice, new
:38:53. > :38:55.DEFRA minister and pig breeder, is here in our mud`free studio
:38:56. > :39:14.alongside my other guest this week, the Labour councillor Rosie Denham.
:39:15. > :39:18.Welcome to you both. We're kicking off with petrol prices. There had
:39:19. > :39:22.been high hopes in the region that the government would recommend parts
:39:23. > :39:25.of Devon and Cornwall for the rural fuel rebate, which knocks five pence
:39:26. > :39:28.off a litre of petrol. Until Friday, that is, when ministers announced
:39:29. > :39:37.they were only seeking EU approval for Lynton in Devon. It is clear to
:39:38. > :39:40.see there was an expectation this would not boil down to one single
:39:41. > :39:48.town in the Hall of Devon and Cornwall? I am disappointed.
:39:49. > :39:54.Cornwall would have hoped to have one of the tones down here
:39:55. > :39:58.designated as well. They were looking at very isolated areas and
:39:59. > :40:03.we are the costs were consistently much, much higher than the national
:40:04. > :40:15.average. The rules were stripped, but couldn't they have contained
:40:16. > :40:19.expectations are bit? `` strict. Andrew George said he expected more.
:40:20. > :40:28.It was the pilot in the Isles of Scilly. It is never easy. We have
:40:29. > :40:35.also got to recognise what the government has done. We have frozen
:40:36. > :40:39.fuel duty every year since we have been in power. George Osborne says
:40:40. > :40:46.he will freeze fuel duty right up until the next election. That has
:40:47. > :40:53.taken around 10% off of what these prices would have been. Danny
:40:54. > :41:01.Alexander said today I would like a longer list of pounds benefiting
:41:02. > :41:09.from this. Labour, in all the years in government, did nothing about
:41:10. > :41:15.this. I think people in these towns will see a cost of living crisis and
:41:16. > :41:18.able think is their of the government can offer? I think they
:41:19. > :41:22.will be looking to the government to come up with something more
:41:23. > :41:27.substantive. What will the government do about the fact people
:41:28. > :41:32.cannot get on the housing ladder? We still have a lot of young people out
:41:33. > :41:35.of work. What will the government do about the fact prices have been
:41:36. > :41:43.rising much, much faster than income. We will expand the debate
:41:44. > :41:46.but we must move on to flooding. Flooding has ruined countless homes
:41:47. > :41:49.in the south`west in recent years and many families are now having
:41:50. > :41:52.trouble getting flood insurance. Some have been quoted excesses of
:41:53. > :41:54.more than ?10,000. One analyst blames uncertainty over the scheme
:41:55. > :42:00.ministers promised would guarantee affordable insurance for flood
:42:01. > :42:08.victims. More on that in a moment. But first, this report from John
:42:09. > :42:15.Danks. Floods brought misery to many here last year. The drainage system
:42:16. > :42:20.in this village was overwhelmed by the amount of rain that fell. This
:42:21. > :42:27.woman who runs the village shop was one of the lucky ones. The
:42:28. > :42:34.floodwater kept all the way up here to abide here. It came to the top of
:42:35. > :42:40.the curb. It did not come across the pavement. It did not come into the
:42:41. > :42:46.shop over the year. By Cannes she was lucky until she received the
:42:47. > :42:54.renewal notice for the insurance on her shop. I would understand it if
:42:55. > :42:59.we had made a clean, but we did not make a claim, it did not even come
:43:00. > :43:06.over the pavement. This year her quote had risen to more than ?2700,
:43:07. > :43:15.the excess for flooding was an eye watering ?10,500. We really felt
:43:16. > :43:19.like we would like to close, it just was not worth being. If we had to
:43:20. > :43:27.use all the money we have in the bank for cash flow we just could not
:43:28. > :43:32.do it. We would be bankrupt. The principles agreed between the
:43:33. > :43:36.industry and government are in the process of change. Analysts believe
:43:37. > :43:42.this could be why some premiums are becoming unaffordable and excesses
:43:43. > :43:47.increasing. Ministers say the new plan means people no longer have to
:43:48. > :43:51.live in fear of being uninsurable. Under the plans household insurers
:43:52. > :43:59.would be into a fund which would cover the cost. Premiums would
:44:00. > :44:03.become more competitive for those in high`risk homes by bidders still
:44:04. > :44:13.concerned some insurers would try to charge high excesses. This woman got
:44:14. > :44:16.a better policy with someone else. She may however face a similar
:44:17. > :44:25.struggle when her policy comes up for we knew all next year. ``
:44:26. > :44:28.renewal. John Danks reporting. One charity which helps flood victims
:44:29. > :44:32.who are struggling to get insurance says it has seen a rise in calls to
:44:33. > :44:35.its helpline. Earlier, I asked the National Flood Forum's Paul Cobbing
:44:36. > :44:38.to explain why. When people are buying and selling houses it may
:44:39. > :44:43.well be that solicitors are doing searches on flood risk. Some of the
:44:44. > :44:50.other aspects of that, in terms of premiums, these have been around
:44:51. > :44:55.insurance companies are appealing for what was going to be the end of
:44:56. > :45:00.the statement of principles. Eight macro when you see was going to be,
:45:01. > :45:06.you are suggesting the transition will not happen as the government
:45:07. > :45:13.says it will? There were proposals made in July which we approve of.
:45:14. > :45:18.The government says it is getting people peace of mind a deal that
:45:19. > :45:26.will guarantee affordable flood insurance, that sounds concrete. We
:45:27. > :45:31.have got a proposal in principle. We have a detailed negotiation going on
:45:32. > :45:37.to secure that deal. If it goes through, as stated, it will be
:45:38. > :45:42.really good. Unlike now, where the current arrangements cover access to
:45:43. > :45:46.insurance but not affordability, these new arrangements will cover
:45:47. > :45:51.affordability. The issues are that it is not guaranteed and will be a
:45:52. > :45:59.deal. It is significant because part of the deal lies `` relies on state
:46:00. > :46:03.aid approval from The European Commission. That is significant.
:46:04. > :46:08.There are some big cash flows for the insurance industry that need
:46:09. > :46:12.agreed. We have to make sure this is something they whole insurance
:46:13. > :46:17.industry can buy into. They have agreed in principle but significant
:46:18. > :46:28.details need sorted. What happens otherwise? There is a plan B which
:46:29. > :46:32.the industry will not like either. That is a regulated arrangement
:46:33. > :46:35.whereby insurance companies are required to offer flood risk
:46:36. > :46:40.insurance at affordable rates to householders. Because the insurance
:46:41. > :46:47.industry really does not want that, nor does government, the pressure is
:46:48. > :46:51.on to make this deal work. At the moment we have a temporary extension
:46:52. > :46:57.to the statement of principles. I'll be seeing this problem at the
:46:58. > :47:02.moment? When I talk to insurance companies they all tell me that the
:47:03. > :47:08.household insurance market is very, very competitive. The margins on it
:47:09. > :47:23.are very small and they actually sometimes make losses. That is part
:47:24. > :47:25.of insurance. I think what they are probably doing is making adjustments
:47:26. > :47:29.to true market conditions. This does not help people who are trying to
:47:30. > :47:33.ensure their homes. Paul Cobbing from the National Flood Forum
:47:34. > :47:39.talking to me earlier. This seems a worrying conflict of opinion. DEFRA
:47:40. > :47:43.say affordable flood insurance will be guaranteed that he is suggesting
:47:44. > :47:49.that is far from the case in reality. It is the case it will be
:47:50. > :47:53.guaranteed. The statement of principles we have had for the last
:47:54. > :48:00.few years has helped people get insurance but it is not a perfect
:48:01. > :48:07.long`term insurance situation. How big are the obstacles? There was an
:48:08. > :48:13.agreement this summer which will now take cheap with the Water Bill which
:48:14. > :48:21.is imminent. You are seeing this will definitely happen? That is
:48:22. > :48:27.right. There will be elements in the Water Bill which relate to this
:48:28. > :48:33.agreement. All insurance `` all insurers will pay into it and charge
:48:34. > :48:41.a small levy from all of their customers to make sure there is a
:48:42. > :48:51.pool of money to pay for these high`risk homes. It was a
:48:52. > :48:55.complicated negotiation. I think officials would have been looking in
:48:56. > :48:59.great detail and they are confident they have managed to find a way of
:49:00. > :49:08.addressing concerns. This is a solution, a better solution than the
:49:09. > :49:13.statement of principles. Until then, the statement of principles
:49:14. > :49:19.will continue. So I guarantee from the Minister, presumably Labour
:49:20. > :49:26.would be in the same position, how would you have handled this? When
:49:27. > :49:29.this government came in the knew the statement of principles Woodend and
:49:30. > :49:36.would run out. Here we are three years later with an extension
:49:37. > :49:41.because the government has not actually taken the initiative to
:49:42. > :49:49.sort this out earlier. Would you have this scheme kneeled down? I am
:49:50. > :49:54.not sure it is kneeled down. In August it was questioned whether the
:49:55. > :49:58.amount set aside took into account climate changed and the increase in
:49:59. > :50:10.properties which might become under risk which are not in `` at risk
:50:11. > :50:15.just now. We have dealt with concerns. The worst concern about
:50:16. > :50:20.climate change is that there might be one overwhelming incident which
:50:21. > :50:24.would overwhelm this fund. The government stands behind the insurer
:50:25. > :50:31.as a last resort in really extreme situations. There will be some
:50:32. > :50:37.backstop reserve powers. We would not want to use those, we want the
:50:38. > :50:41.system to work. There will be some backstop reserve powers to compel
:50:42. > :50:49.insurers to do these things if they will not voluntarily take part. Like
:50:50. > :50:52.Mark The fox hunting debate was rekindled this week when the Prime
:50:53. > :50:55.Minister's spokesman said he had sympathy with people who want the
:50:56. > :50:58.rules of the hunting ban relaxed. Hill farmers say fox attacks on
:50:59. > :51:02.lambs are increasing and they need more freedom to control nuisance
:51:03. > :51:06.foxes. But opponents say it is an attempt to get a full repeal of the
:51:07. > :51:08.ban by the back door. This report from Tamsin Melville contains images
:51:09. > :51:21.which some viewers may find upsetting. This man has farmed these
:51:22. > :51:30.dark more films for 25 years. It is a tough way to make a living
:51:31. > :51:36.excesses they are at risk from foxes. As long as man has been here
:51:37. > :51:44.foxes have been a problem and we have to control them. If we have a
:51:45. > :51:50.problem at lambing time and we try to shoot foxes with ?2 in a needy
:51:51. > :51:57.alike that it is crazy. The early hundred acres of forestry. It is
:51:58. > :52:06.totally impractical. `` they are 200 acres of forestry. One hound is
:52:07. > :52:16.completely insignificant, with to be any better? Farmers in Wales have
:52:17. > :52:28.produced evidence that shows attacks on lands from foxes is an increasing
:52:29. > :52:39.problem. They say that a pack of hounds are better than two dogs to
:52:40. > :52:43.flush foxes out. The maths does not stack up in terms of the House of
:52:44. > :52:51.Commons vote for a repeal so they are trying a back door attempt
:52:52. > :52:54.weakened the hunting act. The Prime Minister has previously indicated a
:52:55. > :52:58.free vote on the hunting with dogs and would take place before the next
:52:59. > :53:05.general election. This remains uncertain. This week he was said to
:53:06. > :53:12.have sympathy with the specific issue of pest control. Some say this
:53:13. > :53:16.is about the impact the hunting act is having on their livelihoods in
:53:17. > :53:23.some of the most marginal farmland in the country. We asked of the
:53:24. > :53:28.South West MPs if they would support a listing of the two dogs limit. All
:53:29. > :53:33.the conservatives who responded said they would, including one who has
:53:34. > :53:37.previously expressed doubts about removing the ban completely. There
:53:38. > :53:44.are warnings about taking this direction. I am sure MPs are weird
:53:45. > :53:51.of their constituents feelings on this issue. It is a brave MP who
:53:52. > :53:58.flies in the face of the majority of the constituents views. This farmer
:53:59. > :54:04.insists it is not about politics but the realities of hill farming. We
:54:05. > :54:12.have got to do whatever and they act as it is just now just makes it more
:54:13. > :54:16.difficult. With the issue of hunting have improved so controversial in
:54:17. > :54:20.the past, even hunt supporters are warning the Prime Minister should,
:54:21. > :54:27.for now at least, let sleeping dogs lie. We are joined now by a member
:54:28. > :54:33.of the countryside Alliance. You would like to see a full return to
:54:34. > :54:43.hunting with dogs. This realisation would be a significant move in that
:54:44. > :54:52.direction? It will not make much difference, this amendment. You
:54:53. > :54:55.could flush it then shoot the fox? This is more about shooting foxes
:54:56. > :55:05.than hunting them. This proposed amendment will allow dogs or hounds
:55:06. > :55:11.to flush foxes to guns. This is different to how it was prior to the
:55:12. > :55:18.act. For the vast majority of packs of hounds they will continue to hunt
:55:19. > :55:22.trails as they have always done. The impact on Upland farming from
:55:23. > :55:26.destruction from foxes, they must be able to do something about it. The
:55:27. > :55:32.recent survey that took place in Scotland showed that by using more
:55:33. > :55:37.hounds or blog stand the two that are allowed at the moment needed
:55:38. > :55:42.twice as effective in controlling foxes. Anyone who has an interest in
:55:43. > :55:45.animal welfare will accept that hill farmers have got to have a
:55:46. > :55:52.successful method they can use to control foxes. This proposed
:55:53. > :55:56.amendment will help them hugely. You would not see this as a move to
:55:57. > :56:03.return to full hunting? It is not, it is about flushing foxes to shoot
:56:04. > :56:12.them effectively, not about hunting with dogs. Like macro would you like
:56:13. > :56:21.to see a free vote on repealing the ban? Hunting is not up here with the
:56:22. > :56:27.government priorities. They have lots of things to deal with. We
:56:28. > :56:32.would like it to happen but we are realistic that it is unlikely. This
:56:33. > :56:37.proposed amendment is certainly going to help farmers. We support
:56:38. > :56:41.farmers and we would hope that the government would seize this
:56:42. > :56:47.initiative to push this amendment through and help our farming
:56:48. > :56:52.community. You shoot the sympathy of the Prime Minister? Theory is
:56:53. > :56:59.anecdotal evidence there has been a big increase in attacks on lands by
:57:00. > :57:04.foxes. `` the is anecdotal evidence. Dealers also a difference between
:57:05. > :57:14.the law in Scotland this is allowed. `` David is also a difference.
:57:15. > :57:20.They'd is also evidence this is about protecting lands. It is
:57:21. > :57:23.something we would look at. It is highly unlikely in this parliament
:57:24. > :57:33.that it would be a bill to repeal the hunting act. Parliament is quite
:57:34. > :57:39.divided on the issue. Would you not have the vote because you think you
:57:40. > :57:44.might lose it? Government generally do not bring forward legislation
:57:45. > :57:48.they have no hope of winning. This is a specialist issue about helping
:57:49. > :57:56.Welsh farmers. We will look at the report. You do have to control
:57:57. > :58:00.wildlife population. It is often said that Tony Blair said one of the
:58:01. > :58:04.things he regretted in office was seeing through the hunting ban. Do
:58:05. > :58:11.you think this argument is a good idea? I think I would share the
:58:12. > :58:15.concerns that a lot of people do shield which is about exactly what
:58:16. > :58:19.is being proposed here and whether it would lead in future down towards
:58:20. > :58:26.the slow repealing the hunting ban. That is not something most of the
:58:27. > :58:38.people `` population want to see. Now our regular round`up of the
:58:39. > :58:42.political week in 60 seconds. The number of badgers killed in the
:58:43. > :58:51.Gloucestershire pilot Carl Phil massively short of the government's
:58:52. > :59:00.TB tackling target. `` fell short. Animal abusers should face stiffer
:59:01. > :59:04.sentences says one Torbay MP. At the moment it is only six months and I
:59:05. > :59:10.think a year or two would be more appropriate. Calls for pics will to
:59:11. > :59:18.be legalised again, and after the foot and mouth outbreak. This is a
:59:19. > :59:24.way of addressing a major source of waste going into the waste stream.
:59:25. > :59:33.And plans for Cornish devolution double. May sometime in the future,
:59:34. > :59:39.possibly never, can I be insured that in terms of devolving greater
:59:40. > :59:46.powers to the people of Cornwall is something that will come from the
:59:47. > :59:51.dispatch box? It was good fun to see you bear with the pics, there is an
:59:52. > :00:03.argument for bringing back pics will as good nourishing food for animals
:00:04. > :00:08.and to prevent waste. The foot and mouth disease and the crisis we had
:00:09. > :00:12.ten years ago was devastating to British agriculture. It was a
:00:13. > :00:17.tragedy for our industry. We do not want to take any risks. We have to
:00:18. > :00:22.be very cautious about changing the rules. There are other things to
:00:23. > :00:32.deal with waste, anaerobic digester and, reducing electricity from food
:00:33. > :00:36.waste. You will probably not be interested in things like you will
:00:37. > :00:44.be very interested in waste disposal, what do you think? We have
:00:45. > :00:48.always to look at ways we can dispose of waste, particularly
:00:49. > :00:55.household food waste. Any proposals which come forward should be looked
:00:56. > :01:00.at in a scientific way. So you might consider this being the visited? I
:01:01. > :01:06.am interested to see the proposals but I would share the concerns about
:01:07. > :01:10.opening us up to unnecessary risks. I would be willing to look at
:01:11. > :01:18.evidence but I would take a lot of persuading that we should take any
:01:19. > :01:24.risks. Thank you for joining me. We did not quite get onto badgers. We
:01:25. > :01:33.will be down immigration, but not in any way
:01:34. > :01:34.which links in with this. Thank you to both of you for being my guests
:01:35. > :01:49.today. Are the Lib Dems like a wonky
:01:50. > :01:55.shopping trolley? Why is Nick Clegg kicking off over free schools? And
:01:56. > :02:01.what about Boris and George's love bombing of China? All questions for
:02:02. > :02:05.The Week Ahead. We are joined now by the former Home Office minister and
:02:06. > :02:14.Liberal Democrat MP Jeremy Browne. Jeremy Browne, let me ask you this
:02:15. > :02:17.key question - ??GAPNEXT who is in the ascendancy in your party, those
:02:18. > :02:23.who would fear to the left, or those who would fear to the centre? The
:02:24. > :02:28.point I was making in the interview that I gave to the times was that I
:02:29. > :02:39.want us to be unambiguously and on up genetically -- and
:02:40. > :02:44.unapologetically a Liberal party. I do not want us to be craving the
:02:45. > :02:48.approval of columnists like Polly Toynbee. I do not want us to be a
:02:49. > :02:53.pale imitation of the Labour Party. I think we should be proud and
:02:54. > :02:58.unambiguously a authentic Liberal party. That is my ambition for the
:02:59. > :03:02.party. If it is, as you put it, fearing to the left, then I think
:03:03. > :03:08.that is a mistake, I think we should be on the liberal centre ground But
:03:09. > :03:12.is it actually veering to the left, your party? I think there is a
:03:13. > :03:18.danger when a party, or any organisation, feels that it is in a
:03:19. > :03:26.difficult position, to look inwards, to look for reassuring
:03:27. > :03:30.familiar policy positions. I do not want us to be the party which looks
:03:31. > :03:34.inwards and speaks to the 9% of people who are minded to support us
:03:35. > :03:38.already. I want us to look outwards and speak to the 91% of the
:03:39. > :03:41.population, for whom I think we have got a good story to tell about the
:03:42. > :03:45.contribution we have made to getting the deficit down, cutting crime
:03:46. > :03:50.keeping interest rates low, and also, distinctive Liberal Democrat
:03:51. > :03:55.policies for example on income tax and pupil premiums. If we look like
:03:56. > :03:59.we are a party which is uneasy and ambivalent about our role in
:04:00. > :04:02.government, people will not give us credit for the successes of the
:04:03. > :04:05.government, and we will not be able to claim the authorship which we
:04:06. > :04:09.should be able to claim for our policies excesses in government I
:04:10. > :04:16.want us to be confident, outward looking, and authentically liberal.
:04:17. > :04:20.If we are that, people real sense that and they will respond
:04:21. > :04:23.positively. Does that not therefore make it rather strange that Nick
:04:24. > :04:30.Craig should choose to distance himself from the coalition's schools
:04:31. > :04:40.policy? Well, I support free schools, I think they are a liberal
:04:41. > :04:44.policy. Education is a fascinating area, so let's explore it a bit We
:04:45. > :04:48.have had two very significant and troubling reports in the last
:04:49. > :04:51.fortnight, one from Alan Milburn, saying that social mobility has
:04:52. > :04:55.stalled in this country, in other words, what your parents do is a
:04:56. > :05:00.reliable guide to how you will get on in life and the other saying that
:05:01. > :05:02.Britain lags behind our competitors, the other
:05:03. > :05:07.industrialised countries, in terms of the educational attainment of
:05:08. > :05:11.15-year-olds. Both of those are worrying. We have a scandalous
:05:12. > :05:13.situation in this country where two thirds of children from
:05:14. > :05:23.disadvantaged backgrounds are failing to get five Grade A to Grade
:05:24. > :05:27.C. Some get none at all. If we were the world leaders in education, we
:05:28. > :05:30.could have an interesting conversation about how we are able
:05:31. > :05:33.to maintain that position, but we are not. Whether there are good
:05:34. > :05:38.things one less good things which have happened in our schools over
:05:39. > :05:43.the last 30-40 years, we really need to raise our game and stop letting
:05:44. > :05:45.young people down who need a good quality education in order to
:05:46. > :05:52.realise their full potential in life. It sounds like you do not
:05:53. > :05:57.share Mr Clegg's designations? I think there are two big dangers for
:05:58. > :06:02.us as a party. I do not think we should be instinctively statist and
:06:03. > :06:06.I do not think either we should be instinctively in favour of the
:06:07. > :06:11.status quo. I want us to have a restless, radical, energetic,
:06:12. > :06:13.liberal reforming instinct, which is about putting more power and
:06:14. > :06:19.responsible at the end opportunity in the hands of individual people.
:06:20. > :06:22.As I say, we look at the education system, of course there are good
:06:23. > :06:26.teachers and good outcomes in some schools and for some pupils,
:06:27. > :06:30.overall, our performance in this country is not good enough, so the
:06:31. > :06:42.status quo has not been a successful stop I am interested in how we can
:06:43. > :06:48.innovate. -- has not been a success. Are the Tories wooing you? Well I
:06:49. > :06:55.do not know if that is the right word, I have been reported, and I
:06:56. > :07:00.have set myself, that the Conservatives have, if you like
:07:01. > :07:04.made some advances or generous suggestions to me, but I am a
:07:05. > :07:08.liberal, and I am a Liberal Democrat. I have been a member of
:07:09. > :07:12.the Lib Dems since the party was founded, I joined when I was 18
:07:13. > :07:17.years old. I have campaigned tirelessly for the Liberal Democrats
:07:18. > :07:20.for my entire adult life, so I am not about to go and join another
:07:21. > :07:28.political party. I would turn this on its head, let me put it like
:07:29. > :07:30.this, I think there are quite a few liberals in the other political
:07:31. > :07:34.parties, people like Alan Milburn, who wrote a report on social
:07:35. > :07:39.mobility, people like Nick Bowles in the Conservative Party. Our
:07:40. > :07:42.ambition, as Liberal Democrats, should be to attract liberals from
:07:43. > :07:53.other political parties, and no political party, to the Lib Dems.
:07:54. > :07:56.Just briefly, have you suggested that the Tories do not run a
:07:57. > :08:03.candidate against you in the next election? I have not suggested
:08:04. > :08:05.anything of the sort. The Conservatives have to make their own
:08:06. > :08:11.decisions about which candidates they select, and I will take on
:08:12. > :08:24.whoever is select it from each of the political parties. Thank you for
:08:25. > :08:27.joining us. There is a danger not from Jeremy Browne, but from Mr
:08:28. > :08:32.Clegg, in that, having been part of a coalition which has gone through
:08:33. > :08:36.an enormous squeeze in living standards for three years, it did
:08:37. > :08:40.not look like both was coming, it was being regarded overall as a
:08:41. > :08:45.failure, but now, it may be turning the corner, so why would you then
:08:46. > :08:52.start to disassociate yourself from the coalition's policies? Yes, the
:08:53. > :08:55.danger for Nick Clegg is that he makes the Liberal Democrats looked
:08:56. > :08:58.like visitors in a guesthouse, a guesthouse which is owned by the
:08:59. > :09:02.Conservatives. As you say, they were there for the three difficult years,
:09:03. > :09:06.and just at the moment when the economy seems to be coming right,
:09:07. > :09:11.and we are getting some nice growth, they seek to distance themselves. It
:09:12. > :09:14.is interesting that Jeremy Browne came out with the outrageously
:09:15. > :09:18.disloyal statement that he supported free schools statement. That is a
:09:19. > :09:22.disloyal Liberal Democrat view, but on Thursday, of course, the Liberal
:09:23. > :09:26.Democrat party was in favour of free schools, because in that statement
:09:27. > :09:29.about the Al-Madinah school, David Laws made a passionate defence about
:09:30. > :09:37.what Nick Clegg is now criticising, which is having on qualified
:09:38. > :09:42.teachers. If things are now coming right, the big risk for the Liberal
:09:43. > :09:47.Democrats always was that they would not get the credit anyway. Well if
:09:48. > :09:53.they diss associate themselves like this, they definitely will not get
:09:54. > :09:57.the credit. It depends which voters their opinion poll ratings are dire,
:09:58. > :10:01.he spoke about 9%, and sometimes it is less than that. So, where are
:10:02. > :10:07.they going to get those voters from? They have not got those
:10:08. > :10:11.anti-Iraq war voters. Is it not Mission impossible, getting Labour
:10:12. > :10:17.voters test surely the left of the Lib Dem vote is peeling off towards
:10:18. > :10:25.labour, not away from Labour? I wonder to what extent, and this
:10:26. > :10:29.might be speculation, this might be organised and arranged, that Cameron
:10:30. > :10:33.and Clegg both understand that they have groups of voters that they need
:10:34. > :10:38.to get, so they need to send messages out to different groups, it
:10:39. > :10:49.looks like a bit of a setup to me. Boris in China, along with boy
:10:50. > :10:53.George - let's have a look... Who, according to JK Rowling, was Harry
:10:54. > :11:00.Potter's first girlfriend? That s right, and she is Chinese overseas
:11:01. > :11:07.student, is that not right at Hogwarts? Actually, we are not sure
:11:08. > :11:11.it is right, she is actually from Scotland. It is not only London
:11:12. > :11:17.which has a diverse society. Putting that to one side, we are inviting
:11:18. > :11:22.the Chinese into finance our power stations, to run big banks in the
:11:23. > :11:26.cities, we are giving out more visas to them, are we right to embrace the
:11:27. > :11:31.Dragon? What worries me about the power stations then, it is 30% of
:11:32. > :11:36.investment, and it reminds me a lot of PFI, the idea that you do not
:11:37. > :11:39.want a huge investment on your balance sheet, but if somebody bails
:11:40. > :11:46.out halfway through, we cannot stop with a half finished power station.
:11:47. > :11:54.It is EDF, the French company, which will actually build it, and we will
:11:55. > :11:58.be guaranteeing the debt for them. It is extraordinary that there has
:11:59. > :12:02.been so little adverse comment after George Osborne and Boris's trip to
:12:03. > :12:12.China, and is it now really the UK Government policy, to sell Britain
:12:13. > :12:16.to the Chinese? There was a debate in government about this, as they
:12:17. > :12:20.were getting ready for the trip and there will be at some point in the
:12:21. > :12:23.next six months be a David Cameron trip to China. He has had to wait
:12:24. > :12:27.three years because they were annoyed about him meeting the Dalai
:12:28. > :12:30.llama. There were some people in the Foreign Office who were saying,
:12:31. > :12:36.fine, but tread carefully. George Osborne's view is absolutely not,
:12:37. > :12:45.get in there, I do not care about any of these problems, get stuck
:12:46. > :12:49.in. I think he is storing up five years since the financial crisis,
:12:50. > :12:53.Chinese banks are being given a special, light touch regulatory
:12:54. > :13:02.regime. What could possibly go wrong?! There is lots to see. Energy
:13:03. > :13:10.prices have continued to dominate this week. We have got the EDF deal,
:13:11. > :13:13.whereby we are going to be giving them twice the market rate for their
:13:14. > :13:22.energy. But for the coalition, all eyes are on the GDP figures. The
:13:23. > :13:24.expectation and hope is that the recovery will be stronger than the
:13:25. > :13:30.figures have suggested so far, on which basis it can influence the
:13:31. > :13:35.result of the next general election. The chief economist at the
:13:36. > :13:39.Bank of England was saying on Twitter last week that the Bank of
:13:40. > :13:43.England may now bring forward the assessment when it says, maybe we
:13:44. > :13:48.are going to have to change monetary policy, if unemployment goes below
:13:49. > :13:57.7%. And we know what that means interest rates. The Bank of England
:13:58. > :14:01.on Twitter! That is it for today. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow
:14:02. > :14:04.on BBC Two. I will be back with prime Minster 's questions on
:14:05. > :14:06.Wednesday, and of course, we will be back at 11 o'clock on BBC One next
:14:07. > :14:13.Sunday.