:00:37. > :00:43.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband's on
:00:44. > :00:48.the war path over pay day loans, your energy bill and what he calls
:00:49. > :00:52.the bedroom tax. His spinners say he's resurgent though the polls
:00:53. > :00:56.don't show it. We'll be talking to his right hand woman, Labour's
:00:57. > :01:00.Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman. From resurgent to insurgent. Nigel Farage
:01:01. > :01:01.won an award this week for being a political insurgent. We'll be
:01:02. > :01:16.talking to the UKIP leader. In the South West: The concern for
:01:17. > :01:20.jobs at Devonport Dockyard and as the council funding row continues,
:01:21. > :01:34.we ask if the Tories are losing the countryside.
:01:35. > :01:47.It is free choice. In London, the row over the super sewer rumbles on.
:01:48. > :01:51.And with me, fresh from their success at yesterday's Star Wars
:01:52. > :01:56.auditions, Darth Vader. Obi Wan Kenobi and R2D2. Congratulations on
:01:57. > :02:01.your new jobs. We'll miss you. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.
:02:02. > :02:04.First, the talks with Iran in Geneva. They ended last night
:02:05. > :02:14.without agreement despite hopes of a breakthrough. America and its allies
:02:15. > :02:17.didn't think Iran was prepared to go far enough to freeze its nuclear
:02:18. > :02:21.programme. But some progress has been made and there's to be another
:02:22. > :02:23.meeting in ten days' time, though at a lower level. The Foreign
:02:24. > :02:27.Secretary, William Hague, had this to say a little earlier. On the
:02:28. > :02:36.question of, or will it happen in the next few weeks? There is a good
:02:37. > :02:41.chance of that. We will be trying again on 20th, 21st of November and
:02:42. > :02:47.negotiators will be trying again. We will keep an enormous amount of
:02:48. > :02:55.energy and persistence behind solving this. Will that be a deal
:02:56. > :03:01.which will please everyone? No, it will not. Compromises will need to
:03:02. > :03:05.be made. I had discussions with Israeli ministers yesterday and put
:03:06. > :03:10.the case for the kind of deal we are looking
:03:11. > :03:10.the case for the kind of deal we are interests of the whole world,
:03:11. > :03:16.including interests of the whole world,
:03:17. > :03:20.the world, to reach a diplomatic agreement we can be confident in in
:03:21. > :03:25.this issue. This otherwise will threaten the world with nuclear
:03:26. > :03:28.proliferation and conflict in the future. The interesting thing about
:03:29. > :03:36.this is that it seems future. The interesting thing about
:03:37. > :03:42.prepared to go far enough over the Iraq heavy water plutonium reactor
:03:43. > :03:54.it is building. The people who took the toughest line - the French.
:03:55. > :04:01.France has always had a pretty tough line on Iran. They see it as a
:04:02. > :04:05.disruptive influence in Lebanon I am reasonably optimistic a deal will
:04:06. > :04:09.be done later this month when the talks reconvene. Western economic
:04:10. > :04:17.sanctions have had such an impact on Iran domestic league. They have
:04:18. > :04:22.pushed inflation up to 40%. Dashes-macro domestically. The new
:04:23. > :04:30.president had a campaign pledge saying, I will deal with sanctions.
:04:31. > :04:37.I actually think, by the end of this year, we will see progress in these
:04:38. > :04:45.talks. Should we be optimistic? The next round of talks will be at
:04:46. > :04:50.official level. The place to watch will be Israel. The language which
:04:51. > :04:55.has been coming out of there is still incredibly angry, incredibly
:04:56. > :05:05.defensive. They do not want a deal at all. Presumably John Kerry has to
:05:06. > :05:14.go away and tried to get Israel to be quiet about it, even if they
:05:15. > :05:23.cannot be happy about it. They cannot agree to a deal which allows
:05:24. > :05:28.the Iraq reactor with plutonium heavy water. You do not need that
:05:29. > :05:35.with a peaceful nuclear power programme will stop that is why the
:05:36. > :05:43.Israelis are so nervous. If there is an international deal, Israel could
:05:44. > :05:50.still bomb that but it would be impossible. The French tactics are
:05:51. > :05:54.interesting. It says the French blocked it in part because they are
:05:55. > :06:00.trying to carry favour with Israel but also the Gulf Arab states, who
:06:01. > :06:06.are really nervous about and Iranians nuclear capability. Who is
:06:07. > :06:12.that? Saudi Arabia. Newsnight had a story saying that Pakistan is
:06:13. > :06:20.prepared to provide them with nuclear weapons. You are right about
:06:21. > :06:26.Saudi Arabia. They are much more against this deal than Israel. Who
:06:27. > :06:30.is Herman van Rompuy's favourite MEP? It is probably not Nigel
:06:31. > :06:33.Farage. He plummeted to the bottom of the EU president's Christmas card
:06:34. > :06:37.list after comparing him to a bank clerk with the charisma of a damp
:06:38. > :06:46.rag. And he's been at it again this week. Have a look. Today is November
:06:47. > :06:51.the 5th, a big celebration festival day in England. That was an attempt
:06:52. > :06:54.to blow up the Houses of Parliament with dynamite and destroy the
:06:55. > :07:01.Constitution. You have taken the Dahl, technocratic approach to all
:07:02. > :07:06.of these things. What you and your colleagues save time and again you
:07:07. > :07:10.talk about initiatives and what you are going to do about unemployment.
:07:11. > :07:17.The reality is nothing in this union is getting better. The accounts have
:07:18. > :07:22.not been signed off for 18 years. I am now told it is 19 and you are
:07:23. > :07:26.doing your best to tone down any criticism. Whatever growth figures
:07:27. > :07:31.you may have, they are anaemic. Youth unemployment in the
:07:32. > :07:36.Mediterranean is over 50% in several states. You will notice there is a
:07:37. > :07:41.rise in opposition dashed real opposition. Much of it ugly
:07:42. > :07:48.opposition, not stuff that I would want to link hands with. And Nigel
:07:49. > :07:57.Farage joins me now. Let me put to you what the editor of the Sun had
:07:58. > :08:01.to say. He says, UKIP will peak at the European election and then it
:08:02. > :08:06.will begin to get marginalised as we get closer to 2015 because there is
:08:07. > :08:13.now that clear blue water between Labour and the Tories. What do you
:08:14. > :08:17.say to that? There may be layered blue water on energy pricing but on
:08:18. > :08:22.Eastern Europe, there is no difference at all. When Ed Miliband
:08:23. > :08:26.offers the referendum to match Cameron, even that argument on
:08:27. > :08:32.Europe will be gone. The one thing that will keep UKIP strong, heading
:08:33. > :08:36.towards 2015, is if people think in some constituencies we can win. I
:08:37. > :08:41.cannot sit here right now and say that will be the case. If we get
:08:42. > :08:46.over the hurdle of the European elections clearly, I think there
:08:47. > :08:53.will be grounds to say that UKIP can win seats in Westminster. You are
:08:54. > :08:59.going to run? Without a shadow of a doubt. I do not know which
:09:00. > :09:03.constituency. The welcome I got in Edinburgh was not that friendly
:09:04. > :09:08.Edinburgh is not everything in Scotland. I think we have a
:09:09. > :09:14.realistic chance of winning those elections. If we do that, we will
:09:15. > :09:19.have the momentum behind us. You might be the biggest party after the
:09:20. > :09:25.May elections. The National front is likely to do very well in France as
:09:26. > :09:30.well. They have won the crucial by-election in the South of France.
:09:31. > :09:39.Have you talked about joining full season in Parliament? The leader has
:09:40. > :09:44.tried to take the movement into a different direction than her father.
:09:45. > :09:49.The man she beat, to become leader, actually attended the BNP
:09:50. > :09:54.conference. The problem she has with her party and we have with her party
:09:55. > :09:59.is that anti-Semitism is too deep and we will not be doing a deal with
:10:00. > :10:06.the French national government. You can guarantee you will not be
:10:07. > :10:12.joining such groups. I can guarantee that. Let's move on to Europe. Let's
:10:13. > :10:17.accept that the pro-Europeans exaggerate the loss of jobs that
:10:18. > :10:25.would follow the departure of Britain from the UK. Is there no
:10:26. > :10:33.risk of jobs whatsoever? No risk whatsoever. There is no risk at all.
:10:34. > :10:40.There have been some weak and lazy arguments put around about this We
:10:41. > :10:46.will go on doing business - go on doing trade with Europe. We will
:10:47. > :10:51.have increased opportunities to do trade deals with the rest of the
:10:52. > :11:00.world and they will create jobs The head of Nissan, the head of Hitachi
:11:01. > :11:07.and CBI many other voices in British business, when they all expressed
:11:08. > :11:12.concern about the potential loss of jobs and incoming investment, we
:11:13. > :11:22.should just ignore them. With Nissan, the BBC News is making this
:11:23. > :11:29.a huge story. The boss did not say what was reported. He said there was
:11:30. > :11:34.a potential danger to his future investment. They have already made
:11:35. > :11:38.the investments. They have built the plant in Sunderland, which they say
:11:39. > :11:42.is operating well. We should be careful of what bosses of big
:11:43. > :11:47.businesses say. This man said they may have two leaves Sunderland if we
:11:48. > :11:51.did not join the euro. I do not take that seriously. As for the CBI, they
:11:52. > :11:57.wanted us to join the euro and now they do not. Even within the CBI,
:11:58. > :12:02.there is a significant minority saying, we do not agree with what
:12:03. > :12:06.the CBI director-general is saying. The former boss of the organisation
:12:07. > :12:13.is saying we need a referendum and we need a referendum soon. It
:12:14. > :12:18.depends on the renegotiation. There is not the uniformity. What we are
:12:19. > :12:23.beginning to see in the world, is, manufacturing and small businesses
:12:24. > :12:27.are a lot more voices saying, the costs of membership outweigh any
:12:28. > :12:37.potential benefit. If you look at the polls, if Mr Cameron does
:12:38. > :12:43.repatriate some powers and he joins with Labour, the Lib Dems, the
:12:44. > :12:47.Nationalists in Scotland and Wales, most of business, all of the unions
:12:48. > :12:57.to say we should stay in, you are going to lose, aren't you? In 1 75,
:12:58. > :13:00.the circumstances were exactly the same. Mr Wilson promised a
:13:01. > :13:04.renegotiation and he got very little. The establishment gathered
:13:05. > :13:10.around him and they voted for us to stay in. I do not think that will
:13:11. > :13:17.happen now. The scales have fallen. We do not want to be governed by
:13:18. > :13:20.Herman Van Rompuy and these people. These people are Eurosceptic but
:13:21. > :13:24.they do not seem to feel strongly enough about it that they are going
:13:25. > :13:31.to defy all the major parties they vote for, companies that employ
:13:32. > :13:35.them, unions they are members of. I am absolutely confident there will
:13:36. > :13:39.be a lot voices in business saying, we need to take this opportunity to
:13:40. > :13:52.break free, give ourselves a chance of a low regulation lowball trader.
:13:53. > :14:08.-- global trade. In 1970 53 small publications said to vote yes. I am
:14:09. > :14:13.not contemplating losing. The most important thing is to get the
:14:14. > :14:19.referendum. If UKIP is not strong, there will not be a referendum.
:14:20. > :14:23.Earlier in the year, your party issued a leaflet about the remaining
:14:24. > :14:29.sample parents being able to come to this country. The EU will allow 29
:14:30. > :14:39.million Bulgarians and remaining is to come to the UK. That is
:14:40. > :14:51.technically correct but we both know that is not the case. It is an open
:14:52. > :15:02.door to these people. Why take the risk? By make out there are 29
:15:03. > :15:12.million people? I stand by that verdict. It is an open door. 29
:15:13. > :15:18.million are not going to come. They can if they want. Also 29 million
:15:19. > :15:22.people from France can come. After these countries have joined, we will
:15:23. > :15:30.do another leaflet saying that Mr Cameron wants to open the door to 70
:15:31. > :15:37.million people from Turkey. That is scaremongering. I would not say
:15:38. > :15:42.that. We have a million young British workers between 16 and 4
:15:43. > :15:46.without work. A lot of them want work and we do not need another
:15:47. > :15:51.massive oversupply in the unskilled labour market. Why did you have such
:15:52. > :16:01.a bad time on question Time this week? The folk that did not buy your
:16:02. > :16:04.anti-immigration stick. Do you think that group of people in the room was
:16:05. > :16:09.representative of the voters of Boston? What would make you think it
:16:10. > :16:13.was unrepresentative? When the county council elections took place
:16:14. > :16:17.this year in Boston, of the seven seats, UKIP won five and almost won
:16:18. > :16:21.the other two. I don't think that audience reflected that, but that
:16:22. > :16:25.doesn't matter. How an audience is put together, how a panel is put
:16:26. > :16:30.together, on one programme, it doesn't mean much at all. It shows
:16:31. > :16:34.that your anti-immigrant measure doesn't fly as easily as you hoped
:16:35. > :16:37.it would? The opinion polls which will be launched on Monday that we
:16:38. > :16:41.are conducting and nearing completion, they show two things.
:16:42. > :16:46.Firstly, an astonishing number of people who think it's irresponsible
:16:47. > :16:51.and wrong to open the doer to Romania and Bulgaria, secondly and
:16:52. > :16:54.crucially, a number of people whose vote in the European elections and
:16:55. > :16:57.subsequent general elections may be determined by the immigration
:16:58. > :17:00.issues. This does matter. It would be the perfect run group the
:17:01. > :17:05.European elections in May for you if a lot of Bulgarians and remainians
:17:06. > :17:08.flooded in. You would like that to happen? I think it will happen.
:17:09. > :17:13.Whether I like it or not, it will happen. You think it will be good
:17:14. > :17:17.for you, it will stir things up If you say to people in poor countries,
:17:18. > :17:22.you can come here, get a job, have a safety net of a benefits system
:17:23. > :17:26.claim child allowance for your kids in Bucharest, people will come You
:17:27. > :17:32.are ready with the arguments already? You will be disappointed if
:17:33. > :17:35.only ten turn up? Whether lots come or not we should. Taking the risk
:17:36. > :17:38.and yes, we are going to make it a major issue in the European
:17:39. > :17:42.election. Let's leave it there. Thank you very much, Nigel Farage.
:17:43. > :17:46.The summer of 2013 was not good for Ed Miliband, with questions over his
:17:47. > :17:49.leadership, low ratings and complaints about no policies. He
:17:50. > :17:52.bounced back with a vengeance at the Labour Conference in September,
:17:53. > :17:57.delivering a speech which this week won the spectator political speech
:17:58. > :18:00.of the year aword. In that speech he focussed on the cost-of-living and
:18:01. > :18:05.promised a temporary freeze on energy prices. Even said this. The
:18:06. > :18:12.next election isn't just going to be about policy. It's going to be about
:18:13. > :18:19.how we lead and the character we show. I've got a message for the
:18:20. > :18:28.Tories today. If they want to have a debate, about leadership and
:18:29. > :18:32.character, be my guest And if you want to know the difference between
:18:33. > :18:37.me and David Cameron, here is an easy way to remember it. When it was
:18:38. > :18:42.Murdoch v the McCanns, he took the side of Murdoch. When it was the
:18:43. > :18:46.tobacco lobby versus the cancer charities, he took the side of the
:18:47. > :18:51.tobacco lobby. When the millionaires wanted a tax cut as people pay the
:18:52. > :18:54.bedroom tax, he took the side of the millionaires. A come to think of it,
:18:55. > :18:57.here is an easier way to remember it. David Cameron was a Prime
:18:58. > :19:07.Minister who introduced the bedroom tax. I'll be the Prime Minister who
:19:08. > :19:13.repeals the bedroom tax There we go, that will go down with the party
:19:14. > :19:18.faithful on Tuesday. There will be a debate on the bedroom tax. Labour's
:19:19. > :19:26.Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman, joints me now. Let's begin with the
:19:27. > :19:32.bedroom tax or bedroom subsidy. Nearly 11% of people who've come off
:19:33. > :19:35.Housing Benefits all together after their spare room subsidy was
:19:36. > :19:40.stopped, isn't that proof that reform was necessary? No. I think
:19:41. > :19:44.that the whole way that the bet room tax has been attempted to be
:19:45. > :19:48.justified is completely wrong. What it's said is that it will actually
:19:49. > :19:53.help take people off the waiting lists by putting them into homes
:19:54. > :19:57.that have been vacated by people who've downsized by being
:19:58. > :20:01.incentivised by the bedroom tax so basically if you are a council
:20:02. > :20:05.tenant or Housing Association tenant in a property with spare bedrooms,
:20:06. > :20:09.then because the penalty is imposed, you will move to a smaller property.
:20:10. > :20:13.That is the justification for it. But actually, something like 96 of
:20:14. > :20:16.the people who're going to be hit by the bedroom tax, there isn't a
:20:17. > :20:20.smaller property for them to move into. I understand that. Therefore
:20:21. > :20:24.they are, like the people in my constituency, if they have got one
:20:25. > :20:30.spare bedroom, they are hit by 700 a year extra to pay and that is
:20:31. > :20:35.completely unfair As a consequence of people losing the subsidy for
:20:36. > :20:39.their spare room, they have decided to go out and get work and not
:20:40. > :20:43.depend on Housing Benefit at all? 11% of them. What's wrong with that?
:20:44. > :20:49.Well, they are going to review the way 2 the bedroom tax is working.
:20:50. > :20:54.What is wrong with that? But that's not working. That's the result of
:20:55. > :20:58.Freedom of Information, 141 councils provided the figures, 25,000 who've
:20:59. > :21:02.come off benefits, of the 233,0 0 affected, it's about 11%. These
:21:03. > :21:06.people were clearly able to get a job was having the Housing Benefit
:21:07. > :21:11.in the first place? But of course the people who're on the benefits
:21:12. > :21:14.who're not in work are always looking for work and many of them
:21:15. > :21:19.will find work which is a good thing, but for those who don't find
:21:20. > :21:23.work, or who find work where it s low-paid and need help with their
:21:24. > :21:27.rent, it's wrong to penalise them on the basis of the fact that their
:21:28. > :21:31.family might have grown up and moved away and so you have either got to
:21:32. > :21:35.move out of your home, away from your family and your neighbourhood,
:21:36. > :21:39.or you've got to stay where you are and, despite the fact that you are
:21:40. > :21:44.low-paid or unemployed, you have got to find an extra ?700 a year because
:21:45. > :21:47.of your rent. So it's very unfair The Government that was
:21:48. > :21:51.commissioning independent research on the impact of this work change
:21:52. > :21:54.and welfare policy, particularly on the impact on the most vulnerable,
:21:55. > :21:58.some of which you have been talking about there, shouldn't they have
:21:59. > :22:01.waited until you have got the independent research, that
:22:02. > :22:04.independent investigation before determining your policy? No. In
:22:05. > :22:09.fact, the Government should have waited until they'd have done their
:22:10. > :22:12.independent research before they bought into effect something and
:22:13. > :22:18.imposed it on people in a way which is really unfair. They could have
:22:19. > :22:22.known. Why didn't you wait? What they could have done is, they could
:22:23. > :22:27.have asked councils, are people going to be able to Manifest into
:22:28. > :22:30.smaller homes if we impose the bedroom tax and the answer from
:22:31. > :22:33.councils and Housing Associations would have been no, they can't move
:22:34. > :22:37.into smaller homes because which haven't got them there. They should
:22:38. > :22:40.have done the evaluation before they introduced the policy. We are
:22:41. > :22:44.absolutely clear and you can see the evidence, people are falling into
:22:45. > :22:48.rent arrears. Many people, it's a terrifying thing to find that you
:22:49. > :22:53.can't pay your rent, and some of the people go to payday loan companies
:22:54. > :22:57.to get loans to pay their rent. It is very, very unfair. The
:22:58. > :23:01.justification for it, which is people will move, is completely
:23:02. > :23:07.bogus. There aren't places for them to go. On the wider issue of welfare
:23:08. > :23:10.reform, a call for the TUC showed that voters support the Government's
:23:11. > :23:15.welfare reforms, including a majority of Labour voters. Why are
:23:16. > :23:18.you so out of touch on welfare issues, even with your own
:23:19. > :23:22.supporters? Nobody wants to see people who could be in a job
:23:23. > :23:26.actually living at the taxpayers' expense. That's why we have said
:23:27. > :23:30.that we'll introduce a compulsory jobs guarantee, so that if you are a
:23:31. > :23:34.young person who's been unemployed for a year, you will have to take a
:23:35. > :23:38.job absolutely have to take a job, and if you have been unemployed as
:23:39. > :23:43.somebody over 25, there'll be a compulsory thing after two years of
:23:44. > :23:47.unemployment. So if you have been on welfare two years? So the main issue
:23:48. > :23:51.about the welfare bill actually is people who're in retirement who need
:23:52. > :23:55.support. We have said for the richest pensioners, they shouldn't
:23:56. > :24:00.have to pay their winter fuel allowance. My point wasn't abouts
:24:01. > :24:04.the sub stance, it's about how you don't reflect public opinion --
:24:05. > :24:09.substance. The Parliamentary aid said the political backlog of
:24:10. > :24:14.benefits and social security is "not yet one that we have won. Labour
:24:15. > :24:19.must accept that they are not convincing on these matters,". Well,
:24:20. > :24:23.redo have to convince people and explain the policies we have got and
:24:24. > :24:26.the view we take. So, for example, for pensioners, who're well off we
:24:27. > :24:29.are saying they don't need the Winter Fuel Payment that. 's me
:24:30. > :24:34.saying to you and us saying to people in this country, we do think
:24:35. > :24:38.that there should be that tightening. For young people, who've
:24:39. > :24:41.been unemployed, they should be offered jobs but they've got to take
:24:42. > :24:47.them. So yes, we have to make our case. OK. The energy freeze which we
:24:48. > :24:51.showed there, on the speech, as popular. The living wage proseles
:24:52. > :24:55.have been going down well as well. Why is Labour's lead oaf the
:24:56. > :24:59.Conservatives being cut to 6% in the latest polls? Ed Miliband's own
:25:00. > :25:04.personal approval rating's gotten worse. Why is that? I'm not going to
:25:05. > :25:08.disdues ins and outs of weekly opinion polls with you or anybody
:25:09. > :25:12.else because I'm not a political commentator, but let me say to you
:25:13. > :25:17.the facts of what's happened since Ed Miliband's been leader of the
:25:18. > :25:24.Labour Party. We have got 1,950 New Labour councillors, all of those...
:25:25. > :25:25.But you're... All those who've won their seats against the
:25:26. > :25:30.Conservatives or the Liberal Democrats and no, Andrew you don't
:25:31. > :25:35.always get that in opposition. In 1997 after Tony Blair was elected,
:25:36. > :25:41.the Tories carried on losing council seats. Exceptional circumstances and
:25:42. > :25:47.these days Mr Blair was 25% ahead in the polls. You were six. The economy
:25:48. > :25:51.grew at an annual rate of 3% in the third quarter just gone. Everybody,
:25:52. > :25:54.private and public forecasters now saying that Britain in this coming
:25:55. > :25:59.year will grow faster than France, Italy, Spain, even Germany will grow
:26:00. > :26:02.faster. Your poll ratings are average when the economy was
:26:03. > :26:06.flatlining, what happens to them when the economy starts to grow
:26:07. > :26:11.Well, I've just said to you, I'm not a political commentator or a pundit
:26:12. > :26:14.on opinion polls. We are putting policies forward and we are holding
:26:15. > :26:19.the Government to account for what they are doing and we think that
:26:20. > :26:22.what they did opt economy pulled the plugs from the economy, delayed the
:26:23. > :26:26.recovery, made it stagnate and we have had three years lost growth. I
:26:27. > :26:33.understand that, but it's now starting to grow. Indeed. If you are
:26:34. > :26:36.no political commentator, let me ask you this, you anticipated the
:26:37. > :26:40.growth, so you switched your line to no growth to this is growth and
:26:41. > :26:44.living standards are rising. If the economy does grow up towards 3% next
:26:45. > :26:47.year, I would suggest that living standards probably will start to
:26:48. > :26:51.rise with that amount of growth What do you do then? We have not
:26:52. > :26:54.switched our line because the economy started to grow. All the way
:26:55. > :26:59.along, we said the economy will recover, but it's been delayed and
:27:00. > :27:03.we have had stagnation for far too long because of the economic
:27:04. > :27:07.policies. We have been absolutely right to understand the concerns
:27:08. > :27:11.people have and recognise that they are struggling with the
:27:12. > :27:15.cost-of-living. Sure. And we are right to do that. What kind of
:27:16. > :27:21.living standards stuck to rise next year? -- start to rise next year. I
:27:22. > :27:25.hope they will. For 40 months of David Cameron's Prime Ministership,
:27:26. > :27:28.for 39 of those, wages have risen slower than prices, so people are
:27:29. > :27:33.worse off. I understand that. You will know that the broader
:27:34. > :27:36.measurement, real household disposable income doesn't show that
:27:37. > :27:41.decline because it takes everything into account. Going around the
:27:42. > :27:47.country, people feel it. They say where's the recovery for me. Living
:27:48. > :27:51.standards now start to rise? If that happens, what is your next line
:27:52. > :27:54.There is a set of arguments about living standards, the National
:27:55. > :28:00.Health Service, about the problems that there is in A, which caused
:28:01. > :28:05.-- are caused by the organisation. I can put forward other lines. All
:28:06. > :28:11.right. Let me ask you one other question If no newspapers have
:28:12. > :28:14.signed up to the Government-backed Labour-backed Royal Charter on press
:28:15. > :28:20.regular lace by 2015 and it looks like the way things are going none
:28:21. > :28:23.will have, if you are in power, will a Labour Government legislate to
:28:24. > :28:27.make them? They don't have to sign up to the Royal Charter, that's not
:28:28. > :28:31.the system. What the Royal Charter does is create a recogniser and
:28:32. > :28:34.basically says it's for the newspapers to set up their own
:28:35. > :28:39.regulator. They are doing that. My question is... Let me finish. If
:28:40. > :28:43.they decide to have nothing to do with the Royal Charter that was
:28:44. > :28:47.decided in Miliband's office in the wee small hours, will you pass
:28:48. > :28:50.legislation to make them? The newspapers are currently setting up
:28:51. > :28:55.what they call... I know that, Harriet Harman. Just let me finish.
:28:56. > :28:59.OK. Because the newspapers are setting up the independent Press
:29:00. > :29:03.Standards Organisation. Right. If it is independent, as they say it is,
:29:04. > :29:07.then the recogniser will simply say, we recognise that this is
:29:08. > :29:11.independent and the whole point is that, in the past when there's been
:29:12. > :29:14.skaen deals a tend press have really turned people's lives upside down
:29:15. > :29:19.and the press have said OK we'll sort things out, leave it to us
:29:20. > :29:23.then they have sorted things out but a few years later they have slipped
:29:24. > :29:27.back, all this recogniser will do is check it once every three years and
:29:28. > :29:31.say yes, you have got an independent system and it's remained independent
:29:32. > :29:35.and therefore that is the guarantee things won't slip back. Very
:29:36. > :29:39.interesting. Thank you for that That's really interesting that if
:29:40. > :29:44.they get their act right, you won't force the alternative on them. We
:29:45. > :29:49.want the system as set forward by Leveson which is not statute and
:29:50. > :29:54.direct regulation. I want to stick with the press because I want to
:29:55. > :29:58.ask, is this a British institution or an out-of-date image for a by
:29:59. > :30:03.gone age. The Sun's Page 3 has been dividing the nation since it first
:30:04. > :30:08.appeared way back in 1970. That s 43 years ago. Harriet Harman's called
:30:09. > :30:25.for it to be removed, so we sent Adam out to ask whether the topless
:30:26. > :30:37.photographs should stay or go. We have asked people if page three
:30:38. > :30:47.should stay or go. Page three. What do you think? Nothing wrong with it
:30:48. > :30:58.at all. I think it is cheap and exploits women. It is a family
:30:59. > :31:09.newspaper. Should it stay or go Go. I will look like the bad guy. It
:31:10. > :31:18.should go. You have changed your mind. It is free choice. Girls do
:31:19. > :31:32.not have to be photographed. Old men get the paper just for that. Know
:31:33. > :31:36.when your age does that? Not really. Dashes-macro know what your age.
:31:37. > :31:47.Page three girls, should they stay or go? I am not bothered. There are
:31:48. > :31:51.other ways of getting noticed. Page three of the Sun newspaper every
:31:52. > :32:00.day, there is a woman with no top on. We got rid of that about 40
:32:01. > :32:08.years ago in Australia. I am not in favour of censorship. It has been
:32:09. > :32:13.long enough. It can stay there. What is wrong with it? We want to
:32:14. > :32:19.encourage children to read the newspapers. I do not want my
:32:20. > :32:26.children to look at that. It is degrading. Do you think we will see
:32:27. > :32:31.the day when they get rid of it? Yes, I do. I am wondering if I can
:32:32. > :32:43.turn this into some kind of a shelter. It is tipping it down. I
:32:44. > :32:48.think the council should do shelter. It is tipping it down. I
:32:49. > :32:57.something about their car parks! Mother nature, the human body. It
:32:58. > :33:03.should stay. Is some people like it, that is fine. I have nothing against
:33:04. > :33:08.it. You know what has surprised me, lots of women saying it should stay.
:33:09. > :33:15.Maybe they are seeing it as empowering. As I have a baby
:33:16. > :33:26.daughter in there, I am happy to see it go. Imagine my grandad opening up
:33:27. > :33:36.his paper and they're being my bats! It should go. There is nothing wrong
:33:37. > :33:43.with it. He wants it to go. What about people who think that page
:33:44. > :33:53.three should be banned? Idiots. Do you know a girl called Lacey, aged
:33:54. > :33:59.22, from Bedford? Good luck to her. I do not know her as a person that I
:34:00. > :34:06.have heard she is nice. What about her decision to be on page three?
:34:07. > :34:15.Nothing to lose. Do you think she has made Bedford proud? That is not
:34:16. > :34:24.hard. What have we learned? More people want page three to stay down
:34:25. > :34:30.for it to go. Most people do not really seem to care, do they? You
:34:31. > :34:36.have heard a range of views. I am not arguing it should be banned. I
:34:37. > :34:42.have not argued for it to be banned but I have disapproved of it since
:34:43. > :34:53.the 1970s. You do not think it should be banned? I do not think
:34:54. > :34:59.there should be dictating content but I do think, if you arrive from
:35:00. > :35:02.outer space in this country in 21st-century Britain, and asked
:35:03. > :35:07.yourself what was the role of women in society... To stand in their
:35:08. > :35:12.knickers and nothing else, I think women have more to aspire to than to
:35:13. > :35:22.be able to take their clothes off in public. The sun no longer has the
:35:23. > :35:27.circulation, or the political importance, that it had in the 1980s
:35:28. > :35:32.when page three was at its height. Aren't people just voting with their
:35:33. > :35:38.feet anyway? The market is sorting this out. Half the number of people
:35:39. > :35:44.buy it now than they did 20 years ago. Until the time the sun does not
:35:45. > :35:51.have page three any more, I am entitled to my view that it is
:35:52. > :36:00.outdated and wrong. I am happy to establish that you do not want to
:36:01. > :36:05.ban it. What should happen? Should people boycott the paper? I have
:36:06. > :36:12.never implied or said it should be banned. I have always been
:36:13. > :36:16.forthright. Should people boycott the paper? I have not called for a
:36:17. > :36:22.boycott. The women's movement, of which I am part, and this is not
:36:23. > :36:27.about politicians censoring the press. I am part of the movement
:36:28. > :36:34.which says women can do better than taking off their clothes and being
:36:35. > :36:40.in their knickers in the newspapers. Why don't you do something about it?
:36:41. > :36:48.I am doing something about it by saying it is outdated. I am not
:36:49. > :36:54.doing anything more about it. Should people buy the paper as long as
:36:55. > :36:58.there is a page three? Would you like to say to viewers, as long as
:36:59. > :37:07.page three is in the sand, you should not buy it? Dashes-macro be
:37:08. > :37:11.Son. I am saying, wake up to what the role of women in society should
:37:12. > :37:15.be, which is more than page three. If they changed it in Australia,
:37:16. > :37:22.which is where Rupert Murdoch came from, why can they not change it in
:37:23. > :37:26.this country? You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just
:37:27. > :37:37.over 20 minutes... I'll be talking to man leading the
:37:38. > :37:43.Hello, I'm Lucie Fisher. Coming up on the Sunday Politics in the South
:37:44. > :37:49.West: As the council funding row continues, we ask if the Tories are
:37:50. > :37:53.losing the countryside. And for the next 20 minutes, I'm
:37:54. > :37:56.joined by the Labour MP Alison Seabeck and the Lib Dem MP Adrian
:37:57. > :38:00.Sanders. Welcome both of you to the programme. Let's begin with the
:38:01. > :38:03.concern that this week's defence announcement could result in job
:38:04. > :38:06.losses at Devonport Dockyard. When it was announced last month that the
:38:07. > :38:09.survey ship HMS Protector was being moved from Portsmouth to Plymouth,
:38:10. > :38:12.the Portsmouth MP, Penny Mordaunt, argued it would make sense to move
:38:13. > :38:19.Plymouth's destroyers and frigates to her city so that Portsmouth could
:38:20. > :38:22.be the "home of the surface fleet". Well, this week Portsmouth suffered
:38:23. > :38:25.another blow with BAE's decision to end shipbuilding there and some say
:38:26. > :38:36.that's strengthened the city's case for getting its hands on Plymouth's
:38:37. > :38:40.frigates. Alison, you're not going to allow that to happen you? Know.
:38:41. > :38:51.It is unlikely at the moment. That is a good case for them based ``
:38:52. > :39:00.being based on some Internet fans in Portsmouth. The aircraft carriers
:39:01. > :39:09.have got 11,000 people working on them. You would have expected her to
:39:10. > :39:14.do it. She is the Defence Secretary's assistant so she is
:39:15. > :39:17.quite influential. You can't say that you'll get special favours
:39:18. > :39:26.because you are close to the Defence Secretary. This decision has to be
:39:27. > :39:30.taken strategically. Lots of people have been talking about this. So you
:39:31. > :39:36.don't think the concern is justified at the moment? No and we will be
:39:37. > :39:43.fighting for it as a city. Adrian, as this matter to you? `` is this
:39:44. > :39:53.matter. It affects the whole of the south`west economy. Do you think you
:39:54. > :39:57.can Avenue once? I do. If you look at it there are more MPs with an
:39:58. > :40:03.interest in Devon and Cornwall than there are within interesting
:40:04. > :40:06.Portsmouth. High petrol prices and relaxed
:40:07. > :40:09.planning rules are just two of the things on the list of issues turning
:40:10. > :40:12.rural voters away from the Tories, according to a recent poll by the
:40:13. > :40:16.Countryside Alliance. Another bugbear is the council funding gap,
:40:17. > :40:19.which was back on the agenda at Westminster this week. In a moment,
:40:20. > :40:27.we'll be joined by the rural Conservative MP Neil Parish, but
:40:28. > :40:31.first this report from Jenny Kumah. It seems the price of petrol in the
:40:32. > :40:35.countryside is causing more grief than ever. This week the petrol
:40:36. > :40:41.retailers Association revealed the increasing rate at which their
:40:42. > :40:46.members are going out of business. Motorists are feeling the squeeze. I
:40:47. > :40:56.think it is a great tragedy. The government say they support rural
:40:57. > :41:01.things but over and again you see they don't. According to a recent
:41:02. > :41:05.poll from the Countryside Alliance, petrol prices are one of many issues
:41:06. > :41:15.annoying rural voters. Others being the so`called unfair funding deals
:41:16. > :41:18.for country councils, the perceived building of wind farms because of
:41:19. > :41:25.relaxed tanning guidance and the government's failure with the
:41:26. > :41:29.hunting with dogs banned. All parties have accepted this as a
:41:30. > :41:33.dreadful piece of legislation. We think that would be one thing which
:41:34. > :41:39.would give a significant symbol to the countryside that concerns were
:41:40. > :41:44.being addressed. According to the Countryside Alliance only 66% of its
:41:45. > :41:48.members would vote Conservative if they were an election tomorrow. A
:41:49. > :41:58.drop of almost 20% in just a couple of years. While 13% would vote UKIP.
:41:59. > :42:00.Three quarters of their members feel politicians are more interested in
:42:01. > :42:06.the views and values of city dwellers. This man joined at the end
:42:07. > :42:11.conservatives in the 80s and voted for the party on the 2010 election
:42:12. > :42:16.but he now supports UKIP. This term has just proved that anybody that
:42:17. > :42:21.had a traditional conservative background was betrayed. David
:42:22. > :42:25.Cameron will say something on Friday, he'll have an opinion poll
:42:26. > :42:35.on Saturday and he will diluted on Monday. `` he will do a U`turn. I'm
:42:36. > :42:38.irritated with the way things are. He moved to Devon two years ago and
:42:39. > :42:43.says he's noticed rural councils don't seem to get a fair deal. It
:42:44. > :42:48.makes you feel terribly angry and it makes me feel that all the pledges
:42:49. > :42:55.this government makes to rural England, they are empty promises.
:42:56. > :43:00.This week MPs representing constituencies in the countryside
:43:01. > :43:03.presented a petition to the government. It calls the councils in
:43:04. > :43:09.the countryside to get a fairer share of the funding cake. A few
:43:10. > :43:13.days later, ministers said they were considering more helpful country
:43:14. > :43:17.motorists with a possible extension of the rural fuel duty discount. But
:43:18. > :43:22.on the big issue of council funding, the government has in offering
:43:23. > :43:25.little sympathy. Jenny Kumah reporting and Neil
:43:26. > :43:33.Parish joins us now from Westminster. Our UKIP becoming your
:43:34. > :43:36.biggest threat? We need to listen to what the country voters are telling
:43:37. > :43:40.us and we need to be firm in our policies. In coalition sometimes
:43:41. > :43:45.it's difficult to deliver all the robust policies you need. As far as
:43:46. > :43:48.of the hunting act is concerned they will be some amendments which were
:43:49. > :43:54.delayed. We have to deal with the wind turbines and solar farms by
:43:55. > :43:58.reducing the huge subsidies so they are not driven all across the
:43:59. > :44:03.countryside. We do need to do a lot more. You are very keen on local
:44:04. > :44:09.issues and your party came in on a wave of localism and yet it doesn't
:44:10. > :44:19.actually seem at ground level that people are feeling that. Is that
:44:20. > :44:24.frustrating? I have got parish councils with flooding is going on
:44:25. > :44:27.and planning is going head for houses so the localism has not come
:44:28. > :44:30.through a strongly as we like. But I believe the planning policy will be
:44:31. > :44:37.more robust overtime we get to April. Do you feel your party and
:44:38. > :44:43.not really listening to you and the Tory people on the ground? I shall
:44:44. > :44:46.shout louder and I lead a debate on the fascia of the rural authority to
:44:47. > :44:51.make Chile get `` make sure we get proper funding for our council tax
:44:52. > :44:58.funders. We have to deliver better services. Those are the key issues
:44:59. > :45:02.people feel strongly about. I am going to bring Adrian in because
:45:03. > :45:05.UKIP may be a threat to the Tories but it's also a threat to you.
:45:06. > :45:09.Traditionally people would leave Tory and go Lib Dem. Now they seem
:45:10. > :45:23.to be choosing UKIP instead of the Lib Dems. I am not sure that is
:45:24. > :45:25.true. The real issues that people and related talking about light
:45:26. > :45:30.transport costs, job opportunities, housing costs, the Tories had a
:45:31. > :45:38.whole day in Westminster on Friday to talk about Europe. They are
:45:39. > :45:42.fixated on losing vote UKIP. Rather than addressing the issues that
:45:43. > :45:51.affect people in religious. The people of this country what they say
:45:52. > :45:54.on Europe. I am pleased to be delivering a referendum so people
:45:55. > :45:57.can have a real say as to whether we should be in or out of Europe and
:45:58. > :46:08.let's settle this matter once and for all. I don't take a lecture on
:46:09. > :46:16.being a peer. It is as big an issue in the rural areas as it is in the
:46:17. > :46:19.urban areas. We are also dealing with the fuel problems and we have
:46:20. > :46:24.to make sure people don't have high fuel bills. It is no good pushing
:46:25. > :46:27.more and more taxes for wind turbines and solar farms. We are
:46:28. > :46:31.doing a lot. People are very concerned about Europe ruling us and
:46:32. > :46:37.that is why this referendum is essential. But this Countryside
:46:38. > :46:49.Alliance survey suggested 13% of people are leaving. Alison, what do
:46:50. > :46:53.you make of the Tory policies? It would be an thinkable for Labour to
:46:54. > :46:59.go against the heartlands in the north`east. This is about people
:47:00. > :47:06.looking for scapegoats in difficult times. This coming year, councils
:47:07. > :47:10.are going to have to find cuts equivalent to the cuts they've had
:47:11. > :47:14.already making the last three as. That affects you whether you are
:47:15. > :47:18.urban oral. There are issues of sparsity and itching just in the
:47:19. > :47:31.local government Association is saying let's go back and revisit the
:47:32. > :47:35.former. `` the formula. I listened to the gentleman in the film and
:47:36. > :47:39.there are issues on all sides. What is your message to seven of these
:47:40. > :47:44.people were so disaffected with the Tory party they have turned to UKIP?
:47:45. > :47:53.I would say stick with us. We have stopped the 12p rise on duty for
:47:54. > :47:58.petrol. We will deliver this referendum on Europe. We are going
:47:59. > :48:07.to be making amendments to the hunting act. We have dealt with TB.
:48:08. > :48:13.I did want to ask Adrian, you said UKIP is not a threat to the Lib Dems
:48:14. > :48:18.but Nigel Farage is predicting UKIP with all the sake Lib Dems in terms
:48:19. > :48:30.of members within two years. `` will overtake. Is that something you're
:48:31. > :48:35.worried about? We have 57 MPs and they don't have any. The issues
:48:36. > :48:40.about cost of living and housing, yes I would like a referendum on you
:48:41. > :48:47.that. The Lib Dems have pledged to that. I think Labour has got a
:48:48. > :48:56.similar policy. We would have the vote in the future. But the idea
:48:57. > :48:58.that the Tory party get a majority Tory government would waste
:48:59. > :49:04.Parliamentary time bringing back hunting I think says it all in terms
:49:05. > :49:07.of their priorities. Thank you for joining us.
:49:08. > :49:10.It was a case which shocked the region and one which has sparked
:49:11. > :49:14.debate in Parliament this week. Three years ago, Harold Philpotts is
:49:15. > :49:18.believed to have set fire to a house in Cornwall killing himself, his
:49:19. > :49:21.wife and ten`year`old son. The case was mentioned by an MP raising his
:49:22. > :49:24.concern that domestic violence victims can be put at greater risk
:49:25. > :49:35.because of patient confidentiality. This report from Anna Varle begins
:49:36. > :49:39.with an extract from his debate. Ten`year`old Ben Philpott will
:49:40. > :49:46.always be remembered by his teachers with his hand eagerly in the air and
:49:47. > :49:53.the beaming smile. He was a positive spirit and a popular member of his
:49:54. > :49:56.school community. A boy who showed enthusiasm for everything he
:49:57. > :50:02.undertook. He was a key member of his local foot will team and was a
:50:03. > :50:06.natural sportsman. It is nearly four years since the death of Ben and his
:50:07. > :50:14.mother following the fire at their home in Newquay. The prime suspect
:50:15. > :50:21.died from burns a week later. He had psychosis and was suffering from
:50:22. > :50:26.depression. The case was one of huge distress not only to the community
:50:27. > :50:30.but also to the extended family and those of us in local government. We
:50:31. > :50:35.felt it was a case that should never have happened. A serious case review
:50:36. > :50:40.found no agency could have foreseen the tragic outcomes but it did
:50:41. > :50:44.recommend better sharing of issues between teams like the police and
:50:45. > :50:49.social services. They had been threats against the wife and threats
:50:50. > :50:54.against the child. But those were not communicated. The health
:50:55. > :50:59.professionals wish a conclusion that the family were not at risk. It is
:51:00. > :51:03.not part of my debate to say they were wrong but what I'm saying is
:51:04. > :51:07.that the wife should have been able to make their own assessment. She
:51:08. > :51:11.was not able to because she didn't have all the information. In his
:51:12. > :51:14.speech Jonathan Evans questioned whether it was right that patient
:51:15. > :51:19.confidentiality should trump public safety as he claimed it had then in
:51:20. > :51:22.the `` this medical case. He said more could be done to ensure
:51:23. > :51:26.professionals don't miss warning signs and pointed at that in many
:51:27. > :51:31.family annihilation cases there is a history of domestic abuse. My
:51:32. > :51:35.purpose is to urge the government to build on the Home Secretary's review
:51:36. > :51:41.of the effectiveness of dealing with domestic violence. Every ten days in
:51:42. > :51:45.England and Wales one child is killed at the hands of a parent. In
:51:46. > :51:49.Devon alone there were more than 4000 referrals of domestic abuse
:51:50. > :51:54.cases to agencies such as the police and local authorities last year.
:51:55. > :51:58.1500 children were in homes which were deemed medium or high risk. Of
:51:59. > :52:03.course not all domestic violence cases end in death. The research by
:52:04. > :52:09.Birmingham city University show the number of family annihilation cases
:52:10. > :52:14.it arising. It is an indicator of a wider social problem. The family is
:52:15. > :52:20.becoming a pressure cooker. It is one symptom of that. The government
:52:21. > :52:23.does not accept that instances are increasing. It says much has been
:52:24. > :52:28.done to help agencies work together to protect those most at risk. But
:52:29. > :52:31.it did concede there is much more to do.
:52:32. > :52:37.Anna Varle reporting and we're joined by Sue Wallis from North
:52:38. > :52:41.Devon Against Domestic Abuse. How hard is it for social services to
:52:42. > :52:50.spot which of these cases may turn into something worse? I would say it
:52:51. > :52:54.is extremely difficult for anyone to tell whether or not something is
:52:55. > :53:00.going to escalate from what we would recognise as a domestic `` domestic
:53:01. > :53:08.abusive situation into a family annihilation. But it is around the
:53:09. > :53:14.training issues of recognising what domestic abuse is in the first
:53:15. > :53:21.place. In this case it does throw up some inadequate and sees ``
:53:22. > :53:26.inadequacies. Harold Philpotts had told a doctor he wanted to kill his
:53:27. > :53:31.wife and son she was not told that because of patient confidentiality.
:53:32. > :53:36.Can something be done about that? What we actually need is a framework
:53:37. > :53:41.and an understanding of when it is acceptable to break patient
:53:42. > :53:50.confidentiality or any confidentiality. We are all under an
:53:51. > :53:55.obligation to ignore confidentiality when it is about safeguarding the
:53:56. > :54:01.child. GPs to have a huge difficulty and it is a training issue and they
:54:02. > :54:08.need to know they can have the confidence to report something like
:54:09. > :54:14.that to the correct place. And presumably no when to do it and not.
:54:15. > :54:18.Could the guidance be clearer? Yes. If you look at the practice
:54:19. > :54:22.happening in Plymouth, the sharing of information between police and
:54:23. > :54:25.schools for example, so if there has been an incident at home with the
:54:26. > :54:30.police in Plymouth will now advise the school so the school is away.
:54:31. > :54:36.Previously that did not happen. There needs to be information
:54:37. > :54:42.sharing. It is about having the confidence to do that in those
:54:43. > :54:46.circumstances. I have had people in my constituency surgeries on the
:54:47. > :54:54.phone who have expressed real worries about child safety. They
:54:55. > :54:58.have not felt able to take any action but I have been able to do
:54:59. > :55:05.so. You cannot sit back and not do anything. You come back to support,
:55:06. > :55:10.funding and mental health issues as well and support for that. Adrian,
:55:11. > :55:16.are we learning enough lessons from these cases? Theresa May has ordered
:55:17. > :55:21.a coherent review of different bodies. Are you hopeful that will
:55:22. > :55:27.throw up some answers? The government is doing quite a few
:55:28. > :55:34.things. The government is learning all the time. There is no automatic
:55:35. > :55:43.reporting of death so there's a proper review. That did not use a
:55:44. > :55:54.happen. There are some pilots like play's law. `` clear's law. Better
:55:55. > :56:00.training for the police. All these things cost money. There are funding
:56:01. > :56:05.cuts in the pipeline. How will they affect bodies like yourselves? The
:56:06. > :56:12.difficulty is that millions of pounds are being spent on serious
:56:13. > :56:15.case reviews and less money is being spent on ground level with that
:56:16. > :56:19.service can be delivered to people so they can understand what domestic
:56:20. > :56:28.abuses. And how to protect themselves from it. That is the most
:56:29. > :56:37.important thing. I would keep the refuge is open. They are being
:56:38. > :56:41.closed, including the one in Torbay. People mentioned Torbay to you
:56:42. > :56:49.didn't they? The real difficulty is that social workers and police are
:56:50. > :56:56.all very hard`pressed now. They have taken cut after cut their services.
:56:57. > :56:59.We've had social workers where we've expressed concern about the family
:57:00. > :57:06.and they have said, I don't have time to listen to you. That is the
:57:07. > :57:10.voice of an overworked social workers and of somebody who is not
:57:11. > :57:17.being supported in their role. You've also got the bedroom tax and
:57:18. > :57:24.people are being caught by the bedroom tax because they have a safe
:57:25. > :57:28.room to go to in their house. I am looking at a way to highlight that
:57:29. > :57:35.elsewhere because that has to stop. People have to be allowed to have
:57:36. > :57:40.safe rooms. If the review did not pick this up what we do? We have to
:57:41. > :57:46.trust the professionals in the front line to make decisions. That is one
:57:47. > :57:49.thing we really have to do. Thank you all for joining us.
:57:50. > :58:03.Now, our regular round`up of the political week in 60 seconds.
:58:04. > :58:09.On a visit to farm of Lord Heseltine said Cornwall was more prosperous in
:58:10. > :58:13.real terms than a generation ago. Look at the cars. They are a totally
:58:14. > :58:19.different states are the ones 30 years ago. The future of all
:58:20. > :58:26.Devon's council run care homes was put under a cost`cutting review.
:58:27. > :58:32.There will be real concerns amongst residents and their families and
:58:33. > :58:38.loved ones. Somerset's article fell five point short of its 70% target
:58:39. > :58:42.even after the three`week extension. They are playing the figures uncover
:58:43. > :58:48.the fact it has been a complete failure and they have killed badgers
:58:49. > :58:50.for no reason at all. A proposal to transfer the Duchy of Cornwall from
:58:51. > :58:56.Prince Charles to the people was discussed in Parliament. And
:58:57. > :59:00.inspired by this ceremony in Exeter, the people of Plymouth were asked to
:59:01. > :59:14.nominate lost war heroes for street names. If you could name a street
:59:15. > :59:17.after anyone who would it be? I would go for Robin Stubbs who scored
:59:18. > :59:25.a hat`trick in the third round of the FA Cup in 1966 the Torquay
:59:26. > :59:31.United against Tottenham Hotspur. Allison, have you got a personal
:59:32. > :59:35.hero? If we are looking at war heroes it would be the first
:59:36. > :59:40.Plymouth Sylvia lost in the First World War. Who was that? I don't
:59:41. > :59:47.know. They were far too many victims but that would be the person I would
:59:48. > :59:50.name a street after. What about transferring the powers of the Duchy
:59:51. > :59:55.of Cornwall from the Prince of Wales to the people, is that something you
:59:56. > :59:58.would like to see happen? That is a big question for two seconds. We
:59:59. > :00:07.need to have a detailed discussion. Yes and no? I think it is
:00:08. > :00:21.inevitable. That's the Sunday Politics in the
:00:22. > :00:25.South West. You can always watch this show again online. Thanks to my
:00:26. > :00:26.guests, Alison Seabeck and Adrian Sanders. Now, back to Andrew in
:00:27. > :00:28.London. Enjoy the rest of more equipment so they can see
:00:29. > :00:42.cyclists. Back to you, Andrew. We learned this week that no more
:00:43. > :00:46.warships will be built at Portsmouth, the home of the Royal
:00:47. > :00:49.Navy since the days of the Mary Rose and Francis Drake. But has the city
:00:50. > :00:53.been sacrificed to save jobs on the Clyde in Scotland? Is England the
:00:54. > :00:57.loser in an effort to keep the United Kingdom intact? Let's speak
:00:58. > :01:08.to Eddie Bone, he leads the campaign for an English Parliament. Is
:01:09. > :01:09.England the loser in this attempt to keep the
:01:10. > :01:17.doubt, Andrew. We would look at it from the campaign for the English
:01:18. > :01:22.Parliament that the British governance is bribing the Scots to
:01:23. > :01:28.stay with the union at the cost of English jobs. What is the best
:01:29. > :01:32.outcome for England when Scotland votes in the referendum next year?
:01:33. > :01:36.We have got to have an English parliament. What I mean by that is
:01:37. > :01:42.an endless governor and with a first minister speaking on behalf of the
:01:43. > :01:46.people of England. -- and English government. If Scotland votes for
:01:47. > :01:53.independence, that is the union coming to an end. It will be
:01:54. > :02:00.dissolved legally. England would be going to negotiating table without
:02:01. > :02:05.true representation. The union continues but it continues without
:02:06. > :02:10.Scotland. I want to come back to my... That is the constitutional
:02:11. > :02:15.position. You may not agree with me but that is the constitutional
:02:16. > :02:21.position. Do you want Scotland to vote for independence next year We
:02:22. > :02:26.want a fair deal with equality for England. If that can be maintained
:02:27. > :02:31.or England can have a fair deal within the union, that is brilliant.
:02:32. > :02:35.Let's have a federal system are all the nations are treated equally If
:02:36. > :02:44.that cannot happen and Scotland decides to stay, if Scotland goes,
:02:45. > :02:49.it is an independent England, isn't it? If Scotland votes to leave the
:02:50. > :02:53.union, what is left of the United Kingdom would be so dominated by
:02:54. > :02:58.England at Westminster would, in effect, Beale English Parliament,
:02:59. > :03:05.wouldn't it? I do not agree with you. I think that is a British, deny
:03:06. > :03:10.list approach. The act of union was a fusion with the King of England to
:03:11. > :03:15.the King of Scotland. That would come to an end. The Welsh are very
:03:16. > :03:19.concerned. They are a very small nation. If you have a botched
:03:20. > :03:24.British come English Parliament the Welsh would be in a very vulnerable
:03:25. > :03:29.situation. They would not be listened to. Also a situation with
:03:30. > :03:32.Northern Ireland. There are voices in Northern Ireland talking about
:03:33. > :03:37.trying to reunite Northern Ireland. It would be a very volatile
:03:38. > :03:42.situation. Would you prefer England to become an independent nation
:03:43. > :03:46.separate from what was left of the UK, which would be Wales and
:03:47. > :03:52.Northern Ireland? Would you like to see England have a seat in the UN? I
:03:53. > :03:59.want their representation for the people of England. English jobs were
:04:00. > :04:06.sacrificed because the British government wanted Scotland to
:04:07. > :04:15.remain... You have answered that very quickly. I am -- very clearly.
:04:16. > :04:21.Would you want England, without Northern Ireland and Wales to become
:04:22. > :04:25.a separate nation state? If that is what it takes for people of England
:04:26. > :04:29.to have their representation - representation that looks at
:04:30. > :04:33.policies of the NHS, education very different from Wales and Northern
:04:34. > :04:38.Ireland - then so be it. Independence will need to be the way
:04:39. > :04:49.forward. We have a small window of opportunity that the federal system
:04:50. > :04:57.might still work. D1 indenting have a system like Scotland? -- do you
:04:58. > :05:04.want England to have a system like Scotland? What we need to do now is
:05:05. > :05:09.implement the process is to get their representation for England. I
:05:10. > :05:14.would urge your viewers to join our campaign because it is the only way
:05:15. > :05:19.to protect jobs in England, protect the NHS, protect education.
:05:20. > :05:22.Otherwise we will see the people in England continually penalised by the
:05:23. > :05:28.British government is trying desperately to save the union by
:05:29. > :05:34.giving more to Scotland and Wales. Nice to talk to you. Helen, on this
:05:35. > :05:38.business of the Clyde versus Portsmouth, it would have been
:05:39. > :05:42.pretty inconceivable of the British government that believes in the
:05:43. > :05:47.union to have allowed the Clyde to close. That would have been a
:05:48. > :05:52.disaster. It would have been. It's dumped Nicola Sturgeon. Hang on a
:05:53. > :05:55.minute, if there was Scottish independence, England were not allow
:05:56. > :06:00.its warships to be built in a foreign country. She was unable to
:06:01. > :06:05.admit there were any downsides to Scottish independence. It would be
:06:06. > :06:09.dangerous for Scotland to talk about this. You have a Lib Dem and a
:06:10. > :06:14.Conservative MP with reasonable majorities. They will find that a
:06:15. > :06:20.killer on their doorstep in the next election. There are no results in
:06:21. > :06:26.this for Mr Cameron. He has one MP and he will be lucky to have two.
:06:27. > :06:31.And the South of England, I know Portsmouth is quite an industrial
:06:32. > :06:35.area, but the South of England is overall Tory territory. He has
:06:36. > :06:39.backed the Clyde where there are no Tory votes. The Tory problem in
:06:40. > :06:43.Scotland is crucial. The trend to look out for is the rise of English
:06:44. > :06:48.nationalism within the Conservative Party. They have the word Unionist
:06:49. > :06:52.in their official title. If, in election after election, they failed
:06:53. > :06:55.to win a significant presence in Scotland, and they are failing to
:06:56. > :07:02.win a majority in Westminster because of that, it is not hard to
:07:03. > :07:10.imagine that in ten years time that would be a party which has more
:07:11. > :07:15.autonomy. One person we know who does not sign up to that. David
:07:16. > :07:19.Cameron is a romantic Unionist at heart he may say that are not any
:07:20. > :07:26.vote in Scotland but he want to keep the union together. With the Clyde,
:07:27. > :07:30.you saw a rival together of economic and political interests. It is
:07:31. > :07:34.economic or the case the greatest shipbuilding capability in the
:07:35. > :07:37.United Kingdom is in the Clyde. It is politically very helpful for this
:07:38. > :07:41.government to say to people in Scotland, look at the benefits of
:07:42. > :07:45.being in the United Kingdom and under their breath, or in the case
:07:46. > :07:52.of Alistair Carmichael to a camera, look what might go if you leave
:07:53. > :07:56.That came together very conveniently to the government. Now, how do you
:07:57. > :07:59.like your politicians? Squeaky clean with an impeccable past? Or are you
:08:00. > :08:02.happy for them to have a few skeletons in the closet? Well, last
:08:03. > :08:05.week the Toronto Mayor Rob Ford admitted smoking crack cocaine. He
:08:06. > :08:09.said he took the drug about a year ago whilst in a drunken stupor. So,
:08:10. > :08:13.what impact do confessions have on a political career? In a moment, we'll
:08:14. > :08:22.hear what our panel has to say, but first, take a look at this. Yes I
:08:23. > :08:27.have smoked crack cocaine. Am I an addict? No. Have I tried it?
:08:28. > :08:33.Probably one of my drunken stupor is, about a year ago. I have used
:08:34. > :08:40.drugs in the past. I have used class a drugs in the past. About 30 years
:08:41. > :08:46.ago at university, I did smoke cannabis. I took cannabis is a few
:08:47. > :08:53.times at university and it was wrong. Have you snorted cocaine I
:08:54. > :09:18.tried to but unsuccessfully years ago. I sneezed. The people around
:09:19. > :09:25.you who took cocaine, they went .. Is it better to confess or the that
:09:26. > :09:31.get you into even more hot water? It is absolutely better. The confession
:09:32. > :09:37.by Jacqui Smith was without glamour. Finding a Labour politician who once
:09:38. > :09:43.smoked cannabis 25 years ago... I do not think it makes you think that
:09:44. > :09:47.she cannot be a serious politician. Politicians should brace thing about
:09:48. > :09:53.them which everyone knows. In the case of Ed Miliband, he should not
:09:54. > :10:04.deny being geeky. That would reek of in authenticity. The Tory MP meant
:10:05. > :10:09.to be regarded as a rising star turns out he was claiming to heat
:10:10. > :10:15.his horses stables at the expense of the tax payer. He had made a
:10:16. > :10:18.generous claim for energy bills in his constituency home. He went
:10:19. > :10:22.through the papers and found he had been using it to heat the stables
:10:23. > :10:28.and he laid it all out and did the right thing. He was completely
:10:29. > :10:36.honest. Is that the end of it? It will still haunt in because energy
:10:37. > :10:41.is such a big issue. He was right to be honest about it. Helen was
:10:42. > :10:45.saying, absolutely, you need to be honest about your past. Harriet
:10:46. > :10:50.Harman said she smoked pot at university. If you have smoked pot,
:10:51. > :10:58.you can have a front line career. If you have taken class a drugs, you
:10:59. > :11:00.cannot have a front line career There is the politician confessing
:11:01. > :11:05.and the remarkable willingness of the public to forgive. It is
:11:06. > :11:10.enlightened and progressive to forgive a politician for an affair
:11:11. > :11:15.or taking soft drugs at university. To smoke crack cocaine and demand be
:11:16. > :11:20.mad of following the Mayor of Toronto does astonishes me. There
:11:21. > :11:26.was an example in America a few years ago. It was crack cocaine He
:11:27. > :11:33.was elected having confessed to smoking crack cocaine. I draw the
:11:34. > :11:39.line around class a drugs. We will put the team on to investigate him.
:11:40. > :11:42.Help to Bible come back into the headlines again. Mr Cameron will
:11:43. > :11:46.surroundings by the people who are benefiting from buying their homes
:11:47. > :11:52.on this scheme in the same way that this is that you used to visit those
:11:53. > :11:56.who had bought their council houses. It will become hugely politicised.
:11:57. > :12:04.The Bank of England thinks that unemployment will drop late 201 ,
:12:05. > :12:09.early 2015. They will put interest rates up. Those with 95% mortgages
:12:10. > :12:14.will have two find an extra ?40 a month to pay them off. I would not
:12:15. > :12:26.be surprised if David Cameron is setting up himself with this
:12:27. > :12:35.trouble. They will not want to raise interest rates. Mark Carney was very
:12:36. > :12:39.careful to give himself three get out clauses. If unemployment hits a
:12:40. > :12:43.certain level, Key has three measures which have to be fulfilled
:12:44. > :12:47.before he goes ahead and raises interest rates. As a Tory
:12:48. > :12:51.strategist, would you rather go into the election with low and implement
:12:52. > :13:01.or low interest rates? I think they would stick to low interest rates.
:13:02. > :13:05.-- low unemployment. It is not just panellists who are raising questions
:13:06. > :13:12.about it, it is senior figures people in senior economic positions.
:13:13. > :13:16.They are saying the scheme is fine at the moment. David Cameron will be
:13:17. > :13:21.surrounded by people who have taken mortgages out at low levels and it
:13:22. > :13:27.is all fine right now but if interest rates go up, it will not be
:13:28. > :13:30.cosy. That's all folks. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two
:13:31. > :13:33.at midday. I'll be back next Sunday at the normal time of 11am.
:13:34. > :13:44.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.