:00:37. > :00:45.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. George Osborne
:00:46. > :00:49.announces a ?50 cut to annual household energy bills. We'll talk
:00:50. > :00:52.to Lib Dem president Tim Farron ahead of the Chancellor's mini
:00:53. > :00:56.budget this week. Net immigration is up for the first
:00:57. > :01:01.time in two years. Labour and the Tories say they want to bring it
:01:02. > :01:11.down, but how? Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper joins us for the
:01:12. > :01:14.Sunday Interview. The harder you shake the pack, the easier it will
:01:15. > :01:18.be for some cornflakes to get to the top. The Mayor of London says
:01:19. > :01:19.inequality and greed are essential to spur economic activity. The
:01:20. > :01:26.speech And in the South West. Calls to get
:01:27. > :01:29.credit flowing into our struggling small businesses. And a week of
:01:30. > :01:30.drama and uncertainty over the future of controversial offshore
:01:31. > :01:33.wind farms. capital is now a crisis. Another
:01:34. > :01:45.week, another strategy? Can this one deliver?
:01:46. > :01:48.And with me throughout today's programme, well, we've shaken the
:01:49. > :01:54.packet and look who's risen to the top. Or did we open it at the
:01:55. > :01:57.bottom? Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates. All three will be
:01:58. > :02:07.tweeting throughout the programme using the hashtag #bbcsp. So, after
:02:08. > :02:09.weeks in which Ed Miliband's promise to freeze energy prices has set the
:02:10. > :02:12.Westminster agenda, the Coalition Government is finally coming up with
:02:13. > :02:15.its answer. This morning the Chancellor George Osborne explained
:02:16. > :02:18.how he plans to cut household energy bills by an average of fifty quid.
:02:19. > :02:22.What we're going to do is roll back the levees that are placed by
:02:23. > :02:28.government on people's electricity bills. This will mean that for the
:02:29. > :02:33.average bill payer, they will have ?50 of those electricity and gas
:02:34. > :02:37.bills. That will help families. We are doing it in the way that
:02:38. > :02:41.government can do it. We are controlling the cost that families
:02:42. > :02:45.incurred because of government policies. We are doing it in a way
:02:46. > :02:49.that will not damage the environment or reduce our commitment to dealing
:02:50. > :02:54.with climate change. We will not produce commit men to helping
:02:55. > :03:00.low-income families with the cost of living. Janan, we are finally seeing
:03:01. > :03:04.the coalition begin to play its hand in response to the Ed Miliband
:03:05. > :03:07.freeze? They have been trying to respond for almost ten weeks and
:03:08. > :03:14.older responses have been quite fiddly. We are going to take a bit
:03:15. > :03:18.of tax year, put it onto general taxation, have a conversation with
:03:19. > :03:23.the energy companies, engineered a rebate of some kind, this is not
:03:24. > :03:28.very vivid. The advantage of the idea that they have announced
:03:29. > :03:34.overnight is that it is clear and it has a nice round figure attached to
:03:35. > :03:40.it, ?50. The chief of staff of President Obama, he said, if you are
:03:41. > :03:47.explaining, you're losing. The genius of this idea is that it does
:03:48. > :03:51.not require explanation. He would not drawn this morning on what
:03:52. > :03:54.agreement he had with the energy companies, and whether this would
:03:55. > :03:59.fall through to the bottom of the bill, but the way he spoke, saying,
:04:00. > :04:03.I am not going to pre-empt what the energy companies say, that suggests
:04:04. > :04:10.he has something up his sleeve. Yes, I thought so. The energy companies
:04:11. > :04:14.have made this so badly for so long. It would be awful if he announced
:04:15. > :04:18.this and the energy companies said, we are going to keep this money for
:04:19. > :04:23.ourselves. I do not think he is that stupid. The energy companies have an
:04:24. > :04:29.incentive to go along with this don't they? My worry is that I am
:04:30. > :04:35.not sure how much it will be within the opinion polls. I think people
:04:36. > :04:40.might expect this now, it is not a new thing, it is not an exciting
:04:41. > :04:46.thing. Say in the markets, they may have priced the ten already. If by
:04:47. > :04:52.Thursday of this week, he is able to say, I have a ?50 cut coming to your
:04:53. > :04:55.bill. The energy companies have guaranteed that this will fall
:04:56. > :05:00.through onto your energy bill, and they have indicated to me that they
:05:01. > :05:06.themselves will not put up energy prices through 2014, has he shot the
:05:07. > :05:11.Ed Miliband Fox? I think he has a couple of challenges. It is still
:05:12. > :05:15.very hard. This is an answer for the next 12 months but did is no chance
:05:16. > :05:19.announced that Labour will stop saying they are going to freeze
:05:20. > :05:24.prices in the next Parliament. He will say, I have not just frozen
:05:25. > :05:29.them, I have done that as well and I have cut them. When people look at
:05:30. > :05:33.their energy bills, they are going up by more than ?50. This is a
:05:34. > :05:41.reduction in the amount that they are going up overall. Year on 0
:05:42. > :05:48.will be for George Osborne. He will have to come up with something this
:05:49. > :05:51.time next year. The detail in the Sunday papers reveals that George
:05:52. > :05:56.Osborne is trying to get the energy companies to put on bills that 50
:05:57. > :06:01.has been knocked off your bill because of a reduction by the
:06:02. > :06:05.government. He is trying to get the energy companies to do his political
:06:06. > :06:09.bidding for him. It will be interesting to see if they go along
:06:10. > :06:14.with that, because then we will know how cross the arm with Ed Miliband.
:06:15. > :06:18.Let's get another perspective. Joining me now from Kendal in the
:06:19. > :06:23.Lake District is the president of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.
:06:24. > :06:31.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Good morning. Let me ask you this, the
:06:32. > :06:35.coalition is rowing back on green taxes, I do comfortable with that or
:06:36. > :06:40.is it something else you will rebel against? I am very comfortable with
:06:41. > :06:46.the fact we are protecting for the money is going. I am open to where
:06:47. > :06:51.the money comes from. The notion that we should stop insulating the
:06:52. > :06:55.homes of elderly people or stop investing in British manufacturing
:06:56. > :06:58.in terms of green industry, that is something that I resolutely oppose,
:06:59. > :07:03.but I am pleased that the funding will be made available for all that.
:07:04. > :07:08.You cannot ignore the fact that for a whole range of reasons, mostly
:07:09. > :07:13.down to the actions of the energy companies, you have prices that are
:07:14. > :07:19.shooting up and affecting lots of people, making life hard. You cannot
:07:20. > :07:23.ignore that. If we fund the installation of homes for older
:07:24. > :07:28.people and others, if we protect British manufacturing jobs, and
:07:29. > :07:34.raise the money through general taxation, I am comfortable with
:07:35. > :07:38.that. It is not clear that is going to happen. It looks like the
:07:39. > :07:42.eco-scheme, whereby the energy companies pay for the installation
:07:43. > :07:46.of those on below-average incomes, they will spin that out over four
:07:47. > :07:52.years, not two years, and one estimate is that that will cost
:07:53. > :07:57.10,000 jobs. You're always boasting about your commitment to green jobs,
:07:58. > :08:03.how do square that? I do not believe that. The roll-out will be longer.
:08:04. > :08:07.The number of houses reached will be greater and that is a good thing. My
:08:08. > :08:15.take is that it will not affect the number of jobs. People talk about
:08:16. > :08:19.green levies. There has been disparaging language about that sort
:08:20. > :08:25.of thing. There are 2 million people in this country in the lowest income
:08:26. > :08:33.families and they get ?230 off their energy bills because of what isn't
:08:34. > :08:40.-- because of what is disparaging the refer to as green stuff, shall
:08:41. > :08:46.we call it. There will be more properties covered. We both know
:08:47. > :08:52.that your party is being pushed into this by the Tories. You would not be
:08:53. > :08:55.doing this off your own bad. You are in coalition with people who have
:08:56. > :09:09.jettisoned their green Prudential is? -- credentials. You have made my
:09:10. > :09:12.point quite well. David Cameron s panicked response to this over the
:09:13. > :09:18.last few months was to ditch all the green stuff. It has been a job to
:09:19. > :09:23.make sure that we hold him to his pledges and the green cord of this
:09:24. > :09:25.government. That is why we are not scrapping the investment, we are
:09:26. > :09:33.making sure it is funded from general taxation. I am talking to
:09:34. > :09:38.you from Kendal. Lots of people struggle to pay their energy bills.
:09:39. > :09:41.But all these things pale into insignificance compared to the
:09:42. > :09:46.threat of climate change and we must hold the Prime Minister to account
:09:47. > :09:49.on this issue. Argue reconciled to the idea that as long as you're in
:09:50. > :09:58.coalition with the Tories you will never get a mansion tax? I am not
:09:59. > :10:01.reconciled to it. We are trying to give off other tax cut to the lowest
:10:02. > :10:07.income people. What about the mansion tax? That would be
:10:08. > :10:12.potentially paid for by another view source of finance. That would be
:10:13. > :10:16.that the wealthy... We know that is what you want, but you're not going
:10:17. > :10:22.to get that? We will keep fighting for it. It is extremely important.
:10:23. > :10:32.We can show where we will get the money from. I know that is the
:10:33. > :10:38.adamant. That is not what I asked you. Ed Balls and Labour run in
:10:39. > :10:42.favour of a mansion tax, have you talked to them about it? The honest
:10:43. > :10:46.answer is I have not. It is interesting that they have come
:10:47. > :10:56.round to supporting our policy having rejected it in power. So if
:10:57. > :11:00.Labour was the largest party in parliament but not in power, you
:11:01. > :11:05.would have no problem agreeing with a mansion tax as part of the deal?
:11:06. > :11:10.If the arithmetic falls in that way and that is the will of the British
:11:11. > :11:16.people, fear taxes on those who are wealthiest, stuff that is fear,
:11:17. > :11:19.which includes wealth taxes, in order to fund more reductions for
:11:20. > :11:25.those people on lowest incomes, that is the sort of thing that we might
:11:26. > :11:32.reach agreement on. You voted with Labour on the spare room subsidy.
:11:33. > :11:39.Again, that would be job done in any future coalition talks with Labour,
:11:40. > :11:43.correct? I take the view that the spare room subsidy, whilst entirely
:11:44. > :11:49.fail in principle, in practice it has caused immense hardship. I want
:11:50. > :11:54.to see that changed. There are many people in government to share my
:11:55. > :11:58.view on that. So does Labour. The problem was largely caused Labour
:11:59. > :12:05.because they oversaw an increase in housing costs both 3.5 times while
:12:06. > :12:08.they were in power. The government was forced into a position to tidy
:12:09. > :12:21.up an appalling mess that Labour left. You voted with Labour against
:12:22. > :12:26.it, and also, you want... No, I voted with the party conference
:12:27. > :12:38.Let's not dance on the head of the ten. Maybe they voted with me. - on
:12:39. > :12:43.the head of a pin. You are also in favour of a 50% top rate of income
:12:44. > :12:48.tax, so you and Labour are that one there as well? No, I take the view
:12:49. > :12:55.that the top rate of income tax is a fluid thing. All taxation levels are
:12:56. > :13:00.temporary. Nick Clegg said that when the 50p rate came down to 45, that
:13:01. > :13:06.was a rather foolish price tag George Osborne asked for in return
:13:07. > :13:09.for as increasing the threshold and letting several million people out
:13:10. > :13:17.of paying income tax at the bottom. So you agree with Labour? In favour
:13:18. > :13:21.of rising the tax to 50p. I take the view that we should keep our minds
:13:22. > :13:25.open on that. It is not the income tax level that bothers me, it is
:13:26. > :13:31.whether the wealthy pay their fresh air. If that can be done through
:13:32. > :13:43.other taxes, then that is something that I am happy with. -- their fair
:13:44. > :13:47.share. Given your position on the top rate of tax, on the spare room
:13:48. > :13:51.subsidy, how does the prospect of another five years of coalition with
:13:52. > :13:58.the Tories strike you? The answer is, you react with whatever you have
:13:59. > :14:03.about you to what the electorate hand you. Whatever happens after the
:14:04. > :14:11.next election, you have got to respect the will of the people. Yes,
:14:12. > :14:16.but how do you feel about it? We know about this, I am asking for
:14:17. > :14:19.your feeling. Does your heart left or does your heart fall at the
:14:20. > :14:25.prospect of another five years with the Tories? My heart would always
:14:26. > :14:29.follow the prospect of anything other than a majority of Liberal
:14:30. > :14:34.Democrat government. Your heart must be permanently in your shoes then.
:14:35. > :14:39.Something like that, but when all is said and done, we accept the will of
:14:40. > :14:45.the electorate. When you stand for election, you have got to put up
:14:46. > :14:49.with what the electorate say. I have not found coalition as difficult as
:14:50. > :14:54.you might suggest. It is about people who have to disagree and
:14:55. > :14:57.agree to differ. You work with people in your daily life that you
:14:58. > :15:03.disagree with. It is what grown ups do. A lot of people in your party
:15:04. > :15:08.think that your positioning yourself to be the left-wing candidate in a
:15:09. > :15:15.post-Nick Clegg leadership contest. They think it is blatant
:15:16. > :15:28.manoeuvring. One senior figure says, this is about you. Which bit of the
:15:29. > :15:35.sanctimonious, treacherous little man is there not to like? What can I
:15:36. > :15:38.see in response to that. My job is to promote the Liberal Democrats. I
:15:39. > :15:48.have to do my best to consider what I'd defend to be right. By and
:15:49. > :15:53.large, my position as an MP in the Lake District, but also as the
:15:54. > :15:57.president of the party, is to reflect the will of people outside
:15:58. > :16:04.the Westminster village. That is the important thing to do. Thank you for
:16:05. > :16:08.joining us. David Cameron has said he wants to get it down to the tens
:16:09. > :16:11.of thousands, Ed Miliband has admitted New Labour "got it wrong",
:16:12. > :16:14.and Nick Clegg wants to be "zero-tolerant towards abuse". Yes,
:16:15. > :16:17.immigration is back on the political agenda, with figures released
:16:18. > :16:21.earlier this week showing that net migration is on the rise for the
:16:22. > :16:24.first time in two years. And that's not the only reason politicians are
:16:25. > :16:29.talking about it again. The issue of immigration has come
:16:30. > :16:33.into sharp focus because of concerns about the number of remaining ins
:16:34. > :16:38.and Bulgarians that can come to the UK next year. EU citizenship grants
:16:39. > :16:44.the right to free movement within the EU. But when Bulgaria and
:16:45. > :16:47.Romania joined in 2007, the government took up its right to
:16:48. > :16:57.apply temporary restrictions on movement. They must be lifted
:16:58. > :16:57.apply temporary restrictions on end of this year. According to the
:16:58. > :17:02.2011 census, about one eyed 1 million of the population in England
:17:03. > :17:06.and Wales is made up of people from countries who joined the EU in 004.
:17:07. > :17:12.The government has played down expectations that the skill of
:17:13. > :17:16.migration could be repeated. This week David Cameron announced new
:17:17. > :17:20.restrictions on the ability of EU migrants to claim benefits. That was
:17:21. > :17:31.two, send a message. That prompted criticism is that the UK risks being
:17:32. > :17:38.seen as a nasty country. Yvette Cooper joins me now for the Sunday
:17:39. > :17:41.interview. Welcome to the Sunday Politics, Yvette Cooper. You
:17:42. > :17:46.criticised the coalition for not acting sooner on immigration from
:17:47. > :17:49.Romania and Bulgaria but the timetable for the unrestricted
:17:50. > :17:54.arrival in January was agreed under Labour many years ago, and given the
:17:55. > :17:57.battle that you had with the Polish and the Hungarians, what
:17:58. > :18:01.preparations did you make in power? We think that we should learn from
:18:02. > :18:07.some of the things that happened with migration. It would have been
:18:08. > :18:11.better to have transitional controls in place and look at the impact of
:18:12. > :18:15.what happened. But what preparations did you make in power? We set out a
:18:16. > :18:21.series of measures that the Government still had time to bring
:18:22. > :18:25.in. It is important that this should be a calm and measured debate. There
:18:26. > :18:30.was time to bring in measures around benefit restrictions, for example,
:18:31. > :18:33.and looking at the impact on the labour market, to make sure you do
:18:34. > :18:39.not have exploitation of cheap migrant Labour which is bad for
:18:40. > :18:43.everyone. I know that but I have asked you before and I am asking
:18:44. > :18:47.again, what did you do? We got things wrong in Government. I
:18:48. > :18:54.understand that I am not arguing. You are criticising them not
:18:55. > :19:00.preparing, a legitimate criticism, but what did you do in power? Well,
:19:01. > :19:05.I did think we did enough. Did you do anything? We signed the agency
:19:06. > :19:11.workers directive but too slowly. We needed measures like that. We did
:19:12. > :19:15.support things like the social chapter and the minimum wage, but I
:19:16. > :19:20.have said before that we did not do enough and that is why we
:19:21. > :19:24.recommended the measures in March. I understand that is what you did in
:19:25. > :19:29.opposition and I take that. I put the general point to you that given
:19:30. > :19:34.your failure to introduce controls on the countries that joined in
:19:35. > :19:38.2004, alone among the major EU economies we did that, should we not
:19:39. > :19:43.keep an embarrassed silence on these matters? You have no credibility. I
:19:44. > :19:46.think you have got to talk about immigration. One of the things we
:19:47. > :19:49.did not do in Government was discussed immigration and the
:19:50. > :19:57.concerns people have and the long-term benefits that we know have
:19:58. > :19:59.come from people who have come to Britain over many generations
:20:00. > :20:01.contributing to Britain and having a big impact. I think we recognise
:20:02. > :20:06.that there are things that we did wrong, but it would be irresponsible
:20:07. > :20:11.for us not to join the debate and suggest sensible, practical measures
:20:12. > :20:15.that you can introduce now to address the concerns that people
:20:16. > :20:18.have, but also make sure that the system is fair and managed.
:20:19. > :20:22.Immigration is important to Britain but it does have to be controlled
:20:23. > :20:26.and managed in the right way. Let's remind ourselves of your record on
:20:27. > :20:32.immigration. The chart you did not consult when in power. This is total
:20:33. > :20:36.net migration per year under Labour. 2.2 million of net rise in
:20:37. > :20:47.migration, more than the population of Birmingham, you proud of that? --
:20:48. > :20:51.twice the population. Are you proud of that or apologising for it? We
:20:52. > :20:56.set the pace of immigration was too fat and the level was too high and
:20:57. > :21:01.it is right to bring migration down. So you think that was wrong?
:21:02. > :21:05.Overruled have been huge benefits from people that have come to
:21:06. > :21:11.Britain and built our biggest businesses. -- overall. They have
:21:12. > :21:15.become Olympic medal winners. But because the pace was too fast, that
:21:16. > :21:19.has had an impact. That was because of the lack of transitional controls
:21:20. > :21:23.from Eastern Europe and it is why we should learn from that and have
:21:24. > :21:29.sensible measures in place now, as part of what has got to be a calm
:21:30. > :21:34.debate. These are net migration figures. They don't often show the
:21:35. > :21:38.full figure. These are the immigration figures coming in. What
:21:39. > :21:43.that chart shows is that in terms of the gross number coming into this
:21:44. > :21:49.country, from the year 2000, it was half a million a year under Labour.
:21:50. > :21:54.Rising to 600,000 by the time you were out of power. A lot of people
:21:55. > :21:59.coming into these crowded islands, particularly since most of them come
:22:00. > :22:04.to London and the South East. Was that intentional? Was that out of
:22:05. > :22:09.control? Is that what you are now apologising for? What we said was
:22:10. > :22:13.that the Government got the figures wrong on the migration from Eastern
:22:14. > :22:17.Europe. If you remember particularly there was the issue of what happened
:22:18. > :22:22.with not having transitional controls in place. The Government
:22:23. > :22:27.didn't expect the number of people coming to the country to be the way
:22:28. > :22:31.it was. And so obviously mistakes were made. We have recognised that.
:22:32. > :22:35.We have also got to recognise that this is something that has happened
:22:36. > :22:40.in countries all over the world We travel and trade far more than ever.
:22:41. > :22:44.We have an increasingly globalised economy. Other European countries
:22:45. > :22:48.have been affected in the same way, and America, and other developing
:22:49. > :22:52.countries affected in the same way by the scale of migration. I am
:22:53. > :22:57.trying to work out whether the numbers were intentional or if you
:22:58. > :23:01.lost control. The key thing that we have said many times and I have
:23:02. > :23:05.already said it to you many times, Andrew, that we should have a
:23:06. > :23:08.transitional controls in place on Eastern Europe. I think that would
:23:09. > :23:14.have had an impact on them level of migration. We also should have
:23:15. > :23:17.brought in the points -based system earlier. We did bring that in
:23:18. > :23:22.towards the end and it did restrict the level of low skilled migration
:23:23. > :23:25.because there are different kinds of migration. University students
:23:26. > :23:29.coming to Britain brings in billions of pounds of investment. On the
:23:30. > :23:33.other hand, low skilled migration can have a serious impact on the
:23:34. > :23:39.jobs market, pay levels and so on at the low skilled end of the labour
:23:40. > :23:42.market. We have to distinguish between different kinds of
:23:43. > :23:46.migration. You keep trying to excuse the figures by talking about the
:23:47. > :23:52.lack of transitional controls. Can we skip the chart I was going to go
:23:53. > :23:57.to? The next one. Under Labour, this is the source of where migrants came
:23:58. > :24:01.from. The main source was not the accession countries or the remainder
:24:02. > :24:06.of Europe. Overwhelmingly they were from the African Commonwealth, and
:24:07. > :24:11.the Indian subcontinent. Overwhelmingly, these numbers are
:24:12. > :24:14.nothing to do with transitional controls. You can control that
:24:15. > :24:20.immigration entirely because they are not part of the EU. Was that a
:24:21. > :24:25.mistake? First of all, the big increase was in the accession
:24:26. > :24:29.groups. Not according to the chart. In terms of the increase, the
:24:30. > :24:33.changes that happened. Secondly in answer to the question that you just
:24:34. > :24:37.asked me, we should also have introduced the points -based system
:24:38. > :24:41.at an earlier stage. Thirdly there has been a big increase in the
:24:42. > :24:44.number of university students coming to Britain and they have brought
:24:45. > :24:48.billions of pounds of investment. At the moment the Government is not
:24:49. > :24:52.distinguishing, it is just using the figure of net migration. And that is
:24:53. > :24:56.starting to go up again, as you said in the introduction, but the problem
:24:57. > :25:00.is that it treats all kinds of migration is aimed. It does not
:25:01. > :25:05.address illegal immigration, which is a problem, but it treats
:25:06. > :25:09.university graduates coming to Britain in the same way as low
:25:10. > :25:14.skilled workers. If Labour get back into power, is it your ambition to
:25:15. > :25:17.bring down immigration? We have already said it is too high and we
:25:18. > :25:23.would support measures to bring it down. You would bring it down? There
:25:24. > :25:27.is something called student visas, which is not included in the
:25:28. > :25:31.figures, and it does not include university graduates, and it is a
:25:32. > :25:41.figure that has increased substantially in recent years. They
:25:42. > :25:44.come for short-term study but they do not even have to prove that they
:25:45. > :25:47.come for a college course. They do not even have to have a place to
:25:48. > :25:50.come. Those visas should be restricted to prevent abuse of the
:25:51. > :25:52.system and that is in line with a recommendation from the Inspectorate
:25:53. > :25:55.and that is the kind of practical thing that we could do. Can you give
:25:56. > :26:00.us a ballpark figure of how much immigration would fall? You have
:26:01. > :26:05.seen the mess that Theresa May has got into with her figures. She made
:26:06. > :26:28.a target that it is clear to me that she will not meet. I think that is
:26:29. > :26:31.right. She will not meet it. Can you give as a ballpark figure by which
:26:32. > :26:34.we can judge you? If she had been more sensible and taken more time to
:26:35. > :26:36.listen to experts and decide what measures should be targeted, then
:26:37. > :26:39.she would not be in this mess. You cannot give me a figure? She has
:26:40. > :26:42.chosen net migration. She has set a target, without ifs and buts. I
:26:43. > :26:44.think it is important not to have a massive gap between the rhetoric and
:26:45. > :26:48.reality. Not to make promises on numbers which are not responsible.
:26:49. > :26:52.OK, you won't give me a figure. Fine. Moving on to crime. 10,00
:26:53. > :26:57.front line police jobs have gone since 2010 but crime continues to
:26:58. > :27:01.fall. 7% down last year alone. When you told the Labour conference that
:27:02. > :27:06.you do not cut crime by cutting the police, you were wrong. I think the
:27:07. > :27:11.Government is being very complacent about what is happening to crime.
:27:12. > :27:14.Crime patterns are changing. There has been an exponential increase,
:27:15. > :27:23.and that is in the words of the police, in online crime. We have
:27:24. > :27:28.also seen, for example, domestic violence going up, but prosecutions
:27:29. > :27:33.dropping dramatically. There is a serious impact as a result of not
:27:34. > :27:36.having 10,000 police in place. You have talked about the exponential
:27:37. > :27:41.increase in online and economic crime. If those are the big growth
:27:42. > :27:47.areas, why have bobbies on the beat? That would make no difference. It is
:27:48. > :27:50.about an approach to policing that has been incredibly successful over
:27:51. > :27:54.many years, which Labour introduced, which is neighbourhood policing in
:27:55. > :27:58.the community is working hard with communities to prevent crime. People
:27:59. > :28:03.like to see bobbies on the beat but have you got any evidence that it
:28:04. > :28:07.leads to a reduction in crime? Interestingly, the Lords Stevens
:28:08. > :28:11.commission that we set up, they have reported this week and it has been
:28:12. > :28:17.the equivalent of a Royal commission, looking at the number of
:28:18. > :28:19.people involved in it. Their strong recommendation was that this is
:28:20. > :28:22.about preventing crime but also respectful law and order, working
:28:23. > :28:26.with communities, and so they strongly took the view with all of
:28:27. > :28:30.their expertise and the 30 different universities that they have involved
:28:31. > :28:33.with it, that on the basis of all that analysis, the right thing was
:28:34. > :28:40.to keep bobbies on the beat and not push them cars. Instinctively you
:28:41. > :28:45.would think it was true. More visible policing, less crime. But in
:28:46. > :28:48.all the criminology work, I cannot find the evidence. There is
:28:49. > :28:53.competing work about why there has been a 20 year drop in overall crime
:28:54. > :28:56.and everybody has different opinions on why that has happened. The point
:28:57. > :29:01.about neighbourhood policing is that it is broader than crime-fighting.
:29:02. > :29:08.It is about prevention and community safety. Improving the well-being of
:29:09. > :29:13.communities as well. Will you keep the elected Police Commissioners?
:29:14. > :29:18.Big sigh! What the report said was that the system is flawed. We raised
:29:19. > :29:24.concern about this at the beginning. You will remember at the elections,
:29:25. > :29:30.Theresa May's flagship policy, at the elections they cost ?100 million
:29:31. > :29:35.and there was 15% turnout. You have to have a system of accountability
:29:36. > :29:40.at the police. Three options were presented, all of which are forms.
:29:41. > :29:44.So you have to have reform. It is not whether to have reformed, it is
:29:45. > :29:55.which of those options is the best way to do it. The commission set out
:29:56. > :30:00.a series of options, and I thought that the preferable approach would
:30:01. > :30:04.be collaboration and voluntary mergers. We know they won't
:30:05. > :30:08.volunteer. There have been some collaboration is taking place. I
:30:09. > :30:13.think the issues with police and crime commissioners have fragmented
:30:14. > :30:17.things and made it harder to get collaboration between police
:30:18. > :30:23.forces. Everybody is asking this question, just before you go. What
:30:24. > :30:29.is it like living with a nightmare? Who does all the cooking, so I can't
:30:30. > :30:38.complain! Says Miliband people are wrong, he is a dream cook? He is!
:30:39. > :30:42.In a speech this week, Boris Johnson praised greed and envy as essential
:30:43. > :30:46.for economic progress, and that has got tongues wagging. What is the
:30:47. > :30:52.Mayor of London up to? What is his game plan? Does he even have a game
:30:53. > :31:00.plan and does he know if he has one? Flash photography coming up. Boris.
:31:01. > :31:04.In many ways I can leave it there. You'd know who I meant. And if you
:31:05. > :31:15.didn't, the unruly mop of blonde hair would tell you, the language.
:31:16. > :31:32.Ping-pong was invented on the dining tables of England. Somehow pulling
:31:33. > :31:35.off the ridiculous to the sublime. It is going to go zoink off the
:31:36. > :31:41.scale! But often having to speed away from the whiff-whaff of
:31:42. > :31:43.scandal. Boris, are you going to save your manage?
:31:44. > :31:46.There's always been a question about him and his as role as mayor and
:31:47. > :31:49.another prized position, as hinted to the Tory faithful this year at
:31:50. > :32:00.conference, discussing former French Prime Minister Alan Juppe. -- Alain
:32:01. > :32:05.Juppe. He told me he was going to be the mayor of Bordeaux. I think he
:32:06. > :32:10.may have been mayor well he was Prime Minister, it is the kind of
:32:11. > :32:18.thing they do in funds -- AvD in France. It is a good idea, if you
:32:19. > :32:23.ask me. But is it a joke? He is much more ambitious. Boris wants to be
:32:24. > :32:29.Prime Minister more than anything else. Perhaps more than he wants to
:32:30. > :32:37.be made of London. The ball came loose from the back of the scrum. Of
:32:38. > :32:43.course it would give great thing to have a crack at, but it is not going
:32:44. > :32:45.to happen. He might be right. First, the Conservatives have a leader
:32:46. > :32:50.another Old Etonian, Oxford, Bullingdon chap and he has the job
:32:51. > :32:56.Boris might like a crack at. What do you do with a problem like Boris? It
:32:57. > :33:03.is one of the great paradoxes of Tory politics that for Boris Johnson
:33:04. > :33:06.to succeed, David Cameron must feel. Boris needs David Cameron to lose so
:33:07. > :33:10.that he can stand a chance of becoming loser. -- becoming leader.
:33:11. > :33:12.And disloyalty is punished by Conservatives. Boris knows the man
:33:13. > :33:15.who brought down Margaret Thatcher. Michael Heseltine, who Boris
:33:16. > :33:21.replaced as MP for Henley, never got her job. In 1986, she took on the
:33:22. > :33:32.member for Henley, always a risky venture. And why might he make such
:33:33. > :33:37.a jibe, because he's won two more elections than the PM. Conservatives
:33:38. > :33:51.like a winner. Boris, against Robert expectations, has won the Mayor of
:33:52. > :33:54.London job twice. -- public. He might've built a following with the
:33:55. > :33:58.grassroots but he's on shakier ground with many Tory MPs, who see
:33:59. > :34:05.him as a selfish clown, unfit for high office. And besides, he's not
:34:06. > :34:08.the only one with king-sized ambition, and Boris and George are
:34:09. > :34:17.not close, however much they may profess unity. There is probably
:34:18. > :34:21.some Chinese expression for a complete and perfect harmony. Ying
:34:22. > :34:25.and yang. But in plain black and white, if Boris has a plan, it's one
:34:26. > :34:30.he can't instigate, and if David Cameron is PM in 2016, it may not be
:34:31. > :34:37.implementable. He'd need a seat and it wouldn't be plain sailing if he
:34:38. > :34:41.did make a leadership bid. My leadership chances, I think I may
:34:42. > :34:46.have told you before, or about as good as my chances of ying
:34:47. > :34:50.reincarnated as a baked bean. Which is probably quite high. So if the
:34:51. > :34:56.job you want with Brown-esque desire is potentially never to be yours
:34:57. > :35:02.what do you do? He is, of course, an American citizen by birth. He was
:35:03. > :35:07.born in New York public hospital, and so he is qualified to be
:35:08. > :35:11.President of the United States. And you don't need an IQ over 16 to find
:35:12. > :35:17.that the tiniest bit scary. Giles Dilnot reporting. Helen Lewis,
:35:18. > :35:24.Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates are here. Is there a plan for Boris and
:35:25. > :35:28.if so, what is it? I think the plan is for him to say what he thinks the
:35:29. > :35:34.Tory activist base wants to hear just now. He knows that in 18 months
:35:35. > :35:39.time they can disown it. I think he is wrong, the way the speech has
:35:40. > :35:45.played has a limited number of people. He has cross-party appeal.
:35:46. > :35:48.He has now reconfirmed to people that the Tories are the nasty party
:35:49. > :35:56.and they have been pretending to be modernised. Is it not the truth that
:35:57. > :36:01.he needs David Cameron to lose the 2015 election to become leader in
:36:02. > :36:07.this decade? It is very interesting watching his fortunes wax and wane.
:36:08. > :36:11.It always seems to happen in inverse proportion to how well David Cameron
:36:12. > :36:14.is doing in front of his own party. There is no small element of
:36:15. > :36:20.strategy about what we are doing here. The problem with Boris is that
:36:21. > :36:26.he's popular with the country, but not with the party's MPs and its
:36:27. > :36:30.hard-core supporters. This was an appeal to the grassroots this week.
:36:31. > :36:38.He is not the only potential candidate. If we were in some kind
:36:39. > :36:43.of circumstance where Boris was a runner to replace Mr Cameron, who
:36:44. > :36:52.with the other front the? I think it will skip a generation. The recent
:36:53. > :36:57.intake was ideological assertive. I do not buy the idea that it will be
:36:58. > :37:05.Jeremy Hunt against Michael Gove. I then, that generation will be
:37:06. > :37:12.tainted by being in government. It is interesting, what is he trying to
:37:13. > :37:15.pull? He is ideological. He does not believe in many things, but he
:37:16. > :37:20.believes in a few things quite deeply, and one is the idea of
:37:21. > :37:24.competition, both in business and academic selection. He has never
:37:25. > :37:34.been squeamish about expressing that. We do make mistakes sometimes,
:37:35. > :37:37.assuming he is entirely political. Look at all the Northern voters who
:37:38. > :37:45.will not vote for the Tories even though they are socially or economic
:37:46. > :37:51.the Conservatives. I do not think he helps. Who in the Tories would
:37:52. > :38:00.help? That is a tough question. To reason me has also been speaking to
:38:01. > :38:05.the hard right. -- Theresa May. I have been out with him at night It
:38:06. > :38:10.is like dining with a film star People are queueing up to speak to
:38:11. > :38:15.him. Educational selection is one of the few areas that he can offer He
:38:16. > :38:34.has gone liberal on immigration, as are made of London would have to.
:38:35. > :38:38.Hello, I'm Martyn Oates. Coming up on the Sunday Politics in the South
:38:39. > :38:42.West... Disarray in the wind industry as plans for a major wind
:38:43. > :38:49.farm off Devon's coastline are dropped... And for the next twenty
:38:50. > :38:52.minutes, I'm joined by Stephen Gilbert, Liberal Democrat MP for St
:38:53. > :38:55.Austell and Newquay and Chris Penberthy, Labour councillor from
:38:56. > :38:59.Plymouth, welcome both of you to the programme... It's been a dramatic
:39:00. > :39:01.week for both wind and water, with South West Water's announcement that
:39:02. > :39:05.it plans to freeze our bills. Meanwhile a rare Rainbow Coalition
:39:06. > :39:15.of MPs wants us all to be given the choice to buy our water from
:39:16. > :39:19.somebody else entirely. I think if we accept that the principle of
:39:20. > :39:22.competition which is being introduced for businesses and for
:39:23. > :39:27.charities and for public sector organisations will help drive down
:39:28. > :39:32.bills for those groups, then that should be extended to households and
:39:33. > :39:37.domestic residences. Any what customers should be able to shop
:39:38. > :39:42.around and find the best tariff and continue to drive down the cost of
:39:43. > :39:47.water. Thanks to botched privatisation it is too high. The
:39:48. > :39:55.government insists that water metering is key to this. I suggested
:39:56. > :39:59.that we pilot competition. Already eight out of ten households in this
:40:00. > :40:03.area are metered. It strikes me that we are ahead of the curve and this
:40:04. > :40:07.gives us an opportunity to bring competition into the domestic market
:40:08. > :40:17.and allow people to shop around and allow people to find cheaper water
:40:18. > :40:24.bills. John Redwood agrees. I know that when I am talking to people
:40:25. > :40:29.locally, fuel costs and water and food costs are worrying people. It
:40:30. > :40:35.seems bizarre that business can benefit from competition but local
:40:36. > :40:39.residents cannot. There was something of a shock on Tuesday when
:40:40. > :40:42.plans for one of the world's biggest offshore wind farms, just off the
:40:43. > :40:45.coast of North Devon, were suddenly scrapped. The ?4bn Atlantic Array
:40:46. > :40:49.would have powered nearly a million homes, but RWE npower said it was
:40:50. > :40:56.pulling the plug on the scheme because the economics no longer
:40:57. > :41:00.stacked up. Scott Bingham reports. The Atlantic Array had been battling
:41:01. > :41:05.strong head wounds from the first day. Councils rejected the scheme
:41:06. > :41:08.and there was a determined campaign against it claiming it would damage
:41:09. > :41:13.tourism and the environment. So there were plenty of local people
:41:14. > :41:17.delighted to hear of its apparent demise. They realise the way the
:41:18. > :41:22.wind is blowing and they realise that they need to put expensive
:41:23. > :41:27.money into this and it is no longer viable. The Atlantic Array would
:41:28. > :41:35.have been twice the size of this in London. The most recent plans from
:41:36. > :41:39.RWE npower would have seen up to 240 turbines off the North Devon coast.
:41:40. > :41:45.It would have covered an area of 200 square: Otters, about 77 square
:41:46. > :41:49.miles and the company claim the turbines could produce enough
:41:50. > :41:53.electricity to power 9000 homes. There was shock when the company
:41:54. > :41:59.suddenly pulled the plug on the ?4 billion project, but could the
:42:00. > :42:06.celebrations be premature. Those who are proclaiming victory should be
:42:07. > :42:10.careful of hubris, the wind is still there and it will still be
:42:11. > :42:14.attractive to others in the future. The company said the scheme was
:42:15. > :42:17.simply not viable considering the technical challenges and the current
:42:18. > :42:22.market conditions and those market conditions have not been helped by
:42:23. > :42:26.the uncertainty created by David Cameron's alleged green rubbish
:42:27. > :42:32.remarks and Ed Miliband's calls for an energy price freeze. Something
:42:33. > :42:37.which is so important, to keep the lights on, has become a political
:42:38. > :42:41.Punch and Judy show. Industry is saying we have got a bit of this
:42:42. > :42:47.going on for a while and we will keep our heads down. It affects new
:42:48. > :42:52.capital into the industry and across Europe, offshore wind is probably
:42:53. > :42:58.cutting back to 25 gigawatts because the money is not there. Optimists
:42:59. > :43:09.say the London array successfully overcame similar obstacle in ``
:43:10. > :43:17.obstacles. For now, the Atlantic Array looks dead in the water. Steve
:43:18. > :43:19.Crowther, UKIP chairman who led the campaign against the turbines in
:43:20. > :43:26.North Devon, welcome to the programme, but before we come to
:43:27. > :43:33.you... You work in government for the Energy Secretary and I imagine
:43:34. > :43:37.he was horrified. I think it was disappointing that they have taken
:43:38. > :43:42.this view. It is for technical reasons. It is to do with the
:43:43. > :43:46.complexity of being able to drive the foundations, deep into the sea
:43:47. > :43:51.bed. As Nick Harvey said, the wind resource is still there and as we
:43:52. > :43:55.move forward we know we will need ?110 billion worth of investment in
:43:56. > :44:00.energy generating infrastructure. We know we want to decarbonise our
:44:01. > :44:07.economy. Actually that resource will be harnessed at some point. This
:44:08. > :44:12.would have provided 17% of renewable energy in the South West. It is
:44:13. > :44:16.leaving a big home. We have seen from the Department a whole bunch of
:44:17. > :44:21.schemes which have been consulted. We must not think we are losing all
:44:22. > :44:25.our eggs in one basket. The wind resource will still be there. When
:44:26. > :44:31.firms look at the technical issues again, we might be considering
:44:32. > :44:35.another ad Atlantic Array. It is the costs associated. We know that
:44:36. > :44:40.Labour and the Green Party are saying that this would happen at
:44:41. > :44:44.once David Cameron started talking about rolling back green levies.
:44:45. > :44:52.Lord Teverson said as much last week. This is not pretend politics.
:44:53. > :44:58.The whole reason we have been going through an energy bill over a
:44:59. > :45:02.two`year period is to get in best confidence in the industry to make
:45:03. > :45:06.sure the lights stay on in the long`term in Britain. This is
:45:07. > :45:10.seriously undermining it, particularly the Treasury. George
:45:11. > :45:16.Osborne does not believe in this and he is driving David Cameron to a
:45:17. > :45:20.degree. It is a split in the Tories and Coalition government. For big
:45:21. > :45:31.businesses looking at investing, this is bound to create concern.
:45:32. > :45:36.Businesses want stability. I think that is why the discussions that are
:45:37. > :45:40.going on about how we move some of the green levies from energy bills
:45:41. > :45:45.onto general taxation need to be completed as quickly as possible and
:45:46. > :45:48.I am sure we will have an announcement by Thursday. What is
:45:49. > :45:52.also causing uncertainty is Labour's idea of a price freeze and
:45:53. > :45:56.if you look at the investment companies, the people who are taking
:45:57. > :46:01.these decisions, what they are saying is it is not actually the
:46:02. > :46:15.internal Coalition issues which are causing a reluctance to invest, it
:46:16. > :46:18.is the uncertainty of being unable to look ahead and see what the
:46:19. > :46:20.resume will look like them. That is a good point. You are contributing
:46:21. > :46:24.to this. Most companies are quite happy to offer a fixed term deals.
:46:25. > :46:30.Why does Ed Miliband have to get involved? The whole system needs
:46:31. > :46:35.looking at and to do that in a point at which the maximum price is
:46:36. > :46:42.frozen, just for 19 months, while that whole system is put in place,
:46:43. > :46:49.then we have more competition and a different regulator in the market.
:46:50. > :46:56.It is a short`term thing, prices are offered as frozen into the future
:46:57. > :47:02.and we have heard one company say they could do it. It is not a
:47:03. > :47:06.permanent freeze. It is 19 months. You cannot control what happens to
:47:07. > :47:12.prices before the freeze or after the freeze. Ed Miliband's own energy
:47:13. > :47:19.company have said that they will go out of business if this continues. I
:47:20. > :47:25.will bring in Steve Crowther. The discussion they are having is
:47:26. > :47:32.quibbling over details. You do not think this should continue. There
:47:33. > :47:36.are two different issues, Bristol Channel is the wrong place for a
:47:37. > :47:44.wind farm. The discussion of technical difficulties goes to show
:47:45. > :47:48.that. It is what we have been fighting this on. What is
:47:49. > :47:51.interesting is that you can see the disarray is not about the Bristol
:47:52. > :47:56.Channel, it is about the main parties. They have created an
:47:57. > :48:01.environment in which energy prices rocketing and now they are fighting
:48:02. > :48:05.over who can try and push them back. The ?18 billion a that year the
:48:06. > :48:10.climate change act is adding to costs is the nature of the problem.
:48:11. > :48:14.Ed Miliband is trying to do both things, create this environment of
:48:15. > :48:18.climate change course and at the same time trying to persuade energy
:48:19. > :48:22.companies not to put prices up. It is not surprising it does not work.
:48:23. > :48:27.The financiers that have been asked to put the money up for a building
:48:28. > :48:34.these projects are now saying no thanks. If you scrap wind, what
:48:35. > :48:37.would you do instead? One of the interesting things about the Bristol
:48:38. > :48:40.Channel and I noticed that one of the spokesman said this week that
:48:41. > :48:45.they would be looking for someone with less tidal range, everyone
:48:46. > :48:51.knows that the Bristol Channel has the highest tidal range in the world
:48:52. > :48:55.and one of the fastest tidal flows. It is a perfect location to mass
:48:56. > :48:59.produced tidal and green current energy. It was never the right place
:49:00. > :49:03.for this wind project. The idea that suddenly after all of these years in
:49:04. > :49:16.an inshore site that developers have found that the water was deeper than
:49:17. > :49:18.they thought were the sea bed was made of something different is
:49:19. > :49:21.ridiculous. Nigel Farage talks about the lights going out soon. It is
:49:22. > :49:25.true the lights will go off and he does not only say that, the chairman
:49:26. > :49:28.of Ofgem says it. There has been a catastrophic mismanagement of our
:49:29. > :49:34.energy policy over the last 20 years and we are facing blackouts.
:49:35. > :49:37.Fortunately, we have been offered a short`term bridge through shale gas
:49:38. > :49:46.which means we can buy ourselves the time to build proper power stations.
:49:47. > :49:49.The other thing we should not do is closing down perfectly serviceable
:49:50. > :49:56.power stations according to an EU dictate. There are six closing which
:49:57. > :50:02.are perfectly able to close the gap. We are fixated on targets. We are
:50:03. > :50:06.fixated on making sure that there is a planet we can lead to our
:50:07. > :50:10.children. There is nothing unethical about that. He is rolling his eyes.
:50:11. > :50:16.I suspect he does not think that climate change is happening. This is
:50:17. > :50:20.a clear policy imperative that we have to decarbonise our economy. We
:50:21. > :50:24.need to take the right steps to protect our environment for future
:50:25. > :50:28.dinner generations `` Michael generations. If you start thinking
:50:29. > :50:32.that climate change is not happening, we do not need to invest
:50:33. > :50:39.in renewables, it is a deathly debate. That is not my position. We
:50:40. > :50:43.support renewables providing they are supporting the reliable energy
:50:44. > :50:47.we need. We have clearly got to invest in the nuclear industry
:50:48. > :50:52.because that provides no carbon power of the sort of level that we
:50:53. > :50:57.need going into the future. UKIP and Nick Harvey would share the view
:50:58. > :51:02.that we rely too heavily on a small number of big foreign companies and
:51:03. > :51:06.that this flags up the problem. Possibly. What is interesting is
:51:07. > :51:11.when it comes to renewables there is lots more local ownership of
:51:12. > :51:15.renewable power generation. In Plymouth next year there will be a
:51:16. > :51:21.community share issue on a solar project. We are finding already that
:51:22. > :51:26.it saves money and saves carbon footprint. We can do that through
:51:27. > :51:32.local ownership, it does not have to be the big six. For me, that is a
:51:33. > :51:36.really exciting opportunity, to put control of power back in the hands
:51:37. > :51:41.of the people who use it. We have to leave it there. This week the
:51:42. > :51:44.government and the Bank of England announced that the Funding for
:51:45. > :51:46.Lending scheme will soon stop supporting mortgages, amid fears of
:51:47. > :51:50.another housing bubble and refocus on helping small businesses. But the
:51:51. > :51:54.Newton Abbot MP Anne Marie Morris is calling on ministers to do more for
:51:55. > :51:57.the micro businesses she says are the heartbeat of the community and
:51:58. > :52:04.the backbone of the economy. Jenny Kumah reports. Lee Kelly has been
:52:05. > :52:09.Tatooine for more than ten years in Okehampton, working out of a room at
:52:10. > :52:13.the back of his house. It is only this summer that he managed to have
:52:14. > :52:18.enough money to start this salon on an industrial estate in the town.
:52:19. > :52:24.How I did it was through pure hard work, saving, finding the right
:52:25. > :52:29.property, it took years and years. We looked at all aspects in the town
:52:30. > :52:34.centre and in the end we came out of the town centre to afford the rent.
:52:35. > :52:41.He used money raised by himself as he found it hard to get loans. Banks
:52:42. > :52:47.were not prepared to take the risk. You prepare business plans and you
:52:48. > :52:52.go there and you meet with people, you're met with hesitancy. I know it
:52:53. > :52:55.is not their fault, the budget is the same, everyone is struggling,
:52:56. > :53:02.but it should be made that little bit easier. You can ask, if you do
:53:03. > :53:07.not ask you do not get, but a lot of the time people do not get. This
:53:08. > :53:14.week Anne`Marie Morris raised these concerns in the House of Commons.
:53:15. > :53:16.Finance is being called for. The government has introduced the
:53:17. > :53:21.Funding for Lending scheme which has gone well, start`up loans have been
:53:22. > :53:28.extended, the enterprise plan has been very helpful. We cannot rest on
:53:29. > :53:33.our laurels. There are key issues which need to be addressed. The
:53:34. > :53:37.ministers suggested there could be changes, especially for those firms
:53:38. > :53:43.who wanted to appeal against the decision to refuse credit. Another
:53:44. > :53:50.member raised an issue about appeals amongst banks and I do not want to
:53:51. > :53:54.pre`empt my right honourable friend, the Chancellor, who will be giving
:53:55. > :54:00.the Autumn statement in a week's time, but I recommend that he
:54:01. > :54:05.attends the House on that day. Lee is determined that he will not be
:54:06. > :54:10.held back even if lenders continue to refuse to help him. I am feeling
:54:11. > :54:13.positive. I would like to expand, but it is hard to, because there is
:54:14. > :54:20.a lack of funding available and the banks do not want to lend money. I
:54:21. > :54:24.will struggle through, I will save and I will expand eventually,
:54:25. > :54:30.because I will not give up. Lee Kelly ending that report there from
:54:31. > :54:37.Jenny Kumah. Anne`Marie Morris wants the government to do more. There has
:54:38. > :54:40.been a report that says there is lots happening, but it is happening
:54:41. > :54:48.under so many different schemes it is difficult for small businesses to
:54:49. > :54:52.understand. There needs to be clearer information. We hear that
:54:53. > :54:57.the business rates are big sting and that is in the government's pocket.
:54:58. > :55:03.Local authorities can help. We are doing things to help and implement
:55:04. > :55:14.we are really positive about what we can do to support small businesses.
:55:15. > :55:18.There is an issue with business rates and there is a view over the
:55:19. > :55:22.next few months to review whether the regime is fit for the kind of
:55:23. > :55:27.businesses, the type of retail environment that we have going
:55:28. > :55:30.forward. They are based on the area that business occupies, not
:55:31. > :55:34.necessarily the value added to the economy. In the modern age with
:55:35. > :55:39.internet retailing, developing with lots of people in micro`businesses,
:55:40. > :55:51.perhaps run from home, rather than the High Street, I am not sure we
:55:52. > :55:54.have got it right with business rates. He is right, there is an
:55:55. > :55:56.opportunity to look again at whether that is right for the modern retail
:55:57. > :55:59.environment. Concerns about the potential changes to maternity and
:56:00. > :56:03.paternity leave. It could be spread out, shorter notice for employers,
:56:04. > :56:15.this would fall harshly on small businesses. People who are parents
:56:16. > :56:19.will recognise that spending time with their children when they are
:56:20. > :56:22.first`born and in their early years is important. Most business people
:56:23. > :56:27.have been parents as well. There is a balance to be struck, but we often
:56:28. > :56:31.talk in this country about working too long hours, not having the right
:56:32. > :56:35.worklife balance, most people I speak to want to spend time with
:56:36. > :56:42.their children when they are newly born. It is necessary to get the
:56:43. > :56:45.time right, not too much of a burden on businesses, but I think we should
:56:46. > :56:52.celebrate a step forward to reinforcing the family. You think it
:56:53. > :56:58.is not a big enough step. We need to think about how we balance family.
:56:59. > :57:01.The old assumption that it is the mother who stays at home and the
:57:02. > :57:06.father goes out to work is quite dated. If we are talking about small
:57:07. > :57:09.businesses, flexibility is key, because quite often, small
:57:10. > :57:14.businesses are started up by young people and young people in need to
:57:15. > :57:18.have families. We need to have a flexible approach, at the same point
:57:19. > :57:23.we know that time spent with children when they are young, helps
:57:24. > :57:28.attainment in the long term. That is really important for education. Now
:57:29. > :57:39.our regular round`up of the political week in the South West in
:57:40. > :57:44.sixty seconds... Cornwall Council sets an early budget for next year,
:57:45. > :57:47.including a council tax rise of nearly 2%. I think everyone is
:57:48. > :57:53.reluctant to do this, but we have to do it. We are in a situation where
:57:54. > :57:58.lack of government funding and support and huge cuts is making a
:57:59. > :58:07.difference. Cornish hotelier is refused a ruling to a gay couple and
:58:08. > :58:10.ruled against the Supreme Court. I am disappointed that they did not
:58:11. > :58:14.take the opportunity to make room for an alternative lifestyle and for
:58:15. > :58:18.our lifestyle. Anonymity or not for the Marine who murdered an Afghan
:58:19. > :58:23.insurgent, should he have been convicted of murder at all? I think
:58:24. > :58:27.this should be a separate offence for something like this, a killing
:58:28. > :58:34.on active service, an unlawful killing on active service. And
:58:35. > :58:44.farmers and beekeepers clash over an EU pesticide ban which comes into
:58:45. > :58:48.force today. We had the independently of Cornwall Council
:58:49. > :58:52.accusing the government of not giving them enough money, do you
:58:53. > :58:55.agree? Councils have to face difficult decisions and there are
:58:56. > :58:59.different ways of balancing the books and making those provisions.
:59:00. > :59:06.What the council has decided to do is put up council tax. I think we
:59:07. > :59:13.should have a fairer funding system. I think councillors face difficult
:59:14. > :59:19.decisions. Those in no particular problem in rural areas? There is a
:59:20. > :59:25.disproportionate amount of money going to urban areas. I do not
:59:26. > :59:32.underestimate the difficulties. I know the leader of the council
:59:33. > :59:36.thinks cities have a raw deal. It varies on the funding formula. In
:59:37. > :59:39.public health in Plymouth we get a fraction of what other areas get. We
:59:40. > :59:45.know that we have major problems with health and that is part of our
:59:46. > :59:50.funding formula. There are in balances in rural areas and in urban
:59:51. > :59:54.areas in the South West, we are deemed as rich by Westminster and we
:59:55. > :00:01.all know we are not. Turning to the issue of the Marine convicted of
:00:02. > :00:07.murder, what about this idea that there should be a separate lesser
:00:08. > :00:13.offence? I have not been across the detail. I have seen the newspapers.
:00:14. > :00:17.These should be matters for the court martial is for the military to
:00:18. > :00:24.look at themselves. They would have to create a new offence. It sounded
:00:25. > :00:31.pretty clear that he was taking the steps that he was found guilty of,
:00:32. > :00:36.so I am not sure. They have to found him `` they have to find him guilty
:00:37. > :00:41.of the offence on the statute. It was pretty horrific. Where we send
:00:42. > :00:47.our forces out to do a difficult job, we expect them to uphold the
:00:48. > :00:56.values that we are sending them there to do. What do you think?
:00:57. > :01:04.Having spoken to Marines in my own ward, a lot of Marines were feeling
:01:05. > :01:17.quite worried about how they were going to be viewed because of this.
:01:18. > :01:18.It was really disturbing, listening Tacloban I knew different offence or
:01:19. > :01:26.not? That is really up to picked out. People thought he was
:01:27. > :01:41.touching on eugenics and things like that. That is all we have time for.
:01:42. > :01:47.Thank you. What rabbit has George Osborne got up his sleeve? And
:01:48. > :01:54.what's David Cameron up to in China? All questions for The Week Ahead. To
:01:55. > :02:02.help the panel led, we are joined by Kwasi Kwarteng, Tory MP. Welcome to
:02:03. > :02:06.the Sunday Politics. Why has the government been unable to move the
:02:07. > :02:10.agenda and to the broad economic recovery, and allowed the agenda to
:02:11. > :02:15.stay on Labour's ground of energy prices and living standards? Energy
:02:16. > :02:20.has been a big issue over the last few months but the autumn state and
:02:21. > :02:23.will be a wonderful opportunity to readdress where we are fighting the
:02:24. > :02:29.ground, the good economic news that we delivered. If you look at where
:02:30. > :02:33.Labour were earlier this year, people were saying they would they 5
:02:34. > :02:43.million people unemployed. They were saying that there should be a plan
:02:44. > :02:47.B. He is not in the Labour Party? Elements of the left were suggesting
:02:48. > :02:52.it. Peter Hain told me it would be up to 3 million people. Danny
:02:53. > :02:57.Blanchflower said it would be 5 million people. So we have got to
:02:58. > :03:03.get the economy back to the centre of the debate? Yes, the game we were
:03:04. > :03:06.playing was about the economy. That was the central fighting ground of
:03:07. > :03:12.the political debate. We were winning that battle. Labour have
:03:13. > :03:16.cleverly shifted it onto the cost of living. It is essential that the
:03:17. > :03:27.government, that George, talks about the economy. That has been its great
:03:28. > :03:30.success. I do not think this has been a week of admitting that Labour
:03:31. > :03:38.was right, plain cigarettes packaging, other issues. If you look
:03:39. > :03:43.at the big picture, where we are with the economy, we have the
:03:44. > :03:47.fastest growing economy in the G-7. Despite Labour's predictions, none
:03:48. > :03:53.of this has happened, none of the triple dip has happened. The British
:03:54. > :03:59.economy is on a good fitting. That is a good story for the government
:04:00. > :04:02.to bat on. You say that people have stopped talking about the economic
:04:03. > :04:08.recovery, but it is worse than that, people have stopped talking about
:04:09. > :04:12.the deficit? As long as people were talking about the deficit, the
:04:13. > :04:17.Tories were trusted. But people have forgotten about it. This country
:04:18. > :04:24.still spends ?100 billion more than it raises. Yes, I am of the view
:04:25. > :04:29.that the deficit, the national debt, is the biggest question facing
:04:30. > :04:32.this generation of politicians. You are right to suggest that the
:04:33. > :04:39.Conservative Party was strong on this. That head, not deficit, is not
:04:40. > :04:44.going to come down in the foreseeable future? It is rising.
:04:45. > :04:48.This is a test that George Osborne is not going to pass. We know what
:04:49. > :04:53.is coming in the Autumn Statement, it is lots of giveaways, paying for
:04:54. > :04:58.free school meals, paying for fuel duty subsidies. We are still talking
:04:59. > :05:04.about the cost of living, not changing it actively wider economy.
:05:05. > :05:11.There might be extra money for growth but it is not clear what will
:05:12. > :05:15.happen to that. If it is time for giveaways, let's speak about Labour.
:05:16. > :05:23.I have never been a fan of giveaways. Fiscal prudence is what
:05:24. > :05:28.our watchword should be. Look at the headlines. Each time, the deficit
:05:29. > :05:33.figures, the debt figures, were always worse than predicted. This
:05:34. > :05:39.year it will be significantly better. I think that is significant.
:05:40. > :05:44.Any kind of recovery is probably better than no recovery at all. When
:05:45. > :05:50.you look at this recovery, it is basically a consumer spending boom.
:05:51. > :05:57.Consumer spending is up, business investment is way down compared with
:05:58. > :06:03.2008, and exports, despite a 20 devaluation, our flat. Let's get one
:06:04. > :06:09.thing straight, it is a recovery. Any recovery is better than no
:06:10. > :06:14.recovery. Now we can have a debate about, technical debate about the
:06:15. > :06:20.elements of the recovery. It is not technical, it is a fact. There is
:06:21. > :06:26.evidence that there is optimism in terms of what are thinking...
:06:27. > :06:32.Optimism? If I am optimistic about the economy, I am more likely to
:06:33. > :06:38.spend money and invest in business. So far you have not managed that?
:06:39. > :06:42.Exports have not done well either? Exports are not a big section of the
:06:43. > :06:48.British economy. But of course, they are important. But given where we
:06:49. > :06:53.were at the end of last year, no economist was saying that we would
:06:54. > :07:01.be in this robust position today. That is true, in terms of the
:07:02. > :07:04.overall recovery. Now the PM loves to "bang the drum abroad for British
:07:05. > :07:07.business" and he's off to China this evening with a plane-load of British
:07:08. > :07:38.business leaders. And it's not the first time. Take a look at this
:07:39. > :08:04.Well, you might not think exports unimportant, but clearly the Prime
:08:05. > :08:09.Minister and the Chancellor do. They are important, but they are not what
:08:10. > :08:14.is driving the growth at the moment. We used to talk about the need for
:08:15. > :08:18.export led recovery is, that is why the Prime Minister is going to
:08:19. > :08:23.China. Absolutely, and he's doing the right thing. Do we have any
:08:24. > :08:29.evidence that these tend of trips produce business? The main example
:08:30. > :08:35.so far is the right to trade the Chinese currency offshore. London
:08:36. > :08:40.has a kind of global primacy. London will be the offshore centre. Is that
:08:41. > :08:44.a good thing? I have no problem at all with this sort of policy. I do
:08:45. > :08:48.not think that Britain has been doing this enough compared with
:08:49. > :08:54.France and Germany in recent years. I am optimistic in the long term
:08:55. > :09:01.about this dish -- about British exports to China. China need machine
:09:02. > :09:05.tools and manufacturing products. In 20 years time, China will be buying
:09:06. > :09:11.professional groups, educational services, the things we excel at.
:09:12. > :09:16.All we need to do is consolidate our strengths, stand still and we will
:09:17. > :09:19.move forward. The worst thing we can do is reengineer the economy towards
:09:20. > :09:26.those services and away from something else. We have a lot of
:09:27. > :09:31.ground to make up, Helen? At one stage, it is no longer true, but at
:09:32. > :09:35.one stage you could say that we exported more to Ireland, a country
:09:36. > :09:43.of 4 million people, than we did to Russia, China, India, Brazil, all
:09:44. > :09:50.combined. I believe we form 1% of Chinese imports now. The problem is
:09:51. > :09:55.what you have to give up in exchange for that. It is a big problem for
:09:56. > :10:02.David Cameron's credibility that he has had to row back on his meeting
:10:03. > :10:06.with the Dalai llama. This trip we have been in the deep freeze with
:10:07. > :10:12.China for a couple of years. This trip has come at a high cost. We
:10:13. > :10:15.have had to open up the City of London to Chinese banks without much
:10:16. > :10:20.scrutiny, we have had to move the date of the Autumn Statement, and
:10:21. > :10:24.there is no mention of human rights. It is awkward to deal with that all
:10:25. > :10:32.in the name of getting up to where we were a few years ago. A month
:10:33. > :10:35.after strong anchor -- one month after Sri Lanka, where he apologised
:10:36. > :10:42.three human rights abuses, this is difficult to take. Do we have any
:10:43. > :10:46.idea what the Prime Minister hopes to do in China this time? I am not
:10:47. > :10:51.sure there is anything specific but when you go to these countries,
:10:52. > :10:55.certainly in the Middle East China, they complain, why has the Prime
:10:56. > :11:00.Minister not come to see us? That is very important. High-level
:11:01. > :11:05.delegations from other countries go to these places because the addict
:11:06. > :11:17.-- because they are important export markets. You might look at the Prime
:11:18. > :11:21.Minister playing cricket over there, and wonder, what is that for? I do
:11:22. > :11:26.not mind the Prime Minister Rajoy cricket. This is a high visibility
:11:27. > :11:32.mission, chose that politicians in Britain care. You are part of the
:11:33. > :11:36.free enterprise group. It had all sorts of things on it like tax cuts
:11:37. > :11:44.for those on middle incomes or above the 40% bracket, tax cuts worth 16
:11:45. > :11:50.billion. You will get none of that on Thursday, we are agreed? No. But
:11:51. > :11:57.he does have two budgets between now and the election and if the fiscal
:11:58. > :12:01.position is using a little bit, he may have more leeway than it looked
:12:02. > :12:07.like a couple of months ago. Yes, from a free enter prise point of
:12:08. > :12:12.view, we have looked at the tax cuts that should be looked at. The 4 p
:12:13. > :12:18.rate comes in at quite a low level for people who, in the south-east,
:12:19. > :12:25.do not feel particularly wealthy. They are spending a lot of money on
:12:26. > :12:29.commuting, energy bills. The Chancellor has been very open about
:12:30. > :12:34.championing this. He says that the 40p rate will kick in at a slightly
:12:35. > :12:38.higher rate. Labour had a bad summer and the opinion polls seem to be
:12:39. > :12:44.narrowing. Then they had a good hearty conference season. The best.
:12:45. > :12:48.Has the Labour lead solidified or increased the little, maybe up to
:12:49. > :12:52.eight points? If it is a good Autumn Statement, or the Tories start to
:12:53. > :12:59.narrow that lead by the end of the year? If they go into 2014 trailing
:13:00. > :13:04.by single digits, they cannot complain too much. That gives them
:13:05. > :13:09.18 months to chip away at Labour's lead. But do they do that chipping
:13:10. > :13:13.away by eight bidding Labour or do they let time take its course and
:13:14. > :13:18.let the economic recovery continue, maybe business investment joins
:13:19. > :13:21.consumer spending as a source of that recovery, and a year from now,
:13:22. > :13:30.household disposable income begins to rise? That is a better hope than
:13:31. > :13:32.engaging in a bidding war. Be assured, they will be highly
:13:33. > :13:36.political budgets. That's all for today. The Daily Politics is on BBC
:13:37. > :13:39.Two at midday all this week, except on Thursday when we'll start at
:13:40. > :13:42.10:45 to bring you live coverage and analysis of the Chancellor's Autumn
:13:43. > :13:46.Statement in a Daily Politics special for BBC Two and the BBC News
:13:47. > :13:49.Channel. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.