:00:38. > :00:46.Good morning, welcome. 2014 is barely under way, and the
:00:47. > :00:51.coalition is fighting over cuts. Nick Legg says Tory plans to balance
:00:52. > :00:54.the books would hit the poorest hardest. He will not say what he
:00:55. > :00:59.will cut. That is the top story. Chris Grayling called for a
:01:00. > :01:04.completely new deal with Europe as he battles will rings from the
:01:05. > :01:09.European Court of Human Rights. He joins me.
:01:10. > :01:10.Labour promises to shift house-building up a gear, but how
:01:11. > :01:16.will they get a In the South West: The problem of
:01:17. > :01:19.bed blocking at the region's hospitals, and the gypsy and
:01:20. > :01:21.traveller debate returns as another plan to provide legal pitches is
:01:22. > :01:23.scrapped. be serious. Have cuts left to the
:01:24. > :01:39.service being overstretched? With me for the duration, a top trio
:01:40. > :01:43.of political pundits, Helen Lewis, Jan and Ganesh and Nick Watt. They
:01:44. > :01:51.will be tweeting faster than France or long scoots through Paris. Nick
:01:52. > :01:55.Clegg sticks to his New Year resolution to sock it to the Tories,
:01:56. > :02:00.the is how he described Tory plans for another 12 billion of cuts on
:02:01. > :02:04.welfare after the next election. You cannot say, as the Conservatives
:02:05. > :02:07.are, that we are all in it together and then say that the welfare will
:02:08. > :02:11.not make any additional contributions from their taxes if
:02:12. > :02:14.there is a Conservative government after 2015 in the ongoing effort to
:02:15. > :02:22.balance the books. We are not even going to ask that very wealthy
:02:23. > :02:27.people who have retired who have benefits, paid for by the
:02:28. > :02:32.hard-pressed taxpayers, will make a sacrifice. The Conservatives appear
:02:33. > :02:37.to be saying only the working age pork will be asked to make
:02:38. > :02:40.additional sacrifices to fill the remaining buckle in the public
:02:41. > :02:46.finances. Nick Legg eating up on the Tories
:02:47. > :02:52.a, happens almost every day. I understand it is called aggressive
:02:53. > :02:59.differentiation. Will it work for them? It has not for the past two
:03:00. > :03:03.years. This began around the time of the AV referendum campaign, that is
:03:04. > :03:08.what poisoned the relations between the parties. They have been trying
:03:09. > :03:13.to differentiation since then, they are still at barely 10% in the
:03:14. > :03:19.polls, Nick Clegg's personal ratings are horrendous, so I doubt they will
:03:20. > :03:23.do much before the next election. It is interesting it has been combined
:03:24. > :03:28.with aggressive flirtation with Ed Balls and the Labour Party. There
:03:29. > :03:33.was always going to be some sort of rapprochement between them and the
:03:34. > :03:37.Labour Party, it is in the Labour Party's interests, and it is intent
:03:38. > :03:42.macro's interests, not to be defined as somebody who can only do deals
:03:43. > :03:46.with the centre-right. A colleague of yours, Helen, told me there was
:03:47. > :03:51.more talk behind closed doors in the Labour Party high command, they have
:03:52. > :03:55.to think about winning the election in terms of being the largest party,
:03:56. > :04:00.but not necessarily an overall majority. There is a feeling it was
:04:01. > :04:03.foolish before the last election not to have any thought about what a
:04:04. > :04:09.coalition might be, but the language has changed. Ed Miliband had said, I
:04:10. > :04:16.cannot deal with this man, but now, I have to be prismatic, it is about
:04:17. > :04:20.principles. Even Ed Balls. Nick Clegg had specifically said that Ed
:04:21. > :04:25.Balls was the man in politics that he hated. He said that was just a
:04:26. > :04:31.joke. Of course, it is about principles, not people! When Ed
:04:32. > :04:36.Balls said those nice things about Nick Clegg, he said, I understood
:04:37. > :04:40.the need to get a credible deficit reduction programme, although he
:04:41. > :04:44.said Nick Clegg went too far. The thing about Nick Clegg, he feels
:04:45. > :04:46.liberated, he bears the wounds from the early days of the coalition,
:04:47. > :04:46.liberated, he bears the wounds from the early days of the coalition and
:04:47. > :04:52.the early days of the coalition, and maybe those winds will haunt him all
:04:53. > :04:58.the way to the general election But he feels liberated, he says, we will
:04:59. > :05:01.be the restraining influence on both the Conservatives, who cannot insure
:05:02. > :05:05.that the recovery is fair, and the Labour Party, that do not have
:05:06. > :05:08.economic red ability. He feels relaxed, and that is why he is
:05:09. > :05:17.attacking the Tories and appearing pretty relaxed. He could also be
:05:18. > :05:21.falling into a trap. The Tories think what they suggesting on
:05:22. > :05:26.welfare cuts is possible. The more he attacks it, the more Tories will
:05:27. > :05:31.say, if you gave us an overall majority, he is the one it. He keeps
:05:32. > :05:34.taking these ostensibly on popular positions and it only makes sense
:05:35. > :05:39.when you talk to them behind the scenes, they are going after a tiny
:05:40. > :05:46.slice of the electorate, 20%, who are open to the idea of voting Lib
:05:47. > :05:53.Dem, and their views are a bit more left liberal than the bulk of the
:05:54. > :05:59.public. There is a perverse logic in them aggressively targeting that
:06:00. > :06:02.section of voters. In the end, ten macro's problem, if you do not like
:06:03. > :06:07.what this coalition has been doing, you will not vote for somebody who
:06:08. > :06:16.was part of it, you will vote for the Labour Party. The Tories are too
:06:17. > :06:18.nasty, Labour are to spendthrift, Lib Dem, a quarter of their vote has
:06:19. > :06:25.gone to Labour, and that is what could hand the largest party to
:06:26. > :06:29.Labour. That small number of voters, soft Tory voters, the problem for
:06:30. > :06:34.the Liberal Democrats is, if you fight, as they did, three general
:06:35. > :06:37.elections to the left of the Labour Party, and at the end of the third,
:06:38. > :06:43.you find yourself in Colour Vision with the Conservatives, you have a
:06:44. > :06:50.problem. Chris Grayling is a busy man, he has
:06:51. > :06:54.had to deal with aid riot at HM Prison Oakwood, barristers on strike
:06:55. > :07:05.and unhappy probation officers taking industrial action.
:07:06. > :07:15.Prison works. It ensures that we are protected from murderers, muggers
:07:16. > :07:24.and rapists. It makes many who are tempted to commit crime think twice.
:07:25. > :07:28.Traditional Tory policy on criminal justice and prisons has been tough
:07:29. > :07:33.talking and tough dealing. Not only have they tended to think what they
:07:34. > :07:37.are offering is right, but have had the feeling, you thinking what they
:07:38. > :07:43.thinking. But nearly two decades after Michael Howard's message, his
:07:44. > :07:46.party, in Colour Vision government, is finding prison has to work like
:07:47. > :07:51.everything else within today's financial realities. The Justice
:07:52. > :07:57.Secretary for two years after the election had previous in this field.
:07:58. > :08:03.Ken Clarke. Early on, he signalled a change of direction. Just binding up
:08:04. > :08:08.more and more people for longer without actively seeking to change
:08:09. > :08:17.them is, in my opinion, what you would expect of Victorian England.
:08:18. > :08:24.The key to keeping people out of prison now, it seems, is giving them
:08:25. > :08:28.in a job, on release. Ironically, Ken Clarke was released from his job
:08:29. > :08:35.15 months ago and replaced by Chris Grayling. But here, within HM Prison
:08:36. > :08:38.Liverpool, Timpson has been working since 2009 with chosen offenders to
:08:39. > :08:42.offer training and the chance of a job. Before you ask, they do not
:08:43. > :08:47.teach them keep cutting in a category B prison. The Academy is
:08:48. > :08:53.deliberately meant to look like a company store, not a prison. It
:08:54. > :08:57.helps. You forget where you are at times, it feels weird, going back to
:08:58. > :09:05.a wing at the end of the day. It is different. A different atmosphere.
:09:06. > :09:09.That is why people like it. Timpson have six academies in prisons,
:09:10. > :09:13.training prisoners inside, and outside they offer jobs to
:09:14. > :09:16.ex-offenders, who make up 8% of their staff. It has been hard work
:09:17. > :09:24.persuading some governors that such cooperation can work. I have seen a
:09:25. > :09:27.dramatic change positively, working with prisoners, particularly in the
:09:28. > :09:35.last five years. They understand now what business's expectation is.
:09:36. > :09:40.Timpson do not just employ offenders, but as one ex-prisoner
:09:41. > :09:43.released in February and now managing his own store says, the
:09:44. > :09:50.point is many others will not employ offenders at all. From what I have
:09:51. > :09:54.experienced, on one hand, you have somebody with a criminal conviction,
:09:55. > :09:57.on the other, somebody who does not have one, so it is a case of
:09:58. > :10:02.favouring those who have a clean record. Anybody with a criminal
:10:03. > :10:08.conviction is passed to one side and overlooked. That, amongst myriad
:10:09. > :10:13.other changes to prison and how we deal with prisoners, is on the desk
:10:14. > :10:17.of the man at the top. Ever since Chris Grayling became Secretary of
:10:18. > :10:20.State for Justice, he has wanted to signal a change of direction of
:10:21. > :10:25.policy, and he is in a hurry to make radical reforms across the board,
:10:26. > :10:29.from size and types of prisons to probation services, reoffending
:10:30. > :10:33.rates, legal aid services, and there has been opposition to that from
:10:34. > :10:36.groups who do not agree with him. But what might actually shackle him
:10:37. > :10:39.is none of that. It is the fact that he is in government with a party
:10:40. > :10:44.that does not always agree with him, he has to abide by the rulings of
:10:45. > :10:49.the European Court of Human Rights, and in those famous words, there is
:10:50. > :10:55.no money left. We would like to go further and faster. I would like him
:10:56. > :10:59.too, but we are where we are. If the Liberal Democrats want to be wiped
:11:00. > :11:03.out at the next election based on what they believe, that is fair
:11:04. > :11:08.enough. We accept there has to be savings, but there are areas where
:11:09. > :11:16.we feel that there is ideological driven policy-making going on, and
:11:17. > :11:22.privatising may not save any money at all, and so does not make any
:11:23. > :11:30.sense. The question is, we'll all of that means some of Chris Grayling's
:11:31. > :11:40.reforms need closer inspection? Chris Grayling joins me now.
:11:41. > :11:47.Welcome. We have a lot to cover. If you get your way, your own personal
:11:48. > :11:49.way, will be next Tory manifesto promise to withdraw from the
:11:50. > :11:58.European Convention of human rights? It will contain a promise
:11:59. > :12:02.for radical changes. We have to curtail the role of the European
:12:03. > :12:06.court here, replace our human rights act from the late 1990s, make our
:12:07. > :12:09.Supreme Court our Supreme Court, Supreme Court our Supreme Court
:12:10. > :12:13.they can be no question of decisions over riding it elsewhere, and we
:12:14. > :12:18.have to have a situation where our laws contain a balance of rights and
:12:19. > :12:22.responsibilities. People talk about knowing their rights, but they do
:12:23. > :12:28.not accept they have responsible it is. This is what you said last
:12:29. > :12:37.September, I want to see our Supreme Court being supreme again... That is
:12:38. > :12:42.clear, but let's be honest, the Supreme Court cannot be supreme as
:12:43. > :12:45.long as its decisions can be referred to the European Court in
:12:46. > :12:52.Strasbourg. There is clearly an issue, that was raised recency --
:12:53. > :12:55.recently. We have been working on a detailed reform plan, we will
:12:56. > :13:00.publish that in the not too distant future. What we will set out is a
:13:01. > :13:05.direction of travel for a new Conservative government that will
:13:06. > :13:08.mean wholesale change in this area. You already tried to reform the
:13:09. > :13:15.European Court, who had this declaration in 2012, do you accept
:13:16. > :13:19.that the reform is off the table? There is still a process of reform,
:13:20. > :13:23.but it is not going fast enough and not delivering the kind of change we
:13:24. > :13:26.need. That is why we will bring forward a package that for the
:13:27. > :13:31.different from that and will set a different direction of travel. We
:13:32. > :13:36.are clear across the coalition, we have a different view from our
:13:37. > :13:43.colleagues. You cannot be half pregnant on this, either our
:13:44. > :13:47.decisions from our Supreme Court are subject to the European Cup or not,
:13:48. > :13:51.in which case, we are not part of the European court. I hope you will
:13:52. > :13:54.see from our proposals we have come up with a sensible strategy that
:13:55. > :14:00.deals with this issue once and for all. Can we be part of the
:14:01. > :14:04.Strasbourg court and yet our Supreme Court be supreme? That is by point,
:14:05. > :14:09.we have to curtail the role of the court in the UK. I am clear that is
:14:10. > :14:16.what we will seek to do. It is what we will do for this country. But
:14:17. > :14:20.how? I am not going to announce the package of policies today, but we
:14:21. > :14:23.will go into the next election with a clear strategy that will curtail
:14:24. > :14:30.the role of the European Court of Human Rights in the UK. The
:14:31. > :14:34.decisions have to be taken in Parliament in this country. Are you
:14:35. > :14:36.sure that you have got your own side on this? Look at what the Attorney
:14:37. > :15:02.General says. I would be asking Strasberg a
:15:03. > :15:08.different question to that. If the best in class, he is saying is
:15:09. > :15:12.enough is enough, actually somebody in Strasberg should be asking if
:15:13. > :15:14.this has gone the way it should have done. I would love to see wholesale
:15:15. > :15:18.reform in the court tomorrow, I m reform in the court tomorrow, I'm
:15:19. > :15:23.not sure it is going to happen which is why we are going to the election
:15:24. > :15:29.with a clear plan for this country. Would you want that to be a red line
:15:30. > :15:35.in any coalition agreement? My mission is to win the next election
:15:36. > :15:40.with a majority. But you have to say where your red lines would be. We
:15:41. > :15:42.have been very clear it is an area where we don't agree as parties,
:15:43. > :15:45.have been very clear it is an area where we don't agree as parties but
:15:46. > :15:50.in my view the public in this country are overwhelmingly behind
:15:51. > :15:54.the Conservative party. 95 Conservative MPs have written to the
:15:55. > :15:58.Prime Minister, demanding he gives the House of Commons the authority
:15:59. > :16:03.to veto any aspect of European Union law. Are you one of the people who
:16:04. > :16:08.wanted to sign that letter but you couldn't because you are minister? I
:16:09. > :16:22.haven't been asked to sign the letter. We need a red card system
:16:23. > :16:27.for European law. I'm not convinced my colleagues... I don't think it is
:16:28. > :16:31.realistic to have a situation where one parliament can veto laws across
:16:32. > :16:35.the European Union. I understand the concerns of my colleagues, but when
:16:36. > :16:41.we set out to renegotiate our membership, we have got to deliver
:16:42. > :16:44.renegotiation and deliver a system which is viable, and I'm not
:16:45. > :16:48.convinced we can have a situation where one Parliament can prevent
:16:49. > :16:55.laws across the whole European Union. So you wouldn't have signed
:16:56. > :17:04.this letter? I'm not sure it is the right approach. I support the system
:17:05. > :17:07.I just talked about. Iain Duncan Smith has suggested EU migrants
:17:08. > :17:11.coming to work in this country should have to wait for two years
:17:12. > :17:18.before they qualify for welfare benefits, do you agree? Yes, I think
:17:19. > :17:22.there should be an assumption that before you can move from one country
:17:23. > :17:27.to another, before you can start to take back from that country's social
:17:28. > :17:33.welfare system, you should have made a contribution to it. I spent two
:17:34. > :17:36.and a half years working in Brussels trying to get the European
:17:37. > :17:41.Commission to accept the need for change. There is a groundswell of
:17:42. > :17:45.opinion out there which is behind Iain Duncan Smith in what he is
:17:46. > :17:49.saying. I think we should push for a clear system that says people should
:17:50. > :17:55.be able to move from one country to get a job, but to move to another
:17:56. > :18:03.country to live off the state is not acceptable. You are planning a new
:18:04. > :18:07.2000 capacity mega prison and other smaller presence which will be run
:18:08. > :18:13.by private firms. After what has happened with G4S, why would you do
:18:14. > :18:19.that? No decision has been made about whether it will be public or
:18:20. > :18:27.private. What do you think it will be? I'm not sure yet. There is no
:18:28. > :18:32.clear correlation over public and private prisons and whether there
:18:33. > :18:37.are problems or otherwise. Oakwood is in its early stages, it has had
:18:38. > :18:42.teething problems at the start, but the rate of disturbance there is
:18:43. > :18:49.only typical for an average prison of its category. If you take an
:18:50. > :18:55.example of Parc prison in Wales a big private run prison, run by G4S,
:18:56. > :18:59.when it was first launched under the last government it had teething
:19:00. > :19:04.problems of the same kind as Oakwood and is now regarded as one of the
:19:05. > :19:09.best performing prisons. Why would you give it to a private company
:19:10. > :19:15.then? We have only just got planning permission for the so we will not be
:19:16. > :19:22.thinking about this for another few years. Some of the companies who run
:19:23. > :19:29.prisons are under investigation with dreadful track records. In the case
:19:30. > :19:32.of G4S, what we have experienced is acceptable and they have not been
:19:33. > :19:36.able to go ahead with a number of contracts they might have otherwise
:19:37. > :19:43.got. They are having to prove to the Government they are fit to win
:19:44. > :19:47.contracts from the Government again. They are having to pay compensation
:19:48. > :19:53.to the Government and the taxpayer. What has happened is unacceptable.
:19:54. > :20:04.So why would you give them a 20 0 capacity mega prison? Or anyone like
:20:05. > :20:09.them? It cannot be said that every private company is bad. In addition
:20:10. > :20:13.to problems at Oakwood, you are quite unique now in your position
:20:14. > :20:18.that you have managed to get the barristers out on strike the first
:20:19. > :20:25.time since history began. What happens if the bar refuses to do
:20:26. > :20:30.work at your new rates of legal aid and the courts grind to a halt? I
:20:31. > :20:35.don't believe that will happen. When the barristers came out on strike,
:20:36. > :20:39.three quarters of Crown Courts were operating normally, 95% of
:20:40. > :20:44.magistrates courts were operating normally. We are having to take
:20:45. > :20:49.difficult decisions across government, I have no desire to cut
:20:50. > :20:55.back lately but we are spending over ?2 billion on legal aid at the
:20:56. > :21:00.moment at a time when budgets are becoming tougher. You issued
:21:01. > :21:06.misleading figures about criminal barristers, you said that 25% of
:21:07. > :21:12.them earn over ?100,000 per year but that is their turnover, including
:21:13. > :21:17.VAT. 33% of that money goes on their expenses, they have to pay for their
:21:18. > :21:24.own pensions and insurance. People are not getting wealthy out of doing
:21:25. > :21:29.this work. I don't publish figures, our statisticians do, with caveats
:21:30. > :21:32.in place explaining the situation. Where you have high-cost cases,
:21:33. > :21:38.where we have taken the most difficult decisions, we have tried
:21:39. > :21:47.hard in taking difficult decisions to focus the impact higher up the
:21:48. > :21:53.income scale. But do you accept their take-home pay is not 100,000?
:21:54. > :21:57.I accept they have to take out other costs, although some things like
:21:58. > :22:09.travelling to the court, you and I and everyone else has to pay for
:22:10. > :22:14.travelling to work. That is net of VAT. We have had a variety of
:22:15. > :22:21.figures published, some are and some are not. Let's be clear, the gross
:22:22. > :22:26.figures for fees from legal payments include 20% VAT. On a week when even
:22:27. > :22:36.a cabinet minister can be fitted up by the police, don't we all need
:22:37. > :22:39.well-financed legal aid? There is no chance that as a result
:22:40. > :22:52.well-financed legal aid? There is no changes people will end up in court
:22:53. > :22:55.unable to defend themselves. We have said in exceptional circumstances,
:22:56. > :22:59.if you haven't got any money to pay, we will support you, but there is no
:23:00. > :23:04.question of anyone ended up in court, facing a criminal charge
:23:05. > :23:10.where they haven't got a lawyer to defend them. Let's look at how so
:23:11. > :23:15.many dangerous criminals have managed to avoid jail. Here are the
:23:16. > :23:25.figures for 2012. Half the people for sexual assault found guilty, not
:23:26. > :23:32.jailed. I thought you were meant to be tough on crime? Those figures
:23:33. > :23:36.predate my time, but since 2010 the number of those people going to jail
:23:37. > :23:41.has been increasing steadily. If you put the figures for 2010 on there,
:23:42. > :23:47.you would see a significant change. We will never be in a position where
:23:48. > :23:51.everybody who commits violence will end up in jail. The courts will
:23:52. > :23:55.often decided to his more appropriate to give a community
:23:56. > :24:00.sentence, but the trend is towards longer sentences and more people
:24:01. > :24:07.going to jail. That maybe but it is even quite hard to get sent to jail
:24:08. > :24:12.if you do these things a lot, again and again. In 2012 one criminal
:24:13. > :24:22.avoided being sent to jail despite having more than 300 offences to his
:24:23. > :24:27.name. 36,000 avoided going to jail despite 15 previous offences. That
:24:28. > :24:32.is why we are taking steps to toughen up the system. Last autumn
:24:33. > :24:38.we scrapped repeat cautions. You could find people getting dozens. As
:24:39. > :24:40.of last autumn, we have scrapped repeat cautions. If you commit the
:24:41. > :24:45.same offence twice within a two year same offence twice within a two-year
:24:46. > :24:51.period you will go to court. You still might end up not going to
:24:52. > :24:56.jail. More and more people are going to jail. I cannot just magic another
:24:57. > :25:01.34,000 prison places. You haven t 34,000 prison places. You haven't
:25:02. > :25:06.got room to put bad people in jail? The courts will take the decisions,
:25:07. > :25:12.and it is for them to take the decisions and not me, that two men
:25:13. > :25:18.in a bar fight do not merit a jail sentence. These figures contain a
:25:19. > :25:23.huge amount of offences from the most minor of offences to the most
:25:24. > :25:27.despicable. Something is wrong if you can commit 300 offences and
:25:28. > :25:33.still not end up in jail. That's right, and we are taking steps so
:25:34. > :25:39.this cannot happen any more. Nick Clegg said this morning you are
:25:40. > :25:48.going to make 12 billion of welfare cuts on the back of this, he is
:25:49. > :25:56.right, isn't he? People on the lowest incomes are often not paying
:25:57. > :26:02.tax at all, the rich... But these cuts will fall disproportionately on
:26:03. > :26:09.average earners, correct? Let's look at the proposal to limit housing
:26:10. > :26:15.benefit for under 25s. Until today, after people have left school or
:26:16. > :26:19.college, the live for a time with their parents. For some, that is not
:26:20. > :26:23.possible and we will have to take that into account, but we have said
:26:24. > :26:28.there is a strong case for saying you will not get housing benefit
:26:29. > :26:32.until you are some years down the road and have properly established
:26:33. > :26:40.yourselves in work. And by definition these people are on lower
:26:41. > :26:44.than average salaries. Give me a case in which those on the higher
:26:45. > :26:50.tax band will contribute to the cuts. We have already put in place
:26:51. > :26:53.tax changes so that the highest tax rate is already higher than it was
:26:54. > :27:03.in every year of the last government. The amount of tax...
:27:04. > :27:08.There is no more expected of the rich. We will clearly look at future
:27:09. > :27:11.policy and work out how best to distribute the tax burden in this
:27:12. > :27:17.country and it is not for me to second-guess George Osborne's future
:27:18. > :27:22.plans, but we need to look at for example housing benefit for the
:27:23. > :27:28.under 25s. Is it right for those who are not working for the state to
:27:29. > :27:33.provide accommodation for them? Thank you for being with us.
:27:34. > :27:36.All three major parties at Westminster agree there's an urgent
:27:37. > :27:39.need to build more homes for Britain's growing population. But
:27:40. > :27:42.how they get built, and where, looks set to become a major battle ground
:27:43. > :27:44.in the run-up to the next general election.
:27:45. > :27:46.Although 16% more house-builds were started in 2012/13 than the previous
:27:47. > :27:54.year, the number actually completed fell by 8% - the lowest level in
:27:55. > :27:57.peacetime since 1920. The Office for National Statistics estimates that
:27:58. > :28:04.between now and 2021 we should expect 220,000 new households to be
:28:05. > :28:07.created every year. At his party's conference last autumn, Ed Miliband
:28:08. > :28:15.promised a Labour government would massively increase house-building. I
:28:16. > :28:20.will have a clear aim but by the end of the parliament, Britain will be
:28:21. > :28:25.building 200,000 homes per year more than at any time for a
:28:26. > :28:28.generation. That is how we make Britain better than this. The Labour
:28:29. > :28:32.leader also says he'd give urban councils a "right to grow" so rural
:28:33. > :28:36.neighbours can't block expansion and force developers with unused land to
:28:37. > :28:39.use it or lose it. The Government has been pursuing its own ideas
:28:40. > :28:43.including loan guarantees for developers and a new homes bonus to
:28:44. > :28:46.boost new house-building. But David Cameron could have trouble keeping
:28:47. > :28:48.his supporters on side - this week the senior backbencher Nadhim Zahawi
:28:49. > :28:55.criticised planning reforms for causing "physical harm" to the
:28:56. > :28:58.countryside. Nick Clegg meanwhile prefers a radical solution - brand
:28:59. > :29:13.new garden cities in the south east of England. In a speech tomorrow,
:29:14. > :29:16.Labour's shadow housing minister Emma Reynolds will give more details
:29:17. > :29:18.of how Labour would boost house-building, and she joins me
:29:19. > :29:23.now. It is not the politicians to blame, it is the lack of
:29:24. > :29:29.house-builders? We want a vibrant building industry, and at the moment
:29:30. > :29:33.that industry is dominated by big house-builders. I want to see a more
:29:34. > :29:39.diverse and competitive industry, where self build plays a greater
:29:40. > :29:45.role. In France over 60% of new homes are built by self builders,
:29:46. > :29:50.but small builders build more homes as well. 25 years ago they were
:29:51. > :29:54.building two thirds of new homes, now they are not building even a
:29:55. > :29:58.third of new homes. That's because land policies have been so
:29:59. > :30:03.restrictive that it is only the big companies who can afford to buy the
:30:04. > :30:08.land, so little land is being released for house building. I
:30:09. > :30:11.agree, there are some fundamental structural problems with the land
:30:12. > :30:14.market and that is why we have said there doesn't just need to be
:30:15. > :30:20.tinkering around the edges, there needs to be real reforms to make
:30:21. > :30:24.sure that small builders and self build and custom-built have access
:30:25. > :30:28.to land. They are saying they have problems with access to land and
:30:29. > :30:36.finance. At the end of the day it will not be self, small builders who
:30:37. > :30:40.reach your target, it will be big builders. I think it is pretty
:30:41. > :30:48.shameful that in Western Europe the new houses built in the UK are
:30:49. > :30:53.smaller than our neighbours. But isn't not the land problem? France
:30:54. > :31:02.is 2.8 times bigger in land mass and we are and that is not a problem for
:31:03. > :31:06.them. There is a perception we are going to build on the countryside,
:31:07. > :31:16.but not even 10% is on the countryside. There is enough for us
:31:17. > :31:19.to have our golf courses. There is enough other land for us to build on
:31:20. > :31:23.that is not golf courses. The planning minister has said he wants
:31:24. > :31:27.to build our National Parks, I am not suggesting that. The single
:31:28. > :31:33.biggest land border is the public sector. It is not. There are great
:31:34. > :31:38.opportunities for releasing public land, that is why I have been asking
:31:39. > :31:43.the government, they say they are going to release and of public land
:31:44. > :31:47.for tens of thousands of new homes to be built, but they say they are
:31:48. > :31:53.not monitoring how many houses are being built on the site. When your
:31:54. > :31:59.leader says to landowners, housing development owners, either use the
:32:00. > :32:06.land or lose it, in what way will they lose it? Will you confiscated?
:32:07. > :32:10.This is about strengthening the hand of local authorities, and they say
:32:11. > :32:14.to us that in some cases, house-builders are sitting on land.
:32:15. > :32:20.In those cases, we would give the power to local authorities to
:32:21. > :32:26.escalate fees. This would be the compulsory purchase orders, a matter
:32:27. > :32:33.of last resort, and you would hope that by strengthening the hand of
:32:34. > :32:36.local authorities, you could get the house-builders to start building the
:32:37. > :32:42.homes that people want. Would you compulsory purchase it? We would
:32:43. > :32:48.give the local authority as a last resort, after escalating the fees,
:32:49. > :32:51.the possibility and flexible it is to use the compulsory purchase
:32:52. > :32:56.orders to sell the land on to a house builder who wants to build
:32:57. > :32:59.houses that we need. Can you name one report that has come back in
:33:00. > :33:03.recent years that shows that hoarding of land by house-builders
:33:04. > :33:07.is a major problem? The IMF, the Conservative mayor of London and the
:33:08. > :33:10.Local Government Association are telling us that there is a problem
:33:11. > :33:14.with land hoarding. Therefore, we have said, where there is land with
:33:15. > :33:21.planning permission, and if plots are being sat on... Boris Johnson
:33:22. > :33:24.says there are 180,000 plots in London being sat on. We need to make
:33:25. > :33:32.sure the house-builders are building the homes that young families need.
:33:33. > :33:34.They get planning permission and sell it on to the developer. There
:33:35. > :33:38.is a whole degree of complicity, but is a whole degree of complicity but
:33:39. > :33:43.there is another problem before that. That is around transparency
:33:44. > :33:47.about land options. There is agricultural land that
:33:48. > :33:53.house-builders have land options on, and we do not know where that is.
:33:54. > :34:00.Where there is a need for housing, and the biggest demand is in the
:34:01. > :34:04.south-east of England, that is where many local authorities are most
:34:05. > :34:08.reluctant to do it, will you in central government take powers to
:34:09. > :34:16.force these authorities to give it? We have talked about the right to
:34:17. > :34:23.grow, we were in Stevenage recently. What we have said is we
:34:24. > :34:26.want to strengthen the hand of local authorities like Stevenage so they
:34:27. > :34:29.are not blocked every step of the way. They need 16,000 new homes,
:34:30. > :34:32.are not blocked every step of the way. They need 16,000 new homes but
:34:33. > :34:36.they do not have the land supply. What about the authorities that do
:34:37. > :34:40.not want to do it? They should be forced to sit down and agree with
:34:41. > :34:44.the neighbouring authority. In Stevenage, it is estimated at
:34:45. > :34:47.?500,000 has been spent on legal fees because North Hertfordshire is
:34:48. > :34:53.blocking Stevenage every step of the way. Michael Lyons says the national
:34:54. > :35:01.interest will have to take President over local interest. Voice cannot
:35:02. > :35:06.mean a veto. The local community in Stevenage is crying out for new
:35:07. > :35:10.homes. Do you agree? There has to be land available for new homes to be
:35:11. > :35:15.built, and in areas like Oxford, Luton and Stevenage... Do you agree
:35:16. > :35:37.with Michael Lyons? The national interest does have to be served
:35:38. > :35:43.will put the five new towns? We have asked him to look at how we can
:35:44. > :35:48.incentivise local authorities to come forward with sites for new
:35:49. > :35:53.towns. You cannot tell us where they are going to be? I cannot. We will
:35:54. > :35:59.have to wait for him. When you look at the historic figures overall, not
:36:00. > :36:02.at the moment, Private Housing building is only just beginning to
:36:03. > :36:05.recover, but it has been pretty steady for a while. The big
:36:06. > :36:09.difference between house-building now and in the past, since Mrs
:36:10. > :36:13.Thatcher came to power a and including the Tony Blair government,
:36:14. > :36:18.we did not build council houses. Almost none. Will the next Labour
:36:19. > :36:24.government embark on a major council has programme? We inherited housing
:36:25. > :36:31.stock back in 1997... This is important. Will the next Labour
:36:32. > :36:35.government embark on a major council has programme? We have called on
:36:36. > :36:39.this government to bring forward investment in social housing. We
:36:40. > :36:44.want to see an investment programme in social housing, I cannot give you
:36:45. > :36:48.the figures now. We are 18 months away from the election. Will the
:36:49. > :36:54.next Labour government embark on a major council house Northern
:36:55. > :36:57.programme? I want to see a council house building programme, because
:36:58. > :37:06.there is a big shortage of council homes. That is a guess? Yes. We got
:37:07. > :37:13.there in the end. -- that is a yes? We will be talking to Patrick homes
:37:14. > :37:15.in the West Midlands in a moment. You are watching the Sunday
:37:16. > :37:18.Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will look at the week
:37:19. > :37:32.ahead with our political panel Hello, I'm Lucie Fisher, coming up
:37:33. > :37:37.on the Sunday Politics in the South West: The gypsy and traveller debate
:37:38. > :37:44.continues as yet another plan to provide legal pitches is scrapped.
:37:45. > :37:46.And for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by Labour councillor Phil
:37:47. > :37:50.Bialyk, and Conservative MP Sarah Newton. Welcome both of you to the
:37:51. > :37:53.programme. Let's start with house building
:37:54. > :37:56.targets. Next week councillors in Cornwall will decide how many new
:37:57. > :38:00.homes should be built in the county over the next 20 years. Political
:38:01. > :38:03.tensions are mounting. The Conservatives want the target of
:38:04. > :38:07.47,000 to be cut to 33,000, but the Lib Dems say reducing the numbers by
:38:08. > :38:17.that amount would be a "recipe for disaster".
:38:18. > :38:23.Sarah, you are calling for less homes to be built. Why, when we know
:38:24. > :38:27.that waiting lists are so high? What is so interesting if you look back
:38:28. > :38:32.over the next `` past ten years in Cornwall we have had record levels
:38:33. > :38:35.of house`building yet we have record levels of people living in dreadful
:38:36. > :38:40.housing situations and not leaving have a household so clearly the way
:38:41. > :38:45.it has been done in the past has not worked. Why not? We are not spending
:38:46. > :38:50.enough money on building affordable homes that you can buy and read. The
:38:51. > :38:54.book are placed out of living in Cornwall. Who is getting the homes
:38:55. > :39:00.we are building? Second homeowners are the problem? The types of homes
:39:01. > :39:03.we are building are simply unaffordable for many people in
:39:04. > :39:07.Cornwall who was on low wages at the priority must be local needs
:39:08. > :39:14.housing, that must come first and we need to build many more of those as
:39:15. > :39:18.a percentage of the target. Of course we welcome people coming to
:39:19. > :39:22.live in Cornwall, especially people coming to set up businesses in grow
:39:23. > :39:26.them and employ people, we have a lot of inward migration into
:39:27. > :39:31.Cornwall over the past ten years. And building less homes is the
:39:32. > :39:35.answer? Building more affordable homes is what we need, genuinely
:39:36. > :39:40.affordable homes for people to buy or rent. Phil, is 40,000 homes over
:39:41. > :39:47.the next 20 years the right way to go? Labour target is 60,000 homes.
:39:48. > :39:52.The people need homes. That is what we need. Server, Kew said talking
:39:53. > :39:56.about reducing homes. The Conservative government where
:39:57. > :40:01.Columbus that in councils for not building homes at your suggesting
:40:02. > :40:05.introduction. This is important that the decision for Cornwall
:40:06. > :40:09.councillors. They will be debating that and I did join the debate in
:40:10. > :40:12.Parliament yesterday. I was getting clarification because unlike the
:40:13. > :40:19.Labour Party which made their decisions about house`building
:40:20. > :40:21.targets through the regions except... Implicitly will chair the
:40:22. > :40:28.potential house`building targets they were rejected by the
:40:29. > :40:35.Commissioner. `` except in places like Wiltshire. What I want to see
:40:36. > :40:39.and what was clarified in the debate we had is that so long as there is a
:40:40. > :40:45.good evidence base that Cornwall is meeting its housing need that it can
:40:46. > :40:50.properly substantiate that... Phil Bialyk, will this work? Know, and I
:40:51. > :40:55.am happy that we have affordable houses in Exeter, we have had
:40:56. > :41:00.something like 180 affordable houses since April of this year. We have
:41:01. > :41:04.plenty more coming up and we are obviously trying to encourage
:41:05. > :41:08.development. People want homes. People want to be able to go home
:41:09. > :41:12.after an and turn the key on your own home. That is so important. The
:41:13. > :41:15.job, a home is what people want. I will have to stop you. Ten to move
:41:16. > :41:18.on. This week new bed blocking figures
:41:19. > :41:20.revealed problems at some of the region's biggest hospitals are far
:41:21. > :41:23.from being resolved. Operations are still being cancelled because
:41:24. > :41:27.patients who're well enough to be discharged remain stuck on wards. In
:41:28. > :41:29.Cornwall the Council is still being blamed for failing to provide the
:41:30. > :41:33.community care which would allow people to leave hospital. In a
:41:34. > :41:41.moment we'll speak to the councillor in charge, but first this report
:41:42. > :41:45.from Tamsin Melville. Last week aged dual Florence Uren
:41:46. > :41:49.was all ready for the new operation at the Royal Cornwall Hospital. She
:41:50. > :41:53.had spoken to the NEC success, met the surgeon and was waiting to go to
:41:54. > :42:01.theatre which he was told to go home because no bed was available. I was
:42:02. > :42:07.very upset. I had been looking forward to going in to get rid of
:42:08. > :42:10.the pain. I can play in the hospital, the staff were brilliant.
:42:11. > :42:18.They could not have done anything better. What upset me was that I had
:42:19. > :42:21.the bed and it was taken away. There are currently hundreds of cases of
:42:22. > :42:25.so`called bed blocking in the region's hospitals, where a lack of
:42:26. > :42:29.one would care is forcing some operations to be cancelled. It is
:42:30. > :42:35.regrettable when patients must wait for beds or packages of care and we
:42:36. > :42:40.know there is an issue in Cornwall so we are working with our community
:42:41. > :42:43.partners executive team of hospital workers and working with other
:42:44. > :42:47.executives in the unity to try and prove that because clearly patients
:42:48. > :42:51.that cannot leave the hospital that means there our bed pressures and
:42:52. > :42:55.forces patients waiting for surgery in two cancellations. In the week
:42:56. > :43:00.before New Year at the Royal Cornwall alone there are more than
:43:01. > :43:04.100 beds blocked, twice the national average. That is despite a plan to
:43:05. > :43:08.improve the situation after 14 operations had been cancelled in
:43:09. > :43:13.just one day in October. As part of the shake`up of the NHS since April,
:43:14. > :43:17.pencils `` councils have had to set up health and well`being boards.
:43:18. > :43:20.These are responsible for ensuring that public health and social care
:43:21. > :43:26.all work together. You're in Cornwall that system is under some
:43:27. > :43:29.scrutiny. The October crisis wanted accusations that the council was to
:43:30. > :43:34.blame for failures in the social care system. From what I have been
:43:35. > :43:38.hearing the leaders of the NHS in Cornwall have been working very hard
:43:39. > :43:42.for some time to join up their services, to work well, to do things
:43:43. > :43:45.more efficiently, better for patients and the missing piece of
:43:46. > :43:51.the jigsaw has been Cornwall Council. The council has always
:43:52. > :43:54.stressed it is not to blame and all partners agreed to improve
:43:55. > :43:58.communication. Health watchdogs are not happy with the latest figures. I
:43:59. > :44:03.was disappointed to hear that bed blocking in January has again become
:44:04. > :44:06.an issue when a lot of work was done by the different partner
:44:07. > :44:09.organisations in health care in October and November to try and
:44:10. > :44:15.improve the situation as we went into winter. I can only say I am
:44:16. > :44:22.very disappointed that measures that have been put in have been not
:44:23. > :44:26.effective enough at this stage. Independent health and social care
:44:27. > :44:30.providers have told us that they want the council about a looming
:44:31. > :44:32.crisis back in September. They told us that a continuing lack of
:44:33. > :44:37.communication and coordination by the council has had a detrimental
:44:38. > :44:42.effect on the continued provision of care across the county. Meanwhile,
:44:43. > :44:48.Florence just wants her. Everybody has tried to do this for me but
:44:49. > :44:51.nothing has happened. I am just hoping that next time everything
:44:52. > :44:54.will go all right. Florence Uren ending that report
:44:55. > :44:57.from Tamsin Melville and joining us to discuss this is the Cornwall
:44:58. > :45:03.Council Cabinet member for Health and Adult Care, Councillor Judith
:45:04. > :45:08.Haycock. Welcome to the programme. Judith, the shareholder managers
:45:09. > :45:11.involved here, the people who should be able to take in these patients
:45:12. > :45:15.who are blocking the bed that the update for others in hospital see
:45:16. > :45:21.that you are to blame. What do you make of that? The figures you are
:45:22. > :45:25.giving, the 109, is not a figure that I recognise at all. We have
:45:26. > :45:30.single figures that we have been looking at and... This is from NHS
:45:31. > :45:35.England, that figure. That figure also contains other people, not only
:45:36. > :45:40.people looking for care packages from the council, that is people who
:45:41. > :45:43.are looking to be moved on to community hospitals or just actually
:45:44. > :45:47.leave the hospital. What do you see to the care home managers who are
:45:48. > :45:51.asking why you will not sit down and have a conversation with them?
:45:52. > :45:57.Presumably you could tell them that. At the moment we are in the tender
:45:58. > :46:00.process looking at the provision of care. They see that you will not sit
:46:01. > :46:04.down and have a face`to`face chat with them. That is all we are after.
:46:05. > :46:07.That's said reasonable doesn't it question there have been discussions
:46:08. > :46:11.but at the moment people might have discussions when we are in the
:46:12. > :46:15.tender process. Do you feel that the council is being made a scapegoat?
:46:16. > :46:18.According to my figures we are talking about single figures for
:46:19. > :46:25.people are looking at care packages from the council. At the moment we
:46:26. > :46:31.have got four or five every day. OK, I will ask seller. Is the situation
:46:32. > :46:36.improving since October when we had the hospital in a crisis? What I
:46:37. > :46:40.hear, apart from the providers that have given out that statement,
:46:41. > :46:43.certainly from the NHS partners, I got an update from then just
:46:44. > :46:48.yesterday and they say yes, communication has definitely
:46:49. > :46:52.improved and there is a drive to try and reduce the situation. Have been
:46:53. > :46:57.seeing that the council has been at fault. Yes and there has been a
:46:58. > :47:00.confusion with Judith is probably quite right, I have not seen the
:47:01. > :47:06.data, when she is talking about the actual numbers of people who
:47:07. > :47:09.Cornwall Council have a statutory responsibility as the people paying
:47:10. > :47:14.for the care packages, what Cornwall Council are still not fully grasping
:47:15. > :47:17.in my view is the responsibility through the health and well`being
:47:18. > :47:21.board as tabs and quite rightly said. That is the body, the
:47:22. > :47:25.strategic audio Cornwall that gets all the parties together, that has
:47:26. > :47:30.the responsibility of integrating, coordinating services in the
:47:31. > :47:35.patient, whoever is paying for their care. Most people pay for their own
:47:36. > :47:39.care. Do that, you are not grasping this situation according to seller.
:47:40. > :47:45.The health and well`being waters working extremely well, we have the
:47:46. > :47:50.fun coming from the government. `` the health and well`being board.
:47:51. > :47:54.Have a plan of working together with Oliver partners. That all of this
:47:55. > :47:57.mean that people will not be stuck in the in A.D410 hours when
:47:58. > :48:02.Whittington care? It is those patients we are worried about.
:48:03. > :48:05.Others cannot be moved out of the hospital because they have nowhere
:48:06. > :48:10.else to go. It overjoyed at care packages with our partners so people
:48:11. > :48:12.are not having new ministers visit and we know exactly what is
:48:13. > :48:19.happening. The Axel Biela, what you make? I want to know who is talking
:48:20. > :48:23.to Florence Uren about her problems. She is the person, when all of these
:48:24. > :48:30.higher faculty of costs and call centres, there are people out there
:48:31. > :48:35.who need care. Phil, we all knew the population was going to get older.
:48:36. > :48:39.You knew and adult social care was going to become a problem as a
:48:40. > :48:44.result, what did Labour to wealthy have the chance? The Mac what we did
:48:45. > :48:48.not do was get rid of 6500 nurses nationally. What we did not do is
:48:49. > :48:52.spend ?3 billion a reorganisation of the health service. I think we could
:48:53. > :48:57.have sorted out Florence Uren's problems and many of these problems.
:48:58. > :49:00.You would say that this is a problem not with the council but with
:49:01. > :49:03.central government? Seller is in government and she
:49:04. > :49:07.doesn't blame everyone. They need to do something about it. There are
:49:08. > :49:12.more doctors and nurses know that there were in 2010. We are working
:49:13. > :49:16.extremely hard to tackle this issue which is quite rightly identified in
:49:17. > :49:21.your package as being about lack of coordination, lack of joining up
:49:22. > :49:26.services. I did not mention the word cost once because this is an area
:49:27. > :49:27.where we have not cut the NHS budgets as an extra resources going.
:49:28. > :49:33.The council is quite right, budgets as an extra resources going.
:49:34. > :49:38.Letter Judith, do you have enough money? Is money problem? Obviously
:49:39. > :49:44.money is going to be a problem but it is not that big a problem. We are
:49:45. > :49:49.working with health partners in the new better care fund is that our
:49:50. > :49:55.problem is that we make sure we work together with IT and peace confident
:49:56. > :50:03.jealousy. IT is the problem with bed blocking? Then blocking is now the
:50:04. > :50:06.problem and you're seeing it? That is working on your figures, that you
:50:07. > :50:15.seeing it as twice the national average. Figures from NHS England.
:50:16. > :50:19.Would you are questioning. I will go back to seller, this government says
:50:20. > :50:22.it will make adult social care eight priority. The giving what is going
:50:23. > :50:29.on at the Royal Cornwall Hospital shows you are doing that? Idea, as
:50:30. > :50:31.we speak I am working on the Care Bill which is the most landmark
:50:32. > :50:35.piece of legislation which absolutely has support from Labour,
:50:36. > :50:38.what we are doing is achieving what they would never have achieved any
:50:39. > :50:43.government achieved for many decades, which is to grasp this
:50:44. > :50:47.remake complex issue, how we are going to provide joined up
:50:48. > :50:52.integrated care about people and their families. Last point, Phil?
:50:53. > :51:00.It is all worth it leaves nothing to Florence Uren. She is getting much
:51:01. > :51:03.better quality of care. We must deal with this preferably. Cannot stop
:51:04. > :51:06.you there, Sarah, and thank you, Judah for joining us.
:51:07. > :51:08.There are few challenges which cause councillors as much concern as
:51:09. > :51:11.providing gypsy and traveller sites. Last week plans for ten official
:51:12. > :51:15.pitches in Plymouth were abandoned. A decision which has been welcomed
:51:16. > :51:27.by local opponents, but condemned by the travelling community. Johnny
:51:28. > :51:32.Rutherford reports. Celebrating a victory. But it has
:51:33. > :51:39.been a long struggle. Absolutely disgusting. Back in 2900 City
:51:40. > :51:42.Council decided to build a traveller site on the edge of town next to a
:51:43. > :51:46.nature reserve despite a large resident campaign. By 2011 planning
:51:47. > :51:50.permission had been granted for a permanent ten site. Though the
:51:51. > :51:55.council have announced they have decided to scrap the plans. We feel
:51:56. > :52:03.ecstatic that the council has no after all this time listened to the
:52:04. > :52:06.residents, whereas before they start to themselves, we are the
:52:07. > :52:11.councillors, apart from the other councillors, we are the council and
:52:12. > :52:16.will do what we want to do and not what you want to do. Anyone who
:52:17. > :52:18.knows the site, it is all right for people to see you must live
:52:19. > :52:23.somewhere, but if you know the site and you know how dangerous this site
:52:24. > :52:29.is, we are very concerned with accidents that happen there, the
:52:30. > :52:36.children would have nowhere to play on a really dangerous bend. The
:52:37. > :52:39.traffic that goes true then it. The site you're on the literary world
:52:40. > :52:42.was once used by gypsies and travellers, it closed more than 40
:52:43. > :52:49.years ago and the authorities said that the land would never again used
:52:50. > :52:53.as a permanent site. It is a detail which the council apparently took
:52:54. > :52:58.more than five years remember. Note the area is going to be enhanced and
:52:59. > :53:01.protected for wildlife. The Coalition scrap the official targets
:53:02. > :53:06.which forced councils to provide a set number of travellers pictures
:53:07. > :53:11.but it has allocated ?16 million to be used on new and existing
:53:12. > :53:15.travellers sites in England. Some politicians strongly object to this
:53:16. > :53:18.use of public money. I do not think it is any responsibility of local or
:53:19. > :53:22.national government to provide sites for travellers. In most cases the
:53:23. > :53:27.people who are not foldable but aplenty of resources and what we
:53:28. > :53:31.should be doing is we should be much better at enforcing the law and
:53:32. > :53:35.removing them when the gate crashed onto someone else's land.
:53:36. > :53:38.Nevertheless, Plymouth has managed to claim just under ?2 million.
:53:39. > :53:45.Originally for the sites. The money has been allocated for efforts for
:53:46. > :53:49.ten pages and will be added to the improvement scheme for 13 pitches at
:53:50. > :53:53.the only permanent gypsy travellers site next to Chelsea Meadow. The
:53:54. > :53:59.location of the proposed transit site of 16 pitches at Bradley Park.
:54:00. > :54:02.Plymouth city council were not available for interview but they
:54:03. > :54:05.acknowledged the need to provide more travellers sites for the
:54:06. > :54:12.Plymouth area. Johnny Rutherford reporting. Joining us as a member of
:54:13. > :54:17.the charity of friends family as Terry `` friends family and
:54:18. > :54:20.travellers. This is a has been thrown out. Is the government doing
:54:21. > :54:26.enough to encourage councils to provide more site? We do not think
:54:27. > :54:31.there is. We do not think they are, rather. There was once a statutory
:54:32. > :54:36.duty on local authorities to provide sites and that came with a 100%
:54:37. > :54:41.central funding for state provision. That was repealed in 1984 so no even
:54:42. > :54:43.though local authorities must identify land for sites they must do
:54:44. > :54:48.a the assessment which permit will have done in the will have an amount
:54:49. > :54:54.of pictures they are supposed to provide. We can be seen to discuss
:54:55. > :54:56.it a lot like what happened in Plymouth. They have applied the
:54:57. > :55:01.client and the method has been stopped. What is going to be the
:55:02. > :55:04.penalties on the local authorities for not providing this? You will
:55:05. > :55:09.still have 25% of Gypsy and Traveller caravans, the homeless and
:55:10. > :55:14.have nowhere to put their caravan on. You pay rent to live only say
:55:15. > :55:21.that council tax, he would have AV source. The Mac I will stop you
:55:22. > :55:24.there. I will ask seller, should there be in return to statutory
:55:25. > :55:30.regulation? A penalty for pencils not providing the site? It is right
:55:31. > :55:37.that local people work for councils as the lady was seeing. Local people
:55:38. > :55:40.will always say no, aren't they? Know, if you look at what has
:55:41. > :55:44.happened over the past few years there are no more people living on
:55:45. > :55:47.registered sites in the murder people living off registered has
:55:48. > :55:53.gone down. By making the money available to help improve and expand
:55:54. > :55:56.on existing sites... Your Conservative colleague Gary Street
:55:57. > :56:02.he said we should not spend public money on this at all. The Nikkei is
:56:03. > :56:10.entitled to his opinion and is an extremely valued colleague. `` she
:56:11. > :56:15.has entitled to his opinion. Still, it is your colleagues on the city
:56:16. > :56:19.council in Plymouth who have abandoned plans for the site. You
:56:20. > :56:26.agree with them? My understanding is that there is a
:56:27. > :56:33.financial concern. The mat budgets come into it. Seller has said that
:56:34. > :56:36.they are listening to local people but in the end of the know it is an
:56:37. > :56:41.issue that must be dealt with. People need homes. We should not
:56:42. > :56:47.ghettoise people. We should not demonise people either. Whether it
:56:48. > :56:53.is Bulgarian Romanians, it will be gypsies. If you created more sites
:56:54. > :56:58.with that encourage more Roma gypsies, maybe, from Romania and
:56:59. > :57:01.Bulgaria to come to them? If they were not been provided elsewhere?
:57:02. > :57:08.And would that be a problem? Don't sound like the Daily Mail for
:57:09. > :57:14.goodness sake. That will not happen. Could I comment on that? Just a
:57:15. > :57:18.couple of things. Roma gypsies in Eastern Europe do not really live on
:57:19. > :57:22.site any more so I would not think they would live there, they have
:57:23. > :57:25.been settled and housing for a long time. They would not be looking to
:57:26. > :57:30.live on Gypsy and Traveller sites in Britain. Add in regards to sellers
:57:31. > :57:33.point with the increase in state provision that increase has not been
:57:34. > :57:36.in public provision it has been on private sector people have what it
:57:37. > :57:40.one land and achieved planning permission, often having to fight a
:57:41. > :57:44.planning appeal because they have been turned down permissions so that
:57:45. > :57:49.is not public sector, so what we need public safe for people who
:57:50. > :57:52.cannot afford to divide their own land in the way that you have social
:57:53. > :57:56.housing and that is what this site in Plymouth was to be. We need many
:57:57. > :58:01.more of them. I do not see councils providing public sites. Emma, you
:58:02. > :58:04.have the last word. That is the end of the discussion. Thank you.
:58:05. > :58:18.Now our regular round`up of the political week in 60 seconds.
:58:19. > :58:22.Storms brought the deluge of political comment, with some MPs
:58:23. > :58:25.resigned to the elements. There's nothing you can do a text mother
:58:26. > :58:28.nature when she is as powerful as this. Others concerned about whether
:58:29. > :58:33.there was enough cash to keep water away from release. Is my honourable
:58:34. > :58:42.friend confident that with an existing wee sources in the testing
:58:43. > :58:45.budget that we are given sufficient priority for flood prevention
:58:46. > :58:48.methods? Devon and Cornwall police commissioner says he was
:58:49. > :58:53.disappointed by the 2.5 million pound cut his budget. A planning
:58:54. > :58:56.enquiry started in East Devon over housing plans which will see the
:58:57. > :59:04.size of one village increased by 40%. If this village falls then
:59:05. > :59:10.nowhere in Britain is safe. If 40% is deemed appropriate then what is
:59:11. > :59:14.to stop more? The environment select committee says confidence in the
:59:15. > :59:21.badger cull had been undermined by repeated revisions of estimated
:59:22. > :59:24.badger numbers. Still, let's look at the flood
:59:25. > :59:29.defence budget. There is confusion as to whether there has been cut or
:59:30. > :59:34.not? What are the likelihood of more money being spent on the extra
:59:35. > :59:38.really like? Network Rail must come up with the money, and at that is
:59:39. > :59:42.owned by government. Government must put money into it. It is an
:59:43. > :59:46.important rail link and it is part of the arty in the West Country. We
:59:47. > :59:50.cannot keep having a situation whereby we are cut off for days on
:59:51. > :59:56.end. People's travel arrangements, businesses will rely upon it. As the
:59:57. > :00:00.clip 2.5 million has cut from the environment agency. That is where
:00:01. > :00:05.money must be spent on this. We do need is to spend money. Money must
:00:06. > :00:09.be spent? You'll like huge amount of money are going into flood defences
:00:10. > :00:15.and on that issue we have absolute commitment to ensure we defend that
:00:16. > :00:18.line and I was really pleased. We have already started to see the
:00:19. > :00:20.investment. I must stop you there. That's the Sunday Politics in the
:00:21. > :00:26.South West. Thanks to my guests will not be revoked. And I wouldn't
:00:27. > :00:36.want it to go. Thank you, back to Andrew.
:00:37. > :00:40.Can David Cameron get his way on EU migration? Will he ever be able to
:00:41. > :00:50.satisfy his backbenchers on Europe? Is Ed Miliband trying to change the
:00:51. > :00:55.tone of PMQ 's? More questions for the week ahead.
:00:56. > :01:00.We are joined by Jacob Rees Mogg from his constituency in Somerset.
:01:01. > :01:07.Welcome to the programme. You one of the 95 Tory backbenchers who signed
:01:08. > :01:10.this letter? Suddenly. Laws should be made by our democratically
:01:11. > :01:19.elected representatives, not from Brussels. How could Europe work with
:01:20. > :01:29.a pick and mix in which each national parliament can decide what
:01:30. > :01:33.Brussels can be in charge of? The European Union is a supernatural
:01:34. > :01:35.body that is there for the cooperation amongst member states to
:01:36. > :01:42.do things that they jointly want to do. It ought not be there to force
:01:43. > :01:45.-- to enforce uniform rules on countries that do not want to
:01:46. > :01:46.participate. It is the vision of Europe that people joined when we
:01:47. > :01:53.signed up to it and came in in 1973. signed up to it and came in in 973.
:01:54. > :01:57.It has accreted powers to itself without having the support of the
:01:58. > :02:02.public of the member states. This is just a way of preparing the ground
:02:03. > :02:07.for you to get out of Europe altogether, isn't it? I do not big
:02:08. > :02:11.so. There is a role for an organisation that does some
:02:12. > :02:16.coordination and that has trade agreements within it, I do not think
:02:17. > :02:21.there is a role for a federal state. Europe seems to be dominating the. I
:02:22. > :02:26.remember your leader telling you not to bang on about Europe, your
:02:27. > :02:30.backbench colleagues seem to have ignored that. Would you like to
:02:31. > :02:38.restrict the flow of EU migrants to come to work in this country? Yes. I
:02:39. > :02:42.think we should have control of our own borders, so we can decide who we
:02:43. > :02:46.want to admit for the whole world. What we have at the moment is a
:02:47. > :02:51.restrictive control of people coming from anywhere other than the EU.
:02:52. > :02:56.There is a big decrease in the number of New Zealanders who came in
:02:57. > :03:00.the last quarter for which figures are available, but a huge increase
:03:01. > :03:04.in people coming from the continent. Does it really make sense to stop
:03:05. > :03:08.our second cousins coming so that we can allow people freely to come from
:03:09. > :03:13.the continent? I do not think so, we need to have domestic control of our
:03:14. > :03:17.borders in the interests of the United Kingdom. There are still lots
:03:18. > :03:22.more people coming from the rest of the world than from the European
:03:23. > :03:29.Union. That has been changing. But there are still more. A lot more.
:03:30. > :03:35.The permanent residence coming from the European Union are extremely
:03:36. > :03:39.high. In the period when the Labour Party was in charge, we had to put 5
:03:40. > :03:44.million people coming here, of whom about 1 billion were from Poland. --
:03:45. > :03:52.we had 2.5 million people coming here. We have no control over them.
:03:53. > :03:57.Like the clock behind you, you are behind the times on these figures. I
:03:58. > :04:00.have stopped the clock for your benefit, because it was going to
:04:01. > :04:09.chime otherwise! I thought that might be distracting! Only a Tory
:04:10. > :04:19.backbencher could stop a clock! Helen, when you at this up, it is
:04:20. > :04:22.preparing to get out, is it not? We have had this one bill about a
:04:23. > :04:27.referendum that seems to have tied us up in knots for months on end. If
:04:28. > :04:33.Parliament could scrutinise every piece of EU legislation, we would
:04:34. > :04:38.never get anything else done. It would be incredible. Even Chris
:04:39. > :04:46.Grayling said earlier that you can not have a national veto on anything
:04:47. > :04:49.that the EU proposes. I am surprised that Jacob Rees Mogg is talking
:04:50. > :04:54.about dismantling one of Margaret Thatcher's most important legacies,
:04:55. > :04:58.the creation of the single market, and the person sent there to dream
:04:59. > :05:02.it up under Margaret Thatcher said the only way you can run this
:05:03. > :05:07.sensibly is by not having national vetoes, because if you have that,
:05:08. > :05:11.guess what will happen? The French will impose lots of protectionist
:05:12. > :05:13.measures. It was Margaret Thatcher's idea that national
:05:14. > :05:21.parliaments should never veto. How could you fly in the face of the
:05:22. > :05:29.lady? Even the great lady makes mistakes. Excuse me, Jacob Rees Mogg
:05:30. > :05:35.says even Margaret Thatcher makes mistakes! No wonder the clock has
:05:36. > :05:42.stopped! Even be near divine Margaret made a mistake! But on the
:05:43. > :05:47.single market, it has been used as an excuse for massive origination of
:05:48. > :05:50.domestic affairs. We should be interested in free trade in Europe
:05:51. > :05:56.and allowing people to export and import freely, not to have uniform
:05:57. > :06:02.regulations, as per the single market, because what that allows is
:06:03. > :06:04.thought unelected bureaucrats to determine the regular vision. We
:06:05. > :06:08.want the British people to decide the rules for themselves. If this
:06:09. > :06:12.makes the single market not work, that is not the problem, because we
:06:13. > :06:19.can still have free trade, which is more important. If David Cameron is
:06:20. > :06:26.watching this, I am sure he is, it will be nice for you to come on and
:06:27. > :06:31.give us an interview, he must be worried. He is beginning to think, I
:06:32. > :06:37.am losing control. It is a clever letter, the tone is ingratiating and
:06:38. > :06:40.pleasant, every time, you have stood up to Brussels, you have achieved
:06:41. > :06:46.something, but the content is dramatic. If you want Parliament to
:06:47. > :06:49.have a veto, you want to leave the EU, because the definition is
:06:50. > :06:55.accepting the primacy of European law. The MPs should be clear about
:06:56. > :06:59.that. It is almost a year since the Europe speech in which David Cameron
:07:00. > :07:03.committed to the referendum. The political objective was to put that
:07:04. > :07:09.issue to bed until the next election. It has failed. David
:07:10. > :07:13.Cameron is going to have to pull off a major miracle in any
:07:14. > :07:21.renegotiations to satisfy all of this. Yes, it makes me think how
:07:22. > :07:24.much luckier he has been in coalition with the Liberal
:07:25. > :07:26.Democrats, because there is a bit of the Tory party that is
:07:27. > :07:32.irreconcilable to what he wants to do. The Conservative MPs are making
:07:33. > :07:36.these demands just as David Cameron is seeing the debate goes his way in
:07:37. > :07:41.Europe. Angela Merkel has looked over the cliff and said, do I want
:07:42. > :07:47.the UK out? No, they are a counterbalance to France. France one
:07:48. > :07:51.the UK to leave, but they do not, because they do not want to lose the
:07:52. > :07:56.only realistic military power Tom other than themselves. Just when the
:07:57. > :08:04.debate is going David Cameron's way, Jacob Rees Mogg would take us out.
:08:05. > :08:09.Let me move on to another subject. That is nonsense. The debate is not
:08:10. > :08:14.beginning to go David Cameron's way. We are having before us on Monday a
:08:15. > :08:19.bill about European citizenship and spending British taxpayers money so
:08:20. > :08:23.that Europe can go and say we are all EU citizens, but we signed up to
:08:24. > :08:29.being a part of a multinational organisation. The spin that it is
:08:30. > :08:32.going the way of the leader of a political party is one that has been
:08:33. > :08:38.used before, it was said of John Major, it was untrue then and it is
:08:39. > :08:44.now. It is, for the continuing deeper integration of the European
:08:45. > :08:51.Union. I want to ask a quick question. Chris Grayling said to us
:08:52. > :08:55.that the Tories would devise a way in which the British Supreme Court
:08:56. > :08:58.would be supreme in the proper meaning of that, but we could still
:08:59. > :09:06.be within the European Court of Human Rights. Can that circle be
:09:07. > :09:11.squared? I have no idea, the Lord Chancellor is an able man, and I am
:09:12. > :09:13.sure he is good at squaring circles. I am not worried about whether we
:09:14. > :09:18.remain in the convention or not. I am not worried about whether we
:09:19. > :09:25.remain in the convention or not PMQ 's, we saw a bit about this week,
:09:26. > :09:31.Paul Gorgons had died, so the house was more subdued, but he wants a
:09:32. > :09:33.more subdued and serious prime ministers questions. Let's remind
:09:34. > :09:39.ourselves what it was like until now.
:09:40. > :09:43.What is clear is that he is floundering around and he has no
:09:44. > :09:49.answer to the Labour Party's energy price freeze. The difference is
:09:50. > :09:53.John Major is a good man, the Right Honourable gentleman is acting like
:09:54. > :09:59.a conman. Across the medical profession, they say there is a
:10:00. > :10:03.crisis in accident and emergency, and we have a Prime Minister saying,
:10:04. > :10:08.crisis, what crisis? How out of touch can hate the? You do not need
:10:09. > :10:17.it to be Christmas to know when you are sitting next to a turkey.
:10:18. > :10:20.It is not a bad line. Is Ed Miliband trying to change the tone of prime
:10:21. > :10:25.ministers questions? Is he right to do so? The important point is this
:10:26. > :10:31.was a special prime ministers questions, because everybody was
:10:32. > :10:36.really sad and by the death of Paul Goggins and in the country, the
:10:37. > :10:39.legacy of the floods. That was the first question that Ed Miliband
:10:40. > :10:44.asked about, so that cast a pall over proceedings. When it suits him,
:10:45. > :10:48.Ed Miliband would like to take a more statesman-like stance, but will
:10:49. > :10:53.it last? That is how David Cameron started. His first prime ministers
:10:54. > :10:58.questions, he said to Tony Blair, I would like to support you on
:10:59. > :11:03.education, and he did in a vote which meant Tony Blair could see off
:11:04. > :11:09.a naughty operation from Gordon Brown. But it did not last, they are
:11:10. > :11:14.parties with different visions. Jacob Rees Mogg, would you like to
:11:15. > :11:19.see it more subdued? I like a bit of Punch and Judy. You need to have
:11:20. > :11:24.fierce debate and people putting their views passionately, it is
:11:25. > :11:29.excellent. I am not good at it, I sit there quite quietly, but it is
:11:30. > :11:35.great fun, very exciting, and it is the most watched bit of the House of
:11:36. > :11:39.Commons each week. If it got as dull as ditchwater, nobody would pay
:11:40. > :11:45.attention. Three cheers for Punch and Judy. Ed Miliband is going to
:11:46. > :11:50.make a major speech on the economy this week. You can now define the
:11:51. > :11:56.general approach. We had it from Emma Reynolds, we have seen it over
:11:57. > :12:01.energy prices, this market is bust, the market is not working properly,
:12:02. > :12:06.and that will therefore justify substantial government intervention.
:12:07. > :12:11.Intervention which does not necessarily cost money. It is the
:12:12. > :12:14.deletion and reorganising industries. It constitutes an answer
:12:15. > :12:17.to the question which has been hounding him, what is the point of
:12:18. > :12:20.the Labour Party when there is no money left? He says, you do not
:12:21. > :12:25.spend a huge amount fiscally, but you arrange markets to achieve
:12:26. > :12:31.socially just outcomes without expenditure. It is quite serious
:12:32. > :12:36.stance. I am not sure it will survive the rigours of an election
:12:37. > :12:40.campaign, but it is an answer. Is that an approach, to use broken
:12:41. > :12:46.markets, to justify substantial state intervention? Yes, and the
:12:47. > :12:49.other big plank is infrastructure spending. The Lib Dems would not be
:12:50. > :12:55.against capital investment for info structure will stop Emma Reynolds
:12:56. > :12:58.talking about house-building, the idea of pumping money into the
:12:59. > :13:04.economy through infrastructure is something that the Labour Party will
:13:05. > :13:09.look at. Jacob Rees Mogg, you once thought Somerset should have its own
:13:10. > :13:15.time zone, and today, you have delivered on that promise! Live on
:13:16. > :13:21.the Sunday Politics! I try to deliver on my promises!
:13:22. > :13:26.That is all for today, the Daily Politics is on BBC Two every day
:13:27. > :13:32.this week, just before lunch. I aren't back next Sunday here on BBC
:13:33. > :13:38.One at 11am. -- I am back. If it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.