:00:37. > :00:43.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Nick Clegg says
:00:44. > :00:48.Chris Rennard must apologise. "What for?", say his friends. We'll ask
:00:49. > :00:53.senior Lib Dem minister Danny Alexander whose side he's on.
:00:54. > :00:57.What about the voters? What do they make of the Lib Dems? We hear the
:00:58. > :01:08.views of a Sunday Politics focus group.
:01:09. > :01:19.In the South West, a warning that many councils in the region are on
:01:20. > :01:20.the brink of bankruptcy and may soon be unable to provide the services
:01:21. > :01:24.Portsmouth MP Penny Mordaunt's plunge from the highboard from who
:01:25. > :01:26.else but the Minister for Portsmouth.
:01:27. > :01:31.And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political panel in the
:01:32. > :01:34.business: and in London, Boris Johnson has pledged to recruit more
:01:35. > :01:46.volunteers. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting
:01:47. > :01:48.throughout the programme. First this morning, Nick Clegg is
:01:49. > :01:51.considering a fresh investigation into the behaviour of the party s
:01:52. > :02:00.former chief executive, Lord Rennard. Last week, a lawyer
:02:01. > :02:03.appointed by the party decided that no action could be taken against
:02:04. > :02:06.him, but that women who had accused the Lib Dem peer of inappropriate
:02:07. > :02:16.behaviour "were broadly credible". More than 100 party activists are
:02:17. > :02:19.demanding an apology. Chris Rennard say he's nothing to apologise for
:02:20. > :02:23.and the party whip must be returned to him. Helen, this is not going
:02:24. > :02:29.away. It is turning into a crisis for the Lib Dems? They have only got
:02:30. > :02:36.seven female MPs. There is no female Cabinet Minister. There is a
:02:37. > :02:40.reasonable chance that after the next election there might in no
:02:41. > :02:44.female Liberal Democrat MPs at all. A scandal like this will not
:02:45. > :02:50.encourage women into the party. Have they made a complete mess of it You
:02:51. > :02:56.feel for Nick Clegg, because he launched an utterly rigorous
:02:57. > :03:01.process. He called in a QC. The QC looked at it and decided that the
:03:02. > :03:05.evidence did not meet the burden of proof in a criminal trial. But
:03:06. > :03:10.clearly he felt that the evidence from these women was very credible
:03:11. > :03:17.and serious. He said it was broadly credible. Clearly it was serious.
:03:18. > :03:21.Rennard is being advised by Lord Carlisle, fellow Liberal Democrat
:03:22. > :03:26.peer, who is giving purely legal advice. He is saying it has not
:03:27. > :03:33.reached that edge-mac, so do not apologise. This is a political
:03:34. > :03:38.issue, so the agony continues. Nick Clegg was hoping to keep the party
:03:39. > :03:42.whip withdrawn. But they did not launch an enquiry, the Webster
:03:43. > :03:50.enquired it was not an enquiry, it was a legal opinion. You're right,
:03:51. > :03:53.it was an internal opinion. The Lib Dems distinguished themselves from
:03:54. > :03:57.the other two parties not with policy, but with ethics. They
:03:58. > :04:01.presented themselves as being cleaner, and in possession of more
:04:02. > :04:15.Robert Jay than Labour and the Conservatives. That will be harder
:04:16. > :04:19.to do now. -- more probity. There are a Lib Dem peers that are more
:04:20. > :04:24.relaxed about taking him back and letting him pick up the party whip.
:04:25. > :04:30.That is the problem. There is a generational issue. The older Lib
:04:31. > :04:35.Dems in the House of Lords, the kind of thing, he did not do anything
:04:36. > :04:39.that wrong. The younger activists and those outside the House of
:04:40. > :04:44.Lords, they think it is a pollen. Yes, there is definitely a sort of
:04:45. > :04:48.what you are complaining about sort of thing. That is symptomatic of a
:04:49. > :04:56.cultural difference. The report last year found that they tried to manage
:04:57. > :04:58.the allegations. They did not do what any company would do if there
:04:59. > :05:05.was an allegation of sexual harassment. If there had not in the
:05:06. > :05:09.by-election in Eastleigh, this story may not have got the attention it
:05:10. > :05:13.did. Channel four news are the one that really drove this. Without
:05:14. > :05:18.their reporting, this might not have come out. It is not going to go
:05:19. > :05:29.away, because the issue of whether he gets the party whip back will
:05:30. > :05:31.come week. -- will come up this week.
:05:32. > :05:34.So it's not been a great week for the Liberal Democrats and none of
:05:35. > :05:37.this will help public perceptions of a party already struggling in the
:05:38. > :05:40.polls. In a moment, I'll be talking to the second most senior Liberal
:05:41. > :05:43.Democrat in the land, Danny Alexander. First, Adam Fleming went
:05:44. > :05:46.to Glasgow to find out what voters there made of the party.
:05:47. > :05:49.Let's put the Lib Dems under the microscope in Glasgow. We have
:05:50. > :05:54.recruited some Glaswegians who have voted for them, and some who have
:05:55. > :05:57.not. Hello, John. Let's get started. I will be watching them through the
:05:58. > :06:00.one-way mirror, along with the former Liberal Democrat MP John
:06:01. > :06:03.Barrett. Let's get to the heart of the matter straightaway. If the Lib
:06:04. > :06:07.Dems were a biscuit, what would they be? Tunnock's Teacake. Hard on the
:06:08. > :06:14.outside but soft in the middle. They give in. There is no strength of
:06:15. > :06:22.character there. They just give in to whoever. Ouch. Rich Tea. A bit
:06:23. > :06:30.bland and boring. Melts and crumbles under any sort of heat and pressure.
:06:31. > :06:33.Morrison's own brand of biscuit not top of the range like Marks
:06:34. > :06:43.Spencer or Sainsbury's or Waitrose. A custard cream, sandwiched between
:06:44. > :06:46.David Cameron and the Tories. I think they were concerned that they
:06:47. > :06:49.had one exterior, but something else was really inside. They did not find
:06:50. > :06:59.it too definitive, too clear, too concise, too tasty, too appealing.
:07:00. > :07:04.Which means? It is a worry. If that is their gut reaction, literally,
:07:05. > :07:08.let's find out what is behind it. The context of them being stuck
:07:09. > :07:15.between a rock and a hard place for them as a party, I feel slightly
:07:16. > :07:18.sorry for them. I think people who voted for them will think they are
:07:19. > :07:23.victims as well, being sold down the river by going to the coalition I
:07:24. > :07:28.think the ones, particularly student fees, that was an important one to a
:07:29. > :07:33.lot of people. People felt cheated. I agree. Just going back on that, so
:07:34. > :07:42.publicly and openly, it makes you think, well, what do they stand for?
:07:43. > :07:45.It is trust. Harsh. But our group is feeling quite upbeat about the state
:07:46. > :07:52.of the economy. What have the Lib Dems contributed to that? I am not
:07:53. > :07:59.quite sure. It is George Osborne, a Conservative, who is the Chancellor,
:08:00. > :08:02.so it is mostly down to him. The Liberal Democrats are mostly on
:08:03. > :08:06.their coat tails, if you know what I mean. Have the Lib Dems done
:08:07. > :08:09.anything, anyone? I think the Liberal Democrats were responsible
:08:10. > :08:14.for increasing the tax allowance, ?10,000 for next year. I think they
:08:15. > :08:22.have played a major role in that. Yes. I am glad somebody noticed
:08:23. > :08:24.that. We will have helped everyone who is receiving a salary, and it is
:08:25. > :08:39.interesting that nobody has mentioned that. Now, let's talk
:08:40. > :08:43.about personalities. Everyone knows him, but what about say, this guy?
:08:44. > :08:47.Alexander. Danny, they got it straightaway. I actually quite like
:08:48. > :08:50.him. I think he talks very clearly and it is easy to understand what he
:08:51. > :08:57.says. Fellow redhead Charles Kennedy is popular as well. He is very
:08:58. > :09:04.charismatic and it is through him that I voted Liberal the last few
:09:05. > :09:08.times. But who is this? I recognise him but I cannot tell you his name.
:09:09. > :09:10.That is the party's leader in Scotland, Willie Rennie, and the
:09:11. > :09:14.party's role in the upcoming referendum on independence draws a
:09:15. > :09:20.blank as well. It does not feel like they have featured, it is SNP and
:09:21. > :09:35.Labour and Conservative. They are last in a four horse race. We have
:09:36. > :09:38.been talking about the biggest issue in Scottish politics, independence
:09:39. > :09:42.and the referendum and the Lib Dems are nowhere. They are not mentioned
:09:43. > :09:45.and they seem to think it is all about Labour and the SNP. The Lib
:09:46. > :09:48.Dems are part of the Better Together campaign and we are being drowned
:09:49. > :09:54.out among that. Looking to the future, what messages do voters have
:09:55. > :10:00.for the Lib Dems? Get a backbone. Do not go back on your policies or your
:10:01. > :10:08.word. Be strong and decisive. If you will pardon the expression, man up.
:10:09. > :10:14.DIY, do it yourself. Do not award bankers and other people for
:10:15. > :10:18.failure. Stand up. Be your own person, party. If that focus group
:10:19. > :10:24.represented the whole country, what would the result for the Lib Dems be
:10:25. > :10:29.at 2015 in the election? If they get the message across between now and
:10:30. > :10:33.then, the result could be OK. If they do not get the message across,
:10:34. > :10:39.the result could be disaster. Maybe they would do a lot better on their
:10:40. > :10:42.own. I do not think you are seeing the true Lib Dems because they are
:10:43. > :10:47.in the coalition. They maybe deserve another chance. Crucially for the
:10:48. > :10:50.Lib Dems, that means there is some hope, but there is also plenty of
:10:51. > :10:59.anger, some disappoint, and a bit of bafflement as well.
:11:00. > :11:03.And watching that with me, senior Liberal Democrat and Chief Secretary
:11:04. > :11:08.to the Treasury Danny Alexander Welcome to the programme. One of the
:11:09. > :11:11.things that comes through from the focus group is that if there is any
:11:12. > :11:17.credit around for the economic recovery, it is the Tories that are
:11:18. > :11:22.getting it, and you are not? What can you do about that? The first
:11:23. > :11:26.thing to say is that the economy would not be recovering if it was
:11:27. > :11:31.not for the Liberal Democrats. If it was not for our decision right
:11:32. > :11:35.beginning in 2010 to form a strong, stable coalition government that to
:11:36. > :11:39.deal with the problems, we would still be in the mess that Labour
:11:40. > :11:44.left us with. Why are you not getting the credit? That was one
:11:45. > :11:52.focus group. It was interesting to hear opinions. We have to work very
:11:53. > :11:56.hard to get across the message that the economy would not be recovering
:11:57. > :11:59.without the Liberal Democrats. People would not be seeing the
:12:00. > :12:04.largest income tax cuts for a generation without the Liberal
:12:05. > :12:07.Democrats. The ?10,000 threshold that one of the people referred to
:12:08. > :12:14.is coming into peoples pay packets this year. Lots of people recognise
:12:15. > :12:21.that. There was the one person in the focus groups. This is your
:12:22. > :12:25.measure of success, raising the people at which people pay income
:12:26. > :12:30.tax. But most of the voters do not even give you credit for that. The
:12:31. > :12:34.role that we haven't British politics as a party, is that we are
:12:35. > :12:39.the only party that can be trusted to deliver a fair society and a
:12:40. > :12:44.strong economy. People know they cannot trust the Labour Party. We
:12:45. > :12:52.saw it again from Ed Miliband this morning. You cannot trust the Labour
:12:53. > :12:57.Party with the nation's finances. It may well be your policy, the income
:12:58. > :13:02.tax threshold, but it is the Tories that are getting the credit? I do
:13:03. > :13:06.not think that is true. I have spent lots of time meeting photos and lots
:13:07. > :13:09.of people recognise that if it was not for the Liberal Democrats,
:13:10. > :13:16.people would not be seeing those tax cuts. We are helping disadvantaged
:13:17. > :13:19.children in schools. It is right that we have to work very hard
:13:20. > :13:23.between now and polling day to do several things, to make sure that we
:13:24. > :13:28.secure the recovery, there can be no complacency. The economic recovery
:13:29. > :13:32.is in its early stages and we need to make sure it is sustainable. We
:13:33. > :13:36.need to make sure the benefits of the recovery are shared out people
:13:37. > :13:45.who have made sacrifices, people on low pay, people who have seen their
:13:46. > :13:48.savings are eroded. The Tories have now hijacked another Lib Dem
:13:49. > :13:53.policy, another big hike in the minimum wage. You spoke about the
:13:54. > :13:58.need to make sure that people on low pay benefit from the recovery, a big
:13:59. > :14:02.hike in the minimum wage. Did the Chancellor consulting on this? We
:14:03. > :14:09.have been talking about it for some time. Vince Cable asked the low pay
:14:10. > :14:12.commission for advice on this. Why did Vince Cable not make this
:14:13. > :14:18.announcement, why was it the Chancellor? Let me say a few other
:14:19. > :14:22.things about this. If we are going to secure the recovery, this year we
:14:23. > :14:26.have to make sure that businesses start investing. We have got to get
:14:27. > :14:30.Roddick typically rising. An increase in the minimum wage is
:14:31. > :14:35.something that needs to follow that. We will not do it unless the low pay
:14:36. > :14:40.commission adviser as it is important for the economy at this
:14:41. > :14:44.stage. Did you know the Chancellor was coming out with that statement?
:14:45. > :14:50.I did not know he was going to say something on that particular day. We
:14:51. > :14:54.have worked together on it in the tragedy to see what the economic
:14:55. > :14:57.impact would be, and to emphasise that it is the commission, which has
:14:58. > :15:05.credibility with business, trade unions and government. It must not
:15:06. > :15:09.be a politically motivated increase. So you did not know, and Vince
:15:10. > :15:18.Cable, and it is properly a matter for him as the Business Secretary,
:15:19. > :15:22.he did not make the announcement? I don't think that's right. I don t
:15:23. > :15:29.clear every word I say with him I don't expect him to do the same to
:15:30. > :15:37.me. The Lib Dems have told us before it was the Treasury that was
:15:38. > :15:42.blocking this from happening. We were going to ask the low pay
:15:43. > :15:49.commission to advise us on bringing the minimum wage back up. During the
:15:50. > :15:54.financial crisis, wages have been lower-than-expected but it's also
:15:55. > :16:00.right, we shouldn't act in a hasty way, we should listen to what the
:16:01. > :16:05.commission has to say, and if they don't recommend an increase we have
:16:06. > :16:12.to make sure economic conditions are there to get it right. Not only are
:16:13. > :16:14.the Tories getting credit for that, our Scottish voters group showed
:16:15. > :16:20.that people have still not forgiven you for ratting on tuition fees and
:16:21. > :16:25.that was a broken promise that didn't even apply to the people in
:16:26. > :16:30.Scotland, where there are no tuition fees! Nick Clegg has been very clear
:16:31. > :16:39.about the issues that that brought up. If you look at our manifesto,
:16:40. > :16:44.the University of London said we delivered about 70% of our policies
:16:45. > :16:51.in the manifesto. They haven't forgiven you for the big one. The
:16:52. > :16:59.big promise we made was to cut income tax the millions of people.
:17:00. > :17:05.That is a policy which is putting money back into the pockets of
:17:06. > :17:08.working people. It is only possible because we are delivering our
:17:09. > :17:15.economic plan in government with the Conservatives. Now we have to make
:17:16. > :17:20.sure, through tax cuts, through looking at issues like the minimum
:17:21. > :17:25.wage and other groups who have made sacrifices, make sure that benefit
:17:26. > :17:29.is shared. I am not going to agree to anything which undermines the
:17:30. > :17:35.confidence of businesses to invest in this country over the next 1
:17:36. > :17:41.months. Speaking of Scotland, the Lib Dems, why do they now look
:17:42. > :17:48.largely irrelevant in the battle for the union? Not one of our focus
:17:49. > :17:53.group even knew who your Scottish leader is. I don't accept that. I
:17:54. > :18:02.have spent a lot of time with Alistair Carmichael and others, we
:18:03. > :18:07.are all making the case every day. If Scotland votes to be independent,
:18:08. > :18:13.it will be in a much worse financial position within the European Union.
:18:14. > :18:19.Scotland will be contributing to the rebate for the UK, rather than
:18:20. > :18:23.benefiting from it. It has been a disaster for your Scottish based to
:18:24. > :18:28.have joined a coalition with the Tories. It may have been the right
:18:29. > :18:31.thing to do, you say it is in the national interest, but Scottish Lib
:18:32. > :18:37.Dems did not expect to be in a coalition with the Tories. By the
:18:38. > :18:42.way I think it is also in the national interests and the interests
:18:43. > :18:48.of the people for Scotland, cutting the income tax of Scottish people,
:18:49. > :18:55.stabilising the economy. We are now seeing good growth. But you are in
:18:56. > :19:02.meltdown. I don't accept that. We will see what happens in the 20 5
:19:03. > :19:06.election. I think we have a record to be proud of, we have played a
:19:07. > :19:10.very important role in clearing up the mess Labour made in the
:19:11. > :19:13.economy, of making sure the Coalition government tackles the
:19:14. > :19:20.problems in this country, but does so in a fair way. I think the
:19:21. > :19:25.biggest risks to the economic recovery over the next few years is
:19:26. > :19:29.either a majority Labour government or a majority Conservative
:19:30. > :19:34.government. Labour you cannot trust with the finances, the Tories want
:19:35. > :19:37.us to play chicken with the European Union which would truly be a
:19:38. > :19:43.disaster to investment in this country. You announced this week
:19:44. > :19:47.that if Scotland votes to leave the UK, it would be the British Treasury
:19:48. > :19:52.that would guarantee all British government debt. There wouldn't be a
:19:53. > :19:56.negotiation, but the backstop would be that even if they didn't take
:19:57. > :20:01.anything, we would still guarantee the debt. What was happening in the
:20:02. > :20:06.markets that you needed to calm them down? We were getting quite a few
:20:07. > :20:12.questions from the people we rely on to lend us money. We are still
:20:13. > :20:16.borrowing billions of pounds every month as a country. Those people
:20:17. > :20:30.were asking us to clarify this point. It was becoming a serious
:20:31. > :20:33.concern? It wasn't reflected in the guilty yields. I follow the bond
:20:34. > :20:40.market quite carefully and there was no sign this was having an impact.
:20:41. > :20:44.That's why the right thing to do was to clarify this point now, rather
:20:45. > :20:51.than the concerns being reflected in what you imply, and I think it is a
:20:52. > :20:54.bad idea for Scotland to vote for separation but it would be wrong to
:20:55. > :20:59.allow for the fact that question is on the table to cost taxpayers in
:21:00. > :21:01.the UK more money and higher interest payments simply because
:21:02. > :21:07.Alex Salmond has put that question on the table. That's why I think it
:21:08. > :21:11.was the right thing to do. There were a lot of calls from the focus
:21:12. > :21:16.group that you need to be different. Nick Clegg has embarked on this
:21:17. > :21:22.aggressive differentiation. Where you can be different is the
:21:23. > :21:27.bankers' bonuses. What conceivable reason could there be for anybody at
:21:28. > :21:35.RBS getting a bonus twice in their salary? We have not been approached
:21:36. > :21:42.by RBS in terms of those votes. I would be sceptical about an approach
:21:43. > :21:50.from RBS if it can. It shows what we have presided over as a party in
:21:51. > :21:54.government, massive reductions. . I'm not asking you about that, I'm
:21:55. > :22:04.asking what conceivable case there can be for a bank that has failed to
:22:05. > :22:07.sell its branches even though ordered by the Government, still has
:22:08. > :22:13.38 billion of toxic debt on its balance sheet, I ask again what
:22:14. > :22:20.possible reason should they get twice salary as a bonus? Your right
:22:21. > :22:29.to say RBS is in a very different position to other banks, it is
:22:30. > :22:33.mostly owned by the state. RBS hasn't put a case to us but they
:22:34. > :22:37.might do so I would like to look at what they would say, but I would be
:22:38. > :22:41.sceptical as to whether a case could be made given some of the things you
:22:42. > :22:48.said, but also the fact that it is a bank that has benefited from the
:22:49. > :22:53.taxpayer standing behind it. Now RBS has to focus more on domestic
:22:54. > :22:58.retail. Let me turn to Chris Rennard, ten women have accused him
:22:59. > :23:04.of sexual harassment. He denies every case. Who do you believe? We
:23:05. > :23:15.have been through a process on this as a party. A report has been issued
:23:16. > :23:19.on this. I agree with Alistair Webster on this, he has made clear
:23:20. > :23:23.that while he cannot prove what happened to a criminal standard
:23:24. > :23:27.that there is clear there has been considerable distress and harm
:23:28. > :23:33.caused. I agree with him about that and that's why it is necessary for
:23:34. > :23:41.Chris Rennard to apologise as he has been asked to do. If he refuses to
:23:42. > :23:47.apologise, should he be denied the Lib Dem whip in the Lords? I don't
:23:48. > :23:50.think he should be readmitted to the Liberal Democrat group in the House
:23:51. > :23:58.of Lords until such time as the disciplinary process, including the
:23:59. > :24:01.apology, has been done properly We are very democratic party, it is a
:24:02. > :24:07.matter for our group in the House of Lords in due course to make that
:24:08. > :24:11.judgement. Party HQ has had a lot of complaints from party members about
:24:12. > :24:14.the fact no apology has been made. The appropriate committee would need
:24:15. > :24:20.to look at that and decide what action needs to be taken because
:24:21. > :24:27.these are very serious matters. We as a party have learned a lot, taken
:24:28. > :24:33.a long, hard look at ourselves, to change the way we work. The apology
:24:34. > :24:37.does need to be made. We are told that Lord Newby, the Chief Whip of
:24:38. > :24:41.the Liberal Democrats in the House of Lords, we are told he has shaken
:24:42. > :24:50.hands with Chris Rennard and welcomed him back. That decision has
:24:51. > :24:55.not been taken yet. I think Lord Newby would share my view on this.
:24:56. > :25:03.Have you shaken his hand and welcomed him back? No, I haven't.
:25:04. > :25:10.Does Nick Clegg have the power to deny Chris Rennard as the whip? I am
:25:11. > :25:14.making it clear that a lack of apology is totally unacceptable and
:25:15. > :25:21.therefore we have to take steps if that is not forthcoming. His view
:25:22. > :25:27.and my view is that Lord Rennard should not be readmitted to the
:25:28. > :25:32.House of Lords if that is not forthcoming. In our party, our group
:25:33. > :25:40.in the House of Lords has two in the end take a view for itself. And they
:25:41. > :25:47.can override Nick Clegg's view? I hope that when they look at this...
:25:48. > :25:58.Do they have the power to override Nick Clegg? They have the power to
:25:59. > :26:02.decide who should be the whip. The failure to follow up the simple
:26:03. > :26:09.human demand for an apology for the stress that has been caused is
:26:10. > :26:26.totally unacceptable. Your party is totally down lighted on this --
:26:27. > :26:32.divided on this. Here is what Lord Carlile had to say. A total
:26:33. > :26:37.nonsense, hyperbole. It is a ridiculous statement to make and we
:26:38. > :26:41.have seen Alistair Webster, the QC who did this investigation, comment
:26:42. > :26:46.on that himself this morning. He has followed the process the party laid
:26:47. > :26:50.down in its rules, which sets the standard for the investigation which
:26:51. > :26:54.asked him to report on the evidence he has found, but he also has a duty
:26:55. > :27:01.of confidentiality and responsibility under the data
:27:02. > :27:14.protection legislation as well. Here is what your activists have said in
:27:15. > :27:19.a letter to the Guardian. This shows there are strong opinions, but why
:27:20. > :27:25.should Chris Rennard apologise for something he denies, unproven
:27:26. > :27:29.allegations, on an unpublished report that Chris Rennard has not
:27:30. > :27:33.been allowed to read? He should apologise because he wants to
:27:34. > :27:38.continue to be a member of the Liberal Democrats and this is the
:27:39. > :27:43.recommendation that has been made by the internal disciplinary process.
:27:44. > :27:49.Webster himself said this was not an inquiry, it is an opinion. If Chris
:27:50. > :27:56.Rennard apologises on this basis, he opens himself to civil lawsuits He
:27:57. > :28:01.says he is not going to do it. As a Liberal Democrat you join the party
:28:02. > :28:06.because you believe in its values, you abide by its rules. One of those
:28:07. > :28:14.rules is that we have a process if there are disciplinary allegations.
:28:15. > :28:17.The committee of the party supported Webster's recommendations, one of
:28:18. > :28:23.which was that an apology should be made because he clearly found
:28:24. > :28:27.distress had been caused. Will there now be a proper inquiry? I don't
:28:28. > :28:40.think any of these legalistic things, I don't think he can have it
:28:41. > :28:46.both ways. Will there be a proper inquiry? Alistair Webster did do a
:28:47. > :28:50.proper inquiry. There was a proper report into what happened at the
:28:51. > :28:55.time and we have learned a lot from this is a party, and the most
:28:56. > :29:01.important thing now is that Chris Rennard apologises. You have made
:29:02. > :29:11.that clear. What kind of biscuits are you? Are you a Tunnocks? Soft on
:29:12. > :29:18.the inside? It is good of you to be advertising a Scottish product. We
:29:19. > :29:23.just wondered if you weren't tough enough to take on Ed Balls. Thank
:29:24. > :29:40.you. More than tough enough is the answer to that.
:29:41. > :29:44.Generally governments are a bit rubbish at IT projects. They tend to
:29:45. > :29:48.run way over budget and never quite achieve what they promised. So the
:29:49. > :29:50.revelations of a former spy that the US and British security agencies
:29:51. > :29:52.were in fact astonishingly efficient at eavesdropping on the digital
:29:53. > :29:56.communications of their citizens came as a bit shock. But just how
:29:57. > :29:58.worried should we be about their clandestine activity?
:29:59. > :29:59.In his latest revelation, former US by Edward Snowden has claimed that
:30:00. > :30:05.America's National Security Agency operates a secret database called
:30:06. > :30:09.Dishfire. It collect 200 million mobile phone messages every day from
:30:10. > :30:16.around the world, accessed, he says, why British and American spies. This
:30:17. > :30:20.week, the president has outlined a series of surveillance reforms,
:30:21. > :30:27.including Ning to the storage of the phone call information of millions
:30:28. > :30:36.of Americans, and no Morse -- and no more spying on allies like Angela
:30:37. > :30:39.Merkel. Critics say that the British intelligence agencies have refused
:30:40. > :30:44.to acknowledge even the need for a debate on the issue. The Foreign
:30:45. > :30:51.Secretary William six says that we have a very strong system of checks
:30:52. > :30:54.and balances. -- William Hague. ?? new line Nick Pickles is director of
:30:55. > :30:57.the pressure group Big Brother Watch. The Labour MP Hazel Blears in
:30:58. > :31:07.on Parliament's Intelligence And Security Committee. They're here to
:31:08. > :31:13.go head to head. Welcome to both of you. Hazel
:31:14. > :31:16.Blears, let me come to you first. President Obama has made some major
:31:17. > :31:22.changes as a result of what we have learned that the NSA in America was
:31:23. > :31:26.up to. But British politicians seem to, they are not up for this kind of
:31:27. > :31:30.thing, they are hoping it will go away? It is not going away and that
:31:31. > :31:35.is why my committee, the Intelligence And Security Committee,
:31:36. > :31:40.has decided to launch an enquiry into whether the legal framework is
:31:41. > :31:47.up-to-date. We have had massive technological change. We have had a
:31:48. > :31:53.call for evidence. Some of the sessions will be open so that people
:31:54. > :31:56.can see what the evidence is. Obviously some of the information
:31:57. > :32:00.will have to be classified, but on the committee, there is a real
:32:01. > :32:04.commitment to say, there is a big debate going on, let's see if the
:32:05. > :32:08.system is as Rob asked as we can make it. The big question is
:32:09. > :32:14.oversight and the call for evidence that the committee has issued is not
:32:15. > :32:17.mention oversight. It is ten years since the Foreign Affairs Committee
:32:18. > :32:23.said that the committee should be a fully elected committee chosen by
:32:24. > :32:30.Parliament and not the Prime Minister. It has changed, actually.
:32:31. > :32:40.The Prime Minister nominates people and the house gets to him -- gets to
:32:41. > :32:47.approve. In America, they have a separation of power, the president
:32:48. > :32:51.does not nominate Kennedy. Basically, Hazel Blears, you're an
:32:52. > :32:56.establishment lackey? I do not think so. Most of the people on the
:32:57. > :33:01.committee have some experience of intelligence and these issues. In
:33:02. > :33:06.this country, we have robust scrutiny, compared to some of her
:33:07. > :33:11.European neighbours. We have Parliamentary scrutiny, the
:33:12. > :33:15.interception commissioners, and ministers have to sign the warrants.
:33:16. > :33:19.But there may be room for improvement, which is why we are
:33:20. > :33:24.having the enquiry. Do not forget, President Obama said that the agency
:33:25. > :33:28.should not have the ability to collect data, he wanted to put more
:33:29. > :33:34.safeguards in. That is essential for the work of the agencies. If you
:33:35. > :33:39.cannot see the data, you cannot take the connections and see the
:33:40. > :33:43.patterns. Some people never talk about the threat from terrorism it
:33:44. > :33:48.is all about travesty. There are several thousand people in this
:33:49. > :33:52.country, as we are talking, who are actively planning to do a country
:33:53. > :33:57.harm. When this debate started in the US, the NSA head stood up and
:33:58. > :34:04.said there are 54 plots that have been detected by this capability
:34:05. > :34:11.that has detected and that in bulk. Now the head of the NSA has admitted
:34:12. > :34:16.that the number is actually zero. It is not the intelligence committee in
:34:17. > :34:21.the US that did the work to reduce that number, it was a Judiciary
:34:22. > :34:24.Committee. The fact that we have two different bodies doing this in this
:34:25. > :34:31.country, it means that you do not get the correct view. How can people
:34:32. > :34:36.have confidence in a body when if you go around Europe, for example,
:34:37. > :34:41.or the world, we are not at the end not requiring judges to not sign
:34:42. > :34:46.warrants? I do not accept that the committee failed on that range of
:34:47. > :34:51.issues. You look at the reports on 7/7. Two reports by the committee
:34:52. > :34:56.get to the heart of it. If you look at that terrorist attack on our
:34:57. > :35:00.country, people will say, why did you not have them on the radar? The
:35:01. > :35:06.agencies are between a rock and a hard race. They have got to be
:35:07. > :35:15.subject to oversight, but beanie capability. Did you know about
:35:16. > :35:19.Dishfire? We go to GCHQ on a regular basis and I know about the
:35:20. > :35:27.capabilities that we have got. Some of the names of these programmes, we
:35:28. > :35:31.would not necessarily know. But did you know that GCHQ had the
:35:32. > :35:36.capability to use Dishfire, or to get Dishfire material from the NSA?
:35:37. > :35:41.I knew and my committee knew that we had the capability to collect data,
:35:42. > :35:45.and these days, people do not write letters, they do not use landline
:35:46. > :35:50.telephones, they use the Internet and text in, so it is important that
:35:51. > :35:57.the agencies are able to keep up with that take the logical change.
:35:58. > :36:00.What should happen? The proper legal framework should include, if a
:36:01. > :36:06.company is cooperating, as Google and Facebook do, it should be
:36:07. > :36:12.illegal for GCHQ to hack into them. In the US, Lundberg estimate that
:36:13. > :36:16.this has driven a 35mm and hole in the US economy because people do not
:36:17. > :36:21.trust but there are systems are secure. We need to know that GCHQ
:36:22. > :36:26.are not trying to use a different door into the system, whether by
:36:27. > :36:33.hacking or foreign intelligence We need judicial oversight with judges
:36:34. > :36:37.and not politicians signing off The final 30 seconds to you. As a result
:36:38. > :36:41.of the changes in the Justice and Security act, the committee is
:36:42. > :36:45.accountable to Parliament and not the Prime Minister. Those changes
:36:46. > :36:51.are taking place, and I am up for the debate if we need more change or
:36:52. > :36:56.not. But I want British agencies to have more power to protect the
:36:57. > :36:59.people in this country. Thank you to both of you. It's coming up to
:37:00. > :37:03.11:40. You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20
:37:04. > :37:04.minutes, we'll get the verdict of the Minister for Portsmouth on that
:37:05. > :37:38.dive from the Portsmouth MP. Ouch! Coming up on the Sunday Politics in
:37:39. > :37:41.the South West ` a warning that many councils in the region face
:37:42. > :37:43.financial crisis and may be unable to deliver the services they're
:37:44. > :37:47.required to by law. And for the next 20 minutes, I'm
:37:48. > :37:50.joined by former Cornish MP and now Labour Councillor Candy Atherton and
:37:51. > :37:54.Stephen Gilbert, Lib Dem MP for St Austell and Newquay. Yet another
:37:55. > :38:14.Cornish MP, Dan Rogerson, the Minister for Flooding found himself
:38:15. > :38:21.at the sharp end again this week. Edging, yes or no? Dredging. I just
:38:22. > :38:25.want you to answer the question, will you pay for dredging. The
:38:26. > :38:30.government will put money into schemes which we think will work. If
:38:31. > :38:36.we can make a contribution to that, we will be keen to do that. Maybe
:38:37. > :38:40.some as a people should hold their breath for the dredging money. That
:38:41. > :38:44.is obviously a specific is you for them. But a lot of people are
:38:45. > :38:48.concerned that the government does not have enough financial resources
:38:49. > :38:55.going into flooding. `` fighting flooding. Absolutely. I heard the
:38:56. > :39:01.government say they were putting in more money, and they are not. They
:39:02. > :39:06.have put in some. Yes, but not knowing `` nothing like enough. You
:39:07. > :39:11.have to keep dredging otherwise the water will end up flooding all
:39:12. > :39:15.across Somerset. If you keep salami slicing the Environment Agency, you
:39:16. > :39:21.will end up with more and more flooding. Stephen, Labour keep
:39:22. > :39:28.saying that the flooding budget has overall been cut. Over the spending
:39:29. > :39:35.review period, the budget has been cut? The government is spending
:39:36. > :39:42.millions to protect... But overall, there is a cut? The Coalition
:39:43. > :39:45.Government has also tackled the issue of flood insurance for those
:39:46. > :39:53.businesses and homes which are hit by flooding. People don't want
:39:54. > :39:56.insurance, they want protection. From the experience of my
:39:57. > :40:05.constituency, which had bad flooding in November 2010, 2011 and 2012, is
:40:06. > :40:09.that dredging does work. We need water companies to clear drainage
:40:10. > :40:12.systems more often. We need flood warnings to be kept in place and we
:40:13. > :40:19.need more support for domestic resilience measures. Those measures
:40:20. > :40:23.have been put into place in my constituency since the flooding in
:40:24. > :40:28.2010. They, alongside the funding from the government, really do make
:40:29. > :40:36.a difference. It is about a collective, coordinated approach and
:40:37. > :40:40.not cheap point`scoring. It is not cheap point`scoring to say that you
:40:41. > :40:46.need to put the money in. You have come to this party far too late.
:40:47. > :40:50.That is why those people would put Dan Rogerson in a ducking stool. It
:40:51. > :40:53.was tough for them and the government needs to wake up.
:40:54. > :40:57.Cornwall Council this week voted to build nearly 50,000 new homes in the
:40:58. > :41:00.county over the next 20 years. The Conservative opposition group on the
:41:01. > :41:02.council says far fewer are needed and that government planning
:41:03. > :41:05.guidelines are forcing unsustainable levels of development. But the Royal
:41:06. > :41:08.Town Planning Institute has now weighed in to the debate claiming
:41:09. > :41:11.the government itself is underestimating the true number of
:41:12. > :41:21.new houses needed. Tamsin Melville reports.
:41:22. > :41:26.Even on a grey January day, it is easy why to see why St Ives is a
:41:27. > :41:31.desirable place to live. Councillors want 1000 new houses by 2030. But
:41:32. > :41:36.there is fierce debate over the number and what sort of houses they
:41:37. > :41:40.should be. During the debate this week, one councillor said he is now
:41:41. > :41:46.embarrassed to walk through the streets St Ives because there are so
:41:47. > :41:51.many holiday lets. Looking through the estate agent windows, properties
:41:52. > :41:54.can sell for over ?1 million. Not all the homes being built in the
:41:55. > :41:58.town will be within the reach of local people. But 50% here would
:41:59. > :42:04.have to be affordable, according to the plan. There are too many holiday
:42:05. > :42:08.homes and people with second homes. It would be good to have more
:42:09. > :42:17.housing. We have enough properties in St Ives as it is. This week,
:42:18. > :42:22.Councillors gripped `` voted for a countywide target of 47,500 new
:42:23. > :42:28.houses. Many felt that a lower figure would be respect `` would be
:42:29. > :42:33.rejected by the government, leaving the county without a plan and at the
:42:34. > :42:36.mercy of builders. Based on the experience of other local
:42:37. > :42:40.authorities, this was the best way to get a plan adopted and the best
:42:41. > :42:45.way to stop delay. Delay is something that I really fear.
:42:46. > :42:51.Getting a rejection could delay this by 18 months to two years. That does
:42:52. > :42:55.nothing to protect communities. Our community should decide where they
:42:56. > :43:01.want the developments to be. The decision is based on national
:43:02. > :43:04.projections of population, which opponents say are too high. Some
:43:05. > :43:11.conservatives wanted a lower homes target based on the latest census ``
:43:12. > :43:17.latest census which points to fewer people living in the area. We feel
:43:18. > :43:22.under pressure here. Those figures should be looked at and some reality
:43:23. > :43:30.injected into it. They are losing credibility. Not just in Cornwall,
:43:31. > :43:38.but across the UK. The whole process is wrong. We as councillors must say
:43:39. > :43:44.that it is wrong. Meanwhile, town planners say that the risk of local
:43:45. > :43:49.authorities is to build too few homes. The census showed that the
:43:50. > :43:57.population has gone up but the number of households has gone down.
:43:58. > :44:01.That is not the trend. The trend has been, over quite a long period, that
:44:02. > :44:07.the number of households has gone up because households have got smaller.
:44:08. > :44:13.The 2011 figures were slightly odd. The number of 25 to 35`year`olds
:44:14. > :44:16.living with their parents all together in groups was much higher
:44:17. > :44:23.than we would expect. Probably because of the state of the economy.
:44:24. > :44:27.Cornwall's draft plan will probably out `` go out for public
:44:28. > :44:31.consultation before it is adopted, probably in one year's time. Whether
:44:32. > :44:34.this is localism or not remains contentious.
:44:35. > :44:38.The leader of the Conservative group on Cornwall Council, Fiona Ferguson
:44:39. > :44:44.joins us. Can you just pick up on that final point there from the
:44:45. > :44:47.Royal Town Planning Institute. You claim you are basing your
:44:48. > :44:53.presumptions on the latest census, they are making the point that it
:44:54. > :45:00.was an odd sensors, taken during a time of recession. I think the
:45:01. > :45:07.important thing about what they said is that they are supporting our view
:45:08. > :45:10.that the census numbers, or the Office of National Statistics
:45:11. > :45:14.numbers, are not the last word on the subject. They appear `` they
:45:15. > :45:18.agree with us on the principle. But they are going the opposite way on
:45:19. > :45:23.the numbers. What they are saying is that it can vary from area to area
:45:24. > :45:30.and at the 2011 census numbers may not be correct for individual areas.
:45:31. > :45:35.But I think, in relation to Cornwall, they need close
:45:36. > :45:39.examination. We still think that the number that the council gave are too
:45:40. > :45:47.high. But they are acknowledging that they have to be looked at area
:45:48. > :45:51.by area. I agree. If we took what the planning Istituto said, they
:45:52. > :45:58.have said that some areas of May have under provision of 30%. If we
:45:59. > :46:05.were talking about that in Cornwall, we would be talking about additional
:46:06. > :46:13.housing, up to 92,000 houses. Those would be ridiculous numbers.
:46:14. > :46:21.Stephen, can `` census is dodgy, but Conservatives are right? No. There
:46:22. > :46:26.are people staying at home and there is less social mobility because
:46:27. > :46:35.there are fewer jobs. What is interesting about the voting in
:46:36. > :46:40.Cornwall Council is that the local candidate did not support the
:46:41. > :46:44.numbers that Fiona is suggesting and I suggest that the number is more
:46:45. > :46:51.about the election than helping people in Cornwall who are stuck at
:46:52. > :46:54.home with mum and dad to get a foot on the housing ladder. That is
:46:55. > :46:59.something that we should all want to see. I get the strong sense that
:47:00. > :47:02.both you and the Conservatives are pretty cross with your own
:47:03. > :47:06.government for not following through this localism pledge and letting you
:47:07. > :47:12.decide. You are saying as Lib Dems that this is a realistically high
:47:13. > :47:14.figure. The Conservatives are making a point of principle, they are
:47:15. > :47:20.making the point of the government that they want to make their
:47:21. > :47:24.decision. The decision was for Cornwall Council is to take. There
:47:25. > :47:30.is a danger of being overturned. All of those of us who are proud of
:47:31. > :47:33.Cornwall and the landscape and history and want to protect that,
:47:34. > :47:38.would want a plan because having a plan is better than not having one.
:47:39. > :47:43.We need a number that is both realistic and defensible and I feel
:47:44. > :47:47.Cornwall Council achieve that. Is that a good plan per se, or is it
:47:48. > :47:54.just to get it past the planning inspector? I think it will get past
:47:55. > :48:01.the Inspectorate, but I think there's a debate be had. We have a
:48:02. > :48:05.higher number. If you meet families who have three or four generations
:48:06. > :48:08.living in one household, that gives you pause for thought because they
:48:09. > :48:15.will not be able to get any foot on any housing ladder. We are not
:48:16. > :48:18.building any social homes or council houses. Unless we can afford to
:48:19. > :48:23.build the number of people that we need for people in the county to
:48:24. > :48:31.live in, we need to keep revising these figures. I voted for 47,500.
:48:32. > :48:38.We are talking about 2300 a year across the county. Many of them have
:48:39. > :48:42.been already been built. It seemed a reasonable sum and we cannot leave
:48:43. > :48:48.ourselves open to developers riding roughshod over us. That is a very
:48:49. > :48:57.good plan, if you do not arrive by a plan, this free for all could
:48:58. > :49:02.continue? There is a big risk with this plan, going forward in its
:49:03. > :49:04.current format, backed by the evidence that the council are
:49:05. > :49:14.putting forward. They are saying that there is a range of housing
:49:15. > :49:18.needed in Cornwall and it is between 47000 and 72,000. If the council put
:49:19. > :49:21.forward a plan which is backed by that evidence bases, then I think
:49:22. > :49:29.what will happen is that the inspector will say, yes, it is
:49:30. > :49:34.72,000. So we have got to challenge this. I think people would be
:49:35. > :49:38.surprised if we did not do so. Councillor Atherton in Falmouth...
:49:39. > :49:43.What would they think if you ended up with no plan for the next 18
:49:44. > :49:51.months? I think the protection of a plan is ill use array is `` is ill
:49:52. > :50:01.use array, is by putting forward the plan we are going to end up by
:50:02. > :50:05.having to 72,000 houses. `` the protection of the plan is an
:50:06. > :50:10.illusion. People would say that the plan was no protection at all. And
:50:11. > :50:15.in addition to that, the terrible thing which was alluded to by
:50:16. > :50:21.Stephen Gilbert, is that there isn't really affordable housing for local
:50:22. > :50:26.people in there. So there is a double problem. An awful lot of
:50:27. > :50:32.houses, possibly up to 72,000, and not affordable by local people. We
:50:33. > :50:38.cannot accept that. Stephen Gilbert, it is fair to say that to go to the
:50:39. > :50:46.public, to say that you just need a plan and that is better than
:50:47. > :50:50.nothing, is not acceptable? No, we're not saying that. Nobody wants
:50:51. > :50:55.to see Cornwall concreted over. But we want a realistic plan to look
:50:56. > :51:01.after those people who are stuck in the private rented sector all
:51:02. > :51:08.inappropriate `` in inappropriate social housing. There is a desperate
:51:09. > :51:15.housing need for local people. What we need is leadership in Cornwall
:51:16. > :51:19.Council. It is invidious for people with homes to say don't build any
:51:20. > :51:22.more. Thank you very much. Figures obtained by the Sunday
:51:23. > :51:26.Politics suggest that nearly a third of councils in the region are at
:51:27. > :51:29.real risk of bankruptcy or finding they are unable to deliver statutory
:51:30. > :51:32.services before the next financial year. The figures from the local
:51:33. > :51:35.authority auditors Grant Thornton also show the South West has the
:51:36. > :51:45.largest number of at`risk authorities in the country. John
:51:46. > :51:50.Danks reports. It is the doomsday scenario that all councils fear. But
:51:51. > :51:56.how likely is it that key services could be in jeopardy? A study of
:51:57. > :52:00.local authorities in England has identified that 30% of councils in
:52:01. > :52:04.the South West could be at risk of reaching a tipping point before the
:52:05. > :52:09.next financial year. Tipping point could mean several different things.
:52:10. > :52:13.It could mean that a local authority could not set a balanced budget, it
:52:14. > :52:17.could mean failures in several services which mount up to be
:52:18. > :52:27.critical. It could mean the inability to deliver certain
:52:28. > :52:32.services. The auditors did not name the council is most at risk but the
:52:33. > :52:37.report is another indication of the pressures facing local authorities
:52:38. > :52:41.as their funding is cut. These small district and borough councils are
:52:42. > :52:46.facing a serious threat. And I urge the Minister is to take it as
:52:47. > :52:52.seriously as it deserves. One year on from that speech and Philip
:52:53. > :52:57.Collins knows all too well about the challenges of running a small
:52:58. > :53:02.council. We are a very small area, lowest wage in the UK. We do not get
:53:03. > :53:09.the same funding as urban areas, it is 50% less and we have more
:53:10. > :53:16.distance to travel for the services that we do. Thankfully, these scenes
:53:17. > :53:20.are a rare occurrence in Exeter. But some local authorities are warning
:53:21. > :53:25.that less frequent bin collections could be unavoidable. At the
:53:26. > :53:32.moment, we collect garden waste on a fortnightly basis. Maybe come 2015,
:53:33. > :53:36.something will have to change there. One way councils could raise money
:53:37. > :53:41.is by increasing council tax but this goes against government efforts
:53:42. > :53:45.to get them to freeze it. Last year, Governor `` councils were told they
:53:46. > :53:50.would have to have a referendum if they wanted to put up council tax by
:53:51. > :53:54.more than 2%. They are still waiting to hear what the threshold will be
:53:55. > :53:58.this year. We are caught between a rock and a hard place. We come up
:53:59. > :54:04.with ways of setting a budget and we don't know what the rules are yet.
:54:05. > :54:09.West Somerset council would have had to raise its council tax by 39% to
:54:10. > :54:13.make ends meet when it faced bankruptcy in 2012. It had to
:54:14. > :54:18.radically restructure and now shared services with neighbouring councils.
:54:19. > :54:20.The report from the auditors suggests that other South West
:54:21. > :54:23.councils might have to follow suit. Joining us in the studio is the
:54:24. > :54:30.self`declared leader of the peasants' revolt on council funding,
:54:31. > :54:36.Conservative MP Neil Parish. This bears out a lot of the fear is that
:54:37. > :54:42.you have? Yes, we need a fairer share for our schools across
:54:43. > :54:47.Cornwall but it also shows that the local authorities themselves have to
:54:48. > :54:53.restructure. West Somerset does not need a lot of Chief officers, it
:54:54. > :54:57.needs good services. Torbay is too small. With all those things
:54:58. > :55:01.together, we can make the money go further. My demands for more money
:55:02. > :55:05.for oral authorities but also we need to spend it wisely. I know
:55:06. > :55:10.Stephen Gilbert would like more money. I had this discussion with
:55:11. > :55:14.both of you last year. We are at this time of year again, you both
:55:15. > :55:18.thought the local government settlement was terrible last year,
:55:19. > :55:25.it is before us again. Will you wrote it down? Let's be clear, it
:55:26. > :55:30.was terrible and the government has taken no efforts to address the
:55:31. > :55:36.disparity between the amount going to rob areas and urban areas. If
:55:37. > :55:39.there is no progress in reducing that, I will think very carefully
:55:40. > :55:45.about whether to support the government on this. We need help.
:55:46. > :55:51.Rural services are suffering and there are high costs involved. As
:55:52. > :55:55.far as I'm concerned, we are meeting with Eric pickles. We are getting
:55:56. > :56:00.somewhere and whether we have enough, I do know. That is why won't
:56:01. > :56:05.be ready to rebel if we need to. The government needs to take it
:56:06. > :56:13.seriously. They both say the problem is that this government is sticking
:56:14. > :56:17.with Labour's bad old formula. And they all talked about how wonderful
:56:18. > :56:21.it was going to be with them. They have a point, which was partially
:56:22. > :56:26.addressed, but not enough. They have not turned up with the goods
:56:27. > :56:31.either. I await with interest, because I do not believe that you
:56:32. > :56:38.will vote against, not on a critical issue. We were left with a deficit
:56:39. > :56:46.of ?1 billion and that is what we have to clear up. Clearly, this
:56:47. > :56:52.report found that role areas were not an issue, but size matters. ``
:56:53. > :56:58.rural areas. We have a lot of tiny councils in the South West. Some
:56:59. > :57:04.people said that we need big unitary councils. I will not say what Devon
:57:05. > :57:11.should do and I would not say that Cornwall is in a good position as a
:57:12. > :57:20.unitary. ?197 million of arrears is a nightmare. What is a nightmare is
:57:21. > :57:23.the previous government which crashed the economy and fails to
:57:24. > :57:28.take any responsibility for the consequences. It is good here you
:57:29. > :57:32.finally apologising for the funding settlement that Cornwall has had for
:57:33. > :57:40.decades. If you look at the resilience to some of the budget
:57:41. > :57:45.changes because of certain measures because of unitary measures `` only
:57:46. > :57:52.`` becoming unitary, it vindicates that decision. Evolution, not
:57:53. > :57:55.revolution. It costs money and does not deliver better services.
:57:56. > :58:01.Neil, you feature in our regular round`up of the political week in 60
:58:02. > :58:05.seconds. The cost of policing last year's
:58:06. > :58:12.pilot badger culls was ?2.4 million. ?1,300 for every badger killed. This
:58:13. > :58:16.is the price of democracy. We allow people to demonstrate against the
:58:17. > :58:19.cull. They have got in the way of the cull and caused extra police
:58:20. > :58:22.cost. MPs say the government should
:58:23. > :58:27.provide more nurses and give people at the end of their life the choice
:58:28. > :58:30.not to be in hospital at all. We know the vast majority of people
:58:31. > :58:35.would prefer to die at home and less than one third get the opportunity
:58:36. > :58:39.to do so. As Devon faces a ?750,000 bill to
:58:40. > :58:45.mend its weatherworn roads, the Prime Minister is asked to help.
:58:46. > :58:48.Unless there is a massive investment from outside, the safety factor on
:58:49. > :58:55.our roads will just get worse. The danger factor will increase.
:58:56. > :58:56.And the region celebrates EU protected status for its beef and
:58:57. > :59:13.lamb. A double bill of Neil Parish on tape
:59:14. > :59:24.and in the studio. Stephen Gilbert, Ye has got a point, you have illegal
:59:25. > :59:34.activity and if you have it breaking the law, it should not cost? It is a
:59:35. > :59:41.contentious issue. But on the policing cost, it is the defence of
:59:42. > :59:45.democracy? It might be the defence of democracy, but I question the
:59:46. > :59:51.whole coal of badgers that the whole cult of badgers. If they put the
:59:52. > :59:58.money into vaccination, we would be in a better place now. You defend
:59:59. > :00:05.the badger cull. It has gone pretty badly, though hasn't it? Vaccination
:00:06. > :00:12.will not work because it will not kill infected badgers. The last
:00:13. > :00:16.government had barricaded. `` prevaricated. If we want healthy
:00:17. > :00:19.food in this country, we have to have a cull. Thank you to you all.
:00:20. > :00:23.That's the Sunday have a cull. Thank you to you all.
:00:24. > :00:33.houses being built by the mayor Andrew, back to you. Welcome back.
:00:34. > :00:38.Now she made quite a splash last night. I am talking, of course, of
:00:39. > :00:42.the Portsmouth North MP, Penny Mordaunt. If you missed her first
:00:43. > :00:43.appearance in ITV's celebrity diving competition show, here she is in
:00:44. > :01:15.action. APPLAUSE
:01:16. > :01:18.Here is a lady who is more used to campaigning for votes than diving
:01:19. > :01:24.for them. She created far too much rotation. Hard work has gone into
:01:25. > :01:35.the start of this dive to try and control it. That looked painful Now
:01:36. > :01:38.the Portsmouth North MP got voted off the show last night but what
:01:39. > :01:40.about the verdict that really matters? The newly appointed
:01:41. > :01:47.Minister for Portsmouth, Michael Fallon, is here. Welcome to the
:01:48. > :01:52.programme. I would give her ten out of ten for bravery. I was cheering
:01:53. > :01:56.her on. She was doing this for a local charity, raising money for the
:01:57. > :02:02.local swimming pool. She was a good sport. As Minister for Portsmouth,
:02:03. > :02:06.can we expect to see you in your swimming trunks for the next
:02:07. > :02:11.series? I do not think I have the spare time at the moment. But there
:02:12. > :02:16.is a big challenge in Portsmouth. Penny Mordaunt and the other local
:02:17. > :02:21.MPs there have been remorseless in asking ministers to help the city.
:02:22. > :02:31.They are losing jobs. There is a goblin Trinity -- there is a big
:02:32. > :02:35.opportunity to create jobs. Should she have been on a celebrity
:02:36. > :02:41.television show of their role these problems in Portsmouth? This was in
:02:42. > :02:44.her spare time and it is raising money for a good cause. I do not
:02:45. > :02:50.think we should eat two sniffy about it. Did I not see you dressed up on
:02:51. > :02:57.Thursday night, doing your programme? This is my job. This is
:02:58. > :03:08.not her job. It was in her spare time, she was raising money for a
:03:09. > :03:13.local charity. Your Minister for Portsmouth. Are we going to have a
:03:14. > :03:16.minister for every town? Are we going to have a minister for
:03:17. > :03:21.Chipping Sodbury? Chipping Sodbury does not have the issues that
:03:22. > :03:28.Portsmouth have -- that Portsmouth has. There are jobs at risk in
:03:29. > :03:34.shipbuilding. The government puts in a lot of money through the regional
:03:35. > :03:39.growth fund, some ?20 million. There are range of government funding
:03:40. > :03:44.streams going into Portsmouth. My job is to make sure that is properly
:03:45. > :03:47.coordinated. I need to make sure that Portsmouth seizes this
:03:48. > :03:52.opportunity to develop a more broadly -based marine and maritime
:03:53. > :03:57.economy. To make sure a marginal seat stays Tory at the next
:03:58. > :04:07.election? There are marginal seats everywhere. There is a Liberal
:04:08. > :04:10.Democrat marginal the -- seat. Vince Cable and I have been working
:04:11. > :04:16.together for the issues that Portsmouth is facing. We work on
:04:17. > :04:19.these things together. But I have the very specific job of making sure
:04:20. > :04:25.that the effort on the ground is coordinated. So Vince Cable is not
:04:26. > :04:30.the Minister for Portsmouth? I have been there recently, so has Vince
:04:31. > :04:36.Cable. So there are two ministers for Portsmouth? Just a minute. I am
:04:37. > :04:40.making sure that the effort is properly coordinated on the ground.
:04:41. > :04:45.I am determined to turn this challenging time into a proper
:04:46. > :04:51.opportunity. Should we be to Paul faced about this? No, good honour.
:04:52. > :04:56.How much money would be have to pay you to get into a swimming costume?
:04:57. > :05:02.Bid is not enough money in the BBC covers. Good on her. It took seven
:05:03. > :05:08.years to get a leg there's an MP. She should be a minister. It is a
:05:09. > :05:13.pity she has the spare time to do this. She is very talented. It is
:05:14. > :05:18.interesting about the Minister for Portsmouth, up in the north-east
:05:19. > :05:24.they must be sad that they do not have any marginal seats. Nick Brown
:05:25. > :05:30.as David Cameron last July, can we have a minister for the north-east,
:05:31. > :05:34.and the Prime Minister is said no? Does this mean that Portsmouth is
:05:35. > :05:39.more deprived economic late than the north-east? No, it means it is a
:05:40. > :05:42.marginal seat. The Labour Leader Ed Miliband was on
:05:43. > :05:45.the Andrew Marr programme this morning and he outlined plans under
:05:46. > :05:48.a Labour government for an annual competition audit. Here is what he
:05:49. > :05:50.had to say. The next Labour government will have an annual
:05:51. > :05:55.competition at it, not just done by the regulatory body. Alongside them
:05:56. > :05:59.will be the citizens advice bureau, setting the agenda for the future,
:06:00. > :06:04.setting the agenda for how we can ensure that competition will benefit
:06:05. > :06:08.consumers and businesses. I want to see Labour going into the next
:06:09. > :06:12.election as the party of competition, the party of the
:06:13. > :06:17.consumer, the party of hard-pressed working families who are struggling.
:06:18. > :06:20.They need somebody to deal with those issues and that is what the
:06:21. > :06:25.next Labour government will do. I thought you were meant to be the
:06:26. > :06:30.party of competition? We are the party of competition. This is the
:06:31. > :06:34.party that has given us some of these problems. We have an annual
:06:35. > :06:40.competition review in the energy sector. We have already tackling
:06:41. > :06:44.banking. What is interesting about his proposal is it is the smaller
:06:45. > :06:50.ones who are less sure about this, the smaller banks who think that
:06:51. > :06:53.this could inhibit the growth. It is the smaller energy companies who
:06:54. > :06:56.think that through interfering with the market, through his price
:06:57. > :07:02.freeze, that he will hinder competition. We spoke about this
:07:03. > :07:08.before. It is a clever pitch that Ed Miliband is making. Under the guise
:07:09. > :07:13.of token markets and claiming to be the party of competition, he is
:07:14. > :07:20.creating the reason for state intervention? -- broken markets
:07:21. > :07:25.Exactly, and it is state intervention that does not work
:07:26. > :07:30.There is a proud tradition in government of smashing open cartels.
:07:31. > :07:35.Teddy Roosevelt did it nearly a century ago. The problem is, in
:07:36. > :07:40.those situations it was clear and obvious that the consumers were
:07:41. > :07:45.suffering. I am not sure it is entirely obvious in this country. In
:07:46. > :07:49.the banking sector we have free current accounts in the high street.
:07:50. > :07:54.That is not true in all Western countries. In the energy sector our
:07:55. > :07:59.bills are not outlandish they high. It is when we take taxes into
:08:00. > :08:04.account the become unaffordable He has to make the case that consumers
:08:05. > :08:10.are suffering as a result of these monopolies. Ed Miliband would say it
:08:11. > :08:16.is not about state intervention but about making markets work. The piece
:08:17. > :08:20.that was written by his intellectual Duryea about the significance and
:08:21. > :08:24.the importance of Teddy Roosevelt. He was the Republican president in
:08:25. > :08:31.the yearly -- in the early years of the last century. He wanted markets
:08:32. > :08:37.to work. There is an interesting debate on Twitter this morning. Tim
:08:38. > :08:45.Montgomerie is saying, why are we, the Conservative Party, not seen as
:08:46. > :08:51.the party of Teddy Roosevelt? We are seen as the party of business.
:08:52. > :08:55.There are smaller energy companies competing against the big six. In
:08:56. > :09:00.banking, we have seen smaller companies coming. It was the Labour
:09:01. > :09:05.government that created the big six energy companies. I think Teddy
:09:06. > :09:10.Roosevelt also invaded Cuba and the Philippines. That could give us a
:09:11. > :09:17.clue as to Ed Miliband's foreign policy. Nigel Farage has promised to
:09:18. > :09:21.purge the party of its more extreme candidates ahead of the European
:09:22. > :09:28.Council elections in May. But that may not be going so well. Listen to
:09:29. > :09:35.this. The latest in this process is these homosexual laws. And Thomas I
:09:36. > :09:40.shall manage. I believe that the Prime Minister, who was warned that
:09:41. > :09:47.disasters would follow a three went in this direction, he has persisted,
:09:48. > :09:54.and I believe that this is largely a repercussion from this godlessness
:09:55. > :09:58.that he has persisted in. The instructions I have got from now on,
:09:59. > :10:04.or is just not to answer in, and not to give interviews such as this one.
:10:05. > :10:09.So you are ignoring them? I am not ignoring them. But you are talking
:10:10. > :10:16.to me? You are the last one I shall be speaking to. I think it is too
:10:17. > :10:18.late. Who would have thought it It is not global warming that is
:10:19. > :10:25.causing the floods, it is gay marriage? That explains it. Last
:10:26. > :10:30.year David Cameron offered a coded retraction of his statement that
:10:31. > :10:36.UKIP is full of fruit cakes. I think he will be tempted to retract the
:10:37. > :10:39.retraction. It is a warning to lots of Tories who think that their best
:10:40. > :10:47.interests are served by flirting with lace -- with UKIP. Nigel Farage
:10:48. > :10:52.is a very plausible guy, but several layers down, there are people who
:10:53. > :10:56.are very different. Nigel Farage is saying that he's going to clear the
:10:57. > :11:01.party out of what Mr Cameron called the fruitcakes. If he is true to his
:11:02. > :11:07.word, Mr Sylvester's days in the party should they numbered. If Nigel
:11:08. > :11:19.Farage falls under the bus, what is left of place -- what is left of
:11:20. > :11:23.UKIP? People say that they like UKIP because unlike other politicians,
:11:24. > :11:27.they speak their mind. But as it turns into more of a proper
:11:28. > :11:32.organisation, people speaking their mind will be less acceptable. The
:11:33. > :11:39.European elections are always a protest vote. People are not happy
:11:40. > :11:42.with the elite. You will get people saying utterly ridiculous things
:11:43. > :11:47.like that man in Henley-on-Thames. But this is a chance to vote against
:11:48. > :11:56.the entire political establishment. I am not sure that comments like
:11:57. > :12:00.that will make much of a difference. There are lots of arguments about
:12:01. > :12:06.climate change. That was certainly a new one! They are the only big
:12:07. > :12:11.protest party at the moment. Protest party is obviously hoovered up lots
:12:12. > :12:14.of votes. We have got to be clear in European message that we are the
:12:15. > :12:20.only party that can reform Europe and give people a proper choice the
:12:21. > :12:24.first referendum in over 40 years. Mr Sylvester used to be a
:12:25. > :12:29.conservative. You're probably glad to see the back of him? David
:12:30. > :12:33.Cameron is right, there are probably a few fruitcakes around there. I
:12:34. > :12:41.think that mainstream conservatives will understand that this is the
:12:42. > :12:45.only party that can secure European reform and give people the choice
:12:46. > :12:49.they have been arguing for. Whatever happens in the European elections,
:12:50. > :12:53.it is a protest vote. We have almost run out of time. We will see this
:12:54. > :12:59.week of Chris Rennard gets the party whip act. There is a battle brewing
:13:00. > :13:04.between Danny Alexander and the common side of the Liberal Democrats
:13:05. > :13:08.and the House of Lords. If he turns up on Monday and asks to be let in,
:13:09. > :13:18.I they going to make a big scene at the gate of Parliament? And the
:13:19. > :13:22.issue will stay in the papers? Yes, they are clearly nervous that Lord
:13:23. > :13:30.Rennard might be tempted to mount a legal bid. That is all for today.
:13:31. > :13:34.Thanks to all my guests. The Daily Politics is back on Monday at midday
:13:35. > :13:37.on BBC Two. And I will be here again next week. Remember if it is Sunday,
:13:38. > :13:39.it is the Sunday Politics.