:00:37. > :00:42.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. The unions helped
:00:43. > :00:46.him beat his brother to the top. Now Ed Miliband wants to change Labour's
:00:47. > :00:49.relationship with them. Who will come out on top? We will be asking
:00:50. > :00:52.one union baron what he thinks. Cracks in the coalition after
:00:53. > :00:57.Education Secretary Michael Gove sacks the chairwoman of Ofsted. His
:00:58. > :01:00.Lib Dem deputy is said to be hopping mad. We will be talking to the new
:01:01. > :01:04.deputy leader of the Lib Dems, Malcolm Bruce.
:01:05. > :01:06.Caught a bout of the EU blues? David Cameron has been drowning his
:01:07. > :01:10.sorrows with the President of France. Who better? We will be
:01:11. > :01:13.asking if the EU referendum bill is dead in the water.
:01:14. > :01:17.And bad weather getting you down? Getting from A to B a bit of a
:01:18. > :01:19.nightmare? Fear not! The leader of the Greens will be here with her
:01:20. > :01:36.traffic and travel report. Dutch And coming up here: Our council is
:01:37. > :01:37.about to be told to tear up their budgets the next year?
:01:38. > :01:47.Will it provide the kind of reassurance people want?
:01:48. > :01:51.Yes, all that and more in today s action-packed Sunday Politics. And
:01:52. > :01:57.blowing more hot air than I have had hot dinners, Helen Lewis, Nick Watt
:01:58. > :01:59.and Iain Martin. After the row about candidate
:02:00. > :02:02.selection in Falkirk, Ed Miliband said he wanted to reshape the
:02:03. > :02:06.relationship between Labour and the unions. The biggest changes involve
:02:07. > :02:11.union membership of the party, which in turn will affect future Labour
:02:12. > :02:16.leadership elections. Some claim this is Ed's Clause 4 moment. But
:02:17. > :02:19.the unions will continue to be powerful at conference and on the
:02:20. > :02:23.party's ruling committees, and they will still be able to bankroll the
:02:24. > :02:33.election campaign. Here is Labour's deputy leader, Harriet Harman,
:02:34. > :02:36.speaking earlier. What he is proposing for the March the 1st
:02:37. > :02:40.conference is a huge change in financing, in the election of the
:02:41. > :02:45.leader, in what goes on at local level. In due course, it might have
:02:46. > :02:49.implications for the NEC elections and conference. But this is already
:02:50. > :02:52.a big issue to take forward. Joining me now is Paul Kenny,
:02:53. > :03:02.general secretary of the GMB union and chair of the Trade Union and
:03:03. > :03:08.Labour Party Liaison Organisation. Is this Ed Miliband's Clause 4
:03:09. > :03:13.moment? I don't know about that It is certainly a bold move,
:03:14. > :03:17.particularly to have an electoral college, which as you said was the
:03:18. > :03:23.system which elected him in the first place. Everybody admits that
:03:24. > :03:28.has needed reforming for some time. Moving to a one member, one vote
:03:29. > :03:36.situation seems to me to be sensible. I know some people are
:03:37. > :03:41.upset, mostly MPs, who will lose their golden share. But it is
:03:42. > :03:49.nonsense that one MP should have the same vote as 1000 party members So
:03:50. > :04:00.the MPs have lost out. Have the unions lost out? Well, the system is
:04:01. > :04:04.currently that union members get a ballot paper, but they have to
:04:05. > :04:08.declare that they are a Labour supporter and they have to sign to
:04:09. > :04:15.that effect in order to participate. Then their vote is counted. At the
:04:16. > :04:19.last election, about 200,000 trade union members gave that indication,
:04:20. > :04:26.and they participated in that way. That will not change. The way it is
:04:27. > :04:31.organised will be different. The big change in the electoral college is
:04:32. > :04:38.that the logical weight given to MPs will disappear. I wonder if you have
:04:39. > :04:41.really lost anything. At the moment, there are about 3 million people
:04:42. > :04:47.automatically affiliated from the unions to the Labour Party. If only
:04:48. > :04:52.10% of them opt in, that will still mean twice as many union individual
:04:53. > :05:00.members, 300,000, versus about 180,000 Labour Party members. So
:05:01. > :05:04.union members and maybe even the unions will have as big an influence
:05:05. > :05:09.on the leadership elections as you do now, maybe bigger? Well, they are
:05:10. > :05:15.individual votes. Different unions support different candidates. It is
:05:16. > :05:21.lost in the media myth of barons and block votes, but there is an
:05:22. > :05:25.individual vote. Different unions recommend different candidates, and
:05:26. > :05:30.union members vote accordingly. Ed Miliband won more individual votes
:05:31. > :05:37.by a country mile than David, but it got messed up in the process of this
:05:38. > :05:41.electoral college. As I have understood the proposals so far
:05:42. > :05:49.they are not a done deal. There is a lot of discussion. But it seems
:05:50. > :05:52.there are three hurdles. Firstly, union members themselves will have
:05:53. > :05:55.to agree whether they want to affiliate to the Labour Party. If
:05:56. > :06:02.they don't, the rest of it falls. If they decide they do my they will ask
:06:03. > :06:06.union members to support that an individual basis the next five
:06:07. > :06:11.years, which will have financial implications. Then there will be a
:06:12. > :06:15.third position, which is that people who may want to agree with the
:06:16. > :06:19.union's position and affiliate with the Labour Party may want to go
:06:20. > :06:22.further and become active supporters of the Labour Party, participating
:06:23. > :06:28.in leadership elections. They will have to give their sanction to that
:06:29. > :06:31.at a third stage. So the implications in terms of
:06:32. > :06:38.constituency parties and so on are a lot less than the idea that the 3
:06:39. > :06:42.million who are currently affiliated will change. At the moment, the
:06:43. > :06:49.unions, because of the automatic affiliation, hand over a affiliation
:06:50. > :06:52.fees of about ?8 million a year to Labour. You will now get to keep
:06:53. > :07:00.that money, because the individuals will have to put up the money
:07:01. > :07:03.themselves. You can keep that money and determine if you give it to
:07:04. > :07:08.Labour to fight the election campaign, correct? Incorrect.
:07:09. > :07:12.Firstly, the affiliation fees are paid from what is called the
:07:13. > :07:17.political fund, which most unions have to set up in order to
:07:18. > :07:23.participate. The union will continue to pay the ?3 a affiliation fee for
:07:24. > :07:32.those members who want the union to be affiliated. But you get to keep a
:07:33. > :07:37.lot more money. In reality, we will see a transitional period of a few
:07:38. > :07:44.years. Less people will probably say yes, depending on how popular Labour
:07:45. > :07:48.are, about whether they want the union to give money to the Labour
:07:49. > :08:03.Party. The GMB has already done this. By the way, don't call me
:08:04. > :08:06.kneel. It is Andrew or Mr Neil. The unions will have a bigger chunk of
:08:07. > :08:10.money because the unions will not be handing over all of the money at one
:08:11. > :08:14.time. But you could still play a major part in funding the Labour
:08:15. > :08:20.election campaign. We'll how much you give the dependent on what the
:08:21. > :08:28.Labour Party puts in its manifesto? Of course it will. It will have to
:08:29. > :08:33.justify our support to Labour for the members who provide money to the
:08:34. > :08:37.political fund. If we did not argue for the cert is social justice
:08:38. > :08:41.campaigns and laws we want to see, we would be failing in our job. I
:08:42. > :08:45.don't intend to hide that from anybody. The unions are there to
:08:46. > :08:52.fight for their members. That is our job. So you will still be a major
:08:53. > :08:56.part of the bankroll of the Labour campaign. You will still have 5 % of
:08:57. > :09:00.the votes at a Labour conference, and you will still have a major part
:09:01. > :09:04.in the Labour National executive committee and the policy committee.
:09:05. > :09:14.It is right to say the unions are still at the heart of Labour, are
:09:15. > :09:16.they not? Well, if you sick to break the affiliated link between trade
:09:17. > :09:22.unions and the Labour Party, the whole thing collapses. That is what
:09:23. > :09:26.anchors the Labour Party as far as we are concerned. Many of our
:09:27. > :09:30.members think that when they want to look for ferrochrome and rights
:09:31. > :09:33.social justice, housing and the health service, Labour are better it
:09:34. > :09:38.quipped to deliver that for working people than the current parties
:09:39. > :09:43.That is why we have traditionally supported them. But not at all of
:09:44. > :09:49.our members support Labour, which is why we don't affiliate all of them
:09:50. > :09:53.to Labour. There are over 30 million people in the British labour force
:09:54. > :10:04.now. Union membership is only 6 5 million out of that 30. A 6.5% of
:10:05. > :10:10.that do not vote Labour, they vote Tory or liberal or nationalist in
:10:11. > :10:17.Scotland. So you are a relatively small pressure group. Why should
:10:18. > :10:21.Labour be in thrall to you? We are the biggest voluntary organisation
:10:22. > :10:27.in this country. Sorry about that, but that is the fact. People make
:10:28. > :10:30.conscious choices. My own union the GMB, has been growing for eight
:10:31. > :10:36.years. So this dying picture you are trying to paint... In terms of
:10:37. > :10:39.accounting for the fact that some do not support Labour, that is why
:10:40. > :10:48.unions do not affiliate all of their members to the Labour Party. We have
:10:49. > :10:52.adjusted to that. If you don't like being called Neil, I don't like
:10:53. > :11:00.being called a barren either. What about Mr Baron? I don't like that
:11:01. > :11:02.either. We are representatives of working organisations. It may be
:11:03. > :11:07.inconvenient for politicians to have to listen to working people, but we
:11:08. > :11:15.will continue to press. Lord Baron, thank you very much.
:11:16. > :11:19.So, is this a Clause 4 moment for Ed Miliband? Not really, but to his
:11:20. > :11:22.credit, he is going ahead with this. There was a point at which it looked
:11:23. > :11:27.as though Ed Miliband would back away from reform. To his credit he
:11:28. > :11:32.is trying to create a mass membership party again. But when it
:11:33. > :11:35.comes to the crucial business of funding a general election campaign,
:11:36. > :11:42.these reforms will make Labour more reliant on large donations from
:11:43. > :11:46.trade unions. They could have more power now, because they get to hold
:11:47. > :11:52.back this money, whereas beforehand, they had to hand it over
:11:53. > :11:59.automatically. As Mr Kenny just said, how much they handover will be
:12:00. > :12:03.dependent on good behaviour. Yes, but these are pragmatic reforms The
:12:04. > :12:06.fact that Ed Miliband has a lot of capital in not being seen as a
:12:07. > :12:10.Blairite has helped him get these through . The response has been
:12:11. > :12:15.muted, which suggests good party management on his behalf. That may
:12:16. > :12:18.be because they will still have 50% of the votes at a party conference.
:12:19. > :12:22.Mr Kenny was clear that that could be deal-breaker if they tried to
:12:23. > :12:28.take that away. They have more places at the NEC than anyone else,
:12:29. > :12:33.and party members, if only 10% of them signed up, they will outweigh
:12:34. > :12:38.individual members in the constituencies. It was interesting,
:12:39. > :12:41.how relaxed Paul Kenny was. He was taking thousands of pounds from the
:12:42. > :12:44.Labour Party a few months ago because he was annoyed about these
:12:45. > :12:49.reforms, and now he is relaxed because they still have 50% of the
:12:50. > :12:52.vote at Labour Party conference and Labour Party Parliamentary
:12:53. > :12:56.candidates are still selected in the same way. But there is a simple
:12:57. > :13:00.point here. Yes, you can pick apart what Ed Miliband said and said the
:13:01. > :13:05.unions have too much influence, but the only way he could have gone all
:13:06. > :13:09.the way was to break the link with the trade unions, and he was not
:13:10. > :13:13.going to do that. It was not the Labour Party that founded the
:13:14. > :13:19.unions, it was the unions that founded the Labour Party. Even Tony
:13:20. > :13:24.Blair did not break the link. In that context, Ed Miliband has gone
:13:25. > :13:28.incredibly far. For the last 50 years, this opting into the union,
:13:29. > :13:32.you have to turn to page 50 of your union terms and conditions to say,
:13:33. > :13:36.do you want to opt out of the political levy 's that is going to
:13:37. > :13:43.go, which will mean that when the next Labour leader is elected from
:13:44. > :13:46.the union votes, they will get their ballot from the Labour Party and you
:13:47. > :13:51.will append the fast where ballots went out from Unison macro and GMB
:13:52. > :13:57.with a picture of Ed Miliband on the front of the ballot paper saying,
:13:58. > :14:01.vote for aid. They were Stasi and Saddam Hussein ways of trade union
:14:02. > :14:06.members electing the Labour leader, which will go. I am sorry his
:14:07. > :14:10.Lordship is not still here to answer that question.
:14:11. > :14:14.HMS Coalition is not a happy ship. The lovey-dovey days in the rose
:14:15. > :14:17.garden are long gone. It is not a loveless marriage, perhaps even an
:14:18. > :14:20.open one. The latest split is over the decision by Education Secretary
:14:21. > :14:23.Michael Gove to replace Labour peer Sally Morgan as head of the schools
:14:24. > :14:27.inspectorate, Ofsted. Mr Gove's deputy, Lib Dem David Laws, is said
:14:28. > :14:31.to be spitting blood about her removal, although only through
:14:32. > :14:36.surrogates. He has not said a word on the record. Here was the
:14:37. > :14:47.Education Secretary a little earlier. If there is another
:14:48. > :14:51.opportunity for Sally to serve in a different role at a different time,
:14:52. > :14:56.then I would be delighted to support her in the role which she thinks it
:14:57. > :14:59.is appropriate to do. There is nothing wrong with Sally but there
:15:00. > :15:04.is a principle across government that there should be no automatic
:15:05. > :15:09.reappointment, and that after three or four years, it is appropriate to
:15:10. > :15:14.bring in a fresh pair of eyes. That is good corporate practice in order
:15:15. > :15:22.to ensure that you refresh boards, bring a new perspective, and have
:15:23. > :15:25.tough questions asked. We're joined now by the newly elected deputy
:15:26. > :15:29.leader of the Liberal Democrats Malcolm Bruce. He's in Aberdeen
:15:30. > :15:36.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. David Laws is said to be furious
:15:37. > :15:40.with Michael Gove, is he? I think he is because Sally Morgan has been
:15:41. > :15:45.doing a good job and that has been generally agreed across the whole
:15:46. > :15:48.spectrum. I think Ofsted is an impartial body that inspects all
:15:49. > :15:53.schools and it shouldn't be subject to some kind of political direction.
:15:54. > :15:58.That is the concern, that she is being removed when she was doing a
:15:59. > :16:02.good job and most people thought she should be reappointed. It is
:16:03. > :16:15.strongly rumoured her successor will be a high-ranking Tory backer. Why
:16:16. > :16:21.hasn't David Laws said this himself, have you spoken to him? I have, and
:16:22. > :16:26.I know he is not very pleased about it but he will want to speak to
:16:27. > :16:31.Michael Gove himself when he gets to see him on Monday. The question you
:16:32. > :16:36.have to take on board is that David Laws is the schools minister,
:16:37. > :16:40.effectively the one who has engagement with Ofsted, and he is
:16:41. > :16:45.seeing it being undermined by the Secretary of State. There is a
:16:46. > :16:49.question that if Michael Gove is so pleased with Sally Morgan why is he
:16:50. > :16:54.replacing her, and who will he be replacing her with, and on what
:16:55. > :16:58.basis? Maybe parliament should have a confirmation hearing so that we
:16:59. > :17:07.can be assured that whoever is put in charge is there because they are
:17:08. > :17:12.good at it. Why has he licensed his surrogates to save this rather than
:17:13. > :17:17.saying it himself? He didn't, he knew I was on the programme this
:17:18. > :17:24.morning so I am giving you the answers as best I can. David is
:17:25. > :17:31.perfectly capable of speaking for himself. He hasn't so far. You asked
:17:32. > :17:36.me to come on this programme and David was anxious for me to know he
:17:37. > :17:41.wasn't happy about it, and I can certainly tell you that. I can also
:17:42. > :17:44.give you my own opinion which is that Ofsted is not the Department
:17:45. > :17:52.for Education, it is an independent body. The question you have to ask
:17:53. > :17:58.is will Michael Gove but someone in charge of Ofsted who will have a
:17:59. > :18:03.political agenda? If so, that is not what Ofsted should be used for.
:18:04. > :18:15.Let's move on to your own position. You are 69, white male,
:18:16. > :18:20.middle-class, what is your answer to the party with diversity problems? I
:18:21. > :18:24.don't think that is what they voted on. They felt I had a wealth of
:18:25. > :18:28.experience that would be vulnerable to the party from the period now
:18:29. > :18:31.until the election, not least because the central issues that will
:18:32. > :18:38.concern voters are the economy, and I have a track record of promoting
:18:39. > :18:44.the party's economic policy over many years. But you are not even
:18:45. > :18:48.standing at the next election. No, but we need to get to the next
:18:49. > :19:00.election and my colleagues have confidence that I can do a useful
:19:01. > :19:03.job for the party in that situation. We have developed and delivered
:19:04. > :19:05.policies that I have helped to shape and I want to persuade people to
:19:06. > :19:08.understand the Liberal Democrats have made a fundamental difference
:19:09. > :19:12.to the economic recovery. But you know what has been happening with
:19:13. > :19:17.the Liberal Democrats and their problems with women. Wasn't this a
:19:18. > :19:24.chance to select a woman in a major part? You only have seven female MPs
:19:25. > :19:32.out of 57, not a single Lib Dem woman in the Parliament. Again, why
:19:33. > :19:37.you rather than making a break and bringing someone in onto major
:19:38. > :19:44.positions? My colleagues have concluded that the role I am best
:19:45. > :19:50.qualified to do it, that is why they voted for me. We do only have seven
:19:51. > :20:01.women and that is an issue we need to address. Two of those women are
:20:02. > :20:07.ministers, one is a government whip. We seem to have lost our line to
:20:08. > :20:12.Aberdeen, just as Malcolm Bruce was in full flight defending his
:20:13. > :20:18.position. I'm not sure if we can get the line back, just bear with me for
:20:19. > :20:23.a few seconds to see if we can get it. It looks as if we have lost
:20:24. > :20:27.Malcolm Bruce, I do apologise to Malcolm Bruce and the viewers that
:20:28. > :20:35.we were not able to continue that interview.
:20:36. > :20:38.Fierce winds, torrential rain and a tidal surge have brought more misery
:20:39. > :20:41.to thousands. Official records show that southern England has seen the
:20:42. > :20:44.wettest January since records began in 1767. I remember it well. The
:20:45. > :20:49.Somerset Levels have been hit by weeks of flooding, with little
:20:50. > :20:52.respite from relentless rain. And, the residents of one village on the
:20:53. > :20:58.Levels, Muchelney, has been cut off for almost a month. We sent our Adam
:20:59. > :21:18.out with his wellies and a properly filled out risk assessment form The
:21:19. > :21:21.very wet road to Muchelney. This village of about 100 residents has
:21:22. > :21:29.been cut off for about four weeks, and like the weather vane, it feels
:21:30. > :21:35.a little bit spooky. It came up to here and your front door was there.
:21:36. > :21:39.Anita is just relieved the water stopped here, practically on her
:21:40. > :21:46.doorstep. Now it is the practicalities that are the problem.
:21:47. > :21:53.Driving around for food is quite a hassle. You are foraging. It's not
:21:54. > :21:57.as bad as that but we do have a few bits in the vegetable garden still,
:21:58. > :22:02.and we had some nice apples until the rats ate them but we are not
:22:03. > :22:11.doing too badly on that score. It sounds like the medieval! That's
:22:12. > :22:19.what it feels like. Talking of retro, who knew Somerset still had a
:22:20. > :22:25.Coleman, this is Brian's first delivery since Christmas. Everything
:22:26. > :22:29.has gone old-fashioned. We are now talking to neighbours we might never
:22:30. > :22:35.have seen before or spoken to so we are getting to know more people in
:22:36. > :22:39.the village. She's right, there has been an outbreak of Dunkirk spirit,
:22:40. > :22:46.quite literally. The council and the Fire Brigade have put on this boat
:22:47. > :22:55.service to get people to work and school. The church has become an
:22:56. > :23:01.unofficial flood HQ. This is where people pick up their mail, and this
:23:02. > :23:06.is where the people who run the boat stopped for their tea breaks. It all
:23:07. > :23:12.seems quite jolly, if a bit boring, but it is no fun for the homes and
:23:13. > :23:18.businesses that have been inundated, or for the farmers whose land is
:23:19. > :23:21.underwater, an area the size of Bristol, or for the villages which
:23:22. > :23:26.are less isolated but where the flooding is worse. People like the
:23:27. > :23:32.parish chairman are starting to get angry with how the Government has
:23:33. > :23:38.responded. It was all a bit late. We knew what was going to happen with
:23:39. > :23:42.the amount of rain on the fields and the Government was so slow to
:23:43. > :23:46.react. The county council got the boat going quickly but it was
:23:47. > :23:52.another four weeks nearly before the button was pressed for the major
:23:53. > :23:57.incident. Right on cue, the cavalry arrived in the shape of emergency
:23:58. > :24:01.crews from other parts of the UK. The rumour is that they will bring
:24:02. > :24:06.in a hovercraft but the bad news is that the weather is becoming more
:24:07. > :24:12.grim this weekend. There has been a surge in bookings at the campsite
:24:13. > :24:16.where people have seen the Somerset Levels on holiday and would like to
:24:17. > :24:25.come on holiday, if it ever stops raining. I'm delighted to say we
:24:26. > :24:29.have got the line back to Aberdeen, somebody has put a shilling in the
:24:30. > :24:34.meter. We can go back to Malcolm Bruce. We were talking about the Lib
:24:35. > :24:40.Dem women and your election, I suppose the point some people are
:24:41. > :24:48.making is that your party has as many knights in Parliament as it has
:24:49. > :24:55.women and you are one of them. The good news is that for the five MPs
:24:56. > :25:00.who are standing down, who have had candidates elected in their
:25:01. > :25:05.constituencies so far, all five candidates that have been selected
:25:06. > :25:08.are women. We need to fight hard to get behind those women and get them
:25:09. > :25:13.elected so that we have a much better balanced parliament in the
:25:14. > :25:16.future, but given that we have few women, you really have to pick
:25:17. > :25:34.people appropriate for the job and we have appointed the women as I
:25:35. > :25:41.have said but we need our image to be balanced. How many women
:25:42. > :25:48.candidates will there be come the next election? At the moment, 1 ,
:25:49. > :25:51.five more than we have now, and we haven't finished selection. Where
:25:52. > :25:57.there are men sitting and standing again, that is not likely to change,
:25:58. > :26:01.but where they are standing down we are overwhelmingly choosing women,
:26:02. > :26:08.and in my view good and very able women. What I would want to say to
:26:09. > :26:16.people is that if you want to see the Lib Dems have more women, go to
:26:17. > :26:23.those seats and help us hold them. We are told that only 20% of the 57
:26:24. > :26:28.seats have female candidates and in the unlikely event that you were
:26:29. > :26:34.able to hold onto them all, it still wouldn't be a sea change to have
:26:35. > :26:41.20%. The point is you have to build them up. We are supporting female
:26:42. > :26:46.candidates. These are really good candidates who will make first-class
:26:47. > :26:50.MPs and I certainly believe you will gradually see the Liberal Democrats
:26:51. > :26:55.taking them on. We don't have 3 0 seats that we currently hold like
:26:56. > :27:02.other parties, but what I can tell you is that increasing --
:27:03. > :27:08.increasingly we will have female candidates. One newspaper has said
:27:09. > :27:13.that you will deal with the Chris Rennard fallout quickly and
:27:14. > :27:18.privately, what does that mean? It means I will not be telling you
:27:19. > :27:22.because these things are not helped by comments on the airwaves. I hope
:27:23. > :27:26.it will be possible to have a resolution without people going to
:27:27. > :27:30.court but I don't think it helps anybody for me to comment on any
:27:31. > :27:36.aspect of how this will be done and I'm not prepared to do so. If you
:27:37. > :27:44.are not in full possession of the facts, why did you say you will deal
:27:45. > :27:48.with this privately? I have come into this halfway through, I don't
:27:49. > :27:56.have full possession of the facts, I doubt you do, and we have a process
:27:57. > :28:02.that needs to be followed through. Any comments in public do not help.
:28:03. > :28:09.Isn't it hypocrisy of a high order to hear from a party that is
:28:10. > :28:14.constantly calling for transparency in other institutions but when it
:28:15. > :28:18.comes to your own, you say, I am not going to talk about it. There are
:28:19. > :28:22.all sorts of disputes that happen in the world and often people don't
:28:23. > :28:27.talk about them because talking about them aggravates the
:28:28. > :28:31.situation. I believe you have to deal with them privately and I don't
:28:32. > :28:35.think trial by media in this context is helpful and I don't believe that
:28:36. > :28:41.those who choose to make those comments are making it easier to
:28:42. > :28:44.solve them. There are problems in other walks of life and the Liberal
:28:45. > :28:49.Democrats are not the only ones with these problems. We are trying to
:28:50. > :28:54.change that culture and I think we will do it effectively in our own
:28:55. > :29:05.way. We have a pastoral care officer now and I think that is the right
:29:06. > :29:09.way to do it. Thank you for that. Let's now go back to the story of
:29:10. > :29:17.the flooding in Somerset. We are joined by the leader of the Green
:29:18. > :29:22.party, Natalie Bennett in Millbank. Natalie Bennett, don't the Green
:29:23. > :29:30.party bears some responsibility for these floods? You have sided with
:29:31. > :29:35.the Environment Agency in the decision not to dredge rivers and
:29:36. > :29:39.that is one of the reason why these places have been flooded. Firstly I
:29:40. > :29:46.want to give my sympathy to everyone dealing with these floods. The
:29:47. > :29:54.homeowners, the farmers seeing sodden fields for weeks and weeks.
:29:55. > :29:58.We get that, we all have huge sympathy, particularly because so
:29:59. > :30:03.little seems to be done to help them. What is the answer to my
:30:04. > :30:09.question? I think there is strong evidence that dredging is not the
:30:10. > :30:15.answer. If you think about the flow of the river, where the pinch points
:30:16. > :30:20.are is things like bridges, weirs and towns. If you dredge the river
:30:21. > :30:24.in between those barriers, you just make the water faster to those
:30:25. > :30:29.points. The experts are saying that dredging is not the answer, it may
:30:30. > :30:33.be in particular cases, but you have to look at each river system on its
:30:34. > :30:37.own merits and very often the best way of dealing with this is working
:30:38. > :30:40.out ways to slow the watered down and make sure that people don't
:30:41. > :30:49.suffer unduly while you are doing that. The west of England
:30:50. > :30:52.agricultural Society, which I would venture knows more about the
:30:53. > :30:56.Somerset Levels than either of us, has said that without dredging, this
:30:57. > :31:00.was a disaster waiting to happen. The local drainage boards have been
:31:01. > :31:06.calling for years for dredging to be resumed. The National Farmers' Union
:31:07. > :31:10.has called for it, and the chairman of the West Sussex flood defences
:31:11. > :31:12.has called for more drainage, and he is a drainage engineer by
:31:13. > :31:17.profession. So I don't know where your experts are, but the experts on
:31:18. > :31:24.the ground am not the urban ones in London, seem to think this has not
:31:25. > :31:29.been caused, but made worse by the failure of the Environment Agency to
:31:30. > :31:32.continue to dredge. If you look at the example of the planning and
:31:33. > :31:37.climate change coalition, which is led by the town and country planning
:31:38. > :31:40.Association, who you would not describe as a group of radical
:31:41. > :31:45.greens, these people have said we have to look at how we deal with
:31:46. > :31:48.flooding in the future. But not in Somerset. These are the people
:31:49. > :31:52.currently being flooded, not somebody sitting in a quango office
:31:53. > :31:56.in London. They have asked for this to happen and it hasn't, and they
:31:57. > :32:02.are now flooded in definitely. We have to look at what is happening on
:32:03. > :32:06.a case-by-case basis. If you look at Germany, there are many cases there
:32:07. > :32:10.were, to deal with flooding, many farmers are paid to hold water on
:32:11. > :32:14.their land. Maybe we need to introduce those systems, because we
:32:15. > :32:20.have to protect farmland, but we also have to protect urban areas for
:32:21. > :32:28.safety. We saw a horrible flood in Wales were lines were endangered --
:32:29. > :32:33.where lives were endangered. That is the priority, to protect lives,
:32:34. > :32:37.property and farmland. Lives are endangered at the moment,
:32:38. > :32:42.particularly as this stagnant water turns toxic. And yet we are in a
:32:43. > :32:45.situation, again encouraged by the Greens and the lobbying Environment
:32:46. > :32:48.Agency, it says it does not want to dredge because dredging is
:32:49. > :32:54.expensive, yet it spends millions on a bird sanctuary. That is getting
:32:55. > :32:59.everything totally wrong. The government is getting everything one
:33:00. > :33:06.by cutting on flood defences. It has not cut on a bird sanctuaries. I
:33:07. > :33:14.don't know the details of that. But looking at the broader issue, we
:33:15. > :33:17.have to prepare for climate change. The government has slashed funding
:33:18. > :33:22.to the Environment Agency and has cut back on the number of staff
:33:23. > :33:24.available to deal with it and has removed the requirement on local
:33:25. > :33:31.councils to plan for climate change. These are all gambling the future of
:33:32. > :33:34.our lives and property and the future of our environment. Hasn t
:33:35. > :33:40.the high watermark of greenery now gone well past? You don't come out
:33:41. > :33:43.of the Somerset Levels with any great reputation. The UK government
:33:44. > :33:48.is now going to start fracking as quickly as it can. Brussels is
:33:49. > :33:54.loosening the CO2 obligations for 2030. The President of America is
:33:55. > :33:59.about to give the go-ahead to the keystone pipeline, a totemic issue
:34:00. > :34:03.for American greens, and your party is in a state of civil war in
:34:04. > :34:08.Brighton. It is over, isn't it? Absolutely not. We are seeing large
:34:09. > :34:16.amounts of extreme weather around the world. Any one event is whether,
:34:17. > :34:19.but we are seeing a lot of it and people are recognising that climate
:34:20. > :34:23.change is happening. If we are going to quote international experts, I
:34:24. > :34:27.can quote to you Ban Ki-Moon, the UN Secretary-General, not known as a
:34:28. > :34:32.radical green, and he said after the IPCC report came out that the heat
:34:33. > :34:34.is on and we must act. If you go to Christine Lagarde, head of the
:34:35. > :34:38.International Monetary Fund, again not a radical green, she was asked
:34:39. > :34:43.what kept her awake at night, and she said, we are not doing enough
:34:44. > :34:46.about climate change. So actually, people around the world are looking
:34:47. > :34:50.at what is happening around them are both people on the ground and people
:34:51. > :34:55.in high positions are saying we have to act on climate change. And in the
:34:56. > :35:00.case of Britain, that should absolutely not mean fracking. Sorry
:35:01. > :35:05.to interrupt, but I have evidence that you are planning a little
:35:06. > :35:09.career change. Don't go away. This is what happens when you let Nigel
:35:10. > :35:13.Farage present the weather. One thing leads to another and low and
:35:14. > :35:18.behold, the Sunday Politics now has a new traffic and travel reporter.
:35:19. > :35:24.Let's go back to Green Party leader, Natalie Bennett. Thanks, Andrew It
:35:25. > :35:29.is easy out that, so let's start with our airports. I am pleased to
:35:30. > :35:35.say that Heathrow's third runway, Boris Island and all short-haul
:35:36. > :35:40.flights are, just like our arguments, well grounded. We suggest
:35:41. > :35:46.making or alternative arrangements, like a re-nationalised rail
:35:47. > :35:51.network, although it would be a glaring omission if we did not admit
:35:52. > :35:54.that that plan is currently being delayed by Labour Party foot
:35:55. > :36:00.dragging. Speaking of trains, we are hearing that high-speed two may well
:36:01. > :36:05.be derailing, or at least getting bogged down in political fog. One
:36:06. > :36:12.viewer, Ed Balls, has texted in to say he is completely lost. Thanks
:36:13. > :36:16.for the update, Ed. You are not alone among political commuters
:36:17. > :36:21.Meanwhile, dumped UKIP manifestoes are causing major tailbacks across
:36:22. > :36:27.the South, apparently stretching all the way to Brussels. This does make
:36:28. > :36:37.driving road tricky, but UKIP's MEPs can, of course, just hop on their
:36:38. > :36:41.gravy train. The tree had a roundabout is blocked after reports
:36:42. > :36:46.of a political earthquake. It seems that a green unwound his beard to
:36:47. > :36:49.block a dodgy gas extractor. A motorist who turned out to be the
:36:50. > :36:55.environment minister object into the delay and was told to frack off as
:36:56. > :37:02.furious badgers demanded that he stopped moving the goalposts.
:37:03. > :37:07.Unregulated traffic in the city of London continues unchecked.
:37:08. > :37:11.Pedestrians should try to block bankers with sacks of loot rushing
:37:12. > :37:18.for the payments. But do beware the Lib Dem Exodus that is clogging up
:37:19. > :37:24.the motorways. Although they are in a jam, or is it a fudge, we are
:37:25. > :37:28.happy to make way for them, as, like all refugees, we say they are
:37:29. > :37:35.welcome here in muesli green. That is the travel. Back to you, Andrew.
:37:36. > :37:41.Natalie, I think you make my point. You are now preparing a new career
:37:42. > :37:44.in traffic and travel. Well, I do believe in lifelong education and
:37:45. > :37:48.that was an example of it. We know you have had a tough time today to
:37:49. > :37:56.get to our studio. Thank you for the effort.
:37:57. > :37:58.You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20
:37:59. > :38:12.minutes, we will have Hello, I'm Martyn Oates. Coming up
:38:13. > :38:17.on the Sunday Politics in the South West: The Tory MP who says he's been
:38:18. > :38:20.told the Government's clamp down on solar farms isn't worth the paper
:38:21. > :38:24.it's written on. And for the next 20 minutes, I'm
:38:25. > :38:29.joined by Conservative MP Sheryll Murray and the Labour peer and
:38:30. > :38:32.former DEFRA minister Lord Whitty. The week began with the Somerset
:38:33. > :38:38.floods being declared a major incident. And by end of the week,
:38:39. > :38:41.the Government had sent the Army in. But local residents and MPs want a
:38:42. > :38:44.long`term solution, which many of them think means dredging the area's
:38:45. > :38:47.major rivers. Last week that seemed almost as
:38:48. > :38:53.remote a possibility as it has been for the last two decades. Thereon
:38:54. > :38:58.many places around the country where they think dredging is the right
:38:59. > :39:02.answer and we do it in places and we've done some work at various
:39:03. > :39:06.places. There can be benefits but it's trying to work out what the
:39:07. > :39:11.wider benefit is and then you can justify a greater spend. But it
:39:12. > :39:15.always has to be to do with economic so, however that you calculate it.
:39:16. > :39:22.Then on Monday, a rather embattled Environment Secretary suggested it
:39:23. > :39:26.was creeping a little bit closer. Are you going to do anything fast?
:39:27. > :39:31.Higher vast all interested parties to give me a concrete plan in six
:39:32. > :39:35.weeks which will provide satisfaction. `` I have asked. That
:39:36. > :39:40.may involve dredging the rivers but will involve long`term plans to hold
:39:41. > :39:42.the water back. By Wednesday, though, the Prime Minister coolly
:39:43. > :39:47.announced that dredging would happen almost immediately ` almost as if
:39:48. > :39:51.that were obvious. I can confirm that dredging will start as soon as
:39:52. > :39:58.it is practical, as soon as the waters have started to come down.
:39:59. > :40:02.As the shadow environment secretary said, this was a slapped down from
:40:03. > :40:05.the prime minister to his own environment secretary. I don't think
:40:06. > :40:13.it was. What we have to look at is... He left the environment
:40:14. > :40:18.minister, the floods agency on the hook for weeks. And then he stood up
:40:19. > :40:26.at PMQ is and said, " dredging? Of course" ! The Prime Minister didn't
:40:27. > :40:33.actually say we would start dredging tomorrow. As as soon as possible.
:40:34. > :40:41.That's probably after the six week report has come out. But don't
:40:42. > :40:46.forget, MPs of all parties have been consistently calling for this. One
:40:47. > :40:52.of the things you have to look at ` and Larry may be able to make more
:40:53. > :40:59.comment and expand on this with his Environment Agency hat on ` is that
:41:00. > :41:03.it's not just a one`off thing. You have to continue to dredge because
:41:04. > :41:07.the silt comes back. There seems to be a broad consensus on that now.
:41:08. > :41:10.Labour has generally been critical of the amount of money the
:41:11. > :41:15.government is putting into flood defences but this is a long`standing
:41:16. > :41:22.problem that Rhodri your government didn't want to dredge the rivers in
:41:23. > :41:25.question. Their eyes `` there is a serious problem in Somerset at the
:41:26. > :41:32.moment. People will say it is because of 20 years of neglect.
:41:33. > :41:37.People are overreacting to a campaign in the Daily Mail. Reality
:41:38. > :41:43.is that dredging may be part of the solution but is not the totality of
:41:44. > :41:48.the solution. This is a catastrophic event on already sodden fields,
:41:49. > :41:53.where no water could go anywhere. We had the highest rainfall ever in
:41:54. > :41:55.January since records began. In the face of that, plus the fact you have
:41:56. > :42:05.a tidal river pushing back up words, `` upwards, you've got a
:42:06. > :42:12.situation where no amount of dredging on its own would have
:42:13. > :42:16.helped. Partly, the men and women of the Environment Agency are out there
:42:17. > :42:22.many hours a day trying to help. But the government needs to provide the
:42:23. > :42:26.money for this. I think it's partly a knee jerk reaction by the Prime
:42:27. > :42:29.Minister to avoid the facts that the government are cutting money for
:42:30. > :42:37.flood defence, and trying to pretend they weren't. They had to issue a
:42:38. > :42:41.correction. There is a real problem of diverging attention. The reality
:42:42. > :42:47.is... This was a knee jerk reaction, or due to the Daily Mail.
:42:48. > :42:53.I don't believe that and I think we are seeing these cuts occur more
:42:54. > :42:57.consistently. `` these floods occur. We, as politicians, have to do our
:42:58. > :43:04.best within the financial restraints that we've got... The money has been
:43:05. > :43:08.found for Somerset now. Owen Paterson was right in part of what
:43:09. > :43:12.he said. You have to look at the total catchment area, from the top
:43:13. > :43:14.of the hill right down. Moving on now.
:43:15. > :43:17.Council tax is public enemy number one, according to Local Government
:43:18. > :43:21.Secretary Eric Pickles. He's keeping councils of all sizes waiting to
:43:22. > :43:23.know how much they can hike their share of the bill from April,
:43:24. > :43:26.without triggering a referendum. Some parish councils, currently free
:43:27. > :43:29.from any restrictions, are proposing massive increases ` and Mr Pickles
:43:30. > :43:31.isn't happy about it. Tamsin Melville reports.
:43:32. > :43:36.Public toilets have become a big political issue in Cornwall. And
:43:37. > :43:40.here in Falmouth, there's real anger brewing that a bid to keep their
:43:41. > :43:43.loos open is at risk because of a Government threat to cap the amount
:43:44. > :43:52.of council tax town halls can charge. This is an absolute
:43:53. > :43:55.nightmare. It's a nonsense. It is centralism gone mad, not localism.
:43:56. > :43:59.It's not just the loos Falmouth needs extra cash for ` it's even
:44:00. > :44:02.things like keeping on top of weeds. As Cornwall Council cuts its funding
:44:03. > :44:05.for things it doesn't have to provide, the town council's under
:44:06. > :44:09.pressure to step in to save services like CCTV and some bus routes. It
:44:10. > :44:13.wants to put up its share of council tax by 20%. For the average
:44:14. > :44:22.household, that's ?27.40 extra a year. These are issues that have
:44:23. > :44:25.been very close to people's hearts. Even the local MP isn't saying she
:44:26. > :44:31.understands why we're picking up these services and have to increase
:44:32. > :44:34.the council tax. Clearly, Eric Pickles is living in some ivory
:44:35. > :44:37.tower and doesn't understand what localism is all about. Falmouth's
:44:38. > :44:40.certainly not the only Cornish town wanting to hike its share of council
:44:41. > :44:44.tax. Over on the north coast, Newquay wants to double its precept.
:44:45. > :44:52.And these increases aren't going unnoticed in Westminster. The
:44:53. > :44:55.Government takes a dim view of council tax hikes ` and the big
:44:56. > :44:59.councils already face having to hold a referendum if they increase by
:45:00. > :45:02.more than 2%. Now there's a threat to apply the same thinking to towns
:45:03. > :45:05.and parishes. Falmouth's Conservative MP Sarah Newton thinks
:45:06. > :45:06.that's wrong and has been lobbying ministers ` prompting this
:45:07. > :45:33.unsympathetic reply. So in Falmouth, what do the people
:45:34. > :45:39.think of a 20% rise? I think that's a lot of extra money. Something like
:45:40. > :45:43.another fiver would be enough. I'm not really in favour of it but I do
:45:44. > :45:49.understand why the local council want to do it. I'm not happy but I
:45:50. > :45:52.would pay it! And some argue the Government should give towns and
:45:53. > :45:58.parishes the freedom to get on with their job. I think the town councils
:45:59. > :46:01.are responding to local need. Their role is to maintain and improve the
:46:02. > :46:06.quality of life, not only for the people who live there at who work
:46:07. > :46:10.there or choose to visit there. The whole place relies on having a local
:46:11. > :46:13.input. It's not just town councils playing the waiting game ` all
:46:14. > :46:17.councils are waiting to hear if the increase that triggers a referendum
:46:18. > :46:20.is lowered from 2% to 1.5%. Ministers say they hope to make an
:46:21. > :46:29.announcement in the very near future.
:46:30. > :46:32.We're joined now by the Cornwall councillor in charge of finance. If
:46:33. > :46:37.the referendum limit is brought down, this will cause you real
:46:38. > :46:42.problems, won't it? You set your budget nice and early, you say,
:46:43. > :46:48.based on the 2% threshold. Indeed. We wanted to be prudent and plan
:46:49. > :46:51.ahead as far as possible. By setting a budget in November, it gives us 18
:46:52. > :46:54.months to have a proper conversation with the people of Cornwall about a
:46:55. > :47:01.fundamental change to the way we struck to the council, and also
:47:02. > :47:05.means we can make extra savings of about ?7 million. Brandon Lewis and
:47:06. > :47:10.Eric Pickles faffing until the last minute, playing games, playing
:47:11. > :47:14.politics, does us no favours. Have you got a contingency plan? What's
:47:15. > :47:20.the likely result of the threshold coming down? We'll have to see what
:47:21. > :47:24.they do. I don't want to play their game. I want to get on with doing
:47:25. > :47:28.the best for the people of Cornwall. We've set a budget, which has been
:47:29. > :47:31.agreed by the full council, and we want to get on and run the council
:47:32. > :47:35.as the people of Cornwall instructed us. That's what we think we have the
:47:36. > :47:40.power to do. No hints about what might because it or whether you
:47:41. > :47:44.might go for a referendum? I don't want to go for referendum, mainly
:47:45. > :47:48.because it can't be held until May, two months into the financial year,
:47:49. > :47:53.two months of spending up higher level. To have a referendum is
:47:54. > :47:57.democratic but it is far too late in the day. We need the government to
:47:58. > :48:01.change the rules on finance, to make it simpler and allow councils, like
:48:02. > :48:06.businesses would, to plan in advance so we can be certain. On this
:48:07. > :48:11.increase, we were having a chat just under a year ago. You then said, "
:48:12. > :48:15.let's freeze council tax because that's what people tell us they
:48:16. > :48:22.want" . The people now telling you they want arise? Absolutely. We had
:48:23. > :48:27.a discussion last year and the people said they wanted to see a
:48:28. > :48:31.freeze. Extra pressure has come on... You could have a referendum.
:48:32. > :48:35.We could but it introduces uncertainty. I don't want to be
:48:36. > :48:39.uncertain. I want to plan on the basis of what we can do. If the
:48:40. > :48:42.government had told us a year ago what the referendum threshold would
:48:43. > :48:46.be and it was different to what it currently is, we would have planned
:48:47. > :48:50.accordingly. It's this last`minute chopping and changing. Sheryll
:48:51. > :48:55.Murray doubts the fact that people want an increase in their council
:48:56. > :49:02.tax. Let's be clear that what Cornwall benefits from charging the
:49:03. > :49:08.taxpayer 1.9% is actually 0.97% because by increasing by more than
:49:09. > :49:13.1%, they've denied the reward grant that the government would give them.
:49:14. > :49:18.So that's the first thing. The second thing is, Alex has just said
:49:19. > :49:24.that if they had known about the threshold at triggered a referendum
:49:25. > :49:29.being reduced before they made their decision, they may well have put the
:49:30. > :49:36.council tax up by 1.49%. If they could but the council tax up by
:49:37. > :49:43.1.49% after they were told, why not do it now? The third thing... You
:49:44. > :49:47.are putting words into my mouth. We had elections in May, when there
:49:48. > :49:52.were all sorts of promises made by a lot of councillors in their
:49:53. > :49:57.manifesto. One was to repair potholes. A lot of people got
:49:58. > :50:02.elected on that front. Now we are finding ` and I'm finding in my
:50:03. > :50:06.postbag everyday ` people complaining about toilets closing,
:50:07. > :50:12.charities not having their rubbish collected, potholes in the road. Get
:50:13. > :50:20.a grip, Alex. Could you go for just under 1.5%? I'm not playing Eric
:50:21. > :50:24.Pickles and Brandon Lewis's game. The relationship is pretty crucial,
:50:25. > :50:28.isn't it? We're in a coalition government that Lycra don't forget
:50:29. > :50:34.that. When we went to see Brandon Lewis a couple of weeks ago, we set
:50:35. > :50:39.out the case for Cornwall about why going early made sense. He smiled
:50:40. > :50:42.and nodded and said, "we'll do what we do anyway". We need a better
:50:43. > :50:49.relationship between ministers and local councils. Whatever political
:50:50. > :50:55.group the ministers are, we've got to have a good relationship for the
:50:56. > :50:58.good of the people of, in our case, Cornwall. We've got to stop playing
:50:59. > :51:03.games and I wish the ministers would get a grip. Larry, when you were in
:51:04. > :51:07.government the capping regime still existed. Do you think that was
:51:08. > :51:12.better than the referendum system? There's a long, sorry history of
:51:13. > :51:15.central government of all kinds trying to micromanage local
:51:16. > :51:19.expenditure. I think it is basically wrong, which ever government is
:51:20. > :51:23.doing it. As Alex said, even in that long history, to have a decision as
:51:24. > :51:27.late as we have now and then impose a referendum which won't be taking
:51:28. > :51:34.place until we're in the next financial year is completely barmy.
:51:35. > :51:39.What about parish councils? There is a problem mortgages that if you put
:51:40. > :51:44.a squeeze on the and district level, towns and parishes feel they need to
:51:45. > :51:50.take more. The pressure is actually from central government. You don't
:51:51. > :51:56.disagree with that, do you? One of the things we need to see happen is,
:51:57. > :51:59.when a primary authority hands over responsibility for things like
:52:00. > :52:05.public conveniences, they also hand over things like car parks, so that
:52:06. > :52:08.its cost neutral. That way, we wouldn't see local town councils
:52:09. > :52:14.having to increase their precept and they would be able to go ahead and
:52:15. > :52:18.look after the hard`working people... I know you have local
:52:19. > :52:22.differences with Alex but the reality is you, like a lot of Tories
:52:23. > :52:28.and Lib Dems, think the government grossly underfunded rural
:52:29. > :52:34.authorities. Brandon Lewis said, " go away, this is nonsense". I'm
:52:35. > :52:39.sorry but Larry's party started that. But you're in government now.
:52:40. > :52:43.We need to season three balancing between the finances... Are you
:52:44. > :52:50.going to vote for the government settlement? It depends... I will go
:52:51. > :52:54.into the chamber and will certainly speak up for Cornwall. Nobody spoke
:52:55. > :52:58.for Cornwall and the rural authorities more than I did and we
:52:59. > :53:03.will present the position and see what is on the table. What is very
:53:04. > :53:11.difficult for me to say now, with this 1.97% increase in council tax,
:53:12. > :53:16.is that I can make the case. Behind all this is the fact that the local
:53:17. > :53:18.government has taken the bulk of the public expenditure cuts, quite
:53:19. > :53:23.disproportionately, and that is causing difficulty all over. We can
:53:24. > :53:27.argue between different authorities but that is the problem and that was
:53:28. > :53:29.the wrong priority by the government because most services people depend
:53:30. > :53:36.on are delivered by local authorities. We can't be underfunded
:53:37. > :53:42.compared to the average urban authority. I want Sheryll Murray and
:53:43. > :53:47.the other MPs for Cornwall to go in and argue for the ?42 million. We've
:53:48. > :53:53.been awarded ?420,000 extra this year, 1%. I want the other 99% if
:53:54. > :53:57.not this year, next year. That is the fairness of the people of
:53:58. > :54:00.Cornwall deserve. We want to be able to provide the best possible
:54:01. > :54:06.services. We know we have to make cuts ` every council has to ` but we
:54:07. > :54:10.need fairness. Let's not forget it as a reward grant. If you don't
:54:11. > :54:14.comply with what the government is saying, you don't get the rewards.
:54:15. > :54:16.We've got to leave it there. Alex, thank you for joining us.
:54:17. > :54:18.Many rural MPs, like Sheryll, were doubtless delighted when the
:54:19. > :54:22.Government announced it was tightening up the planning rules for
:54:23. > :54:24.solar farms. But this week one of her Conservative colleagues told the
:54:25. > :54:27.Planning Minister the guidelines were still absurd and heavily
:54:28. > :54:29.weighted in favour of developers. Janine Jansen reports.
:54:30. > :54:32.There's often strong local opposition to the visual impact of
:54:33. > :54:38.solar farms. This one was no exception. It's a 32`acre site near
:54:39. > :54:40.Avonwick in the South Hams. The developer claims its photovoltaic
:54:41. > :54:51.panels will create enough electricity to power up to 850
:54:52. > :55:00.homes. But the Campaign for Rural England thinks solar farms are
:55:01. > :55:04.ruining the look of the countryside. Solar farm, solar harm. This
:55:05. > :55:08.application north of Sidmouth, on an area of natural beauty, has just
:55:09. > :55:10.been turned down due to its large scale and unnatural appearance.
:55:11. > :55:17.Campaigners say beautiful parts of our countryside are being
:55:18. > :55:22.increasingly targeted. The demand has been such that the network has
:55:23. > :55:31.become saturated, presumably elsewhere, and the available spots
:55:32. > :55:34.for choosing network connectivity are now moving towards protected
:55:35. > :55:37.landscapes. If they haven't been already. This week at Westminster,
:55:38. > :55:40.one MP said the planning rules around solar farms need to be
:55:41. > :55:42.changed. But the Minister insisted that government guidelines are
:55:43. > :55:49.strong enough to protect the countryside from unsuitable
:55:50. > :55:54.developments. National planning policy framework is the framework of
:55:55. > :56:01.national planning policy and every planning decision, by every planning
:56:02. > :56:05.authority in the land, must abide by the policies in this framework. At
:56:06. > :56:09.his conservative colleague wasn't satisfied. Unfortunately, money
:56:10. > :56:16.talks and this has become big business. Many planning officers are
:56:17. > :56:21.nervous, as our local councillors, that if they reject this, the cost
:56:22. > :56:24.of appealing is such that there is a risk to local taxpayers that they
:56:25. > :56:27.will have to foot the bill. In the South Hams, they've approved seven
:56:28. > :56:29.solar farms and refused two. But out of those two refusals, one is
:56:30. > :56:39.appealing. Councillors insist they're not afraid of appeals ` but
:56:40. > :56:45.say some can be costly. It can take one day, it can take five days. So
:56:46. > :56:48.generally speaking, it varies between maybe ?20,000 and ?50,000
:56:49. > :56:52.for a public appeal. Ministers are promising to publish a new solar
:56:53. > :56:56.strategy in the next few months. It may be too little, too late for
:56:57. > :57:05.those who believe the South West is already nearing capacity.
:57:06. > :57:08.Larry, this is like wind farms ` something that causes a lot of
:57:09. > :57:10.strife within the coalition and the Conservative article stop what would