:00:33. > :00:37.Aternoon folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. As MPs head off for
:00:38. > :00:43.their Easter break, campaigning for the European elections in six weeks'
:00:44. > :00:46.time gets underway. In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate the
:00:47. > :00:48.issues at stake on May 22nd with senior party figures from the
:00:49. > :00:58.Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats, and UKIP. And as ever
:00:59. > :01:00.we'll be discussing the week ahead with our panel of top political
:01:01. > :01:08.In the south`west. The plans to commentators.
:01:09. > :01:12.In the south`west. The plans to create more jobs and boost wages.
:01:13. > :01:14.And the row about the cost of a new nuclear power station at Hinkley
:01:15. > :01:18.Point. newspapers which some claim are
:01:19. > :01:24.politically slanted and not impartial about informing people of
:01:25. > :01:27.local services. So all that to come between now and
:01:28. > :01:30.quarter to four and for the next thirty minutes or so we'll be
:01:31. > :01:33.debating the European elections Here in the studio we have Syed
:01:34. > :01:36.Kamall, leader of the Conservatives in the European Parliament, Richard
:01:37. > :01:39.Howitt, chair of the Labour group of MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader
:01:40. > :01:49.of the Lib Dems in Europe, and Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of
:01:50. > :01:52.communications. Welcome to you all. In a moment, all four will give us
:01:53. > :02:02.their opening pitch for the elections. A little earlier they
:02:03. > :02:04.drew lots to decide who'll go first. And that privilege goes to Syed
:02:05. > :02:10.Before that, though, here's a quick reminder of what all the fuss is
:02:11. > :02:14.about. The vote to choose members of the
:02:15. > :02:18.European Parliament takes place on Thursday the 22nd of May. The same
:02:19. > :02:21.day as local elections are held in England and Northern Ireland. The UK
:02:22. > :02:25.sends 73 England and Northern Ireland. The UK
:02:26. > :02:29.sends NTP is to Brussels. And the vote is a form of proportional
:02:30. > :02:36.representation. In total, there are 751 MEPs from the 28 member states.
:02:37. > :02:41.What do they do all day? The European Parliament's power has
:02:42. > :02:44.grown. A vet of the EU commissioners and they can amend, approve or
:02:45. > :02:51.reject nearly all EU legislation and the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have
:02:52. > :02:57.been responsible for include price caps on mobile phone chargers,
:02:58. > :03:03.banking regulation and cover food regulation two -- labelling.
:03:04. > :03:09.Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds. Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe
:03:10. > :03:13.needs to change. And our relationship with Europe needs to
:03:14. > :03:16.change. Only the Conservatives have a plan to deliver that change and of
:03:17. > :03:21.the British people and in-out referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems
:03:22. > :03:26.will not and UKIP simply cannot Only the Conservatives will offer
:03:27. > :03:31.the three yards, with Conservative MEPs working alongside a
:03:32. > :03:36.conservative Prime Minister. For, really is and above all a
:03:37. > :03:41.referendum. Sarah Ludford is next. Your choice is simple. If you think
:03:42. > :03:45.Britain is better off in Europe vote for the Liberal Democrats. The
:03:46. > :03:50.Lib Dems are the only party of Ian, fighting to keep Britain in Europe
:03:51. > :03:54.and in work. There is nothing patriotic about UKIP's desire to
:03:55. > :03:58.pull-out. That is playing Russian roulette with Britain's economy and
:03:59. > :04:02.jobs. The Conservatives are flirting with exit and Labour lacks the
:04:03. > :04:09.courage to speak up. Thought Liberal Democrat on May the 22nd to say in
:04:10. > :04:14.Europe for jobs and security. Sarah Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from
:04:15. > :04:19.Labour. The European elections are about who represents you. They are
:04:20. > :04:24.not a referendum on a referendum. Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs
:04:25. > :04:27.and growth first. A guarantee to help young people into work,
:04:28. > :04:31.reforming energy markets so that bills are brought down for good
:04:32. > :04:36.Labour believes in reform in Europe, but within. It is David Cameron who
:04:37. > :04:40.is risking your job and Britain s prosperity because of divisions in
:04:41. > :04:45.his own party. Labour MEPs put British interests first. Our fourth
:04:46. > :04:53.opening statement from Patrick O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a
:04:54. > :04:56.declining regional trade bloc in an era of global trade. It is a
:04:57. > :05:01.20th-century political project designed to prevent conflict in
:05:02. > :05:05.Europe that is now reawakening old hostilities. It is an attempt to
:05:06. > :05:13.force on the European people European this as their primary
:05:14. > :05:16.collective identity. It has hollowed out British democracy and now we do
:05:17. > :05:22.not even control our own borders. That is why you should vote UKIP.
:05:23. > :05:25.That is the opening statements. Let's get on with the debate. Why
:05:26. > :05:32.should people vote in the selections? If you vote UKIP, we can
:05:33. > :05:35.deliver an earthquake that will rock the foundations of British politics
:05:36. > :05:41.and the European political class. We can send a signal to Europe that
:05:42. > :05:46.Britain has had enough, that Britain wants to retain its nation state
:05:47. > :05:50.status and regain political power and the ability to forge trading
:05:51. > :05:57.deals across the world. Britain leading Europe to freedom twice in
:05:58. > :06:00.the last century through bloodshed. We feel that a UKIP win in those
:06:01. > :06:07.elections could help Britain set an example to lead European nation
:06:08. > :06:11.states back to free assembly again. Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that
:06:12. > :06:16.many Tory voters will vote you clip to keep you honest, to keep your
:06:17. > :06:19.feet to the fire? Whatever you think of the European Parliament or the
:06:20. > :06:24.EU, the fact is that the European Parliament as equal power with the
:06:25. > :06:30.28 governments of the EU. When David Cameron delivered the first cut to
:06:31. > :06:33.the EU budget, the first ever cut, he needed a strong team of
:06:34. > :06:40.Conservative MEPs working alongside him. But many of your supporters
:06:41. > :06:49.will vote for UKIP for the reasons I gave. Many will vote Liberal
:06:50. > :06:51.Democrat. Not very many. Many of our supporters will vote for us because
:06:52. > :06:55.we are the only party trying to change the EU and offer reform. We
:06:56. > :07:01.have offered renegotiation and a referendum. And how would you vote
:07:02. > :07:06.in such a referendum? We have no idea whether he would vote yes or
:07:07. > :07:12.no. Let him answer. I will answer that question. If the EU continues
:07:13. > :07:15.on this road, towards a United States of Europe, and if there was
:07:16. > :07:21.no change at the time of the referendum, then I would probably
:07:22. > :07:24.vote to leave. You have no confidence in David Cameron? We
:07:25. > :07:26.Javier Culson opportunity to read negotiate our relationship with
:07:27. > :07:30.Europe and the Conservatives are at the forefront of that agenda. David
:07:31. > :07:38.Cameron have not given a list of demands. He said that if things do
:07:39. > :07:44.not change, he will probably vote to leave, is that right? If at the time
:07:45. > :07:47.of the referendum, things had not changed, I would vote to leave and
:07:48. > :07:54.we have a golden opportunity to perform the agenda. Richard, the
:07:55. > :08:02.last time the British people had a say on this was over 40 years ago.
:08:03. > :08:07.Under a Labour government. Which was deeply divided on the issue. And
:08:08. > :08:13.that was a say on the common market. Today's EU is a very different
:08:14. > :08:18.animal from the common market. Why can we not, under another Labour
:08:19. > :08:24.government, have another vote? First of all, we want it to be more than a
:08:25. > :08:28.free trading area. We make no apologies about that. But in the
:08:29. > :08:32.elections because this is half of Britain's exports and investment. If
:08:33. > :08:35.you care about your job and business, you cannot hear from the
:08:36. > :08:39.party of government that they probably want you to leave because
:08:40. > :08:43.the CBI, the engineering employees in Federation and the chimp of
:08:44. > :08:49.commerce, 80% of them say it is necessary to stay in. So why not
:08:50. > :08:52.give us a vote? When David Cameron says he wants to repatriate social
:08:53. > :08:58.powers, he means takeaway maternity rights and holidays. If the case is
:08:59. > :09:05.so strong, why not give us an in-out vote? David Miliband has said that
:09:06. > :09:10.there will be a referendum if there was a proposal to change powers Why
:09:11. > :09:14.wait? This is based on a series of reforms. Labour has a set of
:09:15. > :09:17.reforms. David Cameron is silent about what they would be. That is
:09:18. > :09:21.because he knows that if he put them forward, they would either be
:09:22. > :09:25.unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic backbenchers and he would be out of
:09:26. > :09:32.a job, or they would be unacceptable to European leaders. Why is your
:09:33. > :09:36.leader missing in action? Ed Miliband is unable to say even the
:09:37. > :09:43.positive things that you are saying. He has run away from the argument.
:09:44. > :09:47.He actually said there would not be a referendum in his time.
:09:48. > :09:55.For a conservative to say they will have a referendum but not give the
:09:56. > :10:01.reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity
:10:02. > :10:04.in that debate. He said that the Eurosceptic view was to leave
:10:05. > :10:11.Britain like Billy no mates. I can say that he is the best qualified
:10:12. > :10:15.person to say that. Sarah Ludford, you have said that lots of people
:10:16. > :10:18.are going to vote Lib Dem but that is not what the polls are saying.
:10:19. > :10:22.You are 7% in two polls this morning. Eclectic's decision to
:10:23. > :10:27.champion Europe has been a disaster for you. You face wet out. We swayed
:10:28. > :10:33.a lot of people our way with Nick Clegg's debate. Where is the
:10:34. > :10:39.evidence? We are the only party that is completely united, saying that we
:10:40. > :10:41.are wanting to stay in. It is essential because formally and jobs
:10:42. > :10:47.are supported by our trade with the EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding
:10:48. > :10:51.a lot of moderate conservative voters are actually fed up with the
:10:52. > :11:00.Tories being split and divided all over the place. Syed Kamall saying
:11:01. > :11:04.that we might vote in rout. -- in or out. We are consistent. A poll in
:11:05. > :11:09.London showed that 18% would vote for us. I am delighted about that.
:11:10. > :11:14.London is not the whole country it may surprise you. We need to move on
:11:15. > :11:18.to immigration, an important issue. We are a member of the EU and the
:11:19. > :11:23.rules say that with a few caveats, our fellow EU citizens are free to
:11:24. > :11:29.come here if they want. Why can we not just accept that? Britain has a
:11:30. > :11:32.proud record when it comes to immigration. We have been open to
:11:33. > :11:36.people across the world for centuries. But we welcome people who
:11:37. > :11:40.come to our country to contribute to pay taxes and two wards are a
:11:41. > :11:44.society positively. But there are three real concerns that we have to
:11:45. > :11:48.address. The first one is numbers, and secondly people who may come
:11:49. > :11:53.here not to work but for benefits, and thirdly, getting a hang of the
:11:54. > :11:57.numbers. I think it is shameful that only this week the office for
:11:58. > :12:01.National said that they did not collect sufficient figures under a
:12:02. > :12:06.Labour government. 350,000 extra people came in and they did not
:12:07. > :12:12.count the numbers. That is the size of a city like Cardiff. That is
:12:13. > :12:17.shameful. 350,000 came from all over the place. Do you accept the free
:12:18. > :12:21.movement of peoples within the EU? I accept and am open to people who
:12:22. > :12:26.want to come here and contribute. In the same way... Do you accept the
:12:27. > :12:33.free movement of peoples within the EU? In our manifesto, we have said
:12:34. > :12:36.it is an issue for reform. We have to make sure that people are coming
:12:37. > :12:44.here to work and contribute positively, not simply to come here
:12:45. > :12:47.and take advantage of the system. I will tell you what else is
:12:48. > :12:50.shameful. What is shameful is David Cameron making a pledge to the
:12:51. > :12:54.British people on an issue that they really care about, to bring net
:12:55. > :12:59.immigration down to the tens of thousands a year, having no means of
:13:00. > :13:03.fulfilling that pledge. And we see now it is back up to 212,000 a year
:13:04. > :13:08.because we have no volume control and no quality control from
:13:09. > :13:12.immigration from our neighbours And that is a disgrace. How could UKIP
:13:13. > :13:17.address that issue? Because we would leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You
:13:18. > :13:21.do not have a single member of Parliament. He will not get a single
:13:22. > :13:31.member of Parliament. How are you... ? TUC are hoping to get an
:13:32. > :13:41.MEP. What do you say? -- he is here today hoping to get an MEP. All of
:13:42. > :13:48.-- almost 2 million Brits live and work in the rest of the EU. Is that
:13:49. > :13:55.worth having? The majority are wealthy, retired people. Why do not
:13:56. > :13:57.object to bilateral agreements with countries with similar living
:13:58. > :14:01.standards to us. France, the Netherlands, that works fine. But
:14:02. > :14:05.these three people want Turkey to join the EU, 75 Na Li and people
:14:06. > :14:18.running our country, only 10% of which... Syed Kamall is Michael year
:14:19. > :14:21.to say whether they are in favour of free movement for work, not for
:14:22. > :14:30.benefits... That is what I'm saying. You said you were unable to
:14:31. > :14:33.be clear. That leaves 2 million British people absolutely unsure as
:14:34. > :14:36.to whether they would have a right to continue to live in other
:14:37. > :14:41.countries. It is a two-way street. You are putting those people in a
:14:42. > :14:43.state of uncertainty. EU migrants have been good for the British
:14:44. > :14:47.economy and contribute far more than they take out in services and
:14:48. > :14:54.benefits. One in seven businesses were founded in -- by migrants. And
:14:55. > :15:01.they cannot just turn up and claim benefits. The coalition government
:15:02. > :15:05.has legislated to make sure that they cannot claim for three months.
:15:06. > :15:13.They will not be able to claim for more than six months. Richard
:15:14. > :15:20.Howitt, Jack Straw said it was A spectacular mistake for Labour to
:15:21. > :15:25.allow EU migrants from Poland and Hungary to work in the UK from
:15:26. > :15:29.2004." Why should we trust a party that makes spectacular mistakes and
:15:30. > :15:34.hasn't apologised for it? We accept it is a mistake and I apologise We
:15:35. > :15:38.make a firm commitment for new EU states we will put down transitional
:15:39. > :15:41.controls. When I listen to the Conservatives and UKIP trying to
:15:42. > :15:45.re-write history, saying immigration was out of control, uncontrolled,
:15:46. > :15:51.open door, we hear it over and over again. It is not true. Anyone who
:15:52. > :15:57.was around at the time... Come on, Richard. Hold on, you undercounted
:15:58. > :16:02.by 350,000. You were letting 2 million in over the years, an
:16:03. > :16:09.under-counted by 350,000 people you didn't know came in. You should have
:16:10. > :16:15.tightened the benefit rules. The Conservative MEP today has, in four
:16:16. > :16:19.years in government in Britain, is trying it blame the previous Labour
:16:20. > :16:24.Government over the fact they won't count people in or people out.
:16:25. > :16:31.Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for people to come to the country and
:16:32. > :16:36.benefits are changing, changing the habitual residence test and we are
:16:37. > :16:40.going to say that migrants can't come and claim child benefit if
:16:41. > :16:43.their children are outside the country. Labour a has shown they
:16:44. > :16:48.have listened to concerns but we say it is a stronger, better, country
:16:49. > :16:51.because it is diverse and multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy
:16:52. > :16:56.politics from all the Peters. They are committed to a system with no
:16:57. > :17:00.volume control and no quality control. You talk about benefits as
:17:01. > :17:05.if it is only out of work benefits. In work benefits cost a lot of money
:17:06. > :17:13.for the British taxpayer. Big businesses bring in minimum wage
:17:14. > :17:18.workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool place What are you going to do? Have
:17:19. > :17:24.all the pensioners come back to Britain? How will will you fund the
:17:25. > :17:28.health care? Do you really think Spain and pour tu ghal their current
:17:29. > :17:34.situation, are going to turn their backs on British property owners
:17:35. > :17:40.with wealth? -- Portugal. They might not wanting pensioners to use their
:17:41. > :17:45.health service. Pensioners often come back to Britain to use the
:17:46. > :17:48.health service. You have shown it represents wealthy people's
:17:49. > :17:54.interests. A second Conservative Party. Hang on a minute... Blue
:17:55. > :17:58.collar wages were down. They want it character for the National Health
:17:59. > :18:02.Service, have cuts that go farther and comprehensive education. This is
:18:03. > :18:05.a debate on the wider politics between Conservatives and UKIP and
:18:06. > :18:10.Labour will... You can't both talk time. UKIP - they haven't thought it
:18:11. > :18:14.through, thousand they will have trade access in the EU, hasn't
:18:15. > :18:17.thought how they will have trade deals that the Liberal Democrats
:18:18. > :18:22.support, like with the United States: Would you have a cap on
:18:23. > :18:26.non-EU immigrants? We are not in favour of a cap. No cap on either.
:18:27. > :18:32.No. Well it is a target. It is a moving feast, as it were. Would you
:18:33. > :18:35.have a limit on non-EU limits? We have limits on quality. We have
:18:36. > :18:40.people who are skilled migrants coming in. Lip its? . By quality,
:18:41. > :18:47.not by quantity. -- Limits. How do you do that? We need to move
:18:48. > :18:51.on to foreign affairs. Should we pool more sovereignty to
:18:52. > :18:56.give the European Union more clout in foreign and defence matters? I'm
:18:57. > :19:01.Labour's defence and foreign affairs spokesperson. No we don't need to
:19:02. > :19:05.pull more powers into Europe. As we undertake this live debate there are
:19:06. > :19:10.guns being fired in Ukraine as we speak. Europe is facing, for the
:19:11. > :19:14.first time, since the end of the Second World War, Armies crossing
:19:15. > :19:18.national borders and floatening peace. Doesn't it -- threatening
:19:19. > :19:23.peace. Doesn't it need to come together of the We don't need more
:19:24. > :19:30.powers. We need political will. With Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has
:19:31. > :19:34.-- we have fallen short in the sanctions. But it is Europe, not
:19:35. > :19:39.Britain. Remember Putin calling Britain little England a small
:19:40. > :19:43.island with no influence. Labour doesn't agree with that. But if
:19:44. > :19:46.that's the mindset that allows someone like Vladimir Putin to send
:19:47. > :19:50.troops across borders threatening peace, it is worrying. And when we
:19:51. > :19:54.have, in UKIP a party that say they admire Putin and support his
:19:55. > :19:59.policies, that is no recipe for how Europe should be wrong. I was
:20:00. > :20:07.waiting for that. Let me ask him. We don't admire Putin as a leader. .
:20:08. > :20:11.Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage said, was he admired him as a
:20:12. > :20:15.political operator. Testifies Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good
:20:16. > :20:21.foreign policy was speaking softly but carrying a big stick. The EU
:20:22. > :20:25.shouts its mouthed off while carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy
:20:26. > :20:29.that you wiebl it stand up to Putin over the Ukraine. -- that you would
:20:30. > :20:34.be able to stand up. Do you admire what Putin is doing in the Ukraine?
:20:35. > :20:39.No. What matters in foreign policy is the outcould. We have a terrible
:20:40. > :20:44.outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria, and Georgia... What would UKIP do?
:20:45. > :20:49.What u skip would do, would be to keep our people safe -- UKIP.
:20:50. > :20:56.How? And not commit our Foreign Office and troops Foreign wars.
:20:57. > :21:00.Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel
:21:01. > :21:05.Farage said in previous debates that Britain should leave the EU because,
:21:06. > :21:11."We have had enough of endless foreign wars." Which wars has the EU
:21:12. > :21:14.taken us into? The EU has ban very important factor in the push towards
:21:15. > :21:24.trying to get military intervention in Syria, for example. What wars has
:21:25. > :21:29.the etch U taken us into it -- EU. Fortunately the EU doesn't have its
:21:30. > :21:36.own army yet. It has wanted to sign up to an expansionist agenda. Did it
:21:37. > :21:41.want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP opposed Iraq, so did most of the
:21:42. > :21:47.mainline Europeans. Germany was against Syria and Libya. No EU
:21:48. > :21:52.policy. We had an Anglo French deal on Syria. A by lateral deal. A
:21:53. > :21:58.European dimension. No, buy lateral. We have a European Union that wants
:21:59. > :22:02.to expand ever-more into other people's spheres of influence. If we
:22:03. > :22:08.are going to stand up to what Putin is do, which obviously Nigel Farage
:22:09. > :22:11.has no intentions of doing, you have to get your act together on economic
:22:12. > :22:16.sanctions and diplomatic force and in trade matters, in supporting
:22:17. > :22:22.eastern European countries. Sayeria, who and whose army? And NATO and
:22:23. > :22:26.working transatlanticically, is important through NATO. I will come
:22:27. > :22:33.to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said that the idea of an EU Army was "A
:22:34. > :22:38.dangerous fantasy that is simply not true ""Why then, are we already
:22:39. > :22:41.working on etch U-owned and controlled drones -- EU-owned and
:22:42. > :22:48.the President of the European Parliament has said that the
:22:49. > :22:51.majority of MEPs want the EU to have "deployable troops." He is not
:22:52. > :22:55.speaking for me or Liberal Democrats. The EU does not and will
:22:56. > :22:59.not have an army. Our defence is mainly shaped through NATO. He is
:23:00. > :23:03.President of the Parliament What we must do is to get equipment which
:23:04. > :23:07.can operate together. We waste an awful lot of our spending in Europe
:23:08. > :23:12.because we duplicate equipment. We don't get the bang for our bucks
:23:13. > :23:16.that we should. It is a useful role for the EU, to get equipment working
:23:17. > :23:22.together. That doesn't make sense. You say military equipment, a NATO
:23:23. > :23:27.job. No, the EU, there is a kind of dimension of the EU members of NATO,
:23:28. > :23:32.in working together on a common quument o o so they can talk to each
:23:33. > :23:37.other -- on common equipment, so they can talk to each other. The EU
:23:38. > :23:40.has a role but not an army. So a European defence agency, that helps
:23:41. > :23:43.our defence industries and those jobs are extremely important and
:23:44. > :23:49.would be threatened if the Conservatives and UKIP took us out
:23:50. > :23:53.of Europe but it is 100 years since the start of the fist world war
:23:54. > :23:57.Remember that Europe was set up to try to get a secure peace within
:23:58. > :24:01.Europe T succeeded. Now look on Ukraine but also on the southern
:24:02. > :24:06.borders to the Arab Spring countries in North Africa. It is more
:24:07. > :24:10.important than ever that we work to keep keep peace and stability on our
:24:11. > :24:14.borders. Can I say to Syed and the Conservative MEPs. You talk about
:24:15. > :24:18.the three Rs, I have a fourth, retreat. If you take us out of the
:24:19. > :24:25.European Union, it will be the worse retreat by Britain since Gallipoli.
:24:26. > :24:28.Let him answer If he wants answers -- the British Parliament is the
:24:29. > :24:33.right place with a British Foreign Secretary to decide our foreign
:24:34. > :24:38.policy. You say that, but can I quote David Cameron, this is germain
:24:39. > :24:43.to what you are saying, David Cameron said "There is no doubt that
:24:44. > :24:47.we are more powerful than Washington, Beijing and Delhi,
:24:48. > :24:50.because we are a powerful player in the European Union." Do you agree?
:24:51. > :24:53.He is saying that there are times when it comes to international
:24:54. > :24:57.foreign affairs when you have to cooperate with partners. Often they
:24:58. > :25:02.are EU partners but often they are not. The problem we have...
:25:03. > :25:08.Washington have made it very clear that it wants Britain to talk
:25:09. > :25:13.through Brussels. No, not at all. Talk through the French and
:25:14. > :25:18.Italians, come on, wake up? Through the EU collective. I'm vice chair of
:25:19. > :25:21.the EU delegation. I hear it from the American counterparts. They want
:25:22. > :25:27.the EU to get itself together and not least on Ukraine. Why should our
:25:28. > :25:30.sovereignty be at the behest of .. ? I want to hear from Syed calm
:25:31. > :25:33.amplgts the British Parliament is the right place to decide our
:25:34. > :25:38.foreign poll sinchts sometimes we work with our European partners
:25:39. > :25:41.sometimes we work with our non-European partners. It is our
:25:42. > :25:48.choice to pull sovereign trito work together. G, we move on to our foirt
:25:49. > :25:55.area. We hear a lot in this country about MPs expenses. Snted the real
:25:56. > :26:01.scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't the real scandal, the MEPs gravy
:26:02. > :26:07.train? You all have your snouts The trough? I don't think so. There is
:26:08. > :26:11.transpancy. The way we use our expenses is online and anyone can
:26:12. > :26:17.ask to examine those. We have actually voted to reform MEPs'
:26:18. > :26:20.allowances. We regularly vote but unfortunately the majority in
:26:21. > :26:27.Parliament don't. Have you voted to cut them? Yes. By how much? About
:26:28. > :26:31.5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies I never fly except across the
:26:32. > :26:39.Atlantic. Difficult to do it any other way. I didn't swim.
:26:40. > :26:44.But we voted for economy flutes We voted for European Parliament policy
:26:45. > :26:48.of transparency which other groups haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote.
:26:49. > :26:53.They don't earn their salaries. Dhoent do anything. They should hand
:26:54. > :26:57.their salaries and allowances back. You can't ause UKIP of being on the
:26:58. > :27:03.gravy train and the other that we don't claim our attendance allowance
:27:04. > :27:07.because our MEPs are not there. Your attendance allowance is if you are
:27:08. > :27:11.there, you are saying we don't turn up You are in the building and claim
:27:12. > :27:14.the allowances. You are not an MEP, UKIP are so ashamed of what their
:27:15. > :27:20.MEPs have done in Brussels, they didn't field a sitting MEP for
:27:21. > :27:24.today's debate. I think each party decides who it wishes to field. I
:27:25. > :27:29.have the honour of being the UKIP representative. I would say by going
:27:30. > :27:37.in the past few weeks, xeeming to me saying - we are sick of the others.
:27:38. > :27:42.-- people saying to me. : We are quite excited. Can I ask Patrick
:27:43. > :27:47.O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord and his party is strong in the polls
:27:48. > :27:52.today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't you also struck a chord with hip
:27:53. > :27:57.crasscy. Two of your MEPs were jailed for expenses and benefits'
:27:58. > :28:01.fraud. Two more asked to pay back ?37,000 for using European funds.
:28:02. > :28:06.Nigel Farage has boosted about getting ?2 million in expenses and
:28:07. > :28:09.he went on to employ his wife as a secretarial allowance after telling
:28:10. > :28:16.other members not to People who do wrong and break the law, go to ja. I
:28:17. > :28:19.have no time. -- go to jail. People who spend money they are not
:28:20. > :28:24.entitled to should pay it back and that's right. But what UKIP does and
:28:25. > :28:28.the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the allowances they are given to pursue
:28:29. > :28:31.the political agenda they put up when elected which is to get Britain
:28:32. > :28:38.out of this superstate. Instead of using it for parliamentary work
:28:39. > :28:42.Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We were the first British political
:28:43. > :28:48.party to have independent audits of our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way
:28:49. > :28:52.before the expenses crisis blew up. The Maria Miller scandal has of
:28:53. > :28:56.course hit David Cameron and the Conservative Party hard as it should
:28:57. > :29:00.do. But you are right, even in my own region you have UKIP candidates
:29:01. > :29:04.and councillors who have been charged with fraudulently filling
:29:05. > :29:09.out election papers and other shot lifting. Another independent inquiry
:29:10. > :29:13.found he made racist comments. We had a European candidate last week
:29:14. > :29:18.in Hertfordshire who got a parking ticket from the police and called
:29:19. > :29:24.the police fascists. These people aren't here.
:29:25. > :29:28.I'll let you have a quick reply We can bring up parochial cases. Let
:29:29. > :29:32.him answer. Not so long ago a Liberal Democrat councillor was sent
:29:33. > :29:37.down for firebombing, I don't say they are a bunch of arsonists, but
:29:38. > :29:44.now I think, Nick Clegg might have burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad
:29:45. > :29:49.you pronounced that word carefully. Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they
:29:50. > :29:55.are strongly critical of the EU s financials saying "Errors permist in
:29:56. > :30:01.all main spending areas", the financials are poorly managed. It is
:30:02. > :30:07.a shambles And that's something that all parties agree on. As we agree on
:30:08. > :30:10.expenses, the British parties are at the forefront of transpancy. Every
:30:11. > :30:14.year when we vote for the discharge of the budget, the Conservatives
:30:15. > :30:17.also vote for it but we don't get enough MEPs from other countries to
:30:18. > :30:20.investigate in favour. The Liberal Democrats have put forward to make
:30:21. > :30:26.each Finance Minister, George Osborne and his counterpart to sign
:30:27. > :30:30.a declaration to say all EU money is properly spent in my country.
:30:31. > :30:34.Funnily enough they don't want to do that but I look forward to you
:30:35. > :30:40.confirming that George Osborne will sign it. All the time we hear it is
:30:41. > :30:45.about the money we pay in, about ?150 per family per year. What about
:30:46. > :30:50.the money that comes back? ?1. billion that comes to Britain's
:30:51. > :30:54.regions because of being in Europe. I myself helped to negotiate a fund
:30:55. > :30:58.to help Britain's food banks to ensure so. Poorest and most
:30:59. > :31:02.destitute people... Isn't it our money that went there first. Can I
:31:03. > :31:05.tell you the Conservative-led Government have blocked us from
:31:06. > :31:08.claiming that money. If you want to have the clearest choice at these
:31:09. > :31:19.European elections, it is between... Tell us why. It affects our rebate.
:31:20. > :31:26.Tony Blair gave away our rebate He is quite right. Lib Dems fought to
:31:27. > :31:30.make sure that we apply for money to help with flooding. That is what the
:31:31. > :31:34.Tories were blocking. If you want the clearest example at the European
:31:35. > :31:39.elections, the Conservative Party and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers
:31:40. > :31:45.bonuses, and then blocked a Labour victory to get money for free
:31:46. > :31:52.banks. We need to move on to the future. It is important and people
:31:53. > :31:55.are watching. The EU's Justice Minister says that we need to build
:31:56. > :32:02.a United States of Europe with the commission as its government. Is she
:32:03. > :32:08.right? Not at all. But the future, if we take the next ten years,
:32:09. > :32:11.thinks about climate change and the fact that we are not going to hit of
:32:12. > :32:16.the two degrees target. Europe has led and needs to lead towards
:32:17. > :32:20.getting a new sustainable world. It is the political will to use these
:32:21. > :32:24.powers, so she is wrong. It is about the threats from abroad. Labour
:32:25. > :32:28.reforms like getting a commissioner for growth and rebalancing the
:32:29. > :32:32.budget, reforming the common agricultural policy, all of those
:32:33. > :32:39.things will need to happen to make Europe more democratic and open. But
:32:40. > :32:44.against the rise of Brazil and China... We do not need more
:32:45. > :32:49.treaties and powers. We need more action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah
:32:50. > :32:54.Ludford, you would sign up to that? No. Unless they do not think that
:32:55. > :33:00.should concentrate on institutional matters. What we need to do is
:33:01. > :33:04.concentrate on making Europe progrowth and competitive and create
:33:05. > :33:10.more jobs in a competitive world. We need more trade deals to open up our
:33:11. > :33:15.exports, we need to streamline the EU. We need less red tape and
:33:16. > :33:19.Liberal Democrats have done a lot on that. We need better scrutiny of EU
:33:20. > :33:27.legislation at West Munster because the national parties... More powers
:33:28. > :33:36.or less for the EU government? In some areas, I would like to see it
:33:37. > :33:39.slimmed down. Including, I am not sure whether the EU should be
:33:40. > :33:45.funding food banks. I think that is a national responsibility. Dearie
:33:46. > :33:50.me. The EU have to concentrate on the economy and climate change. This
:33:51. > :33:54.is the coalition talking. If we want to fritter away political capital on
:33:55. > :33:58.things which are interfering in national matters, then we do not
:33:59. > :34:03.have the support to tackle those big challenges. Would you still want to
:34:04. > :34:12.join the Euro one-day? Now is not a good idea. We wanted the Eurozone to
:34:13. > :34:16.still be sound, which is why... Did not ask you that. Do you want to
:34:17. > :34:20.join the Euro one-day? If it is a success and it did the economy. Now
:34:21. > :34:28.is not the time but in principle, the idea of a single currency has
:34:29. > :34:32.advantages. That was a yes. We are not ruling it out for ever but not
:34:33. > :34:37.in the foreseeable future. It is not on the horizon. What would our
:34:38. > :34:42.relationship be with Europe in the future if UKIP got its way and we
:34:43. > :34:46.left? We would be trading partners with Europe and we would seek
:34:47. > :34:51.partnership in specific serious. I'd tell you what, can I just say...
:34:52. > :34:54.Would we be Norway? We would be stronger than Norway because we are
:34:55. > :34:59.the biggest export market in the Eurozone. We can negotiate a bespoke
:35:00. > :35:03.trading agreement reflecting our enormous importance. Not on
:35:04. > :35:09.services, which make up 80% of the economy. We are the biggest export
:35:10. > :35:13.market in the Eurozone. Our biggest exports are services and they would
:35:14. > :35:18.have to agree to free trade and services. They still have not. Can I
:35:19. > :35:23.read you something? Let me read you something. There would be a free
:35:24. > :35:28.trade agreement in place the day after our exit. Germany would demand
:35:29. > :35:34.no less. Who said that? Not somebody from UKIP, but Digby Jones. Mr
:35:35. > :35:38.business. He is talking about goods, not services. Norway has that
:35:39. > :35:43.and they have no say. You would have to accept the EU rules without any
:35:44. > :35:48.say. No MEPs are commissioners. Let me give you another. Enough. One is
:35:49. > :35:55.enough. Syed Kamall, is it not looking forward pretty much Mission:
:35:56. > :36:02.Impossible for Mr Cameron to get anything like the repatriations of
:36:03. > :36:09.powers that would satisfy your irreconcilables? My father was a bus
:36:10. > :36:12.driver in the 50s and one of the reasons I am here today is because
:36:13. > :36:15.he told me that you can achieve anything if you work hard. He said
:36:16. > :36:19.to me, do not listen to the doubters. When people tell you that
:36:20. > :36:23.something cannot be done, it is a sign of their limitations, not
:36:24. > :36:26.yours. They said that we could not pull Britain out of the bailout
:36:27. > :36:31.mechanism but we did it. He said we could not be to a -- veto European
:36:32. > :36:37.treaty and we did that. They said we would never cut the budget and we
:36:38. > :36:41.did that. The first ever. But overall, we are paying more into the
:36:42. > :36:46.European budget. And they are not sticking to it. More, not less. They
:36:47. > :36:49.say that we cannot achieve reform but we have achieved reform and we
:36:50. > :36:54.are at the forefront of that. Science's father came to Britain
:36:55. > :37:05.because Britain was open and looking outward. What the Conservatives now
:37:06. > :37:11.have, with leaderless Cameron, is an inward looking attitude. They are
:37:12. > :37:16.allowing the rise of UKIP. They are putting so much at risk. People
:37:17. > :37:20.should vote Labour. We are going to have to stop now. No point talking
:37:21. > :37:26.because we are about to finish. I think you all for a spirited debate.
:37:27. > :37:29.I'm sure Nigel Fries and Mr Clegg will have learned a lot about how to
:37:30. > :37:32.debate. -- Nigel Farage. It's just gone 3pm, and you're
:37:33. > :37:35.watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who
:37:36. > :37:36.leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in twenty
:37:37. > :37:47.minutes, Scotland. Coming up here in twenty
:37:48. > :37:54.Hello, I'm Lucie Fisher. Coling up on the Sunday Politics in the
:37:55. > :37:57.south`west. The row about the cost of a new
:37:58. > :38:03.nuclear power station at Hinkley Point.
:38:04. > :38:06.And for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by the Labour peer Ann
:38:07. > :38:08.Mallalieu, and the Lib Dem LP Adrian Sanders. Welcome both of yot to the
:38:09. > :38:13.programme. Let's start with the state of the
:38:14. > :38:16.roads. This week it was revdaled the region's councils are shellhng out
:38:17. > :38:20.nearly ?1 million a year in compensation to people injured
:38:21. > :38:23.because of potholes. A BBC freedom of information request showdd that
:38:24. > :38:36.Torbay had had to pay out ?400, 00 in the last four years. Adrhen, that
:38:37. > :38:42.is unsustainable, isn't it? There is no real answer to this. Shotld it
:38:43. > :38:47.have been 800,000, 100,000, it reflects injuries that people
:38:48. > :38:50.suffered who, quite rightly, sued for compensation. Can counchls do
:38:51. > :38:55.more to reduce their chances of being taken to court? Yes, they can,
:38:56. > :39:02.if they have the resources. If they have the money. They have an amount
:39:03. > :39:05.of money available for this, but it doesn't go anywhere near covering
:39:06. > :39:10.the cost of filling on all the holes. The local government
:39:11. > :39:14.authority says the 200 millhon offered is a drop in the ocdan
:39:15. > :39:20.compared with costs which they say are ?10 billion. That is thdir
:39:21. > :39:24.answer. And I do think we whll see a proper answer to this until we have
:39:25. > :39:29.better times and there is more money available. What do you think, Ann
:39:30. > :39:33.Mallalieu? Should more be done about this? In an ideal world but I agree
:39:34. > :39:39.there is in the money to do it as one would like. What does strprise
:39:40. > :39:42.me is the degree all lack of prioritisation. I can understand if
:39:43. > :39:49.there is a problem, they should go down and deal with that immddiately,
:39:50. > :39:55.but a number of our roads and motorways, used by hundreds of
:39:56. > :40:00.thousands of people are disgraceful. They should be put right at the
:40:01. > :40:02.earliest possible opportunity. Well, stay with us because we havd plenty
:40:03. > :40:05.more to discuss. Labour announced this week ht would
:40:06. > :40:08.bring back a minister for the south`west as part of plans to
:40:09. > :40:12.devolve more power to the rdgions plans. Ed Miliband is promising more
:40:13. > :40:14.jobs and better wages. But one of the region's business leaders is
:40:15. > :40:17.warning the Labour plan could mean Bristol gets the lion's share of
:40:18. > :40:24.future investment. Tamsin Mdlville reports.
:40:25. > :40:27.Being a peninsula has always been a challenge when it comes to
:40:28. > :40:32.attracting investment. But this winter's weather made the south`west
:40:33. > :40:35.feel especially vulnerable. The recent floods and storms just show
:40:36. > :40:39.how interconnected we are as a peninsula and how we must work
:40:40. > :40:43.together better. And the big investments that we have sedn in the
:40:44. > :40:46.recent years, like the Wave Hub or Eden, or the Combined Universities
:40:47. > :40:51.in Cornwall, none of those would ever get started now under the local
:40:52. > :40:54.enterprise partnership regile. One of the first things the coalition
:40:55. > :40:56.did was scrap the big regional development agencies and replace
:40:57. > :41:02.them with 39 local enterprise partnerships to be the drivdrs for
:41:03. > :41:09.economic growth. Nigel Costley thinks the focus is now too narrow.
:41:10. > :41:12.They need to work together. And pack much more of a punch in Whitehall,
:41:13. > :41:18.and they need to involve more people. This month, LEPs unveiled
:41:19. > :41:23.plans for a share of a ?2 bhllion pot of government money to help grow
:41:24. > :41:25.economies. Cornwall's local enterprise partnership wants to
:41:26. > :41:27.build on the county's natur`l assets like this to create jobs, ilprove
:41:28. > :41:34.infrastructure, and encourage housing. Joe says he is one of the
:41:35. > :41:39.lucky ones. Happy in one of around 15 jobs created at this news cycle
:41:40. > :41:42.trail at Lanhydrock. There's a lot of people out there looking for
:41:43. > :41:44.them, but there's not that luch opportunity, whether it's someone
:41:45. > :41:48.like myself, who isn't really that educated, or whether it is someone
:41:49. > :41:54.who's got a degree or whatever it is. Whatever category you w`nt to
:41:55. > :42:04.put it in, there's not a lot out there. The LEP wants to cre`te
:42:05. > :42:07.thousands more jobs. One pl`n is to link with other bike trails and make
:42:08. > :42:10.nearby Bodmin Cornwall's cycling town. But it's not all about bikes.
:42:11. > :42:13.There's also hopes for improving the A30 and key roads around major
:42:14. > :42:19.towns. And investing in rail and bus project. Those involved inshst their
:42:20. > :42:23.strategy is right. It's abott looking at working with the private
:42:24. > :42:26.sector for higher value jobs. Because absolutely our prim`ry aim
:42:27. > :42:34.that is shared by all partndrs is how we increase salary levels in
:42:35. > :42:37.Cornwall. Labour was putting wages at the heart of its proposals to
:42:38. > :42:44.devolve more power to the rdgions this week. I want to explain why the
:42:45. > :42:48.cost of living crisis is such a huge challenge. I want to say whx it s
:42:49. > :42:56.happening. I want to explain why this government's approach hs
:42:57. > :42:58.inadequate. A Labour governlent would encourage plans that cross
:42:59. > :43:01.local government boundaries and double the amount of cash h`nded
:43:02. > :43:03.down from Whitehall. But business leaders in Cornwall are cautious
:43:04. > :43:08.about any moves back towards anything like the old regional
:43:09. > :43:11.development agencies, or RD@s. What I thought in the latter days of
:43:12. > :43:15.SWRDA became lost was what were the battles and who were they most
:43:16. > :43:18.fighting for? And what people in Cornwall don't want is for ht to
:43:19. > :43:24.become Bristol`centric when it doesn't have much relevance to us.
:43:25. > :43:30.And I believe the LEP has h`d more relevance. Labour has also said it
:43:31. > :43:34.would reinstate a minister for the south`west as a voice to boost the
:43:35. > :43:48.economy. But others say this is simply reinventing the wheel.
:43:49. > :43:54.Ann Mallalieu, a minister from the south`west, it sounds good, but so
:43:55. > :43:58.did localism. Can we expect to see any real change? We've got to
:43:59. > :44:02.because people are thoroughly fed up with the whole world revolvhng
:44:03. > :44:06.around London. And places ehther north or south`west feeling very
:44:07. > :44:12.isolated and left out. I thhnk there is a pot of money there which could
:44:13. > :44:16.be filtered down and a lot of it, a lot more should come down to the
:44:17. > :44:20.south`west, and the pot, and this is in my view, is a massive mistake
:44:21. > :44:25.that is about to be made with HS2. If you want to create local jobs and
:44:26. > :44:28.pull things out of the centre, you want to give people in thosd regions
:44:29. > :44:34.the money they know what nedds doing. Before we come back to that,
:44:35. > :44:39.HS2, we have encouraging figures from the IMF this week. Britain s
:44:40. > :44:45.economy is going to grow more than any other economy in the G7,
:44:46. > :44:52.overshadowing Ed Miliband's point. I think it has. It has got to be
:44:53. > :44:58.sustainable. We are by no mdans out of the woods so far. There `re some
:44:59. > :45:02.very unpleasant rumblings coming out of the east. And I think we have to
:45:03. > :45:08.look at what we do with the money we can generate now in the futtre. For
:45:09. > :45:13.too long, decisions both governments have made, the last one and this
:45:14. > :45:18.present one, they've made vdry short`term decisions resulthng from
:45:19. > :45:23.pressure of immediate media interest. I think it is important
:45:24. > :45:27.that both parties look at areas of the country which haven't h`d a fair
:45:28. > :45:33.shake of the dice. And the south`west undoubtedly is rhght I
:45:34. > :45:37.hope my party, the Labour P`rty will see that it may not have many
:45:38. > :45:41.MPs down here, but it has a lot of people who are sympathetic to many
:45:42. > :45:45.of the things they want to do. And we need some investment. Thd growth
:45:46. > :45:49.figures do indeed look good but there is this big divide between
:45:50. > :45:54.London and the regions. What is the government going to do about that? I
:45:55. > :45:58.think the MEPs have only re`lly been in existence for four years. And the
:45:59. > :46:02.Devon and Somerset one has only got its act together in the last two
:46:03. > :46:07.years, because it was delaydd because Cornwall wanted to go it
:46:08. > :46:11.alone. We have to give them time to prove themselves. In theory, the
:46:12. > :46:16.idea you can bring together unions, business, at a more localisdd level
:46:17. > :46:20.to set local priorities, is a good one. The fundamental issue hs the
:46:21. > :46:22.have a system where people bid for money, which is what we do have
:46:23. > :46:27.right now, or do you have the Ed right now, or do you have the Ed
:46:28. > :46:33.Miliband one, where you havd the money but not necessarily to every
:46:34. > :46:37.part. It is to sided by London, not by a bidding process. The south`west
:46:38. > :46:43.TUC is saying that big investments would not have got off the ground,
:46:44. > :46:49.so this system isn't working. Business leaders say that if there
:46:50. > :46:52.is a pot, it might go to Brhstol. I think the point here is what Ed
:46:53. > :46:57.Miliband is saying, which is he wants to give it to large areas and
:46:58. > :47:02.cities. There are not a lot of cities in the south`west. Btt there
:47:03. > :47:06.are a lot of cities in the North of England. I can't see that doing what
:47:07. > :47:12.Ann Mallalieu wants to do which is rectify the fact that the south`west
:47:13. > :47:16.has been missed out. Ed Milhband was saying that ?2 billion will not be
:47:17. > :47:22.enough, how much would be enough? A bigger slice of the money that is
:47:23. > :47:27.about to be wasted. And I go back to HS2. A bigger slice of that, spread
:47:28. > :47:32.around the country so that jobs are created not just along the places
:47:33. > :47:36.along the line, and we don't just create a funnel back to London,
:47:37. > :47:42.which is what I think will happen. I entirely agree but the problem is we
:47:43. > :47:45.do have a large number of L`bour MPs in the North of England who are all
:47:46. > :47:50.in favour of this, and a large number of Tory MPs in the South and
:47:51. > :47:52.East of England who are also in favour of this. It's trying to get
:47:53. > :48:00.the voice of the local people through. East Anglia, north of
:48:01. > :48:04.Scotland and the south`west. Looking at the figures for Torbay, xour
:48:05. > :48:08.constituency has the same GDP per head as Poland. There are not enough
:48:09. > :48:13.jobs and London has five tiles that GDP per head. Surely the government
:48:14. > :48:16.should be doing something drastically more? A minister for the
:48:17. > :48:23.south`west, someone who can bring money down. A minister might be very
:48:24. > :48:28.helpful. But, then again, it depends whether they have any real
:48:29. > :48:36.influence. We are doing quite well intensive getting more monex. There
:48:37. > :48:43.is the broadband money, the bypass, and the money hasn't been spent
:48:44. > :48:46.That was the same under the last government. It's only now that it is
:48:47. > :48:51.being recognised in getting some funding. If you look at it, we are
:48:52. > :48:56.London centric. The new buzzword, there is more distortion now than in
:48:57. > :49:00.the past. And certainly since the beginning of the recession. That is
:49:01. > :49:04.true. But we are in austere times, there's not enough money to go
:49:05. > :49:11.around, and yet we're getting lots more money funnelling into South
:49:12. > :49:17.Devon. ?101 million for the bypass. I will have to stop you there. We do
:49:18. > :49:20.have to move on. We can comd back to it.
:49:21. > :49:23.On Thursday, the Green Partx staged an anti`nuclear protest at Hinkley
:49:24. > :49:26.Point in Somerset. The plans for a new power station there got
:49:27. > :49:29.government approval last ye`r, but the building works are being held up
:49:30. > :49:34.by concerns about how much taxpayers' money is going in to the
:49:35. > :49:36.project. This week the European Commission began investigathng the
:49:37. > :49:39.price deal between the government and EDF Energy. John Henderson
:49:40. > :49:52.reports. Protesting against the power. Green
:49:53. > :49:57.Party activists at Hinkley Point in Somerset. It is the site for a new
:49:58. > :50:00.nuclear power station. Given approval last year, it is expected
:50:01. > :50:06.to generate 7% of the country's electricity supplied by 2024. At ?16
:50:07. > :50:11.billion it's costly and controversial. The UK government
:50:12. > :50:17.guaranteed power prices frol the plant for 35 years. Prices that are
:50:18. > :50:24.almost twice the current wholesale cost of electricity. This is an
:50:25. > :50:27.inappropriate use of state `id. The government came to power saxing it
:50:28. > :50:30.would only promote nuclear hf it could be done with no public
:50:31. > :50:33.subsidy. And, yet, it is perfectly clear there is a massive public
:50:34. > :50:36.subsidy going into new nucldar at Hinkley. The debate at Hinkley isn't
:50:37. > :50:41.the only time the region has seen protests over nuclear power. People
:50:42. > :50:46.in towns and villages have taken to the streets. In the early 80s,
:50:47. > :50:48.protesters were out in forcd when the central electricity gendrating
:50:49. > :50:56.board was looking for a possible nuclear power station in Cornwall.
:50:57. > :50:59.In the end, the site wasn't viable. But the protests led to the
:51:00. > :51:05.country's first commercial wind farm. They were going to put a
:51:06. > :51:08.nuclear power station in Cornwall. My wife was very much against it
:51:09. > :51:12.indeed. I always say you can't say you can't have something. You can
:51:13. > :51:16.only say what you want instdad. So it was blowing an absolute gale at
:51:17. > :51:22.the time. She said, can't you do it from wind? I said, I'll find out.
:51:23. > :51:27.And I found out. The wind f`rm here has recently been upgraded to
:51:28. > :51:31.produce power for 7,000 homds. Hinkley C will power nearly six
:51:32. > :51:37.million homes. It would takd 35 wind farms like this to match the
:51:38. > :51:40.power output of Hinkley C. But nuclear comes with risks. Chernobyl
:51:41. > :51:47.and Fukushima are examples of the dangers. Despite this, some in
:51:48. > :51:52.Cornwall say if it was a choice between wind and nuclear, it would
:51:53. > :51:55.be the latter. One nuclear power station compared with the ntmber of
:51:56. > :52:01.turbines going up across Cornwall is no comparison. When it comes to
:52:02. > :52:06.nuclear policy, all three Westminster parties are in favour.
:52:07. > :52:10.The Lib Dems signing up in ` dramatic U`turn last year.
:52:11. > :52:13.Yesterday, I did say I changed my mind. I've been changing it over the
:52:14. > :52:18.last few years primarily because of the threat of climate changd. Back
:52:19. > :52:22.at Hinkley, with contracts `lready signed, the Greens may have to
:52:23. > :52:32.resign themselves to a new reactor. But, for them, nuclear is still a
:52:33. > :52:36.disaster waiting to happen. Joining us to discuss this, we have
:52:37. > :52:42.Windy Miller from the Green Party. Welcome. Your party would lhke to
:52:43. > :52:46.see an end to nuclear energx. Where is the 20% that nuclear energy
:52:47. > :52:53.provides going to come from? Indeed, the main point is that nucldar power
:52:54. > :53:00.is unnecessary, it is an economic and unsafe. So, for instancd, we
:53:01. > :53:03.could save 35% of our energx use if we put measures in for energy
:53:04. > :53:07.efficiency, and, yet, what we had last year was the Energy Secretary
:53:08. > :53:15.at European level arguing against energy efficiency measures. Energy
:53:16. > :53:20.efficiency measures like wh`t? Through installation, through mainly
:53:21. > :53:24.also decentralise sources of power, so, we lose a massive amount through
:53:25. > :53:33.the idea of a national power grid, whereas it has been shown in Germany
:53:34. > :53:39.how many community energy sxstems can produce energy without losing it
:53:40. > :53:43.through the transmission. And it also benefits the local comlunity.
:53:44. > :53:49.Germany is an interesting example because they have invested, since
:53:50. > :53:53.Fukushima, heavily in renew`bles, 25% now. But prices of electricity
:53:54. > :53:56.have gone through the roof `nd manufacturers might leave and go to
:53:57. > :54:01.Eastern Europe. They are looking at coal`fired power stations again
:54:02. > :54:05.Indeed, you can say it will be a transition. The thing to be`r in
:54:06. > :54:11.mind, we might have been lucky at Hinckley. We were not so lucky in
:54:12. > :54:15.1957, the year I was born, or channel ball, or Fukushima. It is an
:54:16. > :54:18.ongoing disaster there which is going to cost as much as thd total
:54:19. > :54:25.cost of building or nuclear power stations to date. And they cannot
:54:26. > :54:29.even get near the nuclear rdactor. I use still hopeful that Hinckley
:54:30. > :54:34.although the deal has been signed, are you hopeful you can stop it I
:54:35. > :54:41.think as the truth comes out about the terrible cost and burden that
:54:42. > :54:47.nuclear power can give to a country, let alone causing birth defdcts and
:54:48. > :54:52.stillbirths, as ensuring noble. . I am going to stop you. Adrian
:54:53. > :54:56.Sanders, the Lib Dems have done a U`turn. They were in the sale
:54:57. > :55:01.position as Wendy and the Green Party a year ago, and suddenly last
:55:02. > :55:06.year, they changed their mind. Certainly, in coalition, we have
:55:07. > :55:11.signed up to Hinckley. Personally, I am very much with Wendy on this
:55:12. > :55:16.issue in that if Germany can phase out all its nuclear power stations
:55:17. > :55:22.by 2022, I don't see any re`son why we can't. We can do far mord... I
:55:23. > :55:26.think there is another side to this. We can do far more in terms of
:55:27. > :55:35.recycling, far more in terms of hybrid energy. But your party has
:55:36. > :55:39.changed its mind and has signed up. The Parliamentary party in coalition
:55:40. > :55:44.hands. The party itself in terms of its policy`making has not changed
:55:45. > :55:48.its mind. That is the worry. Are you worried you will lose votes because
:55:49. > :55:51.of this? In coalition, you have to find a compromise to get sole of
:55:52. > :55:58.your policies through, and sometimes you have to play loot some of your
:55:59. > :56:03.policies as well. People will judge the balance as to how well we have
:56:04. > :56:09.done. Ann Mallalieu, you ard signed up to nuclear with Labour, how does
:56:10. > :56:12.this sit with Ed Miliband's promise with freezing prices for fudl and
:56:13. > :56:16.energy? This will be very expensive and we've promised to doubld the
:56:17. > :56:23.price per unit so it is profitable for EDF. I've got concerns `bout the
:56:24. > :56:26.price, first of all. I think everybody has. I've got concerns
:56:27. > :56:31.about safety, which have bedn expressed already, but I want the
:56:32. > :56:34.lights to stay on. And if wd do not have a mix of ways of providing us
:56:35. > :56:38.with the end`mac `` with thd enormous amount of energy wd need,
:56:39. > :56:42.those lights will not stay on and some of us can remember when we have
:56:43. > :56:46.a three day week, and spells when the electricity was cut. Th`t is
:56:47. > :56:50.nothing compared to what wotld happen if we didn't go ahead now and
:56:51. > :56:54.produced truly efficient me`ns of production for the future. We have
:56:55. > :57:00.been delaying for far too long. Labour was responsible for that Of
:57:01. > :57:07.course it was. I come on and say my party has made mistakes every time!
:57:08. > :57:10.My party is quite different than the party members and individual MPs and
:57:11. > :57:15.those in government. Yukon to get away from the fact that the Lib Dems
:57:16. > :57:22.in coalition have jettisoned quite a number of what seemed to me to be
:57:23. > :57:26.firm tenets of their belief. We are 57 MPs in coalition with 300
:57:27. > :57:29.Tories. That is what happens. You are quite happy to take the jobs,
:57:30. > :57:34.yet you're not happy with the policies. We have improved hncome
:57:35. > :57:44.tax, we have managed to help lower paid people, we have expanddd..
:57:45. > :57:49.Just to jump in, the coalithon agreement gave your party and opt
:57:50. > :57:55.out. You didn't have to takd it It AV didn't have to join at all. It is
:57:56. > :58:06.a scare tactic to say keep the lights on. It really is. We can do
:58:07. > :58:13.wave power, hydroelectric, solar, wind. Why didn't you take the opt
:58:14. > :58:18.out? You would have to ask Dd Miliband. He worked with his Tory
:58:19. > :58:24.colleagues who are less keen on green taxes. So Ed Davey is
:58:25. > :58:27.responsible? At the end of the day, he will take the rap.
:58:28. > :58:34.Now our regular round`up of the political week in 60 seconds.
:58:35. > :58:39.Crime figures show domestic violence has risen by almost 20% in Devon and
:58:40. > :58:46.Cornwall but the Police Comlissioner said he didn't fully understand why.
:58:47. > :58:48.Neither my office, nor the police, nor Her Majesty's Inspector of
:58:49. > :58:55.Constabulary, do at the momdnt understand the increase in rapes and
:58:56. > :58:58.sexual crimes. Residents at Feniton claimed a
:58:59. > :59:06.victory for people power as plans for more than 200 new homes were
:59:07. > :59:10.turned down by a planning inspector. The fight against the closure of
:59:11. > :59:15.Great Torrington Hospital continued. A parish poll saw over 1,000 people
:59:16. > :59:21.voting to reopen it. The 24/7 care you get in our cottage hosphtal
:59:22. > :59:26.can't be replicated anywherd else. Exeter's new incinerator took in its
:59:27. > :59:31.first rubbish. And graffiti legalised in West Dorset. It's
:59:32. > :59:44.endorsed. It's legal. And it's backed by council members.
:59:45. > :59:51.So, let's look at housing. Ht is incredible, isn't it? The t`lk for
:59:52. > :59:56.more housing, and developments like that have still been turned down by
:59:57. > :00:01.the planning expect it. I think people want to see thriving
:00:02. > :00:05.communities, and they realise they need more houses. Equally, they
:00:06. > :00:11.don't want to see places sw`mped and consumed, and that seemed to me to
:00:12. > :00:14.be a sensible solution by the planning inspector. I hope there
:00:15. > :00:21.will be more developer 's allowed, developer 's that do not sw`mp
:00:22. > :00:25.towns. We get too hung up on a numbers game on the number of
:00:26. > :00:29.houses. We ought to be talkhng about the type of housing that medts local
:00:30. > :00:35.need. You might be able to do that with fewer houses being built than
:00:36. > :00:36.sometimes imposing it. That'll have to be topic of discussion.
:00:37. > :00:40.That's the Sunday Politics hn risk. We have run out of time. --
:00:41. > :00:50.particular candidates. Back to you, Andrew.
:00:51. > :00:52.The sun's out, Ed Balls has run the London Marathon, and MPs leave
:00:53. > :01:03.Westminster for their Easter break. Let's discuss what's coming up in
:01:04. > :01:08.the Week Ahead. We will get more of what we have
:01:09. > :01:13.just seen. Let's look back on the debate. What did we learn from the
:01:14. > :01:16.argument is? That it is going to bore and irritate whole lot of
:01:17. > :01:20.people, this election campaign. Four parties shouting at each other about
:01:21. > :01:23.things that most people do not know much about. They know very little
:01:24. > :01:31.about how the European Parliament works, what an MEP is supposed to
:01:32. > :01:37.do. A lot of heat and not a lot of light. I've updated well, all of
:01:38. > :01:41.them, but the net effect is not going to encourage people to go out
:01:42. > :01:49.and vote and not many do. One thing that struck me was that on Europe,
:01:50. > :01:53.the Labour and Lib Dem positions are not that far apart. They are pretty
:01:54. > :01:57.much the same. And yet the knocks lots of each other. I suppose they
:01:58. > :02:02.feel that they had to do that because that is the format. I'd
:02:03. > :02:08.agree with Polly. Their word UKIP and the Tories to attack two we try
:02:09. > :02:12.to make it exciting, and we know the issues are important. But people out
:02:13. > :02:17.there have not heard of these individuals. It is not very
:02:18. > :02:21.exciting. That is worrying because these are huge national questions
:02:22. > :02:27.for us. We need to find a way of making it more fun. People may not
:02:28. > :02:32.know these MEPs, they may not know the detail of the debate, but it is
:02:33. > :02:36.an issue on which people have strong opinions. It is a visceral thing for
:02:37. > :02:38.many people. Especially on the immigration issue. The debate took
:02:39. > :02:45.off and became more vociferous at that point. To a large extent, you
:02:46. > :02:49.wonder whether not only this European election but the eventual
:02:50. > :02:53.referendum will be a referendum on the issue of immigration and free
:02:54. > :02:56.movement. If we did not learn much from the argument, the thing we did
:02:57. > :03:04.learn is that the structure of these televised debate influences the
:03:05. > :03:10.outcome. One of the reasons that Nigel Farage did well in the debate
:03:11. > :03:14.is that in a two-man debate, each man has as good a chance as the
:03:15. > :03:19.other. If it is four people, one man can be ganged up on. Patrick O'Flynn
:03:20. > :03:23.did well for a man who is not an elected politician yet. At times, 40
:03:24. > :03:26.came under attack and did not hold the line as well as you would
:03:27. > :03:30.expect. Does that create a perverse incentive for the main parties to
:03:31. > :03:35.agree to a four way debate before the general election? I do not think
:03:36. > :03:39.the David Cameron has nearly as much to worry about from a televised
:03:40. > :03:42.debate in the run-up to the elections than his spin doctors
:03:43. > :03:46.believe. When you put him up against Ed Miliband, and we have not
:03:47. > :03:52.actually seen Ed Miliband in that format, I think he will come off all
:03:53. > :03:57.right. This is an election which the polls would have us believe that the
:03:58. > :04:03.battle for first place is between UKIP and labour. It certainly is.
:04:04. > :04:06.Obviously, it is neck and neck and we will not know until we are
:04:07. > :04:12.closer. And it matters a lot to both of them. If Mr Miliband does not
:04:13. > :04:17.come first, that is not good news for the main opposition at this
:04:18. > :04:22.stage. Except to some extent all of the people will put it to one side
:04:23. > :04:28.and say that this is a bizarre election. A plague on both your
:04:29. > :04:34.houses, let's vote UKIP. It is not clear how much that translates into
:04:35. > :04:39.the next election. It is not too disastrous for Labour. It would be
:04:40. > :04:44.better if they came first. If Mr Miliband comes first, not a problem,
:04:45. > :04:49.but it becomes second and UKIP soars away, what are the consequences I
:04:50. > :04:52.think there is a widespread expectation already at Westminster
:04:53. > :04:58.that UKIP is very likely to come first. If Ed Miliband fails to come
:04:59. > :05:02.first, there will not be a great deal of shock in the West Mr
:05:03. > :05:05.village. Else think what is remarkable about Ed Miliband is that
:05:06. > :05:11.despite consistently poor personal leadership approval ratings, the
:05:12. > :05:17.overall Labour poll is consistently very high. We have seen that budget
:05:18. > :05:23.blip, it seems to have taken us back to where we were before. Leadership
:05:24. > :05:26.is not everything. Mrs Thatcher was miles behind James Callaghan but in
:05:27. > :05:31.the end, it was the party politics that mattered more. If Mr Cameron
:05:32. > :05:36.comes third and the Tories come third, maybe a poor third, is it
:05:37. > :05:41.headless chicken time on the Tory backbenchers? It has often been said
:05:42. > :05:47.that the Tory Party has two modes, complacency and panic. You will see
:05:48. > :05:53.them shift into panic mode. By June, I think. Many of the stories in the
:05:54. > :05:57.sun will be about David Cameron s personal leadership and his grip on
:05:58. > :06:01.the party. There will be pressure on conference by the time that comes
:06:02. > :06:08.around. It is a natural consequence of being the incumbent party. The
:06:09. > :06:12.Lib Dems are 7% in two of the polls today. It was widely thought that in
:06:13. > :06:19.the first and second debates, Nigel Farage won both. In retrospect, was
:06:20. > :06:25.the challenge strategy a disaster for Mr Clegg? I do not think it was
:06:26. > :06:32.because he had nothing to lose. But he is lower in the polls than when
:06:33. > :06:38.he started. He has not lost a great deal. The polls were quite often
:06:39. > :06:43.that low. I think it was a good thing to do. It raised his profile.
:06:44. > :06:47.It made him the leading party in. That may be a difficult place to
:06:48. > :06:52.be. That is how you end up with 7% in the polls. The reason he is
:06:53. > :06:55.fighting with Labour is that he knows very well that all he has to
:06:56. > :06:59.do is to get his votes back that have gone to Labour and labour have
:07:00. > :07:05.to fight hard to make sure that they do not go back. Every party looks to
:07:06. > :07:09.where it is going to get it support. If it is a wipe-out for the
:07:10. > :07:15.Lib Dems, and they lose all their MEPs, not saying that is going to
:07:16. > :07:20.happen but you could not rule it out for, are we back in Nick Clegg
:07:21. > :07:24.leadership crisis territory? One of the astonishing things about this
:07:25. > :07:28.Parliament is the relative absence of leadership speculation about Nick
:07:29. > :07:31.Clegg will stop at the first couple of years, his position seems
:07:32. > :07:35.tricky, but maybe that is because Chris Hughton is gone and he was the
:07:36. > :07:38.only plausible candidate. This cable is not getting any younger, to put
:07:39. > :07:43.it delicately. That was not delegate at all! And we have reached a
:07:44. > :07:46.desperate stage where Danny Alexander is talked about as a
:07:47. > :07:50.candidate. That was not delegate either! Maybe he is holding onto
:07:51. > :07:56.power the lack of alternatives. If they ended up with no MEPs at all,
:07:57. > :08:02.and a less than double digits score... With Danny Alexander, it is
:08:03. > :08:05.clear that Scotland, one way or another, will be moving further
:08:06. > :08:12.away. You could not have the leader of a national party be a Scot. But
:08:13. > :08:16.he does not have the following in the party. I'm glad you're liberal
:08:17. > :08:21.attitudes to immigration extends to me. I would not have been here for
:08:22. > :08:27.43 years. There will be leadership talk after that holes. It has been
:08:28. > :08:32.bubbling in the background, but you have to talk to the grass roots
:08:33. > :08:37.activists. -- after the polls. The grass roots activists are
:08:38. > :08:40.despairing. If things are bad, they lose their network of activists who
:08:41. > :08:44.they need to fight the next election. I think you mean, not that
:08:45. > :08:48.you could have a Scot, but that it would be more difficult to have a
:08:49. > :08:54.Scot from a Scottish constituency. Absolutely. I think a Scottish
:08:55. > :09:01.constituency, so many things will be different. Or to hold the great
:09:02. > :09:05.offices of state. Let's come onto the Crown Prosecution Service is. It
:09:06. > :09:08.is an English institution. Where does the CPS and after losing yet
:09:09. > :09:13.another high-profile case come this time Nigel Evans? They had nine
:09:14. > :09:20.counts against him and they did not win on one. It is obviously very
:09:21. > :09:22.embarrassing. They will have a bit of explain to do but I guess the
:09:23. > :09:26.threshold for bringing these cases is high. There has to be considered
:09:27. > :09:32.at least a 50-50 chance of actually winning the case. We do not know
:09:33. > :09:35.what went on behind the scenes when they weighed up whether to bring the
:09:36. > :09:39.case. Nigel Evans makes an interesting point about whether it
:09:40. > :09:45.is legitimate to bundle together a number of stand-alone relatively
:09:46. > :09:49.weak accusations, and when you put them together to militantly, the CPS
:09:50. > :09:53.uses that to make a case. Is that a legitimate thing to do? He was a
:09:54. > :10:01.high-profile figure, not just because he was a Tory MP. He was the
:10:02. > :10:06.deputy speaker of the House. And yet the CPS are certainly the police, to
:10:07. > :10:11.begin with they did not have that many people to testify against him.
:10:12. > :10:14.And then they trawled for more. You wonder if they would have done that
:10:15. > :10:17.if it was not for the fact that he was a public figure. The trouble is,
:10:18. > :10:21.they are dammed if they do and dammed if they do not. Particularly
:10:22. > :10:24.with politicians and the reputation they have these days, if there is
:10:25. > :10:27.any suggestion that they let somebody off because they are a
:10:28. > :10:34.high-profile politician, and they are saying that about Cyril Smith,
:10:35. > :10:37.that is the accusation. A strange story. Most unlikely and very
:10:38. > :10:42.bizarre. But that is the accusation. If there is any with of that, I can
:10:43. > :10:47.see why the CPS says, we better let the courts try this one. Also, they
:10:48. > :10:55.are in trouble overrated cases because their success rate on
:10:56. > :10:58.bringing people to court for rape is so thin. When it looked as if his
:10:59. > :11:01.accusers were not really accusing him, it looks quite weak. You cannot
:11:02. > :11:06.help but feeling that they are falling over backwards now in
:11:07. > :11:11.high-profile cases because of their abject and total failure over Jimmy
:11:12. > :11:14.Savile. I think this is exactly the kind of case that happens when you
:11:15. > :11:19.are trying to make a point or redeem a reputation or change a culture.
:11:20. > :11:23.All of these big things. As opposed to what criminal justice is supposed
:11:24. > :11:25.to be about, which is specific crimes and specific evidence
:11:26. > :11:29.matching those crimes. The CPS has no copper a fleet joined in this
:11:30. > :11:33.list of public and situations that has taken a fall over the past five
:11:34. > :11:36.or six years. We have had Parliament, the newspapers, the
:11:37. > :11:39.police will stop I think this is as bad a humiliation as any of those
:11:40. > :11:43.because it is Innocent people suffering. You are the most recent,
:11:44. > :11:48.being a lobby correspondent in Westminster, and we now see on
:11:49. > :11:53.Channel 4 News that basically, Westminster is twinned with Sodom
:11:54. > :11:59.and Gomorrah. Yes. I know. Is this true? It is all rather the red. I do
:12:00. > :12:04.not move in those circles. And you were in the lobby at one stage? Not
:12:05. > :12:07.that long ago. Is it right. Is it right to be twinned with Sodom and
:12:08. > :12:14.Gomorrah? I'll ask him for his opinion. Being technically a member
:12:15. > :12:19.of the lobby, I can observe some of this stuff. And what surprises me is
:12:20. > :12:23.that journalists, when the complain about Sodom and Gomorrah, write
:12:24. > :12:29.themselves out of it. It is as if it is just MPs. We are unalloyed and
:12:30. > :12:33.unvarnished. Actually, the fact is it has always been a bit like Sodom
:12:34. > :12:37.and tomorrow. Of course it has. Think about how we have had wave
:12:38. > :12:41.after wave of stories and scandals. But less of it recently. It was I
:12:42. > :12:46.think that attitudes have slightly changed. I'll also think that if you
:12:47. > :12:52.get 650 people in any organisation and you put that much scrutiny on
:12:53. > :12:58.them, you will find an awful lot going on in most people's officers
:12:59. > :14:02.of a scurrilous nature. Even in the BBC
:14:03. > :14:04.In 2013, the public voted for a portrait of
:14:05. > :14:12.At times he's interesting, at times he's very funny,
:14:13. > :14:20.My life is a very happy life and I'm a very happy person.
:14:21. > :14:22.Will you feel nervous when this is unveiled?
:14:23. > :14:26.I suppose being the centre of attention but for ever.