:00:37. > :00:43.Well, this is the closest I'll get to Rio.
:00:44. > :00:48.The advance of the Islamist army on Baghdad has been slowed.
:00:49. > :00:50.The Iraqi army claims the fightback has begun.
:00:51. > :00:52.But the country now faces a de facto partition.
:00:53. > :00:55.What should Britain, Europe, or the US be doing - if anything?
:00:56. > :00:58.It's been a big week in the Scottish referendum.
:00:59. > :01:02.But has the tone of the debate become too downright nasty?
:01:03. > :01:10.Both sides join us to go head to head.
:01:11. > :01:13.I will swap Ed Miliband for Tim Farren. What is the significance of
:01:14. > :01:15.that? And in the South West.
:01:16. > :01:22.even Westminster, we'll be asking The Prime Minister's accused of
:01:23. > :01:24."not getting tourism" as thd industry campaigns for a VAT cut.
:01:25. > :01:31.And the region leads In London, why the minority vote one
:01:32. > :01:32.recent elections Labour, but recent support amongst people is bigger
:01:33. > :01:43.than assumed. The Sunni Islamist army known
:01:44. > :01:46.as ISIS is now in control of huge swathes of northern
:01:47. > :01:48.and western Iraq, including Until the weekend they looked
:01:49. > :01:52.like advancing relentlessly on Baghdad but that offensive has
:01:53. > :01:54.now been slowed or even halted The Iraqi army
:01:55. > :01:59.and its Shia milita allies vow that Baghdad will not be taken and that
:02:00. > :02:06.a counter-attack will soon begin. Iraq's Shia Prime Minister Nouri
:02:07. > :02:08.al-Maliki has to do something to reverse the humiliation
:02:09. > :02:10.of recent days, which saw his US-trained and equipped Iraqi
:02:11. > :02:16.army, which outnumbered the Islamists 15 to 1 melt away or
:02:17. > :02:19.surrender when confronted by ISIS. The conflict has already created a
:02:20. > :02:22.humanitarian crisis, with hundreds The Kurds have used the conflict to
:02:23. > :02:32.consolidate their hold on their autonomous area in the north, parts
:02:33. > :02:36.of the west and the north are in the grip of ISIS control and the Shias
:02:37. > :02:39.are hunkering down in the east. All of which makes a three-way
:02:40. > :02:42.partition a real possibility with The US is moving another
:02:43. > :02:46.of its massive aircraft carrier battlefleets to the Gulf,
:02:47. > :02:49.though the White House shows no While Iran says it's ready to help
:02:50. > :02:53.its Shia allies and there are unconfoirmed reports
:02:54. > :02:55.that its revolutionary guard has Well, I'm joined now by Newsnight's
:02:56. > :03:14.diplomatic editor Mark Urban. Let's start with some basics. Who
:03:15. > :03:21.are ISIS and why are they controlling big chunks of Iraq? ISIS
:03:22. > :03:25.is an extremist militant jihad organisation and they have a pure
:03:26. > :03:29.Islamic concept based on 14th century history and jurisprudence.
:03:30. > :03:35.What they want to do is correct -- create this caliphate that do not
:03:36. > :03:39.recognise colonial boundaries so it involves Syria and Iraq, and they
:03:40. > :03:42.could go down to Lebanon and Palestine, that is all fair game as
:03:43. > :03:47.far as they are concerned. And they have this strict interpretation of
:03:48. > :03:53.Islam. The more interesting question is why have semi-Sunni Muslims,
:03:54. > :03:58.along with them, these are precisely the sort of people who in 2006,
:03:59. > :04:02.2007, tribal leaders in the west of the country rose up against. It was
:04:03. > :04:07.called the Awakening and the Americans in power did and
:04:08. > :04:12.bankrolled it. These people turned against them and admired them in
:04:13. > :04:15.large numbers, so why do they have so many Sunni Muslims on their
:04:16. > :04:18.side? We hear about people going back to Mosul. I think the answer is
:04:19. > :04:21.a perception back to Mosul. I think the answer
:04:22. > :04:25.that the current government is ruling in sectarian interests, Shia
:04:26. > :04:28.Muslim interest, and the Sunni Muslims want self-determination and
:04:29. > :04:32.this is their best bet. Muslims want self-determination and
:04:33. > :04:35.this is their Let me put up this map to find out where we are going. We
:04:36. > :04:40.can see Mosul in the north, they took that, and then they started,
:04:41. > :04:49.South, reports that the crit was involved -- to grit -- to grit. What
:04:50. > :04:53.is the situation on the ground now? We are in what you might call a
:04:54. > :05:01.consolidation or strategic pause as American called it in 2003. ISIS are
:05:02. > :05:04.trying to consolidate their power in Mosul, and now they have this major
:05:05. > :05:08.city and they are trying to show they can run the city and get the
:05:09. > :05:12.power going, etc. Their southernmost forces, that is a gorilla army, guys
:05:13. > :05:18.in pick-up trucks. They cannot deal with serious opposition. They would
:05:19. > :05:21.like to get the tanks and other things into action but that could
:05:22. > :05:26.take weeks for them to be able to do it. The government side is that they
:05:27. > :05:30.have counter-attacked, but it will take a little while before these
:05:31. > :05:36.newly raised militia and other task forces, call them what you will can
:05:37. > :05:42.effectively counter-attacked. But that is what will happen in the next
:05:43. > :05:44.week or two. We will see increasingly large and serious
:05:45. > :05:53.government counter-attacked trying to retake those places, and I fear a
:05:54. > :06:00.really difficult, bloody Syrian style street by street battle for
:06:01. > :06:06.some of these urban centres. I would like to have a look at this map
:06:07. > :06:08.because the Kurds, as I mentioned, they are consolidating their
:06:09. > :06:14.position in the autonomous region in the north. The Islamist are taking
:06:15. > :06:20.over huge chunks of the Sunni Muslim West. And of course the Shia Muslim
:06:21. > :06:24.are still dominant in control of Baghdad and in parts of the south
:06:25. > :06:33.and east. Back to me looks like the beginnings of the partition of Iraq.
:06:34. > :06:36.-- back to me. Well, it is, but we have to caveat it in a few ways
:06:37. > :06:42.Firstly, there are millions of people in Iraq, so-called sushi
:06:43. > :06:46.combined families, who do not fit easily into the pattern. Do we see
:06:47. > :06:52.millions of people becoming refugees under this scheme? There would be a
:06:53. > :06:56.lot of human tragedies if people really did try to enforce this type
:06:57. > :07:03.partition. Secondly, there are Sunni Muslim communities in the south of
:07:04. > :07:08.Baghdad, those places, once again, a lot of misery and fighting will
:07:09. > :07:20.occur if people try to enforce a de facto partition. There are still an
:07:21. > :07:25.awakening of forces. They are on the side of the government. We heard
:07:26. > :07:30.about one group in Samarra of Sunni Muslims fighting on the same side.
:07:31. > :07:33.It's a complex picture. They factor, it does look like a partition, and
:07:34. > :07:40.if it goes further in that direction it will. And partition will always
:07:41. > :07:43.be messy because people end up on the wrong side of the lies.
:07:44. > :07:48.Finally, the big thing on that map, Iran, a huge place, a huge border
:07:49. > :07:55.with Shia Muslim Iraq. Iran now becomes a key factor. It is becoming
:07:56. > :07:58.a proxy war for Iran. Yes, when I was in Baghdad a few months ago I
:07:59. > :08:02.did actually see Iranians revolutionary guards in uniform
:08:03. > :08:08.They were protecting a senior Iranians official, so some numbers
:08:09. > :08:13.have been never some time and they are also said to protect the
:08:14. > :08:17.political leaders and -- in his compound. They are there. We think
:08:18. > :08:21.more of them are trying to organise the defence of Baghdad to galvanise
:08:22. > :08:26.the Iraqi army, and they will not allow the Iraqi government to fall.
:08:27. > :08:31.Mark, thank you for marking archive this morning. -- marking our card.
:08:32. > :08:33.Tony Blair took Britain into the Iraq conflict in 2003.
:08:34. > :08:36.He's now, among other things, envoy to the Middle East representing
:08:37. > :08:39.That's the UN, the EU, the US and Russia.
:08:40. > :08:41.This morning he entered the debate about what should be
:08:42. > :08:52.My point is simple. If you left Saddam in place in 2003, when 2 11
:08:53. > :08:58.happened and you have the Arab revolutions going through Tunisia,
:08:59. > :09:03.Libya, Yemen, Bahrain and Egypt and Syria, you would still have had a
:09:04. > :09:06.major problem in Iraq. You can see what happens when you leave the
:09:07. > :09:10.dictator in place, as has happened with Bashar al-Assad. The problem
:09:11. > :09:15.doesn't go away. What I'm trying to say is, we can rerun the debates
:09:16. > :09:19.about 2003, and there are perfectly legitimate points on either side,
:09:20. > :09:22.but where we are in 2014, we have do understand that this is a regional
:09:23. > :09:26.problem, but a problem that will affect us.
:09:27. > :09:28.And I'm joined by the former Foreign Office minister Mark Malloch-Brown,
:09:29. > :09:32.Here in London are James Rubin, he was chief spokesman
:09:33. > :09:35.for the State Department under Bill Clinton, and Bayan Rahman,
:09:36. > :09:47.she represents the Kurdistan Regional government in the UK.
:09:48. > :09:52.Intervened in Iraq, it's a shambles, we don't intervene in Syria, it s a
:09:53. > :09:58.shambles. What lessons should we draw? That is a well framed
:09:59. > :10:01.question, because that is the problem. Tony Blair is half right.
:10:02. > :10:06.Iraq, like Syria, would probably have been a problem even without an
:10:07. > :10:11.intervention. But one wishes someone would tell him to stay quiet during
:10:12. > :10:15.moments like this, because it does drive a great surge of people in the
:10:16. > :10:18.other direction. The fact is, what has been missing in western politics
:10:19. > :10:24.towards the Middle East throughout both episodes, Syria and Iraq, is a
:10:25. > :10:29.drive to build an inclusive, democratic centre which is secular
:10:30. > :10:33.and nonsectarian. That has been missing amongst the threats of
:10:34. > :10:38.invasion Manon invasion, we have just constantly neglected the
:10:39. > :10:43.diplomatic nation-building dimensional this. I want to come
:10:44. > :10:47.onto what is happening on the ground. I want to begin with what
:10:48. > :10:50.the Western response by me, and by that we mean the United States,
:10:51. > :10:54.because of it doesn't do anything, nobody will do anything. All of the
:10:55. > :10:58.signals I see coming out of the White is that Barack Obama has no
:10:59. > :11:02.appetite for intervention -- out of the White House. I don't think he
:11:03. > :11:09.does have an appetite. He would be very unlikely to do anything very
:11:10. > :11:14.large. He might feel pressured to act because of the fact that this
:11:15. > :11:18.particular group, this Al-Qaeda inspired group, fits into the
:11:19. > :11:22.strategy he has pursued in Yemen and Afghanistan and Pakistan, to use
:11:23. > :11:33.drone strikes against individual terrorists. So it is possible that
:11:34. > :11:37.the threat of ISIS in the region and the West in general might inspire
:11:38. > :11:43.him to act, but the idea he will do enough, militarily, to transform
:11:44. > :11:49.Iraq from its current state of civil War into something along the lines
:11:50. > :11:54.that Mark was talking about, nation-building diplomacy, a big
:11:55. > :11:58.operation, I don't see President Obama sees his historic mission as
:11:59. > :12:03.having got the United States as out of it. Leave it to the Pacific,
:12:04. > :12:09.perhaps. What would the Kurds like the West to do? First of all, in
:12:10. > :12:13.Kurdistan we face a huge humanitarian crisis. We already have
:12:14. > :12:16.had bought a quarter of a million Syrian refugees and we were
:12:17. > :12:22.struggling to cope with that. And now we have at least double that
:12:23. > :12:25.number of refugees coming from Mosul. First and foremost, we are
:12:26. > :12:30.calling on the international community to help us with that. So
:12:31. > :12:33.we need humanitarian aid? Let's assume we do that in some way, maybe
:12:34. > :12:38.not enough, but what else if anything? I think it is an incumbent
:12:39. > :12:44.on the west and other powers to assist Iraq to get rid of ISIS. I
:12:45. > :12:51.think the Sunni Arab community, some of whom have joined ISIS and may be
:12:52. > :12:58.supported the uprising, have justified complaints against the
:12:59. > :13:01.federal government. But we need the terrorists out of Iraq. That is
:13:02. > :13:05.first and foremost. And what the West can do is not necessarily
:13:06. > :13:08.intervene with boots on the ground, but provide technical assistance,
:13:09. > :13:14.provide intelligence and help the Iraqi army and air force to be more
:13:15. > :13:22.targeted. Can you defend yourselves? In Kurdistan, we can in terms of the
:13:23. > :13:25.disciplined troops. In this situation, I hope they won't be
:13:26. > :13:30.abandoning their post, that is for sure. It is a national cause fires.
:13:31. > :13:36.But we are not armed in the way that the Iraqi army is -- cause for us.
:13:37. > :13:40.We are not armed in the way that ISIS seems to be now they have
:13:41. > :13:43.seized some of the American kit We are not asking for weapons, but we
:13:44. > :13:48.ask for assistance for all of Iraq to deal with the situation. Mark,
:13:49. > :13:53.this is not just an Iraqi problem. This is a regional conflict, and
:13:54. > :13:57.from the Levant on the shores of the Mediterranean, all the way through
:13:58. > :14:04.to the Gulf, the region is gripped with what is essentially a Sunni and
:14:05. > :14:07.Shia Muslim sectarian war. Yes, with the caveats that Mark bourbon made
:14:08. > :14:11.earlier, it's not quite that straightforward, but the basic
:14:12. > :14:16.divide is exactly that -- Mark Urban. People have been looking for
:14:17. > :14:19.this to begin in Lebanon or Jordan and have been taken by surprise
:14:20. > :14:26.although with hindsight I'm not sure why, that it has begun in Iraq
:14:27. > :14:28.instead. At its most extreme, it risks redrawing the 20th century
:14:29. > :14:33.boundaries of the region in a way which would be highly unstable
:14:34. > :14:38.because it would pit a Shia Muslim bloc against the Sunni Muslim bloc
:14:39. > :14:43.and would undo all of the sort of social and economic advance of the
:14:44. > :14:48.last century, so the stakes are suddenly very, very high indeed Are
:14:49. > :14:54.we seeing the redrawing? The lines were drawn secretly, not far from
:14:55. > :14:58.here, about a mile away, and may have survived through thick and
:14:59. > :15:03.thin. They now look pretty fragile. The map is being redrawn. I think it
:15:04. > :15:10.is true that there is a key factor partition going on -- des facto
:15:11. > :15:17.Woodrow Wilson probably gave a bit of a hand to the promotion of the
:15:18. > :15:20.idea of self-determination, and in a way, there is a self determination
:15:21. > :15:24.going on, particularly in the Kurdish region, and perhaps they may
:15:25. > :15:30.end up the big winners in all of this, because they have proceeded
:15:31. > :15:32.with a relatively moderate, reconcilable government. The key
:15:33. > :15:43.thing that the Kurdish region has done. They used to fight the two
:15:44. > :15:48.groups, and now they fight together. What the Sunni Muslims have not done
:15:49. > :15:56.is figure out how to let politics let the side things instead of guns.
:15:57. > :16:03.We need to look clearly and in Syria and Iraq, if there is a Sunni
:16:04. > :16:08.extremist with ISIS that carves out a place for itself, it will be the
:16:09. > :16:13.great irony of the modern era. President Bush said he wanted to go
:16:14. > :16:21.into Iraq to fight terrorism. There was no terrorist. There are now If
:16:22. > :16:27.in Iraq and Syria together thereat a thousand strong Al-Qaeda capability
:16:28. > :16:29.that threatens the region, the West, the world, we are all going to
:16:30. > :16:57.have to do something about it. The danger is that power will
:16:58. > :17:02.spread. This could grow in power. You would not want it on your
:17:03. > :17:05.southern border. Absolutely, we would not. The point we are all
:17:06. > :17:11.making indirectly is that things have changed in Iraq and will never
:17:12. > :17:14.be the same again. Whether Iraq completely disintegrates into three
:17:15. > :17:15.countries, or whether it stays together as one country, but a
:17:16. > :17:19.countries, or whether it stays together as one country, but loose
:17:20. > :17:25.federation, either way, Iraq has changed. It will not go back to what
:17:26. > :17:29.it was. I hope it will change for the better. I think we're at the
:17:30. > :17:37.make or break point for Iraq. Either the political readers -- the
:17:38. > :17:41.political leaders of a right wake up and smell the coffee and put aside
:17:42. > :17:46.their differences or there will be problems. This provides that
:17:47. > :17:52.opportunity, in a very nasty way. If we take it? Yes, and if not, I think
:17:53. > :18:01.this is the end of a rack as we know it. If anything resembling a
:18:02. > :18:06.caliphate emerges, that is very destabilising for the region itself.
:18:07. > :18:10.More so I would suggest than even the Taliban and Al-Qaeda in
:18:11. > :18:18.Afghanistan. At some stage, you have to assume that they will be coming
:18:19. > :18:27.for us. That is correct. This is extremely dangerous. The only way
:18:28. > :18:32.forward is for these political groups to talk to each other and
:18:33. > :18:36.find a compromise that allows the rates of cinemas and minorities in
:18:37. > :18:39.Iraq to be protected within or the rates of cinemas and minorities in
:18:40. > :18:43.Iraq to be protected with an autonomous federal-state. Any
:18:44. > :18:46.support for the government must be premised on that. There is no
:18:47. > :19:03.military solution for this which is in during -- there is no military
:19:04. > :19:08.solution for this. There must be serious political negotiation, not
:19:09. > :19:12.with ISIS, but with Sunni Muslim moderates, to form a more
:19:13. > :19:17.representative government. This is the last chance for Iraq. I think we
:19:18. > :19:20.are all saying that that is going to need to be some major western
:19:21. > :19:26.leadership to make some big decisions here for the future of the
:19:27. > :19:30.region. I am concerned that after Afghanistan and Iraq, my country is
:19:31. > :19:35.quite world-weary, quite world-weary. It does not seem to be
:19:36. > :19:40.giving leadership. Certainly we are not seeing that in Europe. I am
:19:41. > :19:44.deeply concerned that we are not going to take the leadership role
:19:45. > :19:50.that needs to be taken. These are big issues. When Britain and France
:19:51. > :19:53.carved up the Middle East, they were world powers, operating as global
:19:54. > :19:58.powers, and without that global leadership by somebody, this is just
:19:59. > :20:00.going to get worse and worse. I think we will leave it there, thank
:20:01. > :20:05.you very much. The danger is that power will
:20:06. > :20:10.spread. This could grow in power. It is just under 100 days until the
:20:11. > :20:13.referendum on Scottish independence. So, for once,
:20:14. > :20:15.it'll be a long hot-summer But the campaign isn't
:20:16. > :20:20.just getting heated. In places it's also
:20:21. > :20:22.down-right nasty. When Scotland's best-selling author
:20:23. > :20:24.announced she was giving the unionist cause a million pounds
:20:25. > :20:26.this week, she received Independence supporters online,
:20:27. > :20:34.so-called cybernats, called JK Rowling a traitor
:20:35. > :20:37.and much worse, using a variety of For its part, the Better Together
:20:38. > :20:41.campaign has been accused Even Gordon Brown seems to think so,
:20:42. > :20:44.and this week he criticised Conservative ministers
:20:45. > :20:46.for relying on "threats With the Edinburgh Festival
:20:47. > :20:51.approaching, reports suggest even comedians are now reluctant to
:20:52. > :20:54.engage in the subject because I'm joined by Blair Jenkins from
:20:55. > :21:00.Yes Scotland and Jackie Baillie They're both in our Glasgow studio,
:21:01. > :21:20.and they're going head to head. Blair Jenkins, let me come to you
:21:21. > :21:24.first. Why have you and the Better Together campaign and Alex Salmond
:21:25. > :21:28.not done more to slap down the cyber nationalists who are poisoning the
:21:29. > :21:34.debate? Good morning. I think both sides tried to stop the tiny number
:21:35. > :21:38.of people on both sides who are incapable of controlling
:21:39. > :21:42.themselves. We should not get this out of proportion. We are having a
:21:43. > :21:46.fantastic, decent and democratic debate. The people who probably
:21:47. > :21:50.total no more than 100 on both sides who post offensive material or not
:21:51. > :21:55.to be allowed to deflect from that fact. Of course there are nasty
:21:56. > :21:59.people on the Better Together side as well, but are you saying there
:22:00. > :22:05.are as many of those as the cyber nationalists? I have not done the
:22:06. > :22:11.Kent. Lots of people are certainly posting nasty in defensive things to
:22:12. > :22:15.people in the yes campaigners well. I imagine that people do what I do,
:22:16. > :22:22.and block them. You stop them from sending anything further. There is a
:22:23. > :22:26.democratic and in gauging progress going on throughout Scotland. It is
:22:27. > :22:29.characterised by good humour and good debate. We should not get out
:22:30. > :22:36.of proportion and the activities of the number of people. I want to get
:22:37. > :22:39.to Jackie Baillie. The debate is actually pretty good-humoured and
:22:40. > :22:43.you should be doing more about the nasties on your side as well? I
:22:44. > :22:48.think we have reached a new low this week. Despite many people engaging
:22:49. > :22:54.in the politics of the decision and the debate about that, whether we
:22:55. > :22:58.want to retain the best of both worlds are separate from the United
:22:59. > :23:05.Kingdom, what we have seen is the most abusive and vitriolic attack,
:23:06. > :23:10.particularly on women, JK Rowling and a Labour supporter who dared to
:23:11. > :23:15.support the no campaign. When you look at the number of people on
:23:16. > :23:20.social media, there are more from the yes campaign than the no site.
:23:21. > :23:28.We should all be condemning attacks, from whatever quarter they come
:23:29. > :23:32.This seemed to be connected to the office of the First Minister. What
:23:33. > :23:37.is the evidence for that? There was an e-mail from one of the... I
:23:38. > :23:47.understand about that, but it did not use vile words. It did not, but
:23:48. > :23:51.it repeated the same mistake as on the website. We should be clear that
:23:52. > :23:56.we need to condemn these attacks, but it is not just the water works,
:23:57. > :24:01.it is taking action. There was an IpsosMORI poll this week which was
:24:02. > :24:06.varying testing. It showed the population as a whole, farmer people
:24:07. > :24:11.think that Yes Scotland is running an effective campaign as against
:24:12. > :24:19.Better Together. It is a undecided voters think this by a majority of
:24:20. > :24:23.four 21. Some people are worried about of the campaign. JK Rowling,
:24:24. > :24:29.Scotland's most successful author of all time. She gives ?1 million to
:24:30. > :24:33.the Better Together campaign. She then faces some of the most
:24:34. > :24:41.incredible abuse. I know what it is like because I have had some myself.
:24:42. > :24:46.Traitor, Quisling. I cannot use some of the words, it is Sunday morning.
:24:47. > :24:51.Why does Scottish Nationalists culture have such a revolting
:24:52. > :24:54.fringe? JK Rowling is entitled to our views and it is unacceptable if
:24:55. > :24:59.people say offensive things about her or anyone else who voices and
:25:00. > :25:03.opinion in this debate. Who are obese people? When you look at the
:25:04. > :25:07.accounts of some of the people who were posting these things about JK
:25:08. > :25:11.Rowling, they were using the same sort of language about film stars
:25:12. > :25:18.and football stars. This was just part of their language on Twitter.
:25:19. > :25:26.How often has Alex Salmond condemned the cyber nationalists? Very often.
:25:27. > :25:29.Everyone in the campaign hands. By common consent, Yes Scotland is
:25:30. > :25:35.running a thoroughly positive campaign, much more positive than
:25:36. > :25:40.Better Together. Jackie Baillie it hardly helps matters when Alistair
:25:41. > :25:43.Darling, who runs your campaign compares Alex Salmond to Kim Jong Il
:25:44. > :25:49.and North Korea. That hardly elevates the debate? I think we need
:25:50. > :25:56.to elevate the debate. There are less than a hundred days to go. It
:25:57. > :26:03.is a massive decision. We need to elevate the debate beyond attacks. I
:26:04. > :26:08.think there is much more that Yes Scotland and the SNP can do. You
:26:09. > :26:14.have made that point. Why are you running a campaign based on fear?
:26:15. > :26:21.The codename of your campaign is even project fear. It is threats.
:26:22. > :26:25.You cannot have the pound, there will be no shipbuilding. You will be
:26:26. > :26:31.flooded by immigrants. Why are you so negative? I am not negative at
:26:32. > :26:35.all and neither is the campaign The campaign has asked questions and I
:26:36. > :26:39.think it is legitimate to ask questions of the people proposing
:26:40. > :26:44.such a fundamental change. People care about the economy, their jobs,
:26:45. > :26:50.their families. What would happen to them if they leave the rest of the
:26:51. > :26:52.United Kingdom. I think it is legitimate to ask questions. I
:26:53. > :27:00.refuse to be asked of scaremongering. People deserve
:27:01. > :27:07.answers. The yes campaign is equally guilty of some of the most
:27:08. > :27:13.outrageous scaremongering. Maybe you are both scaremongering. Blair
:27:14. > :27:18.Jenkins, the First Minister said of the cyber nationalists, that they
:27:19. > :27:23.are just Daft folk, as if they were mischievous little children. It is
:27:24. > :27:29.worse than that. When you look at what they say, they are twisted
:27:30. > :27:33.perhaps even evil minds. I would not disagree with his comments, but they
:27:34. > :27:38.are directed at just a small number of people. The story of this
:27:39. > :27:43.campaign is not the story of what people are saying on Twitter. Around
:27:44. > :27:49.Scotland, lots of people are getting engaged in debate to have been tuned
:27:50. > :27:54.out of the political process. Today, we have 47% support for the yes
:27:55. > :27:58.campaign. The movement in the campaign is towards yes. People know
:27:59. > :28:05.we have a better campaign, a vision for Scotland. The latest poll of
:28:06. > :28:09.polls does not show that. Both sides, you always take the opinion
:28:10. > :28:14.polls that show you in the best light. All politicians do that.
:28:15. > :28:20.Jackie Baillie, your campaign is not just negative, it is patronising.
:28:21. > :28:26.You make dubious claims that Scots would be ?1400 better off by staying
:28:27. > :28:33.in the union, and then you say that the kids use the money to scoff 280
:28:34. > :28:36.hotdogs at the Edinburgh Festival. The fate of the nation is in your
:28:37. > :28:42.hands and that is the best you can do? I think you will find that the
:28:43. > :28:48.campaign is something that we are taking the message to people. Then
:28:49. > :28:56.why are you talking about hotdogs? I do not. The campaign did. We are
:28:57. > :28:59.taking a positive message to people across Scotland about the benefits
:29:00. > :29:04.of the United Kingdom. We believe we are stronger and more secure and
:29:05. > :29:08.more stable, being part of that family of nations that is the United
:29:09. > :29:13.Kingdom. At the same time, we have the strange and power over things
:29:14. > :29:19.like education and transport. I understand that. I am not doing the
:29:20. > :29:24.issues today, I am talking about the tone of the campaign. I have one
:29:25. > :29:31.very important question. Who would you supporting last night in the
:29:32. > :29:35.England-Italy match? I was not watching the game. I would be
:29:36. > :29:39.delighted to see England do well in this tournament. I have Argentina in
:29:40. > :29:43.the office sweepstake. I have to keep some attention on them, but I
:29:44. > :29:49.would be delighted to seeing Clint do well. That is because you think
:29:50. > :29:55.it will help your campaign. It will annoy the Scots. Jackie Baillie I
:29:56. > :30:01.was supporting England. I was also supporting Portugal.
:30:02. > :30:04.Now most of you probably missed last night's football match
:30:05. > :30:07.between England and Italy because you wanted to get an early night and
:30:08. > :30:11.England lost despite a plucky effort, I'm told.
:30:12. > :30:14.But even Westminster is in the grip of World Cup fever
:30:15. > :30:16.and with speculation about the fitness of each political
:30:17. > :30:23.party's team we sent Adam out to tackle some of the big players.
:30:24. > :30:26.Well, this is the closest I'll get to Rio.
:30:27. > :30:38.This year everybody seems to have gone a bit mad Belize, football
:30:39. > :30:45.stickers. Let's see who I will get. Oh, the suspense -- a bit mad for
:30:46. > :30:47.these. George Osborne? That is because we leapt on the bandwagon
:30:48. > :30:50.and made Alan political stickers. They're hotter than a Brazilian
:30:51. > :30:52.barbecue. And at Westminster they're
:30:53. > :31:01.turning into collector?s items. Sunday politics political stickers.
:31:02. > :31:06.We have one of you, Norman. Would you like it? Do you want to start
:31:07. > :31:06.collecting, Bob? Would you like a packet?
:31:07. > :31:14.collecting, Bob? Would you like a Thank you. No album, I'm afraid
:31:15. > :31:17.collecting, Bob? Would you like a Thank you. No album, I've got
:31:18. > :31:25.Michael Gove, next to to Reza, and two of the Prime Minister. -- next
:31:26. > :31:26.to Theresa. I am sure Michael has Theresa in her stick around, and
:31:27. > :31:28.vice versa. These Tory ones are proving very
:31:29. > :31:30.popular since she fell out with him out how
:31:31. > :31:33.to handle extremism in schools. And there's been open speculation
:31:34. > :31:36.about him taking on him in Then there are rumours of a
:31:37. > :31:47.reshuffle of the whole Tory album. Do you think there will be any
:31:48. > :31:56.swapping in the Tory leadership soon? Who knows? David Cameron has
:31:57. > :31:57.also got to replace the EU commissioner, Cathy Ashton, who is
:31:58. > :31:59.standing down. Does he go with the favourite
:32:00. > :32:01.the former health secretary Or the grassroots choice,
:32:02. > :32:04.Martin Callanan, the Tories old Or does he rehabilitate
:32:05. > :32:22.Andrew Mitchell after Plebgate? Do you fancy being European
:32:23. > :32:25.Commissioner? I would rather be spending the money on the world s
:32:26. > :32:27.poor and spending it well. Glad to hear it. Happy collecting.
:32:28. > :32:30.Right, there must be some Labour stickers out there.
:32:31. > :32:38.You don't want to swap Ed Balls any of the others? Can't I keep them
:32:39. > :32:39.all? This is almost the perfect team.
:32:40. > :32:42.There have been grumblings about the fitness of the Shadow
:32:43. > :32:46.And Ed Miliband's got a kicking in Liverpool after posing
:32:47. > :32:57.I'm told grown men are meeting up in pubs for sticker swaps -
:32:58. > :33:02.With Danny Finkelstein - Tory peer and Times columnist,
:33:03. > :33:14.He would be the card I would not want to trade. Do people want to
:33:15. > :33:18.trade him in? I don't think anybody wants to trade him in at the moment.
:33:19. > :33:21.He is the best person to lead the Labour party and will lead us into
:33:22. > :33:25.the next election. There's been a lot about Michael Gove, and he's
:33:26. > :33:27.very combative. That's been a huge strength as an education Secretary,
:33:28. > :33:32.despite the fact it's brought in trouble. I would think the prime
:33:33. > :33:35.minister would tell him not to get himself into peripheral battles at
:33:36. > :33:41.the moment but stick to what has been successful. I haven't got Nick
:33:42. > :33:47.Clegg, but I got me. Controversy amongst collectors of Lib Dems. I
:33:48. > :33:48.need to give away me in return for Nick Clegg. That would be far
:33:49. > :33:52.better. There you are. Some local parties are holding
:33:53. > :33:55.meetings about his leadership, but at one in Cambridge this week
:33:56. > :34:07.they voted to stick with him. You have got a Euro Commissioner.
:34:08. > :34:11.Why don't I swap, I will swap Ed Miliband for Tim Farren. Can I do
:34:12. > :34:14.that? What is the significance of that? Very significant. Happy
:34:15. > :34:17.collecting. These beauties are popping up
:34:18. > :34:20.everywhere, but sadly they won't Adam is still doing the samba around
:34:21. > :34:30.Westminster as I speak. I'm joined
:34:31. > :34:32.by three journalists who've been furiously swapping stickers
:34:33. > :34:34.throughout the show, they certainly weren't allowed to stay up to watch
:34:35. > :34:44.the football, it's Nick Watt, We will talk about Labour after the
:34:45. > :34:47.break, and I want to concentrate on the Tories, but the moment, Nick,
:34:48. > :34:56.senior Tories are saying privately that they might win next May. They
:34:57. > :35:01.are beginning to dream the dream. So why are they doing all this
:35:02. > :35:07.jockeying? I think the jockeying for the leadership is about a year old.
:35:08. > :35:13.What stoped it up was when Theresa gave a speech to the conference and
:35:14. > :35:17.people said she was doing it just in case, when things were not looking
:35:18. > :35:21.too good. She is not on manoeuvres. I think it was a policy row that
:35:22. > :35:25.drove the differences with Michael Gove. But Michael Gove is on
:35:26. > :35:28.manoeuvres, and he is trying to protect George Osborne from, he
:35:29. > :35:35.believes, a serious threat from Boris Johnson and possibly Theresa.
:35:36. > :35:38.It is quite self-indulgent when you are a couple of points behind, the
:35:39. > :35:48.economy is going your way, to be involved in this sort of stuff.
:35:49. > :35:54.Extraordinary. It shows the toxic disease that gnaws at the entrails
:35:55. > :35:56.of the Tory party, and Cameron is their great asset. He is more
:35:57. > :36:01.popular than the party, he bridges the gap is, and he has an
:36:02. > :36:05.extraordinary dissemble and some pretending to be this moderate while
:36:06. > :36:08.never the lens -- nevertheless leading the most far right wing
:36:09. > :36:12.government we have had since the war, and that has been a brilliant
:36:13. > :36:14.piece of political Charente and they would be crazy to get rid of it --
:36:15. > :36:17.political Charente. piece of political Charente and they
:36:18. > :36:22.would be crazy to get rid of it -- charades. Does this rumble on? I
:36:23. > :36:27.have an unfashionable view as there aren't half as many leadership plots
:36:28. > :36:30.taking place in Westminster as we assume, and the willingness to read
:36:31. > :36:34.strategic calculation into anything that takes place comes from people
:36:35. > :36:40.watching I Claudius or house of cards. That hasn't been off -- on
:36:41. > :36:47.for years. I needed a reference from your time. I needed something. Maybe
:36:48. > :36:51.brief encounter? It's a stylised view of how politics works, and so
:36:52. > :36:57.much more in life is about randomness and mistakes. Boris
:36:58. > :37:03.Johnson, Theresa May, Michael Gove as George Osborne's man on earth,
:37:04. > :37:06.they are positioning themselves -- Janan wrote an eloquent comment this
:37:07. > :37:12.week about this, but there are certain realities that. Michael Gove
:37:13. > :37:16.had that famous dinner with Rupert Murdoch a few weeks ago in which he
:37:17. > :37:21.said that you must not make Boris Johnson leader of the Conservative
:37:22. > :37:24.party, George Osborne is my man Theresa May set out her credo two
:37:25. > :37:28.years ago and people on her team were saying that she was doing it
:37:29. > :37:32.just in case. People are out there and are thinking of the future, but
:37:33. > :37:36.I do think Janan is right. In the village, in the thick of it mindset,
:37:37. > :37:46.you can get a bit carried away and you can be a bit in the famous. That
:37:47. > :37:52.is before your era. He died. What did he mean by it. You can get a bit
:37:53. > :37:55.carried away by it. I will have words with you during the break
:37:56. > :37:57.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:58. > :38:00.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:01. > :38:15.Hello, I'm Martyn Oates. be talking about Ed Miliband's
:38:16. > :38:18.Coming up on the Sunday Polhtics in the South West...
:38:19. > :38:22.As the summer season gets into full swing, our tourism business say they
:38:23. > :38:28.should have the VAT cut most of their competitors in Europe enjoy.
:38:29. > :38:30.And for the next 20 minutes I'm joined by Bill Stevens, Labour
:38:31. > :38:33.And from over the water Sheryll Murray, Conservativd MP
:38:34. > :38:39.Andrew George the Lib Dem MP for St Ives has just won the
:38:40. > :38:41.Private Members' Ballot in the House of Commons.
:38:42. > :38:43.That means he gets the parliamentary time to introduce
:38:44. > :38:49.He was recently identified as the most rebellious Lib Dem MP
:38:50. > :38:56.in the country so his choice could be interesting.
:38:57. > :38:59.You are an old hand at this because you have only been
:39:00. > :39:03.in the Commons for four years but in that time you have got to have
:39:04. > :39:10.The Marine Navigation Act and the Deep Sea Mining Act.
:39:11. > :39:12.To be quite honest, it is one opportunity
:39:13. > :39:17.We do everything that the minister does but you h`ve to do
:39:18. > :39:25.It really teaches you a lot about introducing legislation as well
:39:26. > :39:29.You have got a choice, you can do what you have done and choose
:39:30. > :39:32.something which has got a good chance of getting government backing
:39:33. > :39:35.or you could make a protest point, if you like, and choose somdthing
:39:36. > :39:39.that highlights an issue but has no chance of becoming a law.
:39:40. > :39:45.My other attempt was a ten minute rule Bill
:39:46. > :39:50.which was to introduce a bill to ban the keeping of primates as pets
:39:51. > :39:56.That ran out of parliamentary time unfortunately.
:39:57. > :39:59.Bill, if you were in the Colmons and in that happy position,
:40:00. > :40:07.I would take quite a strangd route and ask my constituents.
:40:08. > :40:11.The worst thing is politici`ns who claims to have
:40:12. > :40:17.I want to take soundings across what ever constituency I represented
:40:18. > :40:20.If you are asking me to plulp for something myself I would probably
:40:21. > :40:24.look to repeal the bedroom tax which is doing so much damage to so many
:40:25. > :40:33.Bill would have a hard job repealing somethhng that
:40:34. > :40:44.What about this issue of thd bill, choosing something which is
:40:45. > :40:47.important for you but quite judiciously which the government
:40:48. > :40:54.of the time could help you, or just making a protest pohnt.
:40:55. > :40:57.There's probably not a great deal that the government could hdlp me
:40:58. > :41:03.with that I would want to gdt onto the statute book myself.
:41:04. > :41:06.Happily those two avenues would coincide for me.
:41:07. > :41:09.I would want to make sure that it was something that benefited my
:41:10. > :41:14.Sadly, with the government that we have got at the moment,
:41:15. > :41:18.we are repeating things rather than bringing things forward.
:41:19. > :41:21.I completely disagree because Private Members Bill s very
:41:22. > :41:29.Neither of my bills were opposed by the opposition and gener`lly
:41:30. > :41:48.what you do, the first one for instance, saves money bdcause
:41:49. > :41:51.of the harbour directions and the pilot exemption certificates.
:41:52. > :41:54.The second one, the Deep Sea Mining act, is actually
:41:55. > :41:58.looking to the future and h`s the potential to bring up to ?30 billion
:41:59. > :42:02.If you are top of the ballot again, what would you have plumped for
:42:03. > :42:05.I would have definitely gond for the EU referendum.
:42:06. > :42:13.I was wondering whether you would say that.
:42:14. > :42:17.We need to trust in the British people, we are not saying in or out,
:42:18. > :42:23.Let us trust the people who elect us.
:42:24. > :42:25.I am sure that the work that Sheryl has done
:42:26. > :42:36.I am just sad that repealing the bedroom tax...
:42:37. > :42:39.We will leave the bedroom tax or spare room subsidy.
:42:40. > :42:44.We will talk about something that is undisputedly a tax.
:42:45. > :42:47.Pressure is growing on the Government to cut VAT
:42:48. > :42:48.for what's arguably the region's biggest industry.
:42:49. > :42:51.Almost every other country hn the EU gives tourism businesses a hefty
:42:52. > :43:00.Businesses and MPs in the South West say it?s high time
:43:01. > :43:13.Paul tries hand at this spot in West Devon.
:43:14. > :43:15.From Derbyshire, he would come more often
:43:16. > :43:20.We have two children so family holidays, again,
:43:21. > :43:23.price is very important so we would look to come in Britain mord often
:43:24. > :43:31.Paul stays in a hotel in this village near Okehampton
:43:32. > :43:41.It is a family business with all of the staff drawn from the area.
:43:42. > :43:45.The owner said he would like to employ more people
:43:46. > :43:49.if the business expanded and he thinks this could happen easily
:43:50. > :43:56.if the VAT on tourism was brought down to the European averagd of 5%.
:43:57. > :43:58.It will bring more people staying in hotel rooms, more people
:43:59. > :44:02.therefore eating in restaur`nts bars, in the West Country.
:44:03. > :44:06.Hopefully more overseas vishtors coming inbound, fewer of thd UK
:44:07. > :44:12.It would be very good news for our local economy.
:44:13. > :44:16.24 countries in the EU have taken advantage of special dispensation
:44:17. > :44:23.An early day motion calling for the UK to do the same h`s been
:44:24. > :44:31.lodged by MPs, including a member representing Clifton,
:44:32. > :44:33.lodged by MPs, including a member representing Lifton,
:44:34. > :44:36.An electric shock of aid, assistance and support to
:44:37. > :44:44.It is a vital industry for the south`west and that is why I
:44:45. > :44:45.am urging the government to take action.
:44:46. > :44:47.It is worth remembering that in 2011,
:44:48. > :44:52.the coalition increased VAT from 17.5% to 20%, a measure introduced
:44:53. > :45:04.Given that is still ?107 billion any cuts are unlikely.
:45:05. > :45:08.The case is made that over a 5`year period the sort
:45:09. > :45:14.In an environment where bal`ncing the budget
:45:15. > :45:17.in the short`term is desper`tely important, I think there will be
:45:18. > :45:38.And the Treasury was not biting in a statement it said, currently
:45:39. > :45:41.all taxes are under review, it does not have any plans to hntroduce
:45:42. > :45:44.The reason, a significant revenue shortfall
:45:45. > :45:49.Paul got lucky but the campaign to reduce VAT for
:45:50. > :46:07.You are a seem quite happy? Not at the current level. It is th`t
:46:08. > :46:11.increase in the four years of this increase in the four years of this
:46:12. > :46:17.government that has seen so much damage caused to the tools hndustry.
:46:18. > :46:23.In the city like Plymouth where I represent, we represent heavily on
:46:24. > :46:26.got something in the region of got something in the region of
:46:27. > :46:32.million visitors expected and growing. Support for the totrism
:46:33. > :46:37.industry is vital. If there's anything we can do to help hoteliers
:46:38. > :46:41.then that is fantastic. I would like to listen to what hoteliers and
:46:42. > :46:44.does industry are telling md. I do does industry are telling md. I do
:46:45. > :46:50.not think any of them would say no not think any of them would say no
:46:51. > :46:56.to being cut to 5%! Then I'l sure they will make a very powerful case.
:46:57. > :46:59.The public sector, private sector and voluntary sector in Plylouth
:47:00. > :47:10.working together is a great reformer. `` is the way forward
:47:11. > :47:15.Lord Harrison said in the ddbate that David Cameron did not get
:47:16. > :47:20.tourism. That tourism is solething that just happens. I think the Prime
:47:21. > :47:31.Minister does get to does. H think he recognises the recent impact of
:47:32. > :47:35.has come out again in a letter has come out again in a letter
:47:36. > :47:45.recently to see that he wants to speak to the council is to lake sure
:47:46. > :47:56.that money is coming through. On the VAT cut. I think Bill is wrong by
:47:57. > :48:01.trying to political point bx talking about the 2.5% increase. Have two
:48:02. > :48:06.compete on a level playing field with other countries to makd sure
:48:07. > :48:10.Having said that, it is the Having said that, it is the
:48:11. > :48:15.Chancellor that holds the bhg calculator. Any concessions that we
:48:16. > :48:17.give come at a price. The most important thing that we havd at the
:48:18. > :48:27.moment to help the tourism hndustry moment to help the tourism hndustry
:48:28. > :48:32.is the roads and the rail ndtwork. You are not one of the MPs hn the
:48:33. > :48:35.south`west that are repeatedly knocking on the Tunstall 's tour? I
:48:36. > :48:42.have been knocking on the Chancellor 's tour? I have been knocking on the
:48:43. > :48:45.I have written to him. I medt my tourist associations regularly. I
:48:46. > :48:50.will meet them again in a fortnight 's time. I am just pointing out that
:48:51. > :48:57.we have to recognise that there is only so much money. If we gdt things
:48:58. > :49:00.like this then they come at a cost. The argument for the industry in the
:49:01. > :49:08.from this. I hope `` I am hoping from this. I hope `` I am hoping
:49:09. > :49:12.that is something we can look to introduce in the very near future.
:49:13. > :49:17.Going back to the point abott growth in the economy. The Conserv`tives
:49:18. > :49:21.and Liberal Democrats say that we need to impose a package of
:49:22. > :49:28.measures, many of which painful including the BET includes, but with
:49:29. > :49:33.the view to time in the country around. Not for the people that I
:49:34. > :49:37.represent. There might be some people living in the wealthx
:49:38. > :49:45.south`east. David Cameron mhght feel the benefits in Oxfordshire. I am
:49:46. > :49:49.delighted for people who fund jobs recently. You might want to pay
:49:50. > :49:56.tribute to the thousand club that the Labour Party set up in Plymouth
:49:57. > :50:00.in 2012. To this generally hs higher up our agenda with people who cannot
:50:01. > :50:06.get your passport sorted out. However far the effect of this
:50:07. > :50:12.trickling down, the economy appears to be going in the right direction.
:50:13. > :50:16.Very slowly and not enough for the people who have suffered because of
:50:17. > :50:21.what George Osborne and Davhd Cameron have been doing. If you
:50:22. > :50:25.stuck to your original economic policy, the one that you went into
:50:26. > :50:30.the general election with, things would be better economicallx? I
:50:31. > :50:34.would not have cut by any mdasure compared to what we have sedn. You
:50:35. > :50:37.and we would have continued on that and we would have continued on that
:50:38. > :50:46.downward spiral that your government left as an in 2010. Let us face it,
:50:47. > :50:49.I am not saying that the money has run out, but you will still pursue
:50:50. > :50:54.that policy. Where would yot get that policy. Where would yot get
:50:55. > :50:58.that money to spend? I do not think people who have seen the services
:50:59. > :51:06.cut in social services, NHS, pensions or benefits, the bddroom
:51:07. > :51:12.tax. How would you pay for ht? There was no money, you left us whth no
:51:13. > :51:16.money. I do not think that `nybody who sees the money sloshing around
:51:17. > :51:24.in the City of London, the bankers bonuses, George Osborne acttally
:51:25. > :51:32.went over to Europe. Your p`rty spent tenfold. Come out with some
:51:33. > :51:38.positive, realistic answers. I do not think that cutting so m`ny
:51:39. > :51:50.essential services. What is your attentive? Ed balls was not
:51:51. > :51:56.Chancellor of the Exchequer in 010. He was Education Secretary. It
:51:57. > :51:59.always seems to be Conservative message that incoming Labour
:52:00. > :52:10.government have to pick up. We had that after we were bankrupt after
:52:11. > :52:13.the war in 1945 and in 1964. Bill touched on the EU. The Consdrvative
:52:14. > :52:26.peer Lord Caithness said th`t mortals are an anathema to tourists.
:52:27. > :52:29.If we withdraw from the EU, that will not be helpful for people who
:52:30. > :52:35.like to come to the EU and then want to travel to Britain. The whthdrawal
:52:36. > :52:41.from the EU, I have already touched on it, let the British people make
:52:42. > :52:45.up their mind. Are you inclhned towards withdrawal? My position is
:52:46. > :52:50.very clear and I do not think we should be in things like colmon
:52:51. > :52:54.policies, like the Common fhsheries policy. My own personal view is that
:52:55. > :53:01.Europe should do less and do it better. With climate change, we do
:53:02. > :53:06.have to speak to them. I voted in favour of EU membership in 0974 We
:53:07. > :53:11.have to withdraw from this debate. The South West has long been at the
:53:12. > :53:14.forefront of a campaign to hmprove This week
:53:15. > :53:18.an influential committee of MPs said urgent action was needed but stopped
:53:19. > :53:21.short of recommending the b`n on keeping monkeys as pets which
:53:22. > :53:23.people like Sheryll want to see We'll hear more from her after
:53:24. > :53:26.this report from Tamsin Melville. Life is good for Joey,
:53:27. > :53:28.the capuchin monkey. Here we have got Joey who is
:53:29. > :53:32.a monkey who was kept for nine years in an enclostre
:53:33. > :53:35.the size of a wardrobe. Because of a lack of space,
:53:36. > :53:38.exercise, appropriate diet, his bones did not develop properly so he
:53:39. > :53:40.is now suffering from bone disease. When he arrived he was rockhng
:53:41. > :53:43.pretty much the whole time. This monkey
:53:44. > :53:46.behind me is a capuchin who is one of 28 at this monkey sanctu`ry here
:53:47. > :53:49.in South East Cornwall. He has been rescued
:53:50. > :53:51.from the pet trade. The monkey?s enclosures werd
:53:52. > :53:55.dilapidated and had been This monkey
:53:56. > :53:57.behind me is a capuchin who is one of 28 at this monkey sanctu`ry here
:53:58. > :54:00.in South East Cornwall. He has been rescued
:54:01. > :54:02.from the pet trade. The monkey?s enclosures werd
:54:03. > :54:04.dilapidated and had been This campaign video shows the rescue
:54:05. > :54:09.from a private home in Essex. The problem for campaigners is that
:54:10. > :54:11.keeping monkeys such as Grips and They are relatively easy to get
:54:12. > :54:18.on the Internet and you do not need a licence to buy,
:54:19. > :54:21.sell or breed the smaller species. Nobody knows how many monkexs
:54:22. > :54:26.are being kept in British homes Wild Futures estimates up to 50 0,
:54:27. > :54:29.sometimes even more. The Environment Select Commhttee
:54:30. > :54:33.this week called for a tightening Urgent government research
:54:34. > :54:38.into the true numbers before any decision on a total ban
:54:39. > :54:41.on keeping primates is made. There could be ten or 5000
:54:42. > :54:49.primates in the trade. There are still individuals
:54:50. > :54:51.suffering on the ground and that is why we are asking
:54:52. > :54:55.for a ban in the UK pet trade. Experts say that even with
:54:56. > :54:58.the best intentions, primatds are In autumn 2011,
:54:59. > :55:04.we filmed marmosets who werd being At the time
:55:05. > :55:09.the owner insisted they werd happy. I do not think I am
:55:10. > :55:14.doing anything wrong. I feel like I am a custodian
:55:15. > :55:18.of these for the future gendration. I am just grateful that thex trust
:55:19. > :55:21.me enough to share my space. Following
:55:22. > :55:25.a RSPCA investigation he was taken to court under animal welfare laws,
:55:26. > :55:28.found guilty of neglect and banned Although this was a success,
:55:29. > :55:34.the charity says that the current code of practicd and
:55:35. > :55:38.licensing system is not working There are huge problems with
:55:39. > :55:40.noncompliance and lack And people who are applying
:55:41. > :55:45.the current law not knowing what they are doing in terms
:55:46. > :55:48.of primate welfare. We don't think that will be
:55:49. > :55:51.solved by the system that The MPs want the standards for
:55:52. > :55:58.primates in private homes to match There are big enclosures and
:55:59. > :56:02.monkeys are kept in family groups. They also want anybody keephng
:56:03. > :56:05.a monkey to sign up to a register. Are people going to give thdm
:56:06. > :56:08.that information and if thex are They have to be pretty strong with
:56:09. > :56:13.this to make sure that they get We do need research
:56:14. > :56:33.in finding out how these anhmals are The select committee has not ruled
:56:34. > :56:37.out recommending a full ban in the future
:56:38. > :56:40.but is asking the government to do the research and report back with
:56:41. > :56:43.a plan of action within six months. Ministers say that existing
:56:44. > :56:54.legislation is adequate. Prosecutions can be successfully
:56:55. > :57:01.brought. Is it a case of iddntifying well peer irregularities? Wd have to
:57:02. > :57:06.find out where these primatds are being kept and that is the whole
:57:07. > :57:10.period to get people to reghster so period to get people to reghster so
:57:11. > :57:16.we know exactly how many thdre are. We can ensure that inspections are
:57:17. > :57:22.carried out as necessary. Are you happy with this report? I think it
:57:23. > :57:26.is a staged process. It is no good introducing a ban immediately
:57:27. > :57:32.because my fear is that it would push people who are keeping primates
:57:33. > :57:37.in numbers, in backyards, in the open, in good surroundings, it may
:57:38. > :57:42.push them to put them in sm`ll cages in the back bedroom of a hotse, on
:57:43. > :57:47.their own. It could `` it could cause more suffering to the
:57:48. > :57:54.primates. We have to find ott where they are. Local authorities must be
:57:55. > :57:59.made to use primates specialists for inspections. Animal welfare officers
:58:00. > :58:00.do not have the knowledge. H do not think that it will ultimately
:58:01. > :58:06.and I think we will looking towards and I think we will looking towards
:58:07. > :58:14.a ban. Bill is very much in local government. What is your vidw? To
:58:15. > :58:22.animals has to be paramount in all animals has to be paramount in all
:58:23. > :58:26.of this. We have seen in other parts of the country just hope of
:58:27. > :58:31.endangered species have been treated in appalling conditions. Thd welfare
:58:32. > :58:34.of the animals in question has to be absolutely paramount when you
:58:35. > :58:41.consider anything in relation to this. A lot of what Cheryl says is
:58:42. > :58:45.right. If you come down heavy`handed, it drives people
:58:46. > :58:49.difficult to solve. The problem is a difficult to solve. The problem is a
:58:50. > :58:54.lot harder to identify and deal with. If you come down to softly,
:58:55. > :58:57.the danger is the problem does not get solved. I would favour `
:58:58. > :59:06.register and proper licensing. Now our regular round`up
:59:07. > :59:09.of the political week in thd 28 of Devon's Community Hospitals
:59:10. > :59:15.face the possible closure of inpatient beds to fund more care
:59:16. > :59:25.at home and save NHS financds. If you only have so much resources
:59:26. > :59:28.then decisions have to be m`de as to whether you put those resources
:59:29. > :59:48.into this area on a different area. A Taunton coroner is considdring
:59:49. > :59:50.making representations to the Government for tighter legislation
:59:51. > :59:53.of the fireworks industry after the Relatives say someone
:59:54. > :59:56.should be held to account. It is not cost`effective
:59:57. > :00:01.for them to ensure that thex monitor their training,
:00:02. > :00:02.that the monitor any displaxs. Britain's first new metal mhne
:00:03. > :00:05.for 40 years is taking shapd at Hemerdon on the edge of Dartmoor,
:00:06. > :00:09.it will provide around 200 jobs and The overwhelming opinion from
:00:10. > :00:11.local people is that we want this investment, we wanted these jobs and
:00:12. > :00:14.it is massive support for what we The Southwest mourns the de`th
:00:15. > :00:18.of one of its most popular politicians after
:00:19. > :00:20.the death this week of Rik Layal, famous, amongst other things, for
:00:21. > :00:32.his portrayal of Alan B'stard MP. The MPN that CDs change in being a
:00:33. > :00:44.Labour politician to a consdrvative one. Will you be likely to defect?
:00:45. > :00:48.`` the MPN that CDs. When the actor was protruding that charactdr all
:00:49. > :00:51.those years ago, we saw a lot of people moving over from the
:00:52. > :00:56.Conservatives to labour so H guess that'll be taking place quite soon.
:00:57. > :01:03.You tempted to cross the floor of the house? Certainly not.
:01:04. > :01:12.That's the Sunday Politics in the South West.
:01:13. > :01:15.There are big changes afoot in the EU following last month's
:01:16. > :01:17.European elections, not least who'll get the top job
:01:18. > :01:21.But behind the scenes the parties have
:01:22. > :01:24.also been jockeying for position as they try to form the big groups that
:01:25. > :01:29.And UKIP seems to have been struggling to keep its influence
:01:30. > :01:37.Here's Adam to explain how it all works.
:01:38. > :01:43.If you want your party to be a big cheese in the European Parliament,
:01:44. > :01:48.you need to form a political group. By doing this, the party gets more
:01:49. > :01:53.money, more positions on committees and even more speaking rights in the
:01:54. > :01:59.chamber. But the parliament's rules are strict. And to form a group you
:02:00. > :02:02.need a group of 25 MPs from at least seven different countries. For UKIP,
:02:03. > :02:08.the number of MEPs will not be a problem because they already have 24
:02:09. > :02:10.of their own, but the different nationalities are more of a
:02:11. > :02:14.challenge. Nigel Farage was not helped by the Tories stealing -
:02:15. > :02:23.stealing his former Danish and Finnish allies, and the pen pinching
:02:24. > :02:28.his Italian charms. Nigel needs a new charm and fast. He has already
:02:29. > :02:34.signed up Lithuania's order and justice, a free citizen from Prague,
:02:35. > :02:41.and the Dutchman from the reformed political party. The big signing was
:02:42. > :02:45.the 17 members of the Italian Beppe Griego's 5-star movement, but it
:02:46. > :02:48.leaves UKIP short of two more international powers, and with the
:02:49. > :02:52.clock ticking, it looks like his hopes resting on the Swedish
:02:53. > :02:54.Democrats and the Polish new right Congress. They both make their
:02:55. > :03:05.decisions next week. What is the latest? UKIP have enough
:03:06. > :03:10.MEPs with their pals, but they need seven countries, as I understand it.
:03:11. > :03:13.They are not there yet. They are wrapped five countries and need
:03:14. > :03:17.another two. UKIP are being quite buoyant and say they will be meeting
:03:18. > :03:21.MEPs from five countries next week and are pretty confident they will
:03:22. > :03:25.get those countries, but as Adam was saying, the problem UKIP have had is
:03:26. > :03:34.that the Conservatives have nicked two of the parties. That is why they
:03:35. > :03:39.have been struggling, but they say they are confident they will do it.
:03:40. > :03:44.Meanwhile, the Tories new best friends are the German Eurosceptic
:03:45. > :03:47.party, which has put Mrs Merkel s nose out of joint, but we don't
:03:48. > :03:54.quite know whether she really cares or not. I think Cameron has played
:03:55. > :04:03.his hand badly since he committed to pulling out of the EBP. And he
:04:04. > :04:08.should be in there with Angela Merkel and if he needs to make a
:04:09. > :04:14.major renegotiation, he needs to have the Germans onside. Instead
:04:15. > :04:18.there is a breakaway party and its like supporting UKIP. His party are
:04:19. > :04:24.supporting her worst enemy. It certainly causing him a lot of
:04:25. > :04:28.problems, and undermines his negotiating position, but isn't
:04:29. > :04:32.there an honesty that the centre-right group is explicitly
:04:33. > :04:37.Federalist, and the Tories are anything but, so they came out, and
:04:38. > :04:43.Labour are in the Socialist group, which is explicitly Federalist, and
:04:44. > :04:46.they are not Federalist either. If you want support and influence in
:04:47. > :04:50.Europe, you have to trade, and he hasn't done this well. The whole
:04:51. > :04:55.business with who will be the next president, he needs Angela Merkel's
:04:56. > :05:00.support. Without that, it won't happen. He should have been trading
:05:01. > :05:07.behind-the-scenes, but he has exposed himself in public, and if he
:05:08. > :05:11.doesn't win it looks uncertain, and he will be in a position where he
:05:12. > :05:14.has to go back to his own party and say they are not getting anywhere.
:05:15. > :05:21.That is dangerous and takes us closer to the Exeter, which I don't
:05:22. > :05:26.think would want. The danger for Mr Cameron is if it is the president of
:05:27. > :05:29.the commission, he will save you cannot stop a federalist becoming
:05:30. > :05:32.head of the European commission what chance do you have of
:05:33. > :05:40.repatriating lots of powers back to London. There are lots of Tory MPs
:05:41. > :05:45.dying to make the argument. My hunch is that he won't make it. There are
:05:46. > :05:47.too many countries opposed to his presidency and even the country
:05:48. > :05:53.notionally in favour of it, Germany, is failing in youth -- enthusiasm.
:05:54. > :05:59.Angela Merkel cannot be seen to give in to the Brits this. Her own side
:06:00. > :06:07.once it as well, though some reason the German media says it. When she
:06:08. > :06:12.tried to reach out and said to look at the other candidates, she got
:06:13. > :06:18.such abuse on the right wing press from her own country and party she
:06:19. > :06:27.had to retreat. Janan is right that there is opposition to Juncker, but
:06:28. > :06:31.as long as Cameron turns it into an argument about Britain and Europe,
:06:32. > :06:38.he will strengthen the hand of Juncker. Angela Merkel thinks
:06:39. > :06:41.Juncker is inappropriate. She did not like the process, which was a
:06:42. > :06:44.power grab by the European Parliament, but when David Cameron
:06:45. > :06:49.went to the council and said that if I don't get my way, we could leave
:06:50. > :06:56.the EU, that led to the backlash, most significantly from the SPD in
:06:57. > :07:00.Germany. As Tony Blair says, if only David Cameron had made the argument
:07:01. > :07:02.that Juncker is bad for Europe, then he would have found his natural
:07:03. > :07:07.allies would have felt more comfortable following behind. Enough
:07:08. > :07:16.Europe. I want to show you a picture. See what you think of this.
:07:17. > :07:22.When I saw that picture, I thought it was so ludicrous that it had to
:07:23. > :07:26.have been photo shop. Discuss. He is holding it with a certain disdain,
:07:27. > :07:31.looking a bit hangdog. A disastrous picture for Ed Miliband. His
:07:32. > :07:37.strength is authenticity, sincerity and cleverness. And he blows all of
:07:38. > :07:42.that. He was the one who took on Murdoch, very bravely and
:07:43. > :07:47.dangerously, and one, really. Now there he is supporting Murdoch's
:07:48. > :07:50.son. It's a big mistake, not just in Liverpool, where obviously they are
:07:51. > :07:56.particularly incensed. And then he apologises. Sort of apologises and
:07:57. > :08:02.understands why Liverpool feels upset. But it is a fundamental error
:08:03. > :08:05.and I hope he learns from this, that he must absolutely stay true to
:08:06. > :08:12.himself. That's all he's got going for him. Who do we blame? His
:08:13. > :08:21.advisers or himself? In the end himself. Nobody forced him to do it.
:08:22. > :08:29.On this one, he called it wrong It's a sign of the rather the bridal
:08:30. > :08:32.state of the Labour Party is that his candidates were vocal in
:08:33. > :08:39.attacking him doing this. It's a sign of how readable Ed Miliband is
:08:40. > :08:45.at Parliamentary level. I don't think you should have apologised.
:08:46. > :08:54.The mistake he made was associating himself with that newspaper. The
:08:55. > :08:59.mistake was the prior three years when he went too far as portraying
:09:00. > :09:01.the Murdoch empire beyond the pale. He made a case against phone hacking
:09:02. > :09:07.and offences in that regard without going as far as he did with the
:09:08. > :09:11.rhetoric. To do that, and then pose with the Sun newspaper, the
:09:12. > :09:17.juxtaposition is what did for him, not the mere fact of posing with it.
:09:18. > :09:19.Maybe he did not know what he was doing because we were told he
:09:20. > :09:22.doesn't read the British newspapers. It was football, and he
:09:23. > :09:29.has posed with the Sun newspaper before. Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg
:09:30. > :09:33.posed as well. But with the Sun newspaper and football, you tread
:09:34. > :09:36.carefully. That was the mistake You get the impression from the picture
:09:37. > :09:39.that he looks so uncomfortable that you wonder whether there was a full
:09:40. > :09:44.process of consultation that went on within his media operation, within
:09:45. > :09:47.his political operation. Was he fully aware of what would happen
:09:48. > :09:50.question what he looks so incredibly uncomfortable. But at the end of the
:09:51. > :09:56.day, leaders have to take responsibility. It is cultural as
:09:57. > :10:00.well. That picture says, I am down there with the football blokes and
:10:01. > :10:04.you think, you are not. That is not what people will vote for. Be
:10:05. > :10:08.yourself and don't pretend to be something else because it never
:10:09. > :10:14.works. But the polls suggest that the British voters don't yet see Ed
:10:15. > :10:17.Miliband as prime ministerial. The worst thing you can then do is get
:10:18. > :10:22.involved in stunts that are more likely to reinforce that idea than
:10:23. > :10:25.counter it. There was a precedent for it in the last parliament which
:10:26. > :10:31.was Gordon Brown's attempts to feign a populist touch. He did it by
:10:32. > :10:38.telling the contents of his iPod. The Arctic monkeys. It always jarred
:10:39. > :10:41.because he was trying too hard. Not uniquely guilty of, Ed Miliband all
:10:42. > :10:46.the other leaders have done it. At the moment he more vulnerable. Yes,
:10:47. > :10:51.and he is less popular than his party. Labour has quite a popular
:10:52. > :10:55.brand, in a resilient way, in a way they don't with the Tories, yet
:10:56. > :11:00.their leader is a personal problem. The pressure is on him to do stunts
:11:01. > :11:05.like this. Will there be a shadow cabinet reshuffle? Yes, we have to
:11:06. > :11:07.get the cabinet reshuffle out of the way first, and that might come next
:11:08. > :11:11.week, maybe by the time of the summer recess, but the first thing
:11:12. > :11:17.that the prime Minister do is work out who is the UK candidate for the
:11:18. > :11:21.European Commissioner. Is it not the case probably that Ed Balls is
:11:22. > :11:26.becoming semi-detached from the Ed Miliband project? I don't think
:11:27. > :11:30.entirely. Nothing gets agreed without both of the end are green.
:11:31. > :11:35.Ed Balls is controversial. He has great pluses and minuses and is a
:11:36. > :11:39.big figure. Labour doesn't have that many big figures. It's quite hard to
:11:40. > :11:42.think who would be a heavy hitter as a possible Chancellor. He is a
:11:43. > :11:50.convincing chancellor to the future, Love him. He has the heft -- love
:11:51. > :11:54.him or hate him. Any possibility Ed Balls could be moved as shadow
:11:55. > :11:57.chancellor? The timing is convenient because the Scottish referendum ends
:11:58. > :12:02.in the autumn and Alistair Darling becomes a free man, win or lose I
:12:03. > :12:05.don't think Ed Balls will be removed because moving him would be an
:12:06. > :12:07.admission that everything the Labour Party said about the economy to the
:12:08. > :12:11.preceding four years has been a mistake. And you can't do that nine
:12:12. > :12:16.months before a general election. You invite ridicule. But relations
:12:17. > :12:20.between Ed Miliband and Ed Balls are not great at the moment. The Ed
:12:21. > :12:23.Miliband team are very, very suspicious of this new love in
:12:24. > :12:29.between Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson. Mandelson likes to say
:12:30. > :12:32.that he spotted the Ed Balls talents in the original place and appointed
:12:33. > :12:37.him to the Gordon Brown team after the disaster of 1992. But things
:12:38. > :12:43.obviously went awry, and now Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson Avenue
:12:44. > :12:48.Rappaport, and that is with enormous suspicion -- they have a new
:12:49. > :12:51.Rappaport. With good reason because it's about policy. It's about the
:12:52. > :12:56.attitude towards business. Should they be out there saying they will
:12:57. > :13:01.get the tax dodgers, Starbucks, Vodafone, are we going to take on
:13:02. > :13:04.business in a big way? In a way that Ed Miliband has quite bravely said.
:13:05. > :13:09.On the other hand, Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson are saying, hang on,
:13:10. > :13:10.we only won in 1997 by being business friendly. Sorry to rush
:13:11. > :13:13.you. We are running out of time The Daily Politics will be back
:13:14. > :13:17.every day this week at midday, and I'll be back here next Sunday
:13:18. > :13:19.when I'll be joined by the shadow work and pensions
:13:20. > :13:21.secretary Rachel Reeves.Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:22. > :13:53.it's the Sunday Politics. Magnificent. The power base
:13:54. > :13:59.of medieval England. Charles' ceiling was a piece
:14:00. > :14:05.of breathtaking arrogance. You get a sense of the people
:14:06. > :14:13.who made the palaces. as I unlock the secrets
:14:14. > :14:17.of Britain's great palaces.