:00:35. > :00:40.Up to a million public sector workers will strike this week.
:00:41. > :00:43.It's one of the biggest walk-outs since 201 .
:00:44. > :00:46.The country's top trade unionist Frances O'Grady and
:00:47. > :00:51.Tory Business Minister Matt Hancock go head-to-head.
:00:52. > :00:54.The Tour de France seems to have cheered him up - just as well
:00:55. > :00:58.for the Deputy Prime Minister hasn't got much else to smile about.
:00:59. > :01:01.Nick Clegg joins me live from Sheffield to discuss the
:01:02. > :01:07.Just over ten weeks until Scotland determines its future.
:01:08. > :01:10.The man leading the campaign AGAINST independence, Alistair Darling,
:01:11. > :01:18.And in the south`west, the Prime Minister admits aspect
:01:19. > :01:21.of the region's train services are like something out of The R`ilway
:01:22. > :01:31.Children, but is he doing enough to drag them into the present?
:01:32. > :01:34.And with me throughout the show three top-flight political
:01:35. > :01:37.journalists always ahead of the peleton - Nick Watt,
:01:38. > :01:52.They'll be tweeting faster than Tour de France cyclists can pedal.
:01:53. > :01:54.The news is dominated this morning by stories swirling
:01:55. > :01:57.around allegations of an historic Westminster paedophile ring.
:01:58. > :02:00.Concern has grown because of the disappearance of a dossier
:02:01. > :02:02.handed over to the Home Office in 1983, along with over 100 official
:02:03. > :02:04.files related to it and possibly containing details of historic child
:02:05. > :02:09.Labour is calling for a public inquiry led by a child protection
:02:10. > :02:15.But speaking earlier on The Andrew Marr Show this morning
:02:16. > :02:20.the Education Secretary Michael Gove ruled that out.
:02:21. > :02:26.The most important thing that we need to do is ensure that the due
:02:27. > :02:30.process of law pursues those who may be guilty of individual crimes and
:02:31. > :02:34.we also learn lessons about what may or may not have gone wrong in the
:02:35. > :02:37.past, but it is also important to emphasise that many of the
:02:38. > :02:42.allegations that are being made are historic. And what we do now in
:02:43. > :02:46.order to keep children safer is better and stronger than was the
:02:47. > :02:50.case when 20 or 30 years ago. Without getting into a boring
:02:51. > :02:55.tit-for-tat, public inquiry, "yes" or "no"? No. Helen, can the
:02:56. > :02:59.Government go on resisting calls for a full-scale inquiry? It is very
:03:00. > :03:03.hard. There are cynical and non-cynical reasons for calling for
:03:04. > :03:07.an inquiry. The cynical one allows you to say I can't comment on this.
:03:08. > :03:12.The non-cynical is it manages to get people to air allegations in a way
:03:13. > :03:15.that is safe. What we saw at the Leveson Inquiry was helpful, people
:03:16. > :03:19.who felt they had been shut out from justice getting a chance to tell
:03:20. > :03:23.their side of the story. A public inquiry in this case is a good idea.
:03:24. > :03:28.Labour have called for a lot of public inquiries. A list was made in
:03:29. > :03:34.2012 of how many they called for. Not only Savile, but the West Coast
:03:35. > :03:37.Main Line and breast implants. On this particular issue, the people
:03:38. > :03:40.don't trust the politicians, they don't trust the police either
:03:41. > :03:45.because they may have been complicit in a cover-up. They may not trust
:03:46. > :03:49.the Home Office who we are told some of their officials were mentioned in
:03:50. > :03:54.the dossier? That is what David Cameron is hanging on to. This is a
:03:55. > :03:57.matter now because they are alleged criminal activity, it is for the
:03:58. > :04:03.police to investigate. In that big piece in the Sunday Times, Tim
:04:04. > :04:03.Shipman reports one of the people making the allegations lives in the
:04:04. > :04:07.United States making the allegations lives in the
:04:08. > :04:09.been out to the United States to interview him. The Prime Minister
:04:10. > :04:10.would say that is how serious the police are taking it. The problem
:04:11. > :04:16.for the Prime Minister - he police are taking it. The problem
:04:17. > :04:20.allergic to big public inquiry. His finest moment was his response to
:04:21. > :04:21.the Bloody Sunday inquiry shortly after he became Prime
:04:22. > :04:35.inrequest -- that inquiry took 2 years to report. The problem is the
:04:36. > :04:41.dossier has gone missing, the files have gone missing, more allegations
:04:42. > :04:43.keep coming out either directly or indirectly. It doesn't look like it
:04:44. > :04:50.is going to go away? The fact the dossiers are missing means it is
:04:51. > :04:54.inappropriate for the Home Office to be investigating this. There is
:04:55. > :04:55.inappropriate for the Home Office to a police investigation. If after
:04:56. > :05:02.that, there are questions unanswered which can only be answered by
:05:03. > :05:03.that, there are questions unanswered public inquiry, or which require
:05:04. > :05:05.resources that can only be commanded by a public inquiry, I could see the
:05:06. > :05:12.case for going down that road. I fear that sometimes in this country
:05:13. > :05:16.we invest almost supernatural powers in what a public inquiry can do I
:05:17. > :05:20.wonder whether there is another example of a country that goes
:05:21. > :05:24.through this stale ritual every few years of a scandal emerging, the
:05:25. > :05:27.opposition calling for an inquiry, the Government saying no and then
:05:28. > :05:31.holding the line or giving in. I don't know what we think this
:05:32. > :05:36.inquiries can do. It comes back to your point, Helen, you should be
:05:37. > :05:42.careful what you call an inquiry on so it doesn't devalue the concept.
:05:43. > :05:44.On Thursday up to a million public sector workers - including teachers,
:05:45. > :05:46.firemen and council workers - will go on strike.
:05:47. > :05:48.Their unions have differing gripes but the fact they're all striking
:05:49. > :05:51.on the same day is designed to send a strong message to the government.
:05:52. > :05:53.As the economy picks up again they're demanding an end
:05:54. > :05:59.Growth has returned strongly to the UK economy
:06:00. > :06:02.and unemployment is at its lowest level for more than five years.
:06:03. > :06:05.So why is there still talk of austerity
:06:06. > :06:10.The deficit is coming down but much more slowly than the government
:06:11. > :06:17.And accumulated deficits - the national debt -
:06:18. > :06:26.The UK is now in hock to the tune of ?1.3 trillion - and rising.
:06:27. > :06:29.In fact, we're only 40% of the way through George Osborne's planned
:06:30. > :06:32.austerity, with the chancellor now saying he won't manage to balance
:06:33. > :06:38.Unions are now rebelling against tight pay controls.
:06:39. > :06:42.Since 2010, average public sector pay, which goes to about 1 in 5
:06:43. > :06:49.Over the same period, prices increased by 16% -
:06:50. > :06:53.meaning the average public sector worker saw their pay squeezed
:06:54. > :07:01.Going head-to-head on the public sector strikes and austerity -
:07:02. > :07:04.the general secretary of the TUC Frances O'Grady, and Conservative
:07:05. > :07:23.We have seen it, public sector pay squeezed by 9% under the Coalition
:07:24. > :07:29.Government. Isn't it time to take your foot off the brake a bit? I
:07:30. > :07:34.don't think it is the right time to let go of the public finances at
:07:35. > :07:38.all. We were always clear that this is what's called a structural
:07:39. > :07:43.deficit, it doesn't go away just because the growth is returning and
:07:44. > :07:47.the economy is coming back. We have protected and are protecting the
:07:48. > :07:54.lowest paid public sector workers who weren't part of the pay freeze
:07:55. > :07:58.and now pay going up by 1%. These are difficult decisions. We have had
:07:59. > :08:04.that discussion many times. They are necessary in order to keep that plan
:08:05. > :08:07.on track and as we can see in the wider economy, it is working.
:08:08. > :08:12.People's living standards will have to continue to fall if you are in
:08:13. > :08:16.the public sector? We need to keep public spending under control and
:08:17. > :08:20.pay restraint is one of the main ways of being able... The answer is
:08:21. > :08:23.yes? The answer is this is necessary. The answer is yes, this
:08:24. > :08:26.is necessary. It isn't because we want to. We have to. This strike
:08:27. > :08:29.isn't going to change the Government's mind, is it? It does
:08:30. > :08:32.seem like the Government isn't listening. We have had years... They
:08:33. > :08:36.are listening, they just don't agree. Ordinary people, including
:08:37. > :08:40.those in the public sector, are finding it really tough. What really
:08:41. > :08:45.sticks in the throat is the idea that money can be found to give tax
:08:46. > :08:51.cuts to billionaires, to millionaires and to big
:08:52. > :08:57.corporations. But it can't be found to help 500,000 workers in local
:08:58. > :09:00.government, dinner ladies, school meal workers, lollipop men and women
:09:01. > :09:04.who are earning less than the living wage. What do you say to that? We
:09:05. > :09:07.have protected those who are the least well-paid in the public
:09:08. > :09:12.sector. But this is about a long-term... How can you? Hold on.
:09:13. > :09:16.You have said you have protected them. This involves ordinary people,
:09:17. > :09:24.many watching this programme, they have had a 1% pay rise in some cases
:09:25. > :09:29.since 2010. The average gas bill is up 57%, electric bill up 22%, food
:09:30. > :09:35.costs up 16%, running a car 11% in what way have you protected people
:09:36. > :09:40.from spending they have to make Firstly, you read out the average
:09:41. > :09:43.increases in public sector pay. That has had the biggest impact at the
:09:44. > :09:49.top end and those at the bottom end have been best protected, as best we
:09:50. > :09:52.could. Of course, we have also taken two million people out of income tax
:09:53. > :09:56.and increased the income tax threshold which has a big positive
:09:57. > :10:01.impact. We have frozen and then cut fuel duty, which would have been 20
:10:02. > :10:05.pence higher. I wanted to take on this point about priorities. We have
:10:06. > :10:10.got to make sure that we get the economy going at the same time and
:10:11. > :10:15.we raised more money from those at the top than we did before 2010
:10:16. > :10:19.partly because we have encouraged them to invest. And this is a really
:10:20. > :10:25.important balance of making sure we get the books back in order, we have
:10:26. > :10:29.stability for family finances and we get the economy going. Why not
:10:30. > :10:33.spread the living wage? We know you could pay for that pay increase
:10:34. > :10:37.itself if you spread the living wage through the private sector and
:10:38. > :10:43.guarantee... The living wage being above the minimum wage? Absolutely.
:10:44. > :10:51.?7.65 in the rest of the country, ?8.80 in London. What is the answer?
:10:52. > :10:59.I'm a fan of the minimum wage. But not for public sector workers. Being
:11:00. > :11:02.able to pay low-paid workers as much as possible within the constraints
:11:03. > :11:05.of the public finances is something I have pushed very hard. The
:11:06. > :11:10.evidence we can increase the minimum wage has to be balanced which the
:11:11. > :11:18.Low Pay Commission do with the impact on the number of jobs... Even
:11:19. > :11:23.after a pay freeze for quite a while among public sector workers, they
:11:24. > :11:31.are still paid 15% on average more than those in the private sector?
:11:32. > :11:36.That is not true. It is, according to the ONS figures. I read that
:11:37. > :11:39.report this morning. If you look at the whole package, what they are
:11:40. > :11:49.saying is public service workers are worse off. Average earnings in the
:11:50. > :11:54.public sector are ?16.28 an hour compared to ?14.16 private. You are
:11:55. > :11:58.comparing apples and pears. It's the kind of jobs and the size of the
:11:59. > :12:03.workplace that people work in. They are still overall on average better
:12:04. > :12:09.off? Lower paid workers tend to be better off because unions negotiate
:12:10. > :12:17.better deals for lower paid workers. They are more unionised in the pry
:12:18. > :12:21.private sector. The public sector is worse off. This is a political
:12:22. > :12:24.strike, isn't it? There is a whole disparate range of reasons. The
:12:25. > :12:29.strike is saying that you are against this Government, that is
:12:30. > :12:33.what this is about? I this I what firefighters, local government
:12:34. > :12:37.workers and health workers who are protesting, too, alongside teachers
:12:38. > :12:41.are saying is that this Government is not listening, it is out of
:12:42. > :12:45.touch, people can't carry on having cuts in their living standards
:12:46. > :12:49.depending on benefits. When will the public sector worker ever get a real
:12:50. > :12:56.increase in their pay under a Conservative Government? Well, we
:12:57. > :13:00.certainly hope to have the books balanced by 2018. Not before then?
:13:01. > :13:06.2018 is when we hope to be able to be in surplus. It is testament. .
:13:07. > :13:15.So, no real pay increase for public sector workers before 2018?
:13:16. > :13:19.Interestingly, this isn't just about the Conservatives and the Lib Dems,
:13:20. > :13:23.the Labour Party leadership have said it is a test of their
:13:24. > :13:26.credibility that they support the squeeze on public sector pay. I look
:13:27. > :13:29.forward to them, they ought to come out and say very clearly that these
:13:30. > :13:33.strikes are wrong and they are against the strikes and stop taking
:13:34. > :13:38.union money. It is a democratic right. Hold on. They are - they
:13:39. > :13:46.think the policy of pay restraint is necessary. Alright. On this point
:13:47. > :13:52.about democracy... Ask yourself why so many ordinary decent public
:13:53. > :13:59.service workers are so fed up. They have seen so many billions of pounds
:14:00. > :14:09.wasted through outsourcing to organisations like G4 S. In Unite
:14:10. > :14:16.and UNISON the turnout in this vote was under 20%. Alright. OK. One
:14:17. > :14:19.final question... Hold on. You said millions and millions voted on
:14:20. > :14:24.this... I want to ask you this question. Is the story in the Mail
:14:25. > :14:29.on Sunday today that Mr Cameron s planning a big crackdown on the
:14:30. > :14:34.unions over balloting, is that true? Well, strikes like this... I know
:14:35. > :14:38.the cases, is it true you are going to dhang the law? Strikes like this
:14:39. > :14:43.make that argument stronger. The Conservative Party is in Government
:14:44. > :14:44.on the basis of 23% of the electorate... We have run out of
:14:45. > :14:49.time. Thank you very much. "Should Scotland be
:14:50. > :14:51.an independent country?" That's the question the people of
:14:52. > :14:53.Scotland will answer in a referendum If the polls are to be believed
:14:54. > :14:57.the voters will answer "no". But in 2011 - ten weeks before
:14:58. > :14:59.the Holyrood elections - the polls told us that Labour was going to win
:15:00. > :15:02.and look what happened there - a Alistair Darling is leading
:15:03. > :15:24.the campaign against independnence. is one that puts the matter of
:15:25. > :15:31.independence to bed for a generation. In numerical terms, what
:15:32. > :15:35.would that be? We need a decisive result in September, I think we will
:15:36. > :15:40.get that provided we get our arguments across in the next couple
:15:41. > :15:45.of months. What would it be in figures? I am not going to put a
:15:46. > :15:51.number on it. People will look at it and say, OK, you have had two and a
:15:52. > :15:57.half years of debate and Scotland has now decided. The polls may be
:15:58. > :16:01.encouraging at the moment but I am not complacent, there is still a
:16:02. > :16:06.long way to go. Speculating... If you don't want to answer that, that
:16:07. > :16:12.is fair enough. Your side claims that a vote for independence is a
:16:13. > :16:17.vote for massive uncertainty but if it is a no vote there is lots of
:16:18. > :16:21.uncertainty too. All of the Westminster parties are promising
:16:22. > :16:28.devolution but there is no timetable, no certainty. Yes, there
:16:29. > :16:34.is. For the first time I can remember, all three parties are more
:16:35. > :16:40.or less on the same page in terms of additional powers, we already have
:16:41. > :16:45.powers in terms of policing and transport, now more powers are
:16:46. > :16:52.planned in relation to tax and welfare. But you are all saying
:16:53. > :16:56.different things. Between 2009 and 2012, the three parties have
:16:57. > :17:01.slightly different proposals but they came together and there was an
:17:02. > :17:08.agreed series of reforms in relation to tax which are now on the statute
:17:09. > :17:13.book. If you go back to the devolutionary settlement in 199 ,
:17:14. > :17:17.people unified around a single proposition so there is history here
:17:18. > :17:21.and these three parties have delivered and they will deliver in
:17:22. > :17:27.the event of people saying we will stay part of the UK. If Scotland
:17:28. > :17:31.vote no to independence, when will Scotland get these extra powers I
:17:32. > :17:36.would imagine that in the general election all three parties will have
:17:37. > :17:40.something in their manifesto and you would expect to see legislation in
:17:41. > :17:45.the session of Parliament that follows that. Imagining is not
:17:46. > :17:50.certainty. Because the three parties have said this is what they will do,
:17:51. > :17:56.and it is important having said that they stick to it. If you look in the
:17:57. > :18:02.past when the Nationalists said the same thing, when they cast doubt
:18:03. > :18:07.over what would happen in 2012, we delivered. The only party that
:18:08. > :18:10.walked out of both of these discussions were the Nationalists
:18:11. > :18:15.because they are not interested in more powers, they want a complete
:18:16. > :18:20.break. You cannot say that if Edinburgh gets more devolution that
:18:21. > :18:27.wouldn't mean fewer Scottish MPs in Westminster, can you? Nobody has any
:18:28. > :18:33.plans to reduce the number of MPs. If you step back from this moment,
:18:34. > :18:37.what people have been asked to do in September is to vote on the future
:18:38. > :18:42.of their country, Scotland, and whether we should be part of the UK.
:18:43. > :18:46.When I say part of the UK, full members of the UK with
:18:47. > :18:50.representation in the House of Commons and the institutions that
:18:51. > :18:57.affect our lives. This is a critically important vote. We want
:18:58. > :19:01.to see more decentralisation of power to Scotland, and to local
:19:02. > :19:05.authorities within Scotland, but we don't want a complete break with the
:19:06. > :19:10.uncertainties, the risks and the downright disadvantages that would
:19:11. > :19:20.throw Scotland's away if we were to make that break. The economic
:19:21. > :19:38.arguments are dominating people s thinking, the polls show, that is
:19:39. > :19:42.what is dominating at the moment. You cannot guarantee continued
:19:43. > :19:49.membership of the European Union given all the talk now about an
:19:50. > :19:53.in-out UK referendum. Firstly I don't think anyone has ever argued
:19:54. > :19:58.Scotland wouldn't get back in. The big question is the terms and
:19:59. > :20:01.conditions we would have to meet and we are applying to get into
:20:02. > :20:08.something that is established, it wouldn't be a negotiation. What we
:20:09. > :20:13.have said is there is no way Europe would let Scotland keep the rebate
:20:14. > :20:20.which Scotland has, there would be big questions over whether we have
:20:21. > :20:24.to join the euro, and other terms and conditions. The European Union
:20:25. > :20:30.does not act with any great speed, on average it takes eight and a half
:20:31. > :20:33.years to get into Europe. I don t want that uncertainty or the
:20:34. > :20:40.disadvantages that would come Scotland's away that come with
:20:41. > :20:47.losing clout in the European Union. The second point you asked me about
:20:48. > :20:51.is in relation to the UK's membership of the European Union,
:20:52. > :21:01.and if you look at polls, the majority of people still want to
:21:02. > :21:06.stay in the UK. Frankly, a lot of people on my side didn't make the
:21:07. > :21:12.argument against independence for a long time, we have been doing that
:21:13. > :21:17.over the last two and a half years and we are making progress and that
:21:18. > :21:20.is why I can say I think we will win provided we continue to get our
:21:21. > :21:25.arguments across. Similarly with the European Union, the case needs to be
:21:26. > :21:32.made because it is a powerful case. Isn't it true that the Nationalists
:21:33. > :21:41.win either way? They win if it is a yes vote, and they win if it is a no
:21:42. > :21:47.vote. They wanted devolution max so they win either way. There is a
:21:48. > :21:51.world of difference between devolution and further devolution
:21:52. > :21:57.where you remain part of the UK There is a world of difference
:21:58. > :22:02.between that and making a break where Scotland becomes a foreign
:22:03. > :22:07.country to the rest of the UK. You lose that security and those
:22:08. > :22:16.opportunities. You lose the same currency, the opportunity with
:22:17. > :22:20.pensions and so on. They are entitled to argue this case with
:22:21. > :22:26.passion, they want a break, but the two things are worlds apart. Gordon
:22:27. > :22:31.Brown said that the no campaign was too negative, have you adjusted to
:22:32. > :22:36.take that criticism into account? Ever since I launched this campaign
:22:37. > :22:41.over two years ago I said we would make a strong powerful case for
:22:42. > :22:48.remaining part of the UK. Look at our research, where we have had
:22:49. > :22:52.warnings from people to say that if we do well with research in Scotland
:22:53. > :22:58.we get more than our population share of the grand and we gain from
:22:59. > :23:02.that. There is a positive case but equally nobody will stop me from
:23:03. > :23:06.saying to the Nationalists, look at the assertions you make which are
:23:07. > :23:11.collapsing like skittles at the moment. Their assertions don't stand
:23:12. > :23:17.up. They assert that somehow milk and honey will be flowing. It is
:23:18. > :23:22.perfectly healthy within a referendum campaign to say that what
:23:23. > :23:38.you are saying simply isn't true. You have been negative, we all know
:23:39. > :23:48.about the so-called Cyber Nats book you compared Alex Salmond to the
:23:49. > :23:53.leader of North Korea. On! The context was that Alex Salmond was
:23:54. > :23:58.being asked why it was that UKIP had additional seat and he appeared to
:23:59. > :24:05.blame television being been doing from another country, from BBC South
:24:06. > :24:13.of the border. If you cannot have humour in a debate, heaven help us.
:24:14. > :24:18.I think it is important in this debate that people from outside
:24:19. > :24:23.politics should be allowed to have their say whatever side they are on
:24:24. > :24:28.because that will make for a far better, healthier debate. Nobody
:24:29. > :24:32.should be put in a state of fear and alarm by worrying about what will
:24:33. > :24:38.happen if they stand up. Despite the nastiness, more and more people are
:24:39. > :24:46.making a stand. We have run out of time. Thank you.
:24:47. > :24:53.I will be talking to the SNP's hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon
:24:54. > :24:58.next week on Sunday Politics. Scotland: For Richer or Poorer will
:24:59. > :25:03.be on BBC Two at 9pm tomorrow. Disastrous results in the European
:25:04. > :25:08.elections, it is fair to say the Lib Dems are down in the doldrums. In a
:25:09. > :25:18.moment I will be speaking to Nick Clegg, but first Emily has been
:25:19. > :25:32.asking what Lib Dems would say to the Prime -- Deputy Prime Minister
:25:33. > :25:36.on Call Clegg. Our phone in this week is the challenges facing the
:25:37. > :25:41.Liberal Democrats. They are rock bottom in the polls and have dire
:25:42. > :25:45.results in the local and European elections so what can the party do
:25:46. > :25:51.to turn things around? Get in touch, we are going straight to line
:25:52. > :25:56.one and Gareth. How much is a problem of that loss of local
:25:57. > :26:00.support? It is a massive problem because those are the building
:26:01. > :26:06.blocks of our success. The councillors who gets the case work
:26:07. > :26:12.done are also the people who go out and deliver the leaflets and knock
:26:13. > :26:17.on doors. Interesting, and it is not just local support the party has
:26:18. > :26:22.lost, is it? In the next general election there are some big-name
:26:23. > :26:31.Liberal Democrat MPs standing down like Malcolm Bruce and Ming
:26:32. > :26:37.Campbell, how much of a problem will that be? That is a real challenge
:26:38. > :26:42.and we have some of our brightest and best reaching an age of maturity
:26:43. > :26:46.at the same moment so that is quite an additional test in what will be a
:26:47. > :26:52.difficult election anyway. So how does the party need to position
:26:53. > :26:58.itself to win back support? Let s go to Chris online free, has the party
:26:59. > :27:07.got its strategy right? There is always a danger of appearing to be a
:27:08. > :27:10.party that merely dilutes Labour or dilutes the Conservatives. We have a
:27:11. > :27:14.of is serious, positive messages and we need to get those across in the
:27:15. > :27:19.next election because if we don t people will vote for the Tories
:27:20. > :27:26.Nick, what do you think of the party's message at the moment? I
:27:27. > :27:31.have had a look at early draft of our manifesto and there is some good
:27:32. > :27:36.stuff in there but the authors are probably too interested in what may
:27:37. > :27:41.think we have achieved in the last five years and not really focusing
:27:42. > :28:10.on what the voters will want to be hearing about the next five years.
:28:11. > :28:13.Perhaps they should get out more and test some of these messages on the
:28:14. > :28:17.doorstep. So you want to see the top ranks of the party on the doorstep.
:28:18. > :28:21.Gareth online one also wants to make a point about the manifesto. There
:28:22. > :28:26.is clearly a problem somewhere near the top and there are some people
:28:27. > :28:30.who seem to be obsessed with power for power's sake, and happy with a
:28:31. > :28:35.timid offer but the Liberal Democrats want to change things We
:28:36. > :28:40.are running out of time so let's try to squeeze one more call in. What
:28:41. > :28:44.are your thoughts on the long-term future of the party? I think serious
:28:45. > :28:50.long-term danger is that the party could be relegated to the fringes of
:28:51. > :28:53.the UK and no longer being a national party. We have gone back
:28:54. > :28:57.decades if that happens because for many years we have been represented
:28:58. > :29:00.in every part of the country at some level and we have got to rescue
:29:01. > :29:04.ourselves from that. Some interesting views but we are going
:29:05. > :29:09.to have to wait until the general election next year to find out how
:29:10. > :29:13.well the Lib Dems face up to these challenges. Thanks for listening, we
:29:14. > :29:16.are going to finish with an old classic now.
:29:17. > :29:18.# I'm sorry, I'm sorry... #. Nick Clegg, welcome to the
:29:19. > :29:22.programme. I want to come onto your situation in a minute but as you
:29:23. > :29:25.will have seen in the papers, there is mounting concern over and
:29:26. > :29:27.historic Westminster paedophile ring, and files relating to it
:29:28. > :29:31.mysteriously disappearing. Why are you against a full public enquiry
:29:32. > :29:41.into this? I wouldn't rule anything out. I think we should do anything
:29:42. > :29:56.it takes to uncover this and achieve justice.
:29:57. > :30:01.delivered, even all these many years later. How do you do it? There is an
:30:02. > :30:05.inquiry in the Home Office about what's happened to these documents,
:30:06. > :30:09.serious questions need to be asked about what happened in the Home
:30:10. > :30:13.Office and those questions need to be answered. There are inquiries in
:30:14. > :30:17.the BBC, in the NHS and most importantly of all the police are
:30:18. > :30:23.looking into the places where this abuse was alleged to have taken
:30:24. > :30:28.place. All I would say is, let's make sure that justice is delivered,
:30:29. > :30:33.truth is uncovered and I think that the way to do that, as we have seen,
:30:34. > :30:37.is by allowing the police to get on with their work. You say that, but
:30:38. > :30:41.there are only seven police involved in this inquiry. There are 195
:30:42. > :30:45.involved in the hacking investigations. We can both agree
:30:46. > :30:50.that child abuse is more important and serious than hacking. The Home
:30:51. > :30:53.Office, there are reports that Home Office officials may have been
:30:54. > :30:59.mentioned in the dossier, people don't trust people to investigate
:31:00. > :31:03.themselves, Mr Clegg? No, I accept that we need to make sure that and
:31:04. > :31:07.the police need to make sure that the police investigations are
:31:08. > :31:12.thorough, well resourced. I can t think of anything more horrendous, I
:31:13. > :31:15.can't, than powerful people organising themselves and worse
:31:16. > :31:19.still, this is what is alleged, covering up for each other to abuse
:31:20. > :31:24.the most vulnerable people in society's care - children. But at
:31:25. > :31:29.the end of the day, the only way you can get people in the dock, the only
:31:30. > :31:31.way you can get people charged, is by allowing the prosecuting
:31:32. > :31:37.authorities and the police to do their job. I have an open mind about
:31:38. > :31:41.what other inquiries take place A number of other inquiries are taking
:31:42. > :31:44.place. I assume any additional inquiries wouldn't be able to second
:31:45. > :31:48.guess or look into the matters which the police are looking into already.
:31:49. > :31:51.All I would say is that people who have information, who want to
:31:52. > :31:54.provide information which they think is relevant to this, please get in
:31:55. > :32:00.touch with the police. Alright. Let's come on to our own inquiry
:32:01. > :32:04.into the state of the Lib Dems. You have attempted to distance yourself
:32:05. > :32:08.and the party from the Tories, but still stay in Government - it is
:32:09. > :32:13.called aggressive differentiation. Why isn't it working? It's not
:32:14. > :32:19.called aggressive differentiation. It is called "coalition". It is two
:32:20. > :32:22.parties who retain different identities, different values, have
:32:23. > :32:26.different aspirations for the future. But during this Parliament
:32:27. > :32:30.have come together because we were facing a unique national emergency
:32:31. > :32:34.back in 2010, the economy was teetering on the edge of a
:32:35. > :32:37.precipice. I'm immensely proud, notwithstanding our political
:32:38. > :32:39.challenges, which are real, I'm immensely proud that the Liberal
:32:40. > :32:42.Democrats, we stepped up to the plate, held our nerve and without
:32:43. > :32:46.the Liberal Democrats, there wouldn't now be that economic
:32:47. > :32:49.recovery which is helping many people across the country. Why
:32:50. > :32:56.aren't you getting any credit for it? Well, we won't get credit if we
:32:57. > :33:00.spend all our time staring at our navals. If it wasn't for the Liberal
:33:01. > :33:05.Democrats, there wouldn't be more jobs now available to people. They
:33:06. > :33:13.don't believe you, they are giving the Tories the credit for the
:33:14. > :33:17.recovery? Well, you might assert that, we will assert and I will
:33:18. > :33:22.shout it from the rooftops that if we had not created the stability by
:33:23. > :33:25.forming this Coalition Government and then hard-wired into the
:33:26. > :33:29.Government's plans, not only the gory job of fixing the public
:33:30. > :33:32.finances, but doing so much more fairly than would have been the
:33:33. > :33:35.case, if the Conservatives had been in Government on their own, they
:33:36. > :33:40.wouldn't have delivered these tax cuts. They wouldn't have delivered
:33:41. > :33:47.the triple lock guarantee for pensions or the pupil premium. OK.
:33:48. > :33:52.Why are you 8% in the polls? Well, because I think where we get our
:33:53. > :34:03.message across - and I am here in my own constituency - this is a
:34:04. > :34:08.constituency where I am a campaigning MP - we can dispel a lot
:34:09. > :34:11.of the information and say we have done a decent thing by going into
:34:12. > :34:16.Government and we have delivered big changes, big reforms which you can
:34:17. > :34:22.touch and see in your school, in your pensions, in your taxes and
:34:23. > :34:26.then people do support us and, in our areas of strength, we were
:34:27. > :34:29.winning against both the Conservative and Labour parties It
:34:30. > :34:33.is a big effort. Of course, there are lots of people from both left
:34:34. > :34:37.and right who want to shout us down and want to vilify our role in
:34:38. > :34:41.Government. What we also need to do - and Nick Harvey was quite right -
:34:42. > :34:46.having been proud of our record of delivery, we also need to set out in
:34:47. > :34:53.our manifesto as we are and as we will our promise of more, of more
:34:54. > :35:00.support in schools. So why is it then... Why is it then that a Lib
:35:01. > :35:04.Dem MP in our own film says you are in danger of no longer becoming a
:35:05. > :35:11.National Party. That could be the Clegg legacy, you cease to be a
:35:12. > :35:14.National Party? I'm a practical man. I believe passionately in what we
:35:15. > :35:18.have done in politics. I am so proud of my party. I don't spend that much
:35:19. > :35:22.time speculating that the end might be nigh. There is no point in doing
:35:23. > :35:27.that. Let's get out there, which is what I do in my own constituency, in
:35:28. > :35:31.challenges circumstances and say we are proud of what we have done, we
:35:32. > :35:33.have done a good thing for the country, we have delivered more
:35:34. > :35:38.Liberal Democrat policies than the party has ever dreamed delivering
:35:39. > :35:42.before. We have a programme of change, of reform, of liberal
:35:43. > :35:46.reform, which is very exciting. Just over the last few weeks, I have been
:35:47. > :35:50.setting out our plans to provide more help to carers, to make sure
:35:51. > :35:55.teachers in every classroom are properly qualified, that all kids in
:35:56. > :36:00.school are being taught a proper core curriculum. That parts company
:36:01. > :36:03.from the ideological rigidities with which the Conservatives deal with
:36:04. > :36:08.education policy. Those are thing which speak to many of the values
:36:09. > :36:14.that people who support us... Alright. When Mike Storey gets out
:36:15. > :36:22.and about, he told this programme two weeks' ago that he finds that
:36:23. > :36:27.you "are toxic on the doorstep" Look, as everybody knows, being the
:36:28. > :36:30.leader of a party, which for the first time in its history goes into
:36:31. > :36:35.Government, which is already a controversial thing to do because
:36:36. > :36:39.you are governing with our enemies, the Conservatives, and on top of
:36:40. > :36:42.that, doing all the difficult and unpopular things to fix the broken
:36:43. > :36:46.economy which was left to us by Labour, of course as leader of that
:36:47. > :36:50.party I get a lot of incoming fire from right and left. The right say
:36:51. > :36:53.that I'm stopping the Conservatives doing what they want. There is a
:36:54. > :36:57.good reason for that. They didn t win the election. The left say that
:36:58. > :37:02.somehow we have lost our soul when we haven't. That happens day in day
:37:03. > :37:06.out. Of course that will have some effect. My answer to that is not to
:37:07. > :37:14.buckle to those criticisms, those misplaced Chris -- criticisms from
:37:15. > :37:20.left and right, but to stand up proudly. Is it your intention to
:37:21. > :37:26.fight the next election against an in-out referendum on Europe? Yes.
:37:27. > :37:31.Unless there is major treaty change? Our position hasn't waivered, it
:37:32. > :37:34.won't waiver, we are not going to flip-flop on the issue of the
:37:35. > :37:38.referendum like the Conservatives did. We want an in-out referendum.
:37:39. > :37:41.With ve legislated for the trigger when that will happen, when in u
:37:42. > :37:45.powers are transferred to the European Union. That is what we have
:37:46. > :37:51.said for years. We legislated for that... So no change? No change
:37:52. > :37:54.Alright. We are expecting a reshuffle shortly. Will you keep
:37:55. > :38:02.Vince Cable as Business Secretary to the election? I'm immensely proud of
:38:03. > :38:07.what Vince has done. Yes, I intend to make sure that Vince continues to
:38:08. > :38:11.serve in the Government in his present capacity Look what he has
:38:12. > :38:15.done on apprenticeships, he's done more than many people for many years
:38:16. > :38:18.to make sure we build-up manufacturing, the north here, not
:38:19. > :38:24.just the south. I'm proud of what he's done. We have talked about some
:38:25. > :38:28.heavy things. We know you have got into kickboxing. Is there any danger
:38:29. > :38:33.of you becoming a mammal - you know what I mean - a middle-aged man in
:38:34. > :38:44.Lycra! Will the Tour de France influence you? Absolutely no risk of
:38:45. > :38:49.that whatsoever having seen the Tour de France start yesterday near
:38:50. > :38:54.Leeds. I have the yellow Yorkshire sign on my pullover. I will see them
:38:55. > :38:58.later whisk through my constituency. I will not try to emulate them. I'm
:38:59. > :39:01.sure that is to the relief of a grateful nation. Thank you.
:39:02. > :39:04.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:39:05. > :39:08.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:39:09. > :39:10.for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes,
:39:11. > :39:21.the Week Ahead. The Environment Select Commhttee
:39:22. > :39:31.says that complacency is a genuine And for the next 20 minutes I'm
:39:32. > :39:37.joined by Neil Parish, Conservative MP years for Thverton
:39:38. > :39:39.and Honiton and by Michael Foster who is the Labour prospective
:39:40. > :39:42.parlimentary candidate for the Demands for better rail links
:39:43. > :39:48.in the region have been vochferous since the main line at Dawlhsh
:39:49. > :39:51.collapsed into the sea in Fdbruary. How
:39:52. > :39:54.the government plans to stop that But on Thursday the Prime Mhnister
:39:55. > :39:58.unveiled a number of other improvements to
:39:59. > :40:00.a rail network he admitted was like something out of the R`ilway
:40:01. > :40:05.children, in some respects. It is actually a triple bonts
:40:06. > :40:09.for the south`west. We're going to see a better sleeper
:40:10. > :40:13.service with modern carriagds, we're going to see more jobs right
:40:14. > :40:17.here in Penzance at this vital depot and the signalling work, whhch is
:40:18. > :40:20.the biggest part of the invdstment, coming five years early, th`t could
:40:21. > :40:23.potentially double the capacity Everybody will agree that this
:40:24. > :40:33.is good news in Cornwall. But the two of you
:40:34. > :40:36.in the south`west believe it's not People might say Michael,
:40:37. > :40:40.after years of neglect under both Labour and
:40:41. > :40:43.Conservative governments, the Tories Are not sure you would say xears
:40:44. > :40:47.of neglect. The Labour Party, while in office,
:40:48. > :40:50.dualled quite a lot Absolutely it should have bden
:40:51. > :40:56.upgraded in terms of signalling I don't think either party can claim
:40:57. > :41:00.particularly, either the Conservative or
:41:01. > :41:04.the Labour Party, that they have done well enough for Cornwall and
:41:05. > :41:07.Cornwall hasn't shouted loud enough, Whatever David is doing herd,
:41:08. > :41:12.Mr Cameron, he is obviously bringing in jobs, he is obviously upgrading
:41:13. > :41:16.the signals and that is all good. But we watched, in Cornwall, watched
:41:17. > :41:21.the Dawlish line fall into the sea. No one saying we're not going
:41:22. > :41:25.to make HS2, saying we're not going to make HS3, so clearly
:41:26. > :41:28.this is not enough money. We are still absolutely,
:41:29. > :41:32.in Cornwall, Neil, of course looking
:41:33. > :41:39.at investment elsewhere and in the train services as thdy exist
:41:40. > :41:42.already elsewhere, in comparative terms if you look at Darlington the
:41:43. > :41:49.fastest train is 40 minutes faster, I think what we want to see is
:41:50. > :41:54.improved rolling stock We also, I think we probablx need
:41:55. > :41:59.to sure up the Dawlish line even further and then if there are
:42:00. > :42:02.alternatives to be find, we can But you've got no red line
:42:03. > :42:06.in whether that should happdn? I think also, I supported HS2
:42:07. > :42:09.on the proviso that we in the West Country would get more than crumbs,
:42:10. > :42:12.we would get a slice of bre`d. Over
:42:13. > :42:18.the years we have been negldcted. We can't, of course don't forget
:42:19. > :42:21.that a lot of businesses lost out because everybody thought that Devon
:42:22. > :42:24.and Cornwall was closed, We can't go through
:42:25. > :42:26.that process again. So a second line is very,
:42:27. > :42:29.very desirable. It hasn't been ruled out,
:42:30. > :42:31.it's very expensive, but on the other hand, other parts of the
:42:32. > :42:36.country are getting money spent on them, so I'm sure we West Country
:42:37. > :42:40.MPs will fight very hard for it Michael, are you absolutely
:42:41. > :42:42.committed to a second line? Labour looked at this again
:42:43. > :42:45.when they were in power This has been looked at
:42:46. > :42:50.since the 1930s. We have to have a second line,
:42:51. > :42:53.there is no question about that Why it's called a second line,
:42:54. > :42:55.I don't know. It may take a long time to get
:42:56. > :42:58.from Plymouth to London, but it takes an awful long time to
:42:59. > :43:01.get from Plymouth to Penzance. The idea at the moment that a lot
:43:02. > :43:09.of funding has been put in In this time of austerity, when the
:43:10. > :43:13.coalition are putting through many cuts on local services in Cornwall,
:43:14. > :43:17.somehow the government think it fair for Cornwall to have to comd up with
:43:18. > :43:21.?29 million to put into this in order
:43:22. > :43:24.for us to get the services `nywhere It's really not good enough
:43:25. > :43:29.for Cornwall. We are talking
:43:30. > :43:30.about local authorities, and you That's a reasonable point, hsn't it,
:43:31. > :43:35.because local authorities are being Of course they're being squdezed,
:43:36. > :43:38.because we were left so much debt from the Labour government, ?15 ,000
:43:39. > :43:40.million a year, 28% of that expenditure came from local
:43:41. > :43:44.authorities, it's no good L`bour now turning around and saying wd're
:43:45. > :43:46.going to spend, spend, spend our They've already done that once,
:43:47. > :43:51.so let's actually spend I would suggest, considering the
:43:52. > :43:56.constraint of times that we have had, we have done very well to get
:43:57. > :44:00.the Dawlish line up and running So did Railtrack, I seldom give them
:44:01. > :44:03.plaudits but I do on this occasion. There is only a limited amotnt
:44:04. > :44:09.of money to be spent. Again, like I said thesecond
:44:10. > :44:13.line needs to be feasible. If I may, I'm not sure that
:44:14. > :44:17.austerity has got to the pohnt that you want it to in terms of reducing
:44:18. > :44:21.the deficit, because it just hasn't It's absolutely fine to havd
:44:22. > :44:25.austerity, but it's not absolutely fine for David Cameron to s`y money
:44:26. > :44:31.is no object, let's think about HS3, as opposed to even HS2,
:44:32. > :44:36.without giving people in Cornwall What I would say is
:44:37. > :44:42.the person who lives in Cornwall is worth as much to the economx as
:44:43. > :44:45.the person who lives in Yorkshire, To be fair Labour is
:44:46. > :44:50.committed to HS2 as well. Don't forget we know, I could have
:44:51. > :44:54.had much more power in Housd of Commons with negotiating money
:44:55. > :44:58.for the West Country if Labour had Once the Labour Party was stpporting
:44:59. > :45:04.HS2, I can go to Patrick McLoughlin and say, we want much more to
:45:05. > :45:09.the south`west, but we were never going to lose that vote in ` million
:45:10. > :45:12.years once Labour supported it. So we have to be absolutely
:45:13. > :45:16.fair`minded here I would suggest that the
:45:17. > :45:22.West Country, and I am a West Country man born and bred from
:45:23. > :45:25.from Somerset, so I would stggest to you that we are worth more than
:45:26. > :45:28.those in the North of England. But, there is only
:45:29. > :45:34.so much money that can be spent Now we've got to be sensibld
:45:35. > :45:36.about getting the best rolling stock, signalling
:45:37. > :45:39.on the line we have got right and faster, and then if it is fdasible
:45:40. > :45:43.to bring in a second line, do it. Don't forget we've got the Waterloo
:45:44. > :45:47.to Exeter line, which I want to see improvements around in Seaton,
:45:48. > :45:50.I want the trams linked to station There is
:45:51. > :45:54.a lot that can be done therd Then you've
:45:55. > :45:58.the 303`3` that needs duallhng, which we say we're going to do,
:45:59. > :46:02.which the last Labour government stopped as soon as they got
:46:03. > :46:06.into power, so we are doing things. So sticking with the theme
:46:07. > :46:09.of regional passion and reghonal Labour this week unveiled
:46:10. > :46:14.its plan to rebalance the economy by shifting power from Westlinster
:46:15. > :46:18.to the regions. One central proposal is that
:46:19. > :46:20.councils could link up to form combined authorities with the aim
:46:21. > :46:24.of attracting jobs and energising As John Danks reports,
:46:25. > :46:30.not everyone's convinced. Over the past few years, thd state
:46:31. > :46:34.of some high streets in the South Retailers have struggled or closed
:46:35. > :46:41.down, a sign that people have less money to spend and that the region's
:46:42. > :46:48.economy is in need of a boost. This week, Labour unveiled
:46:49. > :46:51.its plan to rebalance the country's economy, so that growth
:46:52. > :46:55.and prosperity aren't just dmployed enjoyed by people and busindsses
:46:56. > :46:59.in London and the south`east. The way we solve these questions I'm
:47:00. > :47:04.talking about is with local people making local decisions with local
:47:05. > :47:08.businesses about how their area can grow and prosper
:47:09. > :47:13.and create the jobs of the future. Under the proposals, Labour would
:47:14. > :47:17.encourage councils to join forces, These would pool resources to
:47:18. > :47:24.attract jobs and generate growth. In return,
:47:25. > :47:26.any extra business rate income generated by them could be kept
:47:27. > :47:30.instead of being passed back to Westminster and more crucially they
:47:31. > :47:34.could decide where to invest it If it worked
:47:35. > :47:37.in practice then we would bd very happy about it, as long as we knew
:47:38. > :47:40.that the money would be reinvested The problem however,
:47:41. > :47:46.is that there is a basic issue The valuation at the moment is too
:47:47. > :47:52.high and that is crucifying a lot That sentiment is shared
:47:53. > :47:57.by the owners of this shiny new Chris Hajiani's father came to the
:47:58. > :48:03.city 60 years ago, and the family We're looking
:48:04. > :48:10.for business rates to be reduced. But I don't think that would be
:48:11. > :48:13.the case if local authoritids have They will be
:48:14. > :48:20.in a situation thinking thex need to raise more money so they will just
:48:21. > :48:23.put it on business rates. Labour says businesses will see
:48:24. > :48:25.the benefits of investment I think it's a real opportunity
:48:26. > :48:29.for regions like ours to take the power and take
:48:30. > :48:33.the initiative to ourselves. We know what our priorities are
:48:34. > :48:36.people up here in London I think Ed Miliband has achheved a
:48:37. > :48:42.real step change in Labour policy. We did used to be more centralising,
:48:43. > :48:45.this is a big change from that. The idea of shifting power from
:48:46. > :48:50.Whitehall to the regions isn't new. Lord Heseltine covered similar
:48:51. > :48:52.ground in his report The government,
:48:53. > :48:57.whose localism bill was intdnded to give councils more freedom,
:48:58. > :49:00.has faced criticism, even from some We were supposed to be able to do
:49:01. > :49:06.what we want to do and yet progressively we have more
:49:07. > :49:11.restrictive, financial control from London than I've ever known
:49:12. > :49:15.in local government. The region's Lib Dems rounddd
:49:16. > :49:18.on Labour's devolution plans, Earlier this year the party promised
:49:19. > :49:23.to give the county it's own assembly if they secured a majority
:49:24. > :49:28.at the next election. Michael, the voter might be
:49:29. > :49:31.a bit confused by this becatse there's talk of more power being
:49:32. > :49:38.devolved to localities from London. Isn't that what Neil's lot claim
:49:39. > :49:41.they have been doing Well I don't know the difference
:49:42. > :49:44.at how you'd make that out, but what we're doing here is giving
:49:45. > :49:48.more money directly to more local Decisions can be made by thdm,
:49:49. > :49:53.strategic priorities can be set by them, and in Camborne
:49:54. > :49:57.and Redruth, the local Cornwall Council, together with
:49:58. > :50:01.the LEP, which is the Cornw`ll and Isles of Scilly unitary bodx, will
:50:02. > :50:09.be able to decide directly hf.. Many government coming
:50:10. > :50:16.in just throw out what the other people have done, but we'll keep
:50:17. > :50:19.that, we will work with it. But the big thing here is that it'll
:50:20. > :50:23.devolve to local businessmen and local authorities and local
:50:24. > :50:25.people with local knowledge, the ability to build businesses
:50:26. > :50:27.greater sector, innovate, And that is what we're trying to
:50:28. > :50:34.do to create private sector jobs. Neil, you should be delightdd
:50:35. > :50:38.with all of this, shouldn't you Except isn the private sector
:50:39. > :50:40.going to pay for of it? Are they going to put
:50:41. > :50:42.up business rates? That's the last thing we want
:50:43. > :50:45.to see in Devon, Cornwall or The trouble with local government
:50:46. > :50:49.is it needs to be paid for. I was in local government
:50:50. > :50:52.when the Tories were in powdr in the 80s and the 90s and thex always
:50:53. > :50:56.wanted to have central power. I didn't see much change whdn Labour
:50:57. > :51:00.was in power. There was a bit of an admission
:51:01. > :51:02.there from Ben Bradshaw. And so it's really about
:51:03. > :51:06.the funding of a local government, While you've got austere tiles you
:51:07. > :51:10.are going to keep pressure Once we can release that,
:51:11. > :51:15.then perhaps we do allow Because there are district hn Devon
:51:16. > :51:19.that are very small, perhaps they need to combine, there is Torbay
:51:20. > :51:24.that find it very difficult to exist as a unitary authority
:51:25. > :51:27.because it's not big enough. There are all sorts of problems
:51:28. > :51:31.but do we actually then want to go through another local
:51:32. > :51:32.reorganisation? There's the unitary in Cornwall
:51:33. > :51:37.but you haven't the rest of Devon, and all they do is fight ond
:51:38. > :51:39.another through the process. The opposition, the Liberal
:51:40. > :51:45.Democrats and the Tory partx, are picking holes in this and in a sense
:51:46. > :51:49.trying to deflect for the ptrpose. The purpose is to reallocatd
:51:50. > :51:52.financial resources away It is what London needs and it is
:51:53. > :51:58.what the countryside needs because it is in the countryside th`t you
:51:59. > :52:01.need to allocate those jobs. We, in Cornwall,
:52:02. > :52:05.have had delays in the applhcation of the EU money because Whitehall
:52:06. > :52:09.tried to pull it back to itself This is Labour Party policy,
:52:10. > :52:16.to spend money two or three times. Only actually spend money once
:52:17. > :52:21.and then you are committed.. If you are going to follow
:52:22. > :52:31.their spending plans, how do you suddenly, you can't suddenlx give
:52:32. > :52:34.enormous business rates I want devolved powers,
:52:35. > :52:39.but there's no point in spending.. This is allocation
:52:40. > :52:52.of central government funding back out from Whitehall,
:52:53. > :52:58.where it has been clearly mhsspent for years, back to the areas where
:52:59. > :53:02.they will spend the money. This is absolute
:53:03. > :53:05.reconciled accounting. This is not printing more money
:53:06. > :53:10.this is not spending money twice, this is just simply saying,
:53:11. > :53:13.instead of letting Eric Pickles spend that money on housing, we re
:53:14. > :53:16.going to let the local authorities Are you saying that no local
:53:17. > :53:19.authority is worthy Because I think a lot of people
:53:20. > :53:25.in my constituency and in yours who work for local authoritx work
:53:26. > :53:28.for LEP, would be very upset that That is the last thing that I'm
:53:29. > :53:32.saying. I think that local
:53:33. > :53:35.authorities are very able. But if you want to raise more money
:53:36. > :53:38.it will come We saw there in the video,
:53:39. > :53:42.businesses in Cornwall and Devon do not want to spend more business rate
:53:43. > :53:46.and that is what I have got Not actually devolving powers,
:53:47. > :53:51.because we are all trying to do Where do you get that we ard
:53:52. > :53:54.raising more money from? We'll have to leave it therd,
:53:55. > :54:00.I'm afraid. There were warnings this wedk that
:54:01. > :54:03.the UK's ability to feed itself is Some in the Southwest's agrhcultural
:54:04. > :54:07.industry said the government needs to listen more
:54:08. > :54:11.to those on the ground. The report from the Environlent
:54:12. > :54:13.Select Committee says ministers needs to put plans in place to
:54:14. > :54:16.secure the future of our food. Some jobs
:54:17. > :54:23.around the farm might never change. But the robot technology usdd
:54:24. > :54:27.on this dairy herd is definhtely If it is due to be milked it milks,
:54:28. > :54:35.if it is too early it won't work. The old ways haven't been abandoned
:54:36. > :54:39.completely, but this high`tech system rdsults in
:54:40. > :54:42.more milk and more time for dairy I'm not worried
:54:43. > :54:48.because we have to have food. There is no other way
:54:49. > :54:50.of producing food than farmhng. I think
:54:51. > :54:55.at the moment people don't realise, it will come all of a sudden
:54:56. > :54:58.when the population is growhng Farmers have been telling everybody
:54:59. > :55:03.this for years, but This week the EFRA Select Committee
:55:04. > :55:08.warned that has been a steady decline in the amount of food
:55:09. > :55:11.production in the UK and called for more government action to m`ke sure
:55:12. > :55:14.the whole industry is moving with the times and ready
:55:15. > :55:16.for the impact of weather events like the flooding on the Solerset
:55:17. > :55:20.levels, population growth and That message that is echoed here at
:55:21. > :55:28.Duchy College near the Devon border, whether farmers and agricultural
:55:29. > :55:32.workers of the future come to learn. The dairy farm from the 70s is being
:55:33. > :55:40.knocked down to make way for a ?10 million so`called "future
:55:41. > :55:44.farm", including all the latest to dairy technologies and a skhlls and
:55:45. > :55:47.research hub looking into things the MPs are raising, like the nded
:55:48. > :55:51.for more resilient crops. Experts say the future
:55:52. > :55:54.of our food is something we all need Just consider the complexitx
:55:55. > :55:58.of the industry, the complexity of the land, the skills that mdan that
:55:59. > :56:03.when you go to the supermarket, what You know, it's there on Tuesday
:56:04. > :56:08.Wednesday, Many other countries in the world,
:56:09. > :56:18.many other people don't get that. The MPs are worried
:56:19. > :56:21.about attracting new farmers. William has taken on the farm
:56:22. > :56:25.from his dad and his teenagd son is You got to listen to people that
:56:26. > :56:34.reducing food there is land being taken out every year from houses,
:56:35. > :56:50.solar panels and so on. Report recognises the UK's food
:56:51. > :56:56.security is well protected. It says it will invest ?450 million every
:56:57. > :56:57.year to withhold this. But ht is not complacent which is why it hs
:56:58. > :57:09.investing in search. Neil, you sit on the EFRA committee.
:57:10. > :57:13.If people want to buy food from other countries, and there hsn't
:57:14. > :57:19.enough of a market for home grown produce, is it the place of
:57:20. > :57:24.government to be intervening? It is just making it absolutely clear that
:57:25. > :57:31.we can produce more Looe bedf, lamb, all the things that we can grow well
:57:32. > :57:36.in this country. We're not going to grow bananas, and things thhngs that
:57:37. > :57:42.that. But if you wanted to buy it... We only have to feed
:57:43. > :57:46.ourselves, but don't forget the world population is going and I
:57:47. > :57:50.think it is our responsibilhty to grow as much food as we can in the
:57:51. > :57:54.UK and export to places likd China because they are eating mord fruit.
:57:55. > :58:05.There is a real need to produce more. We never forgot to brhng in,
:58:06. > :58:10.my view, is biotechnology. We will not need to spread potatoes in the
:58:11. > :58:15.future so we can use sites to help us. These things need to be added
:58:16. > :58:21.in, because we will need to produce more food from less land. Wd need
:58:22. > :58:26.homes, so they will be built on There is land being used in other
:58:27. > :58:32.parts of the world, burning up, drying up and can't produce foods,
:58:33. > :58:37.so you need to do it. Michadl, do you have sympathy with the general
:58:38. > :58:49.conclusion here? I think I have sympathy, I read the report. It is a
:58:50. > :58:53.good report. It reminds me of Dad's Army. Clearly, you can't grow food
:58:54. > :58:57.on land that is turned over to housing and clearly there is a
:58:58. > :59:02.battle between agricultural and non`agricultural use. I think it is
:59:03. > :59:09.important to improve the stock of what we grow, but I do think this is
:59:10. > :59:14.a little alarm `ist. I find it extraordinary funny, that whth all
:59:15. > :59:18.things going on we are talkhng about not having free trade of food. We
:59:19. > :59:26.have the Labour politician defending a free market against the
:59:27. > :59:31.conservative? There needs to be tweaks in a market here and there.
:59:32. > :59:34.In order to actually reduce regulation and get farmers out
:59:35. > :59:40.there, give them confidence. If you give Cabanas confidence thex will
:59:41. > :59:47.produce the food and they whll produce more `` if you give farmers
:59:48. > :59:51.confidence. It's not just about us, why should we not be buying food
:59:52. > :59:58.from Africa when that would be best spent producing food for thdm. I did
:59:59. > :00:05.want to see as produce more food and do it in a way that is posshble I
:00:06. > :00:10.think the Labour Party might agree on biotechnology more than other
:00:11. > :00:11.parties. It's time now for our regular roundup of the political
:00:12. > :00:22.week. Apologies from South West w`ter
:00:23. > :00:29.after raw sewage poured into the sea in West Cornwall. We have to ask the
:00:30. > :00:34.question whether Southwest water have put in really expensivd
:00:35. > :00:40.multi`million pound, sewage clean`up programme, whether sufficiently
:00:41. > :00:46.future proof? An incident in which to Dartmoor prisoners were offered
:00:47. > :00:50.suntan lotion after escaping onto the roof, won't happen again. We
:00:51. > :00:54.have looked carefully at thhs particular incident to make sure
:00:55. > :00:58.there is nothing to encourage that kind of behaviour. Some polhcing
:00:59. > :01:02.levels in Devon and Cornwall are unacceptable Ewloe, according to
:01:03. > :01:07.those who the force. I am disappointed that the government put
:01:08. > :01:12.off funding from last year tntil after the election. And the
:01:13. > :01:16.government confirms plans to capture the escaped beavers which h`ve been
:01:17. > :01:18.seen on the river in East Ddvon They need to come to no harl and be
:01:19. > :01:30.re`homed in a zoo. Suncream for prisoners? Probably not
:01:31. > :01:33.necessary, but on the other hand you don't want them to suffer too much.
:01:34. > :01:42.They shouldn't have been out on the roof in the first place. Thd issue
:01:43. > :01:57.on prisoners is make sure wd don't lose too many. Michael? Health and
:01:58. > :02:02.safety gone mad. A duty of care but health and safety gone mad. It has
:02:03. > :02:06.been said that it might encourage other prisoners to escape onto the
:02:07. > :02:07.roof on the expectation that they would get cold drinks and ice cream
:02:08. > :02:12.as well. research indicates that most of the
:02:13. > :02:17.progress in London was being made before that started. I wish we had
:02:18. > :02:20.longer for that. It is all over to you.
:02:21. > :02:22.What will Thursday's mass public sector strike achieve?
:02:23. > :02:25.Has David Cameron's anti-Juncker attacks clawed back support
:02:26. > :02:29.And is Alan Johnson really thinking about challenging Ed Miliband
:02:30. > :02:49.We will start with the strikes, Matt Hancock was hardline in the
:02:50. > :02:54.head-to-head that he did with the TUC. I guess that the Tory internal
:02:55. > :02:58.polling and focus groups must be telling them that there are votes in
:02:59. > :03:06.taking a tough line? There is that and there is the fact that they are
:03:07. > :03:12.now much more confident on any economic policy two or three years
:03:13. > :03:16.ago. They shied away from it because the economy was shrinking, there was
:03:17. > :03:20.still a danger that public sector job losses would lead to higher
:03:21. > :03:25.unemployment overall. Now, the economy is growing, they have a good
:03:26. > :03:30.story to sell about employment so they are much more bolshy and brazen
:03:31. > :03:35.than they were two or three years ago. They know that it always causes
:03:36. > :03:40.problems for Labour. Labour is naturally sympathetic to the public
:03:41. > :03:45.sector workers, pay being squeezed, they are striking to make an issue
:03:46. > :03:50.of it. And yet they can't quite come out and give the unions 100% Labour
:03:51. > :03:54.support? Exactly. You saw Tristram Hunt on the Marr Show this morning
:03:55. > :03:57.squirming to support the idea of strikes, but not this particular
:03:58. > :04:00.strike. It was always the question that gets asked to Labour - who
:04:01. > :04:04.funds you? That is a real problem. The bit that gets me is they trail
:04:05. > :04:09.this ef are I time there is a - every time there is a strike, this
:04:10. > :04:14.idea of cutting it to ballots and local election turnout was a third.
:04:15. > :04:18.Boris Johnson was elected Mayor of London with 38% turnout. We need to
:04:19. > :04:26.talk about-turnout across our democracy. That is an easy rebuttal
:04:27. > :04:30.for Labour to make. Matt Hancock was hardline about changing the strike
:04:31. > :04:34.law. When you asked him the question, if you are not going to
:04:35. > :04:39.stabilise the public finances till 2018, does this mean the pay freeze
:04:40. > :04:43.or no real term pay increase in the public sector will increase till
:04:44. > :04:49.2018, h e was inner vous on that one. -- he was nervous on that one.
:04:50. > :04:54.This strike is different to those strikes that took place in 2010 At
:04:55. > :04:57.that time, the TUC and the Labour Leadership thought there was going
:04:58. > :05:03.to be a great movement out there, not a kind of 1926 movement, but a
:05:04. > :05:10.great movement out there. This time round, I think the climate is
:05:11. > :05:13.different. Ed Miliband talking about wage increases being outstripped by
:05:14. > :05:17.inflation and people not seeing the recovery coming through into their
:05:18. > :05:25.pay packets. Slightly more tricky territory for the Tories. If The
:05:26. > :05:31.Labour machine cannot make something out of Matt Hancock telling this
:05:32. > :05:36.programme there will be no increase in pay for workers in the public
:05:37. > :05:39.sector till 2018, they have a problem? They do have a problem
:05:40. > :05:43.They have to say always that they would not just turn the money taps
:05:44. > :05:47.on. That is the dance that you are locked in all the time. Can we all
:05:48. > :05:55.agree that Alan Johnson is not going to stand against Ed Miliband this
:05:56. > :05:59.side of the election? Some politicians are cynical enough. I
:06:00. > :06:04.don't think Alan Johnson is one Do we agree? There is nothing in it for
:06:05. > :06:09.Labour and certainly not for Alan Johnson. No way. It is the last
:06:10. > :06:13.thing he would want to do. There are some desperate members going around
:06:14. > :06:17.trying to find a stalking horse Alan Johnson will not be their man.
:06:18. > :06:23.He has more important things to do on a Thursday night on BBC One!
:06:24. > :06:26.Isn't it something about the febrile state of the Labour Party that
:06:27. > :06:32.Labour, some Labour backbenchers or in the Shadow Cabinet, can float the
:06:33. > :06:35.idea of this nonsense? If there was a time to do it, maybe it was in the
:06:36. > :06:40.middle of the Parliament. With ten months left, you are stuck with the
:06:41. > :06:47.leader you chose in 2010. I remember them failing to understand this in
:06:48. > :06:51.January of 2010 when there was that last push against Gordon Brown. Five
:06:52. > :07:03.months before an election, they were trying to do something. The deputy
:07:04. > :07:07.Leader of the Labour Party had something to do with it. There is
:07:08. > :07:16.deep unease about Ed Miliband. There are problems but Alan Johnson is not
:07:17. > :07:20.the man. I think there is no chance of it!
:07:21. > :07:22.If the most recent polls are to be believed, David Cameron appears to
:07:23. > :07:25.have enjoyed a 'Juncker bounce' - clawing back some support from UKIP
:07:26. > :07:29.after he very publicly opposed the appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker
:07:30. > :07:31.to the post of EU Commission president. Last week Nigel Farage
:07:32. > :07:35.took his newly enlarged UKIP contingent to Strasbourg
:07:36. > :07:48.for the first session of the new European Parliament.
:07:49. > :07:57.These two gentlemen have nothing to say today. It was the usual dull,
:07:58. > :08:00.looking back to a model invented 50 years ago and we are the ones that
:08:01. > :08:04.want democracy, we are the ones that want nation state, we are the ones
:08:05. > :08:13.that want a global future for our countries, not to be trapped inside
:08:14. > :08:14.this museum. Thank you. I can see we will be covering more of the
:08:15. > :08:21.European Parliament at last! It's rumoured he's likely to stand
:08:22. > :08:24.in the next general election in the Kent constituency of Thanet South,
:08:25. > :08:26.currently held by the Conservatives. Last week the Conservatives selected
:08:27. > :08:29.their candidate for the seat - Craig McKinlay -
:08:30. > :08:40.a former deputy leader of UKIP. Did you get the short straw, you
:08:41. > :08:43.have got a seat that Nigel Farage is probably going to fight? Not in the
:08:44. > :08:48.slightest. It is a seat that I know well. It is a seat that there's
:08:49. > :08:53.obvious euro scepticism there and my qualities are right for that seat.
:08:54. > :08:59.UKIP got some very good... What are your qualities? Deep-seated
:09:00. > :09:03.conservatism, I was a founder of UKIP, I wrote the script back in
:09:04. > :09:11.1992. My heart is Conservative values. They are best put out to the
:09:12. > :09:16.public by me in South Thanet. It would be ridiculous if Nigel chose
:09:17. > :09:19.that seat. We need a building block of people like myself to form a
:09:20. > :09:22.Government if we are going to have that referendum that is long
:09:23. > :09:27.overdue. I don't think he's got the luxury of losing somebody who is
:09:28. > :09:31.very similar in views to him. He would be best look looking
:09:32. > :09:34.elsewhere. You wouldn't like him to stand in your seat, would you? It
:09:35. > :09:39.would seem to make very little sense. People would say what is UKIP
:09:40. > :09:44.all about if it's fighting people who have got a similar view to them?
:09:45. > :09:47.We do need to build a majority Government for the Conservatives
:09:48. > :09:51.next year because only us are offering that clear in-out
:09:52. > :09:55.referendum. I want to be one of those building blocks that is part
:09:56. > :10:00.of that renegotiation that we will put to public in a referendum.
:10:01. > :10:11.Sounds to me like if the choice is between you and Nigel Farage next
:10:12. > :10:15.May in Thanet South, it is Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all The
:10:16. > :10:19.danger to this country is another Labour Government. That is one of
:10:20. > :10:23.the main reasons that I left UKIP in 2005 because that last five years of
:10:24. > :10:27.the Labour Government was the most dangerous to the fundamentals of
:10:28. > :10:37.Britain that we have ever seen. I'm happy with the Conservatives. I have
:10:38. > :10:44.full Conservative values. I am a Euro-sceptic. Thank you for joining
:10:45. > :10:52.us. The Westminster bubble yet again, which has a herd mentality, a
:10:53. > :10:58.bubble with a herd mentality, it got it wrong yet again. Mr Cameron's
:10:59. > :11:03.isolated, he is useless at diplomacy, all of which may be true,
:11:04. > :11:07.but the British people liked it and his backbenchers liked it? True
:11:08. > :11:10.Although some of us would say it is possible... You are speaking for the
:11:11. > :11:15.bubble? I'm speaking for my segment of the bubble. Some of us argued
:11:16. > :11:27.that he got it wrong diplomatically and it would be wrong politically.
:11:28. > :11:33.It will be the passage of time. We saw UKIP decline between the 20 4
:11:34. > :11:38.European elections and the 2005 General. You would expect something
:11:39. > :11:42.similar to happen this time round. The question is how far low do they
:11:43. > :11:47.fall? They are still registering 12-15% in the opinion polls. They
:11:48. > :11:51.are. When Mr Cameron wielded his veto which again the Westminster
:11:52. > :11:55.bubble said it's terrible, it is embarrassing, he overtook Labour in
:11:56. > :12:00.the polls for a while doing that. He's had a Juncker bounce. If you
:12:01. > :12:03.were a strategist, would you not conclude the more Euro-sceptic I am,
:12:04. > :12:15.the better it is for me in the polls? In the short-term, yes. This
:12:16. > :12:20.is the short-term thinking we are supposed to despise. The electricion
:12:21. > :12:23.is very clever for a different - the selection is very clever for a
:12:24. > :12:28.different reason. It is this anti-London feeling in Thanet South.
:12:29. > :12:31.He is a councillor, he grew up in the constituency. He is a chartered
:12:32. > :12:36.accountant. He is somebody who can be seen to be a champion of local
:12:37. > :12:39.people. If they had parachuted in a special adviser, they would be in
:12:40. > :12:43.real trouble. He wants to get out... This is the third representative of
:12:44. > :12:46.the bubble? He wants to get out of the European Union which David
:12:47. > :12:51.Cameron doesn't want to do. It was interesting for that statement to
:12:52. > :12:55.MPs on Monday, there were mild Euro-sceptics who said, "I can't
:12:56. > :13:01.take this." The Speaker said can the baying mob, the Conservative MPs,
:13:02. > :13:06.quieten down, please. Ben Bradshaw, the former Minister made it, he
:13:07. > :13:13.said, "I'm reminded when the leader of the Labour Party before Harold
:13:14. > :13:17.Wilson made that famous Euro-sceptic speech and Mrs Gaitskell said
:13:18. > :13:19.darling, the wrong people are cheering." That is the challenge.
:13:20. > :13:23.Thank you, bubbles! The Daily Politics is back
:13:24. > :13:27.at its usual Noon time every day And I'll be back here on BBC One
:13:28. > :13:32.next Sunday at 11pm for the last Sunday Politics of the summer - I'll
:13:33. > :13:37.be talking to Scotland's Deputy Remember, if it's Sunday,
:13:38. > :13:44.it's the Sunday Politics.