:00:37. > :00:42.Just two months to go until Scotland decides if it should stay
:00:43. > :00:45.As the campaign heads for the final furlong,
:00:46. > :00:50.what are the issues and arguments that will determine the result?
:00:51. > :00:53.The SNP's deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me live.
:00:54. > :00:56.David Cameron's scheduled a major cabinet reshuffle on Tuesday.
:00:57. > :00:59.Many of those tipped for promotion are women.
:01:00. > :01:03.So have efforts to promote diversity in public life barely started or
:01:04. > :01:12.And don't know whether to support Germany or
:01:13. > :01:19.Fear not, we'll bring you our political guide to the World Cup.
:01:20. > :01:20.And in the South West, the patients fighting
:01:21. > :01:38.And is tourism being hit by Gove's term time holiday fines?
:01:39. > :01:41.It's World Cup final day and as usual the BBC's snagged the
:01:42. > :01:46.Yes, eat your heart out, ITV, because for top football analysis
:01:47. > :01:50.we've got Gary Lineker, Alan Hansen, and Alan Shearer.
:01:51. > :01:52.And for top political analysis you may
:01:53. > :01:56.as well tune in to them too because all we could come up with is Nick
:01:57. > :02:06.David Cameron will reshuffle his cabinet on Tuesday.
:02:07. > :02:09.The Sunday papers are full of stories telling us who'll be
:02:10. > :02:12.in and who'll be out, though they don't really know.
:02:13. > :02:15.The Mail on Sunday has one of the more eye-catching lines,
:02:16. > :02:17.reporting that former defence secretary and right-winger Liam Fox
:02:18. > :02:20.is in line for a return to the political front line.
:02:21. > :02:27.But there's general agreement that women will do well and some
:02:28. > :02:30.of the old men in suits guard will do badly.
:02:31. > :02:40.Here's senior Tory backbencher David Davis speaking to this programme.
:02:41. > :02:47.It's good to make parliament more representative.
:02:48. > :02:50.But you've got to do it in a way that doesn't create
:02:51. > :02:53.injustices, and you can't put people in a job who can't do the job.
:02:54. > :03:01.And I've seen that too over the last 20 years, people being
:03:02. > :03:04.accelerated too far too fast and they come to
:03:05. > :03:09.a screeching halt where they have to catch up with themselves.
:03:10. > :03:23.I am not going to give an example. Is this not a bit cynical? He is
:03:24. > :03:31.going to promote these women into cabinet positions, but they will not
:03:32. > :03:36.be able to do anything. I am sceptical of Cabinet reshuffle. It
:03:37. > :03:43.is an un-written pact in that the media and the government have a
:03:44. > :03:47.great interest in talking it up The government says, haven't we
:03:48. > :03:52.refreshed ourselves? Generally it doesn't refresh the government.
:03:53. > :03:59.David Cameron wants to send out a new signal. You're going to see the
:04:00. > :04:03.old guard getting a P 45 and you will see a lot of women come in and
:04:04. > :04:10.a lot of younger men. We will find there will be a lot of resignations.
:04:11. > :04:16.A lot of, dear Prime Minister, as I told you 18 months ago, I want to
:04:17. > :04:20.move on. Because the Conservatives have this perception of not being
:04:21. > :04:25.very good with women and not being good with black and ethnic minority
:04:26. > :04:32.voters, they are going to want to do something about that. Why did he not
:04:33. > :04:38.do it before? This reshuffle might be the triumph of the a list. A lot
:04:39. > :04:43.of the women coming through the ranks have been from the a list
:04:44. > :04:47.which was a half measure because they knew they could not bring all
:04:48. > :04:52.of them in. You are going to see more women but that is a result of a
:04:53. > :04:58.long-term strategy. David Cameron is not the world's most raging
:04:59. > :05:02.feminist. He is doing this for practical reasons. He knows he has
:05:03. > :05:12.an image problem for the party and he has to solve it. He was stung by
:05:13. > :05:14.that picture of the all-male bench at Prime Minister's Questions
:05:15. > :05:20.because visibly it gave you the problem that you have been talking
:05:21. > :05:25.about. I do not think he has allowed it to be all-male since that
:05:26. > :05:28.embarrassing image. I can understand the criticism made of this approach
:05:29. > :05:35.if it was the case that all the women being promoted by talentless
:05:36. > :05:40.but you have to be very harsh to look at them and say that they would
:05:41. > :05:52.have much less to offer than the likes of Andrew Lansley. You can be
:05:53. > :05:56.pro-feminist. The tests for David Cameron is that having raised
:05:57. > :06:00.expectations he has to give them substantial jobs. They have to be
:06:01. > :06:05.given departments to run or big portfolios to carry. If they are
:06:06. > :06:10.given media campaign positions in the run-up to the election it looks
:06:11. > :06:16.perfunctorily. He is under some trouble to perhaps suggest a female
:06:17. > :06:24.commissioner to the European Union Commission. Jean-Claude Juncker has
:06:25. > :06:30.made clear that if he proposes a woman candidate they will get a
:06:31. > :06:37.better job. Saying they would like ten out of the 28 to be women. We
:06:38. > :06:43.are going to get the name of the British candidate at the same time
:06:44. > :06:49.as the reshuffle. The first face-to-face meeting, he will be
:06:50. > :06:56.able to put a name. There are other names in the frame. People like
:06:57. > :07:05.Archie Norman. That come from? His name is in the frame. There would be
:07:06. > :07:09.great scepticism of giving it to Andrew Lansley. People would think
:07:10. > :07:18.he was the man who mucked up the reform of the NHS. Who is it going
:07:19. > :07:23.to be? Either a woman or a man. I would not be surprised if they go
:07:24. > :07:29.for someone believe dynamic. Someone who would square the party. Would
:07:30. > :07:36.that not mean a by-election? It might. She is a high profile
:07:37. > :07:41.Eurosceptic. She is a very competent former banker. It would be the smart
:07:42. > :07:42.choice. I have no idea but my favourite rumour is Michael Howard.
:07:43. > :07:51.That had some legs for a while. The Mystic Megs of Fleet Street
:07:52. > :07:55.predict with confidence that the PM is going to promote more women
:07:56. > :07:56.in his cabinet reshuffle. The move can be seen as part
:07:57. > :08:00.of a move across British public life to do more to make our institutions
:08:01. > :08:03.less male and less white. But as the list
:08:04. > :08:05.of schemes to encourage diversity grows ever-longer, have we abandoned
:08:06. > :08:21.the idea of appointment by merit? Tunnelling. Hard hats, and all for
:08:22. > :08:26.new trains. It does not get more macho than the Crossrail project.
:08:27. > :08:27.When Crossrail looked at the construction industry they realise
:08:28. > :08:38.that less than 20% was made up construction industry they realise
:08:39. > :08:40.women and they asked, can we fix it? They are trying with a recruitment
:08:41. > :08:47.drive that has brought in female engineers like this woman. She even
:08:48. > :08:50.has a tunnel named after her. Having more female engineers and
:08:51. > :08:56.construction brings a bigger range of opinions, a bigger range of
:08:57. > :09:01.ideas, more diversity, into the industry, and makes it better as a
:09:02. > :09:05.whole. It is the issue being grappled in another male dominated
:09:06. > :09:08.workplace, the Cabinet. There is about to be a reach shuffle and the
:09:09. > :09:12.rumour is David Cameron is going to promote a lot of female ministers.
:09:13. > :09:18.It was a lack of promotion that annoyed Harriet Harman this week.
:09:19. > :09:22.She claimed Gordon Brown did not make her Deputy Prime Minister
:09:23. > :09:25.because she was a woman. It was strange that in a hard-fought highly
:09:26. > :09:30.contested election to be deputy leader of the Labour Party, and
:09:31. > :09:34.having won against men in the Cabinet, to succeed to be deputy
:09:35. > :11:18.leader of the Labour Party I discovered that
:11:19. > :11:19.leader of the Labour Party I construction industry. The
:11:20. > :11:20.leader of the Labour Party I is, what tools do you use when it
:11:21. > :11:31.comes to the rest of society? I'm joined now by
:11:32. > :11:33.Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, a columnist for the Independent
:11:34. > :11:35.and by Munira Mirza, the deputy mayor of London responsible
:11:36. > :11:48.for education and culture. Cabinet wee shovel coming up punches
:11:49. > :11:55.though. Should David Cameron be promoting women? He is going to do
:11:56. > :12:01.it anyway. He should have a long time ago. It does not feel quite
:12:02. > :12:07.right that a few months before the election it would do the party a lot
:12:08. > :12:11.of good to be seen as a party properly reflective of the entire
:12:12. > :12:16.population. He should promote women because they are women? I think he
:12:17. > :12:18.should think about lots of different factors, whether the people he wants
:12:19. > :12:26.promote have proven themselves in their current reefs, whether they
:12:27. > :12:30.are good performers in the media, whether they represent different
:12:31. > :12:35.parts of the party, but the main principle is to promote on basis of
:12:36. > :12:39.merit. There are many talented women who fill that description. It should
:12:40. > :12:43.be that merit is the important thing rather than what you were born with.
:12:44. > :12:47.The thing about positive discrimination as it flies in the
:12:48. > :12:52.face of that kind of principle. You are shaking your head. We have
:12:53. > :12:59.always had positive discrimination. Men of a certain class have
:13:00. > :13:04.appointed in their own image because they feel most comfortable with
:13:05. > :13:06.that. We have had unspoken positive discrimination in this country and
:13:07. > :13:13.every other country throughout history. We are asking as women all
:13:14. > :13:19.minorities, let us get into the same game. What do you say? You cannot
:13:20. > :13:25.solve the racism or the sexism of the past by more racism and sexism.
:13:26. > :13:30.It is not the past. There are complex reasons why a smaller number
:13:31. > :13:35.of women will appear in certain industries. It has a lot to do with
:13:36. > :13:39.childcare, education, expected. You cannot short cut that by setting a
:13:40. > :13:43.target. That is not how you achieve equality. Things are changing and
:13:44. > :13:49.more women are appearing in engineering and so on but it will
:13:50. > :13:51.take time. My worry is that these kinds of measures are
:13:52. > :13:52.counter-productive and undermine the perception that women can do it on
:13:53. > :13:55.their own merit rather counter-productive and undermine the
:13:56. > :14:00.perception that women can do it than because they need a helping hand. It
:14:01. > :14:11.is not a helping hand. It is to say, we are as good as men and these
:14:12. > :14:13.hidden barriers. Dot. Either they are not as good or they do not want
:14:14. > :14:17.it, which is just how we persuade are not as good or they do not want
:14:18. > :14:22.it, which ourselves that it is not happening, or there are barriers.
:14:23. > :14:30.How we judge meritocracy is at the heart of it. Are lots of industries
:14:31. > :14:36.won there are not that many women, such as engineering. We need more
:14:37. > :14:43.engineers generally. I think it is fine to try to encourage more women
:14:44. > :14:50.to study that subject. By setting a target you put pressure on an
:14:51. > :15:12.organisation. You tried to ignore the complex reasons why women do not
:15:13. > :15:21.go into those sectors. I think an all-female short list achieved
:15:22. > :15:25.miracle in Parliament. This is following up from having an
:15:26. > :15:29.injection of women coming up because the system was changed and a large
:15:30. > :15:36.percentage of women went into Parliament under the all-female
:15:37. > :15:43.short list were brilliant, so why not? So if the Prime Minister is
:15:44. > :15:51.mailed the Deputy Prime Minister has to be female and vice versa? Yes,
:15:52. > :16:00.absolutely, 50-50. We need to reflect the population. If we want
:16:01. > :16:05.to play this as a symbolic gesture, ideally we should have one of each.
:16:06. > :16:11.Why should a man get the job if you have a great female prime minister
:16:12. > :16:18.and a great female Deputy Prime Minister? I personally wouldn't mind
:16:19. > :16:29.this. I hear the disgruntled man and I want to come -- them to come with
:16:30. > :16:33.us. You're choosing people on the basis of traits they were born
:16:34. > :16:39.with. Are there too many Indian doctors in the NHS? I would argue
:16:40. > :16:43.not. Given that we tend to have male prime ministers rather than female
:16:44. > :16:51.ones, and we don't see another female one coming down the pipe very
:16:52. > :16:57.quickly... In the time before women short lists by the way. If you had a
:16:58. > :17:03.male prime minister with a female Deputy Prime Minister, wouldn't that
:17:04. > :17:08.give some balance? Why women? Why not working class person, which
:17:09. > :17:13.group do you prioritise? I would go with you that we need something
:17:14. > :17:17.fundamental to change. This idea that what we have now is a
:17:18. > :17:22.reflection of a genuine meritocracy is highly questionable. I would
:17:23. > :17:23.argue that when you look at the statistics things are changing.
:17:24. > :17:26.argue that when you look at the statistics things There are more
:17:27. > :17:35.women appearing in parts of public life, that is a long-term trend but
:17:36. > :17:39.if you are trying to appoint people on what they were born with... That
:17:40. > :17:42.is not the only reason but it is an additional reason. She has to be
:17:43. > :17:48.able to do the job, obviously. I am saying the policy of hazard to
:17:49. > :17:52.discrimination explicitly state that you should choose somebody who is
:17:53. > :17:56.female because they are female. At the moment there is already enough
:17:57. > :18:03.suspicion about women who are successful to get to the senior
:18:04. > :18:06.position and if you institutionalise it you reinforce that suspicion
:18:07. > :18:13.Harriet Harman is still complaining women are not being treated fairly.
:18:14. > :18:17.I think the policy reinforces the prejudice that women are not getting
:18:18. > :18:24.there because they are treated on the same basis. Although you may not
:18:25. > :18:28.want to have the all-female short list forever, wasn't it the kind of
:18:29. > :18:33.shock to the system that made a visible change in female
:18:34. > :18:40.representation, which the Tory side hasn't got? Of course it will work
:18:41. > :18:45.short-term but longer term it has a very degrading effect on the
:18:46. > :18:50.principle of equality and the fact Harriet Harman is saying she wasn't
:18:51. > :18:58.treated equally, whether it is true or not, the perception is still
:18:59. > :19:02.there. A number of women find this position must be reserved for a
:19:03. > :19:11.woman lying patronising, and speaking of patronising women, you
:19:12. > :19:15.spoken your Independent column, she presses all of the buttons for white
:19:16. > :19:21.people... Was that patronising and offensive? Probably. I wrote it
:19:22. > :19:26.because I felt that at the time but the point is that I was a token when
:19:27. > :19:32.I was appointed. The paper brought me in because I was a woman and I
:19:33. > :19:38.was a muslin or whatever. You are not writing about yourself. I was
:19:39. > :19:54.writing... It doesn't mean you don't criticise other women. We absolutely
:19:55. > :20:01.have to be tough, Manira is tough and so am I. Do you want to take
:20:02. > :20:07.back what you wrote? No. Do you really think positive discrimination
:20:08. > :20:13.has gone too far? I think there is already a suspicion out there that
:20:14. > :20:16.in certain sectors women are being promoted for the wrong reasons or
:20:17. > :20:23.ethnic minorities are being promoted for the wrong reasons. That is a
:20:24. > :20:27.shame and my worry is that by tying funding to your ethnicity or your
:20:28. > :20:31.gender, by saying you will get a promotion if you check that box but
:20:32. > :20:42.you feel that resentment and prejudice and undermine the case for
:20:43. > :20:48.inequality. I wanted to be treated equally, because I am capable of
:20:49. > :20:56.doing that job. Only two months to go before Scotland takes its biggest
:20:57. > :21:02.constitutional decision in 300 years - should it quit or stay with the
:21:03. > :21:06.UK? For some in Scotland campaign has been going on forever. What has
:21:07. > :21:13.been the impact on the campaign to date?
:21:14. > :21:18.Alex Salmond says Scotland would remain part of the European Union
:21:19. > :21:22.with sterling as its currency in a monetary union with the rest of the
:21:23. > :21:28.UK, but he has also promised more public spending, increased child
:21:29. > :21:36.care provision and free personal care for the elderly. The SNP claims
:21:37. > :21:41.it would leave people better off by ?1000 though that partly depends on
:21:42. > :21:48.the price of oil. With the Better Together arguing against
:21:49. > :21:52.independence, it has naturally been attacking the SNP on all fronts
:21:53. > :21:58.George Osborne says there will be no monetary union. President Barroso
:21:59. > :22:03.told the BBC it would be extremely difficult for Scotland to join the
:22:04. > :22:17.EU after a yes vote. His successor this week said he agreed. Unions
:22:18. > :22:24.claim Scotland benefit by ?1400 by being part of the UK. A poll this
:22:25. > :22:31.morning shows a significant lead of 57% for the no campaign, leaving the
:22:32. > :22:36.SNP to claim it will go their way in the last ten weeks. Nicola Sturgeon,
:22:37. > :22:40.the Deputy First Minister of Scotland, joins me now. You want an
:22:41. > :22:47.independent Scotland to keep the pound, stay in NATO, stay in the
:22:48. > :22:52.EU, Scotland already has all of that but you cannot guarantee it would
:22:53. > :22:59.have any of it in an independent Scotland, why take the risk? All of
:23:00. > :23:02.these things should be the case because they are in the best
:23:03. > :23:08.interests of Scotland and the rest of the UK but we want the powers to
:23:09. > :23:14.enable us to grow our economy faster, to be productive, and
:23:15. > :23:20.overtime increased the prosperity of people living in Scotland. We also
:23:21. > :23:26.want powers over our social security system so that we can create a
:23:27. > :23:29.system that meets our needs, one that also has a safety net for the
:23:30. > :23:36.most vulnerable people in our society. Independence is about
:23:37. > :23:40.letting us decide our own priorities. You didn't answer my
:23:41. > :23:45.question, you cannot guarantee you would be able to keep the pound
:23:46. > :23:50.within a monetary union, stay in NATO and the EU, you cannot
:23:51. > :23:55.guarantee you could produce any of these things, correct? I would argue
:23:56. > :24:00.that we can because these things are also in the interest of the rest of
:24:01. > :24:05.the UK. No country can be prevented from using the pound, I suggest we
:24:06. > :24:11.use that within a formal monetary union. We have had the UK minister
:24:12. > :24:15.quoted in the Guardian saying the position of the UK Government right
:24:16. > :24:19.now is one based on campaign rhetoric and following a yes vote,
:24:20. > :24:27.of course there would be a currency union. Who is that minister? The
:24:28. > :24:32.Minister is unnamed, but nevertheless that story in the
:24:33. > :24:37.Guardian was a solid one and not substantially denied. So you are
:24:38. > :24:46.basing your monetary policy on one on named minister in one story?
:24:47. > :24:51.Basing it on Common sense because monetary union would be in the best
:24:52. > :24:55.interests for Scotland but also overwhelmingly in the interests of
:24:56. > :25:00.the rest of the UK, given their trading relationship with Scotland
:25:01. > :25:08.and the contribution Scotland's exports make. We are having a very
:25:09. > :25:19.good debate and the UK Government and the no campaign, and this is not
:25:20. > :25:25.a criticism, want to talk up in -- uncertainty to make people feel
:25:26. > :25:29.scared, but after independence there will be constructed process of
:25:30. > :25:32.negotiation. Let's stick with the monetary union because most
:25:33. > :25:36.economists agree it would be very good for an independent Scotland to
:25:37. > :25:41.have a monetary union but George Osborne, Ed Balls, Danny Alexander
:25:42. > :25:47.are unequivocal, they say you won't get it. You claim they are bluffing
:25:48. > :25:51.but again you cannot guarantee that so why the risk? I would say the
:25:52. > :25:55.benefits of independence are substantial but I would also say to
:25:56. > :25:59.George Osborne and his counterparts in the other parties that it would
:26:00. > :26:05.be a very brave Chancellor that says to businesses in the rest of the UK
:26:06. > :26:08.that they have to incur unnecessary additional transaction costs of half
:26:09. > :26:11.a very brave Chancellor that says to businesses in the rest of the UK
:26:12. > :26:16.that they have to incur unnecessary additional transaction costs of
:26:17. > :26:20.half. What we are doing is making a case that is based on common sense
:26:21. > :26:25.and voters in Scotland will listen to that case being put forward by
:26:26. > :26:34.the other side as well, and they will come to a judgement of the
:26:35. > :26:37.common-sense position. Let's look at EU membership because you haven t
:26:38. > :26:47.been able to guarantee the monetary union. When President Barroso said
:26:48. > :26:50.that a seamless transition to EU membership for an independent
:26:51. > :26:55.Scotland was anything but certain, and one said it could even be
:26:56. > :27:05.impossible, you dismissed him because he was standing down, but
:27:06. > :27:11.been -- venue EU president says the same, do you dismissed him? What we
:27:12. > :27:16.are doing... I should say at the outset of this, we have said
:27:17. > :27:20.repeatedly to the UK Government let's go jointly and ask for a
:27:21. > :27:24.formal opinion on the EU commission. The EU commission have
:27:25. > :27:31.said they will only do that at this stage if the UK Government ask for
:27:32. > :27:37.it, they are point blank refusing to do that, you have to ask why? It is
:27:38. > :27:43.in their interests to talk up uncertainty. Scotland is an integral
:27:44. > :27:49.part of the European Union, we have been for 40 years, we comply with
:27:50. > :27:54.the rules and regulations... Mr Juncker knows all of that but he
:27:55. > :27:59.still says it will be anything but a seamless transition. He said you
:28:00. > :28:11.could not join the European Union by sending a letter, that is not our
:28:12. > :28:17.proposal. We set down a robust proposal and the timescale we think
:28:18. > :28:22.is reasonable under these circumstances. There are many
:28:23. > :28:28.nationals of other states living in Scotland right now, if we were to be
:28:29. > :28:31.outside of the European Union for any period of time, something the
:28:32. > :28:37.current treaty doesn't even provide for, they would lose their right to
:28:38. > :28:40.stay here. The interests of Scotland and the interests of European Union
:28:41. > :28:45.are in favour of a seamless transition. It comes down to common
:28:46. > :28:45.sense and people in Scotland will make
:28:46. > :28:51.sense and people in Scotland will their own judgement on who is
:28:52. > :28:57.talking the common-sense. What about NATO, two years ago you told
:28:58. > :29:03.Newsnight the SNP's position is that we wouldn't stay in NATO. We had a
:29:04. > :29:07.democratic debate, we looked at whether it would be in the interests
:29:08. > :29:13.of an independent Scotland, which forms a significant part of the
:29:14. > :29:19.territory of the North Atlantic and the party changed its mind. It did
:29:20. > :29:28.so in a thoroughly democratic way. That is the nature of democracy
:29:29. > :29:39.Would you accept the protection of the NATO nuclear umbrella? There is
:29:40. > :29:47.no doubt the SNP's position is that we do not want nuclear weapons in
:29:48. > :29:50.Scotland. That is not what I asked. The world rid themselves of nuclear
:29:51. > :29:55.weapons. One of the interesting point is of the 28 member countries
:29:56. > :30:00.of Natal 25 do not have nuclear weapons. An independent Scotland...
:30:01. > :30:12.I asked if you would accept the nuclear umbrella. The key feature of
:30:13. > :30:18.NATO's military dog train is now clear shrike. We would accept the
:30:19. > :30:24.basis of which NATO is founded but we would argue two things. We want
:30:25. > :30:28.Trident removed from Scotland rather than have a situation where might we
:30:29. > :30:33.are spending ?100 billion over the next generation replacing Trident
:30:34. > :30:38.and we would argue within the international community that the
:30:39. > :30:42.world should move much more quickly to rid itself of nuclear weapons.
:30:43. > :30:47.That is the principal position and won the SNP has held consistently
:30:48. > :30:52.for many years. You would get rid of one of the key parts of the NATO
:30:53. > :30:57.deterrent based in Scotland. You would kick that out. You would not
:30:58. > :31:02.accept all of the club rules because you do not like the idea of nuclear.
:31:03. > :31:07.Why would they like a member like you in? Because Scotland is a
:31:08. > :31:13.significant part of the territory of the North Atlantic. You do not
:31:14. > :31:19.subscribe to the rules. 25 of the member states of NATO are
:31:20. > :31:26.non-nuclear members. You are saying you do not follow the doctrine. NATO
:31:27. > :31:29.has said it wants to move away from reliance on nuclear weapons. An
:31:30. > :31:35.independent Scotland would be entering the majority mainstream of
:31:36. > :31:40.NATO as a country that did not have nuclear weapons. By leading by
:31:41. > :31:44.example our moral authority and encouraging others to do likewise
:31:45. > :31:49.would be increased. Money and oil, the finance minister has said that
:31:50. > :31:53.an independent Scotland would increase public spending by 3% a
:31:54. > :31:58.year. He would pay for that by borrowing. Your First Minister says
:31:59. > :32:03.he is going to stash money in an oil fund. You're going to borrow and
:32:04. > :32:11.save. How does that work? There are two points. Firstly in terms of the
:32:12. > :32:15.outlook for finances and what is one of the central debates of this
:32:16. > :32:19.referendum campaign, austerity that we know will continue if we stay as
:32:20. > :32:24.part of the Westminster system versus prosperity. The economy can
:32:25. > :32:29.afford a higher level of increase in public spending while we continue to
:32:30. > :32:34.have deficit levels at a sustainable level. What is the point of
:32:35. > :32:38.borrowing and saving at the same time? People who have a mortgage and
:32:39. > :33:17.the savings time? People who have a mortgage and
:33:18. > :33:21.be mismanaged or we can decide we are going to manage that resource
:33:22. > :33:28.better in the years to come. Your figures do not add up unless you are
:33:29. > :33:31.about oil prices and revenue and you have been consistently wrong in your
:33:32. > :34:51.predictions. Last year you forecast that revenues
:34:52. > :34:54.predictions. Last year you forecast hear a lot from you and your fellow
:34:55. > :34:57.predictions. Last year you forecast nationalists, you want a
:34:58. > :35:02.Scandinavian style social democracy, you know how to spend the money but
:35:03. > :35:05.you never tell us about social democratic levels of taxation. Also
:35:06. > :35:13.should grizzlies have higher levels of tax in Scotland does at the
:35:14. > :35:20.moment -- all social grizzlies. I want a Scottish style of social
:35:21. > :35:24.democracy. Free education, free medicines and balancing the books
:35:25. > :35:29.every single year. We want to get more people into work in Scotland,
:35:30. > :35:32.raise the level of distribution in the Labour market and make the
:35:33. > :35:38.economy more productive so we are raising the overall tax revenue
:35:39. > :35:41.Over the last 33 years we have generated more taxpayer head of
:35:42. > :35:49.population than is the case and the rest of the UK. Those last 33 years,
:35:50. > :35:52.some of those years oil prices would have been high and in others they
:35:53. > :35:57.would have been law but we take different decisions. A report showed
:35:58. > :36:03.that if we go as part of the Westminster system down the plate --
:36:04. > :36:09.route of replacing Trident then the cost will be as high as ?4 billion
:36:10. > :36:14.every year. Our share of that is the hundred million pounds a year. Let
:36:15. > :36:17.us get access to our own resources so we can make different and better
:36:18. > :36:24.decisions about how to spend the resources we have. You are promising
:36:25. > :36:28.Scandinavian style social democratic levels of public spending but you
:36:29. > :36:36.say you will not need a top rate of tax of 56% which is what Scandinavia
:36:37. > :36:41.has, that all 25%, which is what Scandinavia has and VAT of 15%. You
:36:42. > :36:46.are going to have the spending but none of the taxes that make it
:36:47. > :36:50.possible in Scandinavia. For mischievous reasons you are met --
:36:51. > :36:57.misrepresenting what I am saying. The Scottish economy can afford it
:36:58. > :37:01.and we want to generate more wealth in our economy. We want to use the
:37:02. > :37:06.existing resources Scotland has We are the 14th richest country in the
:37:07. > :37:11.world in terms of what we produce. We do not want to be wasting
:37:12. > :37:15.resources. We want to be spending resources on the things that other
:37:16. > :37:19.priority for the people of Scotland. These are the benefits and the
:37:20. > :37:21.opportunities really get if we take the opportunity of voting yes and
:37:22. > :37:33.becoming independent. Coming up on the Sunday Polhtics
:37:34. > :37:50.here in the South West, campaigners claim people are dying becatse they
:37:51. > :37:53.haven't been able to get a new type And for the next 20 minutes I'm
:37:54. > :37:59.joined by the Labour MP for Exeter, Ben Bradshaw,
:38:00. > :38:00.and the Conservative MP for Welcome, both of you,
:38:01. > :38:04.to the programme. Thousands of public sector workers
:38:05. > :38:07.took their anger against the spending cuts to the streets
:38:08. > :38:10.across the South West this week In a national day of action,
:38:11. > :38:13.teachers, firefighters, health workers and other staff walked out
:38:14. > :38:17.on Thursday in disputes over cuts to Many schools closed completdly while
:38:18. > :38:23.there were mass rallies in Dxeter, Anne`Marie, are these strikds
:38:24. > :38:30.justified, do you think? I think my problem with strhkes is,
:38:31. > :38:33.well, clearly there must be It must be democratic,
:38:34. > :38:40.so you need to be clear it hs being done, really, because that hs
:38:41. > :38:42.the mandate of the union, and indeed And I think the other challdnge to
:38:43. > :38:47.the current way strikes are organised is that the parents don't
:38:48. > :38:50.have a voice, because they `re the ones in many cases who suffer,
:38:51. > :38:53.suddenly having to take timd out You need to the right to strike
:38:54. > :39:01.but you need something that really works and takes account
:39:02. > :39:03.of all stakeholders. I regret the disruption
:39:04. > :39:07.but Anne`Marie is wrong to suggest The turnout was bigger than it was
:39:08. > :39:12.for the election to the Polhce and Crime Commissioner for Devon
:39:13. > :39:14.and Cornwall and actually more than And if Anne Marie's serious
:39:15. > :39:22.and the Tories are serious, as well as vilifying public sector workers
:39:23. > :39:25.making it easy to strike, why don't Well, I don't think we are vilifying
:39:26. > :39:29.and actually it's the Labour Party who has been at the forefront
:39:30. > :39:32.of saying that using the eldctronic process for mainstream elections
:39:33. > :39:34.doesn't really work. I think we've managed perfectly well
:39:35. > :39:38.with the existing system of going to ballot stations and it seems to me
:39:39. > :39:43.that to do it in the workpl`ce. . I think the agenda of the Tory
:39:44. > :39:46.party is absolutely clear hdre. If they get back
:39:47. > :39:48.into government next time, working people and unions in partictlar are
:39:49. > :39:51.in for a very hard time. We want to give everybody
:39:52. > :39:54.a fair chance. Boris Johnson suggested 50% should
:39:55. > :39:58.turn out Would you agree with that,
:39:59. > :40:02.Anne`Marie? The government has made it lore
:40:03. > :40:05.difficult It banned workplace balloting,
:40:06. > :40:09.it won't allow online balloting There's absolutely no reason
:40:10. > :40:11.why it shouldn't do that. As I said, the Police and
:40:12. > :40:15.Crime Commissioner, which Anne Marie Morris supported, for Devon
:40:16. > :40:18.and Cornwall, was elected whth just Well, Ben,
:40:19. > :40:25.you're right to make the colparison but, frankly, those elections, first
:40:26. > :40:29.time round, the turnout was not .. Ed Miliband came under fire this
:40:30. > :40:37.week for neither supporting nor We have huge sympathy for ptblic
:40:38. > :40:43.sector workers, particularlx low paid workers in both the public and
:40:44. > :40:46.private sectors who have borne the No,
:40:47. > :40:53.all strikes are a sign of f`ilure. But these people have seen their
:40:54. > :40:57.living standards fall by 20$ while the wealthiest few have been given a
:40:58. > :41:01.massive tax cut by the government. That is not a fairer way
:41:02. > :41:03.of attacking the deficit. Campaigners in the South West claim
:41:04. > :41:09.people are dying because thdy haven't been able to get a new type
:41:10. > :41:13.of cancer treatment on the NHS. The Prime Minister is coming under
:41:14. > :41:15.increasing pressure to look into why there has been a 70% drop
:41:16. > :41:19.in the use of a high`tech form Six years ago,
:41:20. > :41:24.Jennifer Woodford from Falmouth paid ?15,000 and travelled to Grdece to
:41:25. > :41:28.have this treatment, Jennifer Woodford believes
:41:29. > :41:41.that spotting this newspaper Back in 2008, she was told
:41:42. > :41:46.she had two years to live. She had
:41:47. > :41:48.an inoperable tumour close to her But then she read
:41:49. > :41:55.about a machine with a robotic arm that delivers a powerful radioactive
:41:56. > :41:59.beam with pinpoint accuracy. We saw an article about Cybdr Knife
:42:00. > :42:02.and we took this to the consultant and he said, go
:42:03. > :42:09.for it, you've got nothing to lose. This treatment wasn't avail`ble
:42:10. > :42:12.in the UK at the time so she spent ?15,000 getting it
:42:13. > :42:17.in Greece instead. Had I not had Cyber Knife, H would
:42:18. > :42:24.have had a very slow, drawn`out painful death, which would have
:42:25. > :42:28.cost the NHS thousands and thousands Machines that can deliver this type
:42:29. > :42:38.of stereotactic radiotherapx treatment are now available
:42:39. > :42:43.in this country. Derriford Hospital in Plymouth
:42:44. > :42:46.first considered buying the equipment four years ago
:42:47. > :42:49.but a machine was only inst`lled 60 patients have been treatdd
:42:50. > :42:52.so far. But campaigners say
:42:53. > :42:55.despite the service now being more widely available
:42:56. > :42:58.in this country fewer peopld are NHS England took over responsibility
:42:59. > :43:05.for paying for it, effectivdly, from the 1st of April last xear
:43:06. > :43:08.2013, and ever since that thme, There are people going all over the
:43:09. > :43:14.world to be treated by this stuff. We've got the machines
:43:15. > :43:17.in quite a lot of places. Very often, they have been bought
:43:18. > :43:20.by charity donations. NHS England says
:43:21. > :43:22.while there is evidence that this type of radiotherapy works well
:43:23. > :43:26.on some lung cancers, there is not so much evidence that
:43:27. > :43:29.it works as well on others. They say the NHS budget isn't
:43:30. > :43:33.limitless and they have to prioritise funding on treatlent
:43:34. > :43:36.that is already proven to work. This week, Tessa Munt asked
:43:37. > :43:39.the Prime Minister to meet her to discuss why there has been ` 70
:43:40. > :43:43.decrease in the number of c`ncers What we have done is introdtced
:43:44. > :43:50.the Cancer Drugs Fund which is not just for drugs
:43:51. > :43:54.but also for innovative tre`tment. I know there have been changes
:43:55. > :43:57.as well in the way that radhotherapy is carried out and new technology
:43:58. > :44:01.that is being used, which m`y be part of the explanation for the
:44:02. > :44:04.figures that she gives, but I'm very Meanwhile, though,
:44:05. > :44:08.campaigners fear the governlent is I can't understand why,
:44:09. > :44:15.when it's a matter of life or death, people aren't being referred
:44:16. > :44:19.for this life`saving treatmdnt. You know, I know people are
:44:20. > :44:28.dying who need this treatment. Jennifer Woodford ending
:44:29. > :44:30.that report there. Ben, you were Health Ministdr
:44:31. > :44:34.for a time under Labour. We've got the machines here
:44:35. > :44:36.and yet NHS England isn't ftnding Well, it sounds very worrying and
:44:37. > :44:43.particularly disappointing given that the Prime Minister acttally
:44:44. > :44:48.engaged with the English rugby star Lawrence Dallaglio to help work with
:44:49. > :44:51.NHS England ` his mother, of course, died of cancer ` to spread out
:44:52. > :44:55.and roll out this treatment and he seems to have changed
:44:56. > :44:59.his mind in the last year or so I can only think because
:45:00. > :45:02.of the huge financial crisis that is affecting not just NHS Engl`nd
:45:03. > :45:05.but trusts here in the South West. Most of our trusts are now
:45:06. > :45:07.in huge deficit. Devon CCG and local hospitals are
:45:08. > :45:11.in the red seriously, so they are having to make very
:45:12. > :45:14.difficult decisions like thhs. Anne Marie,
:45:15. > :45:16.is this the cost`cutting me`sures Actually, in many ways,
:45:17. > :45:23.I share Ben's concerns. I had a constituent come to me,
:45:24. > :45:25.he had prostate cancer, so this wasn't life and death,
:45:26. > :45:29.but it was all about, you know, incontinence and fertility, so he
:45:30. > :45:32.went abroad to get the treatment. But actually Cyber Knife was
:45:33. > :45:36.developed in my constituencx so I know the inventor and I know
:45:37. > :45:40.the team so, for me, it is ` great shame that something inventdd
:45:41. > :45:43.in Britain isn't really being used. It's a shame that is the case
:45:44. > :45:48.but for somebody who needs ht for But I think what's happened here
:45:49. > :45:53.is the procurement mechanisl. When I've spoken to the people
:45:54. > :45:56.involved in this what they have said is the way procurement oper`te at
:45:57. > :45:59.the moment, the large organhsations are procuring from big organisations
:46:00. > :46:01.that can provide all of Hang on,
:46:02. > :46:06.we've got machines in the hospitals, often bought by charities,
:46:07. > :46:09.which are just not being usdd. Even with procurement, therd is a
:46:10. > :46:13.problem in the system, isn't there? That seems to show
:46:14. > :46:15.the NHS isn't working in thhs case. What you're saying is absolttely
:46:16. > :46:20.right, it is criminal that they re not being used, and systems need
:46:21. > :46:23.to be put in place to changd that. I agree with Ben and you on that
:46:24. > :46:29.but I don't think the probldm is But I'm absolutely convinced that
:46:30. > :46:34.David is going to come under a lot of pressure from all
:46:35. > :46:38.of us to make sure that cancer is properly treated, particularly if it
:46:39. > :46:40.is a product which, frankly, has Ben, does this sort of thing make
:46:41. > :46:45.you worry about the direction I think this is part
:46:46. > :46:51.of a deteriorating picture. We are already seeing waiting times
:46:52. > :46:53.and waiting lists for routine operations grow exponentially longer
:46:54. > :46:57.than they have been for six years. We are seeing much longer w`its
:46:58. > :47:00.at A departments. We are beginning to see
:47:01. > :47:04.the impact of the government's disastrous ?3 billion reorg`nisation
:47:05. > :47:08.of the health service. There were problems under L`bour,
:47:09. > :47:10.weren't there? There were actually budget
:47:11. > :47:13.crises under Labour. Even with a surplus
:47:14. > :47:16.in the system there were problems. Difficult decisions
:47:17. > :47:17.always have to be made. The NHS does not have
:47:18. > :47:20.a limitless pot. When we left government,
:47:21. > :47:22.public satisfaction with the NHS was at record levels and
:47:23. > :47:26.waiting times were at record lows. Those are both now going
:47:27. > :47:28.in the wrong direction. Are you worrying, Anne Marid Morris,
:47:29. > :47:31.about where No, I think the NHS is in vdry
:47:32. > :47:36.safe hands with a Conservathve government and actually herd we
:47:37. > :47:39.have statistics versus stathstics. We are almost rerunning what
:47:40. > :47:42.happened in the House of Colmons in terms of the statistics produced
:47:43. > :47:45.by David and the statistics produced Basically we are both
:47:46. > :47:49.saying different things. According to our research,
:47:50. > :47:54.the waiting time issue is actually better than it was under Labour
:47:55. > :47:56.which is not what you The truth of it is,
:47:57. > :48:00.where do you measure it? I think the difference is it is
:48:01. > :48:03.about making sure that people, when they actually come in and fhrst
:48:04. > :48:06.interface, they get treated quickly. If you look at it at that ldvel
:48:07. > :48:10.certainly, our record is better Talking about statistics,
:48:11. > :48:12.I'll give you some. We have, here, the third lowest
:48:13. > :48:16.cancer survival rate in Europe and many hospitals are using this
:48:17. > :48:19.type of treatment routinely. One hospital
:48:20. > :48:21.in France treats more patients with this kind of radiotherapy than all
:48:22. > :48:25.hospitals in England combindd. I agree with you, and it
:48:26. > :48:30.clearly has to be sorted out. But a lot of this,
:48:31. > :48:32.it's not just about treatment, If you actually look
:48:33. > :48:36.at the research, you will see one of our challenges
:48:37. > :48:39.is we do not diagnose early enough. I was talking to NHS England
:48:40. > :48:42.earlier today to say what You have seen, I'm sure, thdre was
:48:43. > :48:47.one lady in my constituency, she had been to her GP 19 times before
:48:48. > :48:51.she then had to go privatelx. I spoke to NHS England and said this
:48:52. > :48:56.has to be sorted out and thdy said, yes, we are getting a team together
:48:57. > :48:59.to look at how we can work together Sarah Wallace, in your neighbouring
:49:00. > :49:04.constituency, she now chairs the Commons Health Committed,
:49:05. > :49:06.ex`GP, says the NHS does nedd more It is an important issue, isn't it,
:49:07. > :49:14.the NHS? There is nothing more important
:49:15. > :49:21.than health and education. Clearly, if there was
:49:22. > :49:26.a bottomless pit of cash, you would I think the important thing is to
:49:27. > :49:31.make sure we use the money we have more effectively
:49:32. > :49:34.and I think that is the discussion Ben, very briefly, do you think we
:49:35. > :49:39.may have to face facts that soon we could have to start paying
:49:40. > :49:43.for things like a visit to the GP? I think people would be
:49:44. > :49:45.against that. I think the principle that the NHS
:49:46. > :49:48.is there for people when they need it is absolutely
:49:49. > :49:51.paramount, certainly for thd Labour Party, and that would be very unfair
:49:52. > :49:55.on poorer people, for example. But we didn't need to have this huge
:49:56. > :49:57.reorganisation That's where a lot
:49:58. > :50:03.of the money has gone. I think we could also much better
:50:04. > :50:06.integrate health and social care. And we could deliver more
:50:07. > :50:09.for the same amount of monex Tourism businesses in Cornw`ll claim
:50:10. > :50:19.a ban on term time holidays for In September new legislation came
:50:20. > :50:25.into force introducing fines for parents who take their children
:50:26. > :50:28.out of school in term time. But tourism leaders say confusion
:50:29. > :50:32.over the law is costing thel money and they've have written to Michael
:50:33. > :50:35.Gove calling for it to be changed. Justin Spreckley lets 12
:50:36. > :50:41.self`catering holiday cottages In previous years,
:50:42. > :50:47.the place has been full of families with young children
:50:48. > :50:50.but this year is different. We've got a three`bedroom and
:50:51. > :50:53.a one`bedroom cottage free `nd we the one other family with school`age
:50:54. > :51:02.children here are from Scotland Since the government changed
:51:03. > :51:06.the law in September, many families in England have been
:51:07. > :51:11.put off by the threat of fines. We've experienced changes
:51:12. > :51:15.in our statistics last year against this year of a 27% drop in families
:51:16. > :51:20.coming during the school term time. I'm sure
:51:21. > :51:24.the government's legislation was well intended but did they `ctually
:51:25. > :51:26.look at the implications? In Looe, families with school`age
:51:27. > :51:33.children seem few and far bdtween. Looe is doing very well
:51:34. > :51:36.at the moment with the numbdr of people here
:51:37. > :51:40.but we need to those familids which You'll see young families whth
:51:41. > :51:48.tots and you'll see older couples. It's the fact that larger f`milies
:51:49. > :51:52.are missing in the demographics This family from Birmingham
:51:53. > :51:59.visited Cornwall last year, too Mum
:52:00. > :52:02.and dad have brought six`ye`r`old Jack and nine`year`old Tamara back
:52:03. > :52:06.during term time to save money. They have perfect
:52:07. > :52:08.attendance records. They don't have sick days,
:52:09. > :52:10.they are not late, We work hard to get them to
:52:11. > :52:18.school in the right fashion. I think of it
:52:19. > :52:20.as someone who is continuously doing He is in year one,
:52:21. > :52:25.she's in year four. The irony is while Cornwall has
:52:26. > :52:33.tended not to fine parents who take their children on holiday dtring the
:52:34. > :52:35.school term, tourism businesses here say they are suffering becatse other
:52:36. > :52:41.local education authorities do. Recent figures show that whhlst
:52:42. > :52:45.nobody was fined in Cornwall during the current academic year,
:52:46. > :52:49.900 parents were fined in Ddvon Tourism leaders years say it's this
:52:50. > :52:53.kind of inconsistency which is causing confusion
:52:54. > :52:55.and they have written to the Education Secretary calling
:52:56. > :53:01.for a more common`sense approach. The problem is I think therd's not
:53:02. > :53:07.enough clarification for the head teachers or parents,
:53:08. > :53:09.even the councillors, and everybody So parents are frightened
:53:10. > :53:14.of taking them out of school, heads are frightened of letting them.
:53:15. > :53:18.It needs to be sorted. These people have been encotraged
:53:19. > :53:24.over a number of years to accommodate famhlies
:53:25. > :53:30.and the accommodation is now empty So we have to look
:53:31. > :53:36.for a solution because I can't have The Department for Education
:53:37. > :53:43.maintains that local authorhties must work with schools to sdt
:53:44. > :53:47.criteria for issuing fines and that they should take
:53:48. > :53:50.a tough stance on tackling `bsence. Few here would argue with
:53:51. > :53:53.the principle. They say in practice
:53:54. > :53:58.the confusion must be cleardd up. Anne Marie, I know you are
:53:59. > :54:02.a big champion of small bushnesses. Will you push to have
:54:03. > :54:06.this problem cleared up? It needs clearing up becausd clearly
:54:07. > :54:09.we are very dependent on totrism in the South West but I think there are
:54:10. > :54:13.two pieces to the jigsaw puzzle and That was the fact that in Scotland
:54:14. > :54:20.they have different times If you look at Germany and France,
:54:21. > :54:25.Germany divides the country into five different regions and they
:54:26. > :54:28.take holidays at different times. If we did that, we would not have
:54:29. > :54:33.this real concentration of just at one time of year.
:54:34. > :54:36.That would help... This has been suggested for years,
:54:37. > :54:40.hasn't it? I think it is the absolute
:54:41. > :54:46.requirement to try to ensurd kids get the time in school they need
:54:47. > :54:50.and get better results, bec`use it is proven that absenteeism reduces
:54:51. > :54:53.academic success. But we must look
:54:54. > :54:56.at different ways of doing ht. I would agree with the individuals
:54:57. > :55:00.in your clip that we need some clarity because that, in part,
:55:01. > :55:03.is why we've got this difference We need it to be clear that
:55:04. > :55:17.the headteacher is able to look at the individual circumstances
:55:18. > :55:19.of that family and make a sdnsible, informed decision.
:55:20. > :55:33.The problem is... Do you support Michael Gove in this
:55:34. > :55:37.move to fine parents? The more you take children out of school in term
:55:38. > :55:41.time, the more their achievdment suffer. I don't think we should
:55:42. > :55:47.encourage families to take oldies in term time. Some people in the clip
:55:48. > :55:53.seems to be suggesting that. It is unfair on law`abiding familhes who
:55:54. > :55:57.pay the full price. The majority of families don't do this, thex pay the
:55:58. > :56:01.full price. Labour is committed to introducing a German type sxstem
:56:02. > :56:05.where holidays are staggered over a three or four month period hn the
:56:06. > :56:10.summer so no one part of thd country is on holiday at the same thme. That
:56:11. > :56:15.is also the answer to getting prices down. Do you think this is taking
:56:16. > :56:20.power away from parents. If children are taken abroad, and they lay
:56:21. > :56:26.otherwise not be able to if it was to expensive, it is an amazhng
:56:27. > :56:34.educational experience, new language. Parents that make an
:56:35. > :56:39.educational case for a trip and make it in good time... That is not
:56:40. > :58:26.exceptional circumstances. Headteachers use their discretion.
:58:27. > :58:29.And MPs have been discussing new laws to tackle slavery
:58:30. > :58:32.following a campaign by the former Conservative MP for Totnes.
:58:33. > :58:37.They're probably within a mhle of where we live.
:58:38. > :58:50.They have been found in Plylouth, Exeter, Torbay.
:58:51. > :58:56.That is our round`up of the political week. This growth fund
:58:57. > :59:02.money to help small as this is, how can people get their hands on that
:59:03. > :59:09.and how soon is it coming? Ht is being sorted out at the momdnt. A
:59:10. > :59:14.number of businesses are benefiting. The sausage company in my
:59:15. > :59:21.constituency is benefiting. It is nearly ?19 million. It incltdes
:59:22. > :59:26.Bristol, which means we get less in the far south`west. Is that a
:59:27. > :59:32.problem? We should see how ht finally gets carved up. The detail
:59:33. > :59:35.is yet to be worked out, sole has`been but the rest are still to
:59:36. > :59:39.be looked at. It is a large amount of money and the important thing is
:59:40. > :59:47.that it is good news for thd south`west. Any regional devolution
:59:48. > :59:53.of power is good but this is far less than Labour is proposing, under
:59:54. > :59:57.plans which would give more decision`making to the regions. It
:59:58. > :00:01.is about three times more than the government proposes. It is not new
:00:02. > :00:08.money, just devolving money from London the same as the
:00:09. > :00:15.Conservatives. Lord Heseltine, who recommended this, our proposals are
:00:16. > :00:26.closer to his levels than the government's. I think there is a
:00:27. > :00:34.halfway house between both of us there. Thanks to our guests. Now we
:00:35. > :00:35.go back to Andrew. You can `lways watch the programme on iPlaxer
:00:36. > :00:35.during will keep a bit safer. That is all
:00:36. > :00:48.the time we have. So, plenty happening in Parliament
:00:49. > :00:51.this coming week, including a controversial bill to make
:00:52. > :01:12.so-called assisted dying legal and Lord Carey has intervened in the
:01:13. > :01:17.assisted dying debate. Will it make a difference? It will make a
:01:18. > :01:25.difference because we have established in the House of Lords, I
:01:26. > :01:29.am not sure who they speak for and why they should have a privileged
:01:30. > :01:35.position, but he was a big opponent and has made a change of heart. The
:01:36. > :01:45.fact that the Daily Mail has printed this shows this is a big
:01:46. > :01:51.intervention. The Bill being pushed through, is it now on the agenda? I
:01:52. > :01:56.think it is. There are international examples of assisted dying
:01:57. > :02:01.elsewhere. The state of Oregon passed a Bill similar to this in the
:02:02. > :02:06.1990s and things have not got out of control. That has not been an
:02:07. > :02:12.expansion or abuse. It has settled down and become part of the
:02:13. > :02:18.furniture. That makes it easier for this Bill, to make the case for it.
:02:19. > :02:22.Religious people may still have a principled objection but most other
:02:23. > :02:26.people have a practical objection, which is how to put in place
:02:27. > :02:31.safeguards to deal with unscrupulous relatives or anyone else who wants
:02:32. > :02:34.to abuse this right? Once a controversial issue is only being
:02:35. > :02:39.opposed for practical reasons it is on its way to getting its way. What
:02:40. > :02:44.is the division, is it the Church against everybody else? Is it a
:02:45. > :02:50.right and left division? What is stopping it? It is a very difficult
:02:51. > :02:55.moral issue and there are people who can have genuinely held Christian
:02:56. > :03:01.beliefs or non-Christian beliefs who can be on both sides. I think that
:03:02. > :03:05.the Lord Carey intervention is potentially a game changer not just
:03:06. > :03:09.because he is a former Archbishop of Canterbury but because he was on the
:03:10. > :03:16.Evan Jellicoe side of the Church of England. That is quite a big move.
:03:17. > :03:22.The response was to say, please withdraw your bell and let us have a
:03:23. > :03:27.royal Commission. The Supreme Court kicked the ball back to Parliament
:03:28. > :03:32.when they rejected the cases of three people who had been taking the
:03:33. > :03:35.case and said, we could say that banning the right to life is against
:03:36. > :03:40.the European Court of Human Rights, but it is a moral issue and an issue
:03:41. > :03:50.for Parliament. Parliament needs to decide. The data act that is going
:03:51. > :03:56.to be pushed through Parliament In record time. To comply with a
:03:57. > :04:03.European court judgement. Tom Watson and David Davis, some dissent. Are
:04:04. > :04:10.you so prized with how united the establishment, left, right and
:04:11. > :04:15.centre is? No. There is a great quote saying this has been enacted
:04:16. > :04:19.under the something must be done act and that captures it exactly. Even
:04:20. > :04:26.Cameron says he does not want to look people in the eye and say that
:04:27. > :04:31.he did not do everything he could. There is no end to the power of
:04:32. > :04:34.surveillance. It is all was about drawing a distinction. I am always
:04:35. > :04:41.suspicious when politicians look something up and said, we have all
:04:42. > :04:45.agreed. Are there at the centre is right or is the political
:04:46. > :04:54.establishment right? I think the establishment is right. I think it
:04:55. > :04:58.is stronger than other issues. We are in a unique position where all
:04:59. > :05:02.three political parties have relatively recent experience of
:05:03. > :05:06.government so they now that security threats are not made up by
:05:07. > :05:16.unscrupulous people. The legislation being proposed is not dramatic, it
:05:17. > :05:19.is to fill a gap that was created. I do not see the political
:05:20. > :05:25.controversy. All three political parties support it. David Davis and
:05:26. > :05:34.Liberty are against that, and always are. Would you not have expected...
:05:35. > :05:41.The Lib Dems are in government, but a bit more rebellion on the Labour
:05:42. > :05:43.backbenches? There is no political controversy put outside parliament
:05:44. > :05:52.there's quite a lot of controversy about this. My paper has taken an
:05:53. > :05:59.interest in this. It is interesting, it does not feel, it is not a
:06:00. > :06:04.1950s, three public school boys setting, let us have this deal. The
:06:05. > :06:09.Liberal Democrats and Labour have serious questions. There's going to
:06:10. > :06:18.be a sunset clause that will run out in 2016. The Liberal Democrats, who
:06:19. > :06:22.asked pretty tough questions, have said there are assurances. Ed
:06:23. > :06:25.Miliband did not go to public school.
:06:26. > :06:28.For many English football fans, tonight's World Cup final presents
:06:29. > :06:31.How do you pick between two traditional foes
:06:32. > :06:34.Well, if you're a political obsessive, like these
:06:35. > :06:37.three, you could always back the nation according to how it votes.
:06:38. > :06:40.The website LabourList has produced a political guide to the tournament.
:06:41. > :06:53.At the beginning of the tournament, it was a fairly balanced playing
:06:54. > :06:59.field politically with 15 left wing and 17 right-wing countries. England
:07:00. > :07:04.found themselves isolated in a group with three left-wing countries. That
:07:05. > :07:08.was the least of their problems There was a clear domination of
:07:09. > :07:11.democratic regimes over authoritarian with only six of
:07:12. > :07:19.oratory and countries making it through to the finals and the only
:07:20. > :07:25.all authoritarian tie was dubbed the worst match of the World Cup. By the
:07:26. > :07:30.second round 16 teams remained. The left had a clear advantage with
:07:31. > :07:33.nine, seven from the right and authoritarian countries all but
:07:34. > :07:40.wiped out. Two representatives remained. Both were beaten by
:07:41. > :07:48.European democracies. By the semi-finals, all was even Stephen. A
:07:49. > :07:52.right-wing Protestant Europe taking on Catholics South America. With one
:07:53. > :07:57.victory apiece, Germany knocking out Brazil and Argentina beating the
:07:58. > :08:02.Dutch, tonight's final repeats that pattern. Who will win? Angela
:08:03. > :08:11.Merkel's Germany or Argentina? We're joined now
:08:12. > :08:25.by Britain's only Labour adviser Should we read political
:08:26. > :08:28.significance in to the fact that the only time England has won the World
:08:29. > :08:35.Cup was under a Labour government? Of course. The problem is we did not
:08:36. > :08:39.qualify for Euro 2008 when it was a Labour government. We have had some
:08:40. > :08:44.pretty shoddy results under a Labour government. As someone under the
:08:45. > :08:50.left, are you backing Argentina Absolutely not. I do not think it
:08:51. > :09:00.has anything to do with politics. It is a bit of fun. People should
:09:01. > :09:04.choose it is Don Hoop plays the best football and the Germans have been
:09:05. > :09:09.fantastic. They were great in 2 10 as well. They started this model in
:09:10. > :09:15.2008 and that is the sort of thing people should be supporting. Who
:09:16. > :09:20.should a Eurosceptic support? I would not say Argentina because that
:09:21. > :09:25.is the country that has tried to seize British sovereign territory
:09:26. > :09:31.within my lifetime. You were not around for the Blitz. Believe it or
:09:32. > :09:35.not, I was not. There is a strong political case to support Germany.
:09:36. > :09:48.They are probably going to win the World Cup with a clear of -- with
:09:49. > :09:52.players of Polish origin. That sort of cultural change they have forced
:09:53. > :09:59.themselves to go through... You talk about them being right wing, but in
:10:00. > :10:07.fact the way that the German league is structured, and I am an expert,
:10:08. > :10:11.is based on ownership. It is very different from the Premier League.
:10:12. > :10:19.It is about football as a usual good. The ticket prices are lower.
:10:20. > :10:26.The fans are involved in running the club. It is a model that all English
:10:27. > :10:32.football clubs should emulate. Germany had a strong football team
:10:33. > :10:39.under centre right governments and centre left governments and a
:10:40. > :10:47.coalition. A strong football team and a strong economy. The
:10:48. > :10:51.Conservative MP who is the arch Eurosceptic wanted to get us out of
:10:52. > :10:57.the European Union and was for a few weeks ago when people were making
:10:58. > :11:01.jokes about Jean-Claude Juncker he was outraged and said you should not
:11:02. > :11:08.do that, so he could happily support Germany. What was interesting about
:11:09. > :11:12.the authoritarian and democratic regimes, what is great is that the
:11:13. > :11:24.World Cup is run by this open and democratic organisation Fifa. It is
:11:25. > :11:32.similar to the EU in many regards. Two countries led by women. Maybe
:11:33. > :11:38.gender is the thing. We did not win under Margaret Thatcher. There's one
:11:39. > :11:46.big difference with the EU, you cannot flog six Dom Acta gets to go
:11:47. > :11:58.to a European summit. Did you know that Italy won two world cups under
:11:59. > :12:00.Mussolini? Can we draw any conclusions between a political
:12:01. > :12:07.system and the performance of the football team? You can draw certain
:12:08. > :12:12.parallels between maybe national cliches, so the Germans are
:12:13. > :12:17.efficient and effective, which might reflect and the English are very
:12:18. > :12:21.polite so we let everyone score first and go into the second round.
:12:22. > :12:27.We put ourselves at the back of the queue. Is England going to qualify
:12:28. > :12:37.for the European? We are going to win the European Championship. The
:12:38. > :12:45.first country Scotland have to play is Germany. What could possibly go
:12:46. > :12:56.wrong? Who is going to win? Germany. Germany. I am going to put a few bob
:12:57. > :13:03.on Argentina. Are you going to be watching? Absolutely. Thank you
:13:04. > :13:08.This is the last Sunday Politics for the summer.
:13:09. > :13:11.But we'll be back in early autumn and our first programme will be live
:13:12. > :13:17.from Scotland, the weekend before the referendum
:13:18. > :13:22.The Daily Politics is back tomorrow at noon and we'll bring you
:13:23. > :13:25.the last PMQs before the summer on Wednesday morning from 11:30am.
:13:26. > :13:29.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics, unless