:00:37. > :00:42.Welcome to the Sunday Politics, coming to you live from Edinburgh.
:00:43. > :00:44.Terrorists who use the name Islamic State have carried out
:00:45. > :00:53.their threat to murder the British aid worker, David Haines.
:00:54. > :00:56.They released a video late last night, showing a masked man
:00:57. > :01:02.beheading Mr Haines, who was taken captive in Syria 18 months ago.
:01:03. > :01:04.The jihadist group have already beheaded two American journalists.
:01:05. > :01:06.Now it's threatening the life of a second British hostage.
:01:07. > :01:09.David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil.
:01:10. > :01:12.As we speak he's chairing a meeting of the Cabinet's COBRA
:01:13. > :01:15.President Obama said the US stood shoulder to shoulder
:01:16. > :01:23.Alex Salmond says Scotland "stands on the cusp of history" as
:01:24. > :01:25.he predicts a historic and substantial victory in
:01:26. > :01:33.As the latest polls show the two sides neck and neck,
:01:34. > :01:35.I'll ask Yes campaigner and socialist Tommy Sheridan about his
:01:36. > :01:43.And after last week's last-minute interventions from Gordon Brown
:01:44. > :01:45.David Cameron, Ed Miliband and big business, I'll ask
:01:46. > :01:55.pro-unionist George Galloway whether it's enough to win over waverers.
:01:56. > :01:58.In the south`west, could thd Scottish referendum pave thd
:01:59. > :02:12.step closer back to Parliament. Is it a lame-duck administration?
:02:13. > :02:15.Late last night, as most folk were preparing for bed, news broke that
:02:16. > :02:18.Islamic State extremists had carried out their threat to murder the
:02:19. > :02:23.The group released a video, similar to the ones in which two American
:02:24. > :02:24.journalists were decapitated, showing a masked man apparently
:02:25. > :02:28.beheading Mr Haines who was taken captive in Syria last year.
:02:29. > :02:31.The terrorist, who has a southern British accent,
:02:32. > :02:35.also threatened the life of a second hostage from the UK
:02:36. > :02:37.Mr Haines is the third Westerner to be killed
:02:38. > :02:42.His family have paid tribute to his humanitarian work; they say he
:02:43. > :02:49.David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil, and said
:02:50. > :02:52.his heart went out to Mr Haines family, who had shown extraordinary
:02:53. > :03:01.Mr Cameron went on to say, "We will do everything in our power
:03:02. > :03:04.to hunt down these murderers and ensure they face justice,
:03:05. > :03:08.Mr Haines was born in England and brought up in Scotland.
:03:09. > :03:12.Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond condemned the killing on the Marr
:03:13. > :03:27.Well, it's an act of unspeakable barbarism that we have seen.
:03:28. > :03:32.Obviously our condolences go to the family members of David Haynes who
:03:33. > :03:39.have borne this with such fortitude in recent months -- David
:03:40. > :03:41.Alex Salmond was also asked whether he supported military action
:03:42. > :03:54.Haines there is no reason to believe whatsoever that China or Russia or
:03:55. > :03:58.any country will see their will to deal with this barbarism. There is a
:03:59. > :04:02.will for effective, international, legal action but it must come in
:04:03. > :04:08.that fashion, and I would urge that to be a consideration to develop a
:04:09. > :04:10.collective response to what is a threat to humanity.
:04:11. > :04:11.Our security correspondent Gordon Corera joins me now
:04:12. > :04:24.Gordon, as we speak, the Cobra emergency meeting is meeting yet
:04:25. > :04:29.again. It meets a lot these days. I would suggest that the options
:04:30. > :04:33.facing this committee and Mr Cameron are pretty limited. That's right. I
:04:34. > :04:39.think they are extremely limited. They have been all along in these
:04:40. > :04:42.hostage situations. We know, for instance, that British government
:04:43. > :04:47.policy is not to pay ransom is to kidnappers. Other Europeans states
:04:48. > :04:52.are thought to have done so to get hostages released, and also not to
:04:53. > :04:57.make substantive policy concessions to the groups, so while there might
:04:58. > :05:00.be contact, there won't be a lot of options left. We know the US in the
:05:01. > :05:09.past has looked at rescue missions and in July on operation to free the
:05:10. > :05:12.hostages, landing at the oil facility in Syria but finding no one
:05:13. > :05:17.there. If you look at the options, they are not great. That is the
:05:18. > :05:25.difficult situation which Cobra will have been discussing the last hour.
:05:26. > :05:28.Does this make it more likely, because it might have the direction
:05:29. > :05:35.the government was going in any way, that we join with the Americans in
:05:36. > :05:41.perhaps the regional allies in air strikes against Islamic State, not
:05:42. > :05:44.just in Iraq, but also in Syria We heard from President Obama outlining
:05:45. > :05:46.his strategy against Islamic State last week when he talked about
:05:47. > :05:52.building a coalition, about authorising air strikes. And
:05:53. > :05:57.training troops. We are still waiting to hear what exact role the
:05:58. > :06:08.UK will play in that. We know it will play a role because it has been
:06:09. > :06:12.arming the fishmonger forces but the question is, will it actually
:06:13. > :06:17.conduct military strikes in Iraq -- arming the passion are there. We
:06:18. > :06:29.have not got a clear answer from government and that is something
:06:30. > :06:32.where they are ours to discuss what was around the table. It's possible
:06:33. > :06:35.we might learn some more today as a result of the Cobra meeting, but I
:06:36. > :06:40.think the government will be wanting to not be seen to suddenly rushed to
:06:41. > :06:45.a completely different policy as a result of one incident, however
:06:46. > :06:48.terrible it is. Whether it hardens their reserve -- resolved to play
:06:49. > :06:53.more active role in the coalition, that's possible, but we have to wait
:06:54. > :07:00.see to get the detail. -- wait and see. What the whole country would
:07:01. > :07:03.like to see would be British and American special forces going in and
:07:04. > :07:09.getting these guys. I think that would unite the nation. But that is
:07:10. > :07:13.very difficult, isn't it? It is As you saw with a rescue mission a few
:07:14. > :07:16.months ago, the problem is getting actionable intelligence on the
:07:17. > :07:19.ground at a particular moment. The theory is that the group of
:07:20. > :07:23.kidnappers are moving the hostages may be even every or few days, so
:07:24. > :07:28.you need intelligence and quickly and then you need to be able to get
:07:29. > :07:31.the team onto the ground into that time frame. That is clearly a
:07:32. > :07:34.possibility and something they will be looking at, but it certainly
:07:35. > :07:40.challenging, particularly when you have a group like this operating
:07:41. > :07:43.within its own state, effectively, and knowing that other people are
:07:44. > :07:48.looking very hard for it and doing everything they can to hide. Gordon,
:07:49. > :07:50.thank you very much. Clegg dropped everything and headed
:07:51. > :07:54.to Scotland when a poll last Sunday gave the YES vote its first ever
:07:55. > :08:01.lead in this prolonged referendum If their reaction looked
:08:02. > :08:04.like panic, that's because it was. Until last weekend,
:08:05. > :08:06.though the polls had been narrowing, the consensus was still that NO
:08:07. > :08:09.would carry the day. The new consensus is that
:08:10. > :08:22.it's too close to call. If we look back at the beginning of
:08:23. > :08:26.the year, public opinion in Scotland was fairly settled. The no campaign
:08:27. > :08:30.had a commanding lead across the opinion polls, excluding the
:08:31. > :08:36.undecided voters. At one point, at the end of last year, an average of
:08:37. > :08:41.63% backed the no campaign and only 37% supported a yes vote. As we move
:08:42. > :08:46.into 2014 and up to this week, you can see a clear trend emerging as
:08:47. > :08:49.the lead for the no campaign gets narrower and narrower and the
:08:50. > :08:53.average of the most recent polls has the contest hanging in the balance.
:08:54. > :08:59.There was a poll a week ago that put the Yes campaign in the lead for the
:09:00. > :09:03.first time, 51% against 49%, but that lead was not reflected in the
:09:04. > :09:12.other polls last week. For polls were published last night, one by
:09:13. > :09:19.Salvation, for the macro-2 campaign -- Better Together campaign, and
:09:20. > :09:23.there was another that gave a one percentage point different. ICM have
:09:24. > :09:29.the yes campaign back in the lead at 54% and the no campaign at 46%, but
:09:30. > :09:34.their sample size was 705 Scottish adults, smaller than usual. Another
:09:35. > :09:45.suggests that the contest remains on a knife edge with 49.4% against
:09:46. > :09:51.50.6%. When fed into the poll of polls the figures average out with
:09:52. > :09:55.yes at 49% and polls -- no at 5 %. But some people think 18% are
:09:56. > :09:58.undecided, and it is how they vote gets -- when they get to the polling
:09:59. > :10:00.booths that could make all the difference.
:10:01. > :10:04.campaigner and Respect Party MP George Galloway.
:10:05. > :10:12.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Big business, big oil, big banks, the
:10:13. > :10:17.Tories, the Orange order, all against Scottish independence. You
:10:18. > :10:19.sure you are on right side? Yes because the interests of working
:10:20. > :10:23.people are in staying together. This is a troubled moment in a marriage,
:10:24. > :10:29.a very long marriage, in which some good things and bad things have been
:10:30. > :10:32.achieved together. And there is no doubt that the crockery is being
:10:33. > :10:36.thrown around the house of the minute. But I believe that the
:10:37. > :10:39.underlying interests of working people are on working on the
:10:40. > :10:43.relationship rather than divorce. I have been divorced. It's a very
:10:44. > :10:47.messy, acrimonious, bitter affair and it's particularly bad for the
:10:48. > :10:53.children will stop that's why I am here. You talk about working people,
:10:54. > :10:55.and particularly Scottish working people, they seem to have concluded
:10:56. > :11:00.that the social democracy they want to create cannot now be done in a UK
:11:01. > :11:06.context. Why should they not have a shot of going it alone? Because the
:11:07. > :11:10.opposite will happen. Separation will cause a race to the bottom in
:11:11. > :11:15.taxation. Alex Salmond has already announced he will cut the taxes on
:11:16. > :11:20.companies, corporation tax, down to 3% hello whatever it is in the rest
:11:21. > :11:26.of these islands. And business will only be attracted to come here,
:11:27. > :11:30.country of 5 million people on if there is low regulation, low public
:11:31. > :11:36.expenditure, low levels of taxation for them will stop you cannot have
:11:37. > :11:39.Scandinavian social democracy on Texan levels of taxation. The
:11:40. > :11:44.British government, as will be, the rest of the UK, they will race Alex
:11:45. > :11:51.Salmond to the bottom. If he cuts it by three, they will cut it by four.
:11:52. > :11:55.And so on. So whether some people cannot see it clearly yet or not,
:11:56. > :11:59.the interests of the working people on both sides of the border would be
:12:00. > :12:02.gravely damaged by separation. Let's take the interest of the working
:12:03. > :12:05.people. As you know, as well as anyone, the coalition is in
:12:06. > :12:10.fermenting both a series of cuts and reforms in welfare, and labour,
:12:11. > :12:14.Westminster Labour, has only limited plans to reverse any of that. Surely
:12:15. > :12:21.if you want to preserve the welfare state as it is, independence is the
:12:22. > :12:24.way to do it. For the reasons I just explain, I don't believe that. But
:12:25. > :12:32.Ed Miliband will be along in a minute. He will be along in May The
:12:33. > :12:37.polls indicate... They say he is only four or 5%, that is the
:12:38. > :12:41.average. Like the referendum, the next general election could be nip
:12:42. > :12:45.and tuck. I don't, myself, think that the time of David Cameron as
:12:46. > :12:48.Prime Minister is for much longer. I think there will be a Labour
:12:49. > :12:55.government in the spring and the Labour government in London and a
:12:56. > :12:58.stronger Scottish Parliament, super Devo Max, that is now on the table.
:12:59. > :13:04.That is the best arrangement of people in the country. But the
:13:05. > :13:07.people of Scotland surely cannot base a decision on independence on
:13:08. > :13:12.your feeling that Labour might win the next general election. It is my
:13:13. > :13:16.feeling. When the Tories were beaten on the bedroom tax last week in the
:13:17. > :13:20.house, it was written all over the faces of the government side not
:13:21. > :13:29.only that they were headed for defeat, but probably a massive fishy
:13:30. > :13:35.-- Fisher. I think the race to the bottom that I have proper size will
:13:36. > :13:43.mean that the welfare state will be a distant memory quite soon. The
:13:44. > :13:48.cuts and the run on the Scottish economy here in Edinburgh, the
:13:49. > :13:53.financial services industry, that will be gravely damage. The Ministry
:13:54. > :14:00.of Defence jobs in Scotland decimated, probably ended, more or
:14:01. > :14:04.less. It will be a time of cuts and austerity, maybe super austerity in
:14:05. > :14:07.an independent Scotland. You mentioned defence. What about
:14:08. > :14:11.nuclear weapons? The Tories and Labour will keep them. You are
:14:12. > :14:16.against them. Surely the only way to be rid of them in Scotland is by
:14:17. > :14:22.independence. But you are not rid of them by telling them down the river.
:14:23. > :14:27.The danger would be the same -- telling them down the river. The
:14:28. > :14:30.danger would be the same. Nuclear radiation does not respect Alex
:14:31. > :14:36.Salmond's national boundaries. They would be committed to immediately
:14:37. > :14:39.joining NATO, which is bristling with nuclear weapons and is what --
:14:40. > :14:45.involved in wars across the Atlantic. So anyone looking for a
:14:46. > :14:49.peace option will have to elect a government in Britain as a whole
:14:50. > :14:52.that will get rid of nuclear weapons and get out of military
:14:53. > :14:57.entanglements. We are in one again now. I have been up the whole night,
:14:58. > :15:02.till 5am, dealing with some of the consequences and implications of the
:15:03. > :15:08.grave international matter that you opened the show with. David Haines
:15:09. > :15:13.and the fate of the hostage still in their hands. There are many other
:15:14. > :15:17.hostages as well. And there are many people dying who are neither British
:15:18. > :15:22.nor American. I have, somehow, been drawn into this matter. And it
:15:23. > :15:31.showed me, again, that the world is interdependent. It is absolutely
:15:32. > :15:36.riven with division and hatred, and this is the worst possible time to
:15:37. > :15:44.be opting out of the world to set up a small mini-state on the promises
:15:45. > :15:48.of Alex Salmond of social democracy funded by Texan taxes. Let's, for
:15:49. > :15:53.the sake of the next question, assume that everything you have told
:15:54. > :16:04.us is true. Why is your side squandering a 20 point lead?
:16:05. > :16:11.I will have a great deal to say about that, whatever the result
:16:12. > :16:19.This is very much a Scottish Labour project, is that not a condemnation
:16:20. > :16:26.of Scottish Labour? It is potentially on its deathbed. The
:16:27. > :16:42.country breaking up, the principal responsibility will be on them. And
:16:43. > :16:47.the pitiful, absolutely pitiful job that has been made of defending a
:16:48. > :16:53.300-year-old relationship in this island by the Scottish Labour
:16:54. > :16:59.leadership is really terrible for me to behold, even though I'm no longer
:17:00. > :17:03.one of them. I don't know how they are going to get out of this
:17:04. > :17:09.deathbed. Do you agree that if this referendum is lost by your side it
:17:10. > :17:12.will be because traditional working-class Labour voters,
:17:13. > :17:17.particularly in the west of Scotland, have abundant Labour and
:17:18. > :17:23.decided to vote for independence? Without a doubt, the number of
:17:24. > :17:28.Labour voters intending to vote yes is disturbingly high. Even just
:17:29. > :17:33.months ago during the European Parliament elections, swathes of
:17:34. > :17:38.people who didn't vote SNP will be voting yes on Thursday. That is a
:17:39. > :17:45.grave squandering of a great legacy of Scottish Labour history, which
:17:46. > :17:50.history will decree as unforgivable. If Labour is to get
:17:51. > :17:56.out of its deathbed in Scotland it will have to become Labour again.
:17:57. > :17:58.Real Labour again. I am ready to help them with that. My goodness,
:17:59. > :18:14.they need help with are increasingly fed up with the
:18:15. > :18:19.Westminster system, but it is only the Scots who currently have the
:18:20. > :18:25.chance to break free from it, so why shouldn't they? That is exactly
:18:26. > :18:31.right. They see a parliament of expenses cheats led by Lord snooty
:18:32. > :18:35.and the Bullingdon club elite, carrying through austerity for many
:18:36. > :18:41.but not for themselves and they are repulsed by it. They need change,
:18:42. > :18:47.but you can go backwards and call it change but it will be worse than the
:18:48. > :18:49.situation you have now. A lot of Scottish people don't buy that. It
:18:50. > :20:40.is a Scottish people don't buy that. It
:20:41. > :20:48.getting this, they would say, what about us? It could delay the whole
:20:49. > :20:53.procedure. It is necessary, you are right. England should have home
:20:54. > :21:00.rule, and I screamed at Scottish Labour MPs going into the vote to
:21:01. > :21:04.introduce tuition fees in England. I told them this was a constitutional
:21:05. > :21:10.monstrosity, as well as a crime against young people in England It
:21:11. > :21:16.was risking everything. We are led by idiots. Our leaders are not James
:21:17. > :21:23.Bonds, they are Austin powers. We need to change the leadership, not
:21:24. > :21:28.rip up a 300-year-old marriage. Thank you.
:21:29. > :21:31.It's been one of the longest and hardest fought political campaigns
:21:32. > :21:34.in history, with Alex Salmond firing the starting gun on the referendum
:21:35. > :21:45.Adam's been stitching together the key moments of the campaign
:21:46. > :21:52.It is the other thing drawing people to the Scottish parliament, the new
:21:53. > :21:58.great tapestry of Scotland. It is the story of battles won and lost,
:21:59. > :22:02.Scottish moments, British moments, famous Scots, and not so famous
:22:03. > :22:09.Scots. There is even a panel dedicated to the rise of the SNP.
:22:10. > :22:13.Alex Salmond's majority in the elections in 2011 made the
:22:14. > :22:18.referendum inevitable. It became reality when he and David Cameron
:22:19. > :22:23.did a deal in Edinburgh one year later. The Scottish Government set
:22:24. > :22:29.out its plans for independence in this book, just a wish list to some,
:22:30. > :22:36.a sacred text to others. This White Paper is the most detailed
:22:37. > :22:40.improvements that any people have ever been offered in the world as a
:22:41. > :22:46.basis for becoming an independent country. The no campaign, called
:22:47. > :22:52.Better Together, united the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems under the
:22:53. > :22:56.leadership of Alistair Darling. Then the Scottish people were bombarded
:22:57. > :23:00.with two years of photo opportunities and a lot of
:23:01. > :23:05.campaigning. For the no campaign, Jim Murphy went on tour but took a
:23:06. > :23:10.break when he was egged and his events were often hijacked by yes
:23:11. > :23:16.campaigners who were accused of being intimidating. In turn, they
:23:17. > :23:24.accused the no campaign of using scare tactics. Things heated up when
:23:25. > :23:29.the TV dinner -- during the TV debate. Fever pitch was reached one
:23:30. > :23:34.week ago when one poll suggested the yes campaign was in the lead for the
:23:35. > :23:38.first time. The three main Westminster leaders ditched PMQs to
:23:39. > :23:43.head north. I think people can feel it is like a general election, that
:23:44. > :23:46.you make a decision and five years later you can make another decision
:23:47. > :23:55.if you are fed up with the Tories, give them a kick... This is totally
:23:56. > :24:00.different. And Labour shelved not quite 100 MPs onto the train, Alex
:24:01. > :24:05.Salmond took a helicopter instead. This is about the formation of the
:24:06. > :24:14.NHS. A big theme of the yes campaign is that changes to the NHS in Linden
:24:15. > :24:21.-- in England would lead to privatisation in Scotland. Alex
:24:22. > :24:28.Salmond's plan to share the pound was trashed by big names. There were
:24:29. > :24:32.other big question is, what would happen to military hardware like
:24:33. > :24:38.Trident based on the Clyde? Would an independent Scotland be able to join
:24:39. > :24:41.the EU? And how much oil was left underneath the North Sea?
:24:42. > :24:49.This panel is about famous Scots, we have Annie Lennox, Stephen Hendry,
:24:50. > :24:53.Sean Connery. I cannot see Gordon Brown. These are big changes we are
:24:54. > :24:59.proposing to strengthen the Scottish parliament, but at the same time to
:25:00. > :25:03.stay as part of the UK. A regular on the campaign, he was front and
:25:04. > :25:07.centre when things got close, unveiling a timetable for more
:25:08. > :25:12.devolution. People wondered whether Ed Miliband was able to reach the
:25:13. > :25:16.parts of Scotland Labour leader should reach, and at Westminster
:25:17. > :25:20.some Tories pondered whether David Cameron could stay as prime minister
:25:21. > :25:26.if there was a yes vote. This tapestry is nonpartisan so it is a
:25:27. > :25:31.good place to get away from it all but it is crystallising voters'
:25:32. > :25:41.views. Look at what we have contributed to Great Britain, and I
:25:42. > :25:43.am British and I hope to be staying British. This is what people from
:25:44. > :25:47.Scotland have done, taken to the rest of the world in many cases and
:25:48. > :25:52.I think I am going to vote yes. I am so inspired by it. It has certainly
:25:53. > :25:57.inspired me to have a go at stitching. How long do you think it
:25:58. > :26:02.would take to do the whole thing? I would say to put aside maybe 30
:26:03. > :26:05.hours of stitching. Maybe by the time I am done, we will know more
:26:06. > :26:09.about how the fabric of the nation might be changing.
:26:10. > :26:12.And I've been joined by yes campaigner and convenor
:26:13. > :26:14.of Scotland's Solidarity socialist party, Tommy Sheridan.
:26:15. > :26:26.An economy dependent on oil, the Queen as head of state, membership
:26:27. > :26:32.of the world 's premier nuclear alliance of capitalist nations is
:26:33. > :26:42.that the socialist Scotland you are fighting for? No, that is the SNP's
:26:43. > :26:47.prospectus and they are entitled to put forward their vision, but it is
:26:48. > :26:53.not mine or that of the majority of Scotland. We will find out in two
:26:54. > :26:58.years. On Thursday we are not voting for a political party, we are voting
:26:59. > :27:03.for our freedom as a country. That is why people are going to vote yes
:27:04. > :27:08.on Thursday. A lot of people are voting for what you call freedom
:27:09. > :27:13.because they think it will be more Scotland. You have already got free
:27:14. > :27:17.prescriptions, no tuition fees, free care for the elderly. You might not
:27:18. > :27:22.in future have that if public spending is overdependent on the
:27:23. > :27:26.price of oil, over which you have no control. We don't have to worry
:27:27. > :27:34.about one single resource, we already have 20% of the fishing
:27:35. > :27:43.stock in Europe. We already have 25% of the wind, wave and solar power
:27:44. > :27:48.generation. We, as an independent country, have huge resources,
:27:49. > :27:54.natural resources but also people resources. We have five first-class
:27:55. > :27:58.universities, food and beverages industry which is the envy of the
:27:59. > :28:01.world. We have the ability to produce the resources on the
:28:02. > :28:05.revenues that won't just maintain the health service and education but
:28:06. > :28:09.it will develop health and education. I don't want to stand
:28:10. > :28:14.still, I want to redistribute wealth. But all of the projections
:28:15. > :28:21.of public spending for an independent Scotland show that to
:28:22. > :28:26.keep spending at the current level you need a strong price of oil and
:28:27. > :28:32.you are dependent on this commodity which goes up and down and sideways.
:28:33. > :28:37.That is a gamble. I have got to laugh because I have been told the
:28:38. > :28:44.most pessimistic is that in 40 years the oil is running out, panic
:28:45. > :28:47.stations! If you were told by the BBC you could only guarantee
:28:48. > :28:53.employment for the next 40 years you would be over the moon. I am talking
:28:54. > :28:59.about in the next five. You need 50% of your revenues to come from oil to
:29:00. > :29:04.continue spending and that is not a guarantee. Of course it is, the
:29:05. > :29:14.minimum survival of the oil is 0 years. Please get your viewers to go
:29:15. > :29:26.onto the Internet and look at the website called oilandgas.com. The
:29:27. > :29:32.West Coast has 100 years of oil to be extracted. It hasn't been done
:29:33. > :29:37.because in 1981 Michael Heseltine said we cannot extract the oil
:29:38. > :29:46.because we have Trident going up and down there. Let's get rid of Trident
:29:47. > :29:52.and extract the oil. You are a trot right, why have you failed to learn
:29:53. > :29:57.his famous dictum, socialism in one country is impossible. Revolutions
:29:58. > :30:02.and change are not just single event. What will happen here on
:30:03. > :30:07.Thursday is a democratic revolution. The people are fed up of being
:30:08. > :30:12.patronised and lied to by this mob in Westminster who have used and
:30:13. > :30:18.abused us for far too long. The smaller people now have a voice
:30:19. > :30:27.What about socialism in one country? Mr Trotsky warned you
:30:28. > :30:31.against that. The no campaign represents the past. The yes
:30:32. > :30:35.campaign represents the future. That is the truth of the matter. What we
:30:36. > :30:43.are going to do in an independent Scotland is tackle inequality and a
:30:44. > :30:49.scourge of low pay. If we vote no on Thursday, there will be more low pay
:30:50. > :30:52.on Friday, more poverty and food banks on Friday. I'm not going to be
:30:53. > :31:02.lectured by these big banks, you vote less -- yes and we will leave
:31:03. > :31:08.the country! The food banks will be the ones closing. If you got your
:31:09. > :31:13.way, for the type of Scotland you would like to see, state control of
:31:14. > :31:16.business, nationalisation of the Manx, the roads to Carlisle will be
:31:17. > :31:27.clogged with people Yes, hoping to come into Scotland,
:31:28. > :31:33.because in their hearts, the Scottish people know that England
:31:34. > :31:38.want to see the people having the bottle. The working class people in
:31:39. > :31:41.Liverpool, Newcastle, outside of London, they are saying good on the
:31:42. > :31:45.jocks that are taking on big business. When we are independent
:31:46. > :31:49.and investing in social housing the people of England will say, we can
:31:50. > :31:54.do that as well, and they will rediscover the radical tradition. In
:31:55. > :31:58.wanting to build socialism in one country, it really means you are
:31:59. > :32:02.fighting for the few, rather than the many. You are bailing out of the
:32:03. > :32:09.socialist Battle for Britain. You think it will be easier to make it
:32:10. > :32:13.work. Think globally, act locally and we will build socialism in
:32:14. > :32:17.Scotland but I wanted across the world. I won my brothers and sisters
:32:18. > :32:21.in England and Wales to be encouraged by what we do so they can
:32:22. > :32:26.reject the Westminster consensus as well -- I want. We had the three
:32:27. > :32:30.Stooges coming up to London, three millionaires united on one thing,
:32:31. > :32:33.austerity. Doesn't matter whether Ed Miliband wins the next election he
:32:34. > :32:38.said he would stick to the story spending cuts. Why vote for Ed
:32:39. > :32:43.Miliband? You wouldn't trust him to run a bath, not a country. Let's see
:32:44. > :32:47.if this is realistic, this great socialist vision. At the last
:32:48. > :32:50.Scottish election, the Socialist party got 8000 votes. The
:32:51. > :32:56.Conservatives got 30 times more votes. Where is the appetite in
:32:57. > :33:01.Scotland for your Marxist ideology question we might not win it. But do
:33:02. > :33:16.you know what, see in two years time. See when we have the Scottish
:33:17. > :33:19.general election. You won't -- you are saying you might win and you
:33:20. > :33:25.went to the Holyrood election and got 8000 Pope -- votes. The SNP won
:33:26. > :33:29.a democratic election and then won the 2011 election and you know why
:33:30. > :33:33.they won? Because they picked up the clothes that the Labour Party has
:33:34. > :33:39.thrown away. They picked up the close of social democracy and
:33:40. > :33:44.protecting the health service was -- service. There are people in the SNP
:33:45. > :33:48.who believe in public ownership and people in the SNP who believe in the
:33:49. > :33:53.NHS should be written into a constitution as never for sale
:33:54. > :33:56.people in the the SNP that think the Royal mail should return to public
:33:57. > :34:00.ownership. That is there in black and white. Do you agree with George
:34:01. > :34:06.Galloway that this is potentially a crisis for Scottish Labour? Scottish
:34:07. > :34:09.Labour is finished. They are absolutely finished. George is right
:34:10. > :34:13.in that. Scottish Labour is finished. The irony of ironies is,
:34:14. > :34:16.Labour in Scotland has more chance of recovery in an independent
:34:17. > :34:22.Scotland that they have in a no vote. Labour in Scotland in an
:34:23. > :34:27.independent country will have to rediscover the traditions of Keir
:34:28. > :34:32.Hardie, the ideas of Jimmy Maxon, because right now, they are to the
:34:33. > :34:37.right of the SNP as a political party. I understand the socialist
:34:38. > :34:44.vision, but it is where the appetite is. And you look at the independence
:34:45. > :34:50.people in Scotland. One of your colleagues, Brian Souter, a man who
:34:51. > :34:54.fought against the appeal -- repeal of homosexual rights in Scotland.
:34:55. > :35:01.Another of your allies would seem to be Rupert Murdoch, the man who
:35:02. > :35:03.engineered your downfall. You say he engineered your downfall, but I m
:35:04. > :35:10.still here and his newspaper has closed. Whether it Rupert Murdoch,
:35:11. > :35:14.Brian Souter, or any other millionaire supporting independence,
:35:15. > :35:18.I couldn't care less. This boat on Thursday is not about millionaires,
:35:19. > :35:24.it is about the millions. -- this vote. We will not be abused any
:35:25. > :35:28.young -- longer. Would you rather not have their support? I couldn't
:35:29. > :35:33.care about the support. You know who is supporting the union. It is the
:35:34. > :35:40.unions of the big businesses, the BNP, UKIP, they are the ones who
:35:41. > :35:44.support it. You are giving me a stray that has wandered into the
:35:45. > :35:48.campaign and are you seriously going to argue with me that the
:35:49. > :35:52.establishment isn't united to try and save the union? That is what
:35:53. > :35:56.they are trying to be. The BBC, you have been a disgrace in your
:35:57. > :36:02.coverage of the campaign. Not you personally. You don't have editorial
:36:03. > :36:06.control. The BBC coverage, generally, has been a disgrace and
:36:07. > :36:10.the people. Oil and gas, go and look at that, why is that not feature.
:36:11. > :36:13.Why is the idea of 100 years of oil not featured in the campaign.
:36:14. > :36:19.Because the BBC does not want to see it. Are you getting in your excuses
:36:20. > :36:24.if you lose? You better be kidding. Is this the face of somebody looking
:36:25. > :36:31.to lose. We are going to win, 6 /40. Absolutely. There is a momentum that
:36:32. > :36:34.you guys are not seeing on the working-class housing estates.
:36:35. > :36:40.Working class people are fed up being taken for granted fed up with
:36:41. > :36:47.the lives of people dragging us into tax cuts, bedroom tax for the poor.
:36:48. > :36:51.They will have power on Thursday, and they will use it and vote for
:36:52. > :36:56.freedom. Are you happy with the way the BBC has treated you today? So
:36:57. > :37:00.far, yes. I have still not been offered a Coffey, but that might
:37:01. > :37:03.happen. That is an obvious example of our bias. Tommy, we will speak to
:37:04. > :37:22.you later with George Galloway. Hello, I'm Martyn Oates,
:37:23. > :37:25.coming up on the Sunday Polhtics Whether there's a yes or
:37:26. > :37:29.a no vote in next week's Scottish referendum, devolution will soon be
:37:30. > :37:31.stalking the land, Could a Cornish Assembly
:37:32. > :37:40.finally see the light of dax? And for the next 20 minutes, I'm
:37:41. > :37:43.joined by Labour's Candy Atherton, Cornwall councillor and forler MP
:37:44. > :37:45.for Falmouth and Camborne. And by the present Conservative MP
:37:46. > :37:47.for Camborne and Redruth, The first time we've had a double MP
:37:48. > :37:55.of an MP and their successor. During the summer break,
:37:56. > :37:58.the fiercely Eurosceptic MP Douglas Carswell left
:37:59. > :38:03.the Tories to join UKIP. No other MPs have yet followed
:38:04. > :38:05.but many Tory backbenchers think the Prime Minister's pledge
:38:06. > :38:08.of a referendum on our membdrship I can see nothing wrong with
:38:09. > :38:17.renegotiation, I would say to you I want to see repatriation
:38:18. > :38:20.of our powers, and if I cannot get what is best for my country I would
:38:21. > :38:29.have to consider leaving. Unfortunately, as I underst`nd it,
:38:30. > :38:31.the Prime Minister's position is that he wants to stay in Europe and
:38:32. > :38:38.we have rather given away otr stance I know you love being reminded that
:38:39. > :38:45.you came the opposite way from UKIP Does that eurosceptic angle give
:38:46. > :39:05.you some sort of sympathy? I'll let you get 15 years ago and
:39:06. > :39:10.one of the reasons was becatse it was completely counter`prodtctive.
:39:11. > :39:15.They were saying you can only save the pound if you leave the DU and we
:39:16. > :39:21.know that was completely wrong. The only way we can get a referdndum is
:39:22. > :39:24.if we have a Conservative m`jority. Unless we have that, Labour will be
:39:25. > :39:31.in power and there will be no referendum. You are no longdr for
:39:32. > :39:39.what role? I actually think we should renegotiate. Should the Prime
:39:40. > :39:43.Minister be threatening that? The Prime Minister gave the most
:39:44. > :39:47.significant speech on Europd of any prime minister since the war. He is
:39:48. > :39:52.right that we should have a new setup with some power is coling
:39:53. > :39:57.back. Countries like Germanx say they are up for that kind of
:39:58. > :40:02.discussion. It would be wrong to go in and say we are going to leave
:40:03. > :40:05.because that is what people here, and the danger is that other
:40:06. > :40:11.countries would be less recdptive to having the grown`up discusshon that
:40:12. > :40:15.we want. It is clear that if you have a referendum and one of the
:40:16. > :40:18.options is leaving that the UK would, but the onus is on the
:40:19. > :40:24.government to get the fresh settlement and put it to thd people.
:40:25. > :40:28.You are shaking your head? Ht is like ferrets in a act. We h`ve been
:40:29. > :40:33.through the big depression `nd people anxious about housing and
:40:34. > :40:37.here are the Conservatives completely enthralled by thd
:40:38. > :40:42.argument about Europe. Not dven in the top ten of issues that people
:40:43. > :40:50.raves. It is not going to do you any good and I think it will help
:40:51. > :40:55.Labour. It is the case that we have seen it in Plymouth that UKHP are
:40:56. > :41:00.taking working`class votes from Labour as well, you cannot be
:41:01. > :41:04.complacent? The surveys are very clear that it is but several ways.
:41:05. > :41:11.The Liberal Democrats are ott of the game. Michael Foster stands a really
:41:12. > :41:16.good chance because we have is the anti`Conservative vote going to go?
:41:17. > :41:22.Labourer. Let's not forget ht was the last Labour government that got
:41:23. > :41:29.the economy in a mess. A sm`ll thing called the global recession. We have
:41:30. > :41:32.growth returning. We always end up talking about the global economy!
:41:33. > :41:35.Calls for devolved government in Cornwall have been falling on deaf
:41:36. > :41:38.Now, though, campaigners hope the massive constitutional changes
:41:39. > :41:41.generated by a yes or no vote in the Scottish referendum light be
:41:42. > :41:56.With the Scottish independence Paul's neck and neck, the s`ltire
:41:57. > :41:59.became a political tool that Downing Street and the Labour leader called
:42:00. > :42:03.for it to be flown across the country. We want to send a clear
:42:04. > :42:10.message to the people of Scotland, please stay with us because we
:42:11. > :42:16.believe we are stronger togdther. The Tour of Britain whizzed through
:42:17. > :42:22.Devon. But no sign of the s`ltire here, where it is not flags but the
:42:23. > :42:27.impact of events which are stopping people's minds. Are you hophng this
:42:28. > :42:34.could also be Cornwall's molent We hope it is after Scotland. But some
:42:35. > :42:38.have been here before. Just over a decade ago campaigners for ` Cornish
:42:39. > :42:43.assembly managed to get signatures of 10% of the population only for
:42:44. > :42:50.Westminster to shelve the issue Nick Clegg is calling for a major
:42:51. > :42:57.programme of devolution in Dngland. We have not seen a national party
:42:58. > :43:01.commit to the Cornish case hn a serious way. Here in this chamber,
:43:02. > :44:00.123 Cornwall Council as region, one culture, one history and
:44:01. > :44:03.language and counsel. The there s absolutely no reason why grdater
:44:04. > :44:06.powers could not be afforded to the unitary authority and that they
:44:07. > :45:18.could act us all the time we could do many
:45:19. > :45:26.more things, which would solve many of the problems that Cornwall faces.
:45:27. > :45:29.I think there's a move as a result of devolution that this will happen.
:45:30. > :45:36.Certainly from my party and others as well. Recently Ed Miliband
:45:37. > :45:41.produced this policy talking about city regions. But on the face of it
:45:42. > :45:45.since I Cornwall being attached to Plymouth which might be unpopular.
:45:46. > :45:53.It is sometimes helpful to work was Plymouth. But what might thhs mean?
:45:54. > :45:57.It is what is appropriate. Ht may be some of the inner cities of the
:45:58. > :46:02.North want to work together as a cohesive region, but we do not need
:46:03. > :46:09.another layer. That is the last thing people want. They want control
:46:10. > :46:13.of what is going on in the community and not Whitehall bureaucrats making
:46:14. > :46:18.decisions. What exactly do the Lib Dems want? We want to see a transfer
:46:19. > :46:23.of powers to individual reghons based on what is right for the
:46:24. > :46:28.region. Cornwall can be considered a region and it is explicitly made
:46:29. > :46:32.clear in our manifesto that a Cornish assembly is what we want to
:46:33. > :46:41.see. If other parts are not ready to move at the same speed, that is not
:46:42. > :46:48.going to hold up Cornwall. Just boosting the existing unity? I want
:46:49. > :46:52.to see a wholesale transfer of powers. We should not see Eric
:46:53. > :47:03.Pickles dictating how often we empty the bends. `` bins. Something along
:47:04. > :47:09.the lines of the Welsh asselbly but we do not have to see anothdr tier
:47:10. > :47:15.of bureaucracy. You can enh`nce the council and you will only gdt that
:47:16. > :47:20.with the Liberal Democrats. When Hilary Benn wrote to as recdntly he
:47:21. > :47:24.was quite insistent that Cornwall to get more powers would have to
:47:25. > :47:27.combine with Plymouth and would have to combine with other authorities
:47:28. > :47:33.and that is not something that people in Cornwall want. I do not
:47:34. > :47:40.hear that at all. We have otr conference next week. The shze was
:47:41. > :47:44.the big issue? Sometimes size is an issue but it is what is
:47:45. > :47:50.appropriate. The Labour Party has really learn the lesson that you
:47:51. > :47:54.have to go to the appropriate level. I do think it is good somethmes to
:47:55. > :48:01.work was Plymouth. Sometimes you have to work with your neighbours.
:48:02. > :48:08.Several references to Eric Pickles. You are on the record as opposing
:48:09. > :48:12.Cornish assembly but plenty of Tory MPs say that whatever happens they
:48:13. > :48:20.will have to be significant constitutional changes. I h`ve
:48:21. > :48:24.always said I am up for discussion. Cornwall Council is any special
:48:25. > :48:29.possession but I do not think we need a new assembly paying lots of
:48:30. > :48:32.money for another layer of politicians. It is important to
:48:33. > :48:38.remember we have already brought in to place the growth deal. That gives
:48:39. > :48:42.funds for infrastructure projects and part of that is looking at
:48:43. > :48:49.whether Cornwall can take a stronger role in the number of eyes pushed
:48:50. > :48:56.for that. `` and a number of others. We are up for discussion ovdr
:48:57. > :49:02.whether we can do more but H do not think we need to have anothdr tier
:49:03. > :49:07.of politicians. Some references to Eric Pickles imposing things, but
:49:08. > :49:10.you have had this huge drivd towards localism but the reality is you have
:49:11. > :49:14.been telling councils what to do with their revenue and council tax
:49:15. > :49:21.and telling them how many houses to build. People like the Tory leader
:49:22. > :49:26.of Devon county council say they have never been more constr`ined. We
:49:27. > :49:30.have been encouraging counchls to take account that they have had
:49:31. > :49:34.pressure on income over the last 20 years so we have helped those who
:49:35. > :49:38.are willing to keep council tax down. We are also removing some of
:49:39. > :49:45.the ring fencing swords is not true to say are dictating. The fhnal
:49:46. > :49:49.point I am making is that there are certain things the public expect the
:49:50. > :49:53.council to do, and picking tp the rubbish is one of them. There are
:49:54. > :49:56.certain core functions wherd it is right for the government to have a
:49:57. > :49:58.view on what they could council is doing.
:49:59. > :50:00.This week the Liberal Democrats unveiled what they're calling
:50:01. > :50:02.a pre`manifesto outlining the pledges they'll make
:50:03. > :50:05.Differentiating themselves from their Conservative partners
:50:06. > :50:07.in the coalition is a big p`rt of their pre`election push.
:50:08. > :50:10.And, as John Danks reports, this includes rejecting polhcies
:50:11. > :50:34.When the Lib Dems backed down on their pledge to prevent tuition
:50:35. > :50:38.fees, many were disappointed. We have learned our lesson on tuition
:50:39. > :50:44.fees the hard way. There will be no repeat of that mistake. The
:50:45. > :50:50.so`called bedroom tax is other policies which has caused Lhb Dem
:50:51. > :50:53.anxiety. Valerie Johnson can still see the larger house she left in 518
:50:54. > :50:59.years until her benefits were reduced. I have three months to
:51:00. > :51:05.downsize. I had to get rid of the lot of stuff that meant a lot to me
:51:06. > :51:12.and had to dispose of a lot of memories. It was painful. Shnce
:51:13. > :51:15.April last year, tenants in social housing with more bedrooms than they
:51:16. > :51:20.need have lost part of their housing benefit. Making the change, the
:51:21. > :51:30.government said it was fear and would free up bigger homes. `` fair.
:51:31. > :51:43.Others insisted it was anything but fair. The reality is a lot of people
:51:44. > :51:50.living in overcrowded accomlodation, the sensible thing to do wotld to
:51:51. > :51:55.have provided a stimulus, and the fiscal penalty drove them ott of
:51:56. > :51:59.those properties and drove those in overcrowded property into them, but
:52:00. > :52:05.that has not happened because people cannot move out because thex are not
:52:06. > :52:07.properties available. He has now introduced a Private Members' Bill
:52:08. > :52:13.which would prevent people from a benefits cut if a smaller house
:52:14. > :52:19.cannot be found. And now his Liberal Democrat colleagues are backing him
:52:20. > :52:22.instead. Despite backing thd bill, the cries of hypocrisy that the
:52:23. > :52:27.Liberal Democrats were now `ttacking a policy that they had voted for.
:52:28. > :52:32.They denied the move had anxthing to do with the general election. It is
:52:33. > :52:36.perfectly reasonable and rational to say that on the basis of thd
:52:37. > :52:42.evidence we think that we h`ve two extend the exemptions that `re
:52:43. > :52:49.currently available. I think that while people can of course criticise
:52:50. > :52:54.them for political cynicism, there is a strong rational case to
:52:55. > :52:57.actually defend the position. As the general election approaches, the
:52:58. > :53:02.Liberal Democrats are also pledging to stop public forests being sold.
:53:03. > :53:08.Just four years ago they were trying to sell them off in coalition with
:53:09. > :53:10.the Tories. They are also advertising new policies like
:53:11. > :53:15.subsidised bus travel for young people. Whether they will change
:53:16. > :53:20.their minds and other subsidies and policies remains to be seen.
:53:21. > :53:25.We have heard many Liberal Democrats over the last few years defdnding
:53:26. > :53:30.the bedroom tax in principld and practice, this looks a little
:53:31. > :53:35.opportunistic? I cannot spe`k for what they have said and havd always
:53:36. > :53:39.opposed the practicalities of it. If people have the opportunity to
:53:40. > :53:45.downsize the should be expected to do so but without the opportunity it
:53:46. > :53:53.is unrealistic and harsh. I am worse than through all the way. I am very
:53:54. > :53:58.glad that in the run`up to the election, and with all the dvidence,
:53:59. > :54:04.there are many thousands of people who are being unfairly penalised and
:54:05. > :54:09.we need to reform, if not do away with the bedroom tax. Is it
:54:10. > :54:15.embarrassing that your partx as a whole are on the wrong side of this
:54:16. > :54:20.argument? If you have coalition then each partner in that coalithon has
:54:21. > :54:27.to give a certain amount of ground. The Conservatives are bigger and had
:54:28. > :54:36.to give less ground, but Tory backbenchers will say that the
:54:37. > :54:44.Liberal Democrats held up and stopped the Tories from doing many
:54:45. > :54:49.things they wanted to do. Bx and large, the government has done the
:54:50. > :54:54.right thing in most circumstances. They are examples like the bedroom
:54:55. > :54:59.tax where I think it is wholly the wrong thing, but you live and learn.
:55:00. > :55:04.It is a measure of any politician or party who can say I am wrong, I am
:55:05. > :55:11.sorry. Let's think again and do it differently. The evidence is in
:55:12. > :55:16.practice rather troubling. Ht is important to know that all we are
:55:17. > :55:22.really doing is bringing thhs into line with people in the private
:55:23. > :55:26.sector. Those in receipt of housing benefit only get benefit for the
:55:27. > :55:29.rooms they need and not addhtional housing benefit if the propdrty is
:55:30. > :55:35.too large, so we are only bringing it in line. What about enough
:55:36. > :55:40.smaller properties? The important thing to be on in mind is that as an
:55:41. > :55:45.MP I get lots of people comhng to me with families, encoded condhtions
:55:46. > :55:49.with children shearling rools, and there is pressure on that and
:55:50. > :55:53.politics is sometimes about tough choices. It is right to expdct
:55:54. > :55:58.people who are over occupying a house, perhaps when children have
:55:59. > :56:06.left home, and it is right to ask them to downsize. That is a fair
:56:07. > :56:09.thing to do. The Liberal Delocrats raised this that the time and have
:56:10. > :56:14.been clear this was not one of the concerns they raised. They raised
:56:15. > :56:22.lots of things about wanting a referendum on changing the dlectoral
:56:23. > :56:25.system. I actually think thd coalition has worked better than I
:56:26. > :56:28.thought it would but we are nine months before the election `nd it is
:56:29. > :56:38.understandable there will bd some tension. One thing that is close to
:56:39. > :56:42.home for you as we touched on the issue of the Liberal Democr`ts
:56:43. > :56:47.pledged to protect public forests. Your colleague put it this press
:56:48. > :56:50.release as the forestry Minhster but said it was a Liberal Democrat
:56:51. > :56:56.pledge. Was that following protocol? I do not really understand
:56:57. > :57:01.it because the truth is thex were never going to sell the fordsts
:57:02. > :57:05.They changed the policy and there was no danger of any party going
:57:06. > :57:11.back to selling off Forest. The idea at the time was you could gdt
:57:12. > :57:18.companies like English nature involved. At the time there was a
:57:19. > :57:24.huge storm about it but that is the coalition possession. They `re all
:57:25. > :57:28.innocent! The Liberal Democrats late to the party on this and I could not
:57:29. > :57:32.find it in the pre`manifesto that they would abolish the bedroom tax,
:57:33. > :57:37.and I would be delighted if that is what they would do, but I think
:57:38. > :57:45.people will remember tuition fees and the last manifesto commhtments.
:57:46. > :57:55.People have seen and they do not like. I don't know how you can set
:57:56. > :57:59.the and defend the bedroom tax when you know what it has done to people.
:58:00. > :58:02.We will have to leave it thdre. Now our regular round`up of the
:58:03. > :58:09.political week in sixty seconds As gypsies camping on this Dxeter
:58:10. > :58:13.playing field face legal action the council says its new permanent
:58:14. > :58:16.travellers' site has only attracted They came over and asked
:58:17. > :58:25.if we wanted it built Government funding for free school
:58:26. > :58:31.meals has fallen short by htndreds of thousands of pounds according
:58:32. > :58:37.to councils in Devon and Cornwall. What I hope they will listen to
:58:38. > :58:40.is they will actually cost ht Protesters in Somerset are gearing
:58:41. > :58:47.up to disrupt the next phasd They are responsible shooters and
:58:48. > :58:55.if we are in the vicinity they will And the Jazz age meets the `ge
:58:56. > :59:01.of austerity. Weymouth and
:59:02. > :59:05.Portland Borough Council saxs it needs private sector help to pay
:59:06. > :59:26.for its 1920s beach house. This is the pilot badger cull
:59:27. > :59:31.continuing. Well anything else be considered before the gener`l
:59:32. > :59:34.election? The reality is last year and lessons had to be learndd and an
:59:35. > :59:40.independent panel recommenddd some improvements and we are makhng laws.
:59:41. > :59:45.You are not ruling out an extension? It is unlikely to be
:59:46. > :59:51.ruled out because you would not do new early as next year before the
:59:52. > :59:56.late autumn anyway. This is a contentious policy part of ` broader
:59:57. > :00:00.strategy. We believe that a badger cull has to be part of it. Xou have
:00:01. > :00:06.lost the public on this and it will not help bovine tuberculosis. I
:00:07. > :00:10.would urge the foreign Minister to think again both on public opinion
:00:11. > :00:12.and for the sake of the farling community and badgers. Thank you
:00:13. > :00:17.The last time a sewer was built in London was 150 years ago, otherwise
:00:18. > :00:23.we would have a dirty River Thames. Andrew, back to you.
:00:24. > :00:28.Can the No campaign still pull it off?
:00:29. > :00:31.And even if they do is the whole of the UK now on the brink
:00:32. > :00:48.I'm joined now by John McTernan former adviser to Gordon Brown
:00:49. > :00:51.and Tony Blair, Alex Bell, former Head of Policy for the SNP
:00:52. > :00:54.and Lindsay McIntosh, the Times Scottish Political Editor
:00:55. > :01:00.And I'm delighted that Tommy and George have stayed too.
:01:01. > :01:08.No fighting has broken out either. Where
:01:09. > :01:08.No fighting has broken out either. have three full days to go
:01:09. > :01:11.No fighting has broken out either. polling day. What is the state of
:01:12. > :01:19.play? I think the poll of polls is accurate. 49 and 51%. What is vital
:01:20. > :01:24.is to bring the undecided voters in, and they properly have about
:01:25. > :01:27.500,000. I think there are a lot of undecided people. I think they know
:01:28. > :01:33.which way they are leaning, but they haven't jumped. The hope of the no
:01:34. > :01:38.campaign is that they will go for the status quo on Thursday. How do
:01:39. > :01:42.you assess the state of the campaign now? The crucial thing is the big
:01:43. > :01:51.swing. The swing has come towards yes, so will the momentum carry it
:01:52. > :01:55.over the line? I will think it does, because it is an antiestablishment
:01:56. > :02:00.swell, and its people responding to standard Western as the politicians
:02:01. > :02:05.and saying that they want a new way -- Westminster politicians. I think
:02:06. > :02:10.that yes will sneak it. A referendum can be more important than a general
:02:11. > :02:14.election, and the Yes campaign have had the momentum. This was the week
:02:15. > :02:18.the momentum stopped. We started the week looking as though yes were
:02:19. > :02:21.going into the lead and then it stopped and most of the recent polls
:02:22. > :02:27.show a distinct lead for the no campaign. A distinct lead? It is one
:02:28. > :02:33.or two points. It is six in one poll, two in another, aiding
:02:34. > :02:36.another. The poll of polls is a good way of measuring, and is it
:02:37. > :02:41.statistically Nick -- nip and tuck? It is the week the momentum stopped.
:02:42. > :02:44.About a fifth of the electorate That will be a quarter of the
:02:45. > :02:48.turnout have voted already, by postal vote, and they are running
:02:49. > :02:54.very strongly towards no, so there is a whole bank of votes there. The
:02:55. > :02:57.postal votes are skewed to the over 60s, and that is the demographic
:02:58. > :03:03.that the Yes campaign have had the biggest trouble with. Absolutely,
:03:04. > :03:07.the Yes campaign faced a challenge amongst the 16 and 18-year-olds and
:03:08. > :03:13.always based challenge with the older voters. Trust me, I was the
:03:14. > :03:18.decision the day the civil servants made it possible for the 16 to
:03:19. > :03:21.18-year-olds to vote, and we said there was a victory for the no
:03:22. > :03:27.campaign in that alone. The young tend to be conservative by nature. I
:03:28. > :03:35.think again that to say that the momentum has stopped when you had a
:03:36. > :03:39.20 point lead, this is a referendum whether people will speak and they
:03:40. > :03:45.will be heard. Except for the one poll which needs a huge health
:03:46. > :03:47.warning because of the size of the sample, the momentum is
:03:48. > :03:52.unquestionably all the way through August is going in the direction of
:03:53. > :03:58.yes. It hasn't quite continue to get to the 55/45 four yes that Alex
:03:59. > :04:02.Salmond thinks will be the result. I would agree with John. This was the
:04:03. > :04:09.momentum stalled. We saw the three leaders coming up, and that kept
:04:10. > :04:12.Alex Salmond off the front pages on the television and we had a raft of
:04:13. > :04:15.economic warnings which, although they were dismissed as
:04:16. > :04:20.scaremongering, they will have had a lot of traction with voters. What
:04:21. > :04:25.does the no campaign have to do in the final three days? It has to
:04:26. > :04:30.focus on the undecided, relentlessly. It has to do stick to
:04:31. > :04:33.the question of risk and keep pushing back on Alex Salmond to say
:04:34. > :04:38.it doesn't matter if the banks leave, it will all be all right on
:04:39. > :04:41.the night. The huge question amongst the undecided voters is about the
:04:42. > :04:46.economy. It is about jobs and currency, about business. That risk
:04:47. > :04:50.is what will crystallise in the ballot box on Thursday and that has
:04:51. > :04:54.to be the focus. What does the Yes campaign have to do? It has to drive
:04:55. > :04:58.home that the swing to the Yes campaign is motivated by people who
:04:59. > :05:01.want a different politics. They have decided amongst themselves that they
:05:02. > :05:07.want to change Scotland. The unfortunate thing is, even though
:05:08. > :05:10.the no campaign has had the chance to put up after proposals, they have
:05:11. > :05:13.failed. The Scottish people want their powers were a purpose and they
:05:14. > :05:17.say that only the Yes campaign can deliver that. There will be two days
:05:18. > :05:21.of relentless campaigning from today, Monday and Tuesday, then the
:05:22. > :05:27.media, the newspapers, including your own, will come out with the
:05:28. > :05:31.final poll, the ones that will be the closest to the day that the
:05:32. > :05:35.Scots actually go and vote. I think we will see more polling this week,
:05:36. > :05:38.but what is interesting is the extent to which the pollsters are
:05:39. > :05:41.picking up what is going on in the street. We know we have a huge
:05:42. > :05:47.number of voters who have never voted before and are not engage with
:05:48. > :05:50.politics, so what will they do? The third candidate in the election if
:05:51. > :05:53.I can would in this way, are the polls. They might have a lot of
:05:54. > :05:58.questions to answer on Friday morning. We were talking earlier
:05:59. > :06:02.with George and Tommy about the Labour Party's consequences in all
:06:03. > :06:06.of this. Gordon Brown, of course, has had a bit of a second coming as
:06:07. > :06:09.a result of this referendum. I just want to play a clip of Gordon Brown
:06:10. > :06:20.during the campaign and get a reaction. And I say this to Alex
:06:21. > :06:24.Salmond himself. Up until today I am outside front line politics. If he
:06:25. > :06:28.continues to peddle this deception, that the Scottish Parliament under
:06:29. > :06:31.his leadership, and he cannot do anything to improve the health
:06:32. > :06:39.service until he has a separate state, then I will want to join Joe
:06:40. > :06:42.Hanlon want in and securing the return of a Labour government as
:06:43. > :06:49.quickly as possible -- Johann Lamont. That was seen by some people
:06:50. > :06:53.as Gordon Brown implying he might stand for the Scottish Parliament.
:06:54. > :06:59.Whether it is yes or no, is Gordon Brown the saviour of Scottish
:07:00. > :07:02.Labour? I did a double black the other night -- double act with him
:07:03. > :07:07.the other night, and I must say he was a big beast all over again. He
:07:08. > :07:12.crossed the stage Meli dealt with the audience brilliantly. He has a
:07:13. > :07:13.certain presence, Gordon Brown, but he would really have to reinvent
:07:14. > :07:20.himself quite considerably. He is capable of doing, but the man who
:07:21. > :07:34.was the biographer capable of doing, but the man who
:07:35. > :07:39.been critical of the state of the Scottish Labour Party. Rather than
:07:40. > :07:41.looking to Gordon Brown, which might be an interim solution, doesn't
:07:42. > :07:46.Scottish Labour have to find a new generation of people to reignite it?
:07:47. > :07:51.What George and I are agreed on and you have to remember this question
:07:52. > :07:54.of independence see us disagreeing passionately, and in most other
:07:55. > :07:58.things we find ourselves in agreement, one thing is clear,
:07:59. > :08:04.Scottish Labour is finished. They have lost the heart and soul of
:08:05. > :08:07.Scotland. The fact that we are discussing with four days to go an
:08:08. > :09:54.independence referendum that is neck and neck, Labour have
:09:55. > :09:55.independence referendum that is neck what they should have done since
:09:56. > :09:59.then and in other circumstances is what they should have done since
:10:00. > :10:02.take a real look within themselves and brought forward new talent and
:10:03. > :10:05.policies and watch out what they stood for. They've been unable to do
:10:06. > :10:12.that because they are locked in a constitutional row. It is the plan
:10:13. > :10:15.of the Nationalists to fight the first Scottish general election as
:10:16. > :10:18.an independent nation as a nationalist party with its own
:10:19. > :10:24.programme. You don't all go your own way. Why don't you do that? You have
:10:25. > :10:29.more on your main reason to be, so why not go, left, right and centre
:10:30. > :10:33.question you are presuming you don't go the one-way. I do not see the
:10:34. > :10:37.function of the SNP after the yes vote. I think it is clear that there
:10:38. > :10:41.is an SNP under Nicola Sturgeon an SNP which attracts votes from the
:10:42. > :10:45.left and that is the one for me Whether that is called the SNP or
:10:46. > :10:49.something else, I don't know. I think the assumption that we are
:10:50. > :10:57.going into a mirror of old politics in a new world is just fundamentally
:10:58. > :11:00.flawed. That is interesting. Let's just bring in the English
:11:01. > :11:05.dimensional. In many ways, England has not spoken in this referendum
:11:06. > :11:09.campaign. Whether it is yes or no, it will, and to give you a flavour
:11:10. > :11:13.of what some in England might be thinking was saying, here is a clip
:11:14. > :11:19.from John Redwood. We are fed up with this lopsided devolution, this
:11:20. > :11:21.unfair devolution. Scotland gets first-class Devolution, Wales gets
:11:22. > :11:24.second-class devolution and England gets nothing. If Wales wants the
:11:25. > :11:29.same as us, they should have it and then there would be commonality so
:11:30. > :11:32.we could discuss and decide in our own countries, in our own assemblies
:11:33. > :11:40.in Parliament, all those things that are devolved. George, it was clear
:11:41. > :11:42.that if Scotland voted yes for independence it has huge
:11:43. > :11:47.implications for England than the UK, but it's also clear particularly
:11:48. > :11:52.after Gordon Brown's intervention, even if it is no, it has huge
:11:53. > :11:55.applications. You are, I suggest, agreeing with John Redwood that
:11:56. > :12:01.there should be an English boys It would be a step too far for me to
:12:02. > :12:05.agree with him -- English voice I appreciate I might have gone out on
:12:06. > :12:11.a limb. He is the voice of Mars the Balkan from Mars. My own
:12:12. > :12:16.constituents in Bradford are asking, what about us? All these things
:12:17. > :12:20.being done, all the extra mile is being travel to Scotland, what about
:12:21. > :12:25.us? Labour would be well advised to adjust quickly on this so that the
:12:26. > :12:32.John Redwood types do not steal the show. England has yes to use -- yet
:12:33. > :12:35.to speak. It's interesting when you hear a Labour backbencher in
:12:36. > :12:41.Scotland talk about a command paper. He is not in government. Gordon
:12:42. > :12:44.Brown is going round Scotland promising things and he has
:12:45. > :12:49.absolutely no chance of delivering them. The MPs in England will say,
:12:50. > :12:53.hey, what are you talking about We have never been discussed with that?
:12:54. > :12:58.We have not agreed with that. The only way people in Scotland will get
:12:59. > :13:03.the powers they deserve is by voting yes. Crystal ball time, Tommy, you
:13:04. > :13:08.think it is 60/40. I will stick with it, because we have an unprecedented
:13:09. > :13:11.election. 97% of Scotland is registered to vote. The working
:13:12. > :13:20.class will vote in numbers never voted before. George? 55/45 for our
:13:21. > :13:24.side. And if there is a rogue poll, the tek Levesley polled --
:13:25. > :13:28.technically flawed poll, which should not be published because it
:13:29. > :13:31.is so flawed, then we would be stretching towards what I am
:13:32. > :13:37.predicting already. I think in the last few days we will reach that.
:13:38. > :13:40.Come on. If the no campaign can get the silent majority out, they will
:13:41. > :13:47.edge it. You think they will win, but how much? They cannot give up in
:13:48. > :13:52.a second, a moment or a mile. It is that close. It will be won by the
:13:53. > :14:03.passionate view. I will go for a narrow yes victory. I'm the George,
:14:04. > :14:06.53 or 54% in favour of Joe -- no. -- I am with George. I will leave you
:14:07. > :14:08.to argue about that later. Thank you for being with us on the special
:14:09. > :14:10.Sunday politics from Edinburgh. That's all from us today
:14:11. > :14:12.in Scotland. Don't forget the Daily Politics will
:14:13. > :14:14.have continuing coverage of the referendum campaign all this
:14:15. > :14:17.week on BBC2 at midday. On Thursday night Huw Edwards will
:14:18. > :14:20.be in Glasgow and I will be in London to bring you live coverage
:14:21. > :14:24.of the results on BBC1 from 10. 0 pm on a historic night for Scotland
:14:25. > :14:27.and the rest of the United Kingdom. And I'll be back next Sunday
:14:28. > :14:30.when we're live from the Labour Unless, of course, the referendum
:14:31. > :14:38.result is so tumultuous even the Remember if it's Sunday,
:14:39. > :14:43.it's the Sunday Politics.