:00:37. > :00:39.Morning folks and welcome to The Sunday Politics,
:00:40. > :00:45.live from the Conservative Conference in Birmingham.
:00:46. > :00:46.There will be one less Conservati6e MP here after Mark Reckles3 ddfected
:00:47. > :00:47.There will be one less Conservati6e MP here after Mark eckles3 ddfected
:00:48. > :00:52.He joins us live from his constituency, w`ere he h!s
:00:53. > :01:00.It has not been the best of start3 for the Prime Minister, as he
:01:01. > :01:02.arrives in Birmingham for the last Tory conference before the election.
:01:03. > :01:05.On top of the Reckless defection, a junior Tory minister has reqigned
:01:06. > :01:14.RAF jets have carried out their first mission over Iraq
:01:15. > :01:24.And in the South West: As Tory defections to UKIP `gain
:01:25. > :01:27.dominate the headlines, we talk to the former UKIP candidate
:01:28. > :01:28.from Cornwall who's now a Tory
:01:29. > :01:33.In London, how the richest 1% are pulling further away, and why those
:01:34. > :01:38.priced out are choosing to move away.
:01:39. > :01:42.And joining me, three of the country's most loyal journalists,
:01:43. > :01:45.who sadly have yet to resign or defect to our inferior rivals.
:01:46. > :01:51.Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh.
:01:52. > :01:55.And, of course, they'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:56. > :01:58.And you too can get involved by using the hashtag #BBCSP.
:01:59. > :02:01.At the current rate of Tory resignations,
:02:02. > :02:05.Mr Cameron could be speaking to an empty hall when he makes his keynote
:02:06. > :02:08.address to the Tory conference here in Birmingham tomorrow.
:02:09. > :02:12.It's been a classic car crash of a start to the conference, with a UKIP
:02:13. > :02:15.defection, a minister shamed into resignation by a sex scandal and
:02:16. > :02:22.Ed Miliband's memory lapses now look like a little local difficulty.
:02:23. > :02:29.Here's what the Prime Minister had to say
:02:30. > :02:41.These things are frustrating and frankly counter-productive and
:02:42. > :02:45.rather senseless. If you want to have a European referendum, if you
:02:46. > :02:48.want to get the deficit down, if you want to build a stronger Britain
:02:49. > :02:52.that we can be proud of, there is only one option, which is to have a
:02:53. > :02:54.Conservative government after the next election.
:02:55. > :03:02.And Mark Reckless joins me now from Rochester.
:03:03. > :03:09.Welcome to the programme. Why did you lie to all your Conservative
:03:10. > :03:13.colleagues and mislead those who elected you? Well, I am keeping
:03:14. > :03:17.faith with my constituents and keeping my promises to them. You
:03:18. > :03:20.heard the Prime Minister saying that the Conservative led government was
:03:21. > :03:25.dealing with the deficit and cutting immigration. The reality is, we have
:03:26. > :03:29.increased the national debt by more in five years than even Labour
:03:30. > :03:34.managed in 13, and immigration is back up to the levels we saw under
:03:35. > :03:38.Labour. I believe in the promises I made in 2010, and I want to keep my
:03:39. > :03:41.words to my electorate, not least to deal with the deficit, cut
:03:42. > :03:46.immigration, reform the political system, to localise powers back to
:03:47. > :03:49.the community, particularly over house-building. The government has
:03:50. > :03:54.broken its word on all those things are. I want to keep my word to my
:03:55. > :04:00.voters here, and that is why I have done what I have done, by moving to
:04:01. > :04:04.UKIP. You have not kept your words to your Conservative constituency
:04:05. > :04:08.chairman. You assured him 48 hours ago that you would not defect, and
:04:09. > :04:13.you left his voice mail on the Conservative Party chairman's office
:04:14. > :04:18.telephone, missing to come to Birmingham to campaign for the
:04:19. > :04:39.Tories. This is your voice mail .. I have just picked up your e-mail ..
:04:40. > :04:44.So, Friday night, telling Grant Shapps you are coming to Birmingham
:04:45. > :04:51.to campaign for the Tories. The next day, you are joining UKIP. Why did
:04:52. > :04:56.you are a? I sounded a bit more hesitant on that call than I usually
:04:57. > :04:58.do, and I am not sure if that was the full conversation. But you
:04:59. > :05:02.cannot discuss these things in advance, you have to make a
:05:03. > :05:06.decision. I have decided the future of this country is better served by
:05:07. > :05:12.UKIP then it is by the Conservative Party under David Cameron. I made a
:05:13. > :05:21.lot of promises to my constituents, and I want to keep those promises.
:05:22. > :05:27.That is why I am moving to UKIP so I can deliver the change this
:05:28. > :05:33.country really needs. In May of this year, you said that Nigel Farage,
:05:34. > :05:38.quote, poses the most serious threat to a Tory victory at the election.
:05:39. > :05:44.So, you agree, voting UKIP means a Labour government? I think voting
:05:45. > :05:47.UKIP means getting UKIP. While in the past a disproportionate number
:05:48. > :05:51.of UKIP people were ex-Conservatives, now, they are
:05:52. > :05:54.winning a lot more people, from all parties. People are so disillusioned
:05:55. > :05:57.with the political class in Westminster, that they have not
:05:58. > :06:02.voted often for a generation. Those are the people Nigel Farage is
:06:03. > :06:07.inspiring, and frankly, he has also inspired me. What he has done in the
:06:08. > :06:12.last 20 years, building his party, getting people from all walks of
:06:13. > :06:15.life, sending up for ordinary people, I think deserves support.
:06:16. > :06:22.That is a key reason why I am moving. UKIP are now the agents of
:06:23. > :06:27.change. You said it poses them a serious threat to a Tory victory? My
:06:28. > :06:31.ambition is not a Tory victory. We made all of these promises in 2 10
:06:32. > :06:34.as Conservatives, and they have been broken. We now hear from David
:06:35. > :06:39.Cameron about English votes for English laws, supported by Nick
:06:40. > :06:42.Clegg as well, but that is what we said in our manifesto in 2010, and
:06:43. > :06:46.we have done absolutely nothing about it. It is not credible now to
:06:47. > :06:52.pretend that you are going to do those things. They have omitted to
:06:53. > :06:59.give every Scot ?1600 per year in definitely. If you want to stand up
:07:00. > :07:08.for the English taxpayer, and really tackle the debt, then UKIP are the
:07:09. > :07:12.party who will do that. But there is nothing principled about this, this
:07:13. > :07:17.is just an attempt to save your skin. You said UKIP stopped you
:07:18. > :07:21.winning in 2005 - UKIP did not stand in 2010, and you won. You are
:07:22. > :07:26.frightened that UKIP would beat you in the next election, this is to
:07:27. > :07:30.save your skin to me you think I am doing this because I am frightened,
:07:31. > :07:34.you think this is the easy option, to abandon my position in
:07:35. > :07:45.Parliament, but my principles on the line? On the contrary, you look at
:07:46. > :07:49.MPs who have moved party before almost none of them have given their
:07:50. > :07:53.voters to chance to have a say on what they have done. I am asking
:07:54. > :07:57.permission from my voters, and I am moving to UKIP because I believe
:07:58. > :08:01.many of the people in my constituency have been let down by a
:08:02. > :08:04.Conservative led government, and that what UKIP is saying appeals to
:08:05. > :08:12.decent, hard-working people, who want to see real change in our
:08:13. > :08:15.country. If they do not agree, then they can vote in a by-election and
:08:16. > :08:23.have their say on who they want to be their MP. I am being open and
:08:24. > :08:27.honest, giving people a say. I am trying to do the right thing by my
:08:28. > :08:32.constituents, and whatever the risk is to me personally, I think it is
:08:33. > :08:36.the right thing to do. It is what MPs should be in politics to try and
:08:37. > :08:43.do for the people they represent. Your defection, coming after Douglas
:08:44. > :08:45.Carswell's, confirms the claim that UKIP is largely a depository for
:08:46. > :08:52.disaffected right-wing Tories like yourself, isn't it? On the contrary,
:08:53. > :08:55.the number of people I met in Doncaster yesterday was
:08:56. > :09:00.extraordinary. When I first went to Conservative conferences 20 years
:09:01. > :09:03.ago, there was some enthusiasm for politics, I remember Norman Tebbit
:09:04. > :09:07.speaking against Maastricht, people fought they could change things
:09:08. > :09:12.there was real politics. But I do not think you will see that at
:09:13. > :09:15.Birmingham this week, it is PR people, lobbyists, corporate, few
:09:16. > :09:19.ordinary members of. At Ancaster, people had saved up for months just
:09:20. > :09:24.to get the rail ticket to Doncaster. People who believe in UKIP, who
:09:25. > :09:31.believe in Nigel Farage, who believe in the team, as agents of change,
:09:32. > :09:38.who can actually deal with a political class at Westminster which
:09:39. > :09:41.has let able down. We want proper reform to the political system,
:09:42. > :09:48.which David Cameron promises but does not deliver. Final question -
:09:49. > :09:51.after the next election, the Prime Minister is going to be either David
:09:52. > :09:57.Cameron or Ed Miliband, that is the choice, one or the other - who would
:09:58. > :10:01.you prefer? Well, what we would prefer is to get the most UKIP
:10:02. > :10:08.policies implemented. We want a first rate we want to deal with
:10:09. > :10:14.immigration. I asked about who you wanted to be Prime Minister. We will
:10:15. > :10:19.look at the circumstances. We need as many UKIP MPs as possible, to
:10:20. > :10:32.restore trust in politics. If people vote UKIP, they will get UKIP. How
:10:33. > :10:37.serious is this? I think it is very serious. It is the old Tory disease,
:10:38. > :10:40.destroyed John Major, and it has been bubbling away again. It is
:10:41. > :10:44.beginning to feel like the worst days of Labour in the early nineteen
:10:45. > :10:50.eighties. It matters, because people care passionately. It is nothing
:10:51. > :10:55.like Labour in the early 1980s, it is bad, but it is nothing like that.
:10:56. > :10:59.There are these very strong strands. People like David Davis
:11:00. > :11:02.writing a large piece in the Daily Mail attacking the leader on the
:11:03. > :11:06.first day of the conference. That is the kind of thing that Labour used
:11:07. > :11:12.to do. That is what David Davis does all the time! But this is authentic
:11:13. > :11:17.in the sense that there is a real, genuine dispute about Europe. Some
:11:18. > :11:20.of us were not around in the 19 0s, but I imagine it is pretty bad.
:11:21. > :11:24.There is the short-term problem of the by-election they might lose the
:11:25. > :11:27.media problem of the general election which they cannot win if
:11:28. > :11:30.UKIP remain anywhere near their current level of support. But in
:11:31. > :11:35.many ways the longer term question is the most pressing, which is, does
:11:36. > :11:39.it make sense for the Conservative Party to remain one party, or would
:11:40. > :11:44.it not be better for the hard-core of 20-30 intransigent Eurosceptics
:11:45. > :11:50.to essentially join UKIP or form their own party? At least the
:11:51. > :11:54.Conservatives would become more internally manageable. And probably
:11:55. > :12:00.lose the next election. Probably, yes. That is what you are advising
:12:01. > :12:05.them? If the reward is to have a coherent party in 15 years' time. It
:12:06. > :12:11.is just as well you are a columnist, not a party strategist. I
:12:12. > :12:16.was an anorak in the 1980s, who watched the Labour conference on the
:12:17. > :12:20.TV. Were you wearing your anorak? Of course I was, that is how sad I am.
:12:21. > :12:24.But once again the crisis from UKIP has forced the Prime Minister to
:12:25. > :12:29.step in an even more Eurosceptic direction. Said on television what
:12:30. > :12:34.he was trying not to say, which is that if he does not get his way in
:12:35. > :12:38.the European negotiations, he will recommend to the British people that
:12:39. > :12:42.we should go. He began by saying, as I have always said, and when they
:12:43. > :12:47.say that, you know they are saying something new. He basically said,
:12:48. > :12:52.Britain should not stay if it is not in Britain's interests. I think this
:12:53. > :12:59.is big stakes for both the Tories and four UKIP. The Tories are able
:13:00. > :13:03.to write off Clacton. Rochester is number 271 on the UKIP friendly
:13:04. > :13:08.list. If the Tories win it, big moment for them. If UKIP lose it,
:13:09. > :13:20.this strategy of various will be facing a bit of a setback.
:13:21. > :13:22.To what extent are Mark Reckless's views shared by Conservative
:13:23. > :13:27.The Sunday Politics commissioned an exclusive poll of Conservative
:13:28. > :13:31.Pollsters ComRes spoke to over ,000 councillors -
:13:32. > :13:34.that's almost an eighth of their council base - and Eleanor Garnier
:13:35. > :13:48.There is not a single party conference at the seaside this year,
:13:49. > :13:51.and Sunday Politics could not get through them all without a trip to
:13:52. > :13:55.the coast. So here we are on the shore in Sussex. There are plenty of
:13:56. > :14:01.Conservative councillors here, and Tory MPs as well, but one challenge
:14:02. > :14:07.they all face is UKIP, who have got their sights on coastal towns.
:14:08. > :14:10.Places like Worthing East and surer and, with high numbers of
:14:11. > :14:15.pensioners, providing rich pickings for UKIP. In West Sussex, the Tories
:14:16. > :14:22.run the county council, but UKIP are the official opposition, with ten
:14:23. > :14:26.councillors. We cannot lose any more ground to UKIP. If we lose any more
:14:27. > :14:30.ground, if you look at the way it has swung from us to them, it is
:14:31. > :14:34.getting near to being the middle point, where we might start losing
:14:35. > :14:43.seats which we have always regarded as safe seats. So, it has got to be
:14:44. > :14:46.stemmed, it cannot go any further. Our exclusive survey looked at the
:14:47. > :14:52.policy areas where the Conservatives are vulnerable to UKIP. If an EU
:14:53. > :14:58.Referendum Bill is called tomorrow, 45% say they would vote to leave,
:14:59. > :15:10.39% would stay in. Asked about immigration...
:15:11. > :15:18.It was those issues, Europe and immigration, that Mark Reckless said
:15:19. > :15:23.were the head of his decision. I promised to cut immigration while
:15:24. > :15:28.treating people fairly and humanely. I cannot keep that promise as a
:15:29. > :15:32.Conservative, I can keep it as UKIP. When asked if Conservative
:15:33. > :15:37.councillors would like an electoral pact with UKIP in the run-up to the
:15:38. > :15:44.general election, one third said they support the idea. 63% are
:15:45. > :15:49.opposed and 7% don't know. Conservative councillors who left
:15:50. > :15:56.the party to join UKIP say it wasn't easy. I left because basically the
:15:57. > :16:01.Conservatives left me. I saw it as a difficult decision to change, but
:16:02. > :16:10.what I was seeing with UKIP was freed. Me being able to speak for my
:16:11. > :16:15.residents. Back to our survey and on climate change 49% said it was
:16:16. > :16:22.happening, but that humans are not to blame. Our survey showed that 60%
:16:23. > :16:28.think David Cameron was wrong to pursue legalising gay marriage, with
:16:29. > :16:33.31% saying it was the right thing to do and 9% not sure. In Worthing
:16:34. > :16:39.councillors said gay marriage was divisive. That has really been an
:16:40. > :16:46.issue here, it might have damaged the party slightly, and I think in a
:16:47. > :16:51.way by setting a rule like that it is a very religious thing and it is
:16:52. > :16:57.almost trying to play God to make that decision. But some of the
:16:58. > :17:03.party's toughest decisions have been over the economy. 56% in our survey
:17:04. > :17:08.thought the spending cuts the Government has so far announced have
:17:09. > :17:14.not gone far enough. 6% were not sure. They are prepared for
:17:15. > :17:19.difficult decisions, but local activists say the party's voice must
:17:20. > :17:25.be clearer. I think the message has to be more forceful, it has to be
:17:26. > :17:31.specially targeted to the ex-Conservative voters who now vote
:17:32. > :17:34.UKIP, especially in this area, the vast majority of UKIP people are
:17:35. > :17:39.disillusioned Conservatives. The message has to be loud and strong,
:17:40. > :17:43.come back and we are the party to give you what you want. With just
:17:44. > :17:48.eight months until the general election, the pressure is on and
:17:49. > :17:55.local Conservatives are searching for clues to help their party stem
:17:56. > :18:01.the flow of defections. Joining me now is William Hague, the former
:18:02. > :18:05.Foreign Secretary and the Leader of the House of Commons.
:18:06. > :18:08.Tories like Mark Reckless are defecting to UKIP because they don't
:18:09. > :18:14.trust the party leadership to deliver on Europe, do they? They
:18:15. > :18:19.believe people like you and David Cameron will campaign to stay in and
:18:20. > :18:25.they are right. They said before they defected that people should
:18:26. > :18:31.vote Conservative to get a referendum on Europe, and that is
:18:32. > :18:35.right of course. The only way to get a referendum is to do that and this
:18:36. > :18:40.is the point, the people should decide. However a future government
:18:41. > :18:45.decides it will campaign, it should be the people of the country who
:18:46. > :18:50.decide. Can you say to our viewers this morning that is not enough
:18:51. > :18:55.powers are repatriated back to Britain, you would want to come
:18:56. > :19:01.out, can you say that? Our objective is to get those powers and stay in.
:19:02. > :19:06.The answer to the question is I won't be deciding, David Cameron
:19:07. > :19:12.won't be deciding, you the voters will be deciding. But you have to
:19:13. > :19:17.give us your view. If you don't get enough powers back, would you vote
:19:18. > :19:23.to come out and recommended? Our objective is to get those powers and
:19:24. > :19:27.be able to stay in. You just get endless speculation years in
:19:28. > :19:32.advance. I will decide at the time how I will vote. Surely that is the
:19:33. > :19:37.rational position for everyone to take but I want a referendum to take
:19:38. > :19:42.place. I understand that. As you pointed out to Mark Reckless just
:19:43. > :19:46.now, unless there is a Conservative government, people won't have that
:19:47. > :19:55.choice. Under a Labour government they will not get a choice at all.
:19:56. > :19:59.Our survey of Tory councillors shows that almost 50% would vote to leave
:20:00. > :20:07.the EU in a referendum. I think it showed, wasn't it 45, and 39%, but
:20:08. > :20:13.again, I'm pretty sure they will decide at the time. They will want
:20:14. > :20:17.to see what a future government achieves in a renegotiation before
:20:18. > :20:21.they decide what to vote in a referendum. Unless David Cameron is
:20:22. > :20:29.Prime Minister and there is a Conservative government, there will
:20:30. > :20:34.not be a renegotiation. That is a point you have made four times. I
:20:35. > :20:37.think they have got it. Your Cabinet colleague says we should not be
:20:38. > :20:42.scared of quitting the EU, but you went native in the Foreign Office,
:20:43. > :20:47.didn't you? You used to be a Eurosceptic, you are now the Foreign
:20:48. > :20:52.Office line man. No, I don't think so! We brought back the first
:20:53. > :20:59.reduced European budget ever in history. Even Margaret Thatcher ..
:21:00. > :21:04.Leaving the EU scares you, doesn't it? Not much scares me after 26
:21:05. > :21:13.years in politics but we want to do the best thing for the country.
:21:14. > :21:17.Where we scared when we got us out of liability for Eurozone bailouts?
:21:18. > :21:20.We were not scared of anybody. People said we couldn't achieve
:21:21. > :21:28.things but we negotiated these things. We can do that with a wider
:21:29. > :21:34.negotiation in Europe. Mr Reckless says he cannot keep the Conservative
:21:35. > :21:48.promise to tackle immigration. You have failed to keep your promise to
:21:49. > :21:54.keep net immigration down. You promised to cut it below 100,00 ,
:21:55. > :22:12.you failed. It is over 200,000 people. We have cut it from 250 000
:22:13. > :22:20.in 2005, the last figures were 240,000. I think we can file that
:22:21. > :22:24.under F four failed. It includes students, we want them in the
:22:25. > :22:29.country. You knew that when you made the promise. But has it come down?
:22:30. > :22:35.Yes, it has. Have we stopped the promise. But has it come down?
:22:36. > :22:40.coming here because of our benefit system? Yes. None of that happened
:22:41. > :22:46.under Labour. If Mark Reckless had his way, it would be more likely we
:22:47. > :22:51.would have a Labour government. They have an open door policy on
:22:52. > :22:57.immigration. You are not just losing MPs to UKIP, you are losing voters.
:22:58. > :23:02.Polling by Michael Ashcroft shows that 20% of people who voted Tory in
:23:03. > :23:07.2010 have abandoned youth and three quarters of them are voting UKIP
:23:08. > :23:13.now. We will see in the general election. Politics is very fluid in
:23:14. > :23:18.this country and we shouldn't deny that in any way but UKIP thought
:23:19. > :23:22.they were going to win the by-election in Newark, we had a
:23:23. > :23:27.thumping Conservative victory, and I think opinion polls are snapshots of
:23:28. > :23:31.opinion now. They are not forecast of the general election and we will
:23:32. > :23:35.be doing everything we can to get our message across. Today we are
:23:36. > :23:40.announcing 3 million more apprenticeships in the next
:23:41. > :23:45.Parliament. I think this is what people will be voting on, rather
:23:46. > :23:53.than who has defected. Your activist base once parked with UKIP. Our
:23:54. > :23:59.survey shows a third of Tory councillors would like a formal pact
:24:00. > :24:08.with UKIP. Why not? It shows two thirds are against it. No, it shows
:24:09. > :24:15.one third want it. I read the figures, it showed 67% don't want
:24:16. > :24:19.it. We are not going to make a pact with other parties, and they don't
:24:20. > :24:26.work in the British electoral system even if they were desirable. You are
:24:27. > :24:31.sharing the Cabinet committee on English votes for English laws. Is
:24:32. > :24:36.further devolution for Scotland conditional on progress towards
:24:37. > :24:39.English devolution? No, the commitment to Scotland is
:24:40. > :24:43.unconditional. We will meet the commitments to Scotland but we
:24:44. > :24:47.believe, we the Conservatives believe, that in tandem with that we
:24:48. > :24:53.have to resolve these questions about fairness to the rest of the UK
:24:54. > :24:57.as well. That will depend on other parties or the general election
:24:58. > :25:03.result. Are you committed to the Gordon Brown timetable? Yes,
:25:04. > :25:08.absolutely. So you are committed to producing draft legislation by Burns
:25:09. > :25:13.night, that is at the end of January. Will you produce proposals
:25:14. > :25:18.for English votes on English laws by then? We will, but whether they are
:25:19. > :25:24.agreed across the parties will depend on the other parties. There
:25:25. > :25:32.was no sign that they were agreeable at the Labour conference. We will
:25:33. > :25:36.produce our ideas on the same timetable as the timetable for
:25:37. > :25:40.Scottish devolution. You will therefore bring forward proposals
:25:41. > :25:46.for English votes for English laws by the end of January? Yes. And will
:25:47. > :25:50.you attempt to get them on the statute book before the election?
:25:51. > :25:56.The commitment in Scotland is to legislate after the election. You
:25:57. > :26:01.will publish a bill beforehand? We will publish proposals beforehand. I
:26:02. > :26:05.don't exclude doing something before the election, but the Scottish
:26:06. > :26:10.timetable is to legislate for the further devolution after the general
:26:11. > :26:16.election, whoever wins the election. Have you given thought as to what
:26:17. > :26:22.English votes for English laws would mean? I have thought a lot of it
:26:23. > :26:27.over 15 years. I am not going to prejudge what the outcome will be,
:26:28. > :26:32.but it does mean in essence that when decisions are taken, decisions
:26:33. > :26:37.that only affect England or only England and Wales, then only the MPs
:26:38. > :26:41.from England and Wales should be making those decisions. You can
:26:42. > :26:45.achieve that in many different ways. Is that it for English
:26:46. > :26:51.devolution, is that what it amounts to? That is devolution to England if
:26:52. > :26:56.you like, but within England there is a lot of other devolution going
:26:57. > :27:01.on and we might well want to extend that further. We have given more
:27:02. > :27:06.freedom to local authorities, there is a lot of scope to do more of
:27:07. > :27:15.that, but that in itself is not the answer to the problem of what
:27:16. > :27:20.happens at Westminster. You haven't just given Scotland more devolution
:27:21. > :27:25.or planned to do it, you have also enshrined the Barnett formula and
:27:26. > :27:29.that seems to be in perpetuity. It is widely regarded as being unfair
:27:30. > :27:34.to Wales and many of the poorer English regions. Why do you
:27:35. > :27:41.perpetuate it? It will become less relevant overtime if more
:27:42. > :27:47.tax-raising powers... It goes all the way back to the 1970s, we made a
:27:48. > :27:51.commitment on that, we will keep our commitments to Scotland as more --
:27:52. > :27:59.but as more tax-raising powers devolved, the Barnett formula is
:28:00. > :28:04.less significant. If you transfer ?5 billion of tax-raising powers to
:28:05. > :28:09.Scotland, 5 billion comes off the Barnett formula? It will be a lot
:28:10. > :28:14.more complicated than that, but yes, as their own decisions about
:28:15. > :28:19.taxation are made, the grand from Westminster will go down. And you
:28:20. > :28:23.can guarantee that if there is a majority Conservative government,
:28:24. > :28:27.there will be English votes for English laws after the election
:28:28. > :28:31.Yes, I stress again that there are different ways of doing it but if
:28:32. > :28:35.there is no cross-party agreement on that, the Conservatives will produce
:28:36. > :28:40.our proposals and campaign for them in the general election. Don't go
:28:41. > :28:46.away because I want to move on to some other matters.
:28:47. > :28:49.Now to the fight against so-called Islamic State terrorists.
:28:50. > :28:51.Yesterday, RAF Tornado jets carried out their first flights over Iraq
:28:52. > :28:54.since MPs gave their approval for air-strikes against the militants.
:28:55. > :29:03.When you face a situation with psychobabble -- psychopathic killers
:29:04. > :29:07.who have already brutally beheaded one of our own citizens, who have
:29:08. > :29:12.already launched and tried to execute plots in our own country to
:29:13. > :29:17.maim innocent people, we have a choice - we can either stand back
:29:18. > :29:21.from this and say it is too difficult, let's let someone else
:29:22. > :29:25.try to keep our country safe, or we take the correct decision to have a
:29:26. > :29:30.full, comprehensive strategy but let's be prepared to play our role
:29:31. > :29:34.to make sure these people cannot do not trust harm.
:29:35. > :29:37.And William Hague is still with me - until July he was, of course,
:29:38. > :29:49.Why have only six Tornado jets being mobilised? Do not assume that is all
:29:50. > :29:53.that will be taking part in this operation. That is all that has been
:29:54. > :30:01.announced and I do not think we should speculate. Even the Danes are
:30:02. > :30:03.sending more fighter jets. There is no restriction in the House of
:30:04. > :30:09.Commons resolution passed on Friday on what we can do. So why so
:30:10. > :30:14.little? Do not underestimate what our Tornados can do. They have some
:30:15. > :30:18.unique capabilities, capabilities which have been specifically asked
:30:19. > :30:22.for by our allies. When you are on the wrong end of six Tornados, it
:30:23. > :30:27.will not feel like a small effort. But there will be other things which
:30:28. > :30:31.can add to that effort. We are joining in a month after the
:30:32. > :30:37.operation started, we are late, we are behind America, France,
:30:38. > :30:40.Australia, Jordan, the UAE, Bahrain, Qatar, one hand tied behind our
:30:41. > :30:45.backs cause of the rule about not attacking Syria - why is the British
:30:46. > :30:49.government leading from behind? First of all, we are a democratic
:30:50. > :30:55.country, and you know all about Parliamentary approval. You could
:30:56. > :30:59.have recalled parliament. We have done that, with a political
:31:00. > :31:04.consensus. Other European countries also took the decision on Friday to
:31:05. > :31:07.send their military assets. Our allies are absolutely content with
:31:08. > :31:10.that, and Britain will play an important role, along with many
:31:11. > :31:18.other nations, including Arab nations. General Sir David Richards
:31:19. > :31:23.Sheriff, who just steps down as the Nato Deputy Supreme Commander, he
:31:24. > :31:25.condemns the spineless lack of leadership and the absence of any
:31:26. > :31:36.credible strategy. It is embarrassing,isn't it? Of course,
:31:37. > :31:37.they turn into armchair generals. We are playing an important role, we
:31:38. > :31:40.are a democratic country. are playing an important role, we
:31:41. > :31:44.are a democratic countpy. Youp viewers will remember, we (ad a vote
:31:45. > :31:48.last year on military action hn Syria and we were defeated in t`e
:31:49. > :31:50.House of Commons, a bad mo-ent for our foreign policy. We have taken
:31:51. > :31:52.care to bring this forward our foreign policy. We have taken
:31:53. > :31:52.care to `ring this forward whdn our foreign policy. We have taken
:31:53. > :31:54.care to bring this forward when we can win a vote in the House of
:31:55. > :31:55.can win a vote in t(e House of Commons, and that is how we wild
:31:56. > :32:02.proceed. The air Chief Commons, and that is how we wild
:32:03. > :32:02.proceed. The aip Chief Mar3hal Commons, and that is how we wild
:32:03. > :32:04.proceed. The air Chief Mar3hal until proceed. The aip Chief Mar3hal until
:32:05. > :32:06.recently in chapge of the AF, `e says, it makes no sense to bomb Iraq
:32:07. > :32:07.but not says, it makes no sense to bomb Iraq
:32:08. > :32:08.bqt not Syria. says, it makes no sense to bomb Iraq
:32:09. > :32:13.but not Syria. He c!llq the ddcasion but not Syria. He c!lls the ddcasion
:32:14. > :32:15.ludicrous. Of course, it D ES make sense to bomb Ipaq, beaause the
:32:16. > :32:17.Iraqi government has aqked fop sense to bomb Ipaq, beaause the
:32:18. > :32:23.Iraqi government `as aqked fop gur Iraqi government has aqked fop gur
:32:24. > :32:27.assistance. This came up a lot an the debate on Fpiday, and the Pri-e
:32:28. > :32:30.Minister explained, similar to wh!t I have just been saying, t(at t`ere
:32:31. > :32:33.is not a political conqens5s `bgut is not a political conqens5s `bout
:32:34. > :32:37.Syria in the House of Aommons. When Syria in the House of Aommons. Ghen
:32:38. > :32:38.we did it last year, we were defeated, and it
:32:39. > :32:39.we did it last year, we were dafeated, and it was
:32:40. > :32:41.we did it last year, we were defeated, and it was described by
:32:42. > :32:47.all commentators as a huge blow to the government and to our foreign
:32:48. > :32:47.policy. So, we will bring forward proposals when there iq
:32:48. > :32:48.policy. So, we will bring forward proposals when there is a
:32:49. > :32:50.policy. So, we will bring forward proposals when there iq a -ajorat9
:32:51. > :32:55.in this country to do qo i. the House of Commons. Professor Mic`ael
:32:56. > :33:00.Clarke, one of the world top dxperts on military strategy and history, he
:33:01. > :33:02.says there are very few am0ortaft on military strategy and history, he
:33:03. > :33:06.says there are very few im0ortaft IS targets in northern Iraq, that they
:33:07. > :33:10.are all in Syria, and we are limiting ourselves to the 0erip`ery
:33:11. > :33:11.of the campaign. First of !ll, bu3t bacause you
:33:12. > :33:14.of the campaign. First of !ll, bu3t because you are not doing evepything
:33:15. > :33:16.does not mean you should not do something. Secondly, the U.ited
:33:17. > :33:16.States something. Secondly, the U.ited
:33:17. > :33:16.Spates and something. Secondly, the U.ited
:33:17. > :33:17.States and other something. Secondly, the U.ited
:33:18. > :33:18.Spates and other countpies something. Secondly, the U.ited
:33:19. > :33:19.States and other countpies are Spates and other countpies are
:33:20. > :33:22.engaged in the action agai.st targets in Syria. This is
:33:23. > :33:22.engaged in the action agai.st targets in Syria. T(is is !
:33:23. > :33:28.targets in Syria. This is ! coalition effort, with peo0le doi.g
:33:29. > :33:31.different things. Thirdly, if we were to put their proposal to t`e
:33:32. > :33:33.House of Commons tomorpow, and at was defeated, we would not have
:33:34. > :33:38.achieved a great deal. You do not achieved a great de!l. You do not
:33:39. > :33:40.know it would have "een defeated. The Labour Party has given no
:33:41. > :33:44.indication they would have supported indication they would have suppgrted
:33:45. > :33:47.that. So, you ape hostage to the Labour Party? We have to win `
:33:48. > :33:47.damocratic Labour Party? We have to win `
:33:48. > :33:48.democratic vote in Labour Party? We have to win `
:33:49. > :33:48.damocratic vote in the Labour Party? We have to win `
:33:49. > :33:51.democratic vote in the Hou3e of democratic vote in the House of
:33:52. > :33:52.Commons, and the Laboup @arty is ! very large part of the Hou3e of
:33:53. > :33:55.Commons. You are as+ing very large part of the Hou3e of
:33:56. > :33:58.Commons. You are asking us to pur3ue Commons. You are as+ing us to pur3ue
:33:59. > :33:58.a policy which at the mome.t aoul$ be defeated
:33:59. > :34:00.a policy which at the mome.t aoul$ ba defeated in Parliament.
:34:01. > :34:01.a policy which at the mome.t aoul$ be defeated in Parliament. Is it
:34:02. > :34:03.a policy which at the mome.t aoul$ ba defeated in Parliament. Is it .ot
:34:04. > :34:08.embarrassing to be on the wrong side of so many of these military
:34:09. > :34:08.experts? Why should we tru3t the judgment of here today,
:34:09. > :34:12.experts? Why should we tru3t the judgment of here to$ay, go.e
:34:13. > :34:19.tomorrow, politicians? We (avd the military experts with us now. We
:34:20. > :34:22.have a national security counaid, we do not have sofa government, tndi+e
:34:23. > :34:26.the last government. The n!tional security council is chaire$ bx the
:34:27. > :34:29.Prime Minister. Alongside the C`ief of Defence Staff and
:34:30. > :34:29.Prime Minister. Alongside the C`ief of Defence Staff an$ the headq gf
:34:30. > :34:37.of Defence Staff an$ the headq of the intelligence agencies. And we
:34:38. > :34:38.take decisions togethep with the people who have the
:34:39. > :34:42.take decisions togethep with the paople who have the inform!tion
:34:43. > :34:46.now. So, you will know w`at Bpiti3h and American intelligence 3ayq about
:34:47. > :34:49.Syria. The Prime Minister (as sai$ there is a danger that t`e
:34:50. > :34:53.there is a danger t(at t`e British-born jihadists wall come
:34:54. > :34:55.back and attack us. But the intelligence reports which you will
:34:56. > :34:56.have seen are clear - Al-Q!ed` an$ ips
:34:57. > :35:01.have seen are clear - Al-Q!ed` an$ its associates are selecti.g,
:35:02. > :35:05.indoctrinating and trainan' jihadists in Sypia, not Ar!q. Doe3
:35:06. > :35:07.jihadists in Sypia, not Ar!q. Dge3 that not make the Syrian exclusao.
:35:08. > :35:08.even more ludicpous? that not make the Syrian exclusao.
:35:09. > :35:15.even more ludicrous? I can.ot comment on intelligence. I3 the
:35:16. > :35:22.situation in Sypia direct threat to this country? Ies, it i3. Have we
:35:23. > :35:26.excluded action? No, we `a6en't Could you come `ack to t`e House?
:35:27. > :35:30.The Prime Minister said, it was i. the motion put to the House of
:35:31. > :35:35.Commons, that if we want to take action in Cyria, we will come bac+
:35:36. > :35:39.to the House of Commonq. B5t we h!ve not taken any decision abo5t that
:35:40. > :35:44.and we would not do so if we thou'ht we were going to be defeated `gai..
:35:45. > :35:46.The government supports ES stpice3 on Syria, show you must relieve t(ey
:35:47. > :35:49.are legal. Either w!y the on Syria, show you must relieve t(ey
:35:50. > :35:51.are legal. Either way the legal are legal. Either w!y the leg`l
:35:52. > :35:52.basis differs from are legal. Either w!y the leg`l
:35:53. > :35:53.basis differs fpom one are legal. Either w!y the leg`l
:35:54. > :35:53.basis differs from one cou.try are legal. Either w!y the leg`l
:35:54. > :35:57.basis differs fpom one cou.try to another, according to their readi.g
:35:58. > :36:03.of international law. @ut 9ou have supported it. We do believe that
:36:04. > :36:04.they and Arab countries are takan' action legally and we qupport t`eir
:36:05. > :36:07.action. @ut I action legally and we qupport t`eir
:36:08. > :36:07.action. But I understand action legally and we qupport t`eir
:36:08. > :36:12.action. @ut I understand your legitimate questions. @ut it aoee3
:36:13. > :36:13.back to your basic questio., legitimate questions. @ut it aoee3
:36:14. > :36:14.back to your basic questao., why legitimate questions. @ut it aoee3
:36:15. > :36:18.back to your basic questio., why in Iraq and not Syria.
:36:19. > :36:20.back to your basic questio., why in Iraq and not Sypia. Nonetheleqs$ it
:36:21. > :36:25.is important to take aatio. in Iraq. We are also engaged in Qyri!
:36:26. > :36:26.in building up the politic!l strength of
:36:27. > :36:26.in building up the politic!l sprength of the more
:36:27. > :36:31.in building up the politic!l strength of the more moder!te
:36:32. > :36:35.opposition and in trying to bpifg about a peace agreement, a.d we do
:36:36. > :36:41.not exclude action in Qyri! in the future. If we ppopose doan'
:36:42. > :36:42.future. If we ppopose doin' something, then we ask
:36:43. > :36:42.future. If we ppopose doin' something, then we !sk for
:36:43. > :36:42.future. If we ppopose doin' something, then we ask for the
:36:43. > :36:44.something, then we !sk for thd specific legal advice. W`y would 9ou
:36:45. > :36:46.not ask for the legal advice not ask for the legal `dvice
:36:47. > :36:51.anyway? Because you have to bd sure anyway? Because you have to be sure
:36:52. > :36:54.of the legal advice at t`e time$ !nd also we do not comment on the advice
:36:55. > :36:59.also we do not aomment on the a`vice given to us by the aw officeps Mr
:37:00. > :37:04.Blair ended up publishing (is. Dh!t was because there was a `u'e legal
:37:05. > :37:05.dispute. So you have not h!d legal a`vice yet
:37:06. > :37:09.dispute. So you have not h!d legal advice yet that Britain attaciifg
:37:10. > :37:12.Syria would be legal? The leg`l situation is unlikely to be the
:37:13. > :37:17.barrier in this case, let -e put it that way. Within international daw,
:37:18. > :37:23.you can act in the event of extre-e humanitarian distress and eleatave
:37:24. > :37:24.self-defence, humanitarian distress and eleatave
:37:25. > :37:24.salf-defence, so one humanitarian distress and eleatave
:37:25. > :37:28.self-defence, so one can i-agine strong legal justification, btt of
:37:29. > :37:28.course, we will take the legal advice
:37:29. > :37:28.course, we will take the legal a`vice at the
:37:29. > :37:30.course, we will take the legal advice at the time.
:37:31. > :37:35.watching The Sunday Politics. We 3ay goodbye to viewers in Qcotland, w(o
:37:36. > :37:48.Scotland. Coming up hepe i. 20 minutes, The Week A(ead.
:37:49. > :37:51.Coming up on the Sunday Polhtics in the South West:
:37:52. > :37:53.The local view on air strikes over Iraq
:37:54. > :37:57.And, for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by the
:37:58. > :37:59.Labour MP Alison Seabeck, the Lib Dem peer John Burnett
:38:00. > :38:20.The decision to approve air strikes. I think everyone is agreed `mongst
:38:21. > :38:26.the three of you that is thd right way to proceed but there is the
:38:27. > :38:30.remaining question of Syria. Some MPs say Syria should have bden
:38:31. > :38:37.involved in the package deb`ted on Friday and other MPs like the MP who
:38:38. > :38:43.is a former soldier there is that, irrespective of the fact it wasn't,
:38:44. > :38:50.it will be mission creep. John Burnett, you are another former
:38:51. > :38:56.soldier. I think it will. I hope we stop their momentum but there is a
:38:57. > :39:04.larger question, are the policies towards defence... The world is a
:39:05. > :39:07.dangerous place and we have two beef up our defence and spend more on the
:39:08. > :39:12.defence of our country. We have hundreds of thousands of people
:39:13. > :39:18.abroad working in dangerous places like oilfields in Africa who are in
:39:19. > :39:21.constant danger. We have do have the Navy, the Royal Marines and an army
:39:22. > :39:30.and air force that is fully equipped and manned. Do you think it will go
:39:31. > :39:36.in that direction or should it? Richard Drax said there would be
:39:37. > :39:49.mission creep for good reason. It will be a long campaign. We have to
:39:50. > :39:55.see the momentum stopped off ISIL. We have two start to push them back
:39:56. > :40:01.and in doing that you start to be able to win a propaganda war and
:40:02. > :40:07.open a space for political discussion to be had around Syria. I
:40:08. > :40:12.listened very carefully to the debates in the House and thd range
:40:13. > :40:18.of different views. At the loment, we have no legal basis to go into
:40:19. > :40:23.Syria. From my respective, we could only do so if that was in place
:40:24. > :40:27.In terms of defence spending, several critics have said wd are
:40:28. > :40:33.punching above our weight and trying to act as a power but we haven't got
:40:34. > :40:39.the military muscle to do that. We have a strategic review due after
:40:40. > :40:43.the election and at then we need to properly set out and think through
:40:44. > :40:48.what Britain want to do and what should Britain have to do.
:40:49. > :40:53.Therefore, shape our forces to fit our aspirations. At the momdnt, we
:40:54. > :40:58.have six tornadoes going to operate in Iraq and they will undoubtedly do
:40:59. > :41:05.that task professionally and well. But, as I say, what we need to do in
:41:06. > :41:11.the UK has to be sorted out and that is quite right that it should be
:41:12. > :41:19.done at the Security Defencd And Reviews case `` stage. Did that
:41:20. > :41:26.administer get his fingers burnt last year and doesn't want to repeat
:41:27. > :41:33.that again? I think if the case was made to go into Syria... Thdre is
:41:34. > :41:36.powered to have cross`party consensus on issues of war. It is
:41:37. > :41:43.bad to go into an exercise when you don't have cross`party consdnsus
:41:44. > :41:46.with the opposition of board. Dash`mac on board. I don't think it
:41:47. > :41:53.matters that much at this stage because we are part of a broad
:41:54. > :41:58.coalition with Arab states `nd the US involved in air strikes `nd other
:41:59. > :42:02.countries as well as the Frde Syrian Army. Sentence Smack We Can Focus
:42:03. > :42:13.Our Efforts On Iraq. UKIP is likely to being plaxing
:42:14. > :42:26.on the minds of Conservativds more than ever as they gather
:42:27. > :42:28.for their conference in Birlingham. Yesterday, the second Tory LP
:42:29. > :42:31.in a month defected to UKIP. Meanwhile, here in the South West,
:42:32. > :42:34.the Conservatives have lost control of a Devon council ` again,
:42:35. > :42:47.partly due to a defection to UKIP. George Eustice do you think you have
:42:48. > :42:51.any insight to broker any hdaling because of your past experidnce You
:42:52. > :42:59.tried to do that with a refdrendum vote, didn't you? My position is
:43:00. > :43:03.clear. I left UKIP because they are counter`productive to the c`use they
:43:04. > :43:07.claim to believe in. They sdverely undermined the campaign agahnst
:43:08. > :43:10.membership of the rope I saxing we had to leave the euro if we wanted
:43:11. > :43:17.to keep the pound but they were wrong about that `` the EU row.
:43:18. > :43:24.Anyone who wants to leave the euro or who wants to see a reforled euro
:43:25. > :43:26.has two have a Conservative government to have that negotiation
:43:27. > :43:34.and give everyone their say. All that will happen with the action
:43:35. > :43:39.that the two MPs have taken is they undermine the prospects of the
:43:40. > :43:43.Conservative government and if there is no David Cameron there whll be no
:43:44. > :43:48.referendum. All parties are coalitions but is the Conservative
:43:49. > :43:52.party a broad enough church to include people who are very unhappy
:43:53. > :43:57.with the Prime Minister who seems to have conceded a referendum relax in
:43:58. > :44:01.the and who they say is looking at Gerrish eating very little change
:44:02. > :44:08.and doesn't represent a strong strand of opinion within thd party?
:44:09. > :44:11.We did a poll today and 45% of Tory councillors said they would vote to
:44:12. > :44:18.leave Europe and a third wotld like an electoral pact with UKIP. There
:44:19. > :44:22.is an arty `` ideological dhvide in the party, isn't there? Thex will
:44:23. > :44:28.not be a referendum unless we have a conservative majority though all
:44:29. > :44:33.this talk is counter`productive and undermines the case. As well as
:44:34. > :44:37.having the guard `` advantage that it is a bad thing to do, I `lso
:44:38. > :44:43.spent years working for Davhd Cameron and I know his mind. I know
:44:44. > :44:48.he is serious about getting reform in the European Union and hd has my
:44:49. > :44:52.trust and the full backing of the party. He gave the most important
:44:53. > :44:56.speech a year ago that any prime minister has given since thd war on
:44:57. > :45:03.Europe and we should rally behind that and give people a say hn a
:45:04. > :45:10.referendum. Moving away frol Europe, listening to things that Mark
:45:11. > :45:20.reckless has said today, thdy think a lot of UKIP's domestic policies
:45:21. > :45:23.like grammar schools and pl`nning and gay marriage, they think it
:45:24. > :45:30.chimes with them better than the policies espoused by David Cameron
:45:31. > :45:35.and that is a problem, isn't it They have a whole package of
:45:36. > :45:38.policies that are more appe`ling? They have picked up support from
:45:39. > :45:44.people who are disillusioned with politics in general. You will find
:45:45. > :45:49.many people who have voted Lib Dem traditionally... But they only said
:45:50. > :45:54.this week that most of their policies are the same as thd
:45:55. > :45:57.Conservatives for pop but UKIP are pulling their support from `cross
:45:58. > :46:02.the political spectrum. I think it is fair to say disproportionately
:46:03. > :46:08.from the Conservatives but they are getting support from the Lib Dems
:46:09. > :46:14.and Labour 's voters as well. What we have to do is say to people that
:46:15. > :46:20.we have a record, we've sorted out the deficit and got growth hn the
:46:21. > :46:24.economy and we have a plan going forward. Part of that is to have a
:46:25. > :46:29.referendum on Europe and if you want that you have to vote conservative.
:46:30. > :46:35.Listening to George, wouldn't it be a shattering blow to that argument
:46:36. > :46:41.if Ed Miliband said, you can have a referendum under us as well? That is
:46:42. > :46:48.interesting, isn't it. No, what we are looking at is Tories wanting to
:46:49. > :46:52.link with UKIP and that says a lot about where UKIP are coming from. We
:46:53. > :47:00.have seen a proposed cuts to income tax which means money going to
:47:01. > :47:07.millionaires that previouslx would have funded deprived communhties and
:47:08. > :47:09.infrastructure. This is abott getting negotiations done properly
:47:10. > :47:15.and fully and that is the w`y we have to go first was. I want a
:47:16. > :47:24.comment from the Eurosceptic wing of the Lib Dems. Thank you. I opposed
:47:25. > :47:31.the euro and he was the secretary of our "don't join the euro" group We
:47:32. > :47:35.want Devo Max for the United Kingdom, for want of a bettdr
:47:36. > :47:41.expression at, and I want to see that successfully achieved. But I
:47:42. > :47:44.want us to stay, if possibld, in the European Union.
:47:45. > :47:48.Both the Prime Minister and the Labour Minister had
:47:49. > :47:50.a lot to say about climate change and green energy this week.
:47:51. > :47:53.In his conference speech, Ed Miliband pledged to remove all
:47:54. > :47:55.carbon from electricity gendration by 2030 and promised a big dxpansion
:47:56. > :47:57.in renewable energy. I asked him
:47:58. > :47:59.whether this meant restoring subsidies cut by the coalithon
:48:00. > :48:04.and removing its restrictions and wind turbines and solar parks.
:48:05. > :48:06.We will look at those issues in pursuit of our goal
:48:07. > :48:10.of becoming the world leader in green technology and services.
:48:11. > :48:13.We can create one million ndw jobs in green technology and part of it,
:48:14. > :48:20.by the way, is the stabilitx of clarity about the aims.
:48:21. > :48:23.Meanwhile, ahead of his conference. UKIP leader Nigel Farage made it
:48:24. > :48:24.clear the wind industry would be in serious trouble under a TKIP
:48:25. > :48:34.government. Wind turbines are codswallop. There
:48:35. > :48:40.are ugly and they don't work and their unreliable. They have put up
:48:41. > :48:46.domestic electricity prices. I would not continue with that subshdy which
:48:47. > :48:51.would mean every single one of them would the unviable.
:48:52. > :48:55.A bold objective from Ed Miliband. Looking at onshore wind and solar
:48:56. > :49:00.parks they are incredibly controversial. It would be taking
:49:01. > :49:05.your life in your hands in some parts of the south`west, arguably,
:49:06. > :49:11.if you looked at removing some these restrictions. He is talking about
:49:12. > :49:15.eight terrific game and we need to go for it if we are talking about
:49:16. > :49:20.tackling global warming. In this region we have expertise and
:49:21. > :49:23.knowledge in wave or tied and the engineers to back it up. He is
:49:24. > :49:30.right, there are jobs for the south`west in what Labour is
:49:31. > :49:36.proposing. I hear the comments from UKIP. It is a piecemeal and
:49:37. > :49:40.fragmented statement rather than strategy. I think that is the
:49:41. > :49:47.problem we have. We need a strategy for tackling lime it change and Ed
:49:48. > :49:53.has set us on the task. The Lib Dems are much keener on things lhke wind
:49:54. > :50:00.energy than the Conservativds. Are you or are you on the side of the
:50:01. > :50:09.wind...? You have to be candid and I have opposed a number of onshore
:50:10. > :50:14.wind farms because you can't store electricity. Whenever you drive past
:50:15. > :50:18.these things they don't seel to be working half the time. But @lison is
:50:19. > :50:26.right in that we need a str`tegy. We've got one. It's important that
:50:27. > :50:34.we have a real mix of energx, including nuclear. Decisions were
:50:35. > :50:38.made and that was neglected a bit. We have made difficult decisions and
:50:39. > :50:43.we are ploughing in the mondy to do it.
:50:44. > :50:47.George, there was a mention about confidence stability in the
:50:48. > :50:54.industry. There was a dig whnd farm planned in, but the confidence ``
:50:55. > :50:56.company said it didn't have confidence to proceed. Have you
:50:57. > :51:02.pulled the rug under a lot of these things? No, we have reduced
:51:03. > :51:08.subsidies as the cost of reducing electricity reduces as well.
:51:09. > :51:12.Therefore, a lot of developdrs were looking into extortionate profits as
:51:13. > :51:18.a result of the subsidy not changing to reflect their costs that is what
:51:19. > :51:22.we put in place. I have a concern as farming Minister, particularly
:51:23. > :51:27.around solar farms, is that we are losing in many parts of Cornwall
:51:28. > :51:30.important land needed for agricultural production. Thdre are
:51:31. > :51:36.many dimensional is to this bait. There is a role for renewable energy
:51:37. > :51:40.but we are approaching saturation point for wind energy. You have to
:51:41. > :51:43.take into account the loss of agricultural land the cut food
:51:44. > :51:51.security is important to in the coming decade. Quickly, the reality
:51:52. > :52:00.is a lot of people on the rhght wing of your party agree 100% with UKIP,
:52:01. > :52:06.don't they? I've just set ott what our policy is. We've been clear that
:52:07. > :52:10.we've issued new guidance to strengthen the role of local
:52:11. > :52:13.communities when it comes to wind and solar and we are reducing
:52:14. > :52:19.subsidies because there is ` limit to how much wind and solar power we
:52:20. > :52:24.can have. There is huge potdntial for wave power in Devon ankle and
:52:25. > :52:28.the more you give up the grhd forcing `` things like solar power
:52:29. > :52:29.the more you undermine the tech `` potential for more promising
:52:30. > :52:33.technologies. A Devon woman needed hospit`l
:52:34. > :52:36.treatment and has been left in pain after being run over by a mobility
:52:37. > :52:39.scooter at an Exeter cafe. She says people should have to pass
:52:40. > :52:42.a compulsory driving test Devon and Cornwall Police s`y 1
:52:43. > :52:45.collisions involving motor scooters were reported to them last xear
:52:46. > :52:55.one resulting in a fatality. Isgard Bright`Roberts was enjoying
:52:56. > :52:57.coffee with friends and her two children
:52:58. > :53:01.when an elderly men on a mobility scooter ploughed into her t`ble
:53:02. > :53:05.Everything was going fine and then suddenly
:53:06. > :53:08.from nowhere I was on the floor I was underneath
:53:09. > :53:12.the mobility scooter. It was running over me.
:53:13. > :53:18.Luckily, my friends managed to get the children out of the way
:53:19. > :53:21.I wasn't holding my baby. She required hospital treatlent
:53:22. > :53:25.for a damaged back and thred weeks on is taking painkillers.
:53:26. > :53:29.Considering the vehicle can this reach up to eight miles an hour
:53:30. > :53:34.there needs to be something done before someone is badly injtred
:53:35. > :53:41.My main concern at the time was that he could have hit my childrdn.
:53:42. > :53:45.He could have injured himself. The river is just over here.
:53:46. > :53:48.Had he been pointing the other way, he could have gone straight
:53:49. > :53:56.into the river. Devon and Cornwall police don't keep
:53:57. > :54:02.records of incidents on pavements but figures for road
:54:03. > :54:05.accidents involving mobilitx scooters show a slight incrdase
:54:06. > :54:07.in reported incidents over the past three years with last year's figures
:54:08. > :54:09.showing one fatality. Exeter Shop Mobility providds
:54:10. > :54:11.scooters to rent and they insist everyone receives
:54:12. > :54:14.training before taking to the pavement and say there should
:54:15. > :54:17.be regulation to stop peopld taking to the streets without training
:54:18. > :54:23.There is a case for training on scooter.
:54:24. > :54:27.It is a large thing of steel plastic and it can do a lot of damage.
:54:28. > :54:32.There is no one to police them and no one to do any compulsory
:54:33. > :54:34.training. Users themselves agree.
:54:35. > :54:39.Some of them have never seen one before.
:54:40. > :54:43.They haven't a clue what they're doing.
:54:44. > :54:49.They're very dangerous. You've got to be in control of them.
:54:50. > :54:53.Although the overall number of reported incidents remains low,
:54:54. > :54:56.the reality is few people are going to ring the police because they ve
:54:57. > :54:59.had a bump with a mobility scooter. For people like Gladys,
:55:00. > :55:02.she says the public percepthon of them being a menace could
:55:03. > :55:05.backfire on people like her who see them as a vital lifeline.
:55:06. > :55:07.She says regulation is important. For what they are for, for
:55:08. > :55:09.disabilities, they are a godsend. You can't go out without ond.
:55:10. > :55:27.You definitely need it. This is an issue you've raised in
:55:28. > :55:32.the past. Yes and we do need to take some action.
:55:33. > :55:39.I received a dissertation from a student at Loughborough University
:55:40. > :55:45.and his findings reinforce what we saw, that people are not tr`ined,
:55:46. > :55:52.50% of them had no idea of laws or regulations applying to mobhlity
:55:53. > :55:57.scooters. People misuse thel. We need some action in this arda as we
:55:58. > :56:03.are seeing more incidents lhke the ones reported in Exeter. Thd police
:56:04. > :56:06.are now recording incidents with motor vehicles but other thhngs
:56:07. > :56:15.happen on the pavement that aren't reported. I would like to sde
:56:16. > :56:19.training and some organisathons do. They are cleared the people who have
:56:20. > :56:23.training are safer on our p`vements and roads full top do you think
:56:24. > :56:32.there is an argument, John, for control of these devices?
:56:33. > :56:37.We have to remember that, for some, they are a lifeline and we don't
:56:38. > :56:42.want to curb use. But perhaps something could be looked at. We
:56:43. > :56:51.have disabled car parking. Do we need to have a genuine need to use
:56:52. > :56:56.but we do not want to curb people 's abilities to use these machhnes
:56:57. > :57:01.because they are a lifeline and the difference between living and
:57:02. > :57:05.existing. There was a man whth a red flag walking in front of motor
:57:06. > :57:11.vehicles in the past becausd they travelled at four miles an hour We
:57:12. > :57:14.soon came to a view that regulation was needed for motor vehiclds and we
:57:15. > :57:19.need to have training around mobility scooters.
:57:20. > :57:24.George, do you think that would be nanny state is `` state? I would be
:57:25. > :57:31.reluctant for compulsory tests because it helps people get out and
:57:32. > :57:35.about and lead an inclusive life. Alison said training rather than
:57:36. > :57:40.testing. I do think you need legislation but I think you need
:57:41. > :57:42.suppliers and manufacturers to come to gather and come up with `
:57:43. > :57:48.voluntary code of conduct that requires retailers to give training,
:57:49. > :57:52.like the gentleman `` gentldman in your package already does. Time now
:57:53. > :58:03.for a round`up in 60 seconds. Shocked and devastated `
:58:04. > :58:05.the reaction from the Mayor of Chard at the news that Dairy Crest is
:58:06. > :58:10.closing its creamery with the loss of 60 jobs.
:58:11. > :58:14.Dairy Crest or its predecessors were here and able to employ a lot
:58:15. > :58:17.of people in the town. The Chief Constable of Devon
:58:18. > :58:20.and Cornwall police says he will accept only the highest standard
:58:21. > :58:24.of behaviour from officers after a detective sergeant was
:58:25. > :58:28.dismissed for gross miscondtct. An honest mistake will be
:58:29. > :58:32.treated honest and fairly. Anything dishonest or malichous ..
:58:33. > :58:36.you probably do not have a future in the organisation.
:58:37. > :58:41.Renewed calls for a transit site for travellers after a serids of
:58:42. > :58:44.illegal camps in Cornish carparks. It's causing
:58:45. > :58:49.a problem with cars are pilhng up. Someone could get injured.
:58:50. > :58:53.And a pony charity has causdd uproar by suggesting one of the best ways
:58:54. > :59:06.of protecting Dartmoor ponids is to sell them for human consumption
:59:07. > :59:13.One quick thought from the farming Minister on the idea of eathng
:59:14. > :59:21.Dartmoor ponies to conserve the breed. I wouldn't want to e`t horse
:59:22. > :59:24.meat. Having gone through the row of horse meat contamination last year I
:59:25. > :59:29.don't want to encourage it. It's not illegal and some countries do
:59:30. > :59:32.consume it but we have wonddrful Dartmoor ponies and I hope they will
:59:33. > :59:40.continue. A farmer as well as a lawyer and
:59:41. > :59:47.ex`soldier. Ex`Royal Marine. Very different, Martin! I think of those
:59:48. > :59:53.words from Shakespeare, "a horse, a horse. My kingdom for a horse". They
:59:54. > :59:58.eat it on the continent. We export horse meat for human consumption but
:59:59. > :00:03.the trouble is the market isn't good at the moment. We have two have
:00:04. > :00:08.horses on Dartmoor as they're part of the ecology of them all. Whether
:00:09. > :00:13.you like the idea yourself, it is and I commend that it could be an
:00:14. > :00:19.effect of conservation. It hs a very British thing to dislike eating
:00:20. > :00:23.horse meat but we have to look at how to preserve the breed. H've
:00:24. > :00:29.heard what the charity had said It is quite difficult, though, to say
:00:30. > :00:34.it is the way to do it. I would like to look at other means first.
:00:35. > :00:36.Banks to George in London and Alison and John here in the studio. We will
:00:37. > :00:40.take our respective trains to My thanks to you both. Andrew, back
:00:41. > :01:01.to you. Here we are back in Birmingham with
:01:02. > :01:06.the Conservatives. The Tories thought all they had to do was come
:01:07. > :01:12.here, have a rally, a jamboree, and off they go to the races, or in
:01:13. > :01:18.their case the general election Two races later it hasn't quite worked
:01:19. > :01:23.out like that. Let's look at the state of this conference as it gets
:01:24. > :01:29.under way. On our panel we are joined by David Davis. You wrote an
:01:30. > :01:34.article in the Mail on Sunday this morning which was an Exocet at the
:01:35. > :01:41.heart of David Cameron's modernising strategy. It was designed to act as
:01:42. > :01:46.a lever. It was designed to cause trouble. No, we are in the running
:01:47. > :01:51.for the next general election. One of the characteristics of having a
:01:52. > :01:56.five year fixed term Parliaments is that the last year is about
:01:57. > :02:02.campaigning. It is important we beat Miliband, he would be a disastrous
:02:03. > :02:09.Prime Minister. You think the whole modernising strategy was a wrong
:02:10. > :02:25.turn, that is what the article said. Yes. Has that opened the door to
:02:26. > :02:34.UKIP? It has left a lot of people disillusioned with politics. What do
:02:35. > :02:53.you do to get it right? Who was listening to you?
:02:54. > :03:12.Frankly we need to take a more robust series of policies. How many
:03:13. > :03:21.more UKIP defections will there be? I do not think there will be any
:03:22. > :03:24.more. I would be very surprised I know Nigel Farage has a brilliant
:03:25. > :03:30.sense of timing, but I do not think he has got the resources to do that,
:03:31. > :03:34.namely, another Tory MP. So it could be another Labour one, maybe? I
:03:35. > :03:42.think an awful lot will hinge on what happens in Rochester. Because
:03:43. > :03:46.that is not a slam dunk. Clack and unfortunately looks like it will be
:03:47. > :03:59.a walkover for them. But Rochester is a different scene. And so, there
:04:00. > :04:04.could be a kind of Newark situation. When I campaigned in Newark, two
:04:05. > :04:08.labour families I spoke to said they would vote Tory to keep UKIP out.
:04:09. > :04:16.How bad was the Labour conference last week? One politician said after
:04:17. > :04:19.he had a really bad performance that his television performance was
:04:20. > :04:24.suboptimal. I think that would be a good way of describing Ed
:04:25. > :04:28.Miliband's speech. The problem for Ed Miliband in memorising speeches
:04:29. > :04:31.is that we are not auditioning for a new lines Olivier, we're rehearsing
:04:32. > :04:36.for Prime Minister. He failed the Laurence Olivier test, and therefore
:04:37. > :04:39.failed the Prime Minister test. I think the real problem for him was
:04:40. > :04:43.forgetting to mention the deficit. He spoke from the heart about issues
:04:44. > :04:49.which she really cares about, the NHS, the rupture between wages and
:04:50. > :04:53.inflation, and forgot the deficit. Those issues are important, but if
:04:54. > :04:56.you are not addressing things like the deficit, then people are really
:04:57. > :05:02.not going to be listening to your messages on the areas that matter.
:05:03. > :05:08.Was it bad? Yes, suboptimal, I am afraid. I hope that this ends the
:05:09. > :05:11.nonsense of leaders wasting their time learning speeches off by
:05:12. > :05:17.heart. You could learn a Shakespeare play in the time it takes to learn
:05:18. > :05:20.70 minutes of a leader's speech I think we should just go back to
:05:21. > :05:25.sensible reading what you have written. You can then alter it just
:05:26. > :05:28.beforehand. A lot of things were changing, which is not surprising,
:05:29. > :05:33.but he did not have time to learn it. It is a silly gimmick, it worked
:05:34. > :05:37.once or twice, but that is enough for that. Despite some of the
:05:38. > :05:40.derision of Mr Miliband, the Tories are flat-lining in the sun decks,
:05:41. > :05:46.they have been there almost since the disastrous budget, the
:05:47. > :05:52.omnishambles, of 2012, Labour is still several points ahead, nothing
:05:53. > :05:56.seems to change? And David Cameron is now the leader in trouble. It is
:05:57. > :06:04.almost as if a week is a long time in politics. I thought the Labour
:06:05. > :06:10.and friends was Saab -- sub-suboptimal. It was so parochial.
:06:11. > :06:13.You could've watched the top speeches without knowing that the
:06:14. > :06:18.borders of Ukraine, and Iraq and Syria were in question. I hope,
:06:19. > :06:22.because of Friday's discussion in Parliament, that this conference
:06:23. > :06:26.will raise its sights a bit, and we will have something in Cameron's
:06:27. > :06:30.speech, possibly that of George Osborne as well, which is a bit more
:06:31. > :06:35.global. People hoped UKIP had gone away during the summer, people at
:06:36. > :06:43.this conference, I mean, but it is back with a bang. They are still up
:06:44. > :06:48.at 15% in the polls, the Tories languishing on 32 - what is going to
:06:49. > :06:55.change? UKIP won 3% of the last election, I always thought they
:06:56. > :07:00.would get about 6%. If, by the turn of the year, they are still in
:07:01. > :07:04.double digits, I think at that point you can begin to wake of his
:07:05. > :07:09.party's chances of winning. I have had three people say to me so far,
:07:10. > :07:13.come election day, it will be fine, people will sober up and so on. It
:07:14. > :07:18.will be all right on the night is not a very good strategy, frankly.
:07:19. > :07:24.When they get past 5%, I start to bite into our 3-way marginal seats,
:07:25. > :07:28.with liberals, Labour and Tories, and we have got about 60 of those in
:07:29. > :07:33.the Midlands and the north, so it really is quite serious. And if I
:07:34. > :07:39.may steal one of David's lines, when you were interviewing Mark Reckless
:07:40. > :07:42.this morning, and was not talking about the EU referendum, he was
:07:43. > :07:45.talking about how he felt he had broken his pledges to the electorate
:07:46. > :07:49.because the Conservatives he said had failed on immigration and on the
:07:50. > :07:53.deficit, and those sort of bread-and-butter issues could be
:07:54. > :07:57.really potent on the doorstep, which means the Tories have got to run the
:07:58. > :08:01.kind of campaign they ran in Newark, which is a real centre ground,
:08:02. > :08:04.Reddan but a campaign, in which they would hope to get Liberal Democrat
:08:05. > :08:09.and Labour voters out to vote tactically against UKIP. I think
:08:10. > :08:15.today we have seen Cameron been pushed to the right. He has had to
:08:16. > :08:18.say, yes, I would leave Europe, which he has never said before. It
:08:19. > :08:24.is a huge stepping stone, a big difference. It takes the Tory party
:08:25. > :08:30.somewhere else. May be get them a lot of votes. But it has not so far.
:08:31. > :08:35.But I think it loses a lot of people. The industry organisations,
:08:36. > :08:40.for example. The prospect of going out of Europe, but is quite a fight
:08:41. > :08:48.for them. Is it not the lesson that you can out UKIP UKIP? Well, you do
:08:49. > :09:00.not need to, really. I agree, last week was sub-sub-suboptimal. Hold
:09:01. > :09:07.on, that is enough subs! I would not be crowing too much! But what I was
:09:08. > :09:11.going to say, he left out something incredibly important, the deficit.
:09:12. > :09:17.But how many people outside the M25 are thinking about the deficit? One
:09:18. > :09:21.problem we face with Miliband is, he is good at politics and bad at
:09:22. > :09:24.economics, in a way. He comes up with bonkers policies which people
:09:25. > :09:30.love, price-fixing, things like that. Our problem will be about
:09:31. > :09:34.relevance on the doorstep. I do not think at the end of the day it will
:09:35. > :09:38.be about Europe. But was there not a moment of danger for you at the
:09:39. > :09:40.conference, that one area where Miliband is potentially vulnerable
:09:41. > :09:46.is not having credible team with business. Who turned up at the
:09:47. > :09:51.Labour conference, the head of Airbus, saying, we have got to stay
:09:52. > :09:56.in the European Union? The danger is that Europe allows the Labour Party
:09:57. > :10:02.to gain credibility with business. There is some truth in that. But we
:10:03. > :10:05.are in effectively the home straight, the last six months, and
:10:06. > :10:10.people will be fussing about prices and jobs. Very parochial. They will
:10:11. > :10:15.not be saying, what does the CBI think about this? It is, what is
:10:16. > :10:23.happening to me, in my town, in my factory, in my office. That is where
:10:24. > :10:29.the fight will be. Is it not the truth that if UKIP stays anywhere
:10:30. > :10:33.near around this level of support, it is impossible for the Tories to
:10:34. > :10:37.win an overall majority? I would say, if it is this level of support,
:10:38. > :10:42.it is impossible for the Tories to finish as the biggest party, even in
:10:43. > :10:47.a hung Parliament. The Tories keep trying to win back UKIP voters with
:10:48. > :10:51.cold logic - witches it makes Ed Miliband becoming prime minister
:10:52. > :10:55.more likely. UKIP is basically a vessel phenomenon, coming from the
:10:56. > :10:59.gut, and David Cameron has never found the emotional pitch in his
:11:00. > :11:03.rhetoric to meet that. I wonder whether we will see that moron
:11:04. > :11:16.Wednesday. It is just not him. I hope we do. -- more on Wednesday. I
:11:17. > :11:19.hope you're right that we do actually engage on emotion. So far
:11:20. > :11:24.with UKIP, our policy has been to insult them. It does not work. I
:11:25. > :11:29.know that from my constituency. We have to say to them, there is a
:11:30. > :11:32.wider Tory family, we understand you are patria, we understand you are
:11:33. > :11:37.worried about your family, and we do the same. What does it tell us about
:11:38. > :11:40.the state of the Tories, seven months from the election, the
:11:41. > :11:43.economy is going well, they are not that far behind Labour, and yet
:11:44. > :11:48.there is all sorts of leadership speculation? It is extraordinary.
:11:49. > :11:57.They are doing well, they are in with a shout. It depends. UKIP has
:11:58. > :12:04.to be kept below 9% of. -- below 9%. I think David Cameron is one of
:12:05. > :12:09.the few who speaks human, actually talks quite well to people and does
:12:10. > :12:14.not look like a swivel-eyed loons. Whereas a lot of people behind him
:12:15. > :12:18.do. You look at Duncan Smith and Eric Pickles, they are all kind of
:12:19. > :12:27.driven, ideological men, with very right-wing policies. And nice
:12:28. > :12:30.people! Don't hold back! He is not the Addams family, he is basically
:12:31. > :12:36.quite human. I think a lot of people do not realise how ideological he is
:12:37. > :12:40.himself and how well he has led his party in the direction they all want
:12:41. > :12:43.to go. You go on about him being this metropolitan moderniser, I do
:12:44. > :12:47.not think that is what he is, really. It may not be visible from
:12:48. > :12:53.the guardian offices in the metropolis! Everybody where you are,
:12:54. > :12:58.Polly, is a metropolitan moderniser. And where you are, too. That is the
:12:59. > :13:02.nature of living in London. The trouble is, when these people get
:13:03. > :13:06.into Westminster, they are part of Westminster, too. If you could only
:13:07. > :13:11.win by being an outsider, the moment you get in, you are done for. All
:13:12. > :13:20.teeing up nicely for Boris Johnson to be the next leader? I do not
:13:21. > :13:24.think so! The point of my Exocet, or lever, this morning, is that I think
:13:25. > :13:29.this is winnable. If we are good Tories for the next six months, we
:13:30. > :13:36.can do this. It is by denying ground to UKIP, not giving in to them, not
:13:37. > :13:40.buckling. Denying ground. Thank you to our panel. They did all right
:13:41. > :13:44.today, but the normal. That is your lot for today. I am back tomorrow.
:13:45. > :13:49.We will have live coverage of George Osborne's speech to the conference.
:13:50. > :13:52.I am back next week in Glasgow for The Sunday Politics at the Labour
:13:53. > :13:56.conference. How could you miss that? Remember, if it is Sunday it
:13:57. > :14:25.is The Sunday Politics. Bye-bye of statutory press regulation in
:14:26. > :14:40.sponge cake may be a bridge too far. I think I've overdone it
:14:41. > :14:43.with the pistachios and somehow, the custard's split,
:14:44. > :14:46.but it's too late! of statutory press regulation in
:14:47. > :14:57.sponge cake may be a bridge too far.