:00:36. > :00:39.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:40. > :00:41.Theresa May says she wants to help people who are
:00:42. > :00:44."just about managing" - so should she reverse
:00:45. > :00:47.George Osborne's cuts to benefits that are supposed to help people
:00:48. > :00:54.Prominent London Imam Shakeel Begg is an extremist speaker,
:00:55. > :00:57.says the High Court, after claims made on this programme.
:00:58. > :01:02.So why is Mr Begg still being allowed to advise the Police?
:01:03. > :01:07.Hillary Clinton fights back over the FBI's renewed investigation
:01:08. > :01:10.into her use of a private email server - is this the boost
:01:11. > :01:23.Donald Trump needed to reignite his chances of winning the White House?
:01:24. > :01:25.Now it is just a question of building that runway with the
:01:26. > :01:32.political problems that lie ahead. And haunting the studio
:01:33. > :01:34.on this Halloween weekend, the most terrifying political
:01:35. > :01:36.panel in the business - Tim 'Ghost' Shipman,
:01:37. > :01:39.'Eerie' Isabel Oakeshott and First this morning, two
:01:40. > :01:48.new models of car to be built, securing 7,000 jobs at the car plant
:01:49. > :01:51.in Sunderland and a further 28, 00 The news from Nissan on Thursday
:01:52. > :01:57.was seized on by Leave campaigners as evidence that the British
:01:58. > :02:00.economy is in rude health This morning, the Business
:02:01. > :02:04.Secretary, Greg Clark, was asked what assurances were given
:02:05. > :02:07.to the Japanese firm's bosses Well, it's in no-one's the interest
:02:08. > :02:14.for there to be tariff barriers to the continent
:02:15. > :02:19.and vice versa. So, what I said is that our
:02:20. > :02:22.objective would be to ensure that we have continued access to the markets
:02:23. > :02:28.in Europe and vice versa, without tariffs and without
:02:29. > :02:31.bureaucratic impediments. That is how we will approach
:02:32. > :02:35.those negotiations. We're joined now from Newcastle
:02:36. > :02:48.by the Shadow Business Welcome to the programme. Labour has
:02:49. > :02:53.been a bit sceptical about this Nissan decision. Can we begin by
:02:54. > :02:58.making it clear just what a great achievement this is, above all for
:02:59. > :03:03.the workers of Sunderland who have some of the highest productivity in
:03:04. > :03:07.the world, have never been on strike for 30 years, and produce cars of
:03:08. > :03:13.incredible quality. This is their victory, isn't it? Andrew, you are
:03:14. > :03:16.absolutely right. The Nissan plant in Sunderland is among the most
:03:17. > :03:21.productive in the world. The workers of Nissan are amongst the most
:03:22. > :03:28.productive as well. And it's really a victory for them and for the trade
:03:29. > :03:30.unions and the business organisations, and everybody who
:03:31. > :03:36.campaigned to make sure that the government couldn't ignore their
:03:37. > :03:41.future. It's our future. I'm the MP for Newcastle. It makes a huge
:03:42. > :03:45.difference to the region. We are a region that still likes to make
:03:46. > :03:50.things that work. It is a huge part of our advanced manufacturing
:03:51. > :03:55.sector. So it's really something we welcome as well as the job security.
:03:56. > :04:00.I'm glad we have got that on the record from the Labour shadow
:04:01. > :04:03.business secretary. But your Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, claims
:04:04. > :04:09.the government is ignoring manufacturers and cares only about a
:04:10. > :04:12.small banking elite. In what way is safeguarding 30,000 industrial jobs
:04:13. > :04:17.in the North safeguarding a financial elite? As I said, we're
:04:18. > :04:21.really pleased that the campaigning by trade unions and the workforce,
:04:22. > :04:25.and business organisations, meant the government felt they couldn t
:04:26. > :04:29.ignore Nissan workers. Let's also be clear that we want that kind of job
:04:30. > :04:34.security for all of those working in manufacturing and in other sectors
:04:35. > :04:39.as well. And sweetheart deals for one company, no matter how important
:04:40. > :04:44.they are, that does not an industrial strategy make. Why'd you
:04:45. > :04:50.say it is a sweetheart deal? Greg Clark told the BBC this morning that
:04:51. > :04:54.what was assured to Nissan is an assurance he gives to the whole
:04:55. > :05:00.industrial sector? I was really pleased to see Greg Clark felt he
:05:01. > :05:05.had to say something, even though it's sad that we having our
:05:06. > :05:08.industrial strategy, you like, or our approach to Brexit delivered
:05:09. > :05:13.piecemeal to the media rather than to the British people and Nissan,
:05:14. > :05:17.actually. But he want published the letter. He said he has told us what
:05:18. > :05:21.is in the letter and that reassurances given on training, on
:05:22. > :05:26.science and on supporting the supply chain for the automated sector. You
:05:27. > :05:31.must be in favour all -- of all of that? We are in favour of an
:05:32. > :05:40.industrial strategy. Greg Clark unlike Sajid Javid, cannot say
:05:41. > :05:45.industrial strategy. I'm still puzzling to find out what it is you
:05:46. > :05:49.disagree with. Let me put the question. You said the assurances he
:05:50. > :05:54.has given to Nissan are available to the car manufacturing sector in
:05:55. > :06:00.general and indeed to industry in general. What is your problem with
:06:01. > :06:04.that? Two things. Let him publish the letter so we can see that, let
:06:05. > :06:10.him have the transparency he's pretending to offer. But also, we
:06:11. > :06:17.need an industrial strategy that values -- that is values based and
:06:18. > :06:24.joined. He talked about electric cars and supporting green cars. That
:06:25. > :06:28.was in regard to Nissan. At the same time the government has slashed
:06:29. > :06:32.support for other areas of green technology. So what is it? That is
:06:33. > :06:38.not to do with the Nissan deal. Labour implied at some stage there
:06:39. > :06:42.was some financial inducement, some secret bribes, that doesn't seem to
:06:43. > :06:47.be the case. You are not claiming that any more -- any more. Then you
:06:48. > :06:51.claimed it was a sweetheart deal for one company. That turns out not to
:06:52. > :06:58.be the case. What criticism are you left with on this Nissan deal? I
:06:59. > :07:05.would be really surprised if all that Nissan got was the reassurances
:07:06. > :07:10.that Greg Clark is shared with us. He didn't answer the question of
:07:11. > :07:13.what happens if we can't get continued tariff free access to the
:07:14. > :07:18.single market, if we are not within the single market or the Customs
:07:19. > :07:23.Union. Do you really think a negotiator like Nissan, who are very
:07:24. > :07:25.good at negotiating, they would have excepted making this significant
:07:26. > :07:31.investment without some further reassurances? Do you think there is
:07:32. > :07:36.some kind of financial bride and if so what is the evidence? I would
:07:37. > :07:41.like to see the letter published and I would also like to understand what
:07:42. > :07:46.would happen... There are 27 countries which need to agree with
:07:47. > :07:50.the deal we have from Brexit. What will Nissan, how will Nissan remain
:07:51. > :07:56.competitive? How will the automotive industry remain competitive? Greg
:07:57. > :08:00.Clark says he reassured them on that. But how will that be so if we
:08:01. > :08:09.do not get access? We haven't heard anything about that. He talks about
:08:10. > :08:13.reassurances given to Nissan. We need to make -- to know where we're
:08:14. > :08:16.going to make sure Brexit is in the interest of all workers, not only
:08:17. > :08:23.those who work for a Nissan and not only those who can get the attention
:08:24. > :08:26.of Greg Clark. He assured Nissan that Britain would remain a
:08:27. > :08:31.competitive place to do business. That was the main assurance he gave
:08:32. > :08:36.them. He would help with skills and infrastructure and all the rest
:08:37. > :08:39.Since you are -- intend to repeal the trade union laws that have made
:08:40. > :08:43.strikes in Britain largely a thing of the past, and you plan to raise
:08:44. > :08:48.corporation tax, you couldn't give Nissan the same assurance, could
:08:49. > :08:53.you? We could absolutely give Nissan the assurance that we will be, our
:08:54. > :08:57.vision of the future of the UK, is based on having a strong
:08:58. > :09:07.manufacturing sector. Repealing trade union laws? As we have seen at
:09:08. > :09:15.Nissan, the industrial sector is dependent on having highly trained,
:09:16. > :09:20.well skilled workers. -- highly skilled, well-trained. You don't
:09:21. > :09:24.have that by getting -- having an aggressive policy and trade union
:09:25. > :09:28.laws or by slashing corporation tax and not supporting manufacturing
:09:29. > :09:31.investment. Remember, the last government took away the
:09:32. > :09:36.Manufacturing allowances which supported Manufacturing and slashed
:09:37. > :09:40.corporation tax. That is their solution. It is a low tax, low skill
:09:41. > :09:44.economy they want. Thank you. Sorry I had to rush you.
:09:45. > :09:55.I'm grateful for you joining us I'm still struggling to see what is
:09:56. > :09:59.left of Labour's criticism? Yeah, except for this. This was a valid
:10:00. > :10:03.point she just made. What we know for sure is that Greg Clark could
:10:04. > :10:09.say to Nissan, my aim is to get tariff free deal. There is no way he
:10:10. > :10:13.could guarantee that. None of us know that. I don't think that was
:10:14. > :10:20.enough. I think clearly there was a more detailed package involving
:10:21. > :10:24.training and other things. He has acknowledged this, albeit we do not
:10:25. > :10:27.know the precise mechanism. What I think is interesting about this is
:10:28. > :10:31.if you reverse what happened this week, at a time when the government
:10:32. > :10:36.says Britain is open for business and it is going to have an
:10:37. > :10:40.industrial strategy, so far it is a bit vaguely defined. Nissan hadn't
:10:41. > :10:43.made this commitment. Imagine what would have happened? It is an
:10:44. > :10:50.impossible scenario. The government seems to me was obliged to make sure
:10:51. > :10:53.this didn't happen. Let's not forget Nissan has invested hundreds of
:10:54. > :10:58.millions in the north-east. It has been a huge success story. When I
:10:59. > :11:02.spoke to workers from Nissan, they were so proud because they went to
:11:03. > :11:06.Japan to teach the Japanese had to be more productive. The idea that
:11:07. > :11:10.Nissan was just going to walk away from this given its track record,
:11:11. > :11:16.its importance, wasn't really credible. The government had some
:11:17. > :11:20.bargaining chips. Absolutely, of course they weren't going to walk
:11:21. > :11:24.away. The majority of people in the area in which Nissan is braced -
:11:25. > :11:29.based, voted for Brexit. Nissan knows it is in a powerful position
:11:30. > :11:31.because it is an emotive sector Clearly the government didn't want
:11:32. > :11:38.to have some big showdown. I honestly don't think this is a
:11:39. > :11:41.smoking gun. The Labour Shadow minister really struggled to
:11:42. > :11:44.articulate what exactly she thinks the government is hiding. I think
:11:45. > :11:49.the reassurances were given were pretty anodyne, really. They were
:11:50. > :11:52.anodyne and general. And what Greg Clark was setting out was an
:11:53. > :11:56.objective and he made the right noises, and Nissan exercised its
:11:57. > :12:02.right to sabre rattle. It does have a history of doing that. The one
:12:03. > :12:06.thing that would now be clear given Greg Clark's performance this
:12:07. > :12:08.morning on the BBC, is that if we were to discover some kind of
:12:09. > :12:13.financial incentive directly linked to this investment, not more for
:12:14. > :12:19.skills or infrastructure, that is fine, but some direct financial
:12:20. > :12:21.investment, compensation for tariffs, which would be illegal
:12:22. > :12:27.under World Trade Organisation rules, what you might call a
:12:28. > :12:31.financial bride, the sect -- the business Secretary's position would
:12:32. > :12:34.be untenable? He would be in a very difficult position indeed. Just
:12:35. > :12:38.released the letter. There is nothing to hide. Put it out there.
:12:39. > :12:43.The most revealing thing is that people are getting wildly excited
:12:44. > :12:47.about the fact Greg Clark announced Britain's negotiating position would
:12:48. > :12:51.be that we would like tariff free trade with Europe. This is regarded
:12:52. > :12:54.as an insight into what this comment is doing and it says a great deal
:12:55. > :13:00.about how little we have been told in Parliament and the media about
:13:01. > :13:03.what they are up. Do you think it is exciting we are going for tariff
:13:04. > :13:11.free trade? We're easily excited these days. We don't know. This is
:13:12. > :13:15.where these things are at such a tentative phase. We don't know how
:13:16. > :13:21.the rest of the European Union is going to respond to Britain's
:13:22. > :13:26.negotiating hand. We know Britain once the best of everything, please.
:13:27. > :13:31.It is a starting point. But that is not how it is going to end up. We
:13:32. > :13:33.are getting wider than that. We have will have to see.
:13:34. > :13:35.Now, Universal Credit, a single payment made to welfare
:13:36. > :13:37.claimants that would roll together a plethora of benefits whilst
:13:38. > :13:40.encouraging people into work by making work pay.
:13:41. > :13:42.But have cuts to the flagship welfare scheme reduced work
:13:43. > :13:48.incentives and hit the incomes of the least well-off?
:13:49. > :13:50.Well, some of the government's own MPs think so, and,
:13:51. > :13:57.as Mark Lobel reports, want the cuts reversed.
:13:58. > :14:00.Theresa May says she wants a country that works
:14:01. > :14:04.for everyone, that's on the side of ordinary, working people.
:14:05. > :14:07.It means never writing off people who can work and consigning them
:14:08. > :14:10.to a life on benefits, but giving them the chance to go out
:14:11. > :14:13.and earn a living and to enjoy the dignity that comes
:14:14. > :14:19.But now some in her party are worried that the low earners
:14:20. > :14:24.will be hit by changes to Universal Credit benefit system
:14:25. > :14:26.originally set up to encourage more people into work.
:14:27. > :14:29.We also need to focus tax credits and Universal Credit
:14:30. > :14:35.Concern centred on the Government's decision in the July 2015 budget
:14:36. > :14:44.to find ?3 billion worth of savings from the Universal Credit bill.
:14:45. > :14:47.Conservative MP Heidi Allen is working on a campaign to get MPs
:14:48. > :14:55.in her party to urge the Prime Minister to think again.
:14:56. > :14:58.I want her to understand for herself what the outcomes might
:14:59. > :15:00.be if we press ahead with the Universal Credit,
:15:01. > :15:04.Do you think Theresa May, right now, understands what you understand
:15:05. > :15:07.To be fair, unless you really get into the detail,
:15:08. > :15:10.and I have through my work on the Work and Pensions
:15:11. > :15:11.Select Committee, I don't think anybody does.
:15:12. > :15:17.Independent economic analysts at the IFS agree with Heidi Alan
:15:18. > :15:22.that cuts to Universal Credit weaken incentives to work.
:15:23. > :15:24.One of the key parts of the Universal Credit system
:15:25. > :15:28.That is how much you can earn before your credit
:15:29. > :15:30.As the Government has sought to save money,
:15:31. > :15:33.both under the Coalition and now they Conservative Government,
:15:34. > :15:35.both under the Coalition and now the Conservative Government,
:15:36. > :15:37.that work allowance has been cut, time and time again.
:15:38. > :15:40.The biggest cuts happened in the summer budget of 2015.
:15:41. > :15:42.That basically reduces the amount of earnings you get to keep
:15:43. > :15:46.It weakens the incentive people have to move into work.
:15:47. > :15:48.What do changes to the Universal Credit system mean?
:15:49. > :15:51.The Resolution Foundation think tank has crunched the numbers.
:15:52. > :15:55.If you compare what would have happened before the July 2015 summer
:15:56. > :15:58.budget to what will happen by 2 20, even if you take into account gains
:15:59. > :16:00.in the National Living Wage and income tax cuts,
:16:01. > :16:05.recipients will be hit by annual deductions.
:16:06. > :16:09.Couples and parents would receive, on average, ?1000 less.
:16:10. > :16:11.A dual-earning couple with two children under four,
:16:12. > :16:14.with one partner working full-time on ?10.50 an hour and the other
:16:15. > :16:17.working part-time on the minimum wage for around 20
:16:18. > :16:24.hours a week, they would receive ?1800 less.
:16:25. > :16:26.Hit most by the changes would be a single parent
:16:27. > :16:28.with a child under four, working full-time
:16:29. > :16:42.I think, if I'm honest, it is unrealistic, given
:16:43. > :16:45.the economic climate, to expect everything to be reversed.
:16:46. > :16:51.What I would like to see is an increase in the work
:16:52. > :16:54.allowances to those people who will be hardest hit.
:16:55. > :16:57.That is single parents and second earners hoping to return to work,
:16:58. > :16:59.because they are the people we need to absolutely make
:17:00. > :17:04.The Sunday Politics understands that about 15 to 20 Conservative MPs
:17:05. > :17:07.are pushing for changes ahead of the Autumn Statement.
:17:08. > :17:11.A former cabinet minister told us that they believed further impact
:17:12. > :17:13.analysis should be done to find out if any mitigation measures
:17:14. > :17:20.Former Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith, an architect
:17:21. > :17:24.of the system, now says the cuts should be reversed.
:17:25. > :17:29.But his former department has told us that it has no plans to revisit
:17:30. > :17:34.the work allowance changes announced in the budget last year.
:17:35. > :17:37.What I would say to Heidi Allen and IDS, they got it right the first
:17:38. > :17:40.time and they should stick to the vote they cast last year
:17:41. > :17:42.because these reforms actually do make sense.
:17:43. > :17:45.What interests me is the fact we are trying to move people
:17:46. > :17:47.off welfare into work, we are raising the wages people
:17:48. > :17:49.earn by massively increasing the minimum wage and this
:17:50. > :17:53.People are coming off welfare and into work.
:17:54. > :17:56.Campaigners are pushing for savings to come from other areas to relieve
:17:57. > :18:02.The other thing we have to start looking at is the triple
:18:03. > :18:06.Financially it has been a great policy, and it was absolutely right
:18:07. > :18:08.that we lifted pensioners who were significantly behind,
:18:09. > :18:10.for many years, in terms of income levels, but they have
:18:11. > :18:16.I think it is time for us to look at that policy again,
:18:17. > :18:18.because is costing us an awful lot of money.
:18:19. > :18:21.With just over three weeks to wait until the Conservative leadership's
:18:22. > :18:24.new economic plan is unveiled in the Autumn Statement,
:18:25. > :18:27.its top team is under pressure from within its own ranks to use it
:18:28. > :18:37.And I'm joined now by former Work and Pensions Secretary,
:18:38. > :18:45.Welcome back to the programme. Theresa May said she is on the side
:18:46. > :18:50.of the just managing, the working poor. But they are about to be hit
:18:51. > :18:54.from all sides. Their modest living standards are going to be squeezed
:18:55. > :18:58.as inflation overtakes pay rises, they will be further squeezed
:18:59. > :19:01.because top-up benefits in work are frozen. Incentives to work are going
:19:02. > :19:06.to be reduced by the cuts in universal benefits. So much for
:19:07. > :19:11.being on the side of those just managing? Theresa was right to focus
:19:12. > :19:18.on this group. The definition has to be the bottom half, in economic
:19:19. > :19:22.terms, of the social structure. It doesn't look good for them? This is
:19:23. > :19:25.the point I am making, it is an opportunity to put some of this
:19:26. > :19:28.right. One of the reasons I resigned in March is because I felt the
:19:29. > :19:32.direction of travel we had been going in had been to take far too
:19:33. > :19:36.much money out of that group of people when there are other areas
:19:37. > :19:40.which, if you need to make some of those savings, you can. The key bit
:19:41. > :19:43.is that the group needs to be helped through into work and encouraged to
:19:44. > :19:47.stay in work. There was a report done with the IFS, when we were
:19:48. > :19:53.there, at Universal Credit. It said Universal Credit rolled out, as it
:19:54. > :19:57.should have been before the cuts, people would be much more likely to
:19:58. > :20:01.stay in work longer and earn more money. It is a net positive, but
:20:02. > :20:05.that is now called into question. Let's unpick some of the detail but
:20:06. > :20:09.first, do you accept the words of David Willets? It says on the basis
:20:10. > :20:16.of the things I read out to you that the just managing face a significant
:20:17. > :20:21.and painful cut in real terms if we continue on the way we are going. I
:20:22. > :20:29.do, in essence. That is the reason why I resigned. I felt Heidi raised
:20:30. > :20:33.that issue as well, that we got the balance wrong. It is right that
:20:34. > :20:37.pensioners get to a certain point, when they are on a level par, doing
:20:38. > :20:42.the right thing over five years Staying with that process has cost
:20:43. > :20:50.us ?18 billion extra this year, in total. It will go on costing another
:20:51. > :20:55.5 billion. Then there is the issue of tax allowances. I want to remind
:20:56. > :21:02.you and viewers what David Cameron told the Conservative conference in
:21:03. > :21:07.2009. If you are a single mother with two children, earning ?150 a
:21:08. > :21:11.week, the withdrawal of your benefits and the additional taxes
:21:12. > :21:18.that you pay me on that for every extra you earn, you keep just 4p.
:21:19. > :21:24.What kind of incentive is that? 30 years ago, this party won and
:21:25. > :21:34.election fighting against 98% tax rates for the Rex richest. I want us
:21:35. > :21:39.today to show even more anger about 96% tax rates for the very poorest
:21:40. > :21:45.in our country. Real anger, and effective rate of over 90%.
:21:46. > :21:49.Universal Credit reduces that. Some will still face, as they lose
:21:50. > :21:54.benefits and pay tax, a marginal rate of over 75%. That is still too
:21:55. > :21:58.high? Yes, it is the collision between those going into work at the
:21:59. > :22:03.moment they start paying tax. A racial Universal Credit is set at
:22:04. > :22:09.65%. You can call that the base marginal tax rate. 1.2 million will
:22:10. > :22:13.face 75%? That is the point about why the allowances are so important.
:22:14. > :22:16.The point about the allowances which viewers might not fully understand
:22:17. > :22:20.is that it was set, as part of Universal Credit, to allow you to
:22:21. > :22:23.get certain people, with certain difficulties, as they cross into
:22:24. > :22:30.work, to retain more benefit before it is tapered away as they go up in
:22:31. > :22:34.hours. A lone parent, who might have various issues, you want her to have
:22:35. > :22:38.a bigger incentive than a single person that does not have the same
:22:39. > :22:42.commitments. It is structured so that somebody who has difficulty
:22:43. > :22:44.going to work, they all have slightly different rates. What
:22:45. > :22:48.happened is that last year a decision was taken to reduce tax
:22:49. > :22:52.credits, and, on the back of that, to reduce allowances. I believe
:22:53. > :22:58.given everything that happened now, we need to restore that to the point
:22:59. > :23:01.where it helps those people crossing over. You say a decision was taken,
:23:02. > :23:06.it was a decision by the former Chancellor George Osborne in the
:23:07. > :23:10.summer budget. Other decisions were taken in successive Budgets to raise
:23:11. > :23:13.the Universal Credit budget, which resulted in the disincentive being
:23:14. > :23:18.higher than many people wanted. Do you accept that has been the
:23:19. > :23:21.consequence of his decisions? I was in the Government, we take
:23:22. > :23:25.collective responsibility. I argued this was not the right way to go,
:23:26. > :23:28.but when you are in you have to stay with it if you lose that argument.
:23:29. > :23:32.There was another attempt before the spending review last year to
:23:33. > :23:37.increase the taper, so the marginal rate would have gone up. I managed
:23:38. > :23:40.to stop that. I'm Sibley saying what we made as a decision last
:23:41. > :23:46.year, given the circumstances and given that the net effect of all of
:23:47. > :23:49.that, I think it is time for the Government to ask the question, if
:23:50. > :23:53.we are in this to help that group of people, Universal Credit is
:23:54. > :23:56.singularly the most powerful tool. One of the Argentine aid in the
:23:57. > :24:02.paper published on Thursday, we are set going on doing two more races of
:24:03. > :24:08.the tax threshold, taking more people out of tax. That has a
:24:09. > :24:14.diminishing effect on the bottom section. Only 25p in that tax rate
:24:15. > :24:18.will help any of those. Most of it goes to middle income? You and I
:24:19. > :24:22.will benefit more from that. With Universal Credit, every pound you
:24:23. > :24:26.put into that will go to the bottom five tenths. That is why I designed
:24:27. > :24:31.it like that. He pressed the button and immediately start to changed
:24:32. > :24:34.circumstances. Should the cuts in Universal Credit that Mr Osborne
:24:35. > :24:40.introduced, against your argument, should they be reversed? I believe
:24:41. > :24:43.so. I believe you can do it even if there is concern about spending I
:24:44. > :24:47.don't believe you need to go through with the continuing raise the tax
:24:48. > :24:55.threshold. Cost is dependent on inflation, but give or take. It is
:24:56. > :25:00.in the Tory manifesto? Has more than doubled. What is in the manifesto,
:25:01. > :25:06.and Lasse Prime Minister made this clear in conference, we want to
:25:07. > :25:09.improve the life chances of people. Today's announcement on the Green
:25:10. > :25:12.paper is what I wrote over the last two and a half years. Big changes
:25:13. > :25:17.necessary to how we deal with sickness benefit. That can now be
:25:18. > :25:20.done because of Universal Credit, because people can go back to work
:25:21. > :25:24.and it tapers away their benefits. It is the most powerful tool to sort
:25:25. > :25:29.our people that live in poverty Universal Credit. We need to make
:25:30. > :25:32.sure it lands positively. If Mr Osborne's cuts were reversed, what
:25:33. > :25:37.you and some of your backbench Tory colleagues want to do, how would
:25:38. > :25:43.that improve the incentives of the working poor, as they try to get on
:25:44. > :25:49.in life? They have to pay more tax, they lose some benefits. How would
:25:50. > :25:53.it improve it? Would many still face a 75% rate? The key question is
:25:54. > :25:58.first and foremost, as people move through income to the point where
:25:59. > :26:01.they are getting taxed, that group will be enormously benefited by the
:26:02. > :26:07.re-emergence of these allowances at the right level. That is what the
:26:08. > :26:11.IFS have said, that is what the Resolution Foundation are saying,
:26:12. > :26:15.and the Centre For Social Justice is saying. You have to get that group,
:26:16. > :26:19.because they are most likely to be drifting into poverty and less
:26:20. > :26:24.incomes are right. Would it help those who face a 75% margin? We
:26:25. > :26:29.don't face that. Exactly right. People much poorer than us do. I
:26:30. > :26:38.would love to get the marginal rate down to testify percent, and lower,.
:26:39. > :26:41.-- down to 65%. It is a balance of how you spend the money. I would
:26:42. > :26:49.prefer to do that rather than necessarily go ahead with threshold
:26:50. > :26:54.razors. I think the coronation of the marginal reduction of 65%,
:26:55. > :26:57.getting it down to 60%, plus more allowances, will allow Universal
:26:58. > :27:01.Credit to get to the group that is going to be, and the report written
:27:02. > :27:05.by the IFS and ourselves, it shows it is going to be the most dynamic
:27:06. > :27:09.and direct ability of a Government to be able to influence the way that
:27:10. > :27:16.people improve their incomes in the bottom five deciles. Would you take
:27:17. > :27:22.on extra work if you knew you were going to lose 75% of it? Even 6 %?
:27:23. > :27:27.This has been my argument all along. Universal Credit can help that
:27:28. > :27:32.enormously. One point that goes missing, 70% of the bottom five
:27:33. > :27:34.deciles will be on Universal Credit. Whatever change you make to
:27:35. > :27:40.Universal Credit has a dramatic and immediate effect I am arguing,
:27:41. > :27:44.genuinely, it is time to rethink this. The Prime Minister wants to
:27:45. > :27:48.make this a priority. I am completely with her on this. I think
:27:49. > :27:53.she made a really good start. To deliver this, we need to... You have
:27:54. > :27:57.a lot of work to do to deliver it. Because it is a manifesto
:27:58. > :28:02.commitment, or because they want to do it, stopping increasing the
:28:03. > :28:05.personal allowances are not acceptable, what about bringing to
:28:06. > :28:10.an end, by the end of the parliament, the pension triple lock
:28:11. > :28:17.that pensioners enjoy to improve and put more money to the working poor?
:28:18. > :28:21.What about that? Well, you are absolutely right that there is now
:28:22. > :28:24.the danger, I think, of a mess balance between the generations
:28:25. > :28:28.Quite rightly at the beginning, when we came in, we have a commitment as
:28:29. > :28:34.a Conservative Party in a manifesto to get pensions back onto earnings.
:28:35. > :28:39.It was moved to a triple lock that guaranteed a minimum. What about
:28:40. > :28:43.ending up now? I understand it is a promise through the Parliament, but
:28:44. > :28:47.after 2020? I am in favour of getting it back to innings and
:28:48. > :28:52.allowing it to rise at reasonable levels. Moving from earnings to the
:28:53. > :28:56.triple lock has cost ?18 billion this year. Here was a high, under
:28:57. > :29:00.pressure, as the Government was scratching around to pay more money
:29:01. > :29:04.out of working age areas, when the budget was almost out of control on
:29:05. > :29:07.the pension side. I'm in favour of helping pensioners, but now they are
:29:08. > :29:11.up to a reasonable level, at a steady rate, that can be afforded by
:29:12. > :29:16.Government, which takes the pressure off, working age people have to pay
:29:17. > :29:27.for that. In years to come, time to end the triple lock
:29:28. > :29:31.and use the savings to help these people we have been talking about?
:29:32. > :29:33.As part of a load of packages, yes. It would also help with the
:29:34. > :29:36.intergenerational fairness argument. Thank you for being with us.
:29:37. > :29:38.Now, a prominent London Imam called Shakeel Begg -
:29:39. > :29:41.who is Chief Imam the Lewisham Islamic Centre - is an extremist.
:29:42. > :29:45.That was the verdict of the judge in a libel action that Mr Begg took
:29:46. > :29:48.against the BBC, after we described him as an Islamic extremist
:29:49. > :29:52.Mr Begg had complained about a short segment in an interview in November
:29:53. > :29:55.2013 with Farooq Murad, the then head of the Muslim Council
:29:56. > :29:57.of Britain, an organisation which claims to represent British
:29:58. > :30:03.In that interview, we described Mr Begg as an extremist speaker
:30:04. > :30:05.who had hailed jihad is the greatest of deeds.
:30:06. > :30:09.From his base of the Lewisham Islamic Centre, Mr Begg has been
:30:10. > :30:13.involved in a number of community organisations, including
:30:14. > :30:15.the Police Independent Advisory Group in Lewisham,
:30:16. > :30:20.Lewisham Council's Advisory Council on Religious Education
:30:21. > :30:23.and as a volunteer chaplain at Lewisham Hospital.
:30:24. > :30:28.But in his judgment, Mr Justice Haddon-Cave called
:30:29. > :30:32.Mr Begg a Jekyll and Hyde character - a trusted figure in his local
:30:33. > :30:35.community, but when talking to predominantly Muslim audiences
:30:36. > :30:40.he shed the cloak of respectability and revealed the horns of extremism.
:30:41. > :30:43.The judge cited one speech made by Mr Begg at a rally
:30:44. > :30:45.outside Belmarsh Prisonm- the high security prison that houses
:30:46. > :30:49.terrorists - as particularly sinister.
:30:50. > :30:51.The judge said the imam was expressing admiration and praise
:30:52. > :30:57.Following Friday's judgment, the hospital trust have told us that
:30:58. > :31:02.Mr Begg's status as a voluntary chaplain has been terminated.
:31:03. > :31:05.We have been told by Lewisham Council he is no longer
:31:06. > :31:07.on their Religious Education Committee.
:31:08. > :31:09.The Metropolitan Police have confirmed that
:31:10. > :31:14.Mr Begg remains a member of their Independent Advisory Group
:31:15. > :31:23.in Lewisham, as well as the borough's faith group.
:31:24. > :31:27.I am joined by Haras Rafiq, chief executive of the Quilliam
:31:28. > :31:35.Foundation. Welcome to the programme. I have here in my hand a
:31:36. > :31:41.statement from the trustees of the Lewisham Islamic Centre. They reject
:31:42. > :31:43.the judge's ruling as fanciful and say they are unequivocal and
:31:44. > :31:50.unwavering in their support of Shakeel Begg as their head imam
:31:51. > :31:54.What do you make of that? To be honest, it doesn't surprise me. At
:31:55. > :31:58.the end of the day he is only the imam of that mosque because he
:31:59. > :32:03.belongs to the same theological fundamentalist views that the mosque
:32:04. > :32:08.would portray. If they were to say he was an extremist, they would be
:32:09. > :32:11.saying in fact that they have allowed extremist preaching and
:32:12. > :32:17.extremist theology within their walls. I think this is a very
:32:18. > :32:24.important decision and a very important judgment by the judge
:32:25. > :32:28.First of all, these people like to operate in a linear, under a veneer
:32:29. > :32:33.of respectability. When that veneer is taken away, there are a number of
:32:34. > :32:37.things that can happen. First of all, the BBC did very well to stand
:32:38. > :32:44.by their guns and say, we're not going to be intimidated by somebody
:32:45. > :32:48.who is threatening to taking -- to take us to court for potential
:32:49. > :32:53.libel. Many other media companies have done that in the past and
:32:54. > :32:58.people have capitulated. Also, this has exposed him. Legally now, here's
:32:59. > :33:02.some deal can be classified as an extremist preacher, somebody who
:33:03. > :33:06.promotes religious violence. I think the mosque really needs to take a
:33:07. > :33:10.step back and say, how we part of the problem that we are facing
:33:11. > :33:18.within society? Or are we going to be part of the solution? It really
:33:19. > :33:23.concerns me. The High Court judge says that Mr Begg's speeches were
:33:24. > :33:31.consistent with an extremist Salafist is the most worldview. What
:33:32. > :33:41.is Salafist is and how widespread is it in UK mosques? -- mosque. It
:33:42. > :33:44.comes from the Middle East. It is from Saudi Arabia. The enemy for
:33:45. > :33:53.them was the old colonial Ottoman Empire. There is the quiet Salafist
:33:54. > :33:55.to get some with their lives, lives outside society. There is a
:33:56. > :33:59.revolutionary who tries to convert other people to their worldview And
:34:00. > :34:06.then there is the Salafist jihad ease. People like Islamic State etc.
:34:07. > :34:09.We have seen of increased in recent decades because of money that has,
:34:10. > :34:15.growing from the Middle East. When that is mixed with a political
:34:16. > :34:19.ideology, it becomes potent. Do we have a political -- particular
:34:20. > :34:25.problem in Britain with this in our mosques? Absolutely. Without the
:34:26. > :34:27.theology that says hate the other, hate other Muslims, that
:34:28. > :34:33.excommunicate other people, that says it is OK to fight and is good
:34:34. > :34:36.to fight when you have got an enemy, we wouldn't really have a jihadi
:34:37. > :34:44.problem. Really that is something we have to tackle. The number of
:34:45. > :34:49.mosques and institutions supporting Salafist and Islam is has been on
:34:50. > :34:54.the increase. Do we have a problem with what the judge called Jekyll
:34:55. > :35:00.and Hyde characters who hide their extremism except when they are
:35:01. > :35:05.speaking to specific groups? Absolutely. One of the things we
:35:06. > :35:09.have focused on in the past, a number of hate preachers now in
:35:10. > :35:13.prison, people like Anjem Choudary, and everybody focused on them. But
:35:14. > :35:17.there is a range of people operating under that level. People who will
:35:18. > :35:22.show one face to the community because they actually need that for
:35:23. > :35:25.a respectability. They need that for a legitimacy. They need that to
:35:26. > :35:30.operate. When they are behind closed doors and talking to their
:35:31. > :35:35.constitution, that is when you will see the real face of what these
:35:36. > :35:38.people believe. It is an increasing phenomenon. We are seeing it more.
:35:39. > :35:46.And we're going to carry on seeing it. Not just has the Lewisham mosque
:35:47. > :35:50.stuck by him, but given the clarity of the judge's ruling, are you
:35:51. > :35:55.surprised that the Metropolitan police would wish to continue with
:35:56. > :35:58.Mr Begg as an adviser? I'm absolutely shocked that that
:35:59. > :36:04.decision. What Uzzy going to do Advise them on how to deal with
:36:05. > :36:06.extremist preachers and promote religiously motivated violence? I
:36:07. > :36:12.don't know what he's going to advise them on. Because we now have a judge
:36:13. > :36:15.that has ruled against him and actually classified him as an
:36:16. > :36:20.extremist and somebody who promotes religious violence, we actually have
:36:21. > :36:25.a possibility for the CPS to actually prosecute him. There is a
:36:26. > :36:28.law that has been in place since 2005 called religiously motivated
:36:29. > :36:33.violence. If he has been classified as somebody who promotes this, there
:36:34. > :36:37.is a potential for the CPS to prosecute. I want to called into
:36:38. > :36:41.question other organisations, interfaith organisations, other
:36:42. > :36:47.Muslims groups, who say they want to fight extremism, I call on them to
:36:48. > :36:56.say, this guy is an extremist preacher, we should cut our ties
:36:57. > :37:01.from him. This was a very high risk strategy by the BBC. The exposure
:37:02. > :37:06.could have been over ?1.5 million of licence payers money. Will this make
:37:07. > :37:13.it more difficult for Jekyll and Hyde characters to behave as Mr Begg
:37:14. > :37:17.has behaved? Absolutely. It will do. One of the things they will now have
:37:18. > :37:24.to make sure is that they are a lot more careful. Careful with what they
:37:25. > :37:28.say to their own constituency. It won't solve the theological problem.
:37:29. > :37:32.But it will actually stop other people from operating in this manner
:37:33. > :37:36.and allow other media organisations to have the confidence to expose
:37:37. > :37:39.them when they do. Haras Rafiq, thank you for joining us.
:37:40. > :37:41.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:42. > :37:43.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:37:44. > :37:59.I am Lucy Fisher. the Week Ahead.
:38:00. > :38:02.Coming up on the Sunday Polhtics in the south-west.
:38:03. > :38:05.The devolution party is over, as councillors hoping for more
:38:06. > :38:13.money and power are told they must have a mayor.
:38:14. > :38:16.And for the next 20 minutes I'm joined by St Ives MP Derek Thomas,
:38:17. > :38:22.Let's start with the 70 child refugees brought to North Ddvon this
:38:23. > :38:31.Welcomed by many in Torrington, but not all.
:38:32. > :38:33.We are a local, small, close-knit community
:38:34. > :38:45.We cannot look after our own, so why look after everybody else?
:38:46. > :38:48.Apparently they will not be here very long, sent
:38:49. > :38:52.Wednesday, I was told, but that is too long.
:38:53. > :38:56.So, this man's is not the only point of view but there are
:38:57. > :38:59.a significant number of people who feel the same as him.
:39:00. > :39:07.I have been an MP for 18 months and I have had many, many...
:39:08. > :39:09.The refugee crisis has been a live issue.
:39:10. > :39:12.I have had many people cont`ct me and see me and e-mail me.
:39:13. > :39:16.They have all wanted to do the best we can.
:39:17. > :39:19.Whenever there is a crisis we and the government
:39:20. > :39:24.I think it is really import`nt that we make sure the resources
:39:25. > :39:26.are there to help these young people, and we're talking
:39:27. > :39:28.about girls, young girls and children under 13,
:39:29. > :39:32.There has been some discusshon about the ages and how well
:39:33. > :39:37.You say that there haven't been people who have
:39:38. > :39:39.spoken to you in that way, but there was a Facebook page
:39:40. > :39:42.that was taken down this wedk because of the number
:39:43. > :39:48.Will you be listening to those people?
:39:49. > :39:51.Firstly, they are not coming to me, but it is important to note
:39:52. > :39:53.that the unaccompanied children are mostly the vulnerable ones.
:39:54. > :40:01.The ones we saw on TV a couple of weeks ago people who havd
:40:02. > :40:08.But we're talking about young lives that for whatever reason have got
:40:09. > :40:10.in a horrendous situation because of things out
:40:11. > :40:12.of their control and out of other peoples control.
:40:13. > :40:14.Linda, what would you say to these people?
:40:15. > :40:18.Well, first of all can I just say I think there will be so many people
:40:19. > :40:20.in Torrington who will be shck to see their community
:40:21. > :40:25.represented by somebody with views like that.
:40:26. > :40:28.In some ways, I kind of feel sorry for that man.
:40:29. > :40:30.I do, because when he says it is not our problem,
:40:31. > :40:33.actually we are an ageing population in this peninsul`,
:40:34. > :40:40.Our health service is staffdd by a large number of people who come
:40:41. > :40:42.here seeking work as refugeds and asylum seekers.
:40:43. > :40:44.We need to have a lot broader minds
:40:45. > :40:55.Here is the Prime Minister touching down at Newquay on Thursday.
:40:56. > :40:58.Cornwall's airport was named as one of six which could get
:40:59. > :41:04.new London landing slots because of Heathrow expansion.
:41:05. > :41:06.Mrs May had a roundtable discussion with local businesses
:41:07. > :41:08.about the new opportunities her decision to expand
:41:09. > :41:15.The announcement had them dreaming in Plymouth as well,
:41:16. > :41:17.where campaigners are battlhng to reopen the city's airport
:41:18. > :41:27.But their hopes have been ddalt a blow by the leaking
:41:28. > :41:30.of a long-awaited government report which says they need a ?9 mhllion
:41:31. > :41:35.Five years after it closed, the future of Plymouth airport
:41:36. > :41:41.But only this week campaigndrs bidding to reopen were given renewed
:41:42. > :41:43.hope when the government announced that Heathrow will get
:41:44. > :41:56.To get back into Heathrow once again, it would be transforlational
:41:57. > :41:58.and underline the future of the airport for decades.
:41:59. > :42:05.There have been various studies with opposing views.
:42:06. > :42:08.But now the BBC can reveal that a new draft report from
:42:09. > :42:10.the Department for Transport, which reviewed all the prevhous
:42:11. > :42:12.studies, has concluded therd is not sufficient demand to operatd
:42:13. > :42:14.commercially viable passengdr services from a reopened
:42:15. > :42:18.Plymouth City Airport without government subsidy.
:42:19. > :42:24.That is effectively saying ht is not viable again, isn't it?
:42:25. > :42:28.No, they are not published at the moment, but what thex said
:42:29. > :42:29.was would not be viable without government support
:42:30. > :42:43.That is because we said we would like to see region`l air
:42:44. > :42:45.connectivity fund support for developing the routes,
:42:46. > :42:47.to get them to break even in the early years.
:42:48. > :42:50.Suffer them to come back and say we do not know how it can
:42:51. > :42:53.be viable seems to me a strange kind of language.
:42:54. > :42:55.Fly Plymouth claimed they could reopen airport
:42:56. > :42:56.without any subsidy, yet the plan they submitted
:42:57. > :42:59.to the Department for Transport would require ?4 million
:43:00. > :43:02.in government loans at launch, and a further ?5 million to cover
:43:03. > :43:06.Looks to me and anyone else, you are asking for 9
:43:07. > :43:09.You have to distinguish between the nature of subsidies
:43:10. > :43:16.If it were to reopen the government would reasonably expect to be
:43:17. > :43:19.involved in supporting the start-up of that to profit to ensure it
:43:20. > :43:22.Government regularly supports the start-up and recommissioning
:43:23. > :43:24.of new transport projects, so I think the two are very
:43:25. > :43:30.The local MP Johnny Mercer wants the final report published `s soon
:43:31. > :43:34.as possible to bring an end to the uncertainty.
:43:35. > :43:38.The government has made it clear, as has the local authority,
:43:39. > :43:40.that no subsidies are avail`ble for this airport, so that c`nnot
:43:41. > :43:43.operate without a subsidy, then I think we need to havd a look
:43:44. > :43:46.at that and decide where we go from there.
:43:47. > :43:49.So, for now the uncertainty continues.
:43:50. > :43:51.The Department for Transport says the final study will be
:43:52. > :43:56.Plymouth City Council says while it is seeking to protdct
:43:57. > :43:59.the airport in its local pl`n, its future will ultimately be
:44:00. > :44:03.decided by an independent inspector next summer.
:44:04. > :44:05.And Sutton Harbour Holdings which leases the airport
:44:06. > :44:07.from the council says it will continue with its plans
:44:08. > :44:19.Meanwhile the Prime Minister touched down at Newquay airport on Thursday,
:44:20. > :44:22.which will benefit from Heathrow's expansion.
:44:23. > :44:24.As she announced increased health funding for the south-west,
:44:25. > :44:33.it looks more like Plymouth airport's malaise could be terminal.
:44:34. > :44:36.Derek, you were with Theres` May yesterday in Newquay.
:44:37. > :44:39.Do you think to some extent that she is hoping we will forget
:44:40. > :44:44.about our train line by makhng announcements about the airport
:44:45. > :44:51.I was delighted to welcome the prime to Cornwall so soon
:44:52. > :44:54.so soon after becoming PM, it was a fantastic indication
:44:55. > :44:58.But actually I do not think that was her intention at all.
:44:59. > :45:01.There is a real mix of transport infrastructure we must get
:45:02. > :45:04.right in the south-west, including the railway and roads
:45:05. > :45:06.and including obviously the flying with aeroplanes.
:45:07. > :45:09.Is new slots to Heathrow the solution here, could yot not
:45:10. > :45:11.expand so that you actually have more flights abroad without having
:45:12. > :45:16.Certainly we would welcome `nything we can to improve the econoly
:45:17. > :45:22.and get people moving to Cornwall, in particular West Cornwall,
:45:23. > :45:29.but I think we still need to link to London and I think the ilproved
:45:30. > :45:35.the improved rail journeys, both the times...
:45:36. > :45:39.Well, you asked about whethdr airport was a distraction from
:45:40. > :45:55.Yes, with the Dawlish section of line and the improvements.
:45:56. > :45:59.A task force has been working on the strategy, we are going to be
:46:00. > :46:02.presenting that to the government this autumn, and we're ambitious
:46:03. > :46:06.It is going to take time, but transport is about all these
:46:07. > :46:08.things, the roads, the A30 being a dual carriageway
:46:09. > :46:13.all the way to Penzance, that is what I'm arguing for.
:46:14. > :46:14.When you were an MP in Plymouth the airport
:46:15. > :46:18.Do you think Plymouth will now suffer at the hands of Newqtay,
:46:19. > :46:28.money will go to Newquay rather than Plymouth City Airport?
:46:29. > :46:31.Well, it was that in the beginning which undermined Plymouth when
:46:32. > :46:33.Flybe started running flights in front of the ones
:46:34. > :46:34.that hopped over from Plymouth
:46:35. > :46:37.to Newquay, got enough passengers to keep it going.
:46:38. > :46:40.I have an adjournment debatd in Parliament, I championed airport,
:46:41. > :46:42.and there were I think 130 plus thousand people flying
:46:43. > :46:47.Fly Plymouth will obviously be mindful that they would havd that
:46:48. > :46:49.kind of cooperation again in order to get the numbers up.
:46:50. > :46:52.Do you think it can ever happen can we forget Plymouth City Airport
:46:53. > :46:54.and concentrate on the two others, Exeter and Newquay?
:46:55. > :47:00.There are loads of hurdles to overcome and that one.
:47:01. > :47:03.We thought we had come to the point where we were given
:47:04. > :47:10.The railway is absolutely vhtal not just about improvement but
:47:11. > :47:13.about keeping that bit of connectivity,
:47:14. > :47:15.and our connectivity is fragile, open.
:47:16. > :47:18.Back to the three airports, do we need them or should
:47:19. > :47:23.Well, I think Fly Plymouth obviously have to put
:47:24. > :47:29.They have owned up to the f`ct that they need some sort of subsidy,
:47:30. > :47:42.We are talking 9 million, Ddrek to reopen Plymouth airport.
:47:43. > :47:49.It actually doesn't sound like that much money.
:47:50. > :47:51.But you will be familiar with the helicopter link,
:47:52. > :47:53.or what was, from Penzance to the Isles of Scilly.
:47:54. > :47:56.I tried to get some subsidy for that, which is a really
:47:57. > :47:58.important link, but it was not available or forthcoming.
:47:59. > :48:10.Sometimes we have to stop looking always to the government
:48:11. > :48:14.or the councils to give grants and make the business case.
:48:15. > :48:17.It is galling for people down here, I know we had assurances th`t
:48:18. > :48:20.infrastructure will be lookdd at, but to see the kind of monex
:48:21. > :48:23.being spent on HS2 and up to the north, when you cannot get
:48:24. > :48:27.the money to prop open your airport or to fix the link at Dawlish.
:48:28. > :48:33.Well, that is absolutely right, and if we're going to get the khnd of
:48:34. > :48:37.growth we have potential for, and productivity, then we need to solve
:48:38. > :48:42.these problems and get coopdration both from government but also within
:48:43. > :48:49.the communities, to make our connectivity across the piece is
:48:50. > :48:53.good it -- as good as it can get. If the people of Plymouth can lake this
:48:54. > :48:59.happen, that will be good for the economy, but we the governmdnt needs
:49:00. > :49:02.to concentrate on really good road infrastructure, rail infrastructure.
:49:03. > :49:07.But the money has to come from somewhere. And there is mondy.. It
:49:08. > :49:12.was very disappointing that Theresa May was not giving more substance to
:49:13. > :49:18.the money that will be needdd for the Dawlish bit of the line. That is
:49:19. > :49:23.important for you in Cornwall as well. But the strategy is not before
:49:24. > :49:29.the government yet. She is talking about much less money than hs needed
:49:30. > :49:32.to do it. So we're still wahting to hear the confirmation of th`t.
:49:33. > :49:35.Council leaders in the South West have reacted angrily to comlents
:49:36. > :49:41.made by the community secretary during a visit to is Exeter last
:49:42. > :49:46.week. Sergei Javid told thel that if they wanted more money and power,
:49:47. > :49:51.south-west powerhouse lead by one south-west powerhouse lead by one
:49:52. > :49:54.person. He said the devoluthon deal was not ambitious, and if the
:49:55. > :50:03.council wanted to make a difference, they had to have a major.
:50:04. > :50:06.July seemed to bring a new dawn for local government. This is a very big
:50:07. > :50:10.deal. Cornwall is the first county to get these new powers. Cornwall
:50:11. > :50:15.had just secured the first lajor devolution deal outside the big
:50:16. > :50:20.cities. Powers over adult training, economic development, bus rdgulation
:50:21. > :50:29.Lingle Don. I was delighted to Lingle Don. I was delighted to
:50:30. > :50:34.travel down with the Prime Linister to celebrate it and to do so over a
:50:35. > :50:41.paint that evening. In fact, the government spent a year and more
:50:42. > :50:44.toasting the flagship Cornish devolution deal, and suggesting the
:50:45. > :50:50.county's trailblazing for uncle rural areas wanting to get ` slice
:50:51. > :51:02.of the action. Suddenly, thd beer now seems to have turned rather
:51:03. > :51:07.sour. Unambitious deal, and frankly the Cornwall one was not ambitious,
:51:08. > :51:12.did not include any money, had few hours, so they will no one that got
:51:13. > :51:15.away with not having a mayor, so you have got to ask yourself wh`t is the
:51:16. > :51:19.point of going down this ro`d in unless you want to make a
:51:20. > :51:28.difference, and if you do, xou have to have a mayor. I very much object
:51:29. > :51:32.to being threatened and being told we will do this with you but only if
:51:33. > :51:37.you organise it this way. I think that is wrong. We do not do that. We
:51:38. > :51:42.talked about what the deal would be and what we can relinquish, we talk
:51:43. > :51:45.about how we can do things, but we do not say, but you must do it in
:51:46. > :51:52.this manner, and I do not think government should be saying that to
:51:53. > :51:55.us either. It is the cider drinking counties of Devon and Somerset who
:51:56. > :52:01.have been warned by the comlunity secretary not to drink from the same
:52:02. > :52:04.cup as the unambitious Cornhsh. They want to secure a joint devolution
:52:05. > :52:10.deal for the two counties, but the one thing they will not swallow is
:52:11. > :52:15.an elected mayor. Three months ago it was all smiles and celebrations
:52:16. > :52:21.as the government assure thdm they did not need to have a mayor. But
:52:22. > :52:25.the party is over now. From anyone who wants ambitious and deal, they
:52:26. > :52:30.have to have a mayor. He made it clear at the beginning that for in
:52:31. > :52:33.order for us to have the money and power, we had to have a mayor.
:52:34. > :52:41.Afterwards I spoke to him, `nd said Afterwards I spoke to him, `nd said
:52:42. > :52:44.that this is a nonstarter. @mong the collective hangover, voices in the
:52:45. > :52:47.business community say that accepting a mayor could be the only
:52:48. > :52:52.way to make the good times roll again. This is the important message
:52:53. > :52:57.for the public sector leaders. If we're going to unlock the btsiness
:52:58. > :53:00.investment, and it is a hugd appetite to do that, business will
:53:01. > :53:05.invest, they need strong le`dership, they need to steer from a cdntral
:53:06. > :53:12.person, the mayor, to make sure they understand exactly where we are
:53:13. > :53:15.going with our plans for thd future. With the community secretarx's
:53:16. > :53:18.comments casting a long shadow over the South West's existing ddvolution
:53:19. > :53:22.plans, councillors seem detdrmined to walk their own regardless. The
:53:23. > :53:29.question, whether that is ddstined to see them run into the sand. So,
:53:30. > :53:45.what is this obsession the Tories have with Mayers question -,
:53:46. > :53:48.mayors?. The money and the power goes with the mayor, you cannot have
:53:49. > :53:55.the money empowered if you do not have one, why? This was passed by
:53:56. > :53:58.all parties. But why? They have decided that is the way to get the
:53:59. > :54:04.economy working better. If xou look at the Cornish council, we have an
:54:05. > :54:10.independent party led counchl, and over the last four years, I do not
:54:11. > :54:14.see much they have done to help business. So many things thdy have
:54:15. > :54:24.done of hindered business. H get so frustrated of people saying they are
:54:25. > :54:28.not understanding --... Perhaps this is not the best way to go forward.
:54:29. > :54:33.Which way do you see of going forward here? Do you think ht would
:54:34. > :54:37.be beneficial for Devon to have a mayor? No, I do not. It is clear
:54:38. > :54:41.that all people who have bedn working on the plans for thd
:54:42. > :54:44.combined authority have identified what they cold the golden
:54:45. > :54:49.opportunities. They have got a very clear idea of what they want to
:54:50. > :54:58.deliver with new powers and money. And I think, I do not know what
:54:59. > :55:02.constituents Sajid Javid represents, because we do not need top-down
:55:03. > :55:06.and Cornwall Police is saying that and Cornwall Police is saying that
:55:07. > :55:12.this is what we want to do `nd this is what we want to do it, then
:55:13. > :55:28.hopefully MPs will be standhng up that. -- people in. An easidr
:55:29. > :55:32.solution would settle all this. We have a council election in Lay, let
:55:33. > :55:38.us ask the people of Cornwall whether they want a mayor are not.
:55:39. > :55:40.It does not need to be a referendum, it could be what each polithcal
:55:41. > :55:42.party sets before the peopld. It was rejected in Plymouth when there was
:55:43. > :55:49.a request to foist a mayor on as. a request to foist a mayor on as.
:55:50. > :55:55.And in Torbay it has not bedn a success. I am closely involved in
:55:56. > :55:57.the devolution deal with John Pollock, and I know that many of the
:55:58. > :55:59.things in these meetings do not things in these meetings do not
:56:00. > :56:03.represent what people are tdlling me out and about, and people are
:56:04. > :56:09.unclear about what the devolution deal is. We are serious abott health
:56:10. > :56:15.and social care integration. That is because it is top-down, and the
:56:16. > :56:20.structures are there aren't being developed, and listening to people
:56:21. > :56:23.in a constructive way, but `t the moment somebody top-down from the
:56:24. > :56:28.metropolitan elite telling people in Devon and Cornwall Police to do and
:56:29. > :56:29.how is not what we need mord of Sounds like the opposite of
:56:30. > :56:35.devolution, someone telling Devon devolution, someone telling Devon
:56:36. > :56:39.and Cornwall what to do. As we heard, the first area to have a
:56:40. > :56:46.devolution deal, and there `re number things round transport,
:56:47. > :56:50.Sergei Javid said it did not involve Sergei Javid said it did not involve
:56:51. > :56:58.money, what is the point of going down that route? -- Sajid J`vid I
:56:59. > :57:02.cannot see why it would be ` problem. I was on the progr`mme with
:57:03. > :57:05.the leader when this was behng put forward. The problem with the deal
:57:06. > :57:09.is because they went early `nd too quickly. They put it togethdr in a
:57:10. > :57:15.hurry, and I said at the tile that I didn't think it would be a good
:57:16. > :57:18.thing for them to be amongst the first. They seem to think it was a
:57:19. > :57:20.good idea but I think they would have been better waiting, crafting
:57:21. > :57:25.it together more carefully. If it is not working now, I do not think that
:57:26. > :57:28.is lack of the mayor, it is lack of care and attention to getting the
:57:29. > :57:32.programme right in the beginning. We have to move on. It is time for our
:57:33. > :57:39.round-up of the political wdek in 60 seconds.
:57:40. > :57:46.On a visit to Cornwall, the Prime Minister says decisions abott
:57:47. > :57:51.cutting health services must be made locally. We're going to see over the
:57:52. > :57:59.next two years, up to 2020, a significant amount of extra money
:58:00. > :58:04.being put into the south-west for health services. What the hdalth
:58:05. > :58:07.service is now doing is talking to local areas about how that hs going
:58:08. > :58:10.to be spent and what servicds will be provided in different ardas. A
:58:11. > :58:13.council decision to paint the double yellow line in the middle of a road
:58:14. > :58:20.is raised in the Commons by the South East Cornwall MP. Can you tell
:58:21. > :58:25.nobody can do about this? Tdll them to vote Conservative! The pdople of
:58:26. > :58:28.Torquay be tall -- are told there will be no Christmas lights this
:58:29. > :58:32.year after the responsibility for funding them was handed to the
:58:33. > :58:36.Chamber of Commerce. That mhght mean job losses and shops closing, it
:58:37. > :58:44.might mean developers will take one look at Torquay and say we do not
:58:45. > :58:47.want to know. OK, Linda, we heard Theresa May say that there would be
:58:48. > :58:49.more money for the region for health services, albeit that difficult
:58:50. > :58:57.decisions would have to be lade locally about it. Where you
:58:58. > :58:57.reassured by that? I thought she would very uncomfortable herself
:58:58. > :59:02.when she said that, and it hs very when she said that, and it hs very
:59:03. > :59:05.sad that some quite good pl`ns for the transformation of the hdalth
:59:06. > :59:11.service are being made against a background of cuts. She is seeing
:59:12. > :59:21.more money, but more money when exactly? Is it now or later? Is an
:59:22. > :59:24.hour later? I do not think ht is a lot because she was seeing difficult
:59:25. > :59:28.decisions would have to be lade I have been involved in the
:59:29. > :59:33.transformation plan, and I see it not as a way to cut the cost of
:59:34. > :59:40.funding but to integrate services so you prayed I'd better service to
:59:41. > :59:44.people. -- back to provide. Once we have the transformation plan
:59:45. > :59:48.together, there is a pot of money, ?8 billion, available for us to bid
:59:49. > :59:57.so we can transform services before we see others. That is not `ll for
:59:58. > :00:02.Cornwall. There were MPs lining up to attack plans to cut beds and
:00:03. > :00:06.hospitals. If you look at Cornwall, most people agree that we h`ve beds
:00:07. > :00:09.in the wrong place and not dnough in the right place. So what we are
:00:10. > :00:15.arguing for those looking at what beds we have across the system and
:00:16. > :00:19.making sure they really work. I need to stop because we want to talk
:00:20. > :00:22.about the Christmas lights hn Torquay briefly. No Christm`s
:00:23. > :00:26.lights. Is listening sample of weird it would have been better to have
:00:27. > :00:30.left it to the council? I think a lot of people will be saying yes,
:00:31. > :00:35.but clearly the right hand hasn t been speaking to the left and people
:00:36. > :00:38.have not been getting together. I think it is desperately sad and hope
:00:39. > :00:44.that local people can be innovative and coming up with ways. It seems so
:00:45. > :00:57.sad. Voluntary groups do a fantastic Barely more than a week
:00:58. > :01:01.now until polling day, and a new revelation rocks the US
:01:02. > :01:11.Presidential election campaign. If it wasn't bizarre enough, it just
:01:12. > :01:15.got more bizarre. The FBI have reopened their
:01:16. > :01:17.investigation into Hillary Clinton's use of private email servers
:01:18. > :01:19.whilst she was Secretary of State, after the discovery
:01:20. > :01:27.of further emails. Though not on her laptop or even the
:01:28. > :01:32.State Department. Donald Trump is saying that it's
:01:33. > :01:34.bigger than Watergate - so could it swing the election
:01:35. > :01:37.in his favour? We spoke to top US
:01:38. > :01:38.pollster, Frank Luntz. The FBI investigation is happening
:01:39. > :01:42.so late in the election process that it would be very difficult
:01:43. > :01:46.to derail a Clinton victory. That said, if there is one thing
:01:47. > :01:49.that could keep Hillary Clinton from the presidency,
:01:50. > :01:55.it's an FBI investigation. But there's still only four states
:01:56. > :01:57.that really matter, Florida, Ohio, Right now, Clinton has
:01:58. > :02:02.beyond the margin of error leads This would have to have a truly
:02:03. > :02:10.significant impact for the election There is a point about a week ago
:02:11. > :02:17.when I was prepared to say that Clinton had a 95% chance
:02:18. > :02:22.of winning this election. Based on what has happened
:02:23. > :02:28.in the last 48 hours, It is still very likely,
:02:29. > :02:33.but I wouldn't bet on it. I thought the 2000 election would be
:02:34. > :02:36.the best election of my lifetime, And then I thought 2008 would be
:02:37. > :02:41.amazing, because we had two challenger candidates and the first
:02:42. > :02:45.African-American President. It is ugly, it's painful,
:02:46. > :02:54.it is as negative as anything The public is angry,
:02:55. > :02:59.the country, overall, is frustrated. But for entertainment value,
:03:00. > :03:06.these candidates probably should have charged us money,
:03:07. > :03:10.because it's better than any movie at ever seen, it's
:03:11. > :03:23.better than any TV show. That was Frank Luntz. He may be
:03:24. > :03:30.right or wrong about Mrs Clinton still having an 80% chance of
:03:31. > :03:34.winning. I would bet on an 80% chance? Yes, absolutely. I spoke to
:03:35. > :03:37.a high-profile American pollster and strategist last night and he took a
:03:38. > :03:44.rather different view to Frank Luntz. He thought, and I think some
:03:45. > :03:46.other high-profile commentators agree, that this is actually much
:03:47. > :03:52.more serious than some people realise. There are an awful lot of
:03:53. > :03:56.undecided voters out there looking for an excuse to vote Trump. They do
:03:57. > :04:00.not like what they see in either candidate. But because this FBI
:04:01. > :04:06.probe is not going to conclude before the election, the question,
:04:07. > :04:10.the doubt over Hillary Clinton, gives them an excuse to back Trump.
:04:11. > :04:15.The thing that will play on the minds of the voters is, could the
:04:16. > :04:21.100 day honeymoon turning to the 100 day divorce? Which even be
:04:22. > :04:26.impeached? It may give some people an excuse not to vote for Mrs
:04:27. > :04:31.Clinton. It could provide a problem in terms of energising her base The
:04:32. > :04:37.battle ground almost matters more than the polls. Florida and
:04:38. > :04:43.Pennsylvania have been trending to Mrs Clinton. Mr Trump needs to win
:04:44. > :04:52.both. He does not get in without both. He needs both. Just coming up
:04:53. > :04:55.in the latest BBC News, the Washington Post tracking poll, Mrs
:04:56. > :05:03.Clinton is now only one point ahead in the national poll. One point
:05:04. > :05:09.Even given my caveat that the state battles are most important. That is
:05:10. > :05:16.incredibly close? It is. Polls yesterday showed Trump nationally
:05:17. > :05:18.closing of. -- up. There is a clear trend and movement. This has
:05:19. > :05:24.reinforced everything that people who have a problem with Hillary
:05:25. > :05:28.Clinton know about Hillary Clinton. Trump is running this insurgent
:05:29. > :05:33.campaign. We have seen at here with Brexit. If you are running an
:05:34. > :05:35.insurgent campaign, you want to be against the ultimate establishment
:05:36. > :05:41.insider and that is what Hillary Clinton is. I suggested it was
:05:42. > :05:46.bizarre. Fathoming the behaviour of the FBI is interesting as well. This
:05:47. > :05:50.is a separate investigation into a former congressman, Anthony Wiener,
:05:51. > :05:59.who had done all sorts of things. He seemed to be sex text thing a minor.
:06:00. > :06:03.A 15-year-old girl. The FBI investigate. They get his laptop to
:06:04. > :06:09.see what else he has been too. In the course of that, his wife, now
:06:10. > :06:15.separated, the closest adviser to Hillary Clinton, they find on the
:06:16. > :06:26.laptop e-mails involving the Clinton server to her. And yet the FBI
:06:27. > :06:30.cannot, it needs now a separate warrant to access these e-mails It
:06:31. > :06:34.hasn't got that yet. It has got a warrant to do the congressman
:06:35. > :06:41.e-mails. On the basis of not knowing the content, this has happened.
:06:42. > :06:47.Yeah. Who knows? He is a Republican, this guy. Earlier this year he was
:06:48. > :06:52.being praised to the hilt by Democrats. Absolutely. The timing is
:06:53. > :06:58.a nightmare for her. You described the whole sequence. There is nothing
:06:59. > :07:06.definitive to doubt in this sequence. All he is saying is he has
:07:07. > :07:13.discovered more e-mails in effect. They are from the congressman's
:07:14. > :07:18.former wife. On Anthony Wiener's laptop, which apparently she used
:07:19. > :07:22.sometimes. But what that shows is that for all the scrutiny of modern
:07:23. > :07:27.politicians, they cannot escape caricature. And as Tim was just
:07:28. > :07:33.saying, her weakness is perceived to be secretive, elitism and
:07:34. > :07:37.complacency about that elitism. And so just the announcement of a
:07:38. > :07:42.reopening of the investigation so fuels that caricature, you have just
:07:43. > :07:49.revealed a poll giving her a 1% lead. That must be related to what
:07:50. > :07:54.has happened. It is without a shred of evidence that she has done
:07:55. > :07:57.anything wrong. You can see how because people only see things
:07:58. > :08:04.encourage kids, that is deadly serious. -- in caricature. An
:08:05. > :08:09.American friend of mine said we have got our October surprise but we
:08:10. > :08:14.don't know what it is. The FBI must surely come under massive pressure.
:08:15. > :08:21.It did its -- it did this against the Justice Department. The
:08:22. > :08:26.difficulty the FBI had was that this information, for what it's worth, it
:08:27. > :08:29.came to them. Were they not to have said something and it worked to have
:08:30. > :08:34.come out later, they would have been accused of a massive cover-up. They
:08:35. > :08:39.are dammed if they do, dammed if they don't. There is still time for
:08:40. > :08:42.another surprise. And early November surprise. Who knows if there might
:08:43. > :08:48.still be something that comes out on Donald Trump? This is the first
:08:49. > :08:54.election where I can remember we have had two October surprises
:08:55. > :08:58.already. There are is stuff about tapes knocking around about Donald
:08:59. > :09:02.Trump saying racist things. The Clintons have got a lot of friends.
:09:03. > :09:04.It would be a big surprise if we did not see anything else in the next
:09:05. > :09:10.few days. Just when you think it could not get
:09:11. > :09:13.more interesting, it has. There has been plenty in the papers lately
:09:14. > :09:16.about the Ukip leadership saying unpleasant things about each other.
:09:17. > :09:19.But what about Mr Farage himself? What's he up to?
:09:20. > :09:21.Well, on BBC Two tonight we may find out the answer.
:09:22. > :09:28.Well, I'm led to believe she's very experienced.
:09:29. > :09:31.But I don't think Strictly Come Dancing is for me.
:09:32. > :09:37.That is, unless, of course, you fancy popping a cheeky zero
:09:38. > :09:41.No, I don't think Strictly Come Dancing is for me.
:09:42. > :09:47.Well, you tell Mr Balls he has just lost your programme one viewer.
:09:48. > :09:55.I might have nothing to do these days but, realistically,
:09:56. > :10:12.Well, that wasn't Nigel Farage. It is a BBC comedy on tonight. Nigel
:10:13. > :10:16.Farage gets his life back. A number of runners and riders. Let's come
:10:17. > :10:21.straight down to it. Who would be the next leader of Ukip? Probably
:10:22. > :10:28.Paul Nuttall. He is the favourite. The one who has the backing, not
:10:29. > :10:35.very enthusiastic backing, is Rahim Cassandra. And also Aaron Banks a
:10:36. > :10:42.big donor. The best of a rather weak lot. I think Paul Nuttall should
:10:43. > :10:53.squeak through. I interviewed all three of them this week. Mr
:10:54. > :10:57.Cassandra is a lively character and he knows how to make a few
:10:58. > :11:01.headlines. With a bit of money behind him, anything is possible.
:11:02. > :11:11.This is a guy who has been to the States, who has literally studied
:11:12. > :11:15.what Trump has done. Pees on secondment for the time being. The
:11:16. > :11:21.guy who is his line manager is one of Donald Trump's campaign stop He
:11:22. > :11:26.is extraordinarily right-wing. I am told he kept a picture of Enoch
:11:27. > :11:37.Powell by his bed. Barry Goldwater is one of his heroes, for example.
:11:38. > :11:44.There are other candidates. I would suggest, put out as a hypothesis,
:11:45. > :11:49.Paul Nuttall is Labour's worst nightmare. They are more vulnerable
:11:50. > :11:51.in the North. Paul Nuttall is from Merseyside, a working-class
:11:52. > :11:56.background, performs well on television. He is a really good
:11:57. > :12:01.interviewee. He is one of the best around in politics at the moment.
:12:02. > :12:05.However, I think whoever gets it has a massive task. The clip of this
:12:06. > :12:12.Nigel Farage satire partly shows why. His dominance was overwhelming.
:12:13. > :12:17.He, in many ways, did a brilliant job at keeping the show on the road.
:12:18. > :12:22.The trouble for all new political parties is keeping it going is
:12:23. > :12:26.tough. A very different party, the SDP, with all those glamorous
:12:27. > :12:30.figures in it, lasted eight years, something like that. I think they
:12:31. > :12:33.are in real trouble at the moment because of the implosion we have
:12:34. > :12:39.been seeing in front of our eyes and the ideal -- ideological splits
:12:40. > :12:48.Whoever gets it will face a tough tussle. All three of the main
:12:49. > :12:53.contenders want to put Nigel Farage in the House of Lords. They were
:12:54. > :12:56.falling over themselves to soak up two farads. That is how you win this
:12:57. > :13:02.election. Mr Aaron Banks, who is he putting
:13:03. > :13:08.his money on? He said he supports Rahim. I know Mr Banks is utterly
:13:09. > :13:11.fed with the shenanigans in Ukip. He thinks it is terribly disorganised,
:13:12. > :13:15.dysfunctional and doesn't want a great deal to do with it for the
:13:16. > :13:19.foreseeable future. It is not quite Trump the Clinton
:13:20. > :13:25.but it is interesting. That is it. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow.
:13:26. > :13:30.And all of next week. Jo Coburn will be your next Sunday because I am off
:13:31. > :13:35.to the United States to begin to rehearse presenting the BBC's US
:13:36. > :13:38.election night coverage on the th of November. It will be here on BBC
:13:39. > :13:39.One, BBC world, BBC News Channel and BBC
:13:40. > :13:41.online. Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:42. > :13:47.it's the Sunday Politics.