:00:37. > :00:40.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:44.Was Fidel Castro a revolutionary hero or a murderous dictator?
:00:45. > :00:49.After the Cuban leader's death, politicians divide over his legacy.
:00:50. > :00:53.Can the NHS in England find billions of pounds' worth of efficiency
:00:54. > :00:59.The Shadow Health Secretary joins me live.
:01:00. > :01:01.Should we have a second Brexit referendum on the terms
:01:02. > :01:06.of the eventual withdrawal deal that's struck with the EU?
:01:07. > :01:08.Former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown and former Conservative cabinet
:01:09. > :01:32.minister Owen Paterson go head-to-head.
:01:33. > :01:35.And with me, Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.
:01:36. > :01:38.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme
:01:39. > :01:44.Political leaders around the world have been reacting to the news
:01:45. > :01:47.of the death of Fidel Castro, the Cuban revolutionary who came
:01:48. > :01:50.to power in 1959 and ushered in a Marxist revolution.
:01:51. > :01:56.Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson described the former leader
:01:57. > :01:59.as an "historic if controversial figure" and said his death marked
:02:00. > :02:03.Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said Castro was "a champion of social
:02:04. > :02:05.justice" who had "seen off a lot of US presidents"
:02:06. > :02:10.President-elect Donald Trump described the former Cuban leader
:02:11. > :02:13.as a "brutal dictator", adding that he hoped his death
:02:14. > :02:16.would begin a new era "in which the wonderful Cuban people
:02:17. > :02:21.finally live in the freedom they so richly deserve".
:02:22. > :02:23.Meanwhile, the President of the European Commission,
:02:24. > :02:26.Jean-Claude Juncker, said the controversial leader
:02:27. > :02:29.was "a hero for many" but "his legacy will be judged
:02:30. > :02:44.I guess we had worked that out ourselves. What do you make of the
:02:45. > :02:48.reactions so far across the political divide? Predictable. And I
:02:49. > :02:56.noticed that Jeremy Corbyn has come in for criticism for his tribute to
:02:57. > :03:00.Castro. But I think it was the right thing for him to do. We all know he
:03:01. > :03:04.was an admirer. He could have sat there for eight hours in his house,
:03:05. > :03:07.agonising over some bland statement which didn't alienate the many
:03:08. > :03:11.people who want to wade into attacked Castro. It would have been
:03:12. > :03:16.inauthentic and would have just added to the sort of mainstream
:03:17. > :03:19.consensus, and I think he was right to say what he believed in this
:03:20. > :03:25.respect. Elsewhere, it has been wholly predictable that there would
:03:26. > :03:31.be this device, because he divided opinion in such an emotive way.
:03:32. > :03:34.Steve, I take your point about authenticity and it might have
:03:35. > :03:40.looked a bit lame for Jeremy Corbyn to pretend that he had no affection
:03:41. > :03:44.for Fidel Castro at all, but do you think he made a bit of an error
:03:45. > :03:48.dismissing Castro's record, the negative side of it as just a floor?
:03:49. > :03:55.He could have acknowledged in more elaborate terms the huge costs. He
:03:56. > :03:58.wanted to go on about the health and education, which if you actually
:03:59. > :04:01.look up the indices on that, they are good relative to other
:04:02. > :04:08.countries. But they have come at such a huge cost. He was not a
:04:09. > :04:11.champion of criminal justice. If he had done that, it would have been
:04:12. > :04:18.utterly inauthentic. He doesn't believe it. And he would have
:04:19. > :04:22.thought there would be many other people focusing on all the epic
:04:23. > :04:28.failings. So he focused on what he believed. There are times when
:04:29. > :04:33.Corbyn's prominence in the media world now as leader widens the
:04:34. > :04:40.debate in an interesting and important way. I am not aware of any
:04:41. > :04:52.criticisms that Mr Corbyn has ever announced about Mr Castro. There
:04:53. > :04:55.were four words in his statement yesterday which is spin doctor would
:04:56. > :05:04.have forced him to say, for all his flaws. He was on this Cuban
:05:05. > :05:09.solidarity committee, which didn't exist to criticise Castro. It
:05:10. > :05:12.existed to help protect Castro from those, particularly the Americans,
:05:13. > :05:17.who were trying to undermine him. And Corbyn made a big deal yesterday
:05:18. > :05:22.saying he has always called out human rights abuses all over the
:05:23. > :05:27.world. But he said that in general, I call out human rights abuses. He
:05:28. > :05:34.never said, I have called out human rights abuses in Cuba. In the weeks
:05:35. > :05:41.ahead, more will come out about what these human rights abuses were. The
:05:42. > :05:48.lid will come off what was actually happening. Some well authenticated
:05:49. > :05:54.stories are pretty horrendous. I was speaking to a journalist who was
:05:55. > :06:01.working there in the 1990s, who gave me vivid examples of that, and there
:06:02. > :06:05.will be more to come. I still go back to, when a major figure diet
:06:06. > :06:11.and you are a leader who has admired but major figure, you have to say
:06:12. > :06:27.it. That is the trap he has fallen into. He has proved every criticism
:06:28. > :06:34.that he is a duck old ideologue. But he is not the only one. Prime
:06:35. > :06:40.Minister Trudeau was so if uses that I wondered if they were going to
:06:41. > :06:45.open up a book of condolences. I think it reinforces Corbyn's failing
:06:46. > :06:48.brand. It may be authentic, but authentic isn't working for him.
:06:49. > :06:55.When I was driving, I heard Trevor Phillips, who is a Blairite, saying
:06:56. > :07:00.the record was mixed and there were a lot of things to admire as well as
:07:01. > :07:04.all the terrible things. So it is quite nuanced. But if you are a
:07:05. > :07:09.leader issuing a sound bite, there is no space for new ones. You either
:07:10. > :07:15.decide to go for the consensus, which is to set up on the whole, it
:07:16. > :07:19.was a brutal dictatorship. Or you say, here is an extraordinary figure
:07:20. > :07:24.worthy of admiration. In my view, he was right to say what he believed.
:07:25. > :07:27.There was still a dilemma for the British government over who they
:07:28. > :07:35.sent to the funeral. Do they sent nobody, do they say and Boris
:07:36. > :07:42.Johnson as a post-ironic statement? There is now a post-Castro Cuba to
:07:43. > :07:46.deal with. Trump was quite diplomatic about post-Castro Cuba.
:07:47. > :07:55.And Boris Johnson's statement was restrained. The thing about Mr
:07:56. > :07:58.Castro was the longevity, 50 years of keeping Marxism on the island.
:07:59. > :07:59.That was what made it so fascinating.
:08:00. > :08:03.Before the last election, George Osborne promised the NHS
:08:04. > :08:06.in England a real-terms funding boost of ?8 billion per year by 2020
:08:07. > :08:09.on the understanding that NHS bosses would also find ?22 billion worth
:08:10. > :08:16.Since last autumn, NHS managers have been drawing up what they're calling
:08:17. > :08:19."Sustainability and Transformation Plans" to make these savings,
:08:20. > :08:26.but some of the proposals are already running into local
:08:27. > :08:29.opposition, while Labour say they amount to huge cuts to the NHS.
:08:30. > :08:35.Help is on the way for an elderly person in need in Hertfordshire.
:08:36. > :08:38.But east of England ambulance call operators
:08:39. > :08:42.they're sending an early intervention vehicle
:08:43. > :08:50.with a council-employed occupational therapist on board.
:08:51. > :08:52.It's being piloted here for over 65s with
:08:53. > :08:57.When they arrive, a paramedic judges if the patient can be
:08:58. > :09:00.treated immediately at home without a trip to hospital.
:09:01. > :09:03.Around 80% of patients have been treated this way,
:09:04. > :09:06.taking the strain off urgently-needed hospital beds,
:09:07. > :09:12.So the early intervention team has assessed the patient and decided
:09:13. > :09:25.The key to successful integration for Hertfordshire being able
:09:26. > :09:27.to collaboratively look at how we use our resources,
:09:28. > :09:29.to have pooled budgets, to allow us to understand
:09:30. > :09:32.where spend is, and to let us make conscientious decisions about how
:09:33. > :09:37.best to use that money, to come up with ideas to problems
:09:38. > :09:39.that sit between our organisations, to look at things collaboratively.
:09:40. > :09:42.This Hertfordshire hospital is also a good example of how
:09:43. > :09:49.You won't find an A unit or overnight beds here any more.
:09:50. > :09:55.The closest ones are 20 minutes down the road.
:09:56. > :09:57.What's left is nurse-led care in an NHS-built hospital.
:09:58. > :10:00.Despite a politically toxic change, this reconfiguration went
:10:01. > :10:03.through after broad public and political consultation
:10:04. > :10:07.with hospital clinicians and GPs on board.
:10:08. > :10:10.It's a notable achievement that's surely of interest to 60% of NHS
:10:11. > :10:17.trusts in England that reported a deficit at the end of September.
:10:18. > :10:20.It's not just here that the NHS needs to save money and provide
:10:21. > :10:26.The Government is going to pour in an extra ?8 billion into the NHS
:10:27. > :10:33.in England, but it has demanded ?22 billion
:10:34. > :10:35.worth of efficiencies across the country.
:10:36. > :10:37.In order to deliver that, the NHS has created 44 health
:10:38. > :10:40.and care partnerships, and each one will provide
:10:41. > :10:44.a sustainability and transformation plan, or STP, to integrate care,
:10:45. > :10:48.provide better services and save money.
:10:49. > :10:52.So far, 33 of these 44 regional plans, drawn up by senior people
:10:53. > :10:54.in the health service and local government,
:10:55. > :11:01.The NHS has been through five years of severely constrained spending
:11:02. > :11:05.growth, and there are another 4-5 years on the way at least.
:11:06. > :11:11.STPs themselves are an attempt to deal in a planned way
:11:12. > :11:17.But with plans to close some A units and reduce the number
:11:18. > :11:22.of hospital beds, there's likely to be a tough political battle
:11:23. > :11:26.ahead, with many MPs already up in arms about proposed
:11:27. > :11:30.This Tory backbencher is concerned about the local plans for his
:11:31. > :11:38.I wouldn't call it an efficiency if you are proposing to close
:11:39. > :11:42.all of the beds which are currently provided for those coming out
:11:43. > :11:44.of the acute sector who are elderly and looking
:11:45. > :11:47.That's not a cut, it's not an efficiency saving,
:11:48. > :11:56.All 44 STPs should be published in a month's time,
:11:57. > :12:01.But even before that, they dominated this week's PMQs.
:12:02. > :12:04.The Government's sustainability and transformation plans
:12:05. > :12:09.for the National Health Service hide ?22 billion of cuts.
:12:10. > :12:12.The National Health Service is indeed looking for savings
:12:13. > :12:17.within the NHS, which will be reinvested in the NHS.
:12:18. > :12:21.There will be no escape from angry MPs for the Health Secretary either.
:12:22. > :12:24.Well, I have spoken to the Secretary of State just this week
:12:25. > :12:28.about the importance of community hospitals in general,
:12:29. > :12:34.These are proposals out to consultation.
:12:35. > :12:39.What could happen if these plans get blocked?
:12:40. > :12:43.If STPs cannot be made to work, the planned changes don't come
:12:44. > :12:48.to pass, then the NHS will see over time a sort of unplanned
:12:49. > :12:49.deterioration and services becoming unstable and service
:12:50. > :12:56.The NHS barely featured in this week's Autumn Statement
:12:57. > :13:03.but the Prime Minister insisted beforehand that STPs
:13:04. > :13:05.are in the interests of local people.
:13:06. > :13:07.Her Government's support will now be critical for NHS England
:13:08. > :13:09.to push through these controversial regional plans,
:13:10. > :13:15.which will soon face public scrutiny.
:13:16. > :13:21.We did ask the Department of Health for an interview,
:13:22. > :13:24.I've been joined by the Shadow Health Secretary,
:13:25. > :13:41.Do you accept that the NHS is capable of making ?22 billion of
:13:42. > :13:44.efficiency savings? Well, we are very sceptical, as are number of
:13:45. > :13:49.independent organisations about the ability of the NHS to find 22
:13:50. > :13:53.billion of efficiencies without that affecting front line care. When you
:13:54. > :13:57.drill down into the 22 billion, based on the information we have
:13:58. > :14:00.been given, and there hasn't been much information, we can see that
:14:01. > :14:04.some of it will come from cutting the budget which go to community
:14:05. > :14:08.pharmacies, which could lead, according to ministers, to 3000
:14:09. > :14:13.pharmacies closing, which we believe will increase demands on A and
:14:14. > :14:17.GPs, and also that a lot of these changes which are being proposed,
:14:18. > :14:25.which was the focus of the package, we think will mean service cuts at a
:14:26. > :14:31.local level. Do they? The chief executive of NHS England says these
:14:32. > :14:34.efficiency plans are "Incredibly important". He used to work from
:14:35. > :14:41.Labour. The independent King's Fund calls them "The best hope to improve
:14:42. > :14:48.health and care services. There is no plan B". On the sustainable
:14:49. > :14:51.transformation plans, which will be across England to link up physical
:14:52. > :14:55.health, mental health and social care, for those services to
:14:56. > :14:58.collaborate more closely together and move beyond the fragmented
:14:59. > :15:05.system we have at the moment is important. It seems that the ground
:15:06. > :15:09.has shifted. It has moved into filling financial gaps. As we know,
:15:10. > :15:13.the NHS is going through the biggest financial squeeze in its history. By
:15:14. > :15:17.2018, per head spending on the NHS will be falling. If you want to
:15:18. > :15:23.redesign services for the long term in a local area, you need to put the
:15:24. > :15:26.money in. So of course, getting these services working better
:15:27. > :15:29.together and having a greater strategic oversight, which we would
:15:30. > :15:35.have had if we had not got rid of strategic health authority is in the
:15:36. > :15:40.last Parliament. But this is not an attempt to save 22 billion, this is
:15:41. > :15:47.an attempt to spend 22 billion more successfully, don't you accept that?
:15:48. > :15:54.Simon Stevens said we need 8 billion, and we need to find 22
:15:55. > :15:59.billion of savings. You have to spend 22 billion more efficiently.
:16:00. > :16:04.But the Government have not given that 8 billion to the NHS which they
:16:05. > :16:09.said they would. They said they would do it by 2020. But they have
:16:10. > :16:14.changed the definitions of spending so NHS England will get 8 billion by
:16:15. > :16:20.2020, but they have cut the public health budgets by about 4 million by
:16:21. > :16:25.20 20. The budget that going to initiatives to tackle sexually
:16:26. > :16:29.transmitted diseases, to tackle smoking have been cut back but the
:16:30. > :16:33.commissioning of things like school nurses and health visitors have been
:16:34. > :16:38.cut back as well. Simon Stevens said he can only deliver that five-year
:16:39. > :16:41.project if there is a radical upgrade in public health, which the
:16:42. > :16:47.Government have failed on, and if we deal with social care, and this week
:16:48. > :16:54.there was an... I understand that, but if you don't think the
:16:55. > :16:59.efficiency drive can free up 22 billion to take us to 30 billion by
:17:00. > :17:04.2020, where would you get the money from? I have been in this post now
:17:05. > :17:07.for five or six weeks and I want to have a big consultation with
:17:08. > :17:13.everybody who works in the health sector, as well as patients, carers
:17:14. > :17:20.and families. Though you don't know? I think it would be surprised if I
:17:21. > :17:26.had an arbitrary figure this soon into the job. Your party said they
:17:27. > :17:31.expected election of spring by this year, you need to have some idea by
:17:32. > :17:36.now, you inherited a portfolio from Diane Abbott, did she have no idea?
:17:37. > :17:40.To govern is to make choices and we would make different choices. The
:17:41. > :17:48.budget last year scored billions of giveaways in things like
:17:49. > :17:59.co-operating -- corporation tax. What I do want to do... Is work on a
:18:00. > :18:05.plan and the general election, whenever it comes, next year or in
:18:06. > :18:09.2020 or in between, to have costed plan for the NHS. But your party is
:18:10. > :18:14.committed to balancing the books on current spending, that is currently
:18:15. > :18:20.John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor's position. What we are
:18:21. > :18:24.talking about, this extra 30 billion, that is essentially current
:18:25. > :18:28.spending so if it doesn't come from efficiency savings, where does the
:18:29. > :18:35.money come from? Some of it is also capital. Mainly current spending. If
:18:36. > :18:46.you look at the details of the OBR, they have switched a million from
:18:47. > :18:50.the capital into revenue. Why -- how do you balance spending?
:18:51. > :18:59.That is why we need to have a debate. Every time we ask for
:19:00. > :19:03.Labour's policy, we are always told me a debate. Surely it is time to
:19:04. > :19:07.give some idea of what you stand for? There's huge doubts about the
:19:08. > :19:12.Government 's policy on this. You are the opposition, how would you do
:19:13. > :19:16.it? I want to work with John McDonnell to find a package to give
:19:17. > :19:19.the NHS the money it needs, but of course our Shadow Chancellor, like
:19:20. > :19:23.any Shadow Chancellor at this stage in the cycle, will want to see what
:19:24. > :19:30.the books look like a head of an election before making commitments.
:19:31. > :19:33.I am clear that the Labour Party has to go into the next general election
:19:34. > :19:35.with a clear policy to give the NHS the funding it needs because it has
:19:36. > :19:41.been going through the largest financial squeeze in its history.
:19:42. > :19:46.You say Labour will always give the NHS the money it needs, that is not
:19:47. > :19:51.a policy, it is a blank cheque. It is an indication of our commitment
:19:52. > :19:55.to the NHS. Under this Conservative government, the NHS has been getting
:19:56. > :20:00.a 1% increase. Throughout its history it has usually have about
:20:01. > :20:05.4%. Under the last Labour government it was getting 4%, before that
:20:06. > :20:08.substantially more. We think the NHS should get more but I don't have
:20:09. > :20:17.access to the NHS books in front of me. The public thinks there needs to
:20:18. > :20:21.be more money spent on health but they also think that should go cap
:20:22. > :20:27.in hand with the money being more efficiently spent, which is what
:20:28. > :20:32.this efficiency drive is designed to release 22 billion. Do you have an
:20:33. > :20:38.efficiency drive if it is not the Government's one? Of course we
:20:39. > :20:42.agree. We agree the NHS should be more efficient, we want to see
:20:43. > :20:49.productivity increased. Do know how to do that? One way is through
:20:50. > :20:56.investments, maintenance, but there is a 5 million maintenance backlog.
:20:57. > :21:03.One of the most high risk backlogs is something like 730 million. They
:21:04. > :21:07.are going to switch the capital spend into revenue spend. I believe
:21:08. > :21:10.that when you invest in maintenance and capital in the NHS, that
:21:11. > :21:14.contribute to increasing its productivity. You are now talking
:21:15. > :21:21.about 5 billion the maintenance, the chief executive says it needs 30
:21:22. > :21:27.billion more by 2020 as a minimum so that 35 billion. You want to spend
:21:28. > :21:31.more on social care, another for 5 billion on that so we have proper
:21:32. > :21:35.care in the community. By that calculation I'm up to about 40
:21:36. > :21:40.billion, which is fine, except where do you get the and balance the
:21:41. > :21:44.account at the same time? We will have to come up with a plan for that
:21:45. > :21:48.and that's why I will work with our Shadow Treasury team to come up with
:21:49. > :21:52.that plan when they head into the general election. At the moment we
:21:53. > :21:56.are saying to the NHS, sorry, we are not going to give you the
:21:57. > :22:04.investment, which is why we are seeing patient care deteriorating.
:22:05. > :22:09.The staff are doing incredible things but 180,000 are waiting in
:22:10. > :22:13.A beyond four hours, record levels of people delayed in beds in
:22:14. > :22:17.hospitals because there are not the beds in the community to go to save
:22:18. > :22:20.the NHS needs the investment. We know that and we know the
:22:21. > :22:25.Government's response to that and many think it is inadequate. What
:22:26. > :22:28.I'm trying to get from you is what your response would be and what your
:22:29. > :22:33.reaction will be to these efficiency plans. Your colleague Heidi
:22:34. > :22:39.Alexander, she had your job earlier this year, she warned of the danger
:22:40. > :22:46.of knee jerk blanket opposition to local efficiency plans. Do you agree
:22:47. > :22:52.with that? Yes. So every time a hospital is going to close as a
:22:53. > :22:56.result of this, and some will, it is Labour default position not just
:22:57. > :23:01.going to be we are against it? That is why we are going to judge each of
:23:02. > :23:05.these sustainability plans by a number of yardsticks. We want to see
:23:06. > :23:09.if they have the support of local clinicians, we want to see if they
:23:10. > :23:11.have the support of local authorities because they now have a
:23:12. > :23:16.role in the delivery of health care. We want to see if they make the
:23:17. > :23:20.right decisions for the long-term trends in population for local area.
:23:21. > :23:23.We want to see if they integrate social care and health. If they
:23:24. > :23:29.don't and therefore you will not bank that as an efficiency saving,
:23:30. > :23:33.you will say no, that's not the way to go, you are left then with
:23:34. > :23:39.finding the alternative funding to keep the NHS going. If you are
:23:40. > :23:45.cutting beds, for example the proposal is to cut something like
:23:46. > :23:49.5000 beds in Derbyshire and if there is the space in the community sector
:23:50. > :23:54.in Derbyshire, that will cause big problems for the NHS in the long
:23:55. > :23:59.term so it is a false economy. An example like that, we would be very
:24:00. > :24:02.sceptical the plans could work. Would it not be honest, given the
:24:03. > :24:07.sums of money involved and your doubts about the efficiency plan,
:24:08. > :24:13.which are shared by many people, to just say, look, among the wealthy
:24:14. > :24:19.nations, we spend a lower proportion of our GDP on health than most of
:24:20. > :24:24.the other countries, European countries included, we need to put
:24:25. > :24:29.up tax if we want a proper NHS. Wouldn't that be honest? I'm not the
:24:30. > :24:35.Shadow Chancellor, I don't make taxation policy. You are tempting me
:24:36. > :24:39.down a particular road by you or I smile. John McDonnell will come up
:24:40. > :24:43.with our taxation policy. We have had an ambition to meet the European
:24:44. > :24:47.average, the way these things are measured have changed since then,
:24:48. > :24:53.but we did have that ambition and for a few years we met it. We need
:24:54. > :24:56.substantial investment in the NHS. Everyone accepts it was
:24:57. > :25:00.extraordinary that there wasn't an extra penny for the NHS in the
:25:01. > :25:05.Autumn Statement this week. And as we go into the general election,
:25:06. > :25:09.whenever it is, we will have a plan for the NHS. Come back and speak to
:25:10. > :25:12.us when you know what you are going to do. Thank you.
:25:13. > :25:14.Theresa May has promised to trigger formal Brexit negotiations
:25:15. > :25:17.before the end of March, but the Prime Minister must wait
:25:18. > :25:19.for the Supreme Court to decide whether parliament must vote
:25:20. > :25:23.If that is the Supreme Court's conclusion, the Liberal Democrats
:25:24. > :25:25.and others in parliament have said they'll demand a second EU
:25:26. > :25:28.referendum on the terms of the eventual Brexit deal before
:25:29. > :25:31.And last week, two former Prime Ministers suggested
:25:32. > :25:34.that the referendum result could be reversed.
:25:35. > :25:37.In an interview with the New Statesman on Thursday,
:25:38. > :25:40.Tony Blair said, "It can be stopped if the British people decide that,
:25:41. > :25:43.having seen what it means, the pain-gain cost-benefit analysis
:25:44. > :25:49.John Major also weighed in, telling a meeting
:25:50. > :25:52.of the National Liberal Club that the terms of Brexit
:25:53. > :25:54.were being dictated by the "tyranny of the majority".
:25:55. > :25:56.He also said there is a "perfectly credible case"
:25:57. > :26:00.That prompted the former Conservative leader
:26:01. > :26:03.Iain Duncan Smith to criticise John Major.
:26:04. > :26:06.He told the BBC, "The idea we delay everything simply
:26:07. > :26:08.because they disagree with the original result does
:26:09. > :26:13.seem to me an absolute dismissal of democracy."
:26:14. > :26:16.So, is there a realistic chance of a second referendum on the terms
:26:17. > :26:21.of whatever Brexit deal Theresa May manages to secure?
:26:22. > :26:24.Lib Dem party leader Tim Farron has said, "We want to respect
:26:25. > :26:28.the will of the people and that means they must have their say
:26:29. > :26:31.in a referendum on the terms of the deal."
:26:32. > :26:34.But the Lib Dems have just eight MPs - they'll need Labour support
:26:35. > :26:40.One ally is former Labour leadership candidate Owen Smith.
:26:41. > :26:43.He backs the idea of a second referendum.
:26:44. > :26:46.But yesterday the party's deputy leader, Tom Watson, said that,
:26:47. > :26:49."Unlike the Lib Dem Brexit Deniers, we believe in respecting
:26:50. > :26:57.To discuss whether or not there should be a second referendum
:26:58. > :27:00.on the terms of the Brexit deal, I've been joined by two
:27:01. > :27:03.In Somerset is the former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown,
:27:04. > :27:05.and in Shropshire is the former Conservative cabinet minister
:27:06. > :27:17.Paddy Ashdown, let me come to you first. When the British people have
:27:18. > :27:23.spoken, you do what they command, either you believe in democracy or
:27:24. > :27:29.you don't. When democracy speaks, we obey. Your words on the night of the
:27:30. > :27:33.referendum, what's changed? Nothing has changed, Andrew, that's what I
:27:34. > :27:37.said and what I still believe in. The British people have spoken, we
:27:38. > :27:44.will not block Parliament debating the Brexit decision, Article 50, but
:27:45. > :27:50.we will introduce an amendment to say that we need to consult the
:27:51. > :27:58.British people, not about if we go out but what destination we would
:27:59. > :28:02.then achieve. There is a vast difference in ordinary people's
:28:03. > :28:06.lives between the so-called hard Brexit and soft Brexit. Soft Brexit,
:28:07. > :28:10.you remain in the single market, you have to accept and agree on
:28:11. > :28:19.immigration. Hard Brexit you are out of the single market, we have many
:28:20. > :28:24.fewer jobs... Why didn't you say before the referendum there would be
:28:25. > :28:29.a second referendum on the terms? Forgive me, I said it on many
:28:30. > :28:34.occasions, you may not have covered it, Andrew, but that's a different
:28:35. > :28:38.thing. In every speech I gave I said this, and this has proved to be
:28:39. > :28:41.true, since those who recommended Brexit refused to tell us the
:28:42. > :28:46.destination they were recommending, they refuse to give any detail about
:28:47. > :28:51.the destination, if we did vote to go out, it would probably be
:28:52. > :28:55.appropriate to decide which destination, hard Brexit or soft
:28:56. > :28:59.Brexit we go to. They deliberately obscure that because it made it more
:29:00. > :29:05.difficult to argue the case. It wasn't part of the official campaign
:29:06. > :29:10.but let me come to Owen Paterson. What's wrong with a referendum on
:29:11. > :29:13.the terms of the deal? We voted to leave but we don't really know on
:29:14. > :29:17.what conditions we leave so what's wrong with negotiating the deal and
:29:18. > :29:25.putting that deal to the British people? This would be a ridiculous
:29:26. > :29:29.idea, it would be a complete gift to the EU negotiators to go for an
:29:30. > :29:34.impossibly difficult deal because they want to do everything to make
:29:35. > :29:39.sure that Brexit does not go through. This nonsense idea of hard
:29:40. > :29:43.Brexit and soft Brexit, it was never discussed during the referendum
:29:44. > :29:48.campaign. We made it clear we wanted to take back control, that means
:29:49. > :29:52.making our own laws, raising and spending the money agreed by elected
:29:53. > :29:56.politicians, getting control of our own borders back, and getting
:29:57. > :30:00.control of our ability to do trade deals around the world. That was
:30:01. > :30:06.clear at all stages of the referendum. We got 17.4 million
:30:07. > :30:11.votes, the biggest vote in history for any issue, that 52%, 10% more
:30:12. > :30:16.than John Major got and he was happy with his record number of 14
:30:17. > :30:20.million, more than Tony Blair got, which was 43%, so we have a very
:30:21. > :30:25.clear mandate. Time and again people come up to me and say when are we
:30:26. > :30:28.going to get on with this. The big problem is uncertainty. We want to
:30:29. > :30:31.trigger Article 50, have the negotiation and get to a better
:30:32. > :30:41.place. OK, I need to get a debate going.
:30:42. > :30:44.Paddy Ashdown, the EU doesn't want us to leave. If they knew there was
:30:45. > :30:47.going to be a second referendum, surely there was going to be a
:30:48. > :30:49.second referendum, surely their incentive would be to give us the
:30:50. > :30:54.worst possible deal would vote against it would put us in a
:30:55. > :30:58.ridiculous negotiating position. On the contrary, the government could
:30:59. > :31:01.go and negotiate with the European Union and anyway, the opinion of the
:31:02. > :31:05.European Union is less important than the opinion of the British
:31:06. > :31:10.people. It seems to me that Owen Paterson made the case for me
:31:11. > :31:16.precisely. They refuse to discuss what kind of destination. Britain
:31:17. > :31:19.voted for departure, but not a destination. Because Owen Paterson
:31:20. > :31:24.and his colleagues refused to discuss what their model was. So the
:31:25. > :31:27.range of options here and the impact on the people of Britain is huge.
:31:28. > :31:31.There is nothing to stop the government going to negotiate,
:31:32. > :31:36.getting the best deal it can and go into the British people and saying,
:31:37. > :31:44.this is the deal, guys, do you agree? Owen Paterson? It is simple.
:31:45. > :31:51.The British people voted to leave. We voted to take back control of our
:31:52. > :31:54.laws, our money, our borders. But most people don't know the shape of
:31:55. > :32:01.what the deal would be. So why not have a vote on it? Because it would
:32:02. > :32:06.be a gift to the EU negotiators to drive the worst possible deal in the
:32:07. > :32:10.hope that it might be chucked out with a second referendum. The
:32:11. > :32:17.biggest danger is the uncertainty. We have the biggest vote in British
:32:18. > :32:20.history. You have said all that. It was your side that originally
:32:21. > :32:26.proposed a second referendum. The director of Leave said, there is a
:32:27. > :32:32.strong democratic case for a referendum on what the deal looks
:32:33. > :32:43.like. Your side. Come on, you are digging up a blog from June of 2015.
:32:44. > :32:51.He said he had not come to a conclusion. He said it is a distinct
:32:52. > :32:55.possibility. No senior members of the campaign said we would have a
:32:56. > :32:59.second referendum. It is worth chucking Paddy the quote he gave on
:33:00. > :33:03.ITV news, whether it is a majority of 1% or 20%, when the British
:33:04. > :33:10.people have spoken, you do what they command. People come up to me and
:33:11. > :33:19.keep asking, when are you going to get on with it? What do you say to
:33:20. > :33:22.that, Paddy Ashdown? Owen Paterson has obviously not been paying
:33:23. > :33:33.attention. You ask me that question at the start. Owen and his kind have
:33:34. > :33:36.to stick to the same argument. During the referendum, when we said
:33:37. > :33:42.that the Europeans have it in their interest to picket tough for us,
:33:43. > :33:46.they would suffer as well. And that has proved to be right. The European
:33:47. > :33:52.Union does not wish to hand as a bad deal, because they may suffer in the
:33:53. > :34:04.process. We need the best deal for both sides. I can't understand why
:34:05. > :34:07.Owen is now reversing that argument. Here is the question I am going to
:34:08. > :34:16.ask you. If we have a second referendum on the deal and we vote
:34:17. > :34:27.by a very small amount, by a sliver, to stay in, can we then make it
:34:28. > :34:32.best-of-3? No, Andrew! Vince Cable says he thinks if you won, he would
:34:33. > :34:37.have to have a decider. You will have to put that income tax, because
:34:38. > :34:45.I don't remember when he said that. -- you have to put that in context.
:34:46. > :34:51.Independent, 19th of September. That is a decision on the outcome. The
:34:52. > :34:56.central point is that the British people voted for departure, not a
:34:57. > :35:01.destination. In response to the claim that this is undemocratic, if
:35:02. > :35:06.it is democratic to have one referendum, how can it be
:35:07. > :35:09.undemocratic to have two? Owen Paterson, the British government, on
:35:10. > :35:13.the brink of triggering article 50, cannot tell us if we will remain
:35:14. > :35:19.members of the single market, if we will remain members of the customs
:35:20. > :35:24.union. From that flows our ability to make trade deals, our attitude
:35:25. > :35:27.towards freedom of movement and the rest of it. Given that the
:35:28. > :35:30.government can't tell us, it is clear that the British people have
:35:31. > :35:36.no idea what the eventual shape will be. That is surely the fundamental
:35:37. > :35:43.case for a second referendum. Emphatically not. They have given a
:35:44. > :35:50.clear vote. That vote was to take back control. What the establishment
:35:51. > :35:53.figures like Paddy should recognise is the shattering damage it would do
:35:54. > :36:00.to the integrity of the whole political process if this was not
:36:01. > :36:04.delivered. People come up to me, as I have said for the third time now,
:36:05. > :36:09.wanting to know when we will get article 50 triggered. Both people
:36:10. > :36:14.who have voted to Remain and to Leave. If we do not deliver this, it
:36:15. > :36:18.will be disastrous for the reputation and integrity of the
:36:19. > :36:26.whole political establishment. Let me put that you Paddy Ashdown. It is
:36:27. > :36:30.very Brussels elite - were ask your question but if we don't like the
:36:31. > :36:38.answer, we will keep asking the question. Did it with the Irish and
:36:39. > :36:45.French. It is... It would really anger the British people, would it
:36:46. > :36:49.not? That is an interesting question, Andrew. I don't think it
:36:50. > :36:52.would. All the evidence I see in public meetings I attended, and I
:36:53. > :36:55.think it is beginning to show in the opinion polls, although there hasn't
:36:56. > :36:59.been a proper one on this yet, I suspect there is a majority in
:37:00. > :37:02.Britain who would wish to see a second referendum on the outcome.
:37:03. > :37:07.They take the same view as I do. What began with an open democratic
:37:08. > :37:11.process cannot end with a government stitch up. Contrary to what Owen
:37:12. > :37:19.suggests, there is public support for this. And far from damaging the
:37:20. > :37:23.government and the political class, it showed that we are prepared to
:37:24. > :37:32.listen. We shall see. Paddy Ashdown, have you eaten your hat yet? Andrew,
:37:33. > :37:37.as you well know, I have eaten five hats. You cannot have a second
:37:38. > :37:40.referendum until you eat your hat on my programme. We will leave it
:37:41. > :37:48.there. Paddy Ashdown and Owen Paterson, thank you much. I have
:37:49. > :37:51.eaten a hat on your programme. I don't remember!
:37:52. > :37:53.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:54. > :38:14.hello, coming up on the Sunday in Scotland, who leave us now
:38:15. > :38:16.hello, coming up on the Sunday Politics in the south-west. The
:38:17. > :38:21.Chancellor has given ?1 million for the restoration of this old market,
:38:22. > :38:25.but has his Autumn Statement -- hopes for more than 1000 new jobs in
:38:26. > :38:30.the region? For the next 20 minutes enjoined by Conservative MP Gary
:38:31. > :38:34.Streeter and Labour MEP clear midi. Welcome back. The tautness MP Sarah
:38:35. > :38:36.Woollaston, chair of the health search committee, attacked the
:38:37. > :38:40.government for its decision not to increase social care funding in the
:38:41. > :38:46.Autumn Statement. With four Cornish care homes at the centre of a BBC
:38:47. > :38:49.panorama investigation this week, the Prime Minister was asked what
:38:50. > :38:58.she was doing to improve standards of care. Let us look at what the
:38:59. > :39:05.Labour Party did in their 13 years. They said they would deal with
:39:06. > :39:13.social care in the 1997 manifesto, introduced a Royal commission in
:39:14. > :39:19.1999, a Green paper in 2005, said they sort it in 2007, and another
:39:20. > :39:24.green paper in 2009. 13 years and they did nothing. Clear, she went on
:39:25. > :39:29.to say this Conservative government is actually doing things like
:39:30. > :39:36.introducing social care premiums. We saw in the last government that they
:39:37. > :39:42.were effectively ?4.9 billion worth of cuts to social care. So the point
:39:43. > :39:50.of getting social care right is the joined up nature. Everybody has
:39:51. > :39:54.talked about it for years. Yes, the question was what is being done, and
:39:55. > :39:57.it is much more that needs to be done to Pool B services together.
:39:58. > :40:02.saw from the investigation into saw from the investigation into
:40:03. > :40:07.those care homes in Cornwall, not only the problems that add existing
:40:08. > :40:12.system, but also the human outcomes of those problems. And that is why
:40:13. > :40:15.it is vital the government does more to address this. Did you shower
:40:16. > :40:25.Sarah Wallace and's disappointment there was not something significant
:40:26. > :40:29.on it? -- Wollaston. This has been talked about for the last two
:40:30. > :40:34.decades, and sciences enabling more babies to stay alive than ever
:40:35. > :40:38.before, often with serious medical issues. Lots of elderly people
:40:39. > :40:42.living on, needing medical attention. The cost of health and
:40:43. > :40:48.social peer is going up every year, and we have not yet found the right
:40:49. > :40:51.formula to meet the rise in demand. On Tuesday, the report commissioned
:40:52. > :40:58.by David Cameron on the feature of the region -- future of the region's
:40:59. > :41:03.railway, it is a big wish list with a big price tag attached. Attention
:41:04. > :41:08.will now be focused on the MPs in the region to see if and when they
:41:09. > :41:12.deliver. It is nearly three years since
:41:13. > :41:17.storms left the rail line at Dawlish dangling in midair. But this week
:41:18. > :41:21.there was a sense of deja vu. Once again the region's rail links are
:41:22. > :41:25.cut off from the rest of the country. Flooding here at Paoli
:41:26. > :41:31.Bridge means trains are not able to run between Devon and Somerset. We
:41:32. > :41:37.are four beaks into winter, it is a bit ridiculous, what will happen?
:41:38. > :41:42.They are not spending enough on infrastructure in this country. That
:41:43. > :41:45.is never anything proactive done, it is always reactive. Passengers
:41:46. > :41:49.should then be pleased that Council and business leaders presented their
:41:50. > :41:52.case for more rail investment to ministers in London this week. But
:41:53. > :42:02.for the peninsula rail task force, which should have been a Railtrack,
:42:03. > :42:07.ended up being a road trip instead. They will be doing ?2.5 billion
:42:08. > :42:11.worth of improvements, an alternative -- including an
:42:12. > :42:18.alternative route at Okehampton, and ?1.5 billion to knock 40 minutes off
:42:19. > :42:23.the journey time to Penzance. Yesterday the peninsula rail task
:42:24. > :42:25.force launched its report which was commissioned following the storm
:42:26. > :42:29.severing Devon and Cornwall Police might vital rail link. Minutes
:42:30. > :42:34.before the Autumn Statement, the Prime Minister raised hopes that the
:42:35. > :42:36.money could be forthcoming. Can I ask he exercises a little more
:42:37. > :42:42.patience and listens very carefully to what my right honourable friend
:42:43. > :42:48.the Chancellor says? But after that build-up, the Chancellor had nothing
:42:49. > :42:52.new to say. MPs were left clinging to the ?10 million for a Dawlish
:42:53. > :42:57.study that they had already been promised the week before. It is up
:42:58. > :43:02.to the Tory MPs to find their backbone and start fighting hard
:43:03. > :43:07.ball. Not just nice words and saying yes, please. Why do they keep voting
:43:08. > :43:11.tens of billions of pounds for HS2 going up north, when we do not even
:43:12. > :43:16.have railway system equal to the 20th century, let alone the 21st?
:43:17. > :43:19.The challenge they face is that passenger numbers are much higher in
:43:20. > :43:26.other parts of the country. Saudi government more than incentive to
:43:27. > :43:31.invest in the South East and North West, where the population density
:43:32. > :43:34.is greater. Also, it is not always clear whether rail provides the
:43:35. > :43:38.quickest service for the region's passengers. A study into the
:43:39. > :43:42.disruption caused by the closure of the line at Dawlish struggled to
:43:43. > :43:47.find businesses that suffered because of it. We tend to use
:43:48. > :43:52.passenger surveys asking them about the extent to which their journeys
:43:53. > :43:56.have been elongated, whether they have actually cancelled any of the
:43:57. > :44:01.journeys they have done. It has been difficult in the Dawlish case
:44:02. > :44:05.because on certain occasions the real replacement services are
:44:06. > :44:10.slightly faster than traditional rail. It will be at least two years
:44:11. > :44:15.before flood protection work at Cowley Bridge meanwhile the
:44:16. > :44:21.consultation on schemes to protect Dawlish from the elements continues.
:44:22. > :44:24.But this week the Torbay MP Kevin Foster admitted that a government
:44:25. > :44:31.commitment to fund improvements could be two years further down the
:44:32. > :44:36.line. Gary, a statement which was heavily
:44:37. > :44:40.trailed to be all about infrastructure, which it was if you
:44:41. > :44:44.live in Birmingham, Leeds, but nothing for the south-west. The 20
:44:45. > :44:50.year plan was only handed in to government on the Tuesday. But that
:44:51. > :44:54.timing was delivered it, just before the Autumn Statement. Yes, but no
:44:55. > :45:00.one expected the Autumn Statement to respond to it 24 hours later. We got
:45:01. > :45:04.extra money for infrastructure spending, and we have got to make
:45:05. > :45:07.sure we get our fair shower here in the south-west, but now we have a
:45:08. > :45:12.plan. We are saying to government that we know exactly what we want,
:45:13. > :45:17.and it is now time to stand and deliver. Lobbying over the next six
:45:18. > :45:22.and 12 months it will be fierce. The Transport Secretary is coming out to
:45:23. > :45:29.the region next Friday. He will be fiercely lobbied by me and others,
:45:30. > :45:34.and the narrative needs to be told. We have got to start again, but we
:45:35. > :45:38.will. You have indicated in the past that you might vote against HS2.
:45:39. > :45:43.When does that cut-off tipping point come? I will do whatever it takes to
:45:44. > :45:47.get our fair shower of funding to increment the 20 year plan. I am on
:45:48. > :45:52.record for saying that and I will deliver on its. I am not sure we
:45:53. > :45:55.need to vote on HS2 ever again. The legislation has gone through, they
:45:56. > :45:59.are now just getting on with the planning and building of it. I can
:46:00. > :46:03.promise you my highest commitment between now and the next general
:46:04. > :46:06.election in four years is to make sure we deliver on promises and
:46:07. > :46:13.commitments to getting a 21st century rail link for the
:46:14. > :46:15.south-west. Then is lobbying on this as a local MP. But there is no
:46:16. > :46:27.evidence that a Labour government would be delivering on this. -- Ben.
:46:28. > :46:30.It is up to the Tory Government. I was pushing for this as well because
:46:31. > :46:37.there was a commitment from labour around some of the rail
:46:38. > :46:43.infrastructure. But the point being, I hope Gary gets his way because we
:46:44. > :46:48.have seen too often, yes, whichever government is in, the infrastructure
:46:49. > :46:52.of the south-west has come second to the infrastructure that people talk
:46:53. > :47:01.about for up north in the country. And we desperately need to be
:47:02. > :47:08.prioritised. The fact that people have to drive up to present a rail
:47:09. > :47:12.plan is just a sad indictment of the lack of investment. In terms of the
:47:13. > :47:16.pace of this and the intensity of lobbying, we have reached the stage
:47:17. > :47:19.which is impossible to say, as it has been, we will wait for this
:47:20. > :47:24.report, wait for that report. They are all on the desk of the
:47:25. > :47:31.government now. On our debate on Tuesday, my final words where they
:47:32. > :47:41.is a time for promises, and a time for delivery. Isn't it a really big
:47:42. > :47:46.ask for the government to provide something to make sure it does not
:47:47. > :47:50.fall into the sea, and then 1.5 billion to shorten journeys beyond
:47:51. > :47:57.London? Resilience is vital, and we will get more investment in
:47:58. > :48:00.resilient issues. On-board connectivity, that is what the
:48:01. > :48:05.business community want, so they can be on their computers from Penzance
:48:06. > :48:18.to Paddington, which has got better, but it is not good enough. Reducing
:48:19. > :48:26.journey times, that is the big one. We heard about bigger populations,
:48:27. > :48:29.more passengers in other regions. Particularly for Labour, you will
:48:30. > :48:39.have your eye on the heartlands in the North and Midlands. As I say, it
:48:40. > :48:44.is about the infrastructure, the investment we need down here. My job
:48:45. > :48:51.as a Labour politician representing the south-west of England is to
:48:52. > :48:54.fight for the importance of investing in that infrastructure.
:48:55. > :48:59.Because without it, we have seen all the difficulties we have. The
:49:00. > :49:04.south-west feels something like it is a very long way away from London,
:49:05. > :49:10.and we are not taken into account. But would not have the volume of
:49:11. > :49:19.passengers on the trains and the number of voters, which is relevant
:49:20. > :49:23.because it is political. We have a lot of capability down in the
:49:24. > :49:27.region, so we have ability to do things digitally, to develop the
:49:28. > :49:31.kind of digital economy down here, but sooner or later you do have that
:49:32. > :49:36.necessity for the hard infrastructure from people to be
:49:37. > :49:45.able to get easily between centres, as well as goods, very quickly, was
:49:46. > :49:49.the Prime Minister badly briefed, she was building people up for
:49:50. > :49:55.something in the statement? Yes, she was. They got that wrong. OK. It was
:49:56. > :49:58.not just rail campaigners who were disappointed, the region's local
:49:59. > :50:02.enterprise partnerships were holding their breath to see if they would
:50:03. > :50:07.get the funding they asked for to grow the economy. It is still
:50:08. > :50:09.unclear, but it looks certain to be a poor outcome which could threaten
:50:10. > :50:16.the creation of more than 1000 new jobs.
:50:17. > :50:20.One of the few real tangible examples of where the Chancellor put
:50:21. > :50:24.his hand in his pocket and pulled out some real money for the
:50:25. > :50:28.south-west was a ?1 million investment for a new digital
:50:29. > :50:34.creative space in the old market Hall, here in Devonport. Is it fair
:50:35. > :50:38.to say this ?1 million was something of a surprise? It was, indeed. We
:50:39. > :50:44.haven't a sort of slight inkling that it might be possible, -- we
:50:45. > :50:49.had. But it was a surprise, and there was a lot of delight in the
:50:50. > :50:55.office. When it opens in 2018, the ?5 million scheme will reach space
:50:56. > :51:02.for learning, skills, events research, and the first 15 metre
:51:03. > :51:11.by and large the Autumn Statement by and large the Autumn Statement
:51:12. > :51:15.had a hollow ring to it. 191 million for growth in the region, that was
:51:16. > :51:20.just a fraction of what was hoped for. The ?191 million will be handed
:51:21. > :51:26.to six local enterprise partnerships in the greater south-west. We do not
:51:27. > :51:31.know how it will be divided, and an even split would be just under ?32
:51:32. > :51:35.million each. Of the three in a region, Dorset would not say how
:51:36. > :51:39.much they have asked for. We do know that Cornwall and the Isles of
:51:40. > :51:46.Scilly bid for ?127 million. They do not yet know what they will get.
:51:47. > :51:50.Devon and Somerset bid for ?109 million. They reckon they could
:51:51. > :51:54.receive as little as 15 to ?20 million of that. Probably about 30
:51:55. > :51:58.projects have been anticipated as part of the bigger funding pot that
:51:59. > :52:02.had been applied for. If we only going to get a lower amount of
:52:03. > :52:06.money, and this is still subject to negotiation, then it might be that
:52:07. > :52:10.we're only going to build less than ten of those, which is hugely
:52:11. > :52:16.?109 million bid for Bevan and ?109 million bid for Bevan and
:52:17. > :52:20.Somerset could have created up to 1500 jobs, but if they only receive
:52:21. > :52:26.the ?20 million they are expecting, then the new jobs figure could fall
:52:27. > :52:30.to 300. The final figure should become clear in the coming months,
:52:31. > :52:33.but business leaders here in the far south-west are worried we will get
:52:34. > :52:38.less money because councils are refusing to have an elected mayor.
:52:39. > :52:43.Secretary Sergei Javid Saint clear Secretary Sergei Javid Saint clear
:52:44. > :53:02.on a visit to the region that if there was no mere there would be...
:53:03. > :53:07.Sajid Javid. They visit Athens between what some areas receive and
:53:08. > :53:20.what others receive. Those willing to accept a, it is expected they
:53:21. > :53:26.will get more than others. -- to accept a mayor.
:53:27. > :53:29.To discuss this we're joined by John Hart, Conservative leader of Devon
:53:30. > :53:34.County Council, intimately involved in the Devon and Somerset devolution
:53:35. > :53:44.bed. All players are adamant they will not have a mayor. In refusing
:53:45. > :53:49.to accept a mayor, if you denying investment to the region, which is
:53:50. > :53:52.happening now? They are trying to finalise those local authorities
:53:53. > :53:55.that are prepared to run with a mayor. And what they are saying to
:53:56. > :54:02.them is you have got to come forward with some plans. Those of us with a
:54:03. > :54:13.strong combined authority have been told we have got to hang on, we are
:54:14. > :54:23.next in line. A few weeks ago, the meeting with the secretary, he was
:54:24. > :54:27.clear that in order to these even greater investment would need to
:54:28. > :54:33.have a mayor. But that is wanting us to join together as one unit, which
:54:34. > :54:38.is impossible. Going back to the mayor for a minute. I said to the
:54:39. > :54:42.Minister bluntly, you're talking about us having a mayor. We have 17
:54:43. > :54:48.local authorities working together closely. The amount of money putting
:54:49. > :54:53.up in front of us is not worth us arguing about. Givers the powers and
:54:54. > :54:57.we can get the job is done. On this growth fund money it seems perfectly
:54:58. > :55:02.clear that in terms of this money being awarded now, those areas which
:55:03. > :55:06.have agreed to a mayor will get better funding. We do not know that.
:55:07. > :55:11.But what we do know is that in the south-west we're getting over ?190
:55:12. > :55:18.million out of a 1.8 million pot. 500 million of that is going into
:55:19. > :55:26.the Midlands, so we are being done down. You made the point about
:55:27. > :55:31.centres of population and economic activity, and we do not score as
:55:32. > :55:34.highly as other regions. I am still optimistic that this region will get
:55:35. > :55:39.a good deal out of the growth deal. But we know the total pot, and if
:55:40. > :55:43.that is divided equally, it could be about 30 million each, which is far
:55:44. > :55:48.short. We never get everything we ask for. People were talking about
:55:49. > :55:53.15 to 20 million, a few days ago, but we will get more. But it is
:55:54. > :55:58.massively less than the pot they have asked for. And when you see
:55:59. > :56:04.what Devon and Cornwall need three quarters of the total pot. Let us
:56:05. > :56:07.wait and see. What is your view of an elected mayor, I got the
:56:08. > :56:13.impression you were coming round to the idea? Most members of Parliament
:56:14. > :56:16.saying it is a matter for the local authorities, and we have been
:56:17. > :56:20.working with them behind the scenes. An excellent bid has been put
:56:21. > :56:24.forward, and it is unfortunate that is not getting more attention from
:56:25. > :56:32.government. The minister replied during your debate, praised the MPs,
:56:33. > :56:35.but said it is not evident the unity is shared down the tree of local
:56:36. > :56:39.government. It might be worth reflecting whether that has an
:56:40. > :56:44.impact on the long-term development. We wrote one letter to the minister,
:56:45. > :56:47.I wrote a second one after the Exeter meeting. We have written a
:56:48. > :56:55.third one yesterday because there was nothing in the Autumn Statement
:56:56. > :57:00.referring to the Devon and Somerset area. We are waiting for a reply.
:57:01. > :57:05.Clear, the whole business of mayor started under Labour, and I do --
:57:06. > :57:10.ironically it is Labour councils who have been rushing to accept the
:57:11. > :57:17.government's offers, and in Conservative offices, they do not
:57:18. > :57:21.want it. I would not dream on responding on behalf of John and
:57:22. > :57:28.other colleagues. The crucial part which has been touched on is the
:57:29. > :57:34.powers that go with the position. It is the powers and the money, so
:57:35. > :57:37.being able to deliver change, what it seems with some of these
:57:38. > :57:43.proposals is there is talk about the position, but not about what the
:57:44. > :57:49.position will do for people and how the change will be affected. If you
:57:50. > :57:54.create a position with nothing behind it, you are actually creating
:57:55. > :58:08.something to fail. John, would you possibly go for this week mayor, the
:58:09. > :58:15.Bristol area has decided on? I am opposed to the concept. If we turn
:58:16. > :58:23.out for a mayor per Devon and Somerset, there would be a 10%
:58:24. > :58:31.turnout for voting time now for the regular round-up of the week. -- 10%
:58:32. > :58:35.turnout for voting. Southwest Ukip MEP William Dartmouth
:58:36. > :58:38.wades into the debate about who wades into the debate about who
:58:39. > :58:43.should be the UK's ambassador to the US. Nigel Farage is the most
:58:44. > :58:47.patriotic person I know. He would be not just the obvious appointment,
:58:48. > :58:50.but the outstanding appointment. Cornwall's air ambulance gets ?1
:58:51. > :58:56.million in the Autumn Statement. The money comes from the fines
:58:57. > :59:00.levied on banks. Torbay could get its own lottery. The council wants
:59:01. > :59:02.to set up an online drop to find things it is struggling to pay for.
:59:03. > :59:07.One ticket a week, ?1 a time, we One ticket a week, ?1 a time, we
:59:08. > :59:16.think the concept is good but simple. Should Jersey's prisoners be
:59:17. > :59:20.allowed to vote? And south-west councils are praised
:59:21. > :59:25.for protecting bees. Friends of the Earth wants others to follow the
:59:26. > :59:33.lead. We want to determine national action to ban pesticides harmful to
:59:34. > :59:38.bees. Clear, you work alongside North
:59:39. > :59:47.Nigel Farage and William Dartmouth as MEPs. Is Nigel Farage ambassador
:59:48. > :59:51.material? I don't think so. I don't think there are many people who
:59:52. > :59:59.would suggest diplomacy was at the top end of his skills. But this
:00:00. > :00:02.suggestion he does seem to have -- this suggestion he seems to have
:00:03. > :00:06.close links with Donald Trump and his entourage, that could be useful.
:00:07. > :00:10.But the job of the ambassadors to represent the British people's
:00:11. > :00:15.interests in Washington, and Nigel Farage has a very narrow base and a
:00:16. > :00:25.narrow set of interests. I do not see that he is a man, I would not
:00:26. > :00:29.want him to be representing me. It seems that pantomime season has come
:00:30. > :00:35.early this year, I do not know why anyone takes it seriously! He would
:00:36. > :00:39.be the ambassador of Outer Mongolia, but not Washington! Just before we
:00:40. > :00:44.hand you back to London, you would like to apologise for saying last
:00:45. > :00:46.week that Cheryl Murray was a fan of a new constituency crossing the
:00:47. > :00:52.Devon and Cornwall Police. She has asked us to make it clear that while
:00:53. > :00:54.she supports the government's plan for new boundaries, she feels
:00:55. > :00:56.unhappy about the change. That is the Sunday Politics in the South
:00:57. > :01:00.have got to make sure London is open. Thank you. Andrew, back to
:01:01. > :01:06.you. Is Theresa May serious
:01:07. > :01:08.about curbing executive pay? Who will be crowned Nigel Farage's
:01:09. > :01:12.successor as Ukip leader? And can the Lib Dems pull off
:01:13. > :01:40.a by-election upset in Richmond? So,,, on pay talk about the
:01:41. > :01:42.executive of what executives get compared to the average worker in
:01:43. > :01:47.the company, giving shareholders real power to vote down pay rises if
:01:48. > :01:50.they don't like them, which is pretty much what Ed Miliband
:01:51. > :02:00.proposed in the general election in 2015. Is she serious about this? She
:02:01. > :02:03.is very serious, and the Tory party probably does owe Ed Miliband an
:02:04. > :02:07.apology for trashing his ideas and 2015 and then putting them all up
:02:08. > :02:11.for votes in November 20 16. She is very serious, and this all comes
:02:12. > :02:14.back to her desperate fear that unless capitalism reforms itself and
:02:15. > :02:21.becomes more acceptable to the just about managing or even 78% of the
:02:22. > :02:23.country who are not earning vast wealth at anywhere near the figures
:02:24. > :02:30.you see in the City, serious things will happen and the political sense
:02:31. > :02:33.of trust will implode. She has already been bartered down by her
:02:34. > :02:36.own Cabinet on this. She wanted to go further and make workers on the
:02:37. > :02:44.board mandatory. They have managed to stop that. What will her fallback
:02:45. > :02:52.position be on workers on the board if she is not able to get it into
:02:53. > :02:56.some claw? We would like to have workers on the board, but whatever
:02:57. > :02:59.they do on the board there will have no voting powers on the board. When
:03:00. > :03:04.you look at what was leaked out over the weekend, that we should know the
:03:05. > :03:09.ratio of the top to the average and that shareholders who own the
:03:10. > :03:16.company should determine, in the end, the highest-paid salaries, you
:03:17. > :03:22.kind of think, what could the possible objection be to any of
:03:23. > :03:27.that? Two things. One, I agree with Tom that she is deadly serious about
:03:28. > :03:30.this agenda and it comes under the banner, that sentence in the party
:03:31. > :03:35.conference speech about "It's time to focus on the good that government
:03:36. > :03:40.can do". She is by instinct more of an interventionist than Cameron and
:03:41. > :03:43.Osborne. But she is incredibly cautious, whether it is through the
:03:44. > :03:50.internal constraints of opposition within Cabinet, or her own small C
:03:51. > :03:54.Conservative caution in implementing this stuff. Part of the problem is
:03:55. > :03:58.the practicalities. George Osborne commission will Hutton to do a
:03:59. > :04:02.report which came out with similar proposals, which were never
:04:03. > :04:08.implemented. It is quite hard to enforce. It will antagonise business
:04:09. > :04:12.leaders when she's to woo them again in this Brexit furore. So there are
:04:13. > :04:17.problems with it. And judging by what has happened so far, my guess
:04:18. > :04:19.is that the aim will be genuinely bold and interesting, and the
:04:20. > :04:25.implementation incredibly cautious. Does it matter if she annoys some
:04:26. > :04:31.business leaders? Isn't that part of her brand? Will there be problems on
:04:32. > :04:34.the Tory backbenches with it? I think there will be and I think it
:04:35. > :04:36.does matter at this sensitive time for when we are positioning
:04:37. > :04:42.ourselves as a country and whether we are going to brand ourselves as a
:04:43. > :04:44.great city of business, implementing quite interventionist policies. Any
:04:45. > :04:50.suggestion that the government can control how much the top earners
:04:51. > :04:54.get, I think would be received in a hostile way. What would be wrong
:04:55. > :04:59.with the shareholders, who own the company, determining the pay of the
:05:00. > :05:01.higher hands, the executives? Morally, you can absolutely make
:05:02. > :05:07.that argument but to business leaders, they will not like it.
:05:08. > :05:10.Ultimately, this will not come down to more than a row of beans. There
:05:11. > :05:13.was a huge debate about whether there should be quotas of women on
:05:14. > :05:19.boards. In the end, that never happened. All we get is figures. But
:05:20. > :05:26.quotas of women, for which there is a case and a case against too, that
:05:27. > :05:28.was a government mandate. This is not, this is simply empowering
:05:29. > :05:36.shareholders who own the company to determine the pay of the people they
:05:37. > :05:40.hire. There is a strong moral argument for it. Strong economic
:05:41. > :05:45.argument. But the Tory backbenchers will not like this. The downside is
:05:46. > :05:50.that this is a world where companies are thinking about upping sticks to
:05:51. > :05:55.Europe. No, they say they are thinking of that. Not one has done
:05:56. > :06:00.it yet. Others have made massive investments in this country. But is
:06:01. > :06:06.it not an incentive for those making these threats to actually do it? In
:06:07. > :06:12.Europe, bankers' pay is now mandated by Brussels. It is a vivid way of
:06:13. > :06:21.showing you are addressing the issue of inequality. I think she will go
:06:22. > :06:26.with it, but let's move on to Ukip. I think we will get the result
:06:27. > :06:32.tomorrow. There are the top three candidates. Paul Nuttall, Suzanne
:06:33. > :06:37.Evans and on my right, John Reid Evans. One of them will be the next
:06:38. > :06:42.leader. Who is going to win? It is widely predicted to be Paul Nuttall
:06:43. > :06:45.and is probably the outcome that the Labour Party fears most. Paul
:06:46. > :06:50.Nuttall is a very effective communicator. He is not a household
:06:51. > :06:56.name, far from it, but people will begin to learn more about him and
:06:57. > :07:01.find that he is actually quite a strong leader. Can people Ukip
:07:02. > :07:09.together again after this shambolic period since the referendum? If
:07:10. > :07:13.anyone can, he can. And his brand of working collar, Northern Ukip is the
:07:14. > :07:18.thing that will work for them. Do you think he is the favourite? It
:07:19. > :07:22.would be amazing if he doesn't win. His greatest problem will be getting
:07:23. > :07:30.Nigel Farage off his back. He is going on a speaking tour of North
:07:31. > :07:33.America. A long speaking tour. Ukip won this EU referendum. They had the
:07:34. > :07:38.chance to hoover up these discontented Labour voters in the
:07:39. > :07:42.north, and all he has done is associated with Ukip with Farage.
:07:43. > :07:48.But Nigel Farage is fed up of Ukip and will be glad to be hands of it.
:07:49. > :07:54.The bigger problem is money. If it is Paul Nuttall, and we don't know
:07:55. > :07:56.the results yet, but he is the favourite, if it is him, I would
:07:57. > :08:01.suggest that that is the result Labour is frightened of most. To be
:08:02. > :08:05.honest, I think they are frightened of Ukip whatever the result.
:08:06. > :08:11.Possibly with good cause. The reason I qualify that is that what you call
:08:12. > :08:15.a shambles over the summer has been something that goes beyond Monty
:08:16. > :08:21.Python in its absurdity and madness. That calls into question whether it
:08:22. > :08:25.can function as a political party when you have what has gone on. The
:08:26. > :08:33.number of leaders itself has been an act of madness. In a context which
:08:34. > :08:37.should be fantastic for them. They have won a referendum. There is a
:08:38. > :08:41.debate about what form Brexit should take, it is a dream for them, and
:08:42. > :08:45.they have gone bonkers. If he can turn it around, I agree that he is a
:08:46. > :08:49.powerful media communicator, and then it is a threat to Labour. But
:08:50. > :08:53.he has got to show that first. Indeed. The by-election in Richmond
:08:54. > :08:59.in south-west London, called by Zac Goldsmith over Heathrow. Has it
:09:00. > :09:03.turned out to be a by-election about Heathrow, or has it turned into a
:09:04. > :09:08.by-election, which is what the Lib Dems wanted, about Brexit? We will
:09:09. > :09:12.know on Thursday. If the Lib Dems win, they will turn it into an EU
:09:13. > :09:18.referendum. It seems incredibly close now. The Lib Dems are swamping
:09:19. > :09:21.Richmond. They had 1000 activists there yesterday. That is getting on
:09:22. > :09:26.for 100th of the population of the place! If the Lib Dems don't manage
:09:27. > :09:29.to win on Thursday and don't manage to turn it into an EU referendum
:09:30. > :09:37.despite all their efforts, it will probably be a disaster for the
:09:38. > :09:42.party. What do you hear, Isabel? I hear that the Lib Dems have
:09:43. > :09:46.absolutely swamped the constituency, but this may backfire. I saw a bit
:09:47. > :09:51.of this myself, living in Witney, when the Lib Dems also swamped and
:09:52. > :09:56.people began to get fed up of their aggressive tactics. I understand
:09:57. > :10:03.that Zac Goldsmith is cautiously optimistic that he will pull this
:10:04. > :10:11.one off. Quick stab at the result? I don't know. But we are entering a
:10:12. > :10:14.period when by-elections are acquiring significant again. If the
:10:15. > :10:20.Lib Dems were to make a game, it would breathe life into that near
:10:21. > :10:24.moribund party like nothing else. Similarly, other by-elections in
:10:25. > :10:29.this shapeless political world we are in are going to become
:10:30. > :10:32.significant. We don't know if we are covering it live on Thursday night
:10:33. > :10:38.yet because we have to find at the time they are going to declare.
:10:39. > :10:42.Richmond are quite late in declaring, but if it is in the early
:10:43. > :10:47.hours, that is fine. If it is on breakfast television, they be not. I
:10:48. > :10:52.want to show you this. Michael Gove was on the Andrew Marr Show this
:10:53. > :10:56.morning. In the now notorious comment that I made, I was actually
:10:57. > :10:58.cut off in midstream, as politicians often. The point I made was not that
:10:59. > :11:09.all experts are that is nonsense. Expert engineers, doctors and
:11:10. > :11:12.physicists are not wrong. But there is a subclass of experts,
:11:13. > :11:16.particularly social scientists, who have to reflect on some of the
:11:17. > :11:20.mistakes they have made. And the recession, which was predicted that
:11:21. > :11:27.we would have if we voted to leave, has gone like a puff of smoke. So
:11:28. > :11:30.economic experts, he talks about. The Chancellor has based all of his
:11:31. > :11:37.forward predictions in this Autumn Statement on the economic expert
:11:38. > :11:42.forecasters. The Office for Budget Responsibility has said it is 50-50,
:11:43. > :11:46.which is the toss of a coin. But what was he supposed to do? You
:11:47. > :11:52.would ideally have to have a Budget that had several sets of scenarios,
:11:53. > :11:59.and that is impossible. Crystal ball territory. But you do wonder if
:12:00. > :12:03.governments are right to do so much of their fiscal projections on the
:12:04. > :12:08.basis of forecasts which turn out to be wrong. They have nothing else to
:12:09. > :12:14.go on. The Treasury forecast is to be wrong. No doubt the OBR forecast
:12:15. > :12:16.will prove not to be exact. As you say, they admitted that they are
:12:17. > :12:22.navigating through fog at the moment. But he also added that it
:12:23. > :12:25.was fog caused by Brexit. So Brexit, even if you accept that these
:12:26. > :12:33.forecasts might be wrong, is causing such a level of uncertainty. He put
:12:34. > :12:43.the figure at 60 billion. That could come to haunt him. He hasn't got a
:12:44. > :12:46.clue. He admitted it. He said, Parliament mandates me to come up
:12:47. > :12:50.with something, so I am going to give you a number. But I wouldn't
:12:51. > :12:55.trust it if I were you, he basically said. I agree with you. The man who
:12:56. > :12:58.borrowed 122 billion more off the back of a coin toss was Philip
:12:59. > :13:03.Hammond. It begs the question, what does that say about the confidence
:13:04. > :13:09.Philip Hammond has in his own government's renegotiation? Not a
:13:10. > :13:13.huge amount. I agree. Philip Hammond quoted the OBR figures. He basically
:13:14. > :13:19.said, this is uncertain and it looks bad, and on we go with it. It is a
:13:20. > :13:24.very interesting situation, he said. He was for Remain and he works in a
:13:25. > :13:28.department which regards it as a disaster, whatever everyone else
:13:29. > :13:32.thinks. I have just been told we are covering the by-election. We are
:13:33. > :13:34.part of the constitution. Jo Coburn will have more
:13:35. > :13:36.Daily Politics tomorrow And I'll be back here on BBC One
:13:37. > :13:40.next Sunday at 11. Remember - if it's Sunday,
:13:41. > :14:14.it's the Sunday Politics. to signify the Africans
:14:15. > :14:18.who were here.