:00:36. > :00:40.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.A row has broken out between Number Ten and former
:00:44. > :00:46.Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,
:00:47. > :00:50.the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.
:00:51. > :00:53.I feel as though I'm one of the people that
:00:54. > :00:57.If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,
:00:58. > :01:08.It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult
:01:09. > :01:11.for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest
:01:12. > :01:15.Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.
:01:16. > :01:17.Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,
:01:18. > :01:18.but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance
:01:19. > :01:30.In the south-west, dead and evaded. and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie
:01:31. > :01:33.In the south-west, dead and evaded. The size gets a powerful mayor, will
:01:34. > :01:48.the North be think of it as an early Christmas
:01:49. > :01:51.present from us. We guarantee you won't
:01:52. > :01:53.be disappointed. And speaking of guaranteed
:01:54. > :01:55.disappointments - I'm joined by three of the busiest little elves
:01:56. > :01:57.in political journalism. It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee
:01:58. > :01:59.and Tom Newton Dunn. So, we knew relations
:02:00. > :02:06.between Theresa May and some of her backbenchers over Europe
:02:07. > :02:12.weren't exactly a bed of roses. But signs of how fractious things
:02:13. > :02:18.are getting come courtesy of this morning's Mail on Sunday which has
:02:19. > :02:21.the details of a series of texts from one of Mrs May's senior
:02:22. > :02:24.advisers to and concerning the former Cabinet
:02:25. > :02:29.minister Nicky Morgan. Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing
:02:30. > :02:33.for a so-called soft Brexit, and has been pressing the PM
:02:34. > :02:36.to reveal more of her negotiation She's also apparently irked
:02:37. > :02:43.Downing Street by questioning Mrs May's decision to purchase
:02:44. > :02:50.and be photographed in a ?995 pair She said she had "never spent that
:02:51. > :02:55.much money on anything apart Mrs Morgan was due to attend
:02:56. > :03:05.a meeting at Number 10 this week But that invitation seems to be off,
:03:06. > :03:09.after a fairly extraordinary argument by text message
:03:10. > :03:12.with Mrs May's joint chief She texted the MP Alistair Burt,
:03:13. > :03:21.another of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,
:03:22. > :03:28.cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation and telling him to not "bring that
:03:29. > :03:33.woman to Number Ten again". The following day Nicky Morgan
:03:34. > :03:35.texted Fiona Hill, saying "If you don't like something I have
:03:36. > :03:37.said or done, please If you don't want my views in future
:03:38. > :03:51.meetings you need to tell them." Shortly afterwards she received
:03:52. > :03:56.the reply "Well, he just did. And according to the Mail,
:03:57. > :04:01.Mrs Morgan, who you'll see in our film shortly,
:04:02. > :04:16.has now been formally banned So, Tom, much ado about nothing or
:04:17. > :04:21.telling you about the underlying tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am
:04:22. > :04:24.allowed to choose both. It says something about British politics
:04:25. > :04:28.today, that this is the most important thing we can find to talk
:04:29. > :04:31.about, because the Government are not giving us anything to talk about
:04:32. > :04:35.cs especially on Brexit because they don't have a plan as we know. There
:04:36. > :04:40.is is a lot of truth that are being spoken from this row, one is that
:04:41. > :04:44.Mrs May comes into Downing Street with a lot of baggage including
:04:45. > :04:52.spectacular fall outs with Cabinet Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan
:04:53. > :04:57.being one. We heard about the row over banning children from school.
:04:58. > :05:03.She fell out with Boris Johnson, so, she then enters Number Ten with
:05:04. > :05:09.history. When you are in Number Ten you start, you cannot be
:05:10. > :05:16.controversial and my way but the high way, which is why Fiona Hill
:05:17. > :05:21.kept Theresa May in the Home Office. You need to behave differently in
:05:22. > :05:26.the top job. It is surprising Nicky Morgan hats taken such a robust
:05:27. > :05:31.line. She seemed such a gentle soul as a minister. She did, Brexit has
:05:32. > :05:36.done funny things to people. Everything has been shaken up. It
:05:37. > :05:41.reveals really how paranoid they are, I mean you cannot have a
:05:42. > :05:47.situation really in which the, in which you know, Number Ten has got
:05:48. > :05:53.realise if the Prime Minister's entire stick is her authenticity and
:05:54. > :05:57.incredible connection, which is genuine, with voters outside the
:05:58. > :06:01.Metropolitan bubble, when she chooses to wear ?995 leather
:06:02. > :06:05.trousers you have to anticipate that journalists and MPs are going to
:06:06. > :06:09.take the mickey, that is how life works, but I think they are trying
:06:10. > :06:13.to run Number Ten as they ran the Home Office, and you see that in the
:06:14. > :06:19.rows they have had with Mark Carney and Boris Johnson this week, now you
:06:20. > :06:23.might be able to run one Government department in that control freakish
:06:24. > :06:27.way but not Government will hold together for too long, if it is run
:06:28. > :06:30.in that fashion. By try doing the whole Government like one
:06:31. > :06:37.department. This is just the start, Polly, we are still several months
:06:38. > :06:41.away from triggering Article 50. We, The Tory party is split down the
:06:42. > :06:46.middle, the thing that mattered most to the nation since the last war, it
:06:47. > :06:51.is not frivolous. It may look as if it is about trousers, it is about
:06:52. > :06:57.the most serious thing. What was split down the middle? Aren't the
:06:58. > :07:02.Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used to be the outliers, it is now the
:07:03. > :07:06.Europhiles, it is not a split down the middle. They won't vote against
:07:07. > :07:11.Brexit but they will, I think exert the maximum influence they can, to
:07:12. > :07:14.make sure that it is not a Brexit, a self-harming Brexit, to make sure
:07:15. > :07:20.that the country understand, when it comes to that point, that there may
:07:21. > :07:25.be really hard decision to make, do you want a real economic damage to
:07:26. > :07:29.be done to the country, to your own wallet, in, in exchange for being
:07:30. > :07:33.able to stop free movement or is that trade off in the end going to
:07:34. > :07:39.be just too expensive? We have seen polls suggesting people are
:07:40. > :07:43.beginning to move, and not willing, a poll out now saying people
:07:44. > :07:47.wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any money at all, for the sake of
:07:48. > :07:50.stopping immigration. So if itself comes to that trade off, the people
:07:51. > :07:59.are going to need to be confronted with that choice. The Irony is, I
:08:00. > :08:03.think the Tories are in the most exceptionally strong position, I
:08:04. > :08:07.mean what is happening here is that British politics is being realigned
:08:08. > :08:14.and remade along leave and remain lines, if the Prime Minister's luck
:08:15. > :08:19.hold, the Tories are looking at being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the
:08:20. > :08:22.vote with an opposition split between a far left Labour Party and
:08:23. > :08:26.depleted Liberal Democrats, that sound like a recipe for something
:08:27. > :08:33.similar to what happened in the 1980s. You are seeing extraordinary
:08:34. > :08:38.alliances between left and right. The Scottish referendum rebuilt
:08:39. > :08:39.Scottish politics along the lines of pro independence, anti-independence
:08:40. > :08:44.and now Brexit maybe doing the same. So, rows within the Conservative
:08:45. > :08:46.Party over the price of trousers might be new,
:08:47. > :08:49.but over Europe, not so much. And this week's Commons vote
:08:50. > :08:51.on when the Government will fire the starting gun on Brexit,
:08:52. > :08:54.and what it will say about its plans before it does so,
:08:55. > :08:56.confirmed that instead of the eurosceptics
:08:57. > :08:58.being the outsiders, it's now the Remainers
:08:59. > :09:00.who are leading the resistance. While the Prime Minister
:09:01. > :09:09.was schmoozing in the gold-plated Gulf this week, back home
:09:10. > :09:12.the Commons was voting on a Labour motion forcing her
:09:13. > :09:15.to publish a plan for Brexit. Through some parliamentary
:09:16. > :09:16.jiggery-pokery, the Government basically got its way,
:09:17. > :09:19.but it did provide a platform for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs
:09:20. > :09:24.who voted to remain, We are getting somewhat tired,
:09:25. > :09:33.are we not, of this constant level of abuse, this constant criticism
:09:34. > :09:36.that we are somehow Remoaners that want to thwart
:09:37. > :09:39.the will of the people, go back on it and that we don't
:09:40. > :09:44.accept the result. I don't like the result, and yes,
:09:45. > :09:49.I do believe the people It's not good enough
:09:50. > :09:52.that these things are dragged out of the Government
:09:53. > :09:54.by opposition day motions. I'm pleased that it's happened
:09:55. > :09:57.but I wish the Government was taking Is Nicky Morgan really
:09:58. > :10:01.listening to her constituents I think I'm one of the people
:10:02. > :10:09.who stuck their head above the parapet so if you do that
:10:10. > :10:13.you're likely to attract attention, you're likely to attract abuse,
:10:14. > :10:15.but also actually levels of support. I'm having e-mails from around
:10:16. > :10:18.the country with people saying thank you for what you are doing,
:10:19. > :10:20.party members around the country saying thank
:10:21. > :10:22.you for what you are doing and saying, and I and others
:10:23. > :10:26.will continue to do that. I just think, as a backbench
:10:27. > :10:29.Member of Parliament, you've got to be there,
:10:30. > :10:31.particularly when we have a weak opposition, to ask the question that
:10:32. > :10:34.government needs to be scrutinised on before we embark
:10:35. > :10:41.on such a huge issue. Nobody comes into politics to become
:10:42. > :10:44.a thorn in their party leader's side, but at the end of the day it's
:10:45. > :10:47.such a massive issue that if you don't stand up
:10:48. > :10:50.for what you believe in, I'm not sure what the point
:10:51. > :10:56.is of going into politics. That puts her on a collision course
:10:57. > :10:59.with activists in her local party like Adam Stairs,
:11:00. > :11:01.a committed leader who accuses Nicky has promised me and the rest
:11:02. > :11:06.of our Conservative association she will be voting for Article 50
:11:07. > :11:09.and she will support the Prime Minister's timetable,
:11:10. > :11:12.and we have just got to trust that and hope that goes ahead,
:11:13. > :11:14.but there's a lot of people who think she's taking sideswipes
:11:15. > :11:16.at the Government The Conservatives are very popular,
:11:17. > :11:20.she wants to be a Conservative MP and we want to see a Conservative
:11:21. > :11:22.government being I have no idea what she's playing
:11:23. > :11:30.at, I think she just needs to get on with her job as an MP,
:11:31. > :11:33.which she does very well, Now let's head to Anna Soubry's
:11:34. > :11:37.constituency nearby to see how her stance is going down
:11:38. > :11:39.with the voters. If Anna Soubry doesn't fully
:11:40. > :11:41.back Brexit, what does Well, she's going to have a little
:11:42. > :11:46.bit of a problem because the voters, especially in this area,
:11:47. > :11:49.they voted to come out of the EU so she will definitely
:11:50. > :11:52.have a little bit of a problem. She should stick for
:11:53. > :11:54.what she believes in, but I guess from a democratic
:11:55. > :11:56.perspective she does... She has admitted the fact over
:11:57. > :12:12.and over again that she wanted to remain, but her views
:12:13. > :12:15.at the moment, even in her e-mails, depicted the fact she's
:12:16. > :12:17.anti-Brexit still. Theresa May will host her most
:12:18. > :12:22.pro-European MPs at Downing Street this week to discuss
:12:23. > :12:24.the countdown to Brexit. Although now we know not
:12:25. > :12:33.everyone is invited. And the MP leading the resistance
:12:34. > :12:39.in the Commons on Wednesday was Ken Clarke, he was the only
:12:40. > :12:41.Conservative MP who voted against the Government's plan
:12:42. > :12:44.to trigger Article 50 by the end of March and he joins us
:12:45. > :12:51.now from Nottingham. Welcome back to the programme Ken
:12:52. > :12:56.Clarke. Now, tell me this when David Cameron resigned after losing the
:12:57. > :13:01.referendum, you had to pick a new leader, which candidate did the Tory
:13:02. > :13:04.Europhiles like you put up to deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or
:13:05. > :13:11.no Brexit at all? Well, I can't speak for the others but I voted for
:13:12. > :13:16.Theresa May, I gave a notorious interview, it wasn't meant to be, I
:13:17. > :13:21.was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but somebody turned a camera on, I
:13:22. > :13:24.called her a bloody difficult woman which the Tory party probably needs,
:13:25. > :13:29.compared with Margaret Thatcher and said I was going to vote for her, I
:13:30. > :13:34.gave a vote for one of the younger ones first, but I told Teresa I
:13:35. > :13:39.would vote for her, she was the only serious candidate in my view. You
:13:40. > :13:41.voted for somebody you thought was a difficult woman, she is being
:13:42. > :13:46.difficult in ways you don't like, your side of the Tory party, you had
:13:47. > :13:52.your chance to put up somebody more in line with you, instead you shut
:13:53. > :13:56.up, so, why the complaints about it not going in your direction? I am
:13:57. > :14:00.not making complaint, it is not Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful
:14:01. > :14:03.mess, she was on the Remain side, she made a good speech during the
:14:04. > :14:07.campaign on the referendum, setting out the economic case for being in,
:14:08. > :14:11.setting out the security case for being in, which was Home Secretary,
:14:12. > :14:15.she was particularly expert in, it wasn't her fault that not a word it
:14:16. > :14:19.was reported anywhere, in the national media. Now, my views have
:14:20. > :14:23.been the same, I am afraid throughout my adult life, for the 50
:14:24. > :14:28.years I have been in politics, and my views have been the mainstream
:14:29. > :14:33.policy of the Conservative Party throughout all that time, I don't
:14:34. > :14:37.expect to have a sudden conversion on the 24th June, and I think what I
:14:38. > :14:41.owe to my constituency, and to Parliament, is that I exercise my
:14:42. > :14:46.judgment, I make speeches giving my reasons, I make the best judgment
:14:47. > :14:51.that I can, of what is the national interest. I understand that. I would
:14:52. > :14:57.be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of course that is not what I am asking.
:14:58. > :15:04.How many Conservative MPs do you think you can count on to oppose
:15:05. > :15:09.this so-called hard Brexit? Is it 40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea,
:15:10. > :15:12.because Anna, and Nicky, who you have just seen on the video who are
:15:13. > :15:16.also sticking to their principle, they are only saying what they are
:15:17. > :15:18.been saying ever since they have been in politics, probably may have
:15:19. > :15:35.more idea than me. That is three, how many more? I
:15:36. > :15:40.don't know, we will find out. We are living in a bubble in which the tone
:15:41. > :15:45.of politics is getting nastier and the reporting is getting sillier, so
:15:46. > :15:49.it is all about Theresa May's trousers and whether Boris has made
:15:50. > :15:53.some inappropriate jokes. What we need if we are going to abandon the
:15:54. > :15:57.basis upon which we made ourselves a leading political power in the world
:15:58. > :16:01.for the last 40 years and the basis upon which our economy has prospered
:16:02. > :16:05.because Margaret Thatcher got the others to adopt the single market
:16:06. > :16:11.and we benefited from that more than any other member state, so now we
:16:12. > :16:16.need a serious plan, a strategy. What is our relationship going to be
:16:17. > :16:26.in the modern world? How will our children and grandchildren make the
:16:27. > :16:30.best union they can? We need Parliament's approval of a White
:16:31. > :16:35.Paper and then start years of negotiation. This will run and run.
:16:36. > :16:39.This interview hasn't got time to run and run so let me get another
:16:40. > :16:44.question in. You seem to be quoted in the mail on Sunday this morning
:16:45. > :16:50.as saying if the Prime Minister sides too much with the heart Brexit
:16:51. > :16:53.group, she won't survive, is that your view? Yes because only a
:16:54. > :16:58.minority of the House of Commons think it is frightfully simple and
:16:59. > :17:03.you can just leave. The referendum campaign, the only national media
:17:04. > :17:08.reporting of the issues were completely silly and often quite
:17:09. > :17:14.dishonest arguments on both sides. Let me just check this, explain to
:17:15. > :17:17.me the basis... Know, excuse me, I have to interrupt because you said
:17:18. > :17:22.the Prime Minister won't survive so just explain to our viewers why she
:17:23. > :17:27.won't survive. She will be in a minority she starts adopting the
:17:28. > :17:30.views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan Smith. It's clear majority of the
:17:31. > :17:34.House of Commons doesn't agree with that and it would be pretty
:17:35. > :17:40.catastrophic if that is what we were going to do when we turn up and
:17:41. > :17:45.faced 27 of the nation state, and tell them we are pulling out of the
:17:46. > :17:55.biggest market in the world. How long do you give the Prime Minister
:17:56. > :18:02.then? If you don't think she will survive by going for a heart Brexit?
:18:03. > :18:08.I don't think she will go for a heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by
:18:09. > :18:16.David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you think Liam Fox will determine the
:18:17. > :18:19.policy of the Cabinet? Liam has always been ferociously against the
:18:20. > :18:24.European Union although he served in a government that was pro-European
:18:25. > :18:31.for about two and a half years. Does he not survive either? You're trying
:18:32. > :18:34.to reduce it to my trying to forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which
:18:35. > :18:39.I haven't got a clue whether there will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they
:18:40. > :18:47.may be ministers for the next ten years, I have no idea. Liam and me,
:18:48. > :18:50.but also Liam and the majority of his Cabinet colleagues don't start
:18:51. > :18:55.from the same place. The way forward is for them to produce a White Paper
:18:56. > :18:59.setting out the strategy on which all the Cabinet are agreed. People
:19:00. > :19:04.should stop leaking the Cabinet papers they are getting, they should
:19:05. > :19:11.stop leaking against each other, get down and do the work when they have
:19:12. > :19:17.got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry to interrupt again but we haven't
:19:18. > :19:25.got much time. We saw in our film that a number of constituency
:19:26. > :19:29.members in those areas which are strongly Remain MPs like yourself,
:19:30. > :19:34.in our case in this film it was Nicky Morgan, the constituency party
:19:35. > :19:38.members are unhappy about this. What's your message to them? Don't
:19:39. > :19:44.they deserve an MP that reflects their way of thinking? Leavers are
:19:45. > :19:54.unhappy and Remainers are very grateful. Mine don't go in for
:19:55. > :19:59.abuse... That's probably because you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I
:20:00. > :20:03.get more from Remainers. I'm a great fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan,
:20:04. > :20:07.I don't agree with them on everything, but the views they are
:20:08. > :20:11.putting forward are the ones they've always held and I think we are doing
:20:12. > :20:16.the Government to favour by saying what it now depends on is your
:20:17. > :20:23.success in agreeing a policy and then explaining to the public what
:20:24. > :20:27.you want to do. I shall be surprised if they manage that by the end of
:20:28. > :20:35.March, I think it is best to get the policy right first but we shall see.
:20:36. > :20:39.Have you been invited then, you say you are being helpful, have you been
:20:40. > :20:45.invited to this meeting in Downing Street on Wednesday for the soft
:20:46. > :20:49.Brexiteers? No, because I haven't been joining any of these groups.
:20:50. > :20:56.It's fair to say most of my colleagues know exactly what my
:20:57. > :20:59.views are. No doubt those that haven't had this kind of discussion
:21:00. > :21:06.with their colleagues before have been invited. I didn't expect to be
:21:07. > :21:10.invited. I get on perfectly well with Theresa May but I haven't been
:21:11. > :21:15.invited, but I don't think there's much significance in that. What do
:21:16. > :21:19.you think of the way Downing Street has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel
:21:20. > :21:25.sorry for women in politics. I'm glad to say men in politics don't
:21:26. > :21:29.have great lead stories about what they are wearing. Apart from my
:21:30. > :21:34.suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm not a very snappy dresser. It is
:21:35. > :21:37.tedious in these days that we still have a absurd pop newspaper stories
:21:38. > :21:54.about what they are wearing. That commenting on the Prime
:21:55. > :22:01.Minister's trousers, is it really grounds for banishment? No, of
:22:02. > :22:03.course not. Nikki and Teresa will have serious political discussions
:22:04. > :22:06.and if they want to have an argument about what they are wearing, their
:22:07. > :22:16.closest friends will advise them to keep it private. It is absurd. Given
:22:17. > :22:24.that the party appears to be deciding it has been all -- ordered
:22:25. > :22:28.to changes policies about Britain's relationship with the world, it
:22:29. > :22:33.needs to be taken seriously and this Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the
:22:34. > :22:37.serious discussion starts. Thank you for filling our vacuum this morning
:22:38. > :22:41.and of course no one would ever criticise how you dress. Of course.
:22:42. > :22:43.Now, seasoned observers will warn against reading too much
:22:44. > :22:46.into parliamentary by-elections, but they can provide a vital boost
:22:47. > :22:48.for a party leader under pressure, or provide damaging ammunition
:22:49. > :22:51.Following a disappointing result for Labour last week in Richmond,
:22:52. > :22:54.Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping for an early Christmas
:22:55. > :22:55.present at this week's contest in Lincolnshire.
:22:56. > :23:04.In Sleaford and North Hykeham, a constituency that supported Leave
:23:05. > :23:06.in the EU referendum, there was little Christmas cheer
:23:07. > :23:11.for Labour as it fell from second in 2015 to fourth place.
:23:12. > :23:13.That was at least a better performance than in
:23:14. > :23:17.Remain-supporting Richmond Park, where the party's candiate
:23:18. > :23:19.lost his deposit after attracting fewer voters than the reported
:23:20. > :23:23.number of local Labour Party members.
:23:24. > :23:29.Speaking for the Labour Party this week, MP Vernon Coaker
:23:30. > :23:33.said their policies on other major issues were "lost to an extent
:23:34. > :23:45.Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity is holding the party back.
:23:46. > :23:49.This week three frontbenchers were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy
:23:50. > :23:57.the party line and vote against a motion to begin
:23:58. > :24:00.the process of leaving the EU by the end of March.
:24:01. > :24:03.And a number of Labour MPs we've spoken to since Thursday's vote have
:24:04. > :24:06.said they fear the party now runs the risk of being squeezed
:24:07. > :24:09.by the Lib Dems and UKIP, or in the words of one,
:24:10. > :24:13."being cannabilised, eaten from both ends".
:24:14. > :24:15.To compound their troubles, a national poll
:24:16. > :24:17.released on Friday put Labour at a seven-year low, trailing 17
:24:18. > :24:24.It's still a season of joy for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters -
:24:25. > :24:26.they point to a series of victories under his leadership,
:24:27. > :24:29.including a by-election win in Tooting and the London mayoral
:24:30. > :24:35.Though neither candidate was a Corbynite.
:24:36. > :24:39.But there's a distinct lack of goodwill on the party
:24:40. > :24:41.of his critics - although having failed comprehensively
:24:42. > :24:44.to challenge him this summer, what they intend to do
:24:45. > :24:54.This morning Diane Abbott played down the significance of the
:24:55. > :24:59.results. The reports of the Labour Party's demise are exaggerated, we
:25:00. > :25:02.are the largest social Democratic party in Europe and the surging
:25:03. > :25:06.membership is down to the current leadership. We have the right
:25:07. > :25:09.policies on the NHS, investing in the economy, and as you know the
:25:10. > :25:13.Tories are fatally split on Europe. And we're joined now
:25:14. > :25:15.by the former mayor of London Ken Livingstone,
:25:16. > :25:23.and the former Shadow Ken Livingstone, in the most recent
:25:24. > :25:27.by-election Labour collapsed from second to fourth place, the one
:25:28. > :25:33.before that your party lost its deposit. What is the positive gloss
:25:34. > :25:37.on that? There's nothing new in this, where you have got seats which
:25:38. > :25:48.are solidly Tory, often voters switched to Lib Dem to kick other
:25:49. > :25:53.voters out. We have had good swings that indicate a Labour government so
:25:54. > :25:58.don't pay too much attention. It is like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour
:25:59. > :26:08.voters switched just to kick the Tories out. Don't read too much into
:26:09. > :26:12.these results, Labour did win tooting so it is OK. First of all I
:26:13. > :26:16.don't think it was a problem with the candidates in the by-elections,
:26:17. > :26:21.they did a really good job locally, but there is an issue with those
:26:22. > :26:26.residents and their attitudes to the national party, and I just think
:26:27. > :26:30.that when you have warning bells going off like that, we have to
:26:31. > :26:34.listen to what people are saying. I think what they are saying is they
:26:35. > :26:38.want an opposition party to have a plan. So yes we have got to attack
:26:39. > :26:43.the Conservatives where they are going wrong on the NHS, running
:26:44. > :26:50.headlong over the cliff for a hard Brexit, but we also need a plan for
:26:51. > :26:57.what Labour's alternative will be. When do we get that plant?
:26:58. > :27:00.Effectively you have got it already. John McDonnell has gone on
:27:01. > :27:07.relentlessly for the need for a massive public investment. For
:27:08. > :27:12.decades now under Labour and Tory governments we haven't invested in
:27:13. > :27:17.infrastructure, our roads are a disgrace, a broadband is antique. We
:27:18. > :27:21.need to be honest about this, if Theresa May can come back and say
:27:22. > :27:26.I've done a deal, we are leaving the EU, we will control our borders, we
:27:27. > :27:31.won't have to pay 350 million a year and stay in the single market,
:27:32. > :27:35.well... But that won't happen. If we are going to stumble along for two
:27:36. > :27:41.years heading for an economic disaster, that's why only eight MPs
:27:42. > :27:46.voted to leave, because they knew the harm it would do to their
:27:47. > :27:49.voters. If you have got a plan, why are things getting worse for you in
:27:50. > :27:54.the national polls, 17 points behind? If you look back, when I was
:27:55. > :28:00.leader of Chelsea my poll rating went down... But you have not been
:28:01. > :28:06.as bad since 1983 when you lost an election by a landslide. Over the
:28:07. > :28:11.next two years our economy will not grow strongly, it will limp along at
:28:12. > :28:16.best, as we get closer to Brexit it will get worse. All Labour MPs
:28:17. > :28:19.should be focusing on the economic alternative because nobody ever wins
:28:20. > :28:25.an election without a credible economic strategy. So as long as the
:28:26. > :28:30.country goes to hell in a hand basket, Labour will be fine. That's
:28:31. > :28:33.not good enough. You're not a commentator any more, you are part
:28:34. > :28:40.of the leadership of the party. It is to you. I will continue to argue
:28:41. > :28:43.the case for credibility, particularly in our policies, but
:28:44. > :28:48.the leadership cannot just sit back and watch this drift. On the Brexit
:28:49. > :28:55.situation, the Conservative manifesto at the last general
:28:56. > :28:58.election promised it would be yes to the single market, why aren't we
:28:59. > :29:03.holding them to account for the broken promise potentially they are
:29:04. > :29:07.about to do? If I had still been an MP, I would have been voting with
:29:08. > :29:12.you, rebelling, because we are not going to get any good deal to leave.
:29:13. > :29:17.Theresa May will stumble on for a couple of years trying to balance...
:29:18. > :29:21.The party policies were heard from Diane Abbott this morning is to get
:29:22. > :29:26.the best possible deal to leave. And I will believe it when it happens.
:29:27. > :29:32.So you don't believe a central part of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy
:29:33. > :29:39.has accepted the fact people voted to leave. He now said we now need to
:29:40. > :29:44.get the best possible deal and you don't think it's achievable. I
:29:45. > :29:51.don't, because why would the other 27 members give us a better deal
:29:52. > :29:55.staying outside? You've confused me, why are you such a big supporter of
:29:56. > :30:02.Corbyn with his policy you don't think it's achievable?
:30:03. > :30:09.Everybody knows we are not going to get a soft exit, so we either have
:30:10. > :30:13.the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps millions, certainly hundreds of
:30:14. > :30:19.thousands of jobs, or we have to say we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot
:30:20. > :30:23.of people have been saying that all Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is
:30:24. > :30:28.why it is going wrong, I would suggest to you, that actually what
:30:29. > :30:32.the concentration on is the Tories are unclear about Brexit, they are
:30:33. > :30:36.in power, that is what matters, a bigger problem for Labour is whether
:30:37. > :30:41.Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut through or not. I think the YouGov
:30:42. > :30:47.poll this weekend not only gave us that double punch of a 17 point lead
:30:48. > :30:52.for the Conservatives but it had a 33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa
:30:53. > :30:55.May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of the plan, think, has to be to
:30:56. > :31:00.address this leadership issue, to make sure it is also a party that is
:31:01. > :31:08.listening to the wider public and not just the small number of members
:31:09. > :31:17.or the trotsites in Momentum or whoever is the latest Marxist on
:31:18. > :31:24.the... You The thing that is ox fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour
:31:25. > :31:29.has quoted bunkum. We have has 18 months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy
:31:30. > :31:34.in the back and some in the front. The vast majority of Labour MPs have
:31:35. > :31:37.stopped undermining Jeremy. You weren't doing that well before. Can
:31:38. > :31:40.you imagine a situation in which you have elected a new leader and the
:31:41. > :31:45.first year it is all about getting rid of imand undermining him. I
:31:46. > :31:49.disagree with Tony Blair on lots of policy issue, I didn't run wound
:31:50. > :31:54.saying this man is not fit to govern. That is because you had no
:31:55. > :32:00.support for that at the time. The idea people will take lectures from
:32:01. > :32:03.Ken on divisiveness, that is like takes lectures from Boris Johnson on
:32:04. > :32:08.diplomacy, you have to make sure, yes, that we find some accommodation
:32:09. > :32:14.after the leadership election this summer, but the plan is not there
:32:15. > :32:19.right now, and you and the rest of the leadership has to be held
:32:20. > :32:25.accountable for delivering that, I want to hear what the plan is. It is
:32:26. > :32:31.FDR he told us earlier. If you have got now because as we saw in the
:32:32. > :32:34.Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio at 90%, you can't convince the
:32:35. > :32:40.public by saying we will throw more money at the problem, the public
:32:41. > :32:44.want a credible plan, where the sums add up, that you are not making
:32:45. > :32:51.promises that won't be delivered. They want that plan. We need to
:32:52. > :32:57.point out our history, when Labour Waugh the election in 45 Government
:32:58. > :33:03.debt was two times that it was now.. Now.. They generated exports and
:33:04. > :33:08.within 50 years we virtually paid off that debt. Austerity is not the
:33:09. > :33:14.way to go. Our economy is a disgrace compared with Germany. I agree. What
:33:15. > :33:18.we have to start saying, there is decent jobs, where are they going to
:33:19. > :33:22.be coming from, can we have a society based on fair play and
:33:23. > :33:25.prosperity for everybody not just the wealthy, that means saying, some
:33:26. > :33:28.time, that people have to contribute, they have to put in, so
:33:29. > :33:33.we have to listen to what the public are saying on issues for instance
:33:34. > :33:38.like immigration, as they said in the Brexit referendum, but make sure
:33:39. > :33:42.we have our approach set out clearly, so people know there is a
:33:43. > :33:49.ability to manage, and control these things, not just ignore them. Those
:33:50. > :33:58.tax dodgers who launder their money through Panamanian banks. If we
:33:59. > :34:03.crackdown on what might be 150 billion a year of tax evasion and
:34:04. > :34:08.avoidance. That is a real outlier estimate as you know, way the
:34:09. > :34:13.highest, you cannot build the FDR programme on tax evasion revenues,
:34:14. > :34:19.alone, but let me ask you. You can say to Starbucks, if you are not
:34:20. > :34:23.going to pay tax on your profits we will tax every cup of coffee. Why
:34:24. > :34:29.don't you nationalise it? I was just checking that would be the policy.
:34:30. > :34:32.Let me ask you this. By what time do you get, start to get worrieded if
:34:33. > :34:37.the polls haven't given to turn round? I mean, I think they will
:34:38. > :34:42.turn round. When do you start to get worried? If they haven't? If in a
:34:43. > :34:45.year's time it was as bad as this we would be worried. I don't think it
:34:46. > :34:52.will be. Jeremy and his team will knows can on the economy, and that
:34:53. > :34:56.is wins every election. Bill Clinton, remember it's the economy
:34:57. > :34:59.stupid. People know if you are going to spend money they want to see
:35:00. > :35:03.where it is coming from, otherwise they will think it is their taxes
:35:04. > :35:08.that will go up and the Conservative, Theresa May, will
:35:09. > :35:13.scare the British public over plans that are not properly... What do you
:35:14. > :35:19.do if things haven't got better in 12 months? We lost the leadership
:35:20. > :35:25.election in the summer but we will hold our leadership to account. What
:35:26. > :35:29.does that mean? It means asking for the plan, testing what the proposals
:35:30. > :35:36.are, are they properly credible, do they make sure that they meet the
:35:37. > :35:41.test the public... You just have to bite the bottom lip now, you
:35:42. > :35:46.privately, a lot of you think your party is heading for catastrophe. I
:35:47. > :35:51.don't think it is acceptable that we have this level of performance,
:35:52. > :35:53.currently, I am sure Ken agrees the opinion polls, and those by
:35:54. > :35:57.by-election were just not good enough. We have to show leadership,
:35:58. > :36:01.certainly on Brexit, hold the Government to account. Attack them
:36:02. > :36:06.for the crisis in the NHS, yes and on the economy, to deliver credible
:36:07. > :36:08.policy force, example on defending national security and making sure we
:36:09. > :36:14.stand up for humanitarian intervention. Final point, your
:36:15. > :36:19.party has lost Scotland. You are now in third place behind the stories --
:36:20. > :36:24.Tories. I never thought I would be able to say that in a broadcast, if
:36:25. > :36:26.you lose the north too, you are heading for the smallest
:36:27. > :36:33.Parliamentary Labour Party since the war, aren't you. But that is our
:36:34. > :36:34.weakness, we in the 13 years of the last Labour Government neglected
:36:35. > :36:39.rebuilding our manufacturing in the way the Germans have done. Millions
:36:40. > :36:44.of people used to have good job, we used to have 8 million jobs in
:36:45. > :36:48.manufacturing it is down two. It is in the north, that Jeremy's strategy
:36:49. > :36:52.has the most relevance, of actually getting the investment and
:36:53. > :36:53.rebuilding. All right. We will see. Come back in 12 months if not before
:36:54. > :36:58.and we will check it out. It's just gone 11.35,
:36:59. > :37:00.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:37:01. > :37:03.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20
:37:04. > :37:06.minutes, we'll be talking about Boris Johnson's tour
:37:07. > :37:08.of the Middle East after straying off message, again,
:37:09. > :37:10.and the protestors attempting First though, the Sunday
:37:11. > :37:24.Politics where you are. Unanimous calls this week
:37:25. > :37:32.for health bosses to be Could Devon be divided in two
:37:33. > :37:46.by plans for a new super authority? For the next 20 minutes, I am joined
:37:47. > :37:50.by Labour peer Ann Mallalieu and North Devon's Conservative MP
:37:51. > :37:51.Peter Heaton-Jones. MPs of all parties finally got
:37:52. > :37:55.to have their first vote The region's sole Labour MP
:37:56. > :37:59.Ben Bradshaw was one of just 89 MPs who voted against a government
:38:00. > :38:02.amendment on when Article 50 I cannot support the government's
:38:03. > :38:11.Amendment because it is in effect gives a blank cheque for us
:38:12. > :38:13.to invoke article 50 of us being any the wiser of
:38:14. > :38:17.the government's intentions today. And all of the signals
:38:18. > :38:24.from the Prime Minister's speech at her party conference since has
:38:25. > :38:26.been that the majority of the government wants
:38:27. > :38:29.and is heading for a hard Brexit, disastrous for jobs and prosperity
:38:30. > :38:32.in my constituency. A lot of speculation
:38:33. > :38:35.as to what the Lords might do through the Brexit process
:38:36. > :38:37.and whether they might Well, I'm a Brexiteer, which is
:38:38. > :38:49.a little unusual in my party. I'm very worried about the Lords
:38:50. > :38:52.because the noises in every debate we have recently,
:38:53. > :39:02.and one as recently as ten days ago, were that there is a large majority
:39:03. > :39:05.of people who would like to throw It is described as holding
:39:06. > :39:08.the government to account, it is described as scrutinising,
:39:09. > :39:11.but the reality is that there are people who simply cannot accept
:39:12. > :39:14.the view of the electorate, and I would like to see
:39:15. > :39:17.what I suppose you could call We might not have liked the way
:39:18. > :39:24.we are now, but now we're here we're going to make a bigger success
:39:25. > :39:27.as we can of it. And I would like to see
:39:28. > :39:30.all the parties getting behind supporting getting the best deal
:39:31. > :39:32.we can, not trying to trap the government up in trying to do
:39:33. > :39:35.a very difficult negotiation. Have you got any red lines now
:39:36. > :39:39.in this whole negotiation process, as some people have,
:39:40. > :39:44.single market, whatever that is? What I want, I suspect similar
:39:45. > :39:52.to Ann, is to get this done now. We've got to get it moving,
:39:53. > :39:57.we don't want any more in the House of Commons on Wednesday
:39:58. > :40:01.for what actually started off as a Labour motion
:40:02. > :40:03.amended by the government, but that is all complicated
:40:04. > :40:05.Westminster village type politics. What I want to know is we get on,
:40:06. > :40:09.we leave the EU, we do it in the best possible way,
:40:10. > :40:12.and I use every avenue I have got to say let's do it in the best way
:40:13. > :40:16.for businesses and families in North Relations between council leaders
:40:17. > :40:19.in Devon arguably hit an all-time low on Friday,
:40:20. > :40:21.as it emerged a small group of councils were pursuing plans
:40:22. > :40:24.for a South Devon may. of councils were pursuing plans
:40:25. > :40:26.for a South Devon mayor. Undermining the devolution bed
:40:27. > :40:29.for the whole of Devon and Somerset already agreed and submitted
:40:30. > :40:31.to the government. It coincided with the Local
:40:32. > :40:32.Government Secretary's first visit to Cornwall,
:40:33. > :40:34.to discuss its devolution deal, which he previously had been less
:40:35. > :40:37.than complimentary about. At Cornwall Council,
:40:38. > :40:40.they are getting ready for Christmas, and a visit
:40:41. > :40:43.from someone very special. Not Santa, but the Local
:40:44. > :40:52.Government Secretary. Sajid Javid caused
:40:53. > :40:53.great excitement at He spent three hours inside,
:40:54. > :41:01.discussing among other things the government's biggest
:41:02. > :41:07.gift to councils. The Local Government Secretary
:41:08. > :41:10.is due to emerge any minute now, and the question is whether he will
:41:11. > :41:13.emerge buoyant about Cornwall's growth prospects or bruised,
:41:14. > :41:15.having had to answer some tough It was Mr Javid's first
:41:16. > :41:19.visit to Cornwall. Two months ago he came to Exeter
:41:20. > :41:22.and upset Cornwall's councillors, saying they might not get everything
:41:23. > :41:28.on their devolution wish list. Anyone who wants an ambitious deal,
:41:29. > :41:30.they are going to have to have a mayor, and frankly
:41:31. > :41:33.the Cornwall one was Was Cornwall's Council
:41:34. > :41:46.as unambitious as you had feared? Actually they have some excellent
:41:47. > :41:49.ideas for future - both council leaders and businesses,
:41:50. > :41:51.who I've been meeting with today, they've got a devolution
:41:52. > :41:53.deal that is in place, and today is all about making sure
:41:54. > :41:56.how do we work together to make the most of it,
:41:57. > :41:59.how do we create more Are you still sceptical
:42:00. > :42:02.about whether or not Cornwall has I have never been
:42:03. > :42:08.sceptical about it. You said on the stage
:42:09. > :42:11.in Exeter, what was the point They are the only ones who got away
:42:12. > :42:18.with not having a mayor, but you've got to ask yourself
:42:19. > :42:22.what is the point of going down this road unless you really
:42:23. > :42:24.want to make a difference, and if you do, you have
:42:25. > :42:27.got to have a mayor. What I said is each deal
:42:28. > :42:29.is different, and Cornwall If you go to Greater Manchester
:42:30. > :42:33.they have a different type of deal. All of these deals, every one
:42:34. > :42:36.of them, are bespoke. They should be led from
:42:37. > :42:39.the bottom-up, local leaders, local businesses coming to central
:42:40. > :42:41.government and saying, if you gave us powers over this
:42:42. > :42:45.or that we could make more of it, Cornwall's councillors seem
:42:46. > :42:50.pleased by the warm words they have been given,
:42:51. > :42:52.but it is still not clear whether they will get more
:42:53. > :43:00.power without a mayor. Meanwhile in Devon, councillors
:43:01. > :43:02.do not yet have a devolution deal. They have submitted a bid that joins
:43:03. > :43:07.up the wall of Devon and Somerset, They have submitted a bid that joins
:43:08. > :43:10.up the whole of Devon and Somerset, but the councillors leading it
:43:11. > :43:13.will not accept a mayor. I spoke to the Minister quite
:43:14. > :43:15.bluntly, you're talking about us having a mayor,
:43:16. > :43:17.we have 17 local authorities working The amount of money you're putting
:43:18. > :43:23.up in front of us is not Give us the powers and we can
:43:24. > :43:28.get the jobs done. But this week we have learned that
:43:29. > :43:31.some of those Devon and Somerset councils are prepared
:43:32. > :43:33.to have a mayor. We understand senior
:43:34. > :43:34.councillors in Exeter, Torbay and Plymouth,
:43:35. > :43:37.who were signed up to the original plan, are now working on a separate
:43:38. > :43:39.devolution bed for South Devon. are now working on a separate
:43:40. > :43:42.devolution bid for South Devon. What about Devon, they
:43:43. > :43:44.are working this week on a new devolution bid,
:43:45. > :43:46.with a mayor. What is your message
:43:47. > :43:48.to the Conservative councillors I have not seen that bid yet,
:43:49. > :43:53.but I look forward to receiving it. I wanted to ask about the
:43:54. > :44:06.inter-council rivalry his preference for a mayor is causing,
:44:07. > :44:08.but like other special visitors at this time of year,
:44:09. > :44:11.he does not stick around long. Peter, I would like to cut
:44:12. > :44:13.to the chase with you, One of your colleagues,
:44:14. > :44:17.the South Devon MP, said that if this South Devon mayoral proposal
:44:18. > :44:19.went through, frankly it could be pretty disastrous
:44:20. > :44:22.for the rest of Devon, This is looking like dogs breakfast,
:44:23. > :44:37.to be honest with you. All I want for North Devon
:44:38. > :44:41.is the best possible deal. I want to make sure we do not have
:44:42. > :44:44.any more decades where we do not get our fair slice of the cake,
:44:45. > :44:47.which has happened for ages What I want is a deal that says
:44:48. > :45:00.we get fair share in North Devon, frankly all bits of Devon that
:45:01. > :45:03.are not Exeter, Plymouth and Torbay, The second thing is I do not think
:45:04. > :45:07.most people who represent in North Devon cared about all this
:45:08. > :45:10.going on behind the scenes, they want the rubbish collected
:45:11. > :45:13.on time, they want to make sure their potholes are filled,
:45:14. > :45:15.or they get the fear sure their potholes are filled,
:45:16. > :45:18.or they get the fair All of this hooha behind
:45:19. > :45:21.the scenes is a distraction. I hope we can come together
:45:22. > :45:24.but if we cannot, I am going to fight to make sure whatever
:45:25. > :45:27.is the outcome, North Devon Do you think that joint Devon
:45:28. > :45:33.and Somerset bid should now accept a mayor because it strikes me,
:45:34. > :45:35.the government has been very clear that it likes and wants a mayor,
:45:36. > :45:40.and might it be the case that the rest of Devon
:45:41. > :45:42.and Somerset keep saying no, but you have people in Plymouth
:45:43. > :45:45.and Torbay saying we're on message, we are with the government's agenda,
:45:46. > :45:48.the government might say, Cornwall got devolution without
:45:49. > :45:51.a mayor, as we heard in your report. There is no question
:45:52. > :45:54.in the world to which the answer So I am not at all convinced that
:45:55. > :45:58.another elected politician, call them a mayor or whatever fancy
:45:59. > :46:00.nameplate you want to have on their desk, I do not know how
:46:01. > :46:04.that will help me get better roads, better connectivity,
:46:05. > :46:05.better council services. Labour started the whole
:46:06. > :46:11.mayoral stuff running. But in London, you know,
:46:12. > :46:16.very much an urban thing. You're the president
:46:17. > :46:22.of the Countryside Alliance. Do you think this could work
:46:23. > :46:25.in places like rural I am very sceptical
:46:26. > :46:39.about mayors altogether. It seems to me that it is all too
:46:40. > :46:43.often a job for a politician who has And there seem to be many
:46:44. > :46:47.candidates along those lines. Boris Johnson, maybe,
:46:48. > :46:50.maybe the jury are out time that. I can see the government find it
:46:51. > :46:59.much easier to deal with one person, someone who perhaps speaks
:47:00. > :47:02.their language, but unless it is somebody of exceptional
:47:03. > :47:04.ability, I do not think I think the councils
:47:05. > :47:07.who have very good leaders, very often did a superb job,
:47:08. > :47:10.I cannot see that unless you have an outstanding and exceptional
:47:11. > :47:13.figure that a mayor is going to add anything to a local authority's bid
:47:14. > :47:16.for more money, more jobs, Money is crucial to this,
:47:17. > :47:20.it is understandable that if money is dangled before local authorities
:47:21. > :47:21.with some conditions, local authorities will be
:47:22. > :47:24.tempted to go for it. It sounded like a threat -
:47:25. > :47:27.if you don't, you will not get it. And I do not understand why
:47:28. > :47:29.there should be such pressure because it seems to me
:47:30. > :47:35.that there are not able people queueing up to do these jobs,
:47:36. > :47:37.whatever the county, and there are many councillors
:47:38. > :47:40.who know the job better than a mayor On the money front, we're just
:47:41. > :47:43.fighting for our fair share I am yet to be convinced that we go
:47:44. > :47:47.for this devolution, It may be from a different pot,
:47:48. > :47:56.but is that our fair share for areas like mine,
:47:57. > :47:58.sparsely populated, away from the South Devon urban areas,
:47:59. > :48:01.that is what I think I want to use my energy
:48:02. > :48:05.to fight for a fairer deal. Is the risk that all of this
:48:06. > :48:07.infighting, that one of your colleagues in South Devon
:48:08. > :48:10.said today, actually makes you all look disorganised
:48:11. > :48:15.and perhaps a bit ridiculous to the government, which then
:48:16. > :48:18.will disincline it to do anything? I do not think it is infighting,
:48:19. > :48:21.I think it is a challenge for all local authorities to make
:48:22. > :48:24.sure they get the best deal that they possibly can,
:48:25. > :48:30.that's what I'm doing. It is infighting, isn't it, surely,
:48:31. > :48:32.this thing we're seeing in South Devon and the rest
:48:33. > :48:35.of Devon and Somerset? They are fighting the corner,
:48:36. > :48:37.I'm going to fight mine. Devon County Council voted
:48:38. > :48:40.unanimously this week for a programme of major changes
:48:41. > :48:42.to the county's health The reforms driven by massive
:48:43. > :48:45.financial problems involve There has also been fierce
:48:46. > :48:48.criticisms about the way Back from visiting time,
:48:49. > :48:55.Russell is currently a regular at Barnstable's North Devon District
:48:56. > :48:59.Hospital. His elderly father is there,
:49:00. > :49:02.having displayed stroke symptoms, and his daughter's planned homebirth
:49:03. > :49:04.this week ended up happening On both of those occasions,
:49:05. > :49:11.they would have had to have a trip down to Exeter, which for my father
:49:12. > :49:24.would have been outside of the hour. For my daughter she was in labour,
:49:25. > :49:27.touch and go whether she had given birth in the ambulance
:49:28. > :49:37.on the way down. Seven years ago Russell's own life
:49:38. > :49:40.was saved in A having had He said his family's
:49:41. > :49:44.experiences show how having the services nearby and not 45
:49:45. > :49:47.miles away in Exeter We have the best health
:49:48. > :49:50.service in the world. And it is systematically being taken
:49:51. > :49:52.apart, piece by piece. It is just such a shame
:49:53. > :49:55.that the generations to come will not have that unless we fight
:49:56. > :49:57.for it now. Russell's not alone
:49:58. > :49:59.in wanting to fight. Campaigners have been taking
:50:00. > :50:01.to Devon's streets in recent months, challenging health bosses' talk
:50:02. > :50:04.of no red lines, amid reviews of maternity, paediatrics
:50:05. > :50:06.and emergency services in North East And feelings run very
:50:07. > :50:12.high in South Devon, when people had to be turned away
:50:13. > :50:15.from meetings to discuss plans As well as one in six beds
:50:16. > :50:24.in Devon's larger hospitals. On Thursday it was the turn
:50:25. > :50:27.of Devon's county councillors to send a message to NHS chiefs,
:50:28. > :50:30.18 months after experts were parachuted in to rescue
:50:31. > :50:32.struggling health services in the north-east and west
:50:33. > :50:40.of the county under something called a success regime,
:50:41. > :50:42.calls here for the process to be paused while the funding
:50:43. > :50:49.situation is resolved, and calls for clarity
:50:50. > :50:51.about the Devon-wide five-year sustainability and transformation
:50:52. > :50:53.plan, or STP, which There is a copy of this STP document
:50:54. > :50:57.which came out a few months ago which suggested that maternity
:50:58. > :50:59.services would be taken away from North Devon,
:51:00. > :51:02.then the latest version of the STP does not seem to
:51:03. > :51:03.mention these things. There was uproar when we saw that,
:51:04. > :51:06.and how we expect any member of the public to engage
:51:07. > :51:09.in a sensible consultation for the future when we eventually
:51:10. > :51:12.get told what the proposals are, The deficit facing Devon's health
:51:13. > :51:25.services is claimed to be ?557 million by 2020,
:51:26. > :51:28.if things do not change. At Westminster this week one Devon
:51:29. > :51:32.MP says the plans to bring health and social care together will only
:51:33. > :51:34.work if there is more We need to do it in a sensible
:51:35. > :51:45.timescale, having thought about what the options really are,
:51:46. > :51:47.rather than forcing this through by 2020, 2021,
:51:48. > :51:49.and we need some proper transition funding because if you think
:51:50. > :51:55.about it, while we all agree we can do this more efficiently,
:51:56. > :51:57.indeed the Kings fund has said that clearly,
:51:58. > :52:03.we cannot just cut things without looking at how do we then
:52:04. > :52:06.enable the new services No signs of any respite
:52:07. > :52:11.for our region's under The Royal Cornwall Hospitals Trust
:52:12. > :52:17.declared itself on the highest alert possible, with increasing pressure
:52:18. > :52:19.on A, clinicians finding let difficult to find beds
:52:20. > :52:22.for new admissions and a lack We're joined by Angela Peder,
:52:23. > :52:27.the chief executive To begin with, just to be clear,
:52:28. > :52:32.there was a suggestion in the report that there may be some confusion
:52:33. > :52:35.as to what exactly is being proposed, particularly
:52:36. > :52:46.with reference to North Devon, as we have Peter with us,
:52:47. > :52:48.what cuts are being proposed? The NHS budget has not been cut,
:52:49. > :52:52.what we have not been The proposals we are making that
:52:53. > :52:58.have been in the public domain now since February are around reducing
:52:59. > :53:00.the number of Community Hospital beds we are consulting on,
:53:01. > :53:04.and I have launched a series of reviews in respect of A
:53:05. > :53:06.services, maternity services and stroke services across Devon,
:53:07. > :53:10.and we will look at services in North Devon and everywhere else
:53:11. > :53:12.in Devon and make proposals Effectively, services
:53:13. > :53:16.like a maternity unit could go, We will review all services,
:53:17. > :53:25.there are no proposals at all, but we know there are a number
:53:26. > :53:28.of services where we do not currently meet national standards,
:53:29. > :53:31.and if we look forward we will be neither clinically nor
:53:32. > :53:32.financially sustainable, so we have got to plan
:53:33. > :53:35.for the future, think what might happen in two, three,
:53:36. > :53:37.five years' time and make sure we have sustainable services that
:53:38. > :53:45.are accessible for populations. This seems to be the message
:53:46. > :53:51.from Devon County Council, there should be pause
:53:52. > :53:56.and more reflection. We have to make progress in terms
:53:57. > :54:03.of the changes that we need to make. Some services are very vulnerable,
:54:04. > :54:06.so ENT services in North Devon had to close at very short notice
:54:07. > :54:08.because somebody left and they had to be transferred without a plan
:54:09. > :54:11.for that to take place. We have a responsibility to make
:54:12. > :54:14.sure for the public call We cannot just wait for something
:54:15. > :54:18.to fall over and say, why did we not So we have to have those discussions
:54:19. > :54:22.upfront, in an open way, And it is challenging and difficult,
:54:23. > :54:27.but they are the right We have seen a lot of
:54:28. > :54:31.people on the streets You have been lobbying
:54:32. > :54:36.strongly on this. Does this make you wonder slightly
:54:37. > :54:43.whether people are getting worried I met Angela on a couple
:54:44. > :54:47.of occasions, she has come to Barnstable on my invitation,
:54:48. > :54:50.and she is coming in the New Year to go on a tour of some of the more
:54:51. > :54:53.geographically isolated areas of North Devon, and this
:54:54. > :54:56.is the whole point of It takes 3.5 hours if you live
:54:57. > :55:00.on parts of the north coast of the constituency to get to Exeter
:55:01. > :55:03.or to Plymouth, and that is not There are no proposals and I want
:55:04. > :55:12.to make sure it gets no further. I made it quite clear
:55:13. > :55:14.to Angela I understand the need for the process,
:55:15. > :55:16.Devon County Council have come I do not think a pause
:55:17. > :55:22.is going to be possible because the sustainability
:55:23. > :55:23.and transformation plans are happening across the NHS,
:55:24. > :55:32.across all 43 regions of England. What I am saying is the process
:55:33. > :55:35.needs to be undertaken in such a way that we make sure the unique
:55:36. > :55:38.geographical challenges that we have into account, that should be
:55:39. > :55:42.the first thing on the spreadsheet, if you like, we should not just be
:55:43. > :55:45.looking at money, we should be looking at care for
:55:46. > :55:48.people in North Devon. I cannot see a way to deliver good
:55:49. > :55:51.clinical care by cutting acute I have had this conversation
:55:52. > :55:54.with Peter, and he knows I have argued nationally in terms
:55:55. > :55:57.of the remoteness of North Devon. But we have to have services
:55:58. > :55:59.that are sustainable, and Peter wants high-quality
:56:00. > :56:01.services for his But we will have to look
:56:02. > :56:04.at what needs to change, how do we work in a very different
:56:05. > :56:08.way, but that is why we need We know North Devon was designated
:56:09. > :56:19.as a trauma unit, even though it does not meet all of the standards
:56:20. > :56:21.because of the rurality OK, the rurality is something
:56:22. > :56:33.you're interested in. I suspect you'd possibly
:56:34. > :56:35.be within the remit Slightly over the border
:56:36. > :56:39.in Somerset, but I am indeed, obviously very concerned that
:56:40. > :56:41.if somebody has an accident you want to get them
:56:42. > :56:44.to a hospital quickly. But I think all political parties
:56:45. > :56:47.really need to change their approach The National Health service
:56:48. > :56:50.cannot go on as it is. Somebody said it is the best
:56:51. > :56:53.in the world, it is not any longer because we cannot fund
:56:54. > :56:55.what we are trying All parties at some point have
:56:56. > :56:59.got to have the courage to stand up and say,
:57:00. > :57:02.this has got to be done cross-party, we have got to look
:57:03. > :57:09.at what the National Health service service can provide,
:57:10. > :57:11.how it is to be funded, and we're going to have to make changes,
:57:12. > :57:14.and some of those will come we do not want to keep people
:57:15. > :57:18.in hospital more than a moment We can do much more on day surgery,
:57:19. > :57:23.we can do much more on home visits, as I know Angela was saying
:57:24. > :57:26.because we talked about it earlier. So there has to be a proper look,
:57:27. > :57:29.which is not just driven Time for our regular round-up
:57:30. > :57:44.of the political week in 60 seconds. Sixth formers in Cornwall are told
:57:45. > :57:47.they could lose their council Every time it is those
:57:48. > :57:50.from low-income backgrounds in rural communities
:57:51. > :57:54.who are already struggling. The floods minister says
:57:55. > :57:57.she is confident work to stop the main rail line at Exeter
:57:58. > :57:59.being washed away will make a real difference,
:58:00. > :58:02.and will be completed on time. The real meat of the scheme will be
:58:03. > :58:05.delivered over the next two years, and options are being finalised
:58:06. > :58:08.in order to make sure that we see Householders in a block of flats
:58:09. > :58:15.in Exmouth are asked not to put holly wreaths on the door this
:58:16. > :58:17.Christmas because the council says No such concern surrounding
:58:18. > :58:28.the refund Christmas tree Both of which this year come
:58:29. > :58:33.from a farm on Dartmouth. Are you all looking
:58:34. > :58:34.forward to Christmas? Are you all looking
:58:35. > :58:38.forward to Christmas?! Peter, we have now got
:58:39. > :58:48.all the reports and the expert opinion in on what needs to be done
:58:49. > :58:51.to improve our beleaguered Still no firm ideas as to what and
:58:52. > :59:00.when the government will act. The very day that the rail line
:59:01. > :59:07.was closed again at Cowley Bridge, to lobby for investment in our vital
:59:08. > :59:11.North Devon line between Exeter About two weeks before
:59:12. > :59:15.that I met the floods minister, who you saw there,
:59:16. > :59:17.to that North Devon is especially
:59:18. > :59:18.vulnerable to flooding. We are getting some movement,
:59:19. > :59:23.working as a cabal of Devon MPs. And, as always, having
:59:24. > :59:27.you on as the president of the Countryside Alliance,
:59:28. > :59:33.have you any sense as to where the government is in moving
:59:34. > :59:36.towards its long-standing commitment to having a free vote on repealing
:59:37. > :59:39.the ban hunting with dogs? The government is committed
:59:40. > :59:41.to removing bad law. It has been for a long time,
:59:42. > :59:44.but we haven't seen any action. Unfortunately they were stopped
:59:45. > :59:46.from making some seriously important changes by the Scots,
:59:47. > :59:49.who decided to intervene in a matter As long as there is a substantial
:59:50. > :59:53.number of Scottish MPs and they are allowed to vote
:59:54. > :59:55.on purely English issues, I do not know when the election
:59:56. > :00:03.is going to come - Peter may - but it might be a bit sooner
:00:04. > :00:06.than some of us think, and that still the biggest factor. We are
:00:07. > :00:15.running out of time. Now, Foreign Secretary
:00:16. > :00:29.Boris Johnson was rebuked by Downing Street this week -
:00:30. > :00:32.yes, again - after the Guardian revealed he had accused Saudi Arabia
:00:33. > :00:35.of being among countries engaged in fighting "proxy wars"
:00:36. > :00:36.in the Middle East, breaking the Foreign Office's convention
:00:37. > :00:39.of not criticising a key UK ally in the region and annoying the prime
:00:40. > :00:42.minister who'd just returned The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon
:00:43. > :00:49.was asked about it And let's be very clear about this,
:00:50. > :00:57.the way some of his remarks were reported seemed to imply
:00:58. > :00:59.we didn't support the right of Saudi Arabia to defend itself,
:01:00. > :01:02.and it is being attacked by Houthi terrorists from over
:01:03. > :01:04.the border with Yemen, didn't support what Saudi is doing
:01:05. > :01:07.in leading the campaign to restore Some of the reporting led people
:01:08. > :01:15.to think that, and that is all... This was simply the way
:01:16. > :01:17.it was reported and interpreted. The way it was interpreted left
:01:18. > :01:19.people with the impression that we didn't support Saudi Arabia
:01:20. > :01:28.and we do. Well, Mr Johnson has been
:01:29. > :01:30.in the Saudi capital Riyadh this morning,
:01:31. > :01:32.so how's he been received? Our security correspondent
:01:33. > :01:34.Frank Gardner is in neighbouring Bahrain, where Mr Johnson
:01:35. > :01:45.was earlier in the weekend. It has probably been a long time
:01:46. > :01:49.since there has been such interest in a British Foreign Secretary
:01:50. > :01:56.visiting the gulf region. What are the political elites there making of
:01:57. > :02:00.it all? Well, they think to be honest it is a bit of a storm in a
:02:01. > :02:04.tea cup this is a bit of a Whitehall story, I think a lot of people I
:02:05. > :02:09.have spoken to tend to believe that Number Ten have made such a fuss
:02:10. > :02:14.about this, that it has created a story in itself. That said, though,
:02:15. > :02:17.I think that behind the scenes there was a certain amount of damage
:02:18. > :02:23.limitation taking place between London and Riyadh, a bit of
:02:24. > :02:27.smoothing of feathers and reassuring and the Stade Saudis tell me they
:02:28. > :02:32.are reassured the message they are taking is. Coming from Number Ten
:02:33. > :02:36.and they are not taking Boris Johnson's comments to heart. He is
:02:37. > :02:41.in the dam, he has met the king, I tweet add picture of that just a few
:02:42. > :02:46.minutes ago. He has been meeting Crown Prince, and he is now meeting
:02:47. > :02:49.the Foreign Minister, so the Saudis got an opportunity to brief him
:02:50. > :02:53.according to their vision of the Middle East. They will share their
:02:54. > :02:58.security concern, which is not just what is going on in Yemen, but they
:02:59. > :03:02.are very concerned about what they see as Iranian expansionism, that
:03:03. > :03:05.has been a theme here at this conference in Bahrain that Boris
:03:06. > :03:10.Johnson addressed only a day or two ago. If we put aside Mr Johnson's
:03:11. > :03:15.supposed gaffes or even the Downing Street slapping down of him, we have
:03:16. > :03:23.had the Prime Minister in the region earlier this week, we have got Mr
:03:24. > :03:32.Johnson there now, can we yet divine what the May Government strategy is
:03:33. > :03:37.in the Golf? -- Guff. In three words, in Boris Johnson's words
:03:38. > :03:44.Britain is back. He was very quick to say not in a jingoistic running
:03:45. > :03:48.up flags, new imperial list way, although that is Howley be seen by
:03:49. > :03:55.some. He gave a very forceful speech which seemed to go down well the
:03:56. > :04:00.gulf hosts here on Friday night which said Britain made a strategic
:04:01. > :04:05.mistake in, after 1968 in withdrawing east of Suez and it will
:04:06. > :04:12.reverse that decision, and invest ?3 billion over the next ten years in
:04:13. > :04:15.building up its military not bases exactly but facilities -- facilities
:04:16. > :04:18.that are here in this part of the world. There are currently 15
:04:19. > :04:23.hundred hundred British servicemen and women in this region, seven
:04:24. > :04:27.warships and so on. It isn't entirely true to say Britain
:04:28. > :04:32.withdrew east of Suez because we have had a military presence on and
:04:33. > :04:38.off here, the RAF had a base here in Bahrain during the Gulf War of 91.
:04:39. > :04:45.In 2003, of course, British planes and troops deployed from this area,
:04:46. > :04:49.but he and Theresa May are both saying post-Brexit, Britain's big
:04:50. > :04:53.emphasis or one of the big pushes is going to be to redouble its ties
:04:54. > :05:00.with gulf Arab nations, that isn't going to come as an easy bit of new,
:05:01. > :05:06.I think, to human rights campaigners and anti-arms campaigners because a
:05:07. > :05:08.large part of the ?7 billion of bilateral trade Britain did with
:05:09. > :05:14.Saudi Arabia comes from arms deals and those arms are being used in the
:05:15. > :05:16.conflict in Yemen, in some cases with tragic consequences. Thank you
:05:17. > :05:26.very much for talking to us. Instead of concentrating on Mr
:05:27. > :05:32.Johnson's gaffes, or Downing Street reaction to it. Frank Gardner there
:05:33. > :05:36.has just given us a really important development, or explained what the
:05:37. > :05:40.British are up to there now. They want to be back in the gulf big
:05:41. > :05:44.time. Isn't that something we should be debating and discussing? It is
:05:45. > :05:49.fascinating. It is yet another example post-Brexit I would say this
:05:50. > :05:53.is someone who voted to Brexit, that the world is changing, and Britain's
:05:54. > :05:58.role is going to be transformed post-Brexit. I mean just on the
:05:59. > :06:03.Boris point, I completely agree, I think a lot of it is ridiculous, in
:06:04. > :06:08.a Whitehall belt way stuff, but I think what is really important about
:06:09. > :06:12.it, is that Number Ten feel threatened by him, and the reason
:06:13. > :06:18.that these ridiculous gaffes and many of them are not even gaffes are
:06:19. > :06:23.pounced upon is he is the main rival for the Crown, so it is high level
:06:24. > :06:26.power play politics, and it is May trying to keep him in his place.
:06:27. > :06:33.What do you make though, of Britain is back in the gulf? That is the big
:06:34. > :06:37.story, is it not. Utterly bizarre, post imperial fantasy, the idea we
:06:38. > :06:43.are back east of Suez? We are breaking off from our closest ally,
:06:44. > :06:47.most like us, the rest of Europe, democratic, decent human rights
:06:48. > :06:53.country, and instead we are allying ourself to perilous, dangerous,
:06:54. > :07:01.unpleasant countries... Why should we be back in the gulf? If that is
:07:02. > :07:06.the trade off, these are, you know, these renasty kingdoms, petty
:07:07. > :07:10.unpleasant and unstable countries. Don't we have to keep the straits
:07:11. > :07:14.open otherwise the oil supply collapses and the world economy will
:07:15. > :07:19.go into the worst recession depression ever? Don't we have to be
:07:20. > :07:22.involved in that We do, and I think what happens is if we leave Europe
:07:23. > :07:27.and we need trade everywhere else, we have to travel the world on our
:07:28. > :07:33.knees begging for friends from the most unsavoury people, where ever
:07:34. > :07:37.they are, whether it is... You keep saying we are leaving Europe, that
:07:38. > :07:42.is a geographic impossibility. Britain is part of Europe, we are
:07:43. > :07:46.the... Not what Liam Fox is saying. The key power in Nato, we are
:07:47. > :07:52.leaving the European Union, that is a different Tring from Europe. I am
:07:53. > :07:56.trying to move away from Mr Johnson, or even Downing Street to... You got
:07:57. > :08:01.yourself into a Brexit row. Everything is through the prism of
:08:02. > :08:05.Brexit, even what you have for breakfast, when you mix up the word
:08:06. > :08:10.like I did last week. What do you make of what Frank Gardner told us?
:08:11. > :08:14.I am somewhere between the two. It is a nighs the line say we are back
:08:15. > :08:17.in the Middle East and we will take this part of the world seriously,
:08:18. > :08:22.the truth is our military is almost tiny, it is smaller than it was in
:08:23. > :08:28.the Napoleonic wars, that is not a huge amount more. Of course there S
:08:29. > :08:33.one of the two new aircraft carriers, that will be deployed in
:08:34. > :08:40.the gulf, to help the Americans keep the straits of her muz open, because
:08:41. > :08:44.it is in Europe's interest, not just Britains, Europe's interest that
:08:45. > :08:51.these straits stay open, which is more so than America. That is what
:08:52. > :08:56.FRANK was talking about. That is no change, British foreign policy has
:08:57. > :09:03.been keeping the straits open... Now we have the ability do it. We don't
:09:04. > :09:12.have an aircraft aier at the moment. Nor do we have the fleet of ships it
:09:13. > :09:16.needs. It is a great thing to be trade morgue with the Nice, to be
:09:17. > :09:20.turning -- Middle East, to be turning round more tax revenues and
:09:21. > :09:25.the like. Even selling weapons. I don't know what more can be done.
:09:26. > :09:28.You look at what has happened. BBC has had horrific reports from the
:09:29. > :09:32.Yemen and if you look at what the weapons are being used for, is that
:09:33. > :09:38.the trade we want? Right. Let us move on. Mr Corbyn was giving a
:09:39. > :09:40.speech yesterday but he was inter#ru79ded by Peter Tatchell.
:09:41. > :09:53.Peter, could we leave this to the questions please?
:09:54. > :09:56.Peter, we are trying to make a speech here and then
:09:57. > :10:09.Was Peter Tatchell right do that yesterday? It is a bit of a
:10:10. > :10:15.distraction really. Jeremy Corbyn 17% in the polled is not going to be
:10:16. > :10:19.able to change... You mean his personal rating. If you want to do
:10:20. > :10:25.something about Syria you ought to be addressing the Government rather
:10:26. > :10:28.than a failing Labour leader. Peter Tatchell's line was Labour in
:10:29. > :10:34.general, Mr Corbyn in particular had not been vocal enough in condemning
:10:35. > :10:41.what the Russians and their Assad allies are doing in Aleppo. It was
:10:42. > :10:44.interesting Mr Corbyn had to ask Emily Thornberry if and when had
:10:45. > :10:52.they condemned what the Russians were doing? It was unclear. Other
:10:53. > :10:57.than Mrs Thornbury herself. There is a fascinating fault line in politics
:10:58. > :11:01.which is the Trump administration, the way in which parts of the
:11:02. > :11:07.British left have made themselves useful idiots once again for the
:11:08. > :11:10.Kremlin and it its policies. I think more broadly, you consider all the
:11:11. > :11:14.things we have been discussing, it is a national tragedy what is
:11:15. > :11:19.happening to the Labour Party. You don't know whether to laugh or cry
:11:20. > :11:24.watching that event. Corbyn was at a stop the war rally event only last
:11:25. > :11:29.week, and they of course are very close to the Kremlin, they blame the
:11:30. > :11:36.west, well they blame the west much more... They always blame the west.
:11:37. > :11:40.And not the Russians. I agree Jeremy Corbyn having to check with Emily
:11:41. > :11:46.Thornberry what the Labour Party's policy was on bombing Aleppo... If
:11:47. > :11:51.and when they condemned it. He needs to no better. The fact that we are
:11:52. > :11:56.talking about what was a pretty small scale protest, rather than
:11:57. > :12:00.anything Corbyn said, shows he wasn't saying anything relevant. We
:12:01. > :12:04.will get a huge amount of tweet saying the BBC are anti-Corbyn. I
:12:05. > :12:07.understand that, that shouldn't intimidate us from saying, from
:12:08. > :12:12.analysing what is happening, and here is one yard stick, of course it
:12:13. > :12:15.is fundamentally the Government's choice, but it could be an indicator
:12:16. > :12:21.of whether the Labour Party is relevant or not in only issues, in
:12:22. > :12:26.reason pert Murdoch is making a take over bid for all of Sky and so far
:12:27. > :12:31.you would have to bet, policy, that it is going to get through pretty
:12:32. > :12:35.much unscathed. It is extraordinary. It is connected with Leveson, and
:12:36. > :12:38.the fact that that has disappeared. That the idea of restraining the
:12:39. > :12:43.press in any way at all, and virtual will I the whole of the press is
:12:44. > :12:49.behind that, and it seems to go with allowing what wasn't allowed before.
:12:50. > :12:54.He was judged as unfit before. He is as unfit now, to control that much
:12:55. > :12:58.of the media, and as he was when he made the last bid for Sky. It is
:12:59. > :13:03.time people stood up and said so. You look at the press he runs, the
:13:04. > :13:07.cultural effect he has has on this country which has been appalling,
:13:08. > :13:14.you know about this. Tom, I better let you have a word. I don't agree
:13:15. > :13:20.at all Polly but the lesson for the Labour Party, is if they don't want
:13:21. > :13:24.to have any influence at all, they have to be credible, and stand a
:13:25. > :13:26.reasonable chance of becoming Prime Minister or becoming Government,
:13:27. > :13:31.that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.
:13:32. > :13:37.I was going to say we will come back to it. We will see. The Daily
:13:38. > :13:40.Politics will be back at noon tomorrow.
:13:41. > :13:43.and we'll be back here next Sunday for the last show of 2016.
:13:44. > :14:40.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:41. > :14:46.# We're going to have a party tonight