:00:41. > :00:44.Commons Speaker John Bercow is accused of compromising his
:00:45. > :00:47.impartiality by revealing he voted Remain in last year's EU referendum.
:00:48. > :00:56.The EU Withdrawal Bill clears its first Parliamentary hurdle.
:00:57. > :00:59.But will the House of Lords be quite so accommodating?
:01:00. > :01:05.Labour's Leader in the Lords joins us live.
:01:06. > :01:10.And we report from Stoke-on-Trent ahead of a crucial by-election
:01:11. > :01:18.In the south-west, headteachers warn Ukip is looking to give
:01:19. > :01:21.In the south-west, headteachers warn of cuts under the new education
:01:22. > :01:23.funding formula. And with me a political panel
:01:24. > :01:35.who frequently like to compromise Steve Richards, Julia
:01:36. > :01:41.Hartley-Brewer and Janan Ganesh. I'll be trying to keep them in order
:01:42. > :01:47.during the course of the programme. So, Commons Speaker John Bercow has
:01:48. > :01:50.insisted his ability to act impartially is not damaged
:01:51. > :01:56.by reports that he voted to Remain The Sunday Telegraph reveals that
:01:57. > :02:03.Speaker Bercow revealed his views in front of an audience of students
:02:04. > :02:06.at Reading University This may not be popular with some
:02:07. > :02:23.people in this audience - I thought it was better to stay
:02:24. > :02:27.in the European Union than not, partly for economic reason,
:02:28. > :02:30.being part of a big trade bloc, and partly because I think we're
:02:31. > :02:35.in a world of power blocs, and I think for all
:02:36. > :02:37.the weaknesses and deficiencies of the European Union,
:02:38. > :02:47.it is better to be part of that big Speaker Bercow speaking at Reading
:02:48. > :02:53.University earlier this month. Does he not care is this I get that
:02:54. > :02:57.impression, he knows perfectly well, it states he has to be particularly
:02:58. > :03:03.-- Parliamentary neural. Whether there are going to be enough votes
:03:04. > :03:08.to force him out, the question, the last speaker wept out with the 20
:03:09. > :03:14.vote against him. You yes to have the command of the support across
:03:15. > :03:23.the House. There is a Deputy Speaker, waiting, who would be
:03:24. > :03:28.superb. I think even the people who pretend to support Macis have had
:03:29. > :03:33.enough -- Speaker Bercow have had enough of his ways. The reason I ask
:03:34. > :03:37.whether he care, he didn't just tell the students that he voted to
:03:38. > :03:43.Remain, he then gave them a running commentary on all the issues that
:03:44. > :03:46.will be part of the Brexit negotiations, workers' rights,
:03:47. > :03:51.immigration, trade policy, everyone maternity leave got a hat tip from
:03:52. > :03:57.him. He would be a very well prepared Brexit minister if
:03:58. > :04:01.attendance needs a colleague -- David Davis needs a colleague. I
:04:02. > :04:04.don't think this story makes his position untenable, what does is the
:04:05. > :04:10.wired pattern of behaviour of excessive candour on his political
:04:11. > :04:18.views, going back years, this is a guy who when the Queen visited
:04:19. > :04:23.Parliament described her as theical lied scope Queen. He had a running
:04:24. > :04:29.argument with David Cameron. We know his views on Brexit, we know his
:04:30. > :04:38.views on Donald Trump. . He has given interviews, none of the views
:04:39. > :04:42.are illegitimate but the candour which they are expressed with is
:04:43. > :04:48.scrupulous. Given Lyndsay Hoyle is a class accuse. He is the Deputy
:04:49. > :04:52.Speaker. And a fairly ready replacement, whether there is more
:04:53. > :04:56.of a movement to say, maybe not force Bercow out but acknowledge he
:04:57. > :05:01.has had a few years in the job and the question of successor ship comes
:05:02. > :05:06.into play. Has he concluded he is untouchable? What I can definitely
:05:07. > :05:10.say, is that he is determined to fight this one out, and not go of
:05:11. > :05:16.his own volition, so if he goes he will have to be forced out. He wants
:05:17. > :05:21.to stay. Which will be tough. It will be tough. Likely as things
:05:22. > :05:24.stand. I would say this, I speak to someone who likes the way he has
:05:25. > :05:29.brought the House of Commons to life, held ministers to account,
:05:30. > :05:32.forced them into explain thing, whenever there is a topical issue
:05:33. > :05:39.you know it will be in the House of Commons. He has changed that. He
:05:40. > :05:44.has. Time has been courageous, Ied a mire the way he has been a speaker.
:05:45. > :05:50.I would say this, during the referendum campaign, he asked me
:05:51. > :05:53.Nick Clegg, and Peter Hitchens to debate Brexit if his constituency.
:05:54. > :05:58.It was a packed out meeting. He chaired it. I said don't you want to
:05:59. > :06:06.join in? He didn't. He showed no desire to join in, he was impartial.
:06:07. > :06:12.He goes out to universities and kind of demyth GCSEs Parliament by
:06:13. > :06:19.speaking to them in a way, he doesn't gets credit for it and stays
:06:20. > :06:24.on after and drinks with them. Sometimes he, you know, it is
:06:25. > :06:28.clearly a mistake to have gone into his views retrospectively on that
:06:29. > :06:31.referendum campaign, I don't think that, did he try and stop Article 50
:06:32. > :06:35.from being triggered in the House of Commons? That would be a scandal.
:06:36. > :06:38.Even that would be beyond him. Briefly, yes or no, could you
:06:39. > :06:44.imagine Betty Boothroyd behaving like that? Not at all. None of the
:06:45. > :06:51.recent speakers I could imagine doing that. It is good he is
:06:52. > :06:55.The bill that will allow the government to trigger Article 50
:06:56. > :06:56.and begin Brexit negotiations was voted through
:06:57. > :07:01.Many MPs were in a difficult position - unsure whether to vote
:07:02. > :07:02.with their conscience, their constituency,
:07:03. > :07:05.Europe, once such a divisive issue for the Conservatives,
:07:06. > :07:08.is now causing major divisions inside the Labour Party.
:07:09. > :07:13.So, let's have a look what happened in a bit more detail:
:07:14. > :07:15.Thanks to academic research carried out since the referendum,
:07:16. > :07:18.we now have estimates of how each individual constituency voted.
:07:19. > :07:23.It's thought that 410 constituencies voted Leave.
:07:24. > :07:31.On Wednesday night, the EU Notification of Withdrawal Bill
:07:32. > :07:33.was voted through by the House of Commons.
:07:34. > :07:42.The bill left the Labour Party divided.
:07:43. > :07:44.Jeremy Corbyn told his MPs to respect the result
:07:45. > :07:47.of the referendum and vote for the government's bill -
:07:48. > :07:50.But 52 Labour MPs defied Mr Corbyn's thee-line whip
:07:51. > :08:06.That's about a fifth of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
:08:07. > :08:08.Of those 52 Labour MPs who voted against the bill,
:08:09. > :08:11.the majority, 45 of them, represent seats that voted Remain.
:08:12. > :08:13.However, seven Labour MPs voted against the Article 50 Bill,
:08:14. > :08:15.even though their constituents voted Leave in the referendum.
:08:16. > :08:17.The Conservative Party were much more united.
:08:18. > :08:20.The vast majority of Tory MPs, 320 of them, voted for the bill.
:08:21. > :08:22.Just one Conservative MP, Ken Clarke, voted against it.
:08:23. > :08:24.His constituency, Rushcliffe in Nottinghamshire, voted Remain.
:08:25. > :08:26.The bill will now go to the House of Lords -
:08:27. > :08:40.peers will start debating it on Monday the 20th of February.
:08:41. > :08:42.Joining me now is Matthew Goodwin, politics professor at
:08:43. > :08:45.He's got a book out next month called
:08:46. > :08:47.Brexit: Why Britain Voted To Leave The European Union.
:08:48. > :08:56.Welcome to the programme. Has Brexit, how you voted in the
:08:57. > :08:59.referendum and your continuing attitudes toward it, is that now
:09:00. > :09:05.becoming the new dividing line in British politics? I think it
:09:06. > :09:08.certainly is contributing to a new dividing line, in western politics
:09:09. > :09:13.more generally, we know over the last ten years, that the old left
:09:14. > :09:17.and right division has been making way for a new division, between
:09:18. > :09:20.essentially social liberals and Conservative, and Brexit was a, an
:09:21. > :09:25.incident a moment that really reflected that new dividing line, so
:09:26. > :09:31.it wasn't just the case that Brexit has cut across Labour's base, it is
:09:32. > :09:36.that dividing line, that deeper division is cutting across social
:09:37. > :09:40.democracies more generally. Is there a possibility, no higher than that,
:09:41. > :09:45.that it will reShane our party politics? I think it is too early to
:09:46. > :09:49.know whether this is a fundamental long-term realignment. If we look at
:09:50. > :09:54.what is happening in local by-election, what is happening at
:09:55. > :10:01.by-elections, pictures a bit mixed but if you look at how some of the
:10:02. > :10:05.Labour vote is responding, I think that potentially reflects the
:10:06. > :10:09.possibility of a terminal decline for the Labour Party, it is going to
:10:10. > :10:13.be incredibly difficult for Labour to win these voters back, these are
:10:14. > :10:18.traditional working class, socially Conservative voters who are leaving
:10:19. > :10:22.the party, don't forget, since the 1997 general election. It is not
:10:23. > :10:27.just because of the referendum. If that was the case, Labour would
:10:28. > :10:30.become more a party of the Metropolitan areas, and less of a
:10:31. > :10:35.party outside of these area, is that what you are saying? What we are S
:10:36. > :10:40.seeing across the west can social democracy that retrenchment into the
:10:41. > :10:45.cosmopolitan, Metropolitan city area, university towns, you can
:10:46. > :10:48.seeing in many European states populist right parties filling the
:10:49. > :10:54.traditional socialist area, why are they doing that? Because they are
:10:55. > :10:58.offering two message, economic and cultural protectionism. Social
:10:59. > :11:01.Democrats are clinging to that economic protectionism but not
:11:02. > :11:06.saying much about migration and multiculturalism and that sort of
:11:07. > :11:09.stuff. Are there deeper forces at work than Jeremy Corbyn? He often
:11:10. > :11:13.gets the blame for what is happening to the Labour Party now, but if you
:11:14. > :11:20.look the way the Greek socialist party has been wiped out. The German
:11:21. > :11:24.Social Democrats are in trouble. The Italian socialist party has lost a
:11:25. > :11:29.referendum. The French socialist are coming close to being wiped out on
:11:30. > :11:33.April 23rd, Labour's problems, are part of a much wider problem of
:11:34. > :11:38.social democracy S Jeremy Corbyn is a surface problem, what I mean by
:11:39. > :11:41.that is you could replace him tosh with another leader, they would
:11:42. > :11:48.still have this fundamental tension within the electorate. They are
:11:49. > :11:51.trying to appeal to two differenter reconcilable groups of voters who
:11:52. > :11:56.think differently about the key issues of the day. It is very
:11:57. > :12:02.difficult for any centre left party now to assemble the kinds of
:12:03. > :12:05.coalitionses we saw in the '90s with Clinton and Blair and Schroeder.
:12:06. > :12:11.Those days are gone. Does that explain why it is now Labour, rather
:12:12. > :12:15.than the Conservatives, historically the party divided over the European
:12:16. > :12:21.Union, does all of that help to explain why its Labour that now
:12:22. > :12:27.seems, disunited over the EU? I think so, I think also that the
:12:28. > :12:31.issue of Brexit, and the EU, is so immatly wrapped up with that issue
:12:32. > :12:35.of immigration, if you look at who has been abandoned Labour since 2015
:12:36. > :12:41.or the late 90s, the one thing those voters share is a rejection of the
:12:42. > :12:45.so-called liberal consensus on EU membership and mass immigration. It
:12:46. > :12:50.is difficult for any Labour lead eer co-bin or Clive Lewis on Dan Jarvis,
:12:51. > :12:54.to bring those voters back unless they are going to move on that
:12:55. > :12:59.cultural terrain. If they are not, they may not go to Ukip, they might
:13:00. > :13:00.go to somewhere more difficult for Labour which is political apathy.
:13:01. > :13:04.Thank you for that. Attention now shifts to the House
:13:05. > :13:06.of Lords where peers will begin scrutinising the EU Withdrawal Bill
:13:07. > :13:09.in just over a week. Brexit Secretary David Davis urged
:13:10. > :13:12.the Lords "to do its patriotic duty" and resist the urge to tinker
:13:13. > :13:14.with the legislation. Former minister Oliver Letwin
:13:15. > :13:16.went one further - mooting the possibility
:13:17. > :13:18.of the abolition of the Lords if it sought to frustrate
:13:19. > :13:20.the bill in any way. Here he is posing the question
:13:21. > :13:28.in the Commons on Thursday. Would he find time, in government
:13:29. > :13:31.time for a debate, should the other place seek to delay beyond the end
:13:32. > :13:35.of March the passage of our accession to Article 50, for this
:13:36. > :13:37.House to discuss the possibility of either the abolition or full-scale
:13:38. > :13:47.reform of the other place? And Oliver Letwin joins
:13:48. > :14:00.me now from Dorset. Welcome back to the programme Mr Let
:14:01. > :14:04.win. Before we come on to the Lord's, can I get your thoughts on a
:14:05. > :14:08.matter that has been making the news this morning and John Bercow's
:14:09. > :14:13.remarks about being a remain voter an giving something of a running
:14:14. > :14:18.commentary on various Brexit issues, has he sqloefr stepped the mark as
:14:19. > :14:26.speaker? -- overstepped the mark. I think this is slightly a fuss about
:14:27. > :14:29.nothing. Every person who thinks about politics will have had some
:14:30. > :14:33.opinion about great matters like Brexit, and I really don't see any
:14:34. > :14:39.particular reason why his opinion shouldn't be known after the fact.
:14:40. > :14:43.I, I was there throughout the five days of the Brexit debate, and I
:14:44. > :14:48.have to say, I thought he was pretty scrupulously fair in the way he
:14:49. > :14:51.handled the House, so, I, I don't really share the view that there is
:14:52. > :14:56.some terrible thing that has been revealed this weekend. Let me come
:14:57. > :15:02.on to what we are here to talk about, which is the Lords. Why have
:15:03. > :15:06.you raised the threat of the abolition of the Lord for doing its
:15:07. > :15:15.job of scrutinising what is coming out the Commons? Well, you know,
:15:16. > :15:19.Andrew, this question of the job of the House of Lords and scrutiny, has
:15:20. > :15:24.to be looked at carefully. There are all sorts of bills that come out the
:15:25. > :15:28.House of Commons which are detailed things that relate to, finance, and
:15:29. > :15:33.expenditure, and the criminal law, and all that sort of thing, and all
:15:34. > :15:37.of that, I admire the work that the House of Lords does, as you say
:15:38. > :15:43.scrutinising and we shouldn't use that word loosely, it means looking
:15:44. > :15:48.carefully at the detail, line by line of complicated legislation,
:15:49. > :15:52.hundreds of Paps in some cases, and spotting, using the considerable
:15:53. > :15:56.expertise many, not all be many of the peers have, in any given field,
:15:57. > :16:01.to identify things where the Commons has got it wrong in the sense that
:16:02. > :16:04.the legislation wouldn't achieve what the Government of the day is
:16:05. > :16:09.seeking to make it achieve. That is a serious proper role for an Upper
:16:10. > :16:13.House and the House of Lords performs it pretty
:16:14. > :16:24.Now this is a very different case. This is a two clause bill. The first
:16:25. > :16:30.clause which is the operative clause says the Prime Minister should go
:16:31. > :16:36.ahead and sign... I understand all that. We haven't got that much time,
:16:37. > :16:43.this is becoming a monologue. There is nothing to scrutinise, Andrew.
:16:44. > :16:48.There were plenty of amendments put before the Commons, none of them got
:16:49. > :16:51.through, it is true. There are eight Labour amendments in the Lords, are
:16:52. > :16:56.you resigned to this bill coming back to the Commons with amendments?
:16:57. > :17:00.No, it should not come back with amendments. There were hundreds of
:17:01. > :17:04.amendments literally put down in the House of Commons, they were all
:17:05. > :17:08.drunk. They were all trying one way or another to derail the process.
:17:09. > :17:15.This is a binary issue, should Theresa May sign the withdrawal or
:17:16. > :17:21.not? What should the Commons do? The Commons has now voted in favour of
:17:22. > :17:30.it. Node do should tolerate and unelected chamber forcing the
:17:31. > :17:33.British people... The people voted in a referendum and the Commons
:17:34. > :17:38.voted. The matter is now signed and sealed and should not be derailed by
:17:39. > :17:43.the House of Lords. On Labour amendment wants confirmation that
:17:44. > :17:47.when it is done, the potential Brexit agreement will be put before
:17:48. > :17:52.parliament before any vote in the European Parliament, that has been
:17:53. > :17:57.an agreed principle, what is wrong with that amendments? The government
:17:58. > :18:00.has already agreed there will be a vote, but actually, what the
:18:01. > :18:05.amendments were seeking was to give the Commons a further vote on
:18:06. > :18:08.whether we actually leave or not. That is already decided. Neither the
:18:09. > :18:14.House of Lords nor anybody else has a right in my view, despite the fact
:18:15. > :18:19.I was a remain, to what the will of the British people. Nobody should
:18:20. > :18:23.think an unelected chamber should now try to change the course of
:18:24. > :18:29.British history by asserting amendments in a very effective on
:18:30. > :18:31.clause bill which says go ahead and trigger Article 50. Are you
:18:32. > :18:35.concerned that amendments by the Lords which would then have to go
:18:36. > :18:42.back to the Commons for consideration, are you concerned
:18:43. > :18:47.that could derail or delay the Prime Minister's timetable for Article 50?
:18:48. > :18:52.Yes, exactly. That would be the result of a prolonged bout of
:18:53. > :18:55.ping-pong between the two houses, or much worse, if the House of Lords
:18:56. > :19:00.failed to give way and the Parliament act had to be used. It
:19:01. > :19:04.would really be intolerable. It is not good for our country. Those of
:19:05. > :19:10.us who voted remain would prefer for that not to happen. The whole
:19:11. > :19:15.country -- it is important for the whole country that this happens in a
:19:16. > :19:19.rapid way and allowing the government free rein to negotiate,
:19:20. > :19:23.that is surely in all our advantages? Deed think any efforts
:19:24. > :19:28.to abolish the House of Lords, an issue you have raised, does that
:19:29. > :19:35.make it easier because your friend David Cameron stuffed the upper
:19:36. > :19:39.chamber with donors, lapdogs and lingerie designers? I was among
:19:40. > :19:44.those who advocated for many years wholesale reform of the House of
:19:45. > :19:48.Lords, to turn it into a serious elected second chamber. I think we
:19:49. > :19:53.should have an upper house which commands legitimacy. This is a
:19:54. > :19:58.second issue. Here we have not got such a House and it seems to be very
:19:59. > :20:02.clear that it should not seek to derail on delay the action which has
:20:03. > :20:06.been mandated by the referendum, agreed by the House of Commons, and
:20:07. > :20:11.what we want to see now is a smooth orderly effect for this bill, so it
:20:12. > :20:17.becomes law and Theresa May can go ahead and negotiate on our behalf.
:20:18. > :20:20.One more question on the process, if the Lords to amend the bill and it
:20:21. > :20:26.goes back to the Commons and the Commons sends these amendments back
:20:27. > :20:33.again, take them out, how long could this ping-pong between the two
:20:34. > :20:37.chambers go on in your experience? It is a very, very interesting and
:20:38. > :20:41.complicated question with the clerks of the two ends of the Palace of
:20:42. > :20:47.Westminster not always agreeing about this. But through certain
:20:48. > :20:50.machinations of slightly changing amendments as they go, in my
:20:51. > :20:54.experience this could carry on for an awful long time if clever people,
:20:55. > :20:57.and there are plenty of clever people in the House of Lords, want
:20:58. > :21:01.to do that and that is precisely why I think we should not tolerate it.
:21:02. > :21:04.Oliver Letwin, thank you for joining us from Dorset.
:21:05. > :21:09.Joining me now is Labour's Leader in the House of Lords, Angela Smith.
:21:10. > :21:15.The Commons passed this bill without any amendments... There were
:21:16. > :21:20.changes, the government did concede a couple of points. But the
:21:21. > :21:25.amendments did not go through. Does that put pressure on the Lords to do
:21:26. > :21:29.the same? I think the Lords always feels under pressure to do the right
:21:30. > :21:35.thing. When I heard Oliver Letwin, I did not know whether to laugh or
:21:36. > :21:41.cry. We will not frustrate, we will not wreck, we will not sabotage. We
:21:42. > :21:45.will do what David Davis said was our patriotic duty. We will
:21:46. > :21:49.scrutinise the bill. We have at amendments from the Labour Party. We
:21:50. > :21:52.will look at those. It depends on the government response if we vote
:21:53. > :21:56.on those. There could be amendments asking the Commons to look again.
:21:57. > :22:02.That is normally what we do. It is not the wrong thing to do. But if
:22:03. > :22:06.you do this and make amendments, it then goes back to the Commons. If
:22:07. > :22:10.the Commons rejects the Lords' amendments, what do you think will
:22:11. > :22:17.happen? I do not see any extended ping-pong at all. It is perfectly
:22:18. > :22:21.legitimate. We are not talking about the outcome of negotiations, we are
:22:22. > :22:24.talking about the process. The process of engaging with Parliament
:22:25. > :22:28.and reporting to Parliament. It would be totally responsible for
:22:29. > :22:31.Parliament to say, off you go, Theresa May, have two years of
:22:32. > :22:35.negotiation and come back and talk to us at the end. The has to be a
:22:36. > :22:39.process where the government can use the expertise of parliament to get
:22:40. > :22:45.this right. But if you do put in some amendments, it has to go back
:22:46. > :22:48.to the Commons, they may well say they don't want those amendments and
:22:49. > :22:53.it may go back to the Lords, could that at the very least delay the
:22:54. > :22:59.Prime Minister's Brexit timetable? I don't think so. She said the end of
:23:00. > :23:03.March. Time has been built in for all the normal processes. I think
:23:04. > :23:06.Oliver Letwin and others are getting a bit overexcited. This is the
:23:07. > :23:10.normal process. Unless the government get things right the
:23:11. > :23:15.first time every time, the has to be this kind of process. These are
:23:16. > :23:19.reasonable amendments. This is a Labour amendment we are talking
:23:20. > :23:32.about here, you want a vote in the UK Parliament before any
:23:33. > :23:36.vote in the European Parliament if and when the Brexit deal is done,
:23:37. > :23:39.the Commons and the Lords get to vote on it first. But the government
:23:40. > :23:43.I think have already agreed to that so what is the point? It needs to be
:23:44. > :23:45.on the face of the bill. It is over well if the government have agreed
:23:46. > :23:49.it. Lord dubs had an agreement about child and look what happened to
:23:50. > :23:55.that. Does not sound as if you would go to the wire on that? It is
:23:56. > :23:59.important it is not just about the vote at the end, you have the
:24:00. > :24:05.ongoing engagement. If it is going to be a bad deal, we need to know
:24:06. > :24:10.long before we get to that stage? Is it something you would hold out for?
:24:11. > :24:15.I don't know yet. It is about how the House of Lords votes, Labour do
:24:16. > :24:19.not have a majority, we never had a majority in the House of Lords when
:24:20. > :24:24.we were in government. It is wrong to suggest that we cannot debate
:24:25. > :24:30.these issues... I don't think anyone is suggesting that. They are. It is
:24:31. > :24:33.not unfair to ask the government to ask the House of Commons to look
:24:34. > :24:37.again to look at those issues if that is what the House of Lords
:24:38. > :24:42.decides. Bit of the House of Commons says we looked, we are sticking with
:24:43. > :24:47.what we voted for, we rejected every amendment by at least 30 votes on
:24:48. > :24:51.all occasions, the Lords then have to buckle, is that what you are
:24:52. > :24:55.saying? Some point I think it is clear the House of Commons have to
:24:56. > :24:59.have its say. I think it is inconceivable that having had a
:25:00. > :25:04.referendum, which was not overwhelming, but it was a clear
:25:05. > :25:07.result, the House of Lords has no intention of sabotaging that but
:25:08. > :25:11.there are things which are not good about the process that we think
:25:12. > :25:16.could be improved. We have not just have the result of the referendum
:25:17. > :25:21.which voted to leave, but we have had the will of the Commons that
:25:22. > :25:28.passed this legislation by a majority of 372. And I am not
:25:29. > :25:32.contesting that for a second! Could you cite a precedent for the upper
:25:33. > :25:37.house amending a bill which passed by 372 votes in the Commons? Quite
:25:38. > :25:39.other things will come to the House of Lords with big majorities from
:25:40. > :25:44.the Commons and quite often the amendments we get, with that then
:25:45. > :25:50.forward and the government sees it could do better. Though not
:25:51. > :25:52.necessarily saying the government has got things wrong, but they could
:25:53. > :25:58.do things better. That happens time and time again and it is not
:25:59. > :26:03.unusual. If you were seen to thwart the referendum result and the vote
:26:04. > :26:07.in the Commons, the elected chamber of parliament, is the threat of
:26:08. > :26:11.abolition hanging over you? I think that is really ridiculous and
:26:12. > :26:14.absolute nonsense. We are not tying to what the decision of the House of
:26:15. > :26:18.Commons, we are trying to do better. It is a bit rich of the government
:26:19. > :26:23.and Oliver Letwin to complain about getting things through in time when
:26:24. > :26:28.the House of Commons spent -- the government spent three months trying
:26:29. > :26:31.to debate this issue. There have been some strong questions put to
:26:32. > :26:35.the government from the House of Lords on all sides. I don't know if
:26:36. > :26:43.the amendments have been passed or not. I think we have a good case for
:26:44. > :26:51.the government to get debate the point. If a traditional MP like
:26:52. > :26:54.Oliver Letwin is calling for the abolition of the hereditary and
:26:55. > :26:58.appointed chamber, and the Labour person like yourself was trying to
:26:59. > :27:04.defend that, that would not be a sustainable position, I would
:27:05. > :27:06.suggest! We saw this with the Strathclyde report as well, this is
:27:07. > :27:09.a government like no other. It is the first Conservative government in
:27:10. > :27:15.history not to have an automatic majority. They do not like challenge
:27:16. > :27:20.or scrutiny. But you get my point, Labour cannot go to the wire in
:27:21. > :27:23.defending and an elected second chamber, can it? Actually, Labour
:27:24. > :27:26.can go to the wire in saying the government does not get it right
:27:27. > :27:33.every time. House of Lords is going to normal processes and people like
:27:34. > :27:37.Oliver Letwin are really getting a little bit over excited, and people
:27:38. > :27:44.who have been anonymously briefing. Who has been anonymously briefing? I
:27:45. > :27:47.don't know, they are anonymous! I understand people want to make
:27:48. > :27:51.amendments, that is the role of the House of Lords, but can I just for
:27:52. > :27:55.the avoidance of doubt, is it still your case that whatever amendments
:27:56. > :28:00.to make, whatever may go back and forward, it is not your intention to
:28:01. > :28:06.stop Article 50 being triggered by the end of March? I have been saying
:28:07. > :28:09.that, exactly that for months and months and months. It is
:28:10. > :28:12.inconceivable that an unelected House will thwart the will of the
:28:13. > :28:16.House of Commons and a referendum on this issue. But that does not mean
:28:17. > :28:21.we will be bullied by Oliver Letwin and others. But the triggering will
:28:22. > :28:27.happen by the end of March? I very much suspect so unless Theresa May
:28:28. > :28:29.has second thoughts, I suspect that will happen. Thank you.
:28:30. > :28:31.Now, just because it's parliamentary recess next week
:28:32. > :28:35.There are two by-elections round the corner -
:28:36. > :28:37.one in Copeland, and another in Stoke-on-Trent Central
:28:38. > :28:39.where the former Shadow Education Secretary,
:28:40. > :28:41.Tristram Hunt, vacated his seat to take up a role
:28:42. > :28:44.as Director of the Victoria Albert Museum in London.
:28:45. > :28:47.But Labour are facing a fight to hold onto the constituency
:28:48. > :28:53.Seconds away, Ukip's new leader has stepped into the ring
:28:54. > :28:55.as their candidate in a by-election bout to see
:28:56. > :29:02.At the last election Ukip came second to Labour here
:29:03. > :29:07.But now they are confident they can land a knockout blow,
:29:08. > :29:14.because this place is packed with people that voted to leave the EU.
:29:15. > :29:17.70% of people voted to leave the European Union.
:29:18. > :29:25.I'm the only candidate standing in this election
:29:26. > :29:28.who is a true Brexiteer, who has always campaigned to leave
:29:29. > :29:30.the EU and therefore I believe I would be the best person
:29:31. > :29:33.But he has had to fight off allegations
:29:34. > :29:36.he wasn't living in the constituency when he entered the contest.
:29:37. > :29:39.Explain to me what is going on with this issue about your house?
:29:40. > :29:41.Well, we took up the lease the day before nominations.
:29:42. > :29:44.Everything we've done is perfectly legal and within the law.
:29:45. > :29:49.The Labour Party are trying to get off the real issues in this election
:29:50. > :29:56.and focus on something which is banal nonsense.
:29:57. > :30:02.And there's been trouble as well for the Labour contender.
:30:03. > :30:04.He's been labelled a Remoaner after he sent a series
:30:05. > :30:07.of anti-Brexit tweets, filled with words
:30:08. > :30:18.I can't believe I'm about to ask this question in a nursery
:30:19. > :30:20.on a Sunday morning TV programme, but did you really tweet that
:30:21. > :30:25.I tweeted many things about Brexit, that's tweet is out there.
:30:26. > :30:28.It was done quite after the referendum result and it
:30:29. > :30:31.was my way of showing my frustration at the fact that months
:30:32. > :30:36.after the result we hadn't had anything from the government.
:30:37. > :30:38.Theresa May had failed to produce any plan,
:30:39. > :30:40.she had failed to give any meaningful statement
:30:41. > :30:42.about what Brexit meant other than bland statements
:30:43. > :30:45.about Brexit is Brexit, and it's a hard Brexit, or a soft Brexit.
:30:46. > :30:49.The context of it was it was out of frustration.
:30:50. > :30:52.So you didn't mean to insult the 70% of the people who live here
:30:53. > :30:55.I never mean to insult anybody and you know,
:30:56. > :30:58.I've made it quite clear, if I'm elected as the member
:30:59. > :31:00.of Parliament for Stoke-on-Trent Central, I will absolutely respect
:31:01. > :31:02.the wishes of the people of Stoke Central.
:31:03. > :31:06.I will make sure my vote in parliament is to trigger Article 50.
:31:07. > :31:09.While the Tories' man has done little bit of rebranding too.
:31:10. > :31:12.I voted Remain and I've been open about that, but my top priority
:31:13. > :31:15.is about the economy and to ensure we still have an
:31:16. > :31:18.Theresa May has set out clear proposal to ensure we develop
:31:19. > :31:28.a trade relationship with Europe and make that a success.
:31:29. > :31:31.It means the Lib Dems and the Greens are the ones battling Brexit.
:31:32. > :31:34.Well, when the Lib Dem candidate is actually here.
:31:35. > :31:39.The candidate is a consultant cardiologist.
:31:40. > :31:42.He is actually at work today doing very important heart surgery.
:31:43. > :31:45.He will be back tomorrow, back on the campaign trail working hard.
:31:46. > :31:49.30% of people voted to Remain and nobody else
:31:50. > :31:53.is representing them, so, you know, it is still a live issue.
:31:54. > :31:54.It is still something people care about.
:31:55. > :31:57.We are only at the start of the Article 50 process
:31:58. > :32:02.We are very a clear that we are standing up for those
:32:03. > :32:05.who want to remain in the single market, who want to protect jobs
:32:06. > :32:10.Labour have taken people for granted in this area for a great many years.
:32:11. > :32:13.Ukip, I'm afraid, all Ukip can offer to politics is division.
:32:14. > :32:15.I've covered a lot of by-elections where Ukip have come second.
:32:16. > :32:18.We'll find out if they really got Labour on the ropes this
:32:19. > :32:38.And here is a full list of all the candidates standing
:32:39. > :32:49.in the Stoke-on-Trent Central by-election.
:32:50. > :32:58.They do atract lots of candidates. You can get that on the BBC website
:32:59. > :33:06.as well. I was trying to think back, here we have the main opposition
:33:07. > :33:07.party defending two seats in by-elections in the midterm of a
:33:08. > :33:15.government. All the speculation is where the
:33:16. > :33:20.opposition party can hold on, that is unprecedented. I can't give of an
:33:21. > :33:26.equivalent. You wouldn't just expect them to win seats they have held
:33:27. > :33:31.traditionally, you would expect hem to make inroads into seats held by
:33:32. > :33:35.the other party, I wonder if they fail to hold on to just one of
:33:36. > :33:41.these, whether it accelerates the momentum and criticism of the
:33:42. > :33:45.leadership of the moment. I think they are interesting constituencies.
:33:46. > :33:51.Matthew good win was talking about the left win coalition over the
:33:52. > :33:58.years, almost being too broad for its own good, including places like
:33:59. > :34:02.Primrose Hill and Hackney. Big university towns in Manchester,
:34:03. > :34:12.Bristol. Diverse ethnically and included places like Stoke which are
:34:13. > :34:17.more Conservative. With a small c. Less economically well-off, more
:34:18. > :34:20.diverse, can the left hang on to both bits of country. Recent
:34:21. > :34:24.evidence suggests it cannot and the opportunity for Ukip is to pick up
:34:25. > :34:28.the second of those two types of community, the Stokes and the cope
:34:29. > :34:32.lands. That what makes the by-elections interest I would
:34:33. > :34:37.suggest. It is not just about Mr Corbyn's future about which we hear
:34:38. > :34:41.too much, it is about this traditional Labour coalition, can it
:34:42. > :34:45.still survive, particularly in places like Stoke? Europe clearly is
:34:46. > :34:53.a test. I think it's a myth by the way that Labour are only split now,
:34:54. > :34:57.over Europe and it has always been a Tory problem, last time I was on I
:34:58. > :35:04.mentioned it. That is why we had a referendum in 75. That is why they
:35:05. > :35:09.had a round then. But they were in chaos behind the scenes over what
:35:10. > :35:14.they thought about the euro, skillful leadership can paper over
:35:15. > :35:18.the cracks, and to address the wider issue of whether we are now in an
:35:19. > :35:22.era where left right issues have disappeared, and there is more of a
:35:23. > :35:30.regional divide, if you take Europe out of the equation which you can't,
:35:31. > :35:33.but if you were able to, issues about health, transport housing do
:35:34. > :35:39.split more left-right than a regional divide, so I think there is
:35:40. > :35:44.still fundamental left-right issues, but Europe isn't one of them and
:35:45. > :35:48.Europe has to be managed by a Labour leader skill fully and evidently
:35:49. > :35:53.that hasn't happened now. How would you see the by-elections in the
:35:54. > :35:58.current political context? Labour should be walking them, it should be
:35:59. > :35:59.a sign of the March of the Labour Party taking on the current
:36:00. > :36:03.Conservative Government. I don't think they raise any questions about
:36:04. > :36:07.Corbyn's leadership because the people who put him in don't think
:36:08. > :36:12.that winning elections matter, you have to remember this will be the
:36:13. > :36:17.mainstream media, it will be our fault why any of those Labour
:36:18. > :36:20.candidates don't win, the thing that is interesting is whether there is
:36:21. > :36:24.is a role for Ukip. The argument after the referendum was Ukip has
:36:25. > :36:30.done its job, it got the referendum, nothing to see here, I remember
:36:31. > :36:36.speaking to put a Nuttall before he was Ukip leader, on the day after
:36:37. > :36:40.the battle and he said this is Year Zero, where Ukip starts now, and
:36:41. > :36:44.this, and this is the interesting thing, does, do we see this one
:36:45. > :36:48.particular party having a role in the future? And I think it is all to
:36:49. > :36:53.play for, they could not not have stood in this seat. They have to win
:36:54. > :36:56.it to be an electoral force. The Labour candidate in Copeland has
:36:57. > :37:00.made the NHS the issue for her in this, that goes into the left-right,
:37:01. > :37:06.are we spending enough, are we not? That will be a test of what you were
:37:07. > :37:09.saying to see if traditional left-right issue, which at the
:37:10. > :37:13.moment would play Labour's way I would suggest, are big enough to
:37:14. > :37:17.overcome all the things you have been talking about and Matthew has
:37:18. > :37:21.been talking about. Maybe at this particular junction they are not,
:37:22. > :37:27.but I don't think any of those issues will go away, and that is why
:37:28. > :37:33.I question whether we are see the end of a historic left-right divide.
:37:34. > :37:36.At the moment with Europe so prominent, clearly these
:37:37. > :37:40.by-elections are unusual. And they will be a test of leadership for
:37:41. > :37:44.Theresa May in the coming months if not at the moment, as they have been
:37:45. > :37:48.in a way that he hasn't risen to, for the Labour leader.
:37:49. > :37:52.We will be leave on BBC One on the night, February 23rd off back of
:37:53. > :37:54.this week, we will bring you the result of both these crucial
:37:55. > :37:58.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:59. > :38:01.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:02. > :38:04.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:38:05. > :38:14.Hello, I'm Martyn Oates. Politics where you are.
:38:15. > :38:17.Coming up on the Sunday Politics here in the South West:
:38:18. > :38:20.The new education funding formula adds up to less money for schools,
:38:21. > :38:27.And, for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by Conservative MP
:38:28. > :38:29.Sheryl Murray and Gareth Derrick from the Plymouth Labour Party.
:38:30. > :38:35.Theresa May's now famous definition of the JAMs,
:38:36. > :38:38.the Just About Managing, could be applied to local
:38:39. > :38:43.A survey by a local government think-tank
:38:44. > :38:45.has 94% of councils saying they're planning to increase
:38:46. > :38:48.council tax and what they charge for services.
:38:49. > :38:51.Councils in the south-west, like councils across the country,
:38:52. > :38:57.To make their budgets work, they are all putting up council tax,
:38:58. > :39:02.they are nearly all thinking about increasing charging,
:39:03. > :39:07.to green waste collection to cremations.
:39:08. > :39:24.These issues are as relevant in this region as anywhere else.
:39:25. > :39:27.Here, all our top-tier authorities are considering raising council tax,
:39:28. > :39:30.some by as much as 5%, with a large chunk of that
:39:31. > :39:34.Councils are still waiting to hear how much money they'll get
:39:35. > :39:37.from the government next financial year - but the Local Government
:39:38. > :39:39.Information Unit says most of them aren't confident it'll be enough
:39:40. > :39:45.You will be aware that your colleagues across the region are
:39:46. > :39:48.lining up to say that the government isn't putting enough into local
:39:49. > :39:53.authorities in terms of government grant. You are on the government
:39:54. > :39:58.payroll now, so do you have to say that everything is marvellous? The
:39:59. > :40:04.changes we are seeing, the four-year funding package that councils are
:40:05. > :40:09.going to get, allows them to plan better, which is quite right. I
:40:10. > :40:16.don't think anybody would object to paying a little bit extra council
:40:17. > :40:21.tax to cover social services. On the issue of how the funding is divided
:40:22. > :40:26.up, you will be well aware of something called the rural fair
:40:27. > :40:31.share campaign, where Cornish, Devon and Somerset MPs are leading, and
:40:32. > :40:35.they argue that there is a limited overall cake, but rural areas like
:40:36. > :40:42.in this region do not get a fair share of that. Let's look at
:40:43. > :40:46.Cornwall, for instance. There is the budget you get, and the way you use
:40:47. > :40:53.it. We've got Cornwall Council at the moment one by the Liberal
:40:54. > :40:58.Democrats and the independence, spending ?500,000 on a European city
:40:59. > :41:03.of culture, and that's not going to happen... To be fair, if you look at
:41:04. > :41:07.your conservative colleagues in places like Devon, they are also
:41:08. > :41:13.saying that they are not getting a fair share from the government. I am
:41:14. > :41:16.another full Cornwall, and I do believe that spending ?30,000 on an
:41:17. > :41:24.office in Brussels and applying for a city of culture Project, spending
:41:25. > :41:28.?500,000, which isn't going to happen until after we've left the
:41:29. > :41:38.EU, you have to manage the budget correctly. Have these councils got a
:41:39. > :41:41.point? Absolutely. My take on this is fundamentally different. We are
:41:42. > :41:46.not getting our fair share, and the big picture is worse. There is a
:41:47. > :41:52.very definite significant shift away from central government
:41:53. > :42:03.responsibility to local government responsibilities. What is the result
:42:04. > :42:09.of this budget reduction going to be? It is going to be a systematic
:42:10. > :42:13.form of discrimination in areas like the south-west, where we have
:42:14. > :42:16.relatively low wages and a relatively high number of elderly
:42:17. > :42:21.people. We are not going to be able to afford the care that other parts
:42:22. > :42:27.of the country have, which is very unfair, and a shift away what has
:42:28. > :42:28.happened over many years, a shift towards high quality public services
:42:29. > :42:30.for all. Almost two thirds of children
:42:31. > :42:32.in Devon will lose out under government proposals to change
:42:33. > :42:35.the way schools are funded, Pupils in Devon already receive ?290
:42:36. > :42:39.a year less than the national average, and there's been years
:42:40. > :42:41.of campaigning to improve on that. As one of the county's
:42:42. > :42:44.MPs put it recently, it wasn't expected that when change
:42:45. > :42:47.finally came it would And it's not just
:42:48. > :42:51.Devon that's affected. Does anyone remember the difference
:42:52. > :42:56.between the people that sat on either side of the room
:42:57. > :43:00.when we were having the debate? It's never too young to get
:43:01. > :43:04.engaged in current affairs. But this school is amongst hundreds
:43:05. > :43:08.across the region which is taking politics out of the classroom
:43:09. > :43:11.and direct to Westminster. 11 pupils like me are currently
:43:12. > :43:16.worth ?290 less than other pupils To make it fairer, the government
:43:17. > :43:32.is looking at changing They say we will be better
:43:33. > :43:36.off by a little bit. But Devon County Council has
:43:37. > :43:39.crunched the figures and it says, far from being better off,
:43:40. > :43:42.61.9% of children will lose out. Why should a Devon child be worth
:43:43. > :43:45.that much less than somebody The government's got
:43:46. > :43:48.to do something about it. Meetings between headteachers
:43:49. > :43:50.and union representatives have been taking place all over the country
:43:51. > :43:53.to put pressure on the government They claim the region's
:43:54. > :43:57.schools could be more than ?105 million worse off
:43:58. > :44:02.within the next three years. They say this is because of rises
:44:03. > :44:07.in inflation, and lastly,
:44:08. > :44:17.the apprenticeship levy, which is all likely
:44:18. > :44:21.to result in fewer teachers We've cut right the way back
:44:22. > :44:28.in recent years anyway. The only things left
:44:29. > :44:29.to cut, unfortunately, That's why headteachers across Devon
:44:30. > :44:37.and Cornwall are sending out letters to parents asking them to get
:44:38. > :44:41.involved and write to their MP. It would really help
:44:42. > :44:44.if everyone wrote and made You can't sit there and say
:44:45. > :44:50.it is the schools' job to do it. Your children go there, so you've
:44:51. > :44:52.got a bit of a responsibility to make sure you support
:44:53. > :44:55.the school your children go to. The more pressure we put on,
:44:56. > :44:58.hopefully, the more action The government, however,
:44:59. > :45:01.says this new formula What we are trying to do is make
:45:02. > :45:07.sure that every single child, wherever they are growing up
:45:08. > :45:10.in England, gets the same amount of funding, and then a top-up
:45:11. > :45:13.in relation to additional needs, whether it's in relation
:45:14. > :45:16.to deprivation, which has been based on out-of-date data up until now,
:45:17. > :45:20.or additional funding Even Devon's Tory MPs
:45:21. > :45:25.are threatening to oppose If these proposals are adopted,
:45:26. > :45:29.we're going to have 15 primary schools gaining,
:45:30. > :45:34.20 losing out, and all the secondary This is clearly neither
:45:35. > :45:41.fair nor acceptable. The government has said that,
:45:42. > :45:46.under this new formula, schools in Devon, Cornwall,
:45:47. > :45:48.Somerset and Dorset will benefit. The consultation runs until March
:45:49. > :45:51.22nd, and it is keen to hear from parents,
:45:52. > :46:07.schools, governors - This is very similar to the argument
:46:08. > :46:12.about Council funding. What do you say to fellow conservatives like
:46:13. > :46:18.John Hart who say that these changes, astonishingly to them, are
:46:19. > :46:24.making the situation in places like Devon less fair? I would say,
:46:25. > :46:29.remember this is a consultation. It doesn't end until the middle of
:46:30. > :46:37.March, maybe the last week of March, and they have a chance to make their
:46:38. > :46:40.views known on the transitional situation, on the funding situation,
:46:41. > :46:48.and, at the end of the day, I also have to remember, from Cornwall's
:46:49. > :46:54.perspective, a portfolio holder for the children services himself has
:46:55. > :47:03.said that he sympathises with the Department for Education when he
:47:04. > :47:11.says the unions are basing their estimations on untrue or out of date
:47:12. > :47:14.that your conservative colleagues in that your conservative colleagues in
:47:15. > :47:19.the House of Commons or in local government are going to be putting
:47:20. > :47:23.total faith in data reduced by the unions. They have the same
:47:24. > :47:28.opportunity as me to go to the Minister and tell him what they
:47:29. > :47:32.feel, because we are in a consultation period. So you think
:47:33. > :47:37.the government might move on this? I think they are listening. We have to
:47:38. > :47:42.remember that authorities such as Cornwall have done very, very badly,
:47:43. > :47:47.and Westminster schools and other areas have done extremely well. And
:47:48. > :47:52.it's only right that fairness is what comes into it. Having a worse
:47:53. > :47:58.funding situation in Devon isn't addressing that. It is fairness. At
:47:59. > :48:05.the end of the day, I have to say that I do believe that the trade
:48:06. > :48:09.and unacceptable information, and it and unacceptable information, and it
:48:10. > :48:14.isn't right. I have read the same data and I have come to the same
:48:15. > :48:18.conclusion. It is fundamentally unfair that our children in Devon
:48:19. > :48:23.and Cornwall are getting around ?300 less a year. And it isn't being
:48:24. > :48:28.addressed. The idea of the consultation is to make it fairer
:48:29. > :48:32.for everybody. Isn't it astonishing that after several years of
:48:33. > :48:37.lobbying, the proposal on the table should be less fair for somewhere
:48:38. > :48:47.like Devon, which was at the bottom of the
:48:48. > :48:51.heap anyway. It is a consultation, so let's see what the proposals are.
:48:52. > :48:53.We have seen this formula with this government, where they promise
:48:54. > :49:00.something on one hand, and it disappears on the other, like tax
:49:01. > :49:07.credit and the National Living Wage. Identify the stats to my fingertips,
:49:08. > :49:12.but... To the end of the last Labour government, you had just begun a
:49:13. > :49:16.consultation. It wasn't addressed. Pupils in the south-west were
:49:17. > :49:23.treated very, very unfairly compared to other city areas, and we are
:49:24. > :49:27.trying to move to a fair system for everybody. It is quite right that
:49:28. > :49:34.you have to have transitional measures. The south-west has been
:49:35. > :49:41.unfairly treated for a long time. By your government. Possibly in the
:49:42. > :49:46.past, but something has to be done about it. Fair funding has to be
:49:47. > :49:52.delivered, and it is shameful that it isn't. It is a consultation, so
:49:53. > :49:54.let's see. It will remain a lively issue.
:49:55. > :49:57.The Government published a white paper this week aimed at fixing
:49:58. > :50:00.It calls for more affordable housing and for small developers
:50:01. > :50:04.That could be good news in the South Hams, which has some
:50:05. > :50:07.of the highest average house prices and rents in the country,
:50:08. > :50:12.But some fear it will just smooth the way for big profits for those
:50:13. > :50:15.who can build houses and sell them on the open market.
:50:16. > :50:18.Councils all over England are under pressure to build more houses.
:50:19. > :50:21.This is just the first phase of 5,500 homes which will eventually
:50:22. > :50:24.be built here at Sherford, effectively a new town sandwiched
:50:25. > :50:31.But the government wants more, and the South Hams is feeling
:50:32. > :50:40.Developers think, "Whay! We can do what we like."
:50:41. > :50:44.Alison Ansell is chair of the parish council here in Newton Ferrers.
:50:45. > :50:47.The village is an area of outstanding natural beauty,
:50:48. > :50:50.and on a heritage coast, yet, despite nearly 50
:50:51. > :50:54.objections and protestations from parish councillors,
:50:55. > :50:58.plans have just been approved for five new homes on this
:50:59. > :51:02.agricultural land at the west of the village.
:51:03. > :51:05.We're very much pro-development, but we want the sort of development
:51:06. > :51:09.that's going to improve life for our villagers and encourage
:51:10. > :51:16.At the moment, we've got a developers' open field day.
:51:17. > :51:20.Just up the road is a development of 15 affordable homes, much more
:51:21. > :51:23.in line with what the government and Alison would
:51:24. > :51:27.As chair of the Neighbourhood Plan steering group,
:51:28. > :51:31.Alison and the local community should be able to shape
:51:32. > :51:36.The whole point of doing the Neighbourhood Plan is we have
:51:37. > :51:39.been assured that this will be a legal document,
:51:40. > :51:43.and it will give us the ultimate say in what goes
:51:44. > :51:47.where and how it goes where - in all respects.
:51:48. > :51:51.And, basically, it can't happen soon enough, for me.
:51:52. > :51:55.This week's Housing White Paper is aimed at encouraging small
:51:56. > :51:59.developers to come forward and build more homes, but some fear the driver
:52:00. > :52:03.will be profit from properties built for the open market.
:52:04. > :52:06.There have been some disgraceful decisions taken lately.
:52:07. > :52:10.The reality is what the people of South Hams want,
:52:11. > :52:12.and the people I represent, are houses which they
:52:13. > :52:15.can genuinely afford, not ?350,000 houses,
:52:16. > :52:18.such as were agreed recently at a planning committee.
:52:19. > :52:22.South Hams District Council says affordable homes always have been
:52:23. > :52:29.The White Paper concentrates on building a mix of housing -
:52:30. > :52:38.rented, shared ownership and starter homes.
:52:39. > :52:41.That is what the White Paper concentrates on.
:52:42. > :52:45.It doesn't talk about market value, luxury houses which you are talking
:52:46. > :52:51.Both the parish council and the local MP, Gary Streeter,
:52:52. > :52:54.have now written to South Hams District Council, expressing
:52:55. > :52:57.their concerns that the views of local people and councillors
:52:58. > :53:00.in Newton Ferrers are not being taken into account.
:53:01. > :53:11.Whether or not the White Paper will change that remains to be seen.
:53:12. > :53:21.We are joined now by the architect, Peregrine Mears. You once did a
:53:22. > :53:25.stock take on this and realise that we spent more air time on this
:53:26. > :53:29.programme discussing affordable housing than anything else. Do you
:53:30. > :53:34.think this white paper takes us forward at all? I think it has some
:53:35. > :53:38.different aspects to it. The government wants to make more now
:53:39. > :53:43.and available for housing. Secondly, it is aimed at speeding up the
:53:44. > :53:49.process of delivering houses. Thirdly, there's an element of
:53:50. > :53:53.encouraging innovation. The problem with the whole planning system in
:53:54. > :53:59.this country is it is mired in bureaucracy. It slows down the whole
:54:00. > :54:02.process of delivering housing. It takes longer to get planning
:54:03. > :54:10.permission for a development than it does to build it. It's crazy. What
:54:11. > :54:13.happened to the presumption of sustainable development, as it was
:54:14. > :54:18.called a few years ago? The government then was saying that they
:54:19. > :54:22.needed to speed up the planning process. That is still in the
:54:23. > :54:28.national planning framework, but it is a vague aim. What local planning
:54:29. > :54:38.authorities want is more resources and a clearer definition of what
:54:39. > :54:41.they can and cannot approve. I can remember Labour ministers, coalition
:54:42. > :54:47.ministers, saying that we must really knuckle down and get on with
:54:48. > :54:52.this, free up the planning system, tell people that building is
:54:53. > :54:58.necessary. Still the problem remains that this is issued obstacle.
:54:59. > :55:07.190,000 new homes were built last year, and the need was around 220
:55:08. > :55:15.5000. We can't go on like this. With this housing bill, we will not only
:55:16. > :55:23.see what Peregrine has outlined, but it is also looking at utilising very
:55:24. > :55:26.sure they go up quickly. The sure they go up quickly. The
:55:27. > :55:29.government have said they will release land themselves to enable
:55:30. > :55:37.some of these houses to be built. Local plans, which of course
:55:38. > :55:43.Peregrine didn't allude to, but they form part of the planning law. We
:55:44. > :55:48.have been talking about neighbourhood plans for a long time
:55:49. > :55:55.now as well. They should be in place now. Local government has dragged
:55:56. > :55:59.its heels. What the bill says is they have to be reviewed every five
:56:00. > :56:05.years so that they are updated with the actual requirements. I don't
:56:06. > :56:11.think we should blame local councils too much. Plymouth has 10,000 homes
:56:12. > :56:15.ready to go, but they are not being taken forward by the builders. This
:56:16. > :56:19.is a sort of U-turn by the government, bringing in some very
:56:20. > :56:26.welcome policies that Labour was talking about in the past. Lovely to
:56:27. > :56:29.hear a Labour person say that! But one or two things are missing,
:56:30. > :56:33.especially when the focus is on social housing. The government has
:56:34. > :56:38.failed to reintroduce the social housing grant that was cut five
:56:39. > :56:42.years ago. I think you will find that there is an element in the bill
:56:43. > :56:47.to say that local authorities will have the ability to be able to
:56:48. > :56:53.provide houses to rent at realistic rates. I would like to see that
:56:54. > :56:59.reinstated, because it is a really important factor in the viability of
:57:00. > :57:04.social housing. The other thing is that councils are captain the amount
:57:05. > :57:11.to borrow to build social housing. This would not cost the government
:57:12. > :57:16.money. Michael Portillo was advocating this last night, of all
:57:17. > :57:21.people. The bill does include a protection for tenants in private
:57:22. > :57:28.rented accommodation. It isn't always new builds. It's utilising
:57:29. > :57:33.empty homes. It is utilising other buildings that can be converted. In
:57:34. > :57:39.terms of housing to buy, what is defined as a first-time buyer is
:57:40. > :57:47.someone commanding less than ?80,000 and buying a house worth less than
:57:48. > :57:54.?250,000. We have to make sure that people's wages increase and that the
:57:55. > :57:59.economy improves. But that will not happen in constituencies like yours.
:58:00. > :58:03.You are on another planet. I am optimistic that the economy of South
:58:04. > :58:07.East Cornwall is growing, and people will be better off with that, and
:58:08. > :58:14.will find that some houses are more affordable. To wrap up, Peregrine,
:58:15. > :58:18.what would you do? We would like to see the planning system streamlined
:58:19. > :58:21.completely to make the process quicker and easier, so local
:58:22. > :58:27.authorities could adopt design codes to allow housing of a certain type
:58:28. > :58:30.and density to be built. They could reduce the amount of red tape
:58:31. > :58:35.involved in the planning stage, so that developers could get on quickly
:58:36. > :58:39.and they can secure funding and the whole process can be delivered more
:58:40. > :58:42.quickly. It will not be the last time we discussed this.
:58:43. > :58:46.Now our regular round-up of the political week in 60 seconds.
:58:47. > :58:50.No, not the occupants of the House of Commons.
:58:51. > :58:55.The seagulls a Plymouth MP says need to be brought under control.
:58:56. > :58:59.This is an important matter, and I hope the government will act
:59:00. > :59:05.before someone is really hurt, yet again, by an aggressive seagull.
:59:06. > :59:08.Meanwhile, Westminster comes - almost - to the seaside,
:59:09. > :59:12.as the cross-party Brexit committee hears evidence in Truro.
:59:13. > :59:16.Devon and Cornwall Police is criticised for under-recording
:59:17. > :59:21.What's important to emphasise is that the victims of crime
:59:22. > :59:24.remain at the heart of what we do here in Devon and Cornwall.
:59:25. > :59:28.The historic states of Jersey could end centuries of tradition
:59:29. > :59:33.and rename itself "the government" to avoid confusing people.
:59:34. > :59:36.And claims that plans to build a garden suburb in Taunton
:59:37. > :59:43.The much-trumpeted Taunton Garden Town could well turn out
:59:44. > :00:02.Gareth, as a former naval office, I imagine seagulls hold no fears for
:00:03. > :00:08.you. This is a serious problem, isn't it? It is a serious problem, I
:00:09. > :00:14.agree. And Plymouth has done a lot of work on it. I'm sure many other
:00:15. > :00:19.places have to. It is interesting because they have tried to sort it
:00:20. > :00:23.out through many ways - contraception, removing eggs and so
:00:24. > :00:29.on. But the thing that has proven to be at the heart of this problem time
:00:30. > :00:33.and time again is waste food being left out through various avenues.
:00:34. > :00:38.Maybe it isn't being collected enough. It was very interesting to
:00:39. > :00:45.hear Oliver Cromwell criticising the Council for their plans. It has been
:00:46. > :00:48.councillor, Martin. One of the councillor, Martin. One of the
:00:49. > :00:53.things I would point out is there are a number of things in place now
:00:54. > :00:59.that councils can use to address this problem. Cornwall Council are
:01:00. > :01:03.pro founding seagull proves sacks for your rubbish. We will leave it
:01:04. > :01:05.there now. After the excitement and late nights
:01:06. > :01:16.in the Commons last week, MPs are having a little break this
:01:17. > :01:19.week as we head into But there's still plenty
:01:20. > :01:23.in the diary in the near future - let's just remind ourselves of some
:01:24. > :01:37.key upcoming dates. There they are. We have the two
:01:38. > :01:41.by-elections on February 23rd. The budget is 8th March. That will be
:01:42. > :01:43.the last spring budget under this Government because it moves to the
:01:44. > :02:02.autumn. That round of French elections
:02:03. > :02:07.narrows the candidates, probably about eight or nine, down to two,
:02:08. > :02:13.the two who come first and second, then go into a play off round on May
:02:14. > :02:19.7th. That will determine the next President. Steve, listening to
:02:20. > :02:23.Oliver Letwin and to the Labour leader in the House of Lords, is
:02:24. > :02:28.there any way you think that end of March deadline for Mrs May could be
:02:29. > :02:32.in jeopardy? No, I don't. Andrew Smith couldn't have been clearer
:02:33. > :02:36.with you they would do nothing to block not just Article 50 but that
:02:37. > :02:42.timetable, so I would be surprised if they don't make it. Given her,
:02:43. > :02:48.Theresa May's explicit determination to do so, not to do so would have
:02:49. > :02:53.become a problem for her, I think one way or another... No before this
:02:54. > :02:56.vote last week there was a vote nor the deadline, to agree the deadline
:02:57. > :03:01.by all sides. Plain sailing do you think? There is no serious
:03:02. > :03:04.Parliamentary resistance and it would be a personal embarrassment, I
:03:05. > :03:08.think for the Prime Minister to name the the end of March as the deadline
:03:09. > :03:13.and to miss it, unless she has a good excuse. I I reckon it will
:03:14. > :03:17.change the atmosphere of politics for the next two years, as soon as
:03:18. > :03:21.the negotiations begin, people in our profession will hunt for any
:03:22. > :03:25.detail and inside information we can find, thing also be leaked, I think
:03:26. > :03:29.from the European side from time to time, it will dominate the headlines
:03:30. > :03:34.for a solid two years and change politics. Let me just raise a
:03:35. > :03:39.possible, a dark cloud. No bigger than man's hand, that can complicate
:03:40. > :03:44.the timetable, because the Royal Assent on the current timetable has
:03:45. > :03:48.to come round the 13th. I would suggest that the Prime Minister
:03:49. > :03:54.can't trigger that until she does get the Royal Assent. If there is a
:03:55. > :03:58.bit of ping-pong that could delay that by receive day, the last thing
:03:59. > :04:04.the Europeans would want, they have another big meeting at the end of
:04:05. > :04:09.March which is the 60th anniversary of the Treaty of Rome. They don't
:04:10. > :04:15.want Article 50 to land on the table... It would infuriate
:04:16. > :04:19.everybody. My guess is she will have done it by then, this is between the
:04:20. > :04:24.Commons and the Lords, I mean Andrew Smith couldn't have been clearer,
:04:25. > :04:31.that they might send something back but they didn't expect a kind of a
:04:32. > :04:36.long play over this, so. The Liberal Democrats, they are almost an
:04:37. > :04:41.irrelevance in the Commons but not the Lords, they feel differently.
:04:42. > :04:45.Now, we don't know yet what the European Union negotiating position
:04:46. > :04:47.is going to be, we don't know because there are several crucial
:04:48. > :04:52.elections taking place, the Dutch taking place in March and then the
:04:53. > :04:57.one we put up, the French, and, at the moment, the French one is, it
:04:58. > :05:03.seems like it is coming down, to a play-off in the second round between
:05:04. > :05:10.Madame Le Pen who could come first in the first round and this Blairite
:05:11. > :05:15.figure, independent, centre-leftish Mr Macron, he may well get through
:05:16. > :05:20.and that, and the outcome of that will be an important determine napt
:05:21. > :05:25.on our negotiations. -- determinant. You o couldn't have two more
:05:26. > :05:29.different candidate, you have a national a front candidate and on
:05:30. > :05:36.the other hand the closest thing France could have you to a liberal
:05:37. > :05:40.President. With a small l. A reformist liberal President. It
:05:41. > :05:48.would be the most French thing in the world to elect someone who while
:05:49. > :05:53.the rest of the world is elected elitist, to elect someone who is the
:05:54. > :06:00.son of a teacher, who has liberal views, is a member of the French
:06:01. > :06:08.elite. It would be a thing for them to elect a man like that which I why
:06:09. > :06:13.I see them doing it. If it is Le Pen, Brexit becomes a minor
:06:14. > :06:17.sideshow, if it is Le Pen, the future of the European Union is?
:06:18. > :06:24.Danger, regardless of whether we are were in or out. I suggest if it is
:06:25. > :06:28.Mr Macron that presents some problems. He doesn't have his own
:06:29. > :06:32.party. He won't have a majority in the French assembly, he is untried
:06:33. > :06:37.and untested. He wants to do a number of things that will be
:06:38. > :06:44.unpopular which is why a number of people close to Mrs Le Pen tell me
:06:45. > :06:53.that she has her eye on 2022. She thinks lit go to hell in a hand
:06:54. > :06:58.basket under Mr Macron. He hasn't got the experience. What I find
:06:59. > :07:02.fascinating. It is not just all to play for in France, it is the fact
:07:03. > :07:08.what happens in France and Germany, not so much Holland I think but
:07:09. > :07:17.Germany later on in the year, how much it impacts what we are going to
:07:18. > :07:25.get. How much which ex #i78 panting on them. And at the time we are
:07:26. > :07:28.trying to, withdrawing ourself from European politics it is fascinating
:07:29. > :07:34.how much it will affect us. You see what Matthew was talking about
:07:35. > :07:37.earlier in the show, that what we do know, almost for sure, is that the
:07:38. > :07:42.socialist candidate will not get through to the second round. He
:07:43. > :07:46.could come firth but the centre-right candidate. If we were
:07:47. > :07:50.discussing that monthing a we would say it between teen the centre-right
:07:51. > :07:56.and the national fronts. We are to saying that. Matthew good win who
:07:57. > :08:00.spent a time in France isn't sure Le Pen will get into the second round,
:08:01. > :08:08.which is interesting. It is, I mean, it is going to be as important for
:08:09. > :08:11.the future of the European Union, as in retrospect the British 2015
:08:12. > :08:15.general election was, if Labour had got in there would have been no
:08:16. > :08:20.referendum. That referendum has transformed the European Union
:08:21. > :08:24.because we are leaving and the French election is significant. We
:08:25. > :08:31.will be live from Paris on April 23rd on the day France goings to the
:08:32. > :08:34.first round of polls. Tom Watson, he was on The Andrew Marr Show earlier
:08:35. > :08:39.today, was asked about Mr Corbyn, this is what he had to say.
:08:40. > :08:42.We had a damaging second leadership election, so we've got
:08:43. > :08:46.The polls aren't great for us, but I'm determined now we've got
:08:47. > :08:49.the leadership settled for this parliament, that we can focus
:08:50. > :08:51.on developing a very positive clear message to the British people
:08:52. > :09:07.So Julia, I don't know who are you are giggling. I find it untenable
:09:08. > :09:12.that, he is a very good media performer and he comes on and he is
:09:13. > :09:15.sitting there so well, you know, things are bad but don't worry we
:09:16. > :09:20.are looking at what we can do to win 2020. The idea that Tony Blair and
:09:21. > :09:25.Gordon Brown were sitting in their offices or on TV screens at this
:09:26. > :09:29.time in the electoral cycle thinking well I wonder if we can come up with
:09:30. > :09:37.a policy the British people might like. It is a nonsense, this is
:09:38. > :09:45.Tuesday night book zlufb. I am going to ask you the question I was going
:09:46. > :09:51.to before. I would suggest that he the right. The deputy Labour leader
:09:52. > :09:55.Tom Watson is violent the leadership is settled, with one caveat, unless
:09:56. > :10:01.the Corbynistas themselves to decide to move on Mr Corbyn, if the left of
:10:02. > :10:06.the Labour Party decides then it is not settled. Settled. If that
:10:07. > :10:10.doesn't happen that is That would be the worst situation if you are a
:10:11. > :10:16.Labour moderate. The Corbynistas would be saying the problem is no
:10:17. > :10:22.Corbynism, it is Corbyn himself, if we a younger person leading the
:10:23. > :10:25.process we can win the next general election, which means you have
:10:26. > :10:33.another itration of this, another five year experiment. And that is
:10:34. > :10:38.worst of all. If you are a Labour moderate, what you want is Jeremy
:10:39. > :10:42.Corbyn contest the next general election, possibly loses badly and
:10:43. > :10:47.then a Labour not moderate runs for the leadership saying we have tried
:10:48. > :10:51.your way, the worst would be Corbyn going, and a younger seven version
:10:52. > :10:57.of him trying and the experiment being extended. I see no easy way
:10:58. > :11:02.out of this. That is why he radiated the enthusiasm of someone in a
:11:03. > :11:08.hostage video in that interview. Maybe he has the Stockholm Syndrome
:11:09. > :11:12.now. The Labour moderates have had their day in the sun, two days in
:11:13. > :11:17.the sun and they lost. I suggest they are not going to try for the
:11:18. > :11:23.hat-trick again. Is there any indication that on the more Corbyn
:11:24. > :11:29.wing of the Labour Party, there is now doubts about their man. Yes,
:11:30. > :11:34.just to translate Tom Watson, what he meant was I Tom Watson am not
:11:35. > :11:39.going to get involved in another attempted coup. I tried it and it
:11:40. > :11:44.was a catastrophe. That is question enhe says it is set selled. It is
:11:45. > :11:50.because there is speculation on a daily basis. I disagree, Julia said
:11:51. > :11:55.I think this lot don't care about winning, I think they do. If the
:11:56. > :12:00.current position continue, one of two things will happen. Either
:12:01. > :12:05.Jeremy Corbyn will decide himself will decide he doesn't want to carry
:12:06. > :12:10.on. He half enjoys I it and half hates it. Finds it a strain. If that
:12:11. > :12:18.doesn't happen there will be some people round him who will say, look,
:12:19. > :12:22.this isn't working. There is another three-and-a-half years. There is a
:12:23. > :12:27.long way to go. I can't see it lasting in this way with politics in
:12:28. > :12:33.a state of flux, Tories will be under pressure in the coming two
:12:34. > :12:37.years, to have opinion polls at this level, I think is unsustainable.
:12:38. > :12:41.Final thought from you.? Yes, the idea it St another three-and-a-half
:12:42. > :12:46.years is just madness, but the people we are putting up at
:12:47. > :12:51.replacement for Jeremy Corbyn, and they have been focus grouping them.
:12:52. > :12:53.Most members wouldn't know who most of people were let alone most of the
:12:54. > :13:02.public. Angela rain? They are not
:13:03. > :13:07.overwhelmed with leadership potential at the moment. Very
:13:08. > :13:09.diplomatically put. Neither are the Tories, but they happened to have
:13:10. > :13:13.one at the moment. All right. That is it.
:13:14. > :13:16.Now, there's no Daily or Sunday Politics for the next week
:13:17. > :13:20.But the Daily Politics will be back on Monday 20th February and I'll be
:13:21. > :13:24.back here with the Sunday Politics on the 26th.
:13:25. > :13:26.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics...
:13:27. > :14:08.Just back from a very long shift at work...
:14:09. > :14:14.The staff are losing - they're just giving in.
:14:15. > :14:20.Panorama goes undercover to reveal the real cost