26/02/2017

:00:40. > :00:45.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:46. > :00:45.Theresa May still has plenty on her plate,

:00:46. > :00:48.not least a battle over Brexit in the Lords.

:00:49. > :00:49.But after Thursday's by-election win in Copeland,

:00:50. > :00:51.the Prime Minister looks stronger than ever.

:00:52. > :00:53.Jeremy Corbyn's Labour saw off Ukip in this week's other by-election,

:00:54. > :00:56.but losing to the Tories in a heartland seat leaves the party

:00:57. > :01:06.The leader of Scottish Labour joins me live.

:01:07. > :01:11.You look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden!

:01:12. > :01:14.And Donald Trump may have been mocked for talking about the impact

:01:15. > :01:16.of migration on Sweden, but after riots in Stockholm this

:01:17. > :01:19.In the South West: The mentally ill teenagers demanding politicians

:01:20. > :01:26.And children's services facing spending cuts

:01:27. > :01:30.In London, will the rise in council tax in all but four local

:01:31. > :01:36.authorities be enough to alleviate the crisis in social care?

:01:37. > :01:39.And joining me for all of that, three journalists who I'm pleased

:01:40. > :01:47.to say have so far not been banned from the White House.

:01:48. > :01:51.I've tried banning them from this show repeatedly,

:01:52. > :01:54.but somehow they just keep getting past BBC security - it's Sam Coates,

:01:55. > :02:05.We have had two crucial by-elections, the results last

:02:06. > :02:09.Thursday night. It's now Sunday morning, where do they believe

:02:10. > :02:13.British politics? I think it leaves British politics looking as if it

:02:14. > :02:18.may go ahead without Ukip is a strong and robust force. It is

:02:19. > :02:23.difficult to see from where we are now how Ukip rebuilds into a

:02:24. > :02:28.credible vote winning operation. I think it looks unprofessional, the

:02:29. > :02:32.campaign they fought in Stoke was clearly winnable because the margin

:02:33. > :02:36.with which Labour held onto that seat was not an impressive one but

:02:37. > :02:40.they put forward arguably the wrong candidate, it was messy and it's

:02:41. > :02:44.hard to see where they go from here, particularly with the money problems

:02:45. > :02:50.they have and even Nigel Farage saying he's fed up of the party. If

:02:51. > :02:57.Isabel is right, if Ukip is no longer a major factor, you look at

:02:58. > :03:02.the state of Labour and the Lib Dems coming from a long way behind

:03:03. > :03:06.despite their local government by-election successes, Tories never

:03:07. > :03:10.more dominant. I think Theresa May is in a fascinating situation. She's

:03:11. > :03:16.the most powerful Prime Minister of modern times for now because she

:03:17. > :03:21.faces no confident, formidable opposition. Unlike Margaret Thatcher

:03:22. > :03:25.who in the 1980s, although she won landslides in the end, often looked

:03:26. > :03:31.like she was in trouble. She was inferred quite often in the build-up

:03:32. > :03:38.to the election. David Owen, Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams. And quite

:03:39. > :03:43.often she was worried. At the moment Theresa May faces no formidable UK

:03:44. > :03:47.opposition. However, she is both strong and fragile because her

:03:48. > :03:51.agenda is Brexit, which I still think many have not got to grips

:03:52. > :03:57.with in terms of how complex and training and difficult it will be

:03:58. > :04:02.for her. Thatcher faced no equivalent to Brexit so she is both

:04:03. > :04:06.strong, formidably strong because of the wider UK political context, and

:04:07. > :04:11.very fragile. It is just when you think you have never been more

:04:12. > :04:16.dominant you are actually at the most dangerous, what can possibly go

:04:17. > :04:19.wrong? I think that the money of her MPs they haven't begun to think

:04:20. > :04:24.through the practicalities of Brexit and she does have a working majority

:04:25. > :04:27.of about 17 in the House of Commons so at any point she could be put

:04:28. > :04:31.under pressure from really opposition these days is done by the

:04:32. > :04:38.two wins inside the Conservative Party, either the 15 Europhiles or

:04:39. > :04:41.the bigger group of about 60 Brexiteers who have continued to

:04:42. > :04:46.operate as a united and disciplined force within the Conservative Party

:04:47. > :04:49.to get their agenda on the table. Either of those wings could be

:04:50. > :04:53.disappointed at any point in the next three and a half years and that

:04:54. > :04:59.would put her under pressure. I wouldn't completely rule out Ukip

:05:00. > :05:03.coming back. The reason Ukip lost in Stoke I think it's because at the

:05:04. > :05:10.moment Theresa May is delivering pretty much everything Ukip figures

:05:11. > :05:13.might want to see. We might find the phrase Brexit means Brexit quite

:05:14. > :05:16.anodyne but I think she is convincing people she will press

:05:17. > :05:22.ahead with their agenda and deliver the leave vote that people buy a

:05:23. > :05:26.slim majority voted for. Should that change, should there be talk of

:05:27. > :05:30.transition periods, shut the migration settlement not make people

:05:31. > :05:34.happy, then I think Ukip risks charging back up the centre ground

:05:35. > :05:39.and causing more problems in future. That could be a two year gap in

:05:40. > :05:42.which Ukip would have to survive. As I said, Ukip is on our agenda for

:05:43. > :05:44.today. Thursday was a big night

:05:45. > :05:46.for political obsessives like us, with not one but two

:05:47. > :05:50.significant by-elections, Ellie braved the wind and rain

:05:51. > :05:58.to bring you this report. The clouds had gathered,

:05:59. > :06:03.the winds blew at gale force. Was a change in the air, or just

:06:04. > :06:07.a weather system called Doris? Voters in Stoke-on-Trent

:06:08. > :06:10.were about to find out. It's here, a sports hall

:06:11. > :06:14.on a Thursday night that the country's media reckon

:06:15. > :06:20.is the true eye of the storm. Would Labour suffer a lightning

:06:21. > :06:23.strike to its very heart, or would the Ukip threat proved

:06:24. > :06:25.to be a damp squib? Everybody seems to think the result

:06:26. > :06:28.in Stoke-on-Trent would be close, just as they did 150-odd miles away

:06:29. > :06:32.in Copeland, where the Tories are counting on stealing another

:06:33. > :06:36.Labour heartland seat. Areas of high pressure in both

:06:37. > :06:44.places, and some strange sights. We knew this wasn't a normal

:06:45. > :06:47.by-election, and to prove it there is the rapper,

:06:48. > :06:49.Professor Green. Chart-toppers aside,

:06:50. > :06:52.winner of Stoke-on-Trent hit parade was announced first,

:06:53. > :06:54.where everyone was so excited the candidates didn't even make it

:06:55. > :06:58.onto the stage for the result. And I do hereby declare

:06:59. > :07:02.that the said Gareth Snell Nigel Farage has said that victory

:07:03. > :07:10.here in Stoke-on-Trent But Ukip's newish leader

:07:11. > :07:16.played down the defeat, insisting his party's

:07:17. > :07:19.time would come. Are you going to stand again

:07:20. > :07:25.as an MP or has this No doubt I will stand again,

:07:26. > :07:28.don't worry about that. The politics of hope beat

:07:29. > :07:37.the politics of fear. I think Ukip are the ones this

:07:38. > :07:40.weekend who have got But a few minutes later,

:07:41. > :07:46.it turned out Labour had Harrison, Trudy Lynn,

:07:47. > :07:49.the Conservative Party That was more than 2,000

:07:50. > :08:01.votes ahead of Labour. What has happened here tonight

:08:02. > :08:05.is a truly historic event. Labour were disappointed,

:08:06. > :08:07.but determined to be optimistic At a point when we're 15 to 18

:08:08. > :08:19.points behind in the polls... The Conservatives within 2000 votes

:08:20. > :08:23.I think is an incredible The morning after the night

:08:24. > :08:27.before, the losing parties were licking their wounds

:08:28. > :08:31.and their lips over breakfast. For years and years,

:08:32. > :08:35.Ukip was Nigel Farage, That has now changed,

:08:36. > :08:41.that era has gone. It's a new era, it is

:08:42. > :08:44.a second age for us. So that needs to be

:08:45. > :08:49.more fully embedded, it needs to be more defined,

:08:50. > :08:51.you know, and that will We have to continue to improve

:08:52. > :09:00.in seats where we have stood. As we have done here,

:09:01. > :09:03.we've improved on our 2015 result, that's what important,

:09:04. > :09:05.is that we are taking steps Can I be the first to come

:09:06. > :09:10.here today to congratulate you on being elected the new MP

:09:11. > :09:13.for Stoke on Trent Central. Jeremy Corbyn has just arrived

:09:14. > :09:16.in Stoke to welcome his newest MP. Not sure he's going to

:09:17. > :09:21.Copeland later though. Earlier in the day, the Labour

:09:22. > :09:25.leader had made clear he'd considered and discounted some

:09:26. > :09:27.theories about the party's Since you found out that you'd lost

:09:28. > :09:33.a seat to a governing party for the first time

:09:34. > :09:36.since the Falklands War, have you at any point this morning

:09:37. > :09:40.looked in the mirror and asked yourself this question -

:09:41. > :09:44.could the problem actually be me? In the end it was the Conservatives

:09:45. > :09:52.who came out on top. No governing party has made

:09:53. > :09:54.a gain at a by-election With the self-styled people's army

:09:55. > :10:00.of Ukip halted in Stoke, and Labour's wash-out

:10:01. > :10:05.here in Copeland... There's little chance of rain

:10:06. > :10:16.on Theresa May's parade. In the wake of that loss in

:10:17. > :10:19.Copeland, the Scottish Labour Party has been meeting for its spring

:10:20. > :10:21.conference in the Yesterday, deputy leader Tom Watson

:10:22. > :10:26.warned delegates that unless Labour took the by-election defeat

:10:27. > :10:28.seriously, the party's devastation in Scotland could be repeated

:10:29. > :10:31.south of the border. Well, I'm joined now

:10:32. > :10:47.by the leader of Scottish Labour, Even after your party had lost

:10:48. > :10:51.Copeland to the Tories and with Labour now trailing 16 points in the

:10:52. > :10:56.UK polls, you claim to have every faith that Jeremy Corbyn would

:10:57. > :11:03.absolutely win the general election. What evidence can you bring to

:11:04. > :11:06.support that? There is no doubt the result in Copeland was disappointing

:11:07. > :11:09.for the Labour Party and I think it's a collective feeling for

:11:10. > :11:13.everyone within the Labour Party and I want to do what I can to turn

:11:14. > :11:16.around the fortunes of our party. That's what I've committed to do

:11:17. > :11:23.while I have been the Scottish Labour leader. This two years ago we

:11:24. > :11:27.were down the mines so to speak in terms of losing the faith of working

:11:28. > :11:31.class communities across the country, but we listened very hard

:11:32. > :11:35.to the message voters are sending and responded to it. That's what I'm

:11:36. > :11:41.committed to doing in Scotland and that's what Jeremy Corbyn is

:11:42. > :11:46.committed to doing UK wide. The latest polls put Labour at 14% in

:11:47. > :11:52.Scotland, the Tories at ten points ahead of you in Scotland, even

:11:53. > :11:58.Theresa May is more popular than Jeremy Corbyn in Scotland. So I will

:11:59. > :12:02.try again - why are you so sure Jeremy Corbyn could win a general

:12:03. > :12:06.election? What I said when you are talking about Scotland is that I'm

:12:07. > :12:10.the leader of the Scottish Labour Party and I take responsibility for

:12:11. > :12:13.our policies here. Voters said very clearly after the Scottish

:12:14. > :12:17.Parliament election that they didn't have a clear enough sense of what we

:12:18. > :12:21.stood for so I have been advocating a very strong anti-austerity

:12:22. > :12:25.platform, coming up with ideas of how we can oppose the cuts and

:12:26. > :12:28.invest in our future. That is something Jeremy Corbyn also

:12:29. > :12:35.supports but I've also made it clear this weekend that we are opposed to

:12:36. > :12:38.a second independence referendum. I want to bring Scotland back together

:12:39. > :12:44.by focusing on the future and that's why I have been speaking about the

:12:45. > :12:47.federal solution for the UK. I know that Jeremy Corbyn shares that

:12:48. > :12:51.ambition because he is backing the plans for a people's Constitutional

:12:52. > :12:58.Convention. Yes, these are difficult times for the Scottish Labour Party

:12:59. > :13:04.and UK family, but I have a plan in place to turn things around. It will

:13:05. > :13:08.take time though. I'm still not sure why you are so sure the Labour party

:13:09. > :13:13.can win but let me come onto your plan. You want a UK wide

:13:14. > :13:19.Constitutional Convention and that lead to a new Federalist settlement.

:13:20. > :13:26.Is it the policy of the Labour Shadow Cabinet in Westminster to

:13:27. > :13:30.carve England into federal regions? What we support at a UK wide level

:13:31. > :13:33.is the people's constitutional convention. I have been careful to

:13:34. > :13:37.prescribe what I think is in the best interests of Scotland but not

:13:38. > :13:42.to dictate to other parts of the UK what is good for them, that's the

:13:43. > :13:47.point of the people's constitutional convention. You heard Tom Watson say

:13:48. > :13:50.there has to be a UK wide conversation about power, who has it

:13:51. > :13:54.and how it is exercised across England. England hasn't been part of

:13:55. > :14:00.this devolution story over the last 20 years, it is something that

:14:01. > :14:04.happened between Scotland and London or Wales and London. No wonder

:14:05. > :14:07.people in England feel disenfranchised from that. What

:14:08. > :14:13.evidence can you bring to show there is any appetite in England for an

:14:14. > :14:18.English federal solution to England, to carve England into federal

:14:19. > :14:21.regions? Have you spoken to John Prescott about this? He might tell

:14:22. > :14:27.you some of the difficulties. There's not even a debate about that

:14:28. > :14:31.here, Kezia Dugdale, it is fantasy. I speak to John Prescott regularly.

:14:32. > :14:35.What there is a debate about is the idea the world is changing so fast

:14:36. > :14:38.that globalisation is taking jobs away from communities in the

:14:39. > :14:43.north-east, that many working class communities feel left behind, that

:14:44. > :14:46.Westminster feels very far away and the politicians within it feel

:14:47. > :14:50.remote in part of the establishment. People are fed up with power being

:14:51. > :14:53.exercised somewhere else, that's where I think federalism comes in

:14:54. > :14:58.because it's about bringing power closer to people and in many ways

:14:59. > :15:06.it's forced on us because of Brexit. We know the United Kingdom is

:15:07. > :15:09.leaving the European Union so we have to talk about the repatriation

:15:10. > :15:12.of those powers from Brussels to Britain. I want many of those powers

:15:13. > :15:14.to go to the Scottish parliament but where should they go in the English

:15:15. > :15:18.context? It is not as things currently stand the policy of the

:15:19. > :15:19.English Labour Party to carve England into federal regions,

:15:20. > :15:29.correct? It is absolutely the policy of the

:15:30. > :15:33.UK Labour Party to support the people's Constitutional convention

:15:34. > :15:38.to examining these questions. I think it is really important. You're

:15:39. > :15:42.promising the Scottish people a federal solution, and you have not

:15:43. > :15:47.even squared your own party for a federal solution in England. That is

:15:48. > :15:50.not true. The UK Labour Party is united on this. I am going to

:15:51. > :15:55.Cardiff next month to meet with Carwyn Jones and various leaders.

:15:56. > :15:59.United on a federal solution? You know as well as I know it is not

:16:00. > :16:04.united on a federal solution. We will have a conversation about power

:16:05. > :16:27.in this country. It is not united on that

:16:28. > :16:31.issue? This is the direction of travel. It is what you heard

:16:32. > :16:33.yesterday from Sadiq Khan, from Tom Watson, when you hear from people

:16:34. > :16:36.like Nick Forbes who lead Newcastle City Council and Labour's Local

:16:37. > :16:38.Government Association. There is an appetite for talking about power.

:16:39. > :16:40.Talking is one thing. We need to have this conversation across the

:16:41. > :16:42.whole of the United Kingdom, to have a reformed United Kingdom. It is a

:16:43. > :16:45.conversation you're offering Scotland, not the policy. Let's come

:16:46. > :16:47.onto the labour made of London. He was in power for your conference. He

:16:48. > :16:50.wrote in the record yesterday, there is no difference between Scottish

:16:51. > :16:53.nationalism and racism. Would you like this opportunity to distance

:16:54. > :16:58.yourself from that absurd claim? I think that Sadiq Khan was very clear

:16:59. > :17:02.yesterday that he was not accusing the SNP of racism. What he was

:17:03. > :17:07.saying clearly is that nationalism by its very nature divides people

:17:08. > :17:11.and communities. That is what I said in my speech yesterday. I am fed up

:17:12. > :17:15.living in a divided and fractured country and society. Our politics is

:17:16. > :17:21.forcing is constantly to pick sides, whether you're a no, leave a remain,

:17:22. > :17:25.it brings out the worst in our politicians and politics. All the

:17:26. > :17:30.consensus we find in the grey areas is lost. That is why am standing

:17:31. > :17:44.under a banner that together we are stronger. We have to come up with

:17:45. > :17:48.ideas and focus on the future. That is why I agree with Sadiq Khan. He

:17:49. > :17:51.said quite clearly in the Daily Record yesterday, and that the last

:17:52. > :17:53.minute he adapted his speech to your conference yesterday, to try and

:17:54. > :17:55.reduce the impact, that there was no difference between Scottish

:17:56. > :17:59.nationalism and racism. Your colleague, and Sarwar, said that

:18:00. > :18:03.even after he had tried to introduce the caveats, all forms of

:18:04. > :18:11.nationalism rely on creating eyes and them. Let's call it for what it

:18:12. > :18:15.is. So you are implying that the Scottish Nationalists are racist.

:18:16. > :18:19.Would you care to distance yourself from that absurd claim? I utterly

:18:20. > :18:25.refute that that is what Sadiq Khan said. I would never suggest that the

:18:26. > :18:31.SNP are an inherently racist party. That does is a disservice. He did

:18:32. > :18:35.not see it. What he did say, however, is that nationalism is

:18:36. > :18:39.divisive. You know that better than anyone. I see your Twitter account.

:18:40. > :18:45.Regularly your attack for the job you do as a journalist. Politics in

:18:46. > :18:50.Scotland is divided on. I do not want to revisit that independence

:18:51. > :18:53.question again for that reason. As leader of the Labour Party, I want

:18:54. > :18:59.to bring our country back together, appeal to people who voted yes and

:19:00. > :19:03.no. That banner, together we are stronger, that is where the answers

:19:04. > :19:07.lie in defaulters can be found. If in response to the Mayor of London,

:19:08. > :19:12.your colleague says, let's call it out for what it is, what is he

:19:13. > :19:20.referring to if he is not implying that national symbol is racist? --

:19:21. > :19:24.and that nationalism is racist? He is saying that it leads to divisive

:19:25. > :19:28.politics. The Labour Party has always advocated that together we

:19:29. > :19:32.are stronger. Saying something is divisive is very different from

:19:33. > :19:36.saying something is racist. That is what the Mayor of London said. That

:19:37. > :19:41.is what your colleague was referring to. He did not. You would really

:19:42. > :19:47.struggle to quote that from the Mayor of London. He talked about

:19:48. > :19:53.being divided by race. What does that mean? I think he was very clear

:19:54. > :19:57.that he was talking about divided politics. There is an appetite the

:19:58. > :20:01.length and breadth of the country to end that divisive politics. That is

:20:02. > :20:05.what I stand for, focusing on the future, bringing people back

:20:06. > :20:09.together, concentrating on what the economy might look like in 20 years'

:20:10. > :20:11.time in coming up with ideas to tackle it today. Thank you for

:20:12. > :20:12.joining us. Thursday's win for Labour

:20:13. > :20:14.in Stoke-on-Trent Central gave some relief to Jeremy Corbyn,

:20:15. > :20:17.but for Ukip leader and defeated Stoke candidate Paul Nuttall

:20:18. > :20:19.there were no consolation prizes. I'm joined now by Mr Nuttall's

:20:20. > :20:29.principal political Welcome to the programme. Good

:20:30. > :20:33.morning. How long will Paul Nuttall survivors Ukip leader, days, weeks,

:20:34. > :20:39.months? You are in danger of not seeing the wood for the trees. Ukip

:20:40. > :20:44.was formed in 1993 with the express purpose, much mocked, of getting

:20:45. > :20:47.Britain out of the European Union. Under the brilliant leadership of

:20:48. > :20:51.Nigel Farage, we were crucial in forcing a vacuous Prime Minister to

:20:52. > :20:57.make a referendum promise he did not want to give. With our friends in

:20:58. > :21:04.Fort leave and other organisations. Mac we know that. Get to the answer.

:21:05. > :21:08.We helped to win that referendum. The iteration of Ukip at the moment

:21:09. > :21:13.that we're in, the primary purpose, we are the guard dog of Brexit.

:21:14. > :21:18.Viewed through that prism, the Stoke by-election was a brilliant success.

:21:19. > :21:23.A brilliant success? We had the Tory candidate that had pumped out

:21:24. > :21:27.publicity for Remain, for Cameron Bradley, preaching the gospel of

:21:28. > :21:32.Brexit. We had a Labour candidate and we know what he really felt

:21:33. > :21:34.about Brexit, preaching the Gospel according to Brexit. You lost. Well

:21:35. > :21:51.the by-election was going on, we had the Labour Party in the House of

:21:52. > :21:53.Commons pass the idea of trickling Article 50 by a landslide. Are

:21:54. > :21:56.passionate thing, the thing that 35,000 Ukip members care about the

:21:57. > :21:58.most, it is an extraordinary achievement. I am very proud. What

:21:59. > :22:00.would you have described as victory as? If we could have got Paul

:22:01. > :22:04.Nuttall into the House of Commons, that would have been a fantastic

:22:05. > :22:10.cherry on the top. Losing was an extraordinary achievement? Many Ukip

:22:11. > :22:16.supporters the Stoke was winnable, but Paul Nuttall's campaign was

:22:17. > :22:23.marred by controversy, Tory voters refuse to vote tactically for Ukip

:22:24. > :22:28.to beat Labour, his campaign, Mr Nuttall is to blame for not winning

:22:29. > :22:31.what was a winnable seat? I do not see that at all. This is

:22:32. > :22:37.counterintuitive, but Jeremy Corbyn did do one thing that made it more

:22:38. > :22:42.difficult for us to win. Fantasy. That was to take Labour into a

:22:43. > :22:47.Brexit position formerly. Just over 50 Labour MPs had voted against

:22:48. > :22:51.triggering Article 50. In political terms, we have intimidated the

:22:52. > :22:53.Labour Party into backing Brexit. How much good is it doing you? It

:22:54. > :23:10.comes to the heart of the problem your party faces.

:23:11. > :23:12.You're struggling to win Tory Eurosceptic voters. For the moment,

:23:13. > :23:15.they seem happy with Theresa May. Stoke shows you're not winning

:23:16. > :23:17.Labour Brexit voters either. If you cannot get the solution Tolisso

:23:18. > :23:19.labour, where does your Broad come from? In terms of the by-election,

:23:20. > :23:22.it came very early for Paul. I'm talking about the future. We have a

:23:23. > :23:27.future agenda, and ideological argument with Jeremy Corbyn's Labour

:23:28. > :23:31.Party, which is wedded to the notion of global citizenship and does not

:23:32. > :23:35.recognise the nation state. We know he spent Christmas sitting around

:23:36. > :23:39.campfires with Mexican Marxist dreaming of global government. We

:23:40. > :23:42.believe in the nation state. We believe that the patriotic working

:23:43. > :23:49.class vote will be receptive to that. Your Broad went down by 9% in

:23:50. > :23:54.Cortland. In Copeland we were squeezed. In Stoke, we were unable

:23:55. > :24:00.to squeeze the Tories, who are on a high. Our agenda is that social

:24:01. > :24:03.solidarity is important but we arrange it in this country by nation

:24:04. > :24:08.and community. We want an immigration system that is not only

:24:09. > :24:12.reducing... We know what you want. I do not think people do. You had a

:24:13. > :24:17.whole by-election to tell people and they did not vote for you and. When

:24:18. > :24:23.Nigel Farage said it was fundamental that you were winner in Stoke, he

:24:24. > :24:30.was wrong? Nigel chooses his own words. I would not rewrite them. It

:24:31. > :24:33.would be a massive advantage to Ukip to have a leader in the House of

:24:34. > :24:37.Commons in time to reply to the budget, Prime Minister's questions

:24:38. > :24:40.and all of that. But we have taken the strategic view that we will

:24:41. > :24:44.fight the Labour Party for the working class vote. It is also true

:24:45. > :24:48.that the Conservatives will make a pitch for the working class vote

:24:49. > :24:53.might as well. All three parties have certain advantages and

:24:54. > :24:57.disadvantages. As part of that page, Nigel Farage said that your leader,

:24:58. > :25:02.Paul Nuttall, should have taken a clear, by which I assume he meant

:25:03. > :25:07.tough, line on immigration. Do you agree? He took a tough line on

:25:08. > :25:11.immigration. He developed that idea at our party conference in the

:25:12. > :25:15.spring. Nigel Farage did not think so? Nigel Farage made his speech

:25:16. > :25:22.before Paul Nuttall made his speech. He said this in the aftermath of the

:25:23. > :25:28.result. Once we have freedom to control and Borders, Paul wants to

:25:29. > :25:32.set up an immigration system that includes an aptitude test, do you

:25:33. > :25:38.have skills that the British economy needs, but also, and attitudes test,

:25:39. > :25:43.do you subscribe to core British values such as gender equality and

:25:44. > :25:46.freedom of expression? We will be making these arguments. It is

:25:47. > :25:51.certainly true that Paul's campaign was thrown off course by,

:25:52. > :25:56.particularly something that we knew the Labour Party had been preparing

:25:57. > :25:59.to run, the smear on the untruths, the implications about Hillsborough.

:26:00. > :26:05.If you knew you should have anticipated it. Alan Banks, he helps

:26:06. > :26:10.to bankroll your party, he said that Mr Nuttall needs to toss out the

:26:11. > :26:13.Tory cabal in Europe, by which he means Douglas Carswell, Neil

:26:14. > :26:19.Hamilton. Should they be stripped of their membership? Of course not. As

:26:20. > :26:23.far as I knew, Alan Banks was a member of the Conservative Party

:26:24. > :26:27.formally. I do not know who this Tory cabal is supposed to be. He

:26:28. > :26:31.says that your party is more like a jumble sale than a political party.

:26:32. > :26:37.He says that the party should make him chairman or they will work. What

:26:38. > :26:40.do you see to that? He has made that statement several times over many

:26:41. > :26:45.months, including if you do not throw out your only MP. Douglas

:26:46. > :26:49.Carswell has managed to win twice under Ukip colours. Should Tibi

:26:50. > :26:56.chairman? I think we have an excellent young chairman at the

:26:57. > :27:01.moment. He is doing a good job. The idea that Leave.EU was as smooth

:27:02. > :27:04.running brilliant machine, that does not sit with the facts as I

:27:05. > :27:09.understand them. Suzanne Evans says it would be no great loss for Ukip

:27:10. > :27:14.if Mr Banks walked out, severed his ties and took his money elsewhere.

:27:15. > :27:17.Is she right. I am always happy people who want to give money and

:27:18. > :27:22.support your party want to stay in the party. The best donors donate

:27:23. > :27:27.and do not seek to dictate. If they are experts in certain fields,

:27:28. > :27:30.people should listen to their views but to have a daughter telling the

:27:31. > :27:35.party leader who should be party chairman, that is a nonstarter. You

:27:36. > :27:40.have described your existing party chairman is excellent. He said it

:27:41. > :27:45.could be 20 years before Ukip wins by-election. Is he being too

:27:46. > :27:49.optimistic? There is a general election coming up in the years'

:27:50. > :27:54.time. We will be aiming to win seats in that. Before that, we will be the

:27:55. > :27:59.guard dog for Brexit, to make sure this extraordinary achievement of a

:28:00. > :28:03.little party... You are guard dog without a kennel, you cannot get

:28:04. > :28:08.seat? We're keeping the big establishment parties to do the will

:28:09. > :28:11.of the people. If we achieve nothing else at all, that will be a

:28:12. > :28:13.magnificent achievement. Thank you very much.

:28:14. > :28:14.Sweden isn't somewhere we talk about often

:28:15. > :28:18.should because this week it was pulled into

:28:19. > :28:19.the global spotlight, thanks

:28:20. > :28:28.Last weekend, Mr Trump was mocked for referring to an incident that

:28:29. > :28:31.had occurred last night in Sweden as a result of the country's open

:28:32. > :28:35.Critics were quick to point out that no such incident had occurred

:28:36. > :28:38.and Mr Trump later clarified on Twitter and he was talking

:28:39. > :28:41.about a report he had watched on Fox News.

:28:42. > :28:43.But as if to prove he was onto something,

:28:44. > :28:46.next day a riot broke out in a Stockholm suburb

:28:47. > :28:48.with a large migrant population, following unrest in such areas

:28:49. > :28:58.So what has been Sweden's experience of migration?

:28:59. > :29:01.In 2015, a record 162,000 people claimed asylum there, the second

:29:02. > :29:07.That number dropped to 29,000 in 2016 after the country introduced

:29:08. > :29:09.border restrictions and stopped offering permanent

:29:10. > :29:17.Tensions have risen, along with claims of links to crime,

:29:18. > :29:20.although official statistics do not provide evidence of a refugee driven

:29:21. > :29:28.Nigel Farage defended Mr Trump, claiming this week that migrants

:29:29. > :29:31.have led to a dramatic rise in sexual offences.

:29:32. > :29:33.Although the country does have the highest reported

:29:34. > :29:36.rate of rape in Europe, Swedish authorities say recent rises

:29:37. > :29:41.were due to changes to how rape and sex crimes are recorded.

:29:42. > :29:43.Aside from the issue of crime, Sweden has struggled

:29:44. > :29:49.Levels of inequality between natives and migrants when it comes

:29:50. > :29:52.Unemployment rates are three times higher for foreign-born workers

:29:53. > :30:05.We're joined now by Laila Naraghi, she's a Swedish MP from the

:30:06. > :30:07.governing Social Democratic Party, and by the author and

:30:08. > :30:23.The Swedish political establishment was outraged by Mr Trump's remarks,

:30:24. > :30:27.pointing to a riot that hadn't taken place, then a few nights later

:30:28. > :30:32.serious riots did break out in a largely migrant suburb of Stockholm

:30:33. > :30:36.so he wasn't far out, was he? I think he was far out because he is

:30:37. > :30:41.misleading the public with how he uses these statistics. I think it is

:30:42. > :30:45.important to remember that the violence has decreased in Sweden for

:30:46. > :30:49.the past 20 years and research shows there is no evidence that indicate

:30:50. > :30:57.that immigration leads to crime and so I think it is far out. The social

:30:58. > :31:01.unrest in these different areas is not because of their ethical

:31:02. > :31:08.backgrounds of these people living there but more about social economic

:31:09. > :31:12.reasons. OK, no evidence migrants are responsible for any kind of

:31:13. > :31:19.crime? This story reminds me after what happened to the Charlie Hebdo

:31:20. > :31:24.attacks in Paris when also a Fox News commentator said something that

:31:25. > :31:28.was outlandish about Paris and the Mayor of Paris threatened to sue Fox

:31:29. > :31:33.News, saying you are making our city look bad. It's a bit like that

:31:34. > :31:38.because the truth on this lies between Donald Trump on the Swedish

:31:39. > :31:43.authorities on this. Sweden and Swedish government is very reluctant

:31:44. > :31:46.to admit any downsides of its own migration policy and particularly

:31:47. > :31:52.the migration it hard in 2015 but there are very obvious downsides

:31:53. > :31:58.because Sweden is not a country that needs a non-skilled labour force

:31:59. > :32:03.which doesn't speak Swedish. What was raised as the matter of

:32:04. > :32:07.evidence, what is the evidence? First of all if I can say so the

:32:08. > :32:11.rape statistics in Sweden that have been cited are familiar with the

:32:12. > :32:15.rape statistics across other countries that have seen similar

:32:16. > :32:19.forms of migration. Danish authorities and the Norwegian

:32:20. > :32:25.authorities have recorded a similar thing. It is not done by ethnicity

:32:26. > :32:31.so we don't know. And this is part of the problem. It is again a lot of

:32:32. > :32:36.lies and rumours going about. When it is about for example rape, it is

:32:37. > :32:41.difficult to compare the statistics because in Sweden for example many

:32:42. > :32:46.crimes that in other countries are labelled as bodily harm or assault

:32:47. > :32:51.are in Sweden labelled as rape. Also how it is counted because if a woman

:32:52. > :32:59.goes to the police and reports that her husband or boyfriend has raped

:33:00. > :33:04.her, and done it every night for one year, in Sweden that is counted as

:33:05. > :33:09.365 offences. Something is going wrong, I look at the recent news

:33:10. > :33:12.from Sweden. Six Afghan child refugees committed suicide in the

:33:13. > :33:19.last six months, unemployment among recent migrants now five times

:33:20. > :33:25.higher than among non-migrants. We have seen gang violence in Malmo

:33:26. > :33:28.where a British child was killed by a grenade, rioting in Stockholm.

:33:29. > :33:32.Police in Sweden say there are 53 areas of the country where it is now

:33:33. > :33:39.dangerous to patrol. Something has gone wrong. Let me get back to what

:33:40. > :33:44.I think is the core of this debate if I may and that is the right for

:33:45. > :33:48.people fleeing war and political persecution to seek asylum, that is

:33:49. > :33:53.a human right. In Sweden we don't think we can do everything, but we

:33:54. > :33:57.want to live up to our obligation, every country has an obligation to

:33:58. > :34:03.receive asylum seekers. But you have changed your policy on that because

:34:04. > :34:06.having taken 163,001 year alone, you have then closed your borders, I

:34:07. > :34:12.think very wisely, closed the border which means 10,000 people per day at

:34:13. > :34:17.one point were walking from Denmark in to Malmo, you rightly changed

:34:18. > :34:20.that so he realised whatever ones aspirations in terms of asylum, it

:34:21. > :34:27.sometimes meets reality and Sweden is meeting the reality of this.

:34:28. > :34:30.Let's respond to that. We are not naive, we know we cannot do

:34:31. > :34:34.everything but we want to try to do our share as we think other

:34:35. > :34:38.countries also need to do their share. But let me say that, if you

:34:39. > :34:42.look at what the World Economic Forum is saying about our country

:34:43. > :34:46.they show we are in the top of many rankings, the best country to live

:34:47. > :34:55.in, to age in, to have children in, to start into -- to start

:34:56. > :35:01.enterprise. Why have you not been so good at integrating migrants? The

:35:02. > :35:06.unemployment rate is five times higher among migrants than

:35:07. > :35:10.non-migrants and that's the highest ratio of any country in the EU and

:35:11. > :35:16.the OECD, why have you not been able to integrate the people you have

:35:17. > :35:20.brought in for humanitarian reasons? I'm sure there are things we can do

:35:21. > :35:24.much better of course but if you look for example at the immigration

:35:25. > :35:29.that came in the 90s from the Balkans, they are well integrated

:35:30. > :35:31.and contributing to our society. They are starting enterprises and

:35:32. > :35:39.working in different fields of society, and they help our country.

:35:40. > :35:46.Why have they not got jobs, the migrants that have come in? It takes

:35:47. > :35:51.time. In the 90s we managed it and I'm sure we can do it again. Can I

:35:52. > :35:54.put this into some context, it is clear Sweden has got problems as a

:35:55. > :35:59.result of the number of migrants that come in, whether it is as bad

:36:00. > :36:03.as Mr Trump and others make out is another matter, but perhaps I can

:36:04. > :36:08.put it into context. Malmo, which has been at the centre of many of

:36:09. > :36:15.these migrant problems, its homicide rate is three per hundred thousand.

:36:16. > :36:20.Chicago, 28 per 100,000. It may have problems but they are not huge. No,

:36:21. > :36:25.they are pretty huge and I think they will grow. The Balkan refugees

:36:26. > :36:29.into Sweden in the 90s did bring a lot of problems and Sweden did for

:36:30. > :36:33.the first time see serious ethnic gang rivalries. There was an upsurge

:36:34. > :36:39.in gang-related violence that has gone on since. The situation in

:36:40. > :36:43.Malmo in particular is exaggerated by some people, there's no doubt

:36:44. > :36:46.about that, I have been there many times and it is undoubtedly

:36:47. > :36:52.exaggerated by some, it is also vastly unpersuaded by the Swedish

:36:53. > :37:02.authorities. -- understated. In 2010, one in ten Jews in Malmo

:37:03. > :37:12.registered some form of attack on them. It got so bad that in 2010

:37:13. > :37:16.people offered to escort Jews... You have had a good say and I have got

:37:17. > :37:23.to be fair here, what do you say to that, Laila Naraghi? There are

:37:24. > :37:27.people trying to frame our country in a certain way to push their own

:37:28. > :37:33.agenda. I regret that President Trump is trying to slander our

:37:34. > :37:37.country. But what about the specific point on Malmo? If you speak to

:37:38. > :37:41.people in Malmo and also to different congregations, they say

:37:42. > :37:45.they are working together with the authorities to improve this. I say

:37:46. > :37:50.again, there are a lot of people trying to spread rumours and lies.

:37:51. > :37:55.Your situation is very like the situation we had in Britain when we

:37:56. > :38:00.have these situations in Rotherham and elsewhere. 1400 girls were raped

:38:01. > :38:04.in Rotherham before police even admitted it was going on. That

:38:05. > :38:08.happened in Britain in the last decade, a similar phenomenon. An

:38:09. > :38:12.upsurge in particularly sexual and other forms of violence and then

:38:13. > :38:16.total denial by an entire political class is now something that is

:38:17. > :38:20.happening in Sweden. I see it in Swedish authorities and the denial

:38:21. > :38:25.that comes up and the desire to laugh and dismiss Trump but he's not

:38:26. > :38:32.answer nothing and that's a painful thing for any society to want to

:38:33. > :38:39.admit to. There are number of Swedes who think the establishment is

:38:40. > :38:43.covering up the true statistics, that you don't break crime down by

:38:44. > :38:49.ethnic crimes, people are suspicious of the centre-left and centre-right

:38:50. > :38:52.parties now in Sweden. There is no denial and no cover-up. This is what

:38:53. > :38:56.I'm speaking about when I say people are trying to frame it in a certain

:38:57. > :39:00.way. The social unrest is not because of the ethnical background

:39:01. > :39:04.of the people living there but rather because of different

:39:05. > :39:10.socioeconomics conditions. There is no research that shows

:39:11. > :39:13.immigration... But you don't do the research into it. Swedish

:39:14. > :39:17.authorities deliberately ensure you cannot carry out such research and

:39:18. > :39:21.after the attacks in Cologne in 2015 it was the first time then that the

:39:22. > :39:25.Swedish authorities and press admitted that similar sexual

:39:26. > :39:31.molestation have been going on for years in Sweden. Is it right to

:39:32. > :39:36.think, given the problem is maybe not as bad as many people make out

:39:37. > :39:41.but clearly problems, given these problems, is the age of mass asylum

:39:42. > :39:46.seeking for Sweden over? You have cut the numbers by 80% coming in

:39:47. > :39:51.last year compared with 2015, is it over while you concentrate on

:39:52. > :39:55.getting right the people that you have there already? We want to do

:39:56. > :39:58.our share, we have done a lot and now we are concentrating of course

:39:59. > :40:12.on integration and making sure people get a job, and also

:40:13. > :40:15.on big welfare investments because it's important to remember that for

:40:16. > :40:17.eight years Sweden were governed by a government that prioritised big

:40:18. > :40:21.tax cuts instead of investment in welfare. It may just not work. I am

:40:22. > :40:22.grateful to you both, we have to leave it there.

:40:23. > :40:25.It's coming up to 11:40am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:40:26. > :40:27.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:40:28. > :40:33.the Week Ahead, when we'll be asking if the Government is facing defeat

:40:34. > :40:48.Coming up on the Sunday Politics here in the South West: Council

:40:49. > :40:50.leaders vent their anger as the government finally

:40:51. > :40:58.announces their funding for the next financial year.

:40:59. > :41:01.When they give us a provisional settlement late and then they give

:41:02. > :41:04.us a final settlement after we have all set our budgets,

:41:05. > :41:06.and we have got to set our budgets because of legal reasons,

:41:07. > :41:10.And for the next 20 minutes I'm joined by Candy Atherton, Labour

:41:11. > :41:13.councillor on Cornwall Council, Conservative MP Sarah Wollaston,

:41:14. > :41:24.By-election drama this week saw Labour lose a seat they've held

:41:25. > :41:28.since the 1930s and the Ukip leader fail to win a seat seen by many

:41:29. > :41:33.But neither party leader seems to think the problem could be them.

:41:34. > :41:36.There is a lot more which will happen, a lot more to come from us.

:41:37. > :41:38.We are not going anywhere, I'm not going anywhere,

:41:39. > :41:43.so therefore, you know, we move on and our time will come.

:41:44. > :41:46.Have you at any point this morning looked in the mirror and ask

:41:47. > :41:49.yourself this question, could the problem actually be me?

:41:50. > :42:07.An old friend of yours that, of course, Jeremy Corbyn, Candy.

:42:08. > :42:10.The Copeland by-election, this is the seat you have lost,

:42:11. > :42:13.that is very, very ominous, isn't it, for Labour's

:42:14. > :42:17.that is very, very ominous, isn't it, for Labour's future prospects?

:42:18. > :42:21.I certainly think we will need to look very carefully and reflect

:42:22. > :42:25.on what the voters in Copeland and in Stoke said and I would

:42:26. > :42:27.mention that Stoke was widely predicted by the media

:42:28. > :42:29.that we would not win that but we did, and comfortably,

:42:30. > :42:33.It's not a traditional Labour seat in the sense

:42:34. > :42:49.Why is the nuclear industry seat, and possibly slightly,

:42:50. > :42:52.I've always been slightly surprised it was a long-term Labour seat.

:42:53. > :42:54.But in terms of Jeremy Corbyn's personal antinuclear stance,

:42:55. > :42:56.that's not going to play well in places like Plymouth,

:42:57. > :42:59.seats that Labour has held many times and will need to win back

:43:00. > :43:04.And that is why there is a big debate going on within the party.

:43:05. > :43:07.But I would remind you that the media said they would not win

:43:08. > :43:10.Stoke and actually we have seen off Ukip and I think that is to be

:43:11. > :43:14.Do you think there should be a fresh question mark over

:43:15. > :43:19.Jeremy has stood twice, he got a bigger mandate the second time.

:43:20. > :43:23.I think what everyone needs to do, from the leader to the newest

:43:24. > :43:26.new member is to reflect on how we can do better, how we can

:43:27. > :43:28.respond to the electorate and prepare for some

:43:29. > :43:30.Sarah, obviously celebration for the Conservatives.

:43:31. > :43:32.Yes, a huge vote of confidence in Theresa May

:43:33. > :43:36.Some have suggested, though, and looking at the by-elections

:43:37. > :43:38.we have had recently, there could be a sense

:43:39. > :43:40.that the Conservatives could be making advances in the Brexit

:43:41. > :43:44.heartlands of the north but be vulnerable in their traditional

:43:45. > :43:47.heartlands in the south, to Remain voters.

:43:48. > :44:03.This was a seat that the Conservatives weren't

:44:04. > :44:06.expecting to win and I think the circumstances, with Theresa May

:44:07. > :44:08.putting in a very powerful performance and of course dismal

:44:09. > :44:11.leadership from Jeremy Corbyn, I think those have come together

:44:12. > :44:16.Molly, I say obviously we are in very feeble are times

:44:17. > :44:19.Molly, I say obviously we are in very febrile times

:44:20. > :44:21.and a lot of parties are looking for potential opportunities,

:44:22. > :44:24.the Greens, we talked that Ukip going up and down but the Greens

:44:25. > :44:26.don't seem to be grasping opportunities.

:44:27. > :44:30.Well, we saw our results decline because we got caught in the usual

:44:31. > :44:33.squeeze when a lot of focuses on the other parties but don't see

:44:34. > :44:35.there is much enthusiasm for the Conservatives,

:44:36. > :44:38.in spite of what Sarah says, and I don't think people have much

:44:39. > :44:40.confidence in Labour to do any better.

:44:41. > :44:44.Yes, because what people are doing is trying to make a decision

:44:45. > :44:47.about who is the person who is likely to win

:44:48. > :44:50.and who do they like least and I would like to see people

:44:51. > :44:52.have a chance for voting for what they believe

:44:53. > :44:55.in and we need a different kind of electoral system.

:44:56. > :44:58.We need to be responding to the fact that we are in a multiparty

:44:59. > :45:01.system that and we need to have an electoral system that

:45:02. > :45:04.reflects that and stop this old game of government and opposition move

:45:05. > :45:06.towards a multiparty system like most other countries have.

:45:07. > :45:09.The two principal parties were the ones that one in the election.

:45:10. > :45:12.The two principal parties were the ones that won in the election.

:45:13. > :45:15.Because we live in a system that is a majority system so it

:45:16. > :45:18.tends to help the two main parties but it is leading to

:45:19. > :45:22.OK, we're going to question the exact system we had a referendum on.

:45:23. > :45:25.We are moving into a different debate, an interesting

:45:26. > :45:28.Higher council tax, service cuts and a budget-setting process

:45:29. > :45:32.described by one of the South West's senior Tories as a shambles.

:45:33. > :45:34.Apart from that, local government finances have had a great week.

:45:35. > :45:37.At least councils will have more money to cope with the mounting

:45:38. > :45:41.The extra care cash is for the adults and the elderly but,

:45:42. > :45:43.as Anna Varle reports, that's left some concerned

:45:44. > :45:45.about the impact of the latest spending round on children.

:45:46. > :45:54.Learning to read and write, something that comes easy to many

:45:55. > :45:57.but for one in ten of us it is a struggle.

:45:58. > :46:06.Sophie is one of the lucky ones, she is getting one-to-one help

:46:07. > :46:12.But help for children with special educational needs

:46:13. > :46:21.Cornwall Council is looking to make savings, which means that schools

:46:22. > :46:24.like this one would have to pay more for services to give children

:46:25. > :46:30.The local authority is cutting children's services by 30% over five

:46:31. > :46:35.years, which means schools will have to pay for some services which were

:46:36. > :46:40.I'm very worried that in two years' time our schools won't be solvent,

:46:41. > :46:44.in order to provide a basic education for every single child,

:46:45. > :46:50.so I am doubly worried for the children who have special

:46:51. > :46:53.educational needs and who need additional support but our budgets

:46:54. > :47:00.The schools are there, they are being asked to do

:47:01. > :47:02.more and more and more, and there is only so much

:47:03. > :47:11.So if things don't change and cuts keep being made, you know, I say

:47:12. > :47:15.Children are going to leave school having not achieved their full

:47:16. > :47:19.potential and that, to me, it's terrible.

:47:20. > :47:21.The council says educational psychologists will now have

:47:22. > :47:26.to prioritise statuary work with schools but Barbara Hewitt Silk

:47:27. > :47:28.from Cornwall Dyslexia says it is the most vulnerable

:47:29. > :47:32.who will end up paying the cost of these cuts.

:47:33. > :47:36.We have all sorts of people who contact our helpline

:47:37. > :47:39.and who come for advice, who just have fallen

:47:40. > :47:45.That can be stopped, or should I say it can be

:47:46. > :47:49.ameliorated earlier on, if we put enough resources

:47:50. > :47:55.Any cutback in educational psychology is short-sighted.

:47:56. > :47:58.As well as the millions of pounds of savings local authorities

:47:59. > :48:02.are having to make to balance the books, Council Tax is set

:48:03. > :48:07.to rise across the region to pay for social care but there are calls

:48:08. > :48:10.for some of this money to be spent on children's services.

:48:11. > :48:14.If we are to call it a social care precept at least allow for some

:48:15. > :48:18.of it to be spent in children's services because children need

:48:19. > :48:22.social care, children need hospitals and everything else,

:48:23. > :48:24.so I don't understand why the government doesn't allow us

:48:25. > :48:27.to use that 2% where it goes to the most vulnerable and we can do

:48:28. > :48:33.With no extra money from the government in the funding

:48:34. > :48:42.settlement council leaders are seriously concerned.

:48:43. > :48:45.When they give us a provisional settlement late and then they give

:48:46. > :48:48.us a final settlement after we have all set our budgets and we have

:48:49. > :48:51.got to set our budgets because of legal reasons,

:48:52. > :48:54.Councils say they have had little control over this process

:48:55. > :48:57.and they doubt whether the extra money they are raising

:48:58. > :49:02.for care of the elderly will keep up with demand.

:49:03. > :49:05.It's a long time until Sophie needs to worry about that

:49:06. > :49:08.but could children like her be facing a lifetime of struggling

:49:09. > :49:19.Sarah, a taste of the big political row behind

:49:20. > :49:26.all of this from John Hart, in his typically forthright fashion.

:49:27. > :49:30.What we have seen over the last few weeks is what we seem to see every

:49:31. > :49:32.year, lots of rural Conservative MPs jumping up and down,

:49:33. > :49:34.saying it is a disgrace that services in the countryside

:49:35. > :49:36.are underfunded compared to the urban areas.

:49:37. > :49:41.Get to the debate and someone stands up saying something vaguely

:49:42. > :49:48.placatory and everyone voted through anyway.

:49:49. > :49:51.Well, I didn't add my name to that vote because I feel very strongly

:49:52. > :49:56.about the issue of social care and I have stayed on that

:49:57. > :49:59.about the issue of social care and I have abstained on that

:50:00. > :50:02.because I feel a stronger message needs to doubt that the disparity

:50:03. > :50:04.between rural and urban areas absolutely needs to be addressed.

:50:05. > :50:08.But also that I think that 3% in two years running is not significantly

:50:09. > :50:10.different enough from 2% three years running so I think that

:50:11. > :50:13.what we absolutely need now in the budget is to have a very

:50:14. > :50:16.significant uplift for social care because we know that that

:50:17. > :50:19.The Communities Secretary also talked about a review.

:50:20. > :50:21.Clearly we know that local government finance will be

:50:22. > :50:25.Suggesting as part of that process, rural needs will be factored

:50:26. > :50:27.in to that but might not deliver any significant change.

:50:28. > :50:32.It is not just about rural, it is about age structure

:50:33. > :50:35.because we know that the key driver for demand is age

:50:36. > :50:44.We know it is a good thing and certainly more

:50:45. > :50:47.of us are living longer, but with that we need to look

:50:48. > :50:50.at the demand that that places on services that you look

:50:51. > :50:52.at these structure, the age structure of Devon,

:50:53. > :50:56.of the country will be in 2030 and so what we must do

:50:57. > :50:59.is actually tailor the funding to the actual level of need,

:51:00. > :51:01.and, of course, the rural issue is that the higher cost

:51:02. > :51:03.of delivering services in rural areas.

:51:04. > :51:05.Candy, the annual rituals wouldn't have been completed unless we let

:51:06. > :51:08.some Conservative MPs stand up in the Commons and say this

:51:09. > :51:11.is all Labour's fault because they shifted a lot of money

:51:12. > :51:13.unfairly from the countryside towards the cities.

:51:14. > :51:15.But where are Devon and Cornwall now?

:51:16. > :51:19.And what are the Devon and Cornwall Tories,

:51:20. > :51:21.who makes a huge phalanx within the House of Commons,

:51:22. > :51:25.They are standing up, and fairness to you, you abstained,

:51:26. > :51:28.but most of them are standing up and saying it is also awful and then

:51:29. > :51:34.they are going through as lobby fodder and then voting it through,

:51:35. > :51:36.whether it is education or health, on all the various issues,

:51:37. > :51:41.policing, you name it, that is what they are doing.

:51:42. > :51:43.They are a huge force in the House of Commons.

:51:44. > :51:47.If you worked as Devon and Cornwall and Somerset, Tories,

:51:48. > :51:49.standing up and saying to the Prime Minister

:51:50. > :51:51.and to the Chancellor, we are still at the lowest

:51:52. > :51:54.of the low, get in there and sort it out.

:51:55. > :52:00.I really resent that as a group, when I was a member of Parliament,

:52:01. > :52:05.there were only four Labour MPs to stand up for Devon and Cornwall

:52:06. > :52:08.and we did a far better job than what is happening here.

:52:09. > :52:15.There was this huge shift to Labour seats of the funding structure

:52:16. > :52:18.and that has been baked in to a system and what we now need

:52:19. > :52:21.is a root and branch review that actually tailors this thing

:52:22. > :52:24.to actual need and of course we need to also look

:52:25. > :52:33.and factor in disadvantage, that is crucially important,

:52:34. > :52:36.but the point is that actually delivering need and social care,

:52:37. > :52:38.the key driver now is age and multi-morbidity

:52:39. > :52:40.and that is where the review needs to happen.

:52:41. > :52:42.Clearly we have the Conservatives looking at a complete overhaul

:52:43. > :52:45.of government finance, self finance in this kind

:52:46. > :52:50.of thing, what would the Greens prescription be?

:52:51. > :52:53.Well, I think we need to look at the bigger picture

:52:54. > :52:55.here because we are looking at a government that has decided

:52:56. > :52:59.to reduce the funding to local government by 30% and we know

:53:00. > :53:04.that the most expectant services that people really rely

:53:05. > :53:07.on are provided by local government and we also know that

:53:08. > :53:10.the Conservatives decided to reduce tax rates that we have less revenue

:53:11. > :53:17.coming in and we would be perfectly prepared to increase taxes so that

:53:18. > :53:19.could fund social care provision properly and I

:53:20. > :53:22.that the Conservatives have decided to make the most vulnerable,

:53:23. > :53:25.as you saw in the film there, pay for the problems

:53:26. > :53:27.in the financial sector, which we are still suffering from.

:53:28. > :53:29.The Conservatives are looking at councils retaining

:53:30. > :53:30.all the business rates, largely, I think,

:53:31. > :53:36.Is that some kind of model that the Greens might look at?

:53:37. > :53:38.I am not averse to the idea of councils becoming

:53:39. > :53:40.more entrepreneurial, I think that is quite a good idea,

:53:41. > :53:44.but I think in order to make this work you have to let local councils

:53:45. > :53:46.have more control over taxation and to raise more taxes locally

:53:47. > :53:49.because at the moment they are constantly under the cosh

:53:50. > :53:52.from central government and you have these rows between local Tories

:53:53. > :53:53.and National Tories which is actually quite dishonest.

:53:54. > :53:56.The Treasury is always very resistant to any more

:53:57. > :54:00.There is not much point in having devolution if you don't have revenue

:54:01. > :54:03.And there we are touching on another big debate!

:54:04. > :54:05.The Prime Minister says mental health services have been

:54:06. > :54:11.But her promise to stop young people being sent out of their local area

:54:12. > :54:13.for treatment won't come into affect for another four years,

:54:14. > :54:15.leaving some families in the South West in limbo.

:54:16. > :54:18.One teenager from St Ives faces being treated outside England

:54:19. > :54:21.after medical staff called 19 mental health units across the country but

:54:22. > :54:29.It's a picture of youthful exuberance, but it doesn't

:54:30. > :54:36.The 17-year-old is currently staying at an NHS unit in Somerset.

:54:37. > :54:40.To visit her daughter, Mum, Marie, must make a 300 mile round trip

:54:41. > :54:45.But that journey that could become greater still.

:54:46. > :54:48.I've been told by CAHMS that they have tried

:54:49. > :54:52.to contact everyone in England and there is nowhere

:54:53. > :54:55.for her in England, and that they are looking

:54:56. > :54:58.to take her out of the country basically to either

:54:59. > :55:04.But even then they haven't said that there is a unit there or any

:55:05. > :55:07.help that that is going to be any different to what is

:55:08. > :55:15.In a speech last month the Prime Minister Theresa May

:55:16. > :55:18.referred to the burning injustice of inadequate mental health care.

:55:19. > :55:21.There is no escaping the fact that people with mental health problems

:55:22. > :55:24.are still not treated the same as if they have a physical ailment.

:55:25. > :55:27.By 2021 no child will be sent away from the local area to be

:55:28. > :55:35.treated for a general mental health condition.

:55:36. > :55:38.The South West has fewer specialist mental health beds for teenagers

:55:39. > :55:40.than any other part of the country and there are none

:55:41. > :55:44.Steve Cockburn has been fighting for a children's unit

:55:45. > :55:48.His son Ben took his own life in an adult unit

:55:49. > :55:52.What I don't understand is of the ?5 billion that the Tory

:55:53. > :55:55.government talk about, can we have our five million

:55:56. > :55:57.for Cornwall, please, so we can have a unit.

:55:58. > :56:05.She has had to give up her job and has two other younger

:56:06. > :56:08.They have said, you know, they can notice a difference

:56:09. > :56:12.in Sasha when I go to see her, and can I come to see her more?

:56:13. > :56:15.It isn't really possible, and now they are saying that it

:56:16. > :56:20.It is so much harder for me to go there.

:56:21. > :56:24.NHS England said it was reviewing its children and adolescent mental

:56:25. > :56:26.health services to secure a more balanced distribution

:56:27. > :56:30.A spokesman said it planned to eliminate inappropriate

:56:31. > :56:44.Molly, I think everybody would accept that if people have

:56:45. > :56:47.specialist conditions or exotic diseases than you might need to take

:56:48. > :56:50.them along way from their homes to treat them but it seems

:56:51. > :56:56.extraordinary that in this kind of incidents it is the only option. Not

:56:57. > :56:59.only extraordinary, but really quite cruel, because these are people who

:57:00. > :57:03.cannot cope with the stresses of travelling that distance. It is fine

:57:04. > :57:06.for the Prime Minister to say she is very concerned as if she has

:57:07. > :57:15.suddenly discovered this issue but the Conservatives have been in power

:57:16. > :57:18.for seven years now so if we have a mental health crisis must be

:57:19. > :57:20.to look for deeper causes of what is to look for deeper causes of what is

:57:21. > :57:23.going on here because we saw a vulnerable young person that we know

:57:24. > :57:24.the pressure in schools in testing and competitiveness and so one

:57:25. > :57:27.encourages mental ill-health in young people and we have people

:57:28. > :57:31.signing up for benefits are constantly being persecuted in terms

:57:32. > :57:36.of looking at work and it is this kind of constant stress and pressure

:57:37. > :57:43.that adds to the crisis. I saw 61 million prescriptions today for

:57:44. > :57:48.antidepressants, and that is a vast amount of medication and we are just

:57:49. > :57:52.not tackling the issue as we should. Sarah, I am quite interested in your

:57:53. > :57:53.perspective as the chair of the health select committee because you

:57:54. > :57:59.look at the whole range... We looked look at the whole range... We looked

:58:00. > :58:04.at this specifically. Clearly there are many challenges. There are huge

:58:05. > :58:07.challenges in children and adolescent mental health challenges

:58:08. > :58:12.-- services and this has been around for a long time. What came across

:58:13. > :58:16.from our enquiry was but the best way to help this is to invest in

:58:17. > :58:22.early intervention because we know that half of mental illness starts

:58:23. > :58:27.before the age of 15 and if we invest in early intervention the

:58:28. > :58:30.plan is to try and not have children to a point when they are so unwell

:58:31. > :58:33.that they need an admission of the first place and there are many

:58:34. > :58:36.things that you can do in terms of assertive outreach and that has been

:58:37. > :58:40.happening across Devon so it is an improving picture across Devon.

:58:41. > :58:44.that we have just heard but I cannot that we have just heard but I cannot

:58:45. > :58:49.comment on that but I don't have the circumstances but clearly we would

:58:50. > :58:52.like children to be able to be cared for if they do need inpatient care

:58:53. > :58:57.close to home. There have been things where we have seen genuine

:58:58. > :59:01.progress such as the use of cells to detain children and young people,

:59:02. > :59:04.that is unacceptable for any age of course, but particularly

:59:05. > :59:07.unacceptable in children that is a the Theresa May has taken action on

:59:08. > :59:14.and it is something that is now coming to an end. What about the

:59:15. > :59:18.causes of ill health, the stresses the pressure, much more efficient to

:59:19. > :59:21.deal with that long wait for the ill-health. I absolutely agree and

:59:22. > :59:24.the health select committee is now together with the education select

:59:25. > :59:28.committee we are starting a joint enquiry looking at how, what the bed

:59:29. > :59:32.in the last enquiry was that most young people we spoke to wanted to

:59:33. > :59:37.be seen in the context of the education system and yet teachers

:59:38. > :59:42.feel ill equipped to actually deal with this. We know there is a rising

:59:43. > :59:46.tide of problems and it is a shame that Labour towards the end of their

:59:47. > :59:51.time in power cancelled the survey that was done. Candy has been keen

:59:52. > :59:55.to get in. There are a huge number of pitches are lots that needs to be

:59:56. > :59:58.done. Investment is starting to go now into children's services but

:59:59. > :00:04.what we need to see is that it gets to the front line. Candy. The

:00:05. > :00:11.issuing Liz that many children have been helped by the charity for Steve

:00:12. > :00:16.Coburn to help their parents get around to visit them all around the

:00:17. > :00:20.country and yet there is land that is available for a specialist centre

:00:21. > :00:24.for young people in Cornwall to be residential, not carted off to

:00:25. > :00:28.Edinburgh or all points north and south and west. In two years the

:00:29. > :00:32.cost of the NHS would be recouped by the cost of us sending them out of

:00:33. > :00:37.counting. I really say a challenge to the NHS in corbel, you have to

:00:38. > :00:42.get on with this. It is absolutely cruel that young people are being

:00:43. > :00:47.do it within two years. The do it within two years. The

:00:48. > :00:49.financial envelope is there so we should get on with it. OK, we have

:00:50. > :00:51.to get on with the programme but to get on with the programme but

:00:52. > :00:52.thank you very much. Now our regular round-up

:00:53. > :01:02.of the political week in 60 seconds. Students demonstrated

:01:03. > :01:07.against fascism in Exeter after a swastika was scratched

:01:08. > :01:10.into a door of the University. The Vice Chancellor also

:01:11. > :01:11.condemned the vandalism. The trouble is it doesn't

:01:12. > :01:17.fit with the character Those who want to see

:01:18. > :01:29.Plymouth airport reopen are The City Council's new plan cuts

:01:30. > :01:33.the time available before the site We believe there is no need

:01:34. > :01:37.to develop Plymouth airport There is sufficient land

:01:38. > :01:40.in the Plymouth area to meet Publicans say they are concerned

:01:41. > :01:44.about big rises to business rates. One South Devon pub

:01:45. > :01:46.is claiming their bill The government says

:01:47. > :01:50.increases are capped. And Bodmin Moor is hoping to follow

:01:51. > :02:11.Exmoor to get special Sarah, on the business rates issue,

:02:12. > :02:14.I was a bit confused this week. There was a suggestion I would

:02:15. > :02:19.and then the Prime Minister 's and then the Prime Minister 's

:02:20. > :02:22.spokesman suggested that maybe not. I was in the chamber when Sergei

:02:23. > :02:25.Javi Guerra that statement and it was very clear to those of us

:02:26. > :02:29.sitting there that it sounded that something was going to be coming

:02:30. > :02:34.forward for our high streets because in my constituency the high streets,

:02:35. > :02:38.there are businesses there that will there are businesses there that will

:02:39. > :02:42.see their rates increase increasingly even though for most of

:02:43. > :02:46.the country it is good news picture so I am hoping that we will see

:02:47. > :02:52.something in the budget. Candy, this is a familiar picture. Isn't it? I

:02:53. > :02:55.imagine there will be a review and because the business rates are going

:02:56. > :02:59.to local authorities my best bet is that the local authorities will end

:03:00. > :03:02.up taking it and it is quite wrong that the government is allowing

:03:03. > :03:07.Amazon to get away with it while our local high streets are getting head.

:03:08. > :03:12.Totally with Candy, that is what I do with European Parliament, tried

:03:13. > :03:16.to stop big corporations avoiding tax at the Independence cannot

:03:17. > :03:21.compete. The trouble is they are based on rents are we need a review

:03:22. > :03:29.of the system. Shift the tax towards the companies in the virtual space.

:03:30. > :03:33.The system needs to be reviewed. Were ending on consensus, a

:03:34. > :03:34.different kind of politics! We did agree slightly.

:03:35. > :03:36.That's the Sunday Politics in the South West.

:03:37. > :03:56.Welcome back. Article 50, which triggers the beginning of Britain

:03:57. > :03:59.leaving the European Union and start negotiations, is winding its way

:04:00. > :04:04.through the Lords in this coming week. Tarzan has made an

:04:05. > :04:10.intervention, let's just see the headline from the Mail on Sunday.

:04:11. > :04:15.Lord Heseltine, Michael Heseltine, my fightback starts here, he is

:04:16. > :04:19.going to defy Theresa May. I divide one Prime Minister over the poll

:04:20. > :04:23.tax, I'm ready to defy this one in the Lords over Brexit. There we go,

:04:24. > :04:28.that's going to happen this week. We will see how far he gets. I don't

:04:29. > :04:33.think he will get very far, I don't think Loyalist Tory MPs and

:04:34. > :04:38.Brexiteers are quaking in their boots at the prospect of a rebellion

:04:39. > :04:42.led by Michael Heseltine. I sense that many Tory MPs are already

:04:43. > :04:47.moving on to the next question about Brexit, and the discussion over how

:04:48. > :04:52.much it will cost us to come out. The fact they are already debating

:04:53. > :04:57.that suggests to me they feel things will go fairly smoothly in terms of

:04:58. > :05:02.the legislation. When I spoke to the Labour leader in the Lords last week

:05:03. > :05:05.on the daily politics, she said she was going to push hard for the kind

:05:06. > :05:14.of amendments Lord has all-time is talking about and they would bring

:05:15. > :05:18.that back to the Commons. But if the Commons pinged it back to the Lords

:05:19. > :05:24.with the amendments taken out, she made it clear that was the end of

:05:25. > :05:29.it. Is that right? That's about right. This is probably really a

:05:30. > :05:34.large destruction. There will be to micro issues that come up in the

:05:35. > :05:39.Lords, one is on the future of EU nationals, that could be voted on as

:05:40. > :05:43.soon as this Wednesday, and then the main vote in the Lords on a week on

:05:44. > :05:48.Tuesday, when there is this question of what sort of vote will MPs and

:05:49. > :05:51.peers get at the end of the Brexit process and that is what has

:05:52. > :05:56.all-time is talking about. He wants to make sure there are guarantees in

:05:57. > :06:00.place. The kind of things peers are looking for are pretty moderate and

:06:01. > :06:06.the Government have hinted they could deliver on both of them

:06:07. > :06:10.already. But they are still not prepared... Amber Rudd said they

:06:11. > :06:15.were not prepared... They may say yes we are going to do that but they

:06:16. > :06:20.won't allow whatever that is to be enshrined in the legislation. The

:06:21. > :06:23.question is whether we think this is dancing on the head of a pin. The

:06:24. > :06:27.Government have already promised something in the House of Commons,

:06:28. > :06:31.but will they write it down, I don't think that's the biggest problem in

:06:32. > :06:35.the world. In a sense this is a great magicians trick by Theresa May

:06:36. > :06:41.because it is not the most important thing. The most important thing in

:06:42. > :06:44.Brexit is going on in those committees behind closed doors when

:06:45. > :06:48.they are trying to work out what the next migration system is for Britain

:06:49. > :06:52.and there are some interesting, indeed toxic proposals, but at the

:06:53. > :06:56.moment Downing Street are happy to let us talk about the constitutional

:06:57. > :07:03.propriety of what MPs are doing over the next eight days. It seems to me

:07:04. > :07:06.the irony is that if we had a second chamber that can claim some kind of

:07:07. > :07:11.democratic legitimacy, which the one we have cannot, it would be able to

:07:12. > :07:16.cause the Government more trouble on this, it would be more robust.

:07:17. > :07:24.Absolutely. I saw the interview we did with the Labour Leader of the

:07:25. > :07:28.Lords, they are very conscious, of the fact they are not elected and

:07:29. > :07:32.have limited powers. She was clear to you they would not impede the

:07:33. > :07:36.timetable for triggering Article 50 so we might get a bit of theatre,

:07:37. > :07:43.Michael Heseltine might deliver a brilliant speech. It is interesting

:07:44. > :07:47.that Euroscepticism gun under Margaret Thatcher in the Tory party

:07:48. > :07:51.but two offer senior ministers Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine are the

:07:52. > :07:56.most prominent opponents now but they will change nothing at this

:07:57. > :08:00.point. She will have the space to trigger Article 50 within her

:08:01. > :08:02.timetable. Let's move on. Let me show you a picture tweeted by Nigel

:08:03. > :08:13.Farage. That is Nigel Farage and a small

:08:14. > :08:17.group of people having dinner, and within that small group of people is

:08:18. > :08:21.the president of the United States, and it was taken in the last couple

:08:22. > :08:27.of days. This would suggest that if he can command that amount of the

:08:28. > :08:32.President's time in a small group of people, then he's actually rather

:08:33. > :08:37.close to the president. Make no mistake about it, Nigel Farage is

:08:38. > :08:43.now to and fro Washington more regularly than perhaps he is here.

:08:44. > :08:49.Hopefully that LBC programme is recorded over in the state. He's not

:08:50. > :08:53.only close to the president but to a series of people within the

:08:54. > :08:58.administration. That relationship there is a remarkable one and one to

:08:59. > :09:02.keep an eye on. Will the main government be tempted to tap into

:09:03. > :09:08.that relationship at any time or is it just seething with anger? You can

:09:09. > :09:15.feel a ripple of discontentment over this. We are in the middle of

:09:16. > :09:18.negotiating the state visit and the sort of pomp and circumstance and

:09:19. > :09:23.what kind of greeting Britain should give Donald Trump when he comes over

:09:24. > :09:27.later in the year. There is a great deal of neurotic thought going into

:09:28. > :09:29.what that should look like, but one of the most interesting things about

:09:30. > :09:33.our relationship with Donald Trump is that there is a nervousness among

:09:34. > :09:38.some Cabinet ministers that we are being seen to go too far, too fast

:09:39. > :09:42.with the prospect of a trade deal. Even amongst some Brexiteer cabinet

:09:43. > :09:46.ministers, they worry we won't get a very good trade deal with the US and

:09:47. > :09:51.we are tolerably placing a lot of stalled by it. When we see the kind

:09:52. > :09:59.of deal they want to pitch with us there might be some pulling back and

:10:00. > :10:02.that could be an awkward moment in terms of our relationship, and no

:10:03. > :10:07.doubt Nigel at that term -- at that point will accuse the UK of doing

:10:08. > :10:15.the dirty on Donald Trump. If there was a deal, would they get it

:10:16. > :10:19.through the House of Commons? Nigel Farage is having dinner with the

:10:20. > :10:23.president, not bad as a kind of lifestyle but he's politically

:10:24. > :10:27.rootless, he won't be an MEP much longer so if you look at where is

:10:28. > :10:31.his political base to build on this great time he's having, there is

:10:32. > :10:35.one. Given that there is one I think he's just having a great time and it

:10:36. > :10:45.isn't much more significant than that. No? There's a lot to be said

:10:46. > :10:54.for having a great time. You are having a great time. Let's just

:10:55. > :10:58.look, because of the dominance of the Government we kind of it nor

:10:59. > :11:04.there are problems piling up, only what, ten days with the Budget to

:11:05. > :11:10.go, piling up for Mrs May and her government. The business rates which

:11:11. > :11:14.has alarmed a lot of Tories, this disability cuts which are really a

:11:15. > :11:18.serious problem for the Government, and the desperate need for more

:11:19. > :11:22.money for social care. There are other issues, there are problems

:11:23. > :11:26.there and they involve spending money. Absolutely and some people

:11:27. > :11:30.argue Theresa May has only one Monday and that is to deliver Brexit

:11:31. > :11:37.but it is impossible as a Prime Minister to ignore everything else.

:11:38. > :11:41.And she doesn't want to either. The bubbling issue of social care and

:11:42. > :11:45.the NHS is the biggest single problem for her in the weeks and

:11:46. > :11:48.months ahead, she has got to come up with something. And Mr Hammond will

:11:49. > :11:54.have to loosen his belt a little bit. I think he will in relation to

:11:55. > :11:57.the NHS, he didn't mention it in the Autumn Statement, which was

:11:58. > :12:02.remarkable, and he cannot get away with not mentioning it this time. If

:12:03. > :12:05.he mentions it, it has to be in a positive context in some way or

:12:06. > :12:09.another and it is one example of many. She is both strong because she

:12:10. > :12:14.is so far ahead in the opinion polls, but this in tray is one of

:12:15. > :12:19.the most daunting a Prime Minister has faced in recent times I think.

:12:20. > :12:25.Here is what will happen on Budget day, money will be more money,

:12:26. > :12:32.magically found down the back of the Treasury sofa. The projections are

:12:33. > :12:36.that he has wiggle room of about 12 billion. But look at the bills,

:12:37. > :12:40.rebels involved in business rates suggest the Chancellor will have to

:12:41. > :12:44.throw up ?2 billion at that problem. 3.7 billion is the potential cost of

:12:45. > :12:48.this judgment about disability benefits. The Government will try to

:12:49. > :12:54.find different ways of satisfying it but who knows. It will not popular.

:12:55. > :12:57.I'm not sure they will throw money at the NHS, they want an interim

:12:58. > :13:02.settlement on social care which will alleviate pressure on the NHS but

:13:03. > :13:08.they feel... That's another couple of billion by the way. They feel in

:13:09. > :13:13.the Treasury that the NHS has not delivered on what Simon Stevens

:13:14. > :13:18.promised them. But here is the bigger problem for Philip Hammond,

:13:19. > :13:22.he has two This year and he thinks the second one in the autumn is more

:13:23. > :13:23.important because that is when people will feel the cost living

:13:24. > :13:25.squeeze. The Daily Politics is back at noon

:13:26. > :13:29.on BBC Two tomorrow. We'll be back here at

:13:30. > :13:32.the same time next week. Remember - if it's Sunday,

:13:33. > :13:38.it's the Sunday Politics.