:00:34. > :00:39.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:40. > :00:43.David Davis tells MPs to leave the Brexit bill untouched,
:00:44. > :00:46.ahead of a week which could see Britain begin the process
:00:47. > :00:51.We'll talk to a Tory rebel and Ukip's Nigel Farage.
:00:52. > :00:54.Phillip Hammond's first budget hit the rocks thanks to a tax rise
:00:55. > :01:02.But how should we tax those who work for themselves?
:01:03. > :01:04.And remember Donald Trump's claim that Barack Obama had ordered
:01:05. > :01:12.We'll talk to the former Tory MP who set the whole story rolling.
:01:13. > :01:14.In the South West: Farmers on both sides
:01:15. > :01:17.of the Brexit debate talk about their fears for the future.
:01:18. > :01:30.And the island paradise in a cash crisis.
:01:31. > :01:32.And joining me for all of that, three self-employed journalists
:01:33. > :01:36.who definitely don't deserve a tax break.
:01:37. > :01:37.It's Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer
:01:38. > :01:41.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme with all the carefree
:01:42. > :01:49.abandon of Katie Hopkins before a libel trial.
:01:50. > :01:51.BBC lawyers have suddenly got nervous!
:01:52. > :01:54.So first today, the government is gearing up to trigger Article 50,
:01:55. > :01:57.perhaps in the next 48 hours, and start negotiating Britain's
:01:58. > :02:00.Much has been written about the prospect of the Commons
:02:01. > :02:03.getting a "meaningful vote" on the deal Britain negotiates.
:02:04. > :02:05.Brexit Secretary David Davis was on the Andrew Marr programme
:02:06. > :02:07.earlier this morning and he was asked what happens
:02:08. > :02:18.Well, that is what is called the most favoured nation status deal
:02:19. > :02:22.There we go out, as it were, on WTO rules.
:02:23. > :02:26.That is why of course we do the contingency planning, to make
:02:27. > :02:33.The British people decided on June the 23rd last year
:02:34. > :02:38.My job, and the job of the government, is to make
:02:39. > :02:48.the terms on which that happens as beneficial as possible.
:02:49. > :02:56.There we have it, clearly, either Parliament votes for the deal when
:02:57. > :02:59.it is done or it out on World Trade Organisation rules. That's what the
:03:00. > :03:01.government means by a meaningful vote.
:03:02. > :03:08.I think we get over obsessed about whether there will be a legal right
:03:09. > :03:11.for Parliament to have a vote. If there is no deal or a bad deal, I
:03:12. > :03:15.think it would be politically impossible for the government to
:03:16. > :03:18.reject Parliament's desire for a vote because the atmosphere of
:03:19. > :03:21.politics will be completely different by then. I take David
:03:22. > :03:26.Davies seriously. Within Whitehall he has acquired a reputation as
:03:27. > :03:30.being the most conscientious and details sadly... And well briefed.
:03:31. > :03:33.Absolutely and well travelled in terms of European capitals of the
:03:34. > :03:37.three Brexit ministers. It is quite telling he said what he did and it
:03:38. > :03:41.is quite telling that within cabinet, two weeks ago he was
:03:42. > :03:45.floating the idea of no deal at all. Being if not the central estimate
:03:46. > :03:49.than a completely plausible eventuality. It is interesting. I
:03:50. > :03:54.would suggest the prospect of no deal is moving up the agenda. It is
:03:55. > :04:00.still less likely than more likely to happen. But it's no longer a kind
:04:01. > :04:03.of long tail way out there in the distance. Planning for no deal is
:04:04. > :04:05.the same as having contents insurance or travel insurance, plan
:04:06. > :04:09.for the worse case scenarios are prepared it happens. Even the worst
:04:10. > :04:14.case scenario, it's not that bad. Think of the Jeep 20, apart from the
:04:15. > :04:19.EU, four members of the G20 economies are successful members of
:04:20. > :04:22.the EU. The rest aren't and don't have trade deals but somehow these
:04:23. > :04:27.countries are prospering. They are growing at a higher rate. You are
:04:28. > :04:31.not frightened? Not remotely. We are obsessed with what we get from the
:04:32. > :04:34.EU and the key thing we get from leaving the EU is not the deal but
:04:35. > :04:38.the other deals we can finally make with other trading partners. They
:04:39. > :04:41.have higher growth than virtually every other EU country apart from
:04:42. > :04:45.Germany. It is sensible as a negotiating position for the
:04:46. > :04:49.government to say if there is no deal, we will accept there is no
:04:50. > :04:54.deal. We're not frightened of no deal. It was clear from what David
:04:55. > :04:56.Davies was saying that there will be a vote in parliament at the end of
:04:57. > :05:02.the process but there won't be a third option to send the government
:05:03. > :05:06.back to try to get a better deal. It is either the deal or we leave
:05:07. > :05:10.without a deal. In reality, that third option will be there. We don't
:05:11. > :05:15.know yet whether there will be a majority for the deal if they get
:05:16. > :05:20.one. What we do know now is that there isn't a majority in the
:05:21. > :05:25.Commons for no deal. Labour MPs are absolutely clear that no deal is
:05:26. > :05:29.worth then a bad deal. I've heard enough Tory MPs say the same thing.
:05:30. > :05:38.But they wouldn't get no deal through. When it comes to this vote,
:05:39. > :05:41.if whatever deal is rejected, there will then be, one way or another,
:05:42. > :05:45.the third option raised of go back again. But who gets to decide what
:05:46. > :05:49.is a bad deal? The British people will have a different idea than the
:05:50. > :05:56.two thirds of the Remain supporting MPs in the Commons. In terms of the
:05:57. > :06:00.vote, the Commons. Surely, if the Commons, which is what matters here,
:06:01. > :06:06.if the Commons were to vote against the deal as negotiated by the
:06:07. > :06:10.government, surely that would trigger a general election? If the
:06:11. > :06:13.government had recommended the deal, surely the government would then, if
:06:14. > :06:19.it still felt strongly about the deal, if the other 27 had said,
:06:20. > :06:23.we're not negotiating, extending it, it would in effect become a second
:06:24. > :06:26.referendum on the deal. In effect it would be a no-confidence vote in the
:06:27. > :06:30.government. You've got to assume that unless something massively
:06:31. > :06:33.changes in the opposition before then, the government would feel
:06:34. > :06:38.fairly confident about a general election on those terms. Unless the
:06:39. > :06:42.deal is hideously bad and obviously basso every vote in the country...
:06:43. > :06:45.The prior minister said if it is that bad she would have rather no
:06:46. > :06:51.deal. So that eventuality arrives. -- the Prime Minister has said. Not
:06:52. > :06:56.a second referendum general election in two years' time. Don't put any
:06:57. > :06:59.holidays for! LAUGHTER -- don't look any.
:07:00. > :07:01.So the Brexit bill looks likely to clear Parliament this week.
:07:02. > :07:05.That depends on the number of Conservative MPs who are prepared
:07:06. > :07:07.to vote against their government on two key issues.
:07:08. > :07:11.Theresa May could be in negotiations with our European
:07:12. > :07:13.partners within days, but there may be some
:07:14. > :07:15.wheeler-dealings she has to do with her own MPs, too.
:07:16. > :07:20.Cast your mind back to the beginning of month.
:07:21. > :07:21.The bill to trigger Article 50 passed comfortably
:07:22. > :07:30.But three Conservatives voted for Labour's amendments to ensure
:07:31. > :07:34.the rights of EU citizens already in the UK.
:07:35. > :07:37.Seven Tory MPs voted to force the government to give Parliament
:07:38. > :07:42.a say on the deal struck with the EU before it's finalised.
:07:43. > :07:46.But remember those numbers, they're important.
:07:47. > :07:50.On the issue of a meaningful vote on a deal, I'm told there might have
:07:51. > :07:52.been more rebels had it not been for this assurance from
:07:53. > :07:58.I can confirm that the government will bring forward a motion
:07:59. > :08:00.on the final agreement to be approved by both Houses
:08:01. > :08:05.And we expect, and intend, that this will happen before
:08:06. > :08:11.the European Parliament debates and votes on the final agreement.
:08:12. > :08:17.When the government was criticised for reeling back
:08:18. > :08:21.from when and what it would offer a vote on.
:08:22. > :08:23.The bill then moved into the Lords, where peers passed it
:08:24. > :08:31.And the second, that Parliament be given a meaningful vote on the terms
:08:32. > :08:34.of the deal or indeed a vote in the event of there
:08:35. > :08:38.The so-called Brexit bill will return to Commons
:08:39. > :08:42.Ministers insist that both amendments would weaken
:08:43. > :08:45.the government's negotiating hand and are seeking to overturn them.
:08:46. > :08:51.But, as ever, politics is a numbers game.
:08:52. > :08:52.Theresa May has a working majority of 17.
:08:53. > :08:57.On Brexit, though, it's probably higher.
:08:58. > :08:59.At least six Labour MPs generally vote with
:09:00. > :09:03.Plus, eight DUP MPs, two from the Ulster Unionist party
:09:04. > :09:09.If all Conservatives vote with the government as well,
:09:10. > :09:15.Therefore, 26 Conservative rebels are needed for the government to be
:09:16. > :09:22.So, are there rough waters ahead for Theresa May?
:09:23. > :09:25.What numbers are we looking at, in terms of a potential rebellion?
:09:26. > :09:28.I think we're looking at a large number of people who are interested
:09:29. > :09:30.This building is a really important building.
:09:31. > :09:32.It's symbolic of a huge amount of history.
:09:33. > :09:36.And for it not to be involved in this momentous time would,
:09:37. > :09:43.But he says a clear verbal statement from the government on a meaningful
:09:44. > :09:49.vote on any deal would be enough to get most Tory MPs onside.
:09:50. > :09:51.It was already said about David Jones.
:09:52. > :09:53.It's slightly unravelled a little bit during
:09:54. > :09:58.I think this is an opportunity to really get that clarity
:09:59. > :10:01.through so that we can all vote for Article 50 and get
:10:02. > :10:05.We've have spoken to several Tory MPs who say they are minded to vote
:10:06. > :10:09.One said the situation was sad and depressing.
:10:10. > :10:12.The other said that the whips must be worried because they don't
:10:13. > :10:19.A minister told me Downing Street was looking again at the possibility
:10:20. > :10:23.of offering a vote in the event of no deal being reached.
:10:24. > :10:25.But that its position was unlikely to change.
:10:26. > :10:28.And, anyway, government sources have told the Sunday Politics they're not
:10:29. > :10:35.That those Tory MPs who didn't back either amendment the first time
:10:36. > :10:38.round would look silly if they did, this time.
:10:39. > :10:41.It would have to be a pretty hefty lot of people changing their minds
:10:42. > :10:45.about things that have already been discussed in quite a lot of detail,
:10:46. > :10:49.last time it was in the Commons, for things to be reversed this time.
:10:50. > :10:52.There's no doubt that a number of Tory MPs are very concerned.
:10:53. > :10:54.Labour are pessimistic about the chances of enough Tory
:10:55. > :10:57.rebels backing either of the amendments in the Commons.
:10:58. > :11:00.The important thing, I think, is to focus on the fact
:11:01. > :11:03.that this is the last chance to have a say on this.
:11:04. > :11:07.If they're going to vote with us, Monday is the time to do it.
:11:08. > :11:09.Assuming the bill does pass the Commons unamended,
:11:10. > :11:12.it will go back to the Lord's on Monday night where Labour peers
:11:13. > :11:16.have already indicated they won't block it again.
:11:17. > :11:19.It means that the Brexit bill would become law and Theresa May
:11:20. > :11:23.would be free to trigger Article 50 within days.
:11:24. > :11:25.Her own deadline was the end of this month.
:11:26. > :11:31.But one minister told me there were advantages to doing it early.
:11:32. > :11:34.We're joined now from Nottingham by the Conservative MP Anna Soubry.
:11:35. > :11:36.She's previously voted against the government on the question
:11:37. > :11:43.of whether Parliament should have a final say over the EU deal.
:11:44. > :11:49.Anna Soubry, I think it was clear this morning from David Davies that
:11:50. > :11:52.what he means by meaningful vote is not what you mean by a meaningful
:11:53. > :11:57.vote. He thinks the choice for Parliament would be to either vote
:11:58. > :12:01.for the deal and if Parliament doesn't, we leave on World Trade
:12:02. > :12:07.Organisation rules, on a bare-bones structure. In the end, will he
:12:08. > :12:11.accept that in the Commons tomorrow? No, because my problem and I don't
:12:12. > :12:15.think it is a problem, but my problem, the government's problem is
:12:16. > :12:19.that what I want is then to answer this question. What happens in the
:12:20. > :12:23.event of their not being any deal? David Davies made it very clear that
:12:24. > :12:28.in the event of there being no deal, Parliament would have no say. It
:12:29. > :12:32.means through your elected representatives, the people of this
:12:33. > :12:37.country would have no say on what happens if the government doesn't
:12:38. > :12:39.get a deal. I think the request that Parliament should have a say on
:12:40. > :12:44.Parliamentary sovereignty, is perfectly reasonable. That is what I
:12:45. > :12:50.want David to say. If he says that, I won't be rebelling. If he does...
:12:51. > :12:55.They have refused to say that. Sorry. If he continues to say what
:12:56. > :13:01.he said the BBC this morning, which means that the vote will be either
:13:02. > :13:07.to accept the as negotiated or to leave on WTO rules, will you rebel
:13:08. > :13:12.on that question but no, no, sorry, if there's a deal, Parliament will
:13:13. > :13:15.have a say. So that's fine. And we will see what the deal is and we
:13:16. > :13:19.will look at the options two years down the road. When who knows
:13:20. > :13:23.what'll happen in our economy and world economy. That is one matter
:13:24. > :13:27.which I am content on. The Prime Minister, a woman of her word has
:13:28. > :13:33.said that in the event of a deal, Parliament will vote on any deal. I
:13:34. > :13:37.don't difficulty. To clarify, I will come onto that. These are important
:13:38. > :13:40.matters. I want to clarify, not argue with you. You are content that
:13:41. > :13:44.if there is a deal, we will come under no deal in a second, but if
:13:45. > :13:51.there is a deal, you are content with the choice of being able to
:13:52. > :13:53.vote for that deal or leaving on WTO terms? No, you're speculating as to
:13:54. > :13:59.what might happen in two years' time. What the options might be.
:14:00. > :14:02.Personally I find it inconceivable that the government will come back
:14:03. > :14:06.with a rubbish deal. They will either come back with a good deal,
:14:07. > :14:10.which I won't have a problem with or they will come back with no deal. To
:14:11. > :14:14.speculate about coming back with a deal, there is a variety of options.
:14:15. > :14:18.I understand that that is what the Lord amendments are about. They are
:14:19. > :14:26.about a vote at the end of the process. Do forgive me, the Lords
:14:27. > :14:28.amendment is not the same that I've voted for in Parliament. What we
:14:29. > :14:31.call the Chris Leslie amendment, which was talking about whatever the
:14:32. > :14:34.agreement is, whatever happens at the end of the negotiations,
:14:35. > :14:37.Parliament will have a vote. Parliament will have a say. The
:14:38. > :14:43.Lords amendment is a bit more technical. It is the principle of no
:14:44. > :14:47.deal that is agitating us. Let's clarify on this. They are
:14:48. > :14:51.complicated matters. What do you want the government to say? What do
:14:52. > :14:56.you want David Davis to say tomorrow on what should the Parliamentary
:14:57. > :15:00.process should be if there is no deal? Quite. I want a commitment
:15:01. > :15:03.from him that in the event of no deal, it will come into Parliament
:15:04. > :15:11.and Parliament will determine what happens next. It could be that in
:15:12. > :15:15.the event of no deal, the best thing is for us to jump off the cliff into
:15:16. > :15:18.WTO tariff is. I find it unlikely but that might be the reality. There
:15:19. > :15:23.might be other alternatives. Most importantly, including saying to the
:15:24. > :15:25.government, go back, carry on. The question that everybody has to ask
:15:26. > :15:36.is, why won't the government give My fear is what this is about is
:15:37. > :15:41.asked deliberately, not the Prime Minister, but others deliberately
:15:42. > :15:46.ensuring we have no deal and no deal pretty soon and in that event, we
:15:47. > :15:51.jumped off the cliff onto WTO tariffs and nobody in this country
:15:52. > :15:57.and the people of this country do not have a say. My constituents did
:15:58. > :16:01.not vote for hard Brexit. You do not want the government to
:16:02. > :16:07.have the ability if there is no deal to automatically fall back on the
:16:08. > :16:12.WTO rules? Quite. It is as simple as that. We are now speculating about
:16:13. > :16:18.what will happen in two years. I want to find out what happens
:16:19. > :16:23.tomorrow. What will you do if you don't get that assurance? I will
:16:24. > :16:27.either abstain, or I will vote to keep this amendment within the Bill.
:16:28. > :16:32.I will either vote against my government, which I do not do
:16:33. > :16:35.likely, I have never voted against my government until the Chris Leslie
:16:36. > :16:39.clause when the Bill was going through, or I will abstain, which
:16:40. > :16:43.has pretty much the same effect because it comes into the Commons
:16:44. > :16:49.with both amendments so you have positively to vote to take the map.
:16:50. > :16:54.Can you give us an idea of how many like-minded conservative colleagues
:16:55. > :17:00.there are. I genuinely do not know. You must talk to each other. I do
:17:01. > :17:07.not talk to every member of my party. You know people who are
:17:08. > :17:11.like-minded. I do. I am not doing numbers games. I know you want that
:17:12. > :17:17.but I genuinely do not know the figure. I think this is an
:17:18. > :17:23.uncomfortable truth. People have to understand what has happened in our
:17:24. > :17:27.country, two particular newspapers, creating an atmosphere and setting
:17:28. > :17:30.an agenda and I think many people are rather concerned, some
:17:31. > :17:36.frightened, to put their head over the parapet. There are many millions
:17:37. > :17:41.of people who feel totally excluded from this process. Many of them
:17:42. > :17:44.voted to remain. And they have lost their voice. We have covered the
:17:45. > :17:45.ground I wanted to. We're joined now by the Ukip MEP
:17:46. > :17:58.and former leader Nigel Farage. Article 50 triggered, we are leaving
:17:59. > :18:02.the EU, the single market and the customs union. What is left you to
:18:03. > :18:06.complain about? All of that will happen and hopefully we will get the
:18:07. > :18:10.triggered this week which is good news. What worries me a little I'm
:18:11. > :18:15.not sure the government recognises how strong their handers. At the
:18:16. > :18:18.summit in Brussels, the word in the corridors is that we are prepared to
:18:19. > :18:23.give away fishing waters as a bargaining chip and the worry is
:18:24. > :18:27.what deal we get. Are we leaving, yes I am pleased about that. You are
:18:28. > :18:32.under relevant voice in the deal because the deal will be voted on in
:18:33. > :18:36.Parliament and you have one MP. You are missing the point, the real vote
:18:37. > :18:41.in parliament is not in London but Strasbourg. This is perhaps the
:18:42. > :18:45.biggest obstacle the British Government faces. Not what happens
:18:46. > :18:50.in the Commons that the end of the two years, the European Parliament
:18:51. > :18:55.could veto the deal. What that means is people need to adopt a different
:18:56. > :18:57.approach. We do not need to be lobbying in the corridors of
:18:58. > :19:03.Brussels to get a good deal, we need is a country to be out there talking
:19:04. > :19:07.to the German car workers and Belgian chocolate makers, putting as
:19:08. > :19:11.much pressure as we can on politicians from across Europe to
:19:12. > :19:16.come to a sensible arrangement. It is in their interests more than
:19:17. > :19:23.ours. In what way is the vision of Brexit set out by David Davis any
:19:24. > :19:26.different from your own? I am delighted there are people now
:19:27. > :19:34.adopting the position I argued for many years. Good. But now... Like
:19:35. > :19:40.Douglas Carswell, he said he found David Davis' performers this morning
:19:41. > :19:45.reassuring. It is. And just as when Theresa May was Home Secretary every
:19:46. > :19:48.performance she gave was hugely reassuring. She was seen to be a
:19:49. > :19:55.heroine after her conference speeches and then did not deliver. I
:19:56. > :20:01.am concerned that even before we start we are making concessions. You
:20:02. > :20:05.described in the EU's divorce bill demands, 60 billion euros is floated
:20:06. > :20:11.around. You said it is laughable and I understand that. Do you maintain
:20:12. > :20:19.that we will not have to pay a penny to leave? It is nine months since we
:20:20. > :20:25.voted exit and assuming the trigger of Article 50, we would have paid 30
:20:26. > :20:29.billion in since we had a vote. We are still members. But honestly, I
:20:30. > :20:33.do not think there is an appetite for us to pay a massive divorce
:20:34. > :20:41.Bill. There are assets also. Not a penny? There will be some ongoing
:20:42. > :20:47.commitments, but the numbers talked about our 50, ?60 billion, they are
:20:48. > :20:52.frankly laughable. I am trying to find out if you are prepared to
:20:53. > :20:56.accept some kind of exit cost, it may be nowhere near 60 billion. We
:20:57. > :20:59.have to do a net agreement, the government briefed about our share
:21:00. > :21:06.of the European Union investment bank. Would you accept a
:21:07. > :21:11.transitional arrangement, deal, five, ten billion, as part of the
:21:12. > :21:16.divorce settlement? We are painted net ?30 million every single day at
:21:17. > :21:21.the moment, ?10 billion plus every year. That is just our contribution.
:21:22. > :21:28.We are going to make a massive saving on this. What do you make of
:21:29. > :21:33.what Anna Soubry said, that if there is no deal, and it is being talked
:21:34. > :21:37.about more. Maybe the government managing expectations. There is an
:21:38. > :21:42.expectation we will have a deal, but if there is no deal, that the
:21:43. > :21:47.government cannot just go to WTO rules, but it has to have a vote in
:21:48. > :21:50.parliament? By the time we get to that there will be a general
:21:51. > :21:56.election coming down the tracks and I suspect that if at the end of the
:21:57. > :22:00.two-year process there is no deal and by the way, no deal is a lot
:22:01. > :22:05.better for the nation than where we currently are, because we freed of
:22:06. > :22:08.regulations and able to make our own deals in the world. I think what
:22:09. > :22:15.would happen, and if Parliament said it did not back, at the end of the
:22:16. > :22:22.negotiation a general election would happen quickly. According to reports
:22:23. > :22:27.this morning, one of your most senior aides has passed a dossier to
:22:28. > :22:31.police claiming Tories committed electoral fraud in Thanet South, the
:22:32. > :22:37.seat contested in the election. What evidence to you have? I read that in
:22:38. > :22:40.the newspapers as you have. I am not going to comment on it. Will you not
:22:41. > :22:47.aware of the contents of the dossier? I am not aware of the
:22:48. > :22:53.dossier. He was your election strategists. I am dubious as to
:22:54. > :22:58.whether this dossier exists at all. Perhaps the newspapers have got this
:22:59. > :23:06.wrong. Concerns about the downloading of data the took place
:23:07. > :23:13.in that constituency, there are. Allegedly, he has refuted it, was it
:23:14. > :23:18.done by your MP to give information to the Tories, do you have evidence
:23:19. > :23:25.about? We have evidence Mr Carswell downloaded information, we have no
:23:26. > :23:29.evidence what he did with it. It is not just your aide who has been
:23:30. > :23:35.making allegations against the Conservatives in Thanet South and
:23:36. > :23:42.other seats, if the evidence was to be substantial, and if it was to
:23:43. > :23:46.result in another by-election being called an Thanet South had to be
:23:47. > :23:51.fought again, would you be the Ukip candidate? I probably would. You
:23:52. > :23:57.probably would? Yes. Just probably? Just probably. It would be your
:23:58. > :24:01.eighth attempt. Winning seats in parliament under first past the post
:24:02. > :24:03.is not the only way to change politics in Britain and I would like
:24:04. > :24:10.to think I proved that. Let's go back to Anna Soubry. The implication
:24:11. > :24:14.of what we were saying on the panel at the start of the show and what
:24:15. > :24:19.Nigel Farage was saying there would be that if at the end of the process
:24:20. > :24:23.whatever the vote, if the government were to lose it, it would provoke a
:24:24. > :24:28.general election properly. I think that would be right. Let's get real.
:24:29. > :24:32.The government is not going to come to Parliament with anything other
:24:33. > :24:40.than something it believes is a good deal and if it rejected it, would be
:24:41. > :24:44.unlikely, there would be a de facto vote of no confidence and it would
:24:45. > :24:49.be within the fixed term Parliaments act and that be it. The problem is,
:24:50. > :24:55.more likely, because of the story put up about the 50 billion, 60
:24:56. > :24:58.billion and you look at the way things are flagged up that both the
:24:59. > :25:03.Prime Minister and Boris Johnson saying, we should be asking them for
:25:04. > :25:08.money back, I think the big fear and the fear I have is we will be
:25:09. > :25:13.crashing out in six months. You think we could leave as quickly as
:25:14. > :25:19.six months. Explain that. I think they will stoke up the demand from
:25:20. > :25:23.the EU for 50, 60 billion back and my real concern is that within six
:25:24. > :25:28.months, where we're not making much progress, maybe nine months, and
:25:29. > :25:32.people are getting increasingly fed up with the EU because they are told
:25:33. > :25:36.it wants unreasonable demands, and then the crash. I think what is
:25:37. > :25:41.happening is the government is putting in place scaffolding at the
:25:42. > :25:46.bottom of the cliff to break our fall when we come to fall off that
:25:47. > :25:51.cliff and I think many in government are preparing not for a two-year
:25:52. > :25:57.process, but six, to nine months, off the cliff, out we go. That is my
:25:58. > :26:01.fear. That is interesting. I have not heard that express before by
:26:02. > :26:08.someone in your position. I suspect you have made Nigel Farage's date.
:26:09. > :26:14.It is a lovely thought. I would say to Anna Soubry she is out of date
:26:15. > :26:17.with this. 40 years ago there was a good argument for joining the common
:26:18. > :26:22.market because tariffs around the world was so high. That has changed
:26:23. > :26:26.with the World Trade Organisation. We are leaving the EU and rejoining
:26:27. > :26:35.a great big world and it is exciting. She was giving an
:26:36. > :26:36.interesting perspective on what could happen in nine months rather
:26:37. > :26:41.than two years. I thank you both. It was Philip Hammond's first
:26:42. > :26:43.budget on Wednesday - billed as a steady-as-she-goes
:26:44. > :26:49.affair, but turned out to cause uproar after the Chancellor appeared
:26:50. > :26:51.to contradict a Tory manifesto commitment with an increase
:26:52. > :26:53.in national insurance contributions. The aim was to address what some see
:26:54. > :27:02.as an imbalance in the tax system, where employees pay
:27:03. > :27:04.more National Insurance The controversy centres
:27:05. > :27:07.on increasing the so-called class 4 rate for the self-employed who make
:27:08. > :27:10.a profit of more than ?8,060 a year. It will go up in stages
:27:11. > :27:17.from 9% to 11% in 2019. The changes mean that over one
:27:18. > :27:21.and a half million will pay on average ?240 a year
:27:22. > :27:25.more in contributions. Some Conservative MPs were unhappy,
:27:26. > :27:31.with even the Wales Minister saying: "I will apologise to every
:27:32. > :27:34.voter in Wales that read the Conservative manifesto
:27:35. > :27:35.in the 2015 election." The Sun labelled Philip
:27:36. > :27:41.Hammond "spite van man". The Daily Mail called the budget
:27:42. > :27:43."no laughing matter". By Thursday, Theresa May
:27:44. > :27:46.said the government One of the first things I did
:27:47. > :27:52.as Prime Minister was to commission Matthew Taylor to review the rights
:27:53. > :27:56.and protections that were available to self-employed workers
:27:57. > :27:59.and whether they should be enhanced. People will be able to look
:28:00. > :28:01.at the government paper when we produce it, showing
:28:02. > :28:04.all our changes, and take And, of course, the Chancellor will
:28:05. > :28:09.be speaking, as will his ministers, to MPs, businesspeople and others
:28:10. > :28:13.to listen to the concerns. Well, the man you heard mentioned
:28:14. > :28:15.there, Matthew Taylor, has the job of producing
:28:16. > :28:29.a report into the future Welcome. The Chancellor has decided
:28:30. > :28:33.the self-employed should pay almost the same in National Insurance, not
:28:34. > :28:38.the same but almost, as the employed will stop what is left of your
:28:39. > :28:41.commission? The commission has a broader frame of reference and we
:28:42. > :28:48.are interested in the quality of work in the economy at the heart of
:28:49. > :28:53.what I hope will be proposing is a set of shifts that will improve the
:28:54. > :28:57.quality of that work so we have an economy where all work is fair and
:28:58. > :29:00.decent and all jobs give people scope for development and
:29:01. > :29:09.fulfilment. The issue of taxes a small part. You will cover that? We
:29:10. > :29:11.will, because the tax system and employment regulation system drive
:29:12. > :29:18.particular behaviours in our labour market. You approve I think of the
:29:19. > :29:23.general direction of this policy of raising National Insurance on the
:29:24. > :29:28.self-employed. Taxing them in return perhaps for more state benefits. Why
:29:29. > :29:32.are so many others on the left against it from Tim Farron to John
:29:33. > :29:36.McDonnell? Tax rises are unpopular and it is the role of the opposition
:29:37. > :29:41.parties to make capital from unpopular tax rises. I think as tax
:29:42. > :29:45.rises go this is broadly progressive. There are self-employed
:29:46. > :29:50.people on low incomes and they will be better off. It is economic league
:29:51. > :29:52.rational because the reason for the difference in National Insurance --
:29:53. > :29:58.economically. It was to do with state entitlements. The government
:29:59. > :30:03.is consulting about paid parental leave. A series of governments have
:30:04. > :30:08.not been good about thinking about medium sustainability of the tax
:30:09. > :30:12.base. Self-employment is growing. But it is eroding the tax base. It
:30:13. > :30:19.is important to address those issues. A number of think tanks have
:30:20. > :30:24.said this is a progressive move. Yet, a number of left-wing
:30:25. > :30:29.politicians have been against it. And a number of Tories have said
:30:30. > :30:33.this is a progressive move and not a Tory government move, the balance of
:30:34. > :30:38.you will pay more tax, but you will get more state benefits is not a
:30:39. > :30:42.Tory approach to things. That a Tory approach will be you will pay less
:30:43. > :30:45.tax but entitled to fewer benefits as well.
:30:46. > :30:55.I preferred in and policies to politics -- I prefer policies. When
:30:56. > :30:59.people look at the policy and when they look the fact that there is no
:31:00. > :31:01.real historical basis for that big national insurance differential,
:31:02. > :31:06.they see it is a sensible policy. I don't have to deal with the
:31:07. > :31:09.politics. There has been a huge growth in self-employment from the
:31:10. > :31:10.turn of the millennium. It's been strongest amongst older workers,
:31:11. > :31:19.women part-timers. Do you have any idea, do you have
:31:20. > :31:23.the data in your commission that could tell us how many are taking
:31:24. > :31:27.self-employment because they like the flexibility and they like the
:31:28. > :31:32.tax advantages that come with it, too, or they are being forced into
:31:33. > :31:36.it by employers who don't want the extra costs of employment? Do we
:31:37. > :31:43.know the difference? We do, broadly. Most surveys on self-employment and
:31:44. > :31:46.flexible forms of employment suggest about two thirds to three quarters
:31:47. > :31:50.enjoy it, they like the flexibility, they like the autonomy and about a
:31:51. > :31:54.third to one quarter are less happy. That tends to be because they would
:31:55. > :31:57.like to have a full-time permanent job. It is not necessary that they
:31:58. > :32:02.don't enjoy what they are doing, they would like to do other things.
:32:03. > :32:06.And some of the protections that come with it? Yes. There are some
:32:07. > :32:09.people who are forced into southern employees by high-risk but also some
:32:10. > :32:14.people feel like they can't get a proper job as it were. --
:32:15. > :32:20.self-employment by people who hire them. It is on the narrow matter of
:32:21. > :32:24.tax revenues but if you are employed on ?32,000 the state will take over
:32:25. > :32:28.?6,000 in national insurance contributions, that is quite chunky.
:32:29. > :32:32.If you are self-employed it is ?2300. But the big difference
:32:33. > :32:39.between those figures isn't what the employee is paying, it's the
:32:40. > :32:43.employer's contributions up to almost 14%, and cupped for as much
:32:44. > :32:51.as you are paid. What do you do about employers' contributions for
:32:52. > :32:56.the self employed? -- it is uncapped for as much. What I recommend is
:32:57. > :33:00.that we should probably move from taxing employment to taxing labour.
:33:01. > :33:04.We should probably have a more level playing field so it doesn't really
:33:05. > :33:08.matter... Explained that I thought it was the same thing. If you are a
:33:09. > :33:12.self-employed gardener, you are a different tax regime to a gardener
:33:13. > :33:20.who works for a gardening firm. On the individual side and on the firm
:33:21. > :33:24.side. As we see new business models, so-called gig working, partly with
:33:25. > :33:29.technology, we need a more level playing field saying that we're
:33:30. > :33:33.taxing people's work, not the form in which they deliver that. That is
:33:34. > :33:35.part of the reason we have seen the growth of particular business
:33:36. > :33:40.models. They are innovative and creative and partly driven by the
:33:41. > :33:45.fact that if you can describe yourself as self-employed there are
:33:46. > :33:47.tax advantages. Coming out in June? Will you come back and talk to us?
:33:48. > :33:49.Yes. We say goodbye to viewers
:33:50. > :33:53.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,
:33:54. > :33:58.we'll be talking to the former Tory MP who was the root
:33:59. > :34:13.of Donald Trump's allegation Coming up on the Sunday Politics
:34:14. > :34:21.here in the South West: The farmers fearing the Government's Brexit
:34:22. > :34:23.plans for the industry You can't stop subsidies
:34:24. > :34:34.at midnight 2020. We're not hearing any message
:34:35. > :34:42.from the government. And for the next 20 minutes,
:34:43. > :34:45.I'm joined by the Conservative MP for South West Devon Gary Streeter
:34:46. > :34:47.and the former Labour MP for the next-door constituency
:34:48. > :34:49.of Plymouth Moor View Alison The Bill triggering Article 50
:34:50. > :34:55.returns to the Commons tomorrow, including the Lords' amendment
:34:56. > :34:57.giving Parliament a meaningful vote The Government is hoping
:34:58. > :35:01.to get that removed. I've thought about this a lot
:35:02. > :35:08.because it's hugely important we get the best possible deal
:35:09. > :35:10.from our negotiations with Brussels. I've come to the conclusion,
:35:11. > :35:14.perhaps slightly perversely in my own opinion, that the best
:35:15. > :35:18.thing is not to fetter the hand of the Prime Minister
:35:19. > :35:21.in any way, shape or form. So just give her the authority
:35:22. > :35:24.to trigger Article 50, get on with negotiations and bring
:35:25. > :35:29.back the best possible deal. The vote she and the government
:35:30. > :35:32.are offering is a vote Or we just leave
:35:33. > :35:37.anyway with no deal? Whatever the act says,
:35:38. > :35:49.because it's going to be very nearly the end of the two years anyway,
:35:50. > :35:52.what ever vote Parliament has It's going to be
:35:53. > :36:01.take it or leave it. So let's not fetter her hand at all,
:36:02. > :36:04.give her the opportunity There are apparently a lot
:36:05. > :36:07.of Labour Party members, including a lot of the new members,
:36:08. > :36:10.who joined in support of Jeremy Corbyn, are very unhappy
:36:11. > :36:14.he and the Labour Party are not opposing the Government more
:36:15. > :36:16.vigorously or at all Keir Starmer and is doing
:36:17. > :36:23.a superb job in Parliament. You have largely rubber-stamped
:36:24. > :36:25.the Government's plan, haven't you? We have said she should
:36:26. > :36:28.go ahead and trigger. I think that's
:36:29. > :36:29.the right thing to do. However, I disagree and I think
:36:30. > :36:35.Parliament does need to take a view on what is on the table at the end
:36:36. > :36:38.of the two years. I don't think it fetters her hand
:36:39. > :36:41.because she is bringing it By then, the public mood
:36:42. > :36:50.will have changed, I think. I'm not suggesting we should throw
:36:51. > :36:54.it all up here again. We are going to be talking
:36:55. > :36:56.later about farming You know, those groups
:36:57. > :36:59.will particularly want to know They sound delicious,
:37:00. > :37:05.but the prospect of cheap chlorine-washed chickens
:37:06. > :37:06.being imported from America as a result of a post Brexit trade
:37:07. > :37:09.deal is worrying farmers. The Farming Minister was asked
:37:10. > :37:12.to guarantee the chickens wouldn't find their way on to menus here,
:37:13. > :37:14.undercutting British But he left the question open,
:37:15. > :37:17.adding another ingredient to what some claim is an uncertain
:37:18. > :37:20.future for UK farmers. As Anna Varle reports,
:37:21. > :37:22.producers on both sides of the Brexit debate
:37:23. > :37:23.are increasingly anxious about the many important issues
:37:24. > :37:28.still to be resolved. But farmers for and against leaving
:37:29. > :37:32.Europe are becoming more and more nervous about the new beginning
:37:33. > :37:34.they are facing. Most of us do not want
:37:35. > :37:44.to farm as subsidies. But you can't stop
:37:45. > :37:46.subsidies at midnight 2020. We are not hearing any
:37:47. > :37:50.message from Government. We are not getting confidence
:37:51. > :37:54.from our politicians, in terms of the reassurances
:37:55. > :37:57.that we need to be able Not only do they feel in the dark
:37:58. > :38:06.and unable to plan for the future, there is also concern over
:38:07. > :38:09.what happens when the subsidy system European subsidies make up around
:38:10. > :38:12.one third of a farmer's income. So when we leave the EU,
:38:13. > :38:15.they will stop. Now, there are some farmers
:38:16. > :38:18.who are concerned that if we don't have a system to replace them,
:38:19. > :38:20.this could be disastrous The impact if we have no support
:38:21. > :38:24.payment of any description is going to be absolutely
:38:25. > :38:25.catastrophic for Because we move from a position
:38:26. > :38:38.where near 90-odd% of farmers were reliant on that
:38:39. > :38:47.to keep their businesses afloat. This week, the Farming Minister gave
:38:48. > :38:50.little to reassure the industry, saying it will be the end
:38:51. > :38:52.of next year before he has a clear plan
:38:53. > :38:55.as to what happens next. By the end of next year,
:38:56. > :38:58.we would want to be in a position where we are showing greater clarity
:38:59. > :39:00.of what was going where we are showing greater
:39:01. > :39:03.clarity of what is going There are fears new trade agreements
:39:04. > :39:13.could mean cheaper imports, The minister was asked to rule that
:39:14. > :39:18.out by Devon MP Neil Parish. I'm not convinced under a trade deal
:39:19. > :39:22.with America that you would be able You might be able to market it
:39:23. > :39:28.in a slightly different way, but after a while, the consumer
:39:29. > :39:31.will decide that perhaps a cheaper But at this point, George uses
:39:32. > :39:35.wasn't ruling anything out. If we decided, for instance,
:39:36. > :39:39.to open discussions with, for the sake of argument,
:39:40. > :39:44.say the United States, we would have to do give consideration to things
:39:45. > :39:46.such as consumer acceptability The minister says a trade agreement
:39:47. > :39:49.with Europe comes first. Negotiations with other
:39:50. > :40:04.countries will follow. But farmers like Richard Haddock
:40:05. > :40:07.say it needs to be a level playing field for them to compete
:40:08. > :40:10.on the world stage. If they are going to import to ours,
:40:11. > :40:13.which they are going to try and do with negotiations,
:40:14. > :40:15.we must have similar And, most of all, the same welfare
:40:16. > :40:31.rules and regulations because ours are probably
:40:32. > :40:42.the highest in Europe. The political calendar might
:40:43. > :40:45.conflict with the farming cycle, but, for now, the future seems very
:40:46. > :40:48.much unknown for both British farmers are very
:40:49. > :40:51.proud of the welfare Could the minister not simply have
:40:52. > :40:55.said, we have very high standards and in future when we are outside
:40:56. > :40:58.the EU, we will insist that all produce meets the same standards
:40:59. > :41:01.that British farms have to meet? Now, of course, ministers
:41:02. > :41:06.are working on this. This is one of the
:41:07. > :41:08.complications of Brexit. Why many people, including myself,
:41:09. > :41:10.said in the run-up... I said this is so complicated,
:41:11. > :41:16.to expect us to conclude everything within a couple of years
:41:17. > :41:19.and have a trade deal with all these other countries,
:41:20. > :41:21.we almost said it can't be done. The point is, ministers
:41:22. > :41:25.are working on this, but it is complicated
:41:26. > :41:28.and we won't know the shape of it There is potentially conflict
:41:29. > :41:32.here between the desire potentially to have this trade deal in whatever
:41:33. > :41:35.form of United States on the one hand, and of course
:41:36. > :41:37.the farmers concerns, saying they don't want the market
:41:38. > :41:39.flooded with cheap farm produce One of the problems
:41:40. > :41:44.is it is supermarkets that will be making the decisions
:41:45. > :41:46.about what products they buy in. Of course, consumers often want
:41:47. > :41:48.the cheapest product. Irrespective of health
:41:49. > :41:50.and safety standards. We will start our negotiations
:41:51. > :41:54.with any country at the very highest level of health and safety
:41:55. > :41:56.standards, but when we will end level of health and safety
:41:57. > :41:59.standards, but where we will end Do you think it is ultimately
:42:00. > :42:03.the consumer who should decide? Neil Parish is suggesting,
:42:04. > :42:06.in that case, it will be a green light to all of this
:42:07. > :42:08.cheap chlorine-washed chicken? Farmers also, the point
:42:09. > :42:11.that was being made, need certainty. If they are planning ahead
:42:12. > :42:14.on what produce to bring forward, what to grow and so on,
:42:15. > :42:17.they don't want the decision that is just going to be
:42:18. > :42:21.foisted on them and, wer are going to have a discussion
:42:22. > :42:23.with America You're going to see people
:42:24. > :42:30.leaving the market. You're going to see chicken farm
:42:31. > :42:32.is closing because they perceive that they are going to be undercut
:42:33. > :42:35.by these non-welfare We are already seeing people
:42:36. > :42:41.thinking about stopping farming. The future of agriculture
:42:42. > :42:48.post-Brexit is a massive topic. The other point that was drawn out
:42:49. > :42:51.there was this issue of subsidies. We talk about the uncertainties
:42:52. > :42:54.going into the post-Brexit era. For farmers, this is
:42:55. > :42:55.very focused, isn't it? The vast majority of farmers rely
:42:56. > :43:03.heavily on subsidies for the income. The vast majority of
:43:04. > :43:05.farmers rely heavily They are facing that
:43:06. > :43:08.just disappearing And the minister saying,
:43:09. > :43:12.we will wait another year before we tell you what we are going
:43:13. > :43:15.to do about it. It is three years, but yes,
:43:16. > :43:17.after that, we might be It is clumsy and in many ways
:43:18. > :43:28.it is the wrong thing. So there is the opportunity
:43:29. > :43:30.to get this right. For our relationship
:43:31. > :43:32.with what was the European Union to be much more skilful
:43:33. > :43:35.and for the scheme for our farmers Including entry into
:43:36. > :43:38.the marketplace of younger people, But, anecdotally, I have heard that
:43:39. > :43:42.farmers say it is fine, but Government Ministers
:43:43. > :43:57.are not listening to them. They are not getting past
:43:58. > :44:00.George Eustice and not into the big If you take anything away, Gary,
:44:01. > :44:05.perhaps that is something you should be pressing
:44:06. > :44:08.for because that is what they want. They want to feel their
:44:09. > :44:10.concerns are being heard. We need to get this in place over
:44:11. > :44:17.the next two years and we've got OK, well, perhaps unsurprisingly,
:44:18. > :44:21.George Eustice was also under pressure to reveal more about how
:44:22. > :44:23.the South West's fishing fleets That will be an issue
:44:24. > :44:27.for the negotiations. It depends on what you've got
:44:28. > :44:30.to offer and what you want. I don't think he was saying that
:44:31. > :44:33.during the campaign, It was much more
:44:34. > :44:41.about much more fish. I think there should be,
:44:42. > :44:43.but I want to hear the answer He was being punished
:44:44. > :45:00.for assurances and certainty. Simply put, fishermen are saying,
:45:01. > :45:18.and please excuse the language, we don't want to be screwed
:45:19. > :45:22.on the way out of Europe in the same And the fact they can only take 8%
:45:23. > :45:32.of the catch from the immediate area that we are sitting in here,
:45:33. > :45:35.compared with some of our foreign colleagues in Europe,
:45:36. > :45:37.they don't want to see that happen. They want to see an improvement
:45:38. > :45:39.on that position. And the minister is giving them
:45:40. > :45:59.no guarantees at all. The context for all of this
:46:00. > :46:01.is that our fishermen will still want to sell at least 80%
:46:02. > :46:04.of their produce into So the European Parliament has
:46:05. > :46:08.already said, in that case, ideally, we want the same degree of access
:46:09. > :46:11.that French, Spanish and Dutch And that's going to be
:46:12. > :46:15.the incentive, isn't it? Because we export most
:46:16. > :46:18.of our fish caught into Europe, there is going to be horse trading
:46:19. > :46:22.to do a deal about who can Second point, conservation
:46:23. > :46:24.will still have to be introduced by us domestically,
:46:25. > :46:28.the same way as it is in the common fisheries policy because you cannot
:46:29. > :46:30.just over fish PCs and leave nothing You have also got the concerns that
:46:31. > :46:34.once Article 50 is triggered, various other ancient conventions
:46:35. > :46:37.going back to the 1960s And those at the moment allow many
:46:38. > :46:41.more countries to come and fish At the risk of getting very
:46:42. > :46:45.technical, this was raised this week and it seems the Government
:46:46. > :46:48.at the moment has no concrete plans to get out of that convention,
:46:49. > :46:50.which apparently it Fishermen are incandescent
:46:51. > :46:56.because they might accept there will be some access
:46:57. > :46:59.from foreign boats, the one place they don't want
:47:00. > :47:01.it is within the 6-12 mile limit. It will affect our
:47:02. > :47:03.coastal communities. Gary, should the minister just say,
:47:04. > :47:06.on this, which is entirely in our gift domestic way,
:47:07. > :47:09.tied up a little bit in the common fisheries policy admittedly,
:47:10. > :47:11.of course we are going to give notice we are coming out of this
:47:12. > :47:15.thing so that foreign boats can't And probably that is
:47:16. > :47:18.where we will end up. At the moment, I think
:47:19. > :47:21.the government didn't expect people At the moment, I think
:47:22. > :47:23.the Government didn't expect people Detailed plans have been put
:47:24. > :47:28.in place in many areas, but in farming and fishing,
:47:29. > :47:31.and off a lot of work to do. but in farming and fishing,
:47:32. > :47:34.an awful lot of work to do. But the point of course that
:47:35. > :47:37.Neil Parish was making in his dialogue with George Hewson
:47:38. > :47:40.is that Neil was on the remain side of the debate, George was very much
:47:41. > :47:44.a campaigner on the leave side. Is it not reasonable
:47:45. > :47:45.when it is somebody like George Eustice to say,
:47:46. > :47:47.you know, you're not You are not somebody who voted
:47:48. > :47:51.remain and has to knuckle down and get used to it,
:47:52. > :47:54.you are somebody who should have A lot of things were said by people
:47:55. > :47:59.on the leave campaign which frankly In politics over the last 12 months,
:48:00. > :48:04.we have seen a very low moment And a very close decision
:48:05. > :48:10.which we now have to implement. There are so many complications
:48:11. > :48:13.that it will take a very long time. The two words I recommend you will
:48:14. > :48:17.hear a lot of in the next five Because this cannot
:48:18. > :48:19.be done in two years. 30 miles off the Cornish coast
:48:20. > :48:26.and running out of money. The tiny Isles of Scilly Council
:48:27. > :48:29.is facing a cash crisis which could put important
:48:30. > :48:31.services at risk. Councillors have voted
:48:32. > :48:32.for cuts, and the local MP is calling on the Government
:48:33. > :48:35.to provide more help. As John Danks reports,
:48:36. > :48:37.it is bringing back memories of the bigger financial crisis faced
:48:38. > :48:46.by one of the islands' most Harold Wilson loved the Isles
:48:47. > :48:48.of Scilly so much he built A retreat from the hustle
:48:49. > :48:53.and bustle of political life. But in contrast to this
:48:54. > :48:55.island paradise, in 1976, Amid an economic crisis brought
:48:56. > :48:59.on by rising unemployment and rocketing inflation,
:49:00. > :49:01.he resigned as Prime Minister. Months later, the Labour Government
:49:02. > :49:03.borrowed $3.9 billion from the International Monetary
:49:04. > :49:05.Fund. Four decades on, and Wilson's
:49:06. > :49:15.beloved Isles of Scilly face The island's small unitary authority
:49:16. > :49:19.needing a ?3 million loan The problem is, we are not
:49:20. > :49:23.big enough to be able OK, we have a council tax,
:49:24. > :49:34.but because there is only 2,000 people here, it is a job
:49:35. > :49:36.to make ends meet. Yet this tiny authority
:49:37. > :49:38.looks after an airport, waste and water, a school,
:49:39. > :49:41.a care home and even We have five fire engines
:49:42. > :49:46.within a three-mile Central Government needs to notice
:49:47. > :50:00.we have these massive structural geographical issues
:50:01. > :50:02.which are causing us While it is a small community,
:50:03. > :50:11.there are needs are urgent, they are pressing and they must
:50:12. > :50:13.be resolved quickly. This week, the council approved
:50:14. > :50:15.?600,000 worth of savings The tourist information
:50:16. > :50:18.Centre on St Marys has lost its funding of around ?50,000,
:50:19. > :50:20.creating uncertainty The businesses recognise
:50:21. > :50:25.on the island that tourism is an important part
:50:26. > :50:28.of the economy here. The businesses and visitors
:50:29. > :50:34.themselves have to pay their way We will be putting in our funding,
:50:35. > :50:42.as will our partners to make sure But we will always be reliant
:50:43. > :50:47.on the council for certain services, But the owner of this holiday
:50:48. > :50:50.apartment says maybe the council I think it would be a shame
:50:51. > :50:57.if we ever lost our ability But then the implementation of those
:50:58. > :51:07.policies are perhaps Others warn that handing over
:51:08. > :51:13.the reins to an off island A lot of people do think we could be
:51:14. > :51:21.taken over by Cornwall. Five years ago, I might have
:51:22. > :51:23.thought the same thing. But once you are at the sharp end
:51:24. > :51:27.of it, you realise that it It would be turned into
:51:28. > :51:36.a beautiful bird sanctuary With a Government plan to make
:51:37. > :51:41.councils self-sufficient by 2020, there are calls for the Isles
:51:42. > :51:44.of Scilly to be seen If cut loose by Westminster,
:51:45. > :51:48.they would almost certainly I obviously don't expect either
:51:49. > :51:56.of you to have detailed knowledge of the Isles of Scilly,
:51:57. > :51:59.you will be relieved at that. But this is arguably an extreme case
:52:00. > :52:02.of the kind of financial dire straits that particularly small
:52:03. > :52:04.councils are finding themselves I think the lesson is that
:52:05. > :52:09.in the 21st-century, small councils They cannot deliver
:52:10. > :52:13.the services that people need. And the sooner we march
:52:14. > :52:15.towards unitary authorities throughout the south-west
:52:16. > :52:17.and the rest of the Because the current system is a mess
:52:18. > :52:22.and is not really working. Dorset, of course, is possibly
:52:23. > :52:26.on the verge of that. We are waiting to see
:52:27. > :52:32.whether the Government approves it. Devon and Somerset are pretty much
:52:33. > :52:34.holding out against it, Yes, but I think we might see some
:52:35. > :52:40.movement on that later on this year because I think most people now
:52:41. > :52:42.recognise that two tier authorities, lots of confusion, double spending,
:52:43. > :52:45.it doesn't work and we need to move The last Labour Government
:52:46. > :52:53.was a great champion of unitaries. They come up against
:52:54. > :53:02.an awful lot of opposition. Underlying all of this,
:53:03. > :53:06.the Scilly Isles are a microchosm of what is going on
:53:07. > :53:07.across the country. They cannot cope because
:53:08. > :53:12.they are so small. A 63% cutting core funding to local
:53:13. > :53:15.government in England is having a massive effect on authorities
:53:16. > :53:17.the size of Plymouth. They're having to make quite
:53:18. > :53:19.significant cuts to services. There will be others
:53:20. > :53:29.like the Scilly Isles. Unitaries are part of the answer,
:53:30. > :53:32.but they are not the sole answer. As we heard they are,
:53:33. > :53:34.the Government's plan is that councils should be
:53:35. > :53:36.supposedly self financing. Somewhere the size
:53:37. > :53:47.of the Scilly Isles, with the revenue problems,
:53:48. > :53:49.must be greeting that with horror? It is a special case,
:53:50. > :53:54.I think the Isles of Scilly. Derek Thomas is fighting hard
:53:55. > :53:57.to try to get some extra support. But don't forget, by 2020,
:53:58. > :54:00.all of the business rates collected I don't know, I think Plymouth
:54:01. > :54:05.could do quite well out of that. But I think Alison is making
:54:06. > :54:07.an important point. We need larger unitary
:54:08. > :54:09.authorities properly funded, either locally or nationally,
:54:10. > :54:11.delivering excellent services. Actually, even after four
:54:12. > :54:13.or five years of austerity, we've now got Devon and Plymouth
:54:14. > :54:15.particularly still offering There is still a good quality
:54:16. > :54:25.of service to be had locally. Now our regular round-up
:54:26. > :54:38.of the political week in 60 seconds. Ukip's William Dartmouth
:54:39. > :54:39.was accused of lying about his involvement
:54:40. > :54:41.in a wind farm. Three years ago, the MEP denied
:54:42. > :54:44.knowing about plans to have wind turbines on land he had given
:54:45. > :54:46.to a relative. But it since emerged
:54:47. > :54:48.he had been involved William Dartmouth says
:54:49. > :54:55.he was ambushed and spoke More than 140,000 people have signed
:54:56. > :54:59.a petition started by ad Devon man, calling for changes to the way
:55:00. > :55:06.mortgages are approved. Jamie Pogson wants mortgage lenders
:55:07. > :55:09.to make payment of rent count as proof of an individual can
:55:10. > :55:11.meet mortgage repayments. If the law does change,
:55:12. > :55:14.a lot of people will be able I know people who pay their rent
:55:15. > :55:27.on time all the time, And there have been huge drops
:55:28. > :55:32.in the number of parents from Devon and Dorset being fined
:55:33. > :55:34.for taking their children out Some say there is too much
:55:35. > :55:38.confusion about the policy. Some of the confusion of the term
:55:39. > :55:41.time holiday rules appear to be Alison, there are strong feelings
:55:42. > :55:51.in places like the south-west that parents should be able to take
:55:52. > :55:53.children, particularly if they work Service personnel, there
:55:54. > :55:58.was a guy I met whose job The only time he could do
:55:59. > :56:02.it was in the school holidays. So he needs to take his
:56:03. > :56:04.children at other times. So you would like the Government
:56:05. > :56:16.to have their wrists slapped My starting place is that
:56:17. > :56:21.children should be in school There are of course will be some
:56:22. > :56:24.exceptional circumstances. I would leave it largely
:56:25. > :56:28.to head teachers to decide. Do you think somewhere
:56:29. > :56:30.like the south-west particularly, because of the predominance
:56:31. > :56:33.of things like the tourism industry, lots of your Conservative colleagues
:56:34. > :56:35.in Cornwall are unhappy with the Government's
:56:36. > :56:37.position on this? I think the Government will probably
:56:38. > :56:39.have to change its position. I'm not expecting the
:56:40. > :56:41.court case to go well. I think the Government will have
:56:42. > :56:44.to do a rethink on this issue. It's not beyond the wit of man
:56:45. > :56:48.to come up with a scheme that works. It's a bit of a postcode
:56:49. > :56:53.lottery, though, isn't it? The discretion of headteachers
:56:54. > :56:55.at the moment could make it very You've obviously got
:56:56. > :56:58.lots of different schools Free schools, academies,
:56:59. > :57:01.local authority schools, I'm going to have to halt
:57:02. > :57:05.this burgeoning debate Now the government plans for new
:57:06. > :57:20.grammar schools. The Education Secretary
:57:21. > :57:22.Justine Greening was speaking to a conference
:57:23. > :57:24.of headteachers on Friday. They're normally a pretty polite
:57:25. > :57:26.bunch, but they didn't Broadcasters weren't
:57:27. > :57:33.allowed into the speech, but this was captured
:57:34. > :57:37.on a camera phone. And we have to recognise actually
:57:38. > :57:40.for grammars, in terms of disadvantaged children,
:57:41. > :57:44.that they have, they really do help them close
:57:45. > :57:46.the attainment gap. And at the same time
:57:47. > :57:49.we should recognise that ..That parents also want choice
:57:50. > :57:56.for their children and that those schools are often
:57:57. > :58:10.very oversubscribed. I suppose it is a rite of passage
:58:11. > :58:15.for and education secretaries to have this at a head teachers
:58:16. > :58:19.conference book the head are usually more polite. Isn't part of the
:58:20. > :58:25.problem, whether one is for or against the expansion of grammar
:58:26. > :58:29.schools, the government plans are complicated, you cannot sum them up
:58:30. > :58:33.in a sentence. The proof of that is they can still get away with denying
:58:34. > :58:36.they are expanding grammar schools. They will find an alternative
:58:37. > :58:41.formulation because it is not as simple as a brute creation of what
:58:42. > :58:46.we used to know is grammar schools with the absolute cut-off of the 11
:58:47. > :58:50.plus. I am surprised how easy they found it politically. We saw the
:58:51. > :58:55.clip of Justine Greening being jeered a little bit but in the grand
:58:56. > :58:58.scheme, compared to another government trying this idea a decade
:58:59. > :59:03.ago they have got away with it easily and I think what is happening
:59:04. > :59:07.is a perverse consequence of Brexit and the media attention on Brexit,
:59:08. > :59:12.the government of the day can just about get away with slightly more
:59:13. > :59:16.contentious domestic policies on the correct assumption we will be too
:59:17. > :59:20.busy investing our attention in Article 50 and two years of
:59:21. > :59:26.negotiations, WTO terms at everything we have been discussing.
:59:27. > :59:28.I wonder if after grammar schools there will be examples of
:59:29. > :59:34.contentious domestic policies Theresa May can slide in stock
:59:35. > :59:41.because Brexit sucks the life out, takes the attention away. You are a
:59:42. > :59:48.supporter. Broadly. Are you happy with the government approach? They
:59:49. > :59:52.need to have more gumption and stop being apologetic. It is a bazaar
:59:53. > :59:58.area of public policy where we judge the policy on grammar schools based
:59:59. > :00:01.on what it does for children whose parents are unemployed, living on
:00:02. > :00:07.sink estates in Liverpool. It is absurd, we don't judge any other
:00:08. > :00:10.policy like that. It is simple, not contentious, people who are not
:00:11. > :00:15.sure, ask them if they would apply to send their child there, six out
:00:16. > :00:20.of ten said they would. Parents want good schools for their children, we
:00:21. > :00:24.should have appropriate education and they should be straightforward,
:00:25. > :00:27.this is about the future of the economy and we need bright children
:00:28. > :00:33.to get education at the highest level, education for academically
:00:34. > :00:37.bright children. It is supposed to be a signature policy of the Theresa
:00:38. > :00:41.May administration that marks a government different from David
:00:42. > :00:43.Cameron's government who did not go down this road. The signature is
:00:44. > :00:52.pretty blurred, it is hard to read. It is. She is trying to address
:00:53. > :00:56.concerns about those who fail to get into these selective schools and
:00:57. > :01:00.tried to targeted in poorer areas and the rest of it. She will
:01:01. > :01:03.probably come across so many obstacles. It is not clear what form
:01:04. > :01:07.it will take in the end. It is really an example of a signature
:01:08. > :01:10.policy not fully thought through. I think it was one of her first
:01:11. > :01:15.announcements. It was. It surprised everybody. Surprised at the speed
:01:16. > :01:19.and pace at which they were planning to go. Ever since, there have been
:01:20. > :01:25.qualifications and hesitations en route with good cause, in my view. I
:01:26. > :01:29.disagree with Juliet that this is... We all want good schools but if you
:01:30. > :01:33.don't get in there and you end up in a less good school. They already do
:01:34. > :01:37.that. We have selection based on the income of parents getting into a
:01:38. > :01:42.good catchment area, based on the faith of the parents. That becomes
:01:43. > :01:45.very attainable! I might been too shot run christenings for these. --
:01:46. > :01:47.I have been. Now, you may remember this time last
:01:48. > :01:49.week we were talking about the extraordinary claims by US
:01:50. > :01:52.President Donald Trump, on Twitter of course,
:01:53. > :01:54.that Barack Obama had ordered And there was me thinking
:01:55. > :01:57.that wiretaps went out Is it legal for a sitting
:01:58. > :02:02.President to do so, he asked, concluding it was a "new low",
:02:03. > :02:11.and later comparing it to Watergate. Since then, the White House has been
:02:12. > :02:15.pressed to provide evidence for this It hasn't, but it seems it may have
:02:16. > :02:21.initially come from a report on a US website by the former Conservative
:02:22. > :02:23.MP Louise Mensch. She wrote that the FBI had been
:02:24. > :02:26.granted a warrant to intercept communications between Trump's
:02:27. > :02:34.campaign and Russia. Well, Louise Mensch joins
:02:35. > :02:46.us now from New York. Louise, you claimed in early
:02:47. > :02:49.November that the FBI had secured a court warrants to monitor
:02:50. > :02:55.communications between trump Tower in New York at two Russian banks.
:02:56. > :02:57.It's now four months later. Isn't it the case that nobody has proved the
:02:58. > :03:06.existence of this warrant? First of all, forgive me Andrew, one
:03:07. > :03:10.takes 1's life in one's hand when it is you but I have to correct your
:03:11. > :03:14.characterisation of my reporting. It is very important. I did not report
:03:15. > :03:19.that the FBI had a warrant to intercept anything or that Trump
:03:20. > :03:23.tower was any part of it. What I reported was that the FBI obtained a
:03:24. > :03:27.warrant is targeted on all communications between two Russian
:03:28. > :03:34.banks and were, therefore, allowed to examine US persons in the context
:03:35. > :03:37.of their investigation. What the Americans call legally incidental
:03:38. > :03:43.collection. I certainly didn't report that the warrant was able to
:03:44. > :03:48.intercept or that it had location basis, for example Trump tower. I
:03:49. > :03:52.just didn't report that. The reason that matters so much is that I now
:03:53. > :03:57.believe based on the President's reaction, there may well be a
:03:58. > :04:01.wiretap act Trump Tower. If so, Donald Trump has just tweeted out
:04:02. > :04:05.evidence in an ongoing criminal case that neither I nor anybody else
:04:06. > :04:08.reported. He is right about Watergate because he will have
:04:09. > :04:13.committed obstruction of justice directly from his Twitter account.
:04:14. > :04:19.Let me come back as thank you for clarifying. Let me come back to the
:04:20. > :04:23.question. -- and thank you. We have not yet got proof that this warrant
:04:24. > :04:27.exists, do we? No and we are most unlikely to get it because it would
:04:28. > :04:32.be a heinous crime for Donald Trump to reveal its existence. In America
:04:33. > :04:36.they call it a Glomar response. I can neither confirm nor deny. That
:04:37. > :04:40.is what all American officials will have to say legally. If you are
:04:41. > :04:43.looking for proof, you won't get it until and unless a court cases
:04:44. > :04:49.brought. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The BBC validated
:04:50. > :04:54.this two months after me in their reporting by the journalist Paul
:04:55. > :04:57.Wood. The Guardian, they also separately from their own sources
:04:58. > :05:01.validated the existence of the warrant. If you are in America, you
:05:02. > :05:05.would know that CNN and others are reporting that the investigation in
:05:06. > :05:09.ongoing. Let me come onto the wider point. You believe the Trump
:05:10. > :05:12.campaign including the president were complicit with the Russians
:05:13. > :05:16.during the 2016 election campaign to such an extent that Mr Trump should
:05:17. > :05:22.be impeached. What evidence did you have?
:05:23. > :05:28.That is an enormous amount of evidence. You could start with him
:05:29. > :05:30.saying, hey, Russia, if you are listening, please release all the
:05:31. > :05:35.Hillary Clinton's e-mails. That's not evidence. I think it rather is,
:05:36. > :05:39.actually. Especially if you look at some of the evidence that exists on
:05:40. > :05:43.Twitter and elsewhere of people talking directly to his social media
:05:44. > :05:48.manager, Dan should be no and telling him to do that before it
:05:49. > :05:52.happened. There is a bit out there. The BBC itself reported that in
:05:53. > :05:56.April of last year, a six agency task force, not just the FBI, but
:05:57. > :06:00.the Treasury Department, was looking at this. I believe there is an
:06:01. > :06:03.enormous amount of evidence. And then there is the steel dossier
:06:04. > :06:11.which was included in an official report of the US intelligence
:06:12. > :06:14.committee. You've also ... Just to be clear, we don't have hard
:06:15. > :06:19.evidence yet whether this warrant exists. It may or may not. There is
:06:20. > :06:22.doubt about... There are claims about whether there is evidence
:06:23. > :06:27.about Mr Trump and the Russians. That is another matter. You claimed
:06:28. > :06:34.that President Putin had Andrew Breitbart murdered to pave the way
:06:35. > :06:38.for Steve Bannon to play a key role in the Trump administration. I
:06:39. > :06:43.haven't. You said that Steve Bannon is behind bomb threats to Jewish
:06:44. > :06:47.community centres. Aren't you in danger of just peddling wild
:06:48. > :06:51.conspiracy theories? No. Festival, I haven't. No matter how many times
:06:52. > :06:56.people say this, it's not going to be true -- first of all. I said in
:06:57. > :06:59.twitter I believe that to be the case about the murder of Andrew
:07:00. > :07:06.Breitbart. You believe President Putin murdered him. I didn't! You
:07:07. > :07:10.said I reported it, but I believed it. You put it on twitter that you
:07:11. > :07:16.believed it but you don't have a shred of evidence. I do. Indeed, I
:07:17. > :07:19.know made assertions. What is the evidence that Mr Putin murdered
:07:20. > :07:25.Andrew Breitbart? I said I believe it. You may believe there are
:07:26. > :07:29.fairies at the bottom of your garden, it doesn't make it true. I
:07:30. > :07:38.may indeed. And if I say so, that's my belief. If I say I am reporting,
:07:39. > :07:45.as I did with the Fisa warrant exists, I have a basis in fact. They
:07:46. > :07:50.believe is just a belief. I know you are relatively new to journalism.
:07:51. > :07:54.Let me get the rules right. Andrew, jealousy is not your colour... If it
:07:55. > :07:58.is twitter, we don't believe it but if it is on your website, we should
:07:59. > :08:04.believe it? If I report something and I say this happened, then I am
:08:05. > :08:08.making an assertion. If I describe a belief, I am describing a belief.
:08:09. > :08:13.Subtlety may be a little difficult for you... No, no. If you want to be
:08:14. > :08:20.a journalist, beliefs have to be backed up with evidence. Really? Do
:08:21. > :08:23.you have a faith? It's not a matter of faith, maybe in your case, that
:08:24. > :08:29.President Putin murdered Andrew Breitbart. A belief and a report at
:08:30. > :08:33.two different things and no matter how often you say that they are the
:08:34. > :08:37.same, they will never be the same. You've said in today's Sunday Times
:08:38. > :08:47.here in London that you've turned into" a temporary superpower" where
:08:48. > :08:50.you "See things really clearly". Have you become delusional? No. I am
:08:51. > :08:57.describing a biological basis for ADHD, which I have. As any of your
:08:58. > :09:00.viewers who are doctors will know. It provides people with
:09:01. > :09:03.unfortunately a lot of scattered focus, they are very messy and
:09:04. > :09:07.absent-minded but when they are interested in things and they have
:09:08. > :09:11.ADHD they can have a condition which is hyper focus. You concentrate very
:09:12. > :09:17.hard on a given subject and you can see patterns and connections. That
:09:18. > :09:22.is biological. Thank you for explaining that. And for getting up
:09:23. > :09:26.early in New York. The first time ever I have interviewed a temporary
:09:27. > :09:30.superpower. Thank you. You are so lucky! You are so lucky! I don't
:09:31. > :09:34.think it's going to happen again. Please don't ask us to comment on
:09:35. > :09:39.that interview! I will not ask you, viewers will make up their own
:09:40. > :09:40.minds. Let's come back to be more mundane world of Article 50. Stop
:09:41. > :09:48.the killing! Will it get through at the
:09:49. > :09:51.government wanted it? Without the Lords amendment falling by the way
:09:52. > :09:56.that? I am sure the Lord will not try to ping-pong this back and
:09:57. > :10:00.forth. So we are at the end of this particular legislative phase. The
:10:01. > :10:03.fact that all three Brexit Cabinet ministers, number ten often don't
:10:04. > :10:06.like one of them going out on a broadcast interview on a Sunday,
:10:07. > :10:09.they've all been out and about. That suggests to me they are working on
:10:10. > :10:15.the assumption it will be triggered this week. This week. The
:10:16. > :10:19.negotiations will begin or at least the process begins. The negotiation
:10:20. > :10:23.process may be difficult, given all of the European elections. The Dutch
:10:24. > :10:28.this week. And then the French and maybe the Italians and certainly the
:10:29. > :10:32.Germans by the end of September, which is less predictable than it
:10:33. > :10:37.was. Given all that, what did you make of Anna Soubry's claim, Viacom
:10:38. > :10:41.on her part, that we may just end up crashing out in six months question
:10:42. > :10:47.-- fear on her part. It was not just that that we made that deliberately
:10:48. > :10:50.organising. I want us to get on with the deals.
:10:51. > :10:57.Everyone knows a good deal is the best option. Who knows what is going
:10:58. > :11:00.to be on the table when we finally go out? Fascinatingly, the demand
:11:01. > :11:06.for some money back, given the amount of money... Net gains and net
:11:07. > :11:13.costs in terms of us leaving for the EU. It is all to play for. That will
:11:14. > :11:17.be a possible early grounds for a confrontation between the UK and the
:11:18. > :11:22.EU. My understanding is that they expect to do a deal on reciprocal
:11:23. > :11:26.rights of EU nationals, EU nationals here, UK citizens there, quite
:11:27. > :11:30.quickly. They want to clear that up and that will be done. Then they
:11:31. > :11:33.will hit this problem that the EU will be saying you've got to agree
:11:34. > :11:38.the divorce Bill first before we talk about the free trade bill.
:11:39. > :11:42.David Davis saying quite clearly, no, they go together because of the
:11:43. > :11:47.size of the bill. It will be determined, in our part, by how good
:11:48. > :11:51.the access will be. The mutual recognition of EU residents' rights
:11:52. > :11:55.is no trouble. A huge amount of fuss is attracted to that subject but it
:11:56. > :11:59.is the easiest thing to deal with, as is free movement for tourists.
:12:00. > :12:02.Money is what will make it incredibly acrimonious. Incredibly
:12:03. > :12:06.quickly. I imagine the dominant story in the summer will be all
:12:07. > :12:09.about that. This was Anna Soubry's implication, members of the
:12:10. > :12:12.governors could strongly argue, things are so poisonous and so
:12:13. > :12:16.unpleasant at the moment, the dealers are advancing -- members of
:12:17. > :12:22.the government. Why not call it a day and go out on WTO terms while
:12:23. > :12:25.public opinion is still in that direction in that Eurosceptic
:12:26. > :12:29.direction? No buyers' remorse about last year's referendum. The longer
:12:30. > :12:33.they leave it, view more opportunity there is for some kind of public
:12:34. > :12:37.resistance and change of mind to take place. The longer believe it,
:12:38. > :12:41.the more people who voted for Brexit and people who voted Remain and
:12:42. > :12:45.think we didn't get world War three will start being quite angry with
:12:46. > :12:49.the EU for not agreeing a deal. In terms of the rights of EU nationals
:12:50. > :12:54.he and Brits abroad, by all accounts, 26 of the 27 have agreed
:12:55. > :12:57.individually. Angela Merkel is the only person who has held that up.
:12:58. > :13:03.That will be dealt with in a matter of days. The chances of a deal being
:13:04. > :13:08.done is likely but in ten seconds... It would not be a bad bet to protect
:13:09. > :13:12.your on something not happening, you might get pretty good odds? The odds
:13:13. > :13:17.are going up that a deal doesn't happen. But, as I said earlier, the
:13:18. > :13:22.House of Commons will not endorse no deal. We are either in an early
:13:23. > :13:27.election or she has to go back again. Either way, you will need us!
:13:28. > :13:30.We will be back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two ahead of what looks like
:13:31. > :13:32.being a big week in politics. We will be back here same time, same
:13:33. > :13:35.place. Remember, if it's Sunday,
:13:36. > :13:39.it's the Sunday Politics.