:00:43. > :00:46.It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:47. > :00:49.The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,
:00:50. > :00:51.but do the security services have the resources and
:00:52. > :00:54.We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.
:00:55. > :00:58.As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of
:00:59. > :01:04.Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power
:01:05. > :01:07.Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job
:01:08. > :01:12.In the South West: and the party's
:01:13. > :01:15.A senior Tory claims we needa special tax to pay for the NHS.
:01:16. > :01:18.And should the Government bring in tighter controls
:01:19. > :01:32.And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political
:01:33. > :01:35.panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee
:01:36. > :01:41.and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:42. > :01:43.First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack
:01:44. > :01:47.The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament,
:01:48. > :01:49.but not before he'd murdered four people and injured 50 -
:01:50. > :01:53.one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital.
:01:54. > :01:55.His target was the very heart of our democracy,
:01:56. > :01:58.the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres
:01:59. > :02:01.of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers.
:02:02. > :02:05.Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's
:02:06. > :02:06.close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity
:02:07. > :02:15.at the time, the outcome could have been even worse.
:02:16. > :02:23.Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we
:02:24. > :02:27.be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary
:02:28. > :02:30.response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as
:02:31. > :02:35.prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive
:02:36. > :02:37.way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and
:02:38. > :02:42.national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to
:02:43. > :02:46.whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put
:02:47. > :02:52.more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor
:02:53. > :02:55.sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder
:02:56. > :03:00.whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around
:03:01. > :03:05.the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack,
:03:06. > :03:09.as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on
:03:10. > :03:12.social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the
:03:13. > :03:19.attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to
:03:20. > :03:21.the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions.
:03:22. > :03:27.Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while
:03:28. > :03:31.an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the
:03:32. > :03:34.weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the
:03:35. > :03:40.world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it
:03:41. > :03:45.stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for
:03:46. > :03:48.years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the
:03:49. > :03:54.chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal,
:03:55. > :03:58.so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of
:03:59. > :04:03.London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that
:04:04. > :04:09.the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this
:04:10. > :04:15.is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think
:04:16. > :04:19.from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a
:04:20. > :04:24.poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to
:04:25. > :04:27.imagine the emergency services and local people, international
:04:28. > :04:34.visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our
:04:35. > :04:38.Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards
:04:39. > :04:42.shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice.
:04:43. > :04:46.It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values
:04:47. > :04:49.that is attacking. OK, thank you for that.
:04:50. > :04:51.So, four days after the attack, what more do we know
:04:52. > :04:55.The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains
:04:56. > :05:00.Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation.
:05:01. > :05:05.According to a police timeline, that's how long it took
:05:06. > :05:07.Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster
:05:08. > :05:14.to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter...
:05:15. > :05:17.to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard
:05:18. > :05:28.The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster.
:05:29. > :05:33.The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying:
:05:34. > :05:36."We would like to express our gratitude to the people
:05:37. > :05:38.who were with Keith in his last moments and who were
:05:39. > :05:41.There was nothing more you could have done,
:05:42. > :05:44.you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone."
:05:45. > :05:48.Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him.
:05:49. > :05:51.Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp
:05:52. > :05:58.The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging
:05:59. > :06:03.There should be no place for terrorists to hide.
:06:04. > :06:06.We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp,
:06:07. > :06:09.and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret
:06:10. > :06:12.place for terrorists to communicate with each other.
:06:13. > :06:16.It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just
:06:17. > :06:25.listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing,
:06:26. > :06:27.legally, through warrantry, but in this situation
:06:28. > :06:29.we need to make sure that our intelligence services
:06:30. > :06:31.have the ability to get into situations like encrypted
:06:32. > :06:34.She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions
:06:35. > :06:37.at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out
:06:38. > :06:41.But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be
:06:42. > :06:49...not the policy implications that will echo the loudest.
:06:50. > :06:51.We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol,
:06:52. > :06:57.the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright.
:06:58. > :07:05.What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I
:07:06. > :07:08.can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation,
:07:09. > :07:12.because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but
:07:13. > :07:16.to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80
:07:17. > :07:20.counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year,
:07:21. > :07:24.using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the
:07:25. > :07:28.very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also
:07:29. > :07:31.tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring
:07:32. > :07:40.this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made
:07:41. > :07:42.available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do
:07:43. > :07:47.we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired
:07:48. > :07:50.or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being
:07:51. > :07:54.led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate
:07:55. > :08:00.on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the
:08:01. > :08:04.attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in
:08:05. > :08:07.Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin
:08:08. > :08:13.Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last
:08:14. > :08:18.year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved
:08:19. > :08:24.have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of
:08:25. > :08:28.them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians
:08:29. > :08:32.in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a
:08:33. > :08:35.gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of
:08:36. > :08:38.attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at
:08:39. > :08:43.least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well.
:08:44. > :08:47.Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those
:08:48. > :08:51.involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is
:08:52. > :08:56.going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we?
:08:57. > :09:01.Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least
:09:02. > :09:06.the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the
:09:07. > :09:11.only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see
:09:12. > :09:16.in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for
:09:17. > :09:21.example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the
:09:22. > :09:24.security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels,
:09:25. > :09:30.Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that
:09:31. > :09:35.could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at
:09:36. > :09:39.least the first indications from what police are saying in London,
:09:40. > :09:44.these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of
:09:45. > :09:48.the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised
:09:49. > :09:53.community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a
:09:54. > :09:57.dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised
:09:58. > :10:01.individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult
:10:02. > :10:05.when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that
:10:06. > :10:10.they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the
:10:11. > :10:13.work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices
:10:14. > :10:18.that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home
:10:19. > :10:23.Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps
:10:24. > :10:27.like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they
:10:28. > :10:30.encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services
:10:31. > :10:36.to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for
:10:37. > :10:41.that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years
:10:42. > :10:45.there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are
:10:46. > :10:49.becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more
:10:50. > :10:52.and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators,
:10:53. > :10:56.and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the
:10:57. > :11:00.ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not
:11:01. > :11:05.when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board,
:11:06. > :11:09.for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have
:11:10. > :11:12.to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of
:11:13. > :11:15.these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a
:11:16. > :11:22.more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is
:11:23. > :11:28.certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying
:11:29. > :11:35.to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree
:11:36. > :11:39.certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative
:11:40. > :11:43.solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide
:11:44. > :11:48.but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done
:11:49. > :11:50.to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of
:11:51. > :11:55.communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our
:11:56. > :11:57.lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much.
:11:58. > :12:01.Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House
:12:02. > :12:08.What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of
:12:09. > :12:11.Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very
:12:12. > :12:19.courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to
:12:20. > :12:25.be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident
:12:26. > :12:28.of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but
:12:29. > :12:34.also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already
:12:35. > :12:40.under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and
:12:41. > :12:49.security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get
:12:50. > :12:52.reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary
:12:53. > :12:55.security director, and just as security matters in parliament are
:12:56. > :12:59.kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as
:13:00. > :13:03.a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the
:13:04. > :13:08.issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling
:13:09. > :13:11.events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their
:13:12. > :13:17.lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is
:13:18. > :13:20.it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate,
:13:21. > :13:26.where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening
:13:27. > :13:31.for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led
:13:32. > :13:38.to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last
:13:39. > :13:41.couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have
:13:42. > :13:46.actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would
:13:47. > :13:50.expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security
:13:51. > :13:55.matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at
:13:56. > :14:01.all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the
:14:02. > :14:05.security authorities and in particular for the police and direct
:14:06. > :14:11.command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it
:14:12. > :14:16.because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers
:14:17. > :14:20.this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no
:14:21. > :14:23.position to comment on the details of the operation but my
:14:24. > :14:28.understanding is that the number of people available is what the police
:14:29. > :14:32.and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and
:14:33. > :14:38.that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it
:14:39. > :14:44.not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left
:14:45. > :14:48.unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so
:14:49. > :14:55.that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able
:14:56. > :15:00.to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that
:15:01. > :15:05.case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't
:15:06. > :15:07.yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody
:15:08. > :15:13.involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who
:15:14. > :15:19.was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time.
:15:20. > :15:22.We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were
:15:23. > :15:28.concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the
:15:29. > :15:33.attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with
:15:34. > :15:37.a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it
:15:38. > :15:42.is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be
:15:43. > :15:46.pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it.
:15:47. > :15:50.To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the
:15:51. > :15:54.witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what
:15:55. > :15:58.happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any
:15:59. > :16:02.changes need to be made in light of that.
:16:03. > :16:10.We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence
:16:11. > :16:15.Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced
:16:16. > :16:20.the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details
:16:21. > :16:23.but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have
:16:24. > :16:29.been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has
:16:30. > :16:34.been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a
:16:35. > :16:39.so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the
:16:40. > :16:48.Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this
:16:49. > :16:53.simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that
:16:54. > :17:01.is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader
:17:02. > :17:07.of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals
:17:08. > :17:12.who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by
:17:13. > :17:17.the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in
:17:18. > :17:22.public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been
:17:23. > :17:25.reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it
:17:26. > :17:32.raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions
:17:33. > :17:39.should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are
:17:40. > :17:43.kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both
:17:44. > :17:48.in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the
:17:49. > :17:53.palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the
:17:54. > :17:59.perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was
:18:00. > :18:04.a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at
:18:05. > :18:16.carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed
:18:17. > :18:21.guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to
:18:22. > :18:25.look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing.
:18:26. > :18:29.There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't
:18:30. > :18:33.know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will
:18:34. > :18:39.find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If
:18:40. > :18:43.you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to
:18:44. > :18:48.be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed
:18:49. > :18:53.accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about
:18:54. > :18:57.lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is
:18:58. > :19:01.important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview
:19:02. > :19:06.of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered
:19:07. > :19:11.view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will
:19:12. > :19:15.be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins
:19:16. > :19:21.our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on
:19:22. > :19:24.Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper
:19:25. > :19:30.that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's
:19:31. > :19:37.not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts
:19:38. > :19:41.of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the
:19:42. > :19:47.commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime
:19:48. > :19:53.Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has
:19:54. > :19:57.been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It
:19:58. > :20:05.doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational
:20:06. > :20:08.mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an
:20:09. > :20:15.agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies
:20:16. > :20:18.that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police
:20:19. > :20:23.cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all
:20:24. > :20:28.countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it
:20:29. > :20:35.will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that?
:20:36. > :20:39.Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context
:20:40. > :20:44.of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the
:20:45. > :20:49.departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply
:20:50. > :20:54.not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a
:20:55. > :20:57.discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we
:20:58. > :21:02.all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we
:21:03. > :21:04.will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is
:21:05. > :21:21.possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The
:21:22. > :21:23.question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the
:21:24. > :21:26.subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel?
:21:27. > :21:32.Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have
:21:33. > :21:36.to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate
:21:37. > :21:41.the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once
:21:42. > :21:47.David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the
:21:48. > :21:51.national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady
:21:52. > :21:56.progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good
:21:57. > :22:04.piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a
:22:05. > :22:08.substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out
:22:09. > :22:14.some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU
:22:15. > :22:20.programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50
:22:21. > :22:26.billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So
:22:27. > :22:32.50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get
:22:33. > :22:36.into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting
:22:37. > :22:44.very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum
:22:45. > :22:49.there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of
:22:50. > :22:52.separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find
:22:53. > :23:03.out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The
:23:04. > :23:09.Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which
:23:10. > :23:13.is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision
:23:14. > :23:17.of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in
:23:18. > :23:22.a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity
:23:23. > :23:25.and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the
:23:26. > :23:31.Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on
:23:32. > :23:36.Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will
:23:37. > :23:41.see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine
:23:42. > :23:46.thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII
:23:47. > :23:52.powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to
:23:53. > :23:59.avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities
:24:00. > :24:03.Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory
:24:04. > :24:10.footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those
:24:11. > :24:17.EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another
:24:18. > :24:22.regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to
:24:23. > :24:33.have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European
:24:34. > :24:38.regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come
:24:39. > :24:43.in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those
:24:44. > :24:46.powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the
:24:47. > :24:51.parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And
:24:52. > :24:57.if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the
:24:58. > :25:00.Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary
:25:01. > :25:05.legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the
:25:06. > :25:10.constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill
:25:11. > :25:14.and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House
:25:15. > :25:20.of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those
:25:21. > :25:25.powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision.
:25:26. > :25:27.David Lidington, thank you for being with us.
:25:28. > :25:29.So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell.
:25:30. > :25:31.He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party
:25:32. > :25:33.almost three years ago, but yesterday announced
:25:34. > :25:35.that he was quitting to sit as an independent.
:25:36. > :25:37.His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying,
:25:38. > :25:40."Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster".
:25:41. > :25:44.But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell
:25:45. > :25:46.criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as
:25:47. > :25:51.Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage
:25:52. > :25:54.was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell
:25:55. > :26:00.opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign.
:26:01. > :26:02.Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage
:26:03. > :26:04.accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances
:26:05. > :26:06.of being awarded a knighthood, writing that,
:26:07. > :26:14.Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday,
:26:15. > :26:16.Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU.
:26:17. > :26:19.Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have
:26:20. > :26:22.decided that I will be leaving Ukip."
:26:23. > :26:24.When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014
:26:25. > :26:27.he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election.
:26:28. > :26:30."I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring
:26:31. > :26:38.This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election.
:26:39. > :26:45.We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall.
:26:46. > :26:54.Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your
:26:55. > :27:00.only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at
:27:01. > :27:06.a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not
:27:07. > :27:10.surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the
:27:11. > :27:13.past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage
:27:14. > :27:18.certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime
:27:19. > :27:21.which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had
:27:22. > :27:26.done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering
:27:27. > :27:33.over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a
:27:34. > :27:36.more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he
:27:37. > :27:39.expected to be pushed out your national executive committee
:27:40. > :27:42.tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to
:27:43. > :27:47.answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the
:27:48. > :27:54.last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue
:27:55. > :27:58.surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came
:27:59. > :28:03.out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to
:28:04. > :28:11.answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did
:28:12. > :28:15.jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out
:28:16. > :28:23.of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear
:28:24. > :28:28.is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the
:28:29. > :28:33.party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks,
:28:34. > :28:38.you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a
:28:39. > :28:46.pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party,
:28:47. > :29:01.doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to
:29:02. > :29:06.rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over
:29:07. > :29:09.the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will
:29:10. > :29:13.rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have
:29:14. > :29:19.a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post
:29:20. > :29:23.Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he
:29:24. > :29:27.said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the
:29:28. > :29:33.skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't
:29:34. > :29:39.it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November
:29:40. > :29:42.the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the
:29:43. > :29:46.party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem
:29:47. > :29:52.money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look
:29:53. > :29:56.forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit
:29:57. > :30:03.test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have
:30:04. > :30:06.been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you
:30:07. > :30:12.will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No,
:30:13. > :30:17.not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past,
:30:18. > :30:22.he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that
:30:23. > :30:26.but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for
:30:27. > :30:36.the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be
:30:37. > :30:41.interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster
:30:42. > :30:45.attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's
:30:46. > :30:51.extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like
:30:52. > :30:55.Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I
:30:56. > :30:59.personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I
:31:00. > :31:04.will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem
:31:05. > :31:09.within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the
:31:10. > :31:12.way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr
:31:13. > :31:29.Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the
:31:30. > :31:30.problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate
:31:31. > :31:33.communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would
:31:34. > :31:36.extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in
:31:37. > :31:39.Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But,
:31:40. > :31:42.as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme
:31:43. > :31:46.vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question
:31:47. > :31:50.too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get
:31:51. > :31:54.you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in
:31:55. > :31:58.Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has
:31:59. > :32:05.left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to
:32:06. > :32:07.go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people
:32:08. > :32:10.in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should
:32:11. > :32:17.have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon.
:32:18. > :32:24.Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio.
:32:25. > :32:30.Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are
:32:31. > :32:34.becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted
:32:35. > :32:38.myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to
:32:39. > :32:42.trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons
:32:43. > :32:46.resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the
:32:47. > :32:51.democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran
:32:52. > :32:56.parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here,
:32:57. > :33:00.I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage
:33:01. > :33:08.has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants
:33:09. > :33:13.to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going
:33:14. > :33:17.to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his
:33:18. > :33:21.constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr
:33:22. > :33:27.Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from
:33:28. > :33:30.Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the
:33:31. > :33:36.opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not
:33:37. > :33:40.always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an
:33:41. > :33:45.e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back,
:33:46. > :33:52.overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you
:33:53. > :33:58.are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won,
:33:59. > :34:02.Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June
:34:03. > :34:06.the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be
:34:07. > :34:11.absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is
:34:12. > :34:14.right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the
:34:15. > :34:18.European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one
:34:19. > :34:23.another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline
:34:24. > :34:28.the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I
:34:29. > :34:33.have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge.
:34:34. > :34:37.You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made
:34:38. > :34:41.the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made
:34:42. > :34:45.it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote
:34:46. > :34:49.Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would
:34:50. > :34:54.win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of
:34:55. > :35:02.that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas
:35:03. > :35:05.I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history
:35:06. > :35:09.proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk
:35:10. > :35:13.often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part
:35:14. > :35:17.of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic
:35:18. > :35:22.policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to
:35:23. > :35:25.sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave
:35:26. > :35:32.certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They
:35:33. > :35:38.freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel
:35:39. > :35:42.still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for
:35:43. > :35:45.Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and
:35:46. > :35:51.we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like
:35:52. > :35:55.Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is
:35:56. > :35:58.to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why
:35:59. > :36:02.can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but
:36:03. > :36:07.you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this
:36:08. > :36:10.than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten
:36:11. > :36:15.years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in
:36:16. > :36:19.2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in
:36:20. > :36:23.2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left
:36:24. > :36:27.us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically
:36:28. > :36:32.gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her
:36:33. > :36:36.record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam,
:36:37. > :36:40.nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of
:36:41. > :36:44.thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the
:36:45. > :36:47.size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of
:36:48. > :36:51.thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The
:36:52. > :36:56.problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the
:36:57. > :37:00.argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted
:37:01. > :37:04.her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until
:37:05. > :37:08.she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen,
:37:09. > :37:12.just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past.
:37:13. > :37:16.Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee
:37:17. > :37:20.into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what
:37:21. > :37:29.people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself
:37:30. > :37:32.with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip
:37:33. > :37:37.to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will
:37:38. > :37:41.come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit
:37:42. > :37:44.Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill
:37:45. > :37:50.and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas
:37:51. > :37:55.Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in
:37:56. > :38:01.the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were
:38:02. > :38:04.Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a
:38:05. > :38:10.Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a
:38:11. > :38:13.Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a
:38:14. > :38:16.party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree
:38:17. > :38:25.with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into
:38:26. > :38:29.2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote
:38:30. > :38:33.Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you
:38:34. > :38:37.fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and
:38:38. > :38:54.see. Very well! Thank you both very much.
:38:55. > :38:56.Hello, I'm Martyn Oates, coming up on the Sunday Politics
:38:57. > :39:02.Is it time for a special tax to pay for the NHS?
:39:03. > :39:07.I think there's much more support for these kinds of taxes if people
:39:08. > :39:14.So I do actually think a hypothecated tax is a good idea.
:39:15. > :39:17.And for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by the Exeter MP
:39:18. > :39:20.Ben Bradshaw and by Neil Parish, the MP for Tiverton and Honiton.
:39:21. > :39:25.Last week's terrorist attack on Westminster has left many people
:39:26. > :39:28.wondering what more can be done to improve security.
:39:29. > :39:32.Did Khalid Masood's actions make you think British police officers
:39:33. > :39:38.I think we were all there on Wednesday.
:39:39. > :39:41.Some thoughts on lessons to be learned?
:39:42. > :39:43.I mean, Ben, you think there's an argument for more
:39:44. > :39:49.I think we pride ourselves on having a police force that's
:39:50. > :39:53.But there'll be people who know a lot more
:39:54. > :39:59.and I'm sure they will be reviewing the Commons security as we speak,
:40:00. > :40:02.whether more can be done to make that very vulnerable entrance point
:40:03. > :40:05.a little more robust, and the question as to
:40:06. > :40:11.whether you should leave police officers out there unarmed,
:40:12. > :40:13.but I don't really feel qualified to say that.
:40:14. > :40:16.But it's not in the British tradition, is it, for all of our
:40:17. > :40:19.police officers - particularly those who spend time having themselves
:40:20. > :40:21.photographed with tourists - to have great machine guns.
:40:22. > :40:26.There was an interesting debate the day afterwards,
:40:27. > :40:29.with the Prime Minister and others, arguing that, in a technical
:40:30. > :40:34.sense, the assailant didn't actually breach the Parliamentary security.
:40:35. > :40:37.But, obviously, if you look at the footage, and you were there,
:40:38. > :40:41.clearly, that body was a long way into the Parliamentary estate?
:40:42. > :40:46.First of all, I very much agree with Ben,
:40:47. > :40:49.that we shouldn't arm all of our police, because I think
:40:50. > :40:51.it's lovely they can stay there and talk with tourists
:40:52. > :40:56.But we've also got to protect those police.
:40:57. > :41:01.Normally, there is a policeman with a machine gun just back
:41:02. > :41:11.Now, how the assailant got in quite as far as he did, I don't know.
:41:12. > :41:14.I suspect the division bell went, at the gates opened, and,
:41:15. > :41:18.of course, all the ministers are coming back in to vote.
:41:19. > :41:21.And I suspect it was just by chance that he had that
:41:22. > :41:27.That's why, I suspect, we may have to look at not perhaps
:41:28. > :41:30.doing quite so much, we can do more at the outer gates,
:41:31. > :41:33.and then perhaps make sure we have a system where you come
:41:34. > :41:36.into a locked gate system and into the second part.
:41:37. > :41:42.I think the main thing is that our heart goes out to the police,
:41:43. > :41:46.they lost one of their own, and he was a really, really great
:41:47. > :41:51.Ben comes in on bicycle, so do I into Parliament -
:41:52. > :41:53.I don't cycle around my constituency, because it's
:41:54. > :42:01.But we need to make sure we protect our police,
:42:02. > :42:05.but we have armed police there, ready to take down an assailant.
:42:06. > :42:08.But somehow or other, those police that are right
:42:09. > :42:12.out with the public, they're great ambassadors,
:42:13. > :42:17.but they've got to be protected more than they are at the moment.
:42:18. > :42:19.Would the NHS be better off if it was funded
:42:20. > :42:23.Sarah Wollaston, the chair of the Health Select Committee,
:42:24. > :42:26.thinks so and told this programme it was time to consider ring fencing
:42:27. > :42:30.National Insurance to pay for the apparently endlessly rising
:42:31. > :42:39.More patients than at any time in NHS history.
:42:40. > :42:43.Worried relatives, medical staff under pressure and a political row
:42:44. > :42:48.about whether NHS funding is keeping up with demand.
:42:49. > :42:52.I'm going to go and see what I can do to shift beds and create space.
:42:53. > :42:54.Fresh from one winter crunch point, the Government already appears
:42:55. > :43:01.Experience has shown that on-site GP triage in A departments can
:43:02. > :43:08.have a significant and positive impact on A waiting times.
:43:09. > :43:12.I'm therefore making a further ?100 million of capital available
:43:13. > :43:17.immediately for new triage projects at English hospitals
:43:18. > :43:23.Something similar already happens in Plymouth.
:43:24. > :43:26.There are a number of potential benefits.
:43:27. > :43:28.The main benefit would be that patients should see the right
:43:29. > :43:30.practitioner first time, and not have to go through
:43:31. > :43:34.a complicated series of seeing different people before they finally
:43:35. > :43:39.see the doctor or nurse that can best meet their needs.
:43:40. > :43:41.But there are already fears about whether there will be enough
:43:42. > :43:46.GPs to make this work across England by next winter.
:43:47. > :43:50.And one Conservative MP, who also happens to be chair
:43:51. > :43:54.of the Health Select Committee, says it's time the NHS was directly
:43:55. > :44:05.I think there's much more support for these kinds of taxes if people
:44:06. > :44:11.So I do think, actually, that a hypothecated tax is a good idea,
:44:12. > :44:14.and I would like to see National Insurance repurposed
:44:15. > :44:20.as a health and social care insurance, and for that
:44:21. > :44:25.That is a huge change when it comes to public finances.
:44:26. > :44:29.Interestingly, National Insurance raises more
:44:30. > :44:34.For others, though, the situation is less
:44:35. > :44:38.about the rules of tax-and-spend, but about being straight
:44:39. > :44:44.If we're being honest with people, if we're being honest
:44:45. > :44:49.with the public, an up to 2p increase in tax
:44:50. > :44:54.would be necessary in order to save the NHS.
:44:55. > :44:58.That isn't Lib Dem policy yet, but it is a measure of just how
:44:59. > :45:03.seriously some are taking the health of the NHS.
:45:04. > :45:06.Neil, have you got any sympathy with your Conservative colleague's
:45:07. > :45:09.view there that there should be some ring-fenced tax?
:45:10. > :45:11.She says that should be National Insurance.
:45:12. > :45:14.I think it's an interesting idea to ring fence a tax.
:45:15. > :45:17.Whether National Insurance is the right one, in the end
:45:18. > :45:19.I think it probably would have to be income tax.
:45:20. > :45:21.You think people might be persuaded...?
:45:22. > :45:23.I think they might be, because what has happened,
:45:24. > :45:26.and naturally it's bound to be a political football,
:45:27. > :45:30.health, by its very nature, we all need health care
:45:31. > :45:33.and the amount we spend on it is a political issue -
:45:34. > :45:36.but I think, because more money is pouring in,
:45:37. > :45:39.and success governments will have to pour more money in,
:45:40. > :45:42.perhaps it is actually time to look at this.
:45:43. > :45:46.But if you start, health has a tax, defence has a tax,
:45:47. > :45:54.What we do accept is that we will have to review how much
:45:55. > :46:00.we spend on the health service, because we're all getting older,
:46:01. > :46:10.That's the Lib Dem's contention, that you need to be honest.
:46:11. > :46:13.It's not an easy one to deal with, because people like the service.
:46:14. > :46:17.They don't necessarily want to pay the tax,
:46:18. > :46:22.But let's have this debate, because I think it's clear that
:46:23. > :46:27.all of us want the health service to succeed.
:46:28. > :46:30.And it's case of not only managing the health service,
:46:31. > :46:36.And we're putting more money in, but the cost of pensions
:46:37. > :46:38.and the cost of everything is going up.
:46:39. > :46:44.Ben, you look at the Labour party's website today,
:46:45. > :46:47.on the front page, save the NHS, save it from the Tories,
:46:48. > :46:51.But how are you going to do this, how would you provide this funding?
:46:52. > :46:55.It's great that Neil and Sarah and other Conservative MPs
:46:56. > :47:00.Not just for the NHS, but for social care.
:47:01. > :47:02.When we left office, we had NHS funding up
:47:03. > :47:06.It's now gone back down again, and we're seeing
:47:07. > :47:10.As Neil says, we have a growing, elderly population,
:47:11. > :47:14.We have to have a long-term, sustainable solution.
:47:15. > :47:17.I'm not sure that hypothecation is necessarily the answer,
:47:18. > :47:19.partly for the reasons Neil's already given,
:47:20. > :47:22.but if there was a recession, for example, does that
:47:23. > :47:24.mean the money's then going to go down for the NHS?
:47:25. > :47:27.But you do need to do something, and I think you need
:47:28. > :47:29.to look at everything, whether it's is combination
:47:30. > :47:32.of income, National Insurance tax, more sin taxes - like the sugar tax
:47:33. > :47:36.that the Health Committee recommended that has now been
:47:37. > :47:38.adopted by the Government, already been very successful
:47:39. > :47:43.Well, you can think of a number of things, can't you -
:47:44. > :47:45.fat, sugars, salt, things that are bad for you.
:47:46. > :47:48.I think the public would accept that perhaps more than income tax,
:47:49. > :47:53.And I don't think we should rule out the idea that we had
:47:54. > :47:56.when we were in Government for social care, of some kind
:47:57. > :48:07.Because if you invest in public health -
:48:08. > :48:10.which I think is the other mistake this Government's made,
:48:11. > :48:12.it's cut funding for public health - so, illness prevention,
:48:13. > :48:14.then you actually reduce long-term demand on the NHS.
:48:15. > :48:17.So our obesity report, which is coming out this weekend,
:48:18. > :48:19.which is very critical of the Government inaction,
:48:20. > :48:21.says that if you spend a bit more on tackling obesity,
:48:22. > :48:24.you save a lot more for the NHS in the long run.
:48:25. > :48:29.I don't want to get too aggressive with Ben, but don't forget,
:48:30. > :48:32.we did have a huge deficit, over ?50,000 million
:48:33. > :48:38.It's all very well to spend the money, but we've got to spend
:48:39. > :48:43.So I think there will have to be some link.
:48:44. > :48:45.If we were linking this tax with the health spending,
:48:46. > :48:48.it's got to be linked somehow to the economy as well
:48:49. > :48:52.OK, alongside the financial strain on the NHS, there's a huge
:48:53. > :48:54.problem with staffing, both the Lib Dems and
:48:55. > :48:57.the British Medical Association are warning that Brexit
:48:58. > :49:04.Here's Dr Jeeves Wijesuriya, who is chairman of the junior doctor's
:49:05. > :49:09.We've done a recent survey of EU doctors that are working
:49:10. > :49:13.here in the UK, and the implications of Brexit are absolutely huge.
:49:14. > :49:17.Four in ten EU-trained doctors feel that they will have to leave
:49:18. > :49:20.the health service and will leave working in this country
:49:21. > :49:27.because of the possible implications of Brexit.
:49:28. > :49:34.He was making the point that there is a staffing crisis at the moment.
:49:35. > :49:41.And he says this is only going to get potentially much worse if this
:49:42. > :49:43.situation with EU nationals isn't sorted?
:49:44. > :49:47.I have made this point are ready, in fact I raised it with the Health
:49:48. > :49:51.Secretary in the Commons, and the solution to this is to reassure sent
:49:52. > :49:56.to EU nationals are currently work in the health service or social care
:49:57. > :50:00.that they will be able to save. Again, very just satisfactory answer
:50:01. > :50:03.from the Health Secretary. They need to make this a priority once
:50:04. > :50:08.negotiations start. I think Ben is right, but whether
:50:09. > :50:12.Government's also right is that we can't agree to that until we have a
:50:13. > :50:21.reciprocal arrangement with what's hanging with our guys across Europe.
:50:22. > :50:26.Otherwise we shall run out of staff. Not just in health service, it's
:50:27. > :50:30.across the whole industry. Wanted to ask you about that,
:50:31. > :50:37.because last week the Immigration Minister was suggesting that in
:50:38. > :50:40.terms of agricultural work, we could be up skilling native workers to do
:50:41. > :50:45.that. Is the Government likely to be banging the drum in a big way in
:50:46. > :50:48.terms of health staff? Saying we can train our own doctors and that will
:50:49. > :50:54.solve the problem? We can try, and we can do more to
:50:55. > :50:59.solve the problem. When it comes to doctors and nurses, we have a pool
:51:00. > :51:04.we can get native workers into. When it comes to picking vegetables or
:51:05. > :51:08.whatever, there isn't an massive amount of people that really want
:51:09. > :51:12.those particularly jobs are available for those particular jobs.
:51:13. > :51:18.Meat processing, factories, you name it. There's a big in my constituency
:51:19. > :51:24.where 70% of the workers are Eastern European. What we are saying and the
:51:25. > :51:29.moment is that there is enough Labour, but we've got to work very
:51:30. > :51:33.quickly. And as far as the health service is concerned, I think we
:51:34. > :51:37.have more of a chance to get more home-grown labour in there. But it's
:51:38. > :51:42.not easy, and the Government's got to be ready to move quickly.
:51:43. > :51:46.What happens if these people have already gone back?
:51:47. > :51:51.The Immigration Minister was saying to us last week that the figures
:51:52. > :51:55.don't show that. Some of the figures are up as far as September, and some
:51:56. > :51:58.as far as December. I think we're got to look through this next period
:51:59. > :52:02.and make sure that people are still coming. Barbarians and remaining is
:52:03. > :52:08.into becoming reasonably freely here. -- Bulgarians and Romanians
:52:09. > :52:15.seem to becoming reasonably freely here. Others not so much.
:52:16. > :52:23.Is this more moaning scaremongering, some people would say?
:52:24. > :52:25.No. There are fewer applications, staff shortages across the health
:52:26. > :52:33.sector. Even the president of the commission said we should settle
:52:34. > :52:37.this now, it's amoral issue. If you -- it's a moral issue. If you look
:52:38. > :52:40.at the pension liability and other at the pension liability and other
:52:41. > :52:44.issues going forward, this will not be easy. It has the potential to be
:52:45. > :52:47.a complete disaster. a complete disaster.
:52:48. > :52:51.But had to make sure it works, But had to make sure it works,
:52:52. > :52:53.because we are Brexiting, and it has to work.
:52:54. > :52:55.Some local MP's are calling for the Government to review
:52:56. > :52:57.the DVLA's practice of selling drivers details
:52:58. > :53:01.The issue was debated in the House of Commons following claims some
:53:02. > :53:03.private companies are intimidating and hounding drivers to pay fines.
:53:04. > :53:05.The DVLA only supplies details to companies
:53:06. > :53:07.which are accredited by a trade body, but Torbay MP
:53:08. > :53:10.Kevin Foster says the standards are not high enough.
:53:11. > :53:16.Barry, Hazel and Jonathan - three Torbay residents
:53:17. > :53:21.who took their battle over a parking fine to their MP.
:53:22. > :53:24.I've been issued with a ?100 fine for overstaying in the Marina
:53:25. > :53:34.I know that's not the case, because I have a ticket to prove that.
:53:35. > :53:37.I was sent a fine for missing off, apparently, the first digit
:53:38. > :53:40.I didn't put my whole registration number in.
:53:41. > :53:43.The fine was eventually reduced to 30.
:53:44. > :53:46.All three wrote at the local MP, Kevin Foster, to complain.
:53:47. > :53:48.And this week, the Tory called on the Government
:53:49. > :53:54.I think the suspicion is the cowboy clampers have become the cowboy
:53:55. > :53:59.And whilst they may wish to leave their spur marks on
:54:00. > :54:02.car parks across the country, I hope the Minister will be clear
:54:03. > :54:06.of what action will be taken to make sure they have to ride off
:54:07. > :54:13.Now, Kevin Foster has received more complaints about this car park,
:54:14. > :54:17.and Crossways in Paignton, then any other in his patch.
:54:18. > :54:26.Now that I've parked, I am entering into a legal agreement
:54:27. > :54:29.with the company which runs this car park.
:54:30. > :54:31.Now that I've parked, I am entering into a legal agreement
:54:32. > :54:34.with the company which runs this car park.
:54:35. > :54:36.I have to abide by their terms and conditions.
:54:37. > :54:47.If I don't abide by these terms and conditions -
:54:48. > :54:50.staying late for example - DVLA will send my registered
:54:51. > :54:53.details to the company which runs this car park,
:54:54. > :54:58.and then the company will issue me a fine.
:54:59. > :55:01.That's all very well if the car park's being run properly.
:55:02. > :55:05.But some MPs say they know of cases around
:55:06. > :55:08.the country where drivers are being penalised unfairly.
:55:09. > :55:10.People are duped into false charges and harassed
:55:11. > :55:13.by firms who manage, somehow, to get hold
:55:14. > :55:18.of their personal information, whether through the DVLA, or,
:55:19. > :55:21.as mentioned earlier, through other sources.
:55:22. > :55:25.But a trade body which oversees private operators says the DVLA
:55:26. > :55:28.will only pass on details to companies which have
:55:29. > :55:33.We've had a great number of members who halve applied
:55:34. > :55:37.Unfortunately, anyone who isn't willing to work within the confines
:55:38. > :55:40.of our code of practice or engage to the high standards
:55:41. > :55:45.that we require, doesn't get past the first stage.
:55:46. > :55:48.Premier Park, which runs this car park, says it's happy
:55:49. > :55:52.to meet with Mr Foster to discuss any issues.
:55:53. > :55:54.But only time will tell us if the Government
:55:55. > :56:06.will change its regulations in the sector.
:56:07. > :56:11.Ben, because you're a famous cyclist, do you have any sympathy
:56:12. > :56:16.with these motorists? I've had examples of over officious
:56:17. > :56:22.car parking agencies chasing constituents. There's balance to be
:56:23. > :56:25.struck care. You had a guy on the film there from the organisations
:56:26. > :56:32.that represents car parks that says we won't accept some of these
:56:33. > :56:36.operators into our operation. I think that's the route to go down.
:56:37. > :56:40.But people shouldn't be able to get away with breaking the law are
:56:41. > :56:46.taking up a parking space owners could use when they haven't paid for
:56:47. > :56:50.it. There's balance to be made. Is the balance correct?
:56:51. > :56:54.Not quite, they come in and I as quickly as they can, they don't get
:56:55. > :56:59.as much leeway, not as much as public car parks would. I think they
:57:00. > :57:02.need to be restricted in their ambitions, echoes they're very much,
:57:03. > :57:07.the quicker they get you, the more they can charge you. They're
:57:08. > :57:13.enormous charges people are having to pay, ridiculous fines.
:57:14. > :57:17.At the trade body enough though? Probably not, and probably not
:57:18. > :57:27.perhaps making enough noise about it. I also think perhaps, sometimes,
:57:28. > :57:36.where are the revenues going from these vast charges? Mummers Day of
:57:37. > :57:40.it's another issue, because in the end looks as if they're penalised
:57:41. > :57:42.hugely with massive fines, I think they've got a fair gripe.
:57:43. > :57:50.Time now for our regular round-up of the political week in 60 seconds.
:57:51. > :57:52.A public meeting was told about last-ditch efforts
:57:53. > :57:55.to save the only care home on the Isles of Scilly.
:57:56. > :57:59.If the home closes, elderly people face a move to the mainland.
:58:00. > :58:02.It's splitting my family, it is making them out of reach.
:58:03. > :58:07.When they need me, they need me, and I won't be there.
:58:08. > :58:10.Devon County Council's Tory leader is launching a petition to get
:58:11. > :58:13.school funding debated again in the Commons.
:58:14. > :58:16.Tory backbenchers are far from happy with the way
:58:17. > :58:21.the Government's handling this increasingly toxic issue.
:58:22. > :58:24.It would be a very poor reflection on us if standards went down
:58:25. > :58:27.simply because we're not able to supply children with the teachers
:58:28. > :58:30.they need and with the support staff they need and with
:58:31. > :58:33.And that's something that I, as a Conservative MP,
:58:34. > :58:40.There's been more concern about mobile phone coverage
:58:41. > :58:44.One MP is saying the lack of connectivity is leaving
:58:45. > :58:54.And there's plenty of anger from consumers too.
:58:55. > :58:57.Neil, I think you are the MP saying you think constituents
:58:58. > :59:00.are being left in the dark ages because of mobile phone coverage?
:59:01. > :59:05.Because we were having a debate, or I was going to have a debate
:59:06. > :59:08.when we were locked in the chamber because of the terrorist attack,
:59:09. > :59:11.but it is a case of making sure they share properly, the companies.
:59:12. > :59:17.And some are getting broadband, the most rural areas, will be
:59:18. > :59:21.I think partly it's because the companies
:59:22. > :59:25.And I know the Government doesn't want to go there,
:59:26. > :59:28.but roaming, so that you go from one company to the other.
:59:29. > :59:32.Because in some areas in the countryside, Orange or O2
:59:33. > :59:36.or the other networks will work better in certain areas.
:59:37. > :59:39.I used to travel across the continent, I could change
:59:40. > :59:43.countries and get another roaming and the phone never went.
:59:44. > :59:47.But drive into the Blackdown Hills, and your signal goes entirely.
:59:48. > :59:51.Not that Ben does that on his bicycle very often.
:59:52. > :59:57.The school funding issue, of course, very dominant this week again.
:59:58. > :00:04.And, frankly, a lot of stony-faced Conservative MPs
:00:05. > :00:08.as the Prime Minister was defending what the Government's doing.
:00:09. > :00:12.I did warn ministers a couple of years ago when they said
:00:13. > :00:14.they said they wanted to change the formula -
:00:15. > :00:16.which we all support - at the same time cutting
:00:17. > :00:21.funding to schools overall, as they are, by 7%.
:00:22. > :00:24.It's the very worst time to fiddle around with the formula,
:00:25. > :00:29.because you create more losers than you do winners,
:00:30. > :00:35.Because nobody's really happy with the thing, are they?
:00:36. > :00:38.The main thing is that we invested more in schools across the piece,
:00:39. > :00:40.so all schools were getting more money...
:00:41. > :00:44.We did have more money, because we were running,
:00:45. > :00:46.until the financial crash, we had the long this period
:00:47. > :00:47.of sustained growth, noninflationary growth,
:00:48. > :00:53.Yeah, but not because of the overspending, Neil,
:00:54. > :00:55.because of the global financial crash.
:00:56. > :01:01.The schools weren't complaining, the schools were getting better,
:01:02. > :01:05.attainment was getting better, and investment was going in.
:01:06. > :01:08.We've now seen the biggest cut since the 1950s in our schools,
:01:09. > :01:14.and this lot are doing nothing about it.
:01:15. > :01:16.Neil, are you as cross as many of your colleagues?
:01:17. > :01:19.Pretty well, because I think it's a case of more money and some
:01:20. > :01:23.The trouble is partly one of the problems is the Government's
:01:24. > :01:25.been to prescriptive or the county and how we spend it
:01:26. > :01:29.So it's combination assembly that is, because we make sure
:01:30. > :01:32.at the next generation is better educated than we were and so on.
:01:33. > :01:35.Is the Government going to get out of this hole, do you think?
:01:36. > :01:37.I would have thought that if we upped the temperature,
:01:38. > :01:39.we would get something out of the Government.
:01:40. > :01:42.It doesn't have a very big majority, and think perhaps
:01:43. > :01:49.can see you nodding in agreement but we don't have any more time! Thank
:01:50. > :01:55.you both for coming in, Andrew, back to you.
:01:56. > :02:12.So yesterday the European Union celebrated its 60th birthday
:02:13. > :02:15.at a party in Rome, the city where the founding document
:02:16. > :02:19.Leaders of 27 EU countries were there to mark the occasion -
:02:20. > :02:21.overshadowing it, though, the continued terrorist threat,
:02:22. > :02:24.And on Wednesday Theresa May, who wasn't in Rome yesterday,
:02:25. > :02:25.will trigger Article 50, formally starting
:02:26. > :02:29.The President of the European Council, Donald Tusk,
:02:30. > :02:35.made an appeal for unity at the gathering.
:02:36. > :02:40.Today in Rome, we are renewing the unique alliance of free nations
:02:41. > :02:48.that was initiated 60 years ago by our great predecessors.
:02:49. > :02:51.At that time, they did not discuss multiple speeds,
:02:52. > :02:55.they did not devise exits, but despite all the tragic
:02:56. > :02:57.circumstances of the recent history they placed all their faith
:02:58. > :03:17.Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that has the Council of ministers, and on
:03:18. > :03:21.that council where every member of the EU sits he is an important
:03:22. > :03:25.figure in what is now about to happen. We have got to negotiate our
:03:26. > :03:31.divorce terms, we've got to agree a new free trade deal, new
:03:32. > :03:35.crime-fighting arrangements, we've got to repatriate 50 international
:03:36. > :03:40.trade agreements, and all of that has to be ratified within two years,
:03:41. > :03:47.by 27 other countries. Can that really happen?! I don't think it is
:03:48. > :03:50.inconceivable because it is in the interests of those 27 EU member
:03:51. > :03:54.states to try and negotiate a deal that we can all live with, because
:03:55. > :03:59.that would be preferable to Britain crashing out within two years. But I
:04:00. > :04:02.think this is why Labour's position is becoming increasingly incoherent.
:04:03. > :04:08.Keir Starmer has briefed today that he will be making a speech tomorrow
:04:09. > :04:11.setting out six conditions which he wants the deal to meet, otherwise
:04:12. > :04:29.Labour won't vote for it, but if Labour doesn't vote for it that
:04:30. > :04:33.doesn't mean we will be able to negotiate an extension, that would
:04:34. > :04:35.be incredibly difficult and require the consent of each of the 27 member
:04:36. > :04:38.states, so if Labour votes against it we will just crash out, it is
:04:39. > :04:41.effectively Labour saying no deal is better than a poor deal, which is
:04:42. > :04:43.not supposed to be their position. Labour's position may be incoherent
:04:44. > :04:45.but I was not asking about their position, I was asking about the
:04:46. > :04:48.Government's position. The man heading the Badila said he wants it
:04:49. > :04:50.ready by October next year so that it can go through the ratification
:04:51. > :04:54.process, people looking at this would think it is Mission:
:04:55. > :04:59.Impossible. It seems impossible to me to be done in that time. The fact
:05:00. > :05:04.that it is 27 countries, the whole of the European Parliament as well,
:05:05. > :05:09.there will be too many people throbbing spanners in the works and
:05:10. > :05:14.quite rightly. We have embarked on something that is truly terrible and
:05:15. > :05:19.disastrous, and the imagery we can have of those 27 countries
:05:20. > :05:22.celebrating together 60 years of the most extraordinary successful
:05:23. > :05:29.movement for peace, for shared European values, and others not
:05:30. > :05:33.there... We were not there at the start either, and we are not there
:05:34. > :05:39.now! And we have been bad partners while we were inside, but now that
:05:40. > :05:45.we are leaving... They did not look like it was a birthday party to me!
:05:46. > :05:51.I think it was, there was a sense of renewal, Europe exists as a place
:05:52. > :05:54.envied in the world for its values, for its peacefulness, that is why
:05:55. > :06:00.people flocked to its borders, that is why they come here. Can you look
:06:01. > :06:05.at the agenda that faces the UK Government and EU 27, is it not
:06:06. > :06:12.possible, in fact even likely, that as the process comes to an end they
:06:13. > :06:16.will have to agree on a number of areas of transitional arrangements?
:06:17. > :06:20.I think they will and they will have to agree that soon, I would not be
:06:21. > :06:23.surprised if sometime soon there is an understanding is not a formal
:06:24. > :06:28.decision that this is a process that will extend over something closer to
:06:29. > :06:32.buy or seven than two years. On Wednesday article 50 will be filed
:06:33. > :06:35.and there will be lots of excitement and hubbub but nothing concrete can
:06:36. > :06:39.happen for a while. Elections in France in May, elections in Germany
:06:40. > :06:52.which could really result in a change of Government... That is the
:06:53. > :06:55.big change, Mrs Merkel might not be there by October. And who foresaw
:06:56. > :06:57.that a few months ago? So you might be into 28 Dean before you are into
:06:58. > :07:00.the substantive discussions about how much market access or regulatory
:07:01. > :07:03.observance. I cannot see it being completed in two years. I could see,
:07:04. > :07:07.if negotiations are not too acrimonious, that transitional
:07:08. > :07:10.agreement taking place. Let's look at the timetable again. The council
:07:11. > :07:14.doesn't meet until the end of April, it meets in the middle of the French
:07:15. > :07:17.elections, the first round will have taken place, they will need a second
:07:18. > :07:24.round so not much can happen. President Hollande will be
:07:25. > :07:29.representing France, then the new French government, if it is Marine
:07:30. > :07:33.le Pen all bets are off, but even if it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a
:07:34. > :07:37.party, he will not have a majority, the French will take a long while to
:07:38. > :07:42.sort out themselves. Then it is summer, we are off to the Cote
:07:43. > :07:45.d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian elite, then we come back from that
:07:46. > :07:51.and the Germans are in an election, it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no
:07:52. > :08:04.longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr Schultz, he may have to try to form
:08:05. > :08:07.a difficult green red coalition, that would take a while. Before you
:08:08. > :08:10.know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and no substance has taken place, yet we
:08:11. > :08:13.are then less than a year before this has to be decided. It is a big
:08:14. > :08:15.task and I'm sure Jana is right that there will be transitional
:08:16. > :08:19.arrangements and not everything will be concluded in that two year
:08:20. > :08:23.timetable, but in some respects what you have described helps those of us
:08:24. > :08:26.on the Eurosceptic site because it means they cannot really be a
:08:27. > :08:30.meaningful parliamentary vote on the terms of the deal because nothing is
:08:31. > :08:34.going to be agreed quickly enough for them to be able to go back and
:08:35. > :08:38.agree something else if Parliament rejects it, so when the Government
:08:39. > :08:42.eventually have something ready to bring before Parliament it will be a
:08:43. > :08:47.take it or leave it boat. How extraordinary that people who have
:08:48. > :08:50.campaigned. Indeed give us our country back and say, isn't it
:08:51. > :08:54.wonderful, we won't have a meaningful boat for our
:08:55. > :08:59.parliamentarians of the most important... We don't know what the
:09:00. > :09:02.negotiation, the package is, day by day we see more and more complicated
:09:03. > :09:06.areas nobody ever thought about, nobody mentioned during the
:09:07. > :09:12.campaign, all of which has to be resolved and the European Council
:09:13. > :09:17.and the negotiators say nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
:09:18. > :09:23.You lead us into a catastrophe. There will be plenty of opportunity
:09:24. > :09:25.for Parliament to have its say following the introduction of the
:09:26. > :09:29.Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if there will be no Parliamentary time
:09:30. > :09:33.devoted. The final package is what counts. We have two years to blog
:09:34. > :09:44.about this! There was a big Proview -- pro-EU
:09:45. > :09:49.march yesterday... I was there! Polly Toynbee was there, down to
:09:50. > :09:54.Parliament Square, lots of people there marching in favour of the
:09:55. > :09:59.European Union. We can see the EU flags there on flags, lots of
:10:00. > :10:08.national flags as well, the British one. Polly, is it the aim of people
:10:09. > :10:13.like you still to stop Brexit, or to soften Brexit? I think the aim is
:10:14. > :10:18.for the best you can possibly do to limit the damage. Of course, if it
:10:19. > :10:22.happens that once people have had a chance to see how much they were
:10:23. > :10:26.lied to during the campaign and how dreadful the deal is likely to be,
:10:27. > :10:29.if it happens that enough people in the population have changed their
:10:30. > :10:35.minds, then maybe... There is no sign up yet. But we have not even
:10:36. > :10:39.begun, people have not begun to confront what it is going to mean.
:10:40. > :10:44.Wait and see. I think it is just being as close as we can. Is that
:10:45. > :10:49.credible, do you think, to stop it or to ameliorate it in terms of the
:10:50. > :10:54.Remainers? I think it is far more credible to try and stop it but even
:10:55. > :10:57.then the scope is limited. It is fairly apparent Theresa May's
:10:58. > :11:16.interpretation of the referendum is the country wants an end to free
:11:17. > :11:19.movement, there is probably no way of doing that inside the single
:11:20. > :11:22.market. She also wants external trade deals, no way of doing that
:11:23. > :11:25.outside the customs unit, said the only night you can depend if you are
:11:26. > :11:27.pro-European is, let's not leave without any trade pact, at least
:11:28. > :11:30.let's meet Canada and have a formalised trade agreement. The idea
:11:31. > :11:33.of ace -- of a very soft exit is gone now because the public really
:11:34. > :11:35.did want an end to free movement and the Government really does want
:11:36. > :11:42.external trade deals. It depends what changes in Europe. I think the
:11:43. > :11:46.momentum behind the Remoaning movement will move away. One of the
:11:47. > :11:50.banners I saw being held up yesterday by a young boy on the news
:11:51. > :11:55.was, don't put my daddy on a boat. It gets a lot of its moral force
:11:56. > :12:00.from the uncertainty surrounding the fate of EU nationals here and our
:12:01. > :12:04.resident in the remainder of the EU and I think David Lidington is right
:12:05. > :12:07.that it will be concluded quite quickly once negotiations start and
:12:08. > :12:11.that will take a lot of the heat and momentum out of the remaining
:12:12. > :12:17.movement. Why didn't Theresa May allow that amendment that said, we
:12:18. > :12:20.will do that, as an act of generosity, we will say, of course
:12:21. > :12:25.those European citizens here are welcome to stay? It would have been
:12:26. > :12:29.such a good opening move in the negotiations, instead of which she
:12:30. > :12:35.blocked it. It does not augur well. I have interviewed many Tories about
:12:36. > :12:42.this and put that point to them but they often say the Prime minister's
:12:43. > :12:45.job is to look after UK citizen in the EU... Bargaining chips, I think
:12:46. > :12:50.you have to be generous and you have to wish you people in Spain and
:12:51. > :12:53.everywhere else where there are British citizens would have
:12:54. > :12:56.responded. The British Government did try and raise that with their EU
:12:57. > :13:00.counterparts and were told, we cannot begin to talk about that
:13:01. > :13:04.until article 50 has been triggered. Next week we will be able to talk
:13:05. > :13:08.about it. How generous it would have been, we would have started on a
:13:09. > :13:13.better note. Didn't happen, we will see what happens next with EU
:13:14. > :13:17.citizens. That is it for today, the Daily Politics will be back tomorrow
:13:18. > :13:20.at midday and every day next week on BBC Two as always.
:13:21. > :13:22.And there's also a Question Time special live tomorrow
:13:23. > :13:23.night from Birmingham - with guests including
:13:24. > :13:25.the Brexit Secretary David Davis, Labour's Keir Starmer,
:13:26. > :13:28.former Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the SNP's Alex Salmond -
:13:29. > :13:34.I'll be back next week at 11am here on BBC One.
:13:35. > :13:37.Until then, remember - if it's Sunday, it's